Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Mark H, Lincoln, Nebraska — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 15:14:48 GMT

This collider could be huge for the future of science and mankind in general. These scenarios are so improbably that the chance of them happening is basically zero. I could theoretically fall through the chair Im sitting on right now but I won't. Stop prolonging the production of this awesome piece of technology and let scientists figure out how the universe works.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Martin, Orlando — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 15:32:07 GMT

The article was quite thorough. The cosmic ray argument pretty much negates any doomsday scenerio. I'd also like to point out that any particles created by the LHC will most likely be traveling at relativistic speeds and are, therefor, no more likely to be caught by Earth's gravity than those generated by cosmic rays. Any particles that are created that are stable would exit the reactor and be well into outer space in the first second of their existence.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Gordon, Charleston, SC — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 15:38:39 GMT

"Could quarks recombine into "strangelets" that would turn the whole Earth into one big lump of exotic matter?"

Alan, you gotta love 'em. Think of it this way. Maybe these quarks, "quirks" could turn into strangelets, and turn themselves into something useful. That would be very exotic, to say the least.

These people are totally off the wall. When will our court system learn to not give these "people" a platform to spit out their garbage, and stand in the way of good science, that will expland our knowledge for the betterment of life on Earth. Including theirs.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

GWB — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 15:40:23 GMT

My opinion is that black holes need forces that pull the graviton (Some call it a higgs field) from both dimensions to maintain stability. (In other words, 2 stars or galaxies in the same space in separate dimensions cause the field to stretch infinately thin, and tear from both dimensions) as well as matter transfer that must be maintained in order to stay open.

So in short, I don't think anyone understands the kind of power it would take to actually make a doomsday scenario, but it is certain that we will never generate that kind of power in our lifetimes.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

John Hoe, El Paso, TX — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 16:01:38 GMT

Next, oceanic life will be singing "Thanks for the fish."

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Wayne — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 16:05:12 GMT

Who really knows huh. Perhaps they'll be able to turn it on in December 2012...

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

David, Grand Junction, CO — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 16:26:15 GMT

Given my exhaustive reading on the subject, it is hard not to see both sides of the argument. However, I have one additional point that perhaps should tip the balance. What if, given the big space theory, two heavy elements haven't collided just exactly right (and nearby) to produce some of the nasty forms of matter that are possible. Even with the vast time scales of the universe and vast number of particles moving around at cosmic velocities, it is still very possible that nothing has hit just right yet or if it has then wasn't subsequently captured by Earth's gravity. Think of the focus required, man. Yet here we are focusing these particles very precisely in a little corner of the French/Swiss countryside. This is human vanity and recklessness at its finest.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Mike, Youngstown — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 16:34:04 GMT

Could we, just for a moment, please stop being afraid of every little thing we don't fully understand? This is science, not science fiction. Let's learn what there is before we hide under our beds from it.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Rick Nebel — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 16:34:41 GMT

I think this is symptomatic of a lot of the things that are wrong with science. Science has become so hog-tied by the safety/security/bureaucracy that it is almost impossible to get anything done. As a result, the overhead rates at National Laboratories are so high that you have 2-3 nontechnical people for every technical person who actually does something useful in the laboratory. These unfunded mandates such as those proposed by Wagner and Sancho, have largely killed small and intermediate scale experimental science at the National labs. You just can't afford it anymore.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Mike, NL, CT — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 16:37:17 GMT

Discovery is not made with a consevative mind, if we fear the unknown then we are doomed to begin with. Blast away!

Personally I think that this is a great achievement and look forward to all of its outputs, success or failure.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

jamie williams, denham springs, louisiana — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 16:44:09 GMT

anyone here heard of John Titor? He spoke about CERN and mini-blackholes a few years back. look it up. He was right on the money. kinda weird. ... You can go to JohnTitor.com to check out all the stuff that he said about CERN and mini-blackholes.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

David Orlando, Lake Winola, PA — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 16:52:20 GMT

As our primitive ancestors came out of the cave in the rain, we must learn to respect the lightning and not fear it... Time will tell. As a member of the child race known as humanity, I share the concerns of these prophets of doom, however the insatiable need to increase our knowledge of the universe (macro as well as micro) will not be satisfied until we too have been burned by the gift of Prometheus... Fire the LHC up and let's find out the only way we learn.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Marvin Lipford, Port Charlotte FL — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:10:02 GMT

Er, how many cosmic ray interactions with center of mass energies in the 28 TEV range have occured near the surface of the earth in the last few billion years?

How does this number correspond to the numbers of such interactions over the operational life of the LHC?

Remember, most ultra-high energy cosmic rays interact high in the atmosphere and disipate their energy "harmlessly".

I doubt seriously if any appreciable number of 14 TEV cosmic rays have made it into the Earth and released 28 TEV AT REST, so I would guess that Nature hasn't done this experiment very often since the first few microseconds of the universe.

Perhaps AGN events are created by technological civilizations who successfully built LHC machines.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

ho ho ho from cocomo — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:11:23 GMT

it aint nothing but money

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Robert Landau, Atlanta GA — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:33:54 GMT

This is the possibly the dumbest lawsuit I have ever heard, I'm not familiar with strangelets or magnetic monopoles, though both of those seem like pretty crackpot theories. But the idea that an artificial black hole could persist for more than a few micro-seconds is absurd. You would need a mass a million (or trillion) times greater than will ever go through any particle accelerator in order to create a stable black whole.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Barry Cohen, Los Angeles — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:35:22 GMT

Have no fear... Any catastrophic consequences would have been (or will be)negated by Capt. Kirk and Mr. Spock after being slingshotted back in time saving the earth. All I am saying is it sometimes takes scientific fiction to conquor other scientific fictions. But what do I know, I am planning an ocean cruise to Mexico and worry about falling over earths edge near Cancun.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Very Concerned — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:38:27 GMT

This is Completely Stupid of them to do this , No one has ever done this b4 so how could they say things wont go bad , Someone stop these People from doing this , What does it prove and how will it help our day to day living by testing this , Please God someone stop these people.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Dave, Crystal Lake, IL — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:39:12 GMT

If I am going to die I would like to do so by being swallowed up by a black hole. Let the scientists have their experiment.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Max, Rapid City, SD — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:41:49 GMT

Lets leave the physics to the physicists, not a couple of nut jobs with no credentials in high energy physics. I hope the legal systems slaps this law suit down for the rubbish that it is.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

RICHARD AUSTIN, TEXAS — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:42:39 GMT

Well, I certainly don't have enough of a background to say whether the claim has merit. However, if there is even a probability of a doomsday scenario, there should be a full investigation on the possibilities. I understand how exciting the answers to such age-old questions can be if the experiment works, however, the truth is, we still don't know enough about how the universe works to say with certainty that a doomsday scenario would not come into play.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Jeff Bryan, San Antonio, TX — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:59:15 GMT

Do you even bother to mention any academic credentials for Wagner and Sancho? Are they lay people or are they informed? This isn't like criticizing the first airplane, whether it flew or not there were no potential devastating effects on the whole planter. This is a big unknown that may create new matter or a big bang that eliminates us. Its an EXPERIMENT. The very nature of the word means there can be unknown results. Also are they looking to find God or eliminate God? My GUT tells me that this is too dangerous just to find a GUT.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Stephan Papa, Santa Cruz, CA — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:04:47 GMT

So what!

If I was a betting man, I'd rather buy a lottery ticket.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Marc Junod, Clarkston, MI — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:04:55 GMT

I look forward to seeing what they will discover when this comes on line. I would trust that every activation of the LHC will be closely monitored by so many eyes and so many devices that anything even remotely unexpected would be shut down immedidately. I hope we find solutions to problems that we don't even yet know exist. Thats the point of science right? Gather more information to explain what we don't know and confirm what we think we know already. This could open the door to solving the energy crisis of today. I say let them at least try. There are minds much more brilliant than ours out there trying to answer questions we can't even comprehend. Fear is a great excuse for not moving forward.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

S Pearson, the Dakotas — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:05:09 GMT

Too late. Even before it has finished, the Large Hadron Collider has created the strange moron, which threatens to turn every other thing on this planet into strange morons in a runaway chain reaction.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Caleb J. Creel, Lantana, TX — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:12:16 GMT

Oh, please. Let's bear in mind that even Albert Einstein insisted in a letter to President Eisenhower that testing of a fusion device had the potential to cause a flash-fire in the Earth's atmosphere and trigger a nuclear chain reaction in the world's oceans. This guy, Paul Dixon, is DEFINITELY a far cry from Albert Einstein (he's a professor of psychology, for God's sake!)... I say the judges should bow to the professional opinion of today's leading expert in the field - put the question to Stephen Hawking and see if he thinks there is any danger.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

JC some were in Texas — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:12:41 GMT

Some physicists worry over a cosmic catastrophe! Runaway reaction to atom particles by the set off of the first atom bomb (December 2 1942).

My question is this: Should a handful of men have the say-so for all of humanity?

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

O. Boy, Toronto, OH — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:17:35 GMT

It doesn’t matter what the outcome of the Courts is, they didn’t build this thing to be shut down by unknown theories.

Just because they don’t understand, or haven’t fully imagined the actual events that occurred during the big bang, doesn’t mean they can’t artificially re-create the events again for another universe to be created which will pause time in this universe for as long as that universe exists. Who are we to stop another whole universe from being created? As long as that universe isn’t completely flat and thus never-ending, then we should continue with our time when that universe has ended. Our scientists probably won’t even know what happened.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Robert, Dallas,TX — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:18:44 GMT

I hope this goes to court, all you need is reasonable doubt to stop this from happening. If there is even a chance that this test and this LHC can harm the planet then it needs to be scrapped A.S.A.P!! Our planet is in enough trouble as it is.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Brendan Brannen, Kirkland, Wash. — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:20:37 GMT

I LOVE it when people argue that such worries are "just science fiction". Science fiction, as you may have noticed, has a tendency to become science fact. NOT that I'm against such experiments, but performing due dilligence in checking for safety certainly doesn't seem un reasonable either...

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

M, Upland, CA — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:23:44 GMT

The only certainties of black holes persisting in any dimension are those that lie in the mind. (Ha ha.)

Regadless, I can understand the rationale of the doomsayers. Think of nuclear energy. The promise was we could utilize nuclear power to replace oil to power turbines for electricity. Reality was, however, there was waste to deal with and where to put it. . .(I also heard about this place called...what was it...oh, yeah, Chernobyl.)

Not the same scenario here, but the idea is the same: Merely the anticipation of progress for all through science doesn't mean we should not be careful and think things through.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Evan, Mishawaka, IN — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:25:33 GMT

Can anyone PROVE that tomorrow, the carbon dioxide you exhale will not provide the final impetus, at just the right moment and in just the right spot, that tips the Earth over the brink into a runaway greenhouse effect and extinguishes all life on the planet forever?

This is about as plausible as the doomsday scenarios being proposed here.

Everybody stop breathing!

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Robert Minneman, Euless, Texas — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:35:51 GMT

All I have to say is that there are some damn ignorant people out there, ready to believe that a super collider will be able to spontaneously create enough mass and energy to destroy the earth.

e=mc^2 folks, remember that... If they got 100% energy to mass conversion I think they MIGHT be able to produce one small turd, possibly large enough to exchange for the one in your tiny, vacuous, fearful craniums.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Rod, OK — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:38:26 GMT

Hey. Why don't we stop drug testing too? It's tied to evolution and that is a danger to our society's morals. Let's stop learning and trying new things. I'm pretty confident that the scientists running the "Experiment" are not the experts with which we should be consulting. We need to get the court involved and allow people who are less educated on the matter to toss their ring into the hat.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Steve, Orange, Calif — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:42:18 GMT

Somebody explain something simple: What jurisdiction does the US District Court in Hawaii have over CERN?

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

LINDA NERI — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:45:15 GMT

THE CONCERN IS WE AS THE PEOPLE HAVE A SAY IN WHAT HAPPENS TO US. IF THERE IS ANY POTENTIAL OF BEING BLOWN UP IT'S NOT UP TO THEM TO DECIDE TIO FIRE IT UP. I'M SURE THEY WOULD BE SAFE. SO I BELIEVE I HAVE A RIGHT TO VOTE NO ON THIS ONE.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Dimento Graven, Texas — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:46:33 GMT

Y'know this sounds like the same sort of stupid idiotic crap you'd hear back in the early ages of the Steam Engine.

Do you know that there were "doom sayers" that attempted to limit speed of locomotives to 40 miles per hour because they believed that if the human body accelerated beyond 50 miles per hour that body would die?

Mini-black holes... Taking into account "Hawking Radiation" (go look it up), the probability of a "micro" black hole lasting longer than a few nano-seconds is beyond remote, also note as mentioned by someone previously, this planet has been getting blasted by high energy gama rays for --> BILLIONS <-- of years.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Tom Ryan, Wichita, KS — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:49:39 GMT

The doomsday prediction of early particle accelerators was that they would create anti-matter that would destroy the earth. I don't know about you, but I haven't been annihilated and converted into pure energy. The micro black holes that might be generated would be so short lived and of so little mass that they could not create a stable black hole that will swallow up the earth. Can you imagine the amount of energy rquired to convert the earth into a mass of exotic matter? This is a silly lawsuit that will certainly be dismissed. Even after the collider has beeen up and running for years, these two nay sayers will be predicting the end of the world in a vain attempt to gain yet another 15 minutes of fame. I think, perhaps, that Wagner and Sancho have been watching too many episodes of "The Outer Limits" re-runs.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

S.B. Stein E.B. NJ — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:54:29 GMT

I can't imagine why these people would want it to stop. Maybe these people have fear of the unknown and therefore fear this kind of experimentation. Besides, if there was really a black hole that swollows the planet, then I don't think we would really be alert enough to feel the pain.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

John Voight, Brooklyn, NY — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:55:19 GMT

all of you watch too much sci-fi. get off the internet and get a job! do something with yourself!

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

bob mi. — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:56:02 GMT

safe or not---fail or not---- someone has made a ton of money building it, and tons more by running it.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Lana — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:56:47 GMT

Men of science once scoffed at those who believed the earth was round, too. As is the nature of science (as our puny, human brains comprehend it,) we shall see...

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Dave, Stillwater OK — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:57:04 GMT

Don't go outside! Don't touch your computer! Don't eat anything that has been genetically modified! Don't watch TV! Don't go to school! Don't go swimming! Don't eat organic (or conventional) produce! Stay away from fish, bacon, eggs, raw and pateurized milk! Do not use prescription medications! Never talk to strangers! Chewing gum is dangerous! All of these things pose threats to your health and/or life! The risks associated with these activities and others are much greater than any risk posed by the LHC. Let's be realistic: as humans, we overweight very small probabilities of adverse outcomes, especially when they involve something that we individually do not understand. When respectable physicists say these possibilities are almost impossible (but not completely impossible), I honestly think we should give them the benefit of the doubt. You do things everyday that are more likely to get you killed than anything these physicists are planning to do in the LHC. This is a very controlled experiment, and should be allowed to proceed. There are no ethical issues of any appreciable magnitude. The probabilities of any of these outlandish outcomes are so small as to be unmeasurable and are completely negligible! About as negligible as the probability that the Boogey Man will come out of your closest tonight and feed on your fear! These fools may get their restraining order and slow things down at the LHC just because of the fearful nature of the human race, but ultimately the experiment will go forward exactly as planned. There will be no resultant earth gobbling black holes, no strangelets, and no magnetic monopoles! The weatherman says there is no chance of rain, so you plan a picnic! Know that the weatherman is less forthcoming than the physicists, who actually tell us that there is some negligible probability of an adverse outcome that could ruin our human parade. Let's go on with our lives and let physicists do the things that physicists do! I'll be an economist! You be a dentist! He'll be a doctor! She'll be a lawyer! They'll be preachers! The biologists will do their thing! The meteorologist will make the weather forecast, and the garbage collector will empty our trash cans regularly! Perrsonally, I am interested to see whatever the results of the LHC experiments might be.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Alan Boyle — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:58:46 GMT

Jeff, that's a good point about the credentials. Here are some snippets from the affidavits:

On Walter Wagner: "I am a nuclear physicist with extensive training in the field...." He has a B.S. in biological sciences with physics minor (1972), graduate degree in law (1978). "Worked extensively in cosmic radiation research" at UC Berkeley (1973). "Began employment as a federal nuclear safety officer" at the VA in 1979, is currently retired from federal employment. Taught high-school science and math after that retirement but is now retired from teaching as well.

As I mentioned in the article, Wagner has been involved with legal action against RHIC that went nowhere. Some years ago, I wrote about Wagner's campaign against uranium-glazed ceramics, and you might find that story interesting:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3077213/

Wagner also sent me an e-mail relating to the recent polonium-poisoning controversy:

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/
archive/2006/12/27/23008.aspx

I don't really know Sancho ... Wagner says Sancho is a Spanish citizen who is a permanent resident of the U.S. and lives in Hawaii. Here's some further info from his affidavit:

"I am a System Scientist specialized in Cosmology and Time Theory. I obtained my undergraduate degree at Barcelona University, Barcelona, Spain. I followed with my post-graduate studies at Columbia University, New York and developed a career as a Writer on scientific themes in Spain."

Based on the affidavit, I would characterize Sancho as a science writer. He does have a Web site called http://www.unificationtheory.com/ ... the material there looks like gobbledygook to me. To be fair, a highly technical paper from, say, Stephen Hawking might have a bit of what looks like gobbledygook to me as well.

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0803/0803.1663v1.pdf

However, I'm pretty sure Hawking would consider Sancho's work to be gobbledygook as well.

Sancho doesn't appear to have a high opinion of Hawking, either. In this forum, a poster who gave the name "Luis Sancho" calls Hawking a "ga-ga guy" and part of the "biggest terrorist team of human history":

http://www.physforum.com/index.php?
act=Print&client=printer&f=9&t=2870

I hope this background helps to shed more light on the credentials question....

Steve, as to why the suit was filed in Hawaii ... that's where the plaintiffs live, but I'm betting the case will be moved to, say, Washington. That is, if it gets that far.

Now, as to how it could be that the federal court could possibly have jurisdiction over CERN: Frankly, I don't see it. But I guess the plaintiffs must have felt there's no harm in trying. The plaintiffs argue that the U.S. entities that are participating in the LHC project should go through an environmental impact process that addresses the blowing-up-the-world issue. But as Fermilab's Judy Jackson noted, the U.S. entities have been following the environmental rules for their own activities. The environmental impact at CERN has been handled through European regulations, as noted on the Web page I linked to:

http://askanexpert.web.cern.ch/AskAnExpert/en/Accelerators/LHCenvironment-en.html

"CERN’s guidelines for the protection of the environment and personnel comply with the Swiss and the French National Legislations and with the European Council Directive 96/29/EURATOM."

...... Best, Alan

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Mike S, St. Louis, MO — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:59:01 GMT

So the LHC produces a black hole that destroys the earth. So what! Is that really a bad thing considering what we humans have done to the planet so far.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Joe Holland, Chalfont PA — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:01:13 GMT

At least we'll never know if does happen. Or, maybe it already did happen, and this is what happens at the singularity.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Pander, Picayune, MS — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:01:45 GMT

It's clear that we need to bring in experts, good experts with high-level credentials in theoretical physics. Experts who can navigate the hazards the LHC may provide, skilled at managing as-of-yet unknown scenarios of varying degrees of danger.

We need Dr. Gordon Freeman in charge of this project.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Jay Otterstein — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:03:41 GMT

Perhaps the Big bang was caused by a civilization earily similar to ours, in the area of 13 billion years ago that built it's own LHC. And the big bang that created their universe was made by a civilization in a nother universe 13 some odd billion years prior to that, who also built an LHC, and their big bang...

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

JG, Denver, Colorado — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:05:59 GMT

BEST COMMENTS SO FAR-

"Next thing you know marine life will start singing "thanks for the fish""- John Hoe, El Paso, TX

"Too late. Even before it has finished, the Large Hadron Collider has created the strange moron, which threatens to turn every other thing on this planet into strange morons in a runaway chain reaction."-
S Pearson, the Dakotas

In Richard Rhodes "The Making of the Atomic Bomb", he talks about just before the Trinity test some of the physicists (with their odd sense of humor)had a mock bet on whether or not the explosion would burn off the earth's atmosphere. Of course they only discussed the bet with some of the non-technical staff around...Now the physicists don't even get to have that fun!

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Rick — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:12:40 GMT

The sky is falling!

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Quit Whining — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:12:51 GMT

Doomsday, nuclear, witches...if you don't know it quit fearing it, and if you can't go hide under a bed and quit complaining...if doomsday comes at least all the whining will stop as well. Fire it up.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Gatekeeper, St. Augustine, FL — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:16:40 GMT

Here we go again. The world is flat, and if man was meant to fly, he would have been born with wings. I look forward to the day I can teleport from location to location instead of spending hours or days traveling. Let's move forward and try to understand how this universe really works.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

VT LA CA. — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:17:53 GMT

Good old Chris got his info concerning the true shape of the earth from the bible, maybee we need to look there for some answers

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Luke, Worcester, MA — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:18:16 GMT

Human's love doomsday... some enough to take it to court. Or possibly bet their entire lifesavings on a horse in fear of Nostradamus being right. Well there is no doomsday. But I do see a very good holywood B movie plot here.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

The Dr, New York, Ny — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:18:37 GMT

Ha ha. It's so funny. Most of you Texans commenting on this seem to think that scientists are out to destroy the earth and god. With one of you in the White House, no wonder the US now lags behind just about every other advanced nation in every field of research. Hurrah Ignorance and Blind Faith!

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Ed Long — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:22:15 GMT

Maybe Doomsday is a name for the day when man sees God and understands "how everything works". The Bible says, "Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." Exodus 33:20 KJV

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Bill — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:28:47 GMT

Ha... Ever play Half-Life?

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

LarryC — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:31:36 GMT

You have to love the legal industry! They employ people to bring lawsuits over every conceivable thing. These go to courts. Lawyers make huge amounts of money. It is the ultimate money industry!

The law suit has nothing to do with science, the LHC, logic, potential harm to the earth or anything. It is 100% to do with putting more money in the pockets of the lawyers, judges, attorneys etc.

By the way, that money is ripped from your (and my) pocket in the form of excessive taxes, because the project now costs a lot more! And it takes longer. It is time that the legal profession was shunned. It will be the total downfall of mankind. The leagl system is the ultimate black hole and development will stop and we will all be sucked into oblivion, created by lawyers and lawsuits.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Joey ,Simi Valley, CA — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:33:24 GMT

Not only will this experiment destroy humanity but it will also tear a hole in the fabric of space, creating a repeating time loop where you (Humans) are condemed to repeat this mistake for eternity.
All other intelligent life forms (that have ever existed) observe the time loop for both entertainment educational purposes.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

MC Hawking Gloucester Massachusetts — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:36:32 GMT

Doomsday! Get my gun!

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Justin M, Atlanta GA — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:38:03 GMT

It's not like we'd know something went horribly wrong, anyway. We'd all be vaporized in an instant. Fire it up, I say.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Joe, Cary, NC — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:38:35 GMT

Without education, we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously. -- G.K. Chesterton

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

willie dee, Out There SC — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:38:42 GMT

"Too late. Even before it has finished, the Large Hadron Collider has created the strange moron, which threatens to turn every other thing on this planet into strange morons in a runaway chain reaction."

ROFL!! Wow, thanks for the best laugh that I've had in quite sometime. I think I broke rib or two on that one!
We're running the risk of a moron meltdown here.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Gary, Atlanta — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:40:28 GMT

Well, we can at least all take solace in the fact that if catastrophe strikes, France will be the first to go.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Gia, London, UK — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:40:31 GMT

*sigh*

I'm off to CERN in about 10 days. My husband works there. He's a lovely guy. Kind, caring, funny, very intelligent and best of all he really, really loves me. More than that, he loves *being alive*. He has no desire to suck the Earth into a black hole or blow the whole place up or whatever it is these terrified intellectual pygmies think is going to happen.

For normal stuff about CERN, come listen to my husband's podcast www.cernpodcast.com

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Maha, Davis, CA — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:42:43 GMT

I know, let's travel back in time to our ancestors, make sure they never learn how to create fire, because gosh, look at all the damage it's done, and who needs heat anyway. Don't you like your meat raw? And, let's make sure antibiotics never get invented, because now EVERYONE in the known universe has taken so much of them, that they're rendered ineffective. I'm sure everyone prefers pain and suffering before dying anyway. And while we're at it, let's make sure the explorers of earth never discover anything outside their farm, because look at all the wars through history? Geez, ever hear of nothing ventured, nothing gained?

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Steve, Savannah GA — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:43:32 GMT

Myself being in the science field think that this has a major potential for disaster. Answering the age old questions are the driving force of science. However, if there is any uncertainty in this experiment whatsoever, it most certainly should be put under a microscope first to way all possibilities. These concepts for disaster may sound too "science fiction" for the average Joe, myself included, so when physicists warn of the potential for strangelets and black holes on our own planet, perhaps we should take a deeper look. When they fire it up and they say "whoops", i'll say told ya so as we're bieng sucked into a worm hole, cheers!

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Tim, Ft. Lauderdale, Fl. — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:44:59 GMT

I say let it rip in the cause for knowledge and scientific gain. Besides I'm overdrawn, maxxed out and ready for foreclosure, I'm rooting for the doomsday theory.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Rick, Simi Valley CA — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:45:02 GMT

All of this doomsday talk was a Discovery Channel program. These guys are basing their fears on a TV show.

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Samuel Bedraken — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:51:22 GMT

Scientists do agree that some of the doomsday scenarios are possible--though occurrance very unlikely.
Given this and the total destruction potential if a scenario occurs---it does make sense to be cautious---why not review safety?
But, really, even with CERN at its safest--is enough known to eliminate destructive potential? We are dealing with experiments on the edge of the known; unknowns of matter and space are just that.
The LHC will look for results that have not been seen before --that is its purpose. An unanticipated destructive event is not entirely ruled out; risk in any case cannot be eliminated at the edge of the unknown.
So, a conflict: continue to push into the unknown or play it safe?
I say, let's risk the doomsday scenario--better to be
wiped out by a burgeoning black hole than wallow in ignorance, right? Ha!

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Wade Whitlock, Aberdeen, MD — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:53:05 GMT

Deja Vu - all over again!

Does anyone remember the Senate hearings on the U.S. Super-sonic Transport (SST)? We were treated to PhD economists testifying on the hazards of radiation to high altitude travelers and PhD physicists laying it down on economics.

The posesssion of a PhD only says that someone has conducted a science project and defended it to a committee of like-minded people. It confers not a jot of knowledge outside the stated field. T'was once said that to gain a doctorate was to learn more and more about less and less, until you know everything there is to know about nothing at all.

Beware the use of "Dr," outside their chosen field!

Celtic Curmudgeon Strikes Again!

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Klaatu, Zeta Reticuli — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:55:05 GMT

David, in Grand Junction....very good point! Personally, even if these doomsday scenarios do occur, so what?!...we'll never know it.

Or, the aliens will finally show up and tell us "Yea! You finally did it!", take all the Christians and leave the rest of us to do some decent science.

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curio50 — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:58:20 GMT

WHAT judge or jury would be competent to undertand these kind of arguments? Perhaps the same type jury, one of whose members was quoted some time ago as saying "while we was deliberated in the back room" (: These things need to be left to physicist who know what the realities really are. Personally, I think the LHC is well worth the cost and a degree of risk as well, b/c it's this kind of research that moves$ us up a notch or two from the muck of our beginnings.

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RH — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:03:52 GMT

It's much more probable than what they're trying to prove (That the universe began from nothing, and God does not exist). They say that these things are "probabilistically zero" yet they accept the even less probable theories of evolution, etc.

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Richard Harborne, Canada — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:08:53 GMT

What a terrible thing to suggest Mike S, from St.Louis. In the grand scheme of things bipedal primates haven't inhabited Earth that long. Look at what's happened in the last thousand years. WE CONQUER ALL. Unfortunately our southerly friends of America are at the top of the heap right now and accompanying them is a greed never seen in human history. Isn't there a particle colider sitting in Texas that's not being used right now? I'm not surprised in the slightest to see the American justice system attack another Int'l effort. Ironically, the enemy is the pursuit of knowledge in this case. Tisk Tisk

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D.K.Bailey, Venice, Florida — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:11:22 GMT

A recent theory indicates gravity fluctuations cause tornados.
In this case it depends on the depth, power, and freq at which it operates.
So long as those in charge limit propagations of unexpected fields and have self limiting coil controls that are correctly grounded, there should not be too many problems.
Expect at certain power levels to be able to 'see' some of the flux resultants, from about half to three quaters of the 7db down point in their amp operational curve, give or take.
If there is an inverse vortex field, looks like an upside down tornado, RUN!
If the ground over it starts to show plasmic discharge fields, like those lamps with the electricity that follows a touch, and is growing, again, RUN!
Puting a set of fluid seismic sensors at about half the diameter from the outer edge should warn of impending problems too.
You can get a base read of flux densities from differing light bulbs within about a tenth the diameter.
Watch for atmospheric anomolies directly overhead and at fouty-five degrees off center. No need to blast another chunck of atmosphere like HARP did.
Any fish and birds should be very good indicators of affects on living things.

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Gary, Franklin, WI — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:13:18 GMT

I'm surprised no one has blamed the "doomsday" scenario on Bill and Hillary! Oh yes, the neocons don't believe in science.

The strangelets we've been dealing with over the last eight years are Bush and Cheney, with Dubya's brain a magnetic monopole and Iraq a runaway black hole! Case closed.

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Rachel, Activist Student, NYU — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:14:13 GMT

"Fire it up!!"
Typical male response.
Lets put the money into healthcare.
Basicly the thing scares me, and threatens children.

Go Hillary !

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Mary Whitmore, Bellevue, Wash. — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:16:44 GMT

Oh, this is just silly. Humans could not possibly have come up with something so incredible in less than 6000 years. If it swallows up up... it was meant to be! Don't think I will worry much about it!

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Travis Keys, Elkridge MD — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:16:55 GMT

This machine is a huge advancement in science and technology, i remember first reading about a while back and cant believe it is going to be delayed again! The chances of any black holes sticking around are next to impossible, and the earth will not turn in to a giant lump of exotic matter. Let the people get on with the experiment so we can see how the earth was really created-i think bible thumpers are just scared because this will prove that maybe GOD didnt create the earth!

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Kirt, Detroit, MI — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:19:51 GMT

This would make a great Dr Who episode.

They did make one back in the late 70's where a large oil company drilled a hole through the Earth's crust. The instant the drill breached the crust; the Earth slowly popped like a water balloon as the doctor watched from space. It was a parrallel universe of course.

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Zane Hughes — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:21:21 GMT

I heard this thing makes a mean cheeseburger.

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S.P.Gallatin, Wasilla, AK — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:22:12 GMT

C'mon folks - there's no need for trash talking people who are afraid. This seemingly "arrogant" attitude is what turns people off from real science; the smart money is to look briefly into these fears, and see if there are valid points here. Then show them that odds are that there will be no Doomsday scenario. The way to handle these people is to show them that there is little/nothing to fear. It's easy to dismiss these people as 'crackpots', but 'crackpots' have a tendancy to write politicians, and contribute to thier election campaigns. Politicians take them far more seriously than scientists who do neither, and that is the greater danger to science.

Why sue in the US? Because that gives them the chance to hold up completion of components manufactured here, thus holding up the entire project.

I for one, look forward to the misteries uncovered by LHC, and for what the long term results may give us.

It is easy to say that LHC will do nothing for us, yet what if no one had listened to A.C.Clarke? The same people would not enjoy thier global internet, thier sat-cast sports shows, or even thier favorite televangalist.

My point here (apologies if I seem long winded) is that by pettiness, we (those of us who put reason above fear) achieve nothing but making another problem worse. By staying calm, and reasonable, we stand to gain everything. By taking those fears point by point, and showing that there is little/nothing to fear, not forgetting about Murphy's Law, science gains far more than it risks.

On a final point, it seems to me that PR should be required classes for scientists in training.

Thanx all.

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Loren, SF Bay Area, CA — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:25:01 GMT

I agree with Brendan Brannan, disagreeing with those who attempt to dismiss the doomsday scenarios as "science fiction." You are reading these words right now because of a number of things that started out as "science fiction:" Mechanical intelligences. Computer networks that span the globe and enable people to have conversations with others living thousands of miles away. Communications satellites (thank you Arthur C. Clarke). Nuclear reactors and meltdowns (Lester Del Rey, _Nerves_, a 1940's era novel that was so close to what was being developed that he was questioned by the FBI). And humans creating black holes (Edward E "Doc" Smith, among others, in _Grey Lensman_, sometime in the 1940s IIRC, called "negaspheres"). Humans living in Earth orbit.

Some science fiction is truly speculative and will almost certainly never come to pass. But virtually all contemporary science fact started off as science fiction.

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JG — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:26:51 GMT

Just put Stephen Hawking in the collider to see what happens....

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Christopher Edelmaier, Boulder, Colorado — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:28:46 GMT

Sadly, we hear every day about the various woes that our race faces. Its always in the media about how global warming will do us in, no wait, nuclear weapons will, no wait, super-volcanoes! The LHC is a masterpiece of engineering, and already carefully thought out. Do people really believe that the scientists who work at CERN are simply willing to go to any lengths to pursue science no matter the consequences?

First off, if micro black holes are created, chances are they will evaporate before we can even detect them. Heck, we should be so lucky as to actually get to observer a black hole so closely, answering such questions as if Hawking radiation truly does exist, and perhaps what happens in a black hole. Strangelets are roughly the same in that respect; we should be so lucky that we can observe something like this. Same for magnetic monopoles. There is the possibility of danger, but to quote Q from Star Trek about exploring outer space:

"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you oughtta go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid."

The LHC might see a Higgs particle (one of the reasons it was built), thus confirming or denying current physics theories. This question on doomsday is nothing more than a way to get media attention, at the expense of science. We are already seeing budget cuts in science across the world, especially in this area. We need to focus on these projects more, as opposed to attempting to tear them down with doomsday predictions.

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Riley — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:29:38 GMT

It would seem Wagner and Sancho would be more concerned over our present ground and water contamination from past nuclear explosions and accidents than a SiFi what if scenario they have cooked up. There are better dreams and what if's to waste ones time upon, unless you're a SiFi writer.

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Scott Potter, Lexington, Ky — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:51:43 GMT

Most experts would think that such fears are silly. After all, competent physicists involved in designing the project would not be unaware of the risks and would build necessary precautions into the design. But I'm also reminded of Professor Richard P. Feynman's autobiography as one of the principal physicists who worked on the Manhattan Project. He told of a potentially catastrophic situation in which personnel handling volatile chemicals had no idea just how much more volatile they became when combined with water. Because the project was classified, most handlers had less knowledge of what they were doing than their supervisors. The point isn't how much care the designers took. Rather, it is how well controlled the conditions are to take even the least likely scenarios into account.

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John Nelson, San Francisco, CA — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:57:34 GMT

Marvin asked, "Er, how many cosmic ray interactions with center of mass energies in the 28 TEV range have occured near the surface of the earth in the last few billion years?"

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-energy_cosmic_ray
Cosmic Ray Interactions with over 100,000,000 TeV occur once every 100 years per square km. Given the earth's surface area is 148,300,000 km2. Assuming as well that this rate averages out for the last billion years. Around 1.4 * 10^15 interactions have occured in your time frame. I would assume the number or 23 TeV interactions would be perhaps in the realm of 100.

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What the hay... — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:59:26 GMT

I have to say... Some people have a great veiw of the world around them... some are so stupid it really scares me.... I figure by the time the next person gets to the bottom of this list we might already be gone... So lets give it a shot and if a black hole swallows up half the world, at least the guys on the space station will have a great view.

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Isolde Naleck, Wuaconda IL — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 21:06:52 GMT

the keyboard you all are typing on, the internet everyon so values comes from that scientific community and so will the GRID - the LHC is part of our evolution. I am ready for the next level.. take me there.

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randal, tempe, az — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 21:11:47 GMT

Do it! If it is the end of the planet I'm pretty sure it won't be a problem for me. This is how progress is made. Yes, Of course I realize that they thought they had control over the experiment at Chernobyl too, but in the end we cannot prevent the advance of science for fear. Shutting it down would not stop physicists from doing similar experiments on a smaller scale with potentially the same results. Having the LHC means a ton of eyes watching and being involved. That seems safer than sending this type of science "underground".

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Rob k., Sacramento, California — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 21:18:39 GMT

Uh, for all those who freak out about people exercising caution, who chastise those with the intellect to learn from our past, please bear this in mind.

Who here hasn't heard of a child who's touched the stove and suffered severe burns to the hands? The lesson there extends past children and even to the egoistical brainiacs of the world.

Just because you don't understand it, doesn't make it a better idea to play with it... Our species level of understanding everything in the universe, including black holes, dark matter, quarks and the like, is so child, rather infant like, we may as well be back in the womb. Here is a good explination to validate that last sentance.

We as a species have no direct experience with black holes, quarks, dark matter and so on to provide us the proper warnings and safeguards to avoid hurting our selves when play with these things.

A child who burns their hands on the stove has no experience with stoves to provide his/her self with proper warnings and safeguards to avoid hurting his/her self when they play with the stove.

The only difference between we adults and children is this: We adults have experiences with other situations in life that we can relate to new experiences that we encounter. Which is in no way excludes situations found in highly complex physics or other intellectual situation.

So. In my opinion, I'd love to see that thing fired up WHEN we've been able to get a REAL reasonable measure of what the safety issues are. Frankly, I don't think even that will happen in our life time.

That all being said, I know it won't be listened to, SO GOOD LUCK FOLKS! I suggest you live the night before the 1st use of this machine as your last. And if we're all still tooling around the next day, well, we just had one heck of a party, see ya at work...

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Ed Lindsley ...... Seattle, Wash. — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 21:26:50 GMT

I think it is a crime and a disservice to the public when decisions about investigative science is politcally or "panically' motivated. how does it serve the public when a "science project" is mandated with a predetermined conclusion? In other words reject all discovery that dosen't fit the mold. We can't move forward with this kind of thinking.

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Guy S. Newell — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 21:29:45 GMT

Remember, these are the same guys that, just over a hundered years ago, said that heavier-than-air flight was impossible. When the Wright brothers news first hit the wires, many big time newspapers were afraid to run the story.

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blackhole bound — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 21:37:07 GMT

Isn't time infinite in a blackhole? I know there is one at the center of our galaxy, in which we are destined to be in eventually. Go for it-blackholes are fun-not scary

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Dan N., North Dakota — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 21:46:40 GMT

I have the solution: put all the money that would go into building the LHC, defending the LHC from this lawsuit, all the money that it would cost to file the suit, and successfully win the case (on either side), pour that funding into a mission to Mars, and build the LHC on Olympus Mons. That way, we'll only be blowing up Mars. And who really cares about Mars, right?

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IS, Naperville, IL — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 21:57:38 GMT

I'm doubting the scientific credibility of the two skeptics, one of whom is not even mentioned as having a physics background. It seems like we should be trusting the scientists, especially those well-versed in the particle physics that they are studying.

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Dig faster Dig Deeper — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 21:59:38 GMT

Fire it up on Dec. 21, 2012. :)

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Ken, Flagstaff — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 22:06:19 GMT

When we created the Atomic bomb there were concerns over setting off a chain reaction and igniting the entire atmosphere thereby turning the earth into a very well done piece of toast.
Their fears were as groundless then as they are now.

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GanjaMarijuana4lyfe — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 22:06:31 GMT

Notice, most people against this are either from Texas or any other 'red' state. I think this goes to show us that Closed-Minded people who don't want this experiment to occur are all REDNECKs!
We should sink the state of Texas into the Golf of mexico. I would LOVE to have this planet and all it knows to be expanded by this project, however, I would also love it if this project created some super particles that destroyed the planet and all we know. Its not like global warming isnt slowly killing the planet, why not take a chance to learn something about the universe. The way i see it, Its like either smoking a ciggarette, or playing russian roulette.

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Walter L. Wagner — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 22:07:55 GMT

Alan:

Here's the historical scenario.

In 1999, a prominent theoretical physicist [Frank Wilczek, who subsequently won a Nobel Prize in physics for his work on quark theory] proclaimed that micro black holes were impossible to make, and that suggesting creation of such was foolish. He did raise the possibility that strangelets might be created at the RHIC and LHC, but shot down that idea too.

A few years later, many theorists began saying that micro black holes were actually conceivable due to some theories of large extra dimensions, disputing Wilczek's version that it was foolish to suggest their creation. They did go on to say that such black holes should rapidly evaporate by "Hawking radiation", a theoretical idea never observed. To support that contention, they pointed to cosmic ray impacts which are higher in energy than the LHC. Here's what the CERN website currently says about what the ATLAS experiment might uncover: "Among the possible unknowns are the origin of mass, extra dimensions of space, microscopic black holes, and evidence for dark matter candidates in the universe."

What those theorists overlooked, however, is that cosmic ray impacts, if they produce micro black holes, produce them at high speed, close to the speed of light, and they would have little or no chance to interact with earth [or stars, etc.]. Conversely, if produced by the LHC, an appreciable percentage would be slow speed, and become gravitationally bound to earth.

It is that overlooked scenario that the LHC Safety Assessment Group is presently investigating with their report now some three months overdue. Rumors have surfaced that they are looking to a "neutron star" argument, since neutron stars might stop relativistic micro black holes because they have some 1E10 times greater stopping power than normal stars, and they believe the existence of neutron stars therefore would mean that micro black holes can't be created. However, we really have no idea as to what the properties are of a relativistic micro black hole, and the argument simply sets a limit on those properties.

In addition to myself, there are six others who filed written affidavits in the suit addressing numerous different issues, including the ethical make-up of the LHC Safety Assessment Group being composed of CERN employees.

My own credentials in high-energy physics dates back to 1973, and I have kept abreast of the field ever since.

You have an interesting reading audience. I particularly liked the comment that read: "safe or not---fail or not---- someone has made a ton of money building it, and tons more by running it.
bob mi. (Sent Thursday, March 27, 2008 2:56 PM)"

That addresses one of the ethical concerns issues that was raised in the suit.

Best regards,

Walter

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Cliff Hipsher, Richmond Virginia — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 22:15:19 GMT

This is nothing more than a case of sour grapes. The plaintiffs are using ignorance and superstition to cast doubt on the science involved and generate fear among the public at large. Students of scientific history will recognize this as just more of the same hysteria that precedes any significant advance in science.

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Las Vegas — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 22:17:38 GMT

While I truly believe in the advancements of science,
I alway keep in mind the true meaning of Shelly's Frankenstein. When it comes to man's pursuit of scientific discovery, we seem to easily disregard the drawbacks(cost/benefit rule) that might come along with such discoveries. A good example is man's discovery of nuclear power and dangers to civilization that come with such advancements.

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larry garcia las cruces,nm — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 22:20:09 GMT

Back in 1945 during the first experimental explosion of the atomic bomb, the concern of many, including authorities in physical science, was the uncontrolable reaction which might consume and eventually destroy the earth's entire atmosphere. People will always fear the unknown.

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Leingang, Tacoma, Washington — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 22:21:29 GMT

Strangelets don't exist as we know it, and these people who are bringing up these theories are not physicists, but instead physicist wannabes. [...] Let the particle accelerating commence.

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Mark Brown, Portland OR, USA — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 22:24:58 GMT

Please stop giving credence to these ignorant doomsayers. It's like giving the guy on the corner with the world ends tomorrow sign his on radio show...or have they already done that?

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Ray Fotion — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 22:27:14 GMT

Damn the LUDDITES full speed ahead! If we don't try how will we learn?

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Johan, Santa Clara, CA — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 22:50:28 GMT

As talked about in:
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/
solarsystem/2006_mag_recon.html

the Sun makes particle accelerators naturally.

The Sun is able to make giant particle accelerators without gobbling up the universe, why can't we?

Should the Sun be sued?

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Kelly — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:10:47 GMT

My fear is that they will open a dimension to hell and it will melt our polar icecaps! ;-)

Got to laugh a little bit everyday!

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cmac LA, CA — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:13:26 GMT

Two points. Both are common sense...

1. If anything exotic does occur, it will be leaving the collision area at relativistic speeds! Thus, just like cosmic rays, it will be away from Earth a nanosecond after it's creation and beyond the moon in 2 seconds.

2. Does anyone think that the 1000 or so physicists involved via Fermilab and CERN are suicidal? If they honestly believed there was any significant danger from breaking the TEV barrier like this do you think they would keep it to themselves and risk their children too? Black holes, strangelets, and monopoles would not be selective phenomena. If they actually managed to remain stable they would affect everyone even (gasp) CERN physicists and their families!

Stupid is as stupid does, and I really hate when non-experts strut out ignorant theories to stop real research by real experts. This is exactly the same ignorance that climate change deniers and evolution critics wrap themselves in. They try to stagnate human progress to appease whatever superstition they worship over reason.

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Timmy Two Moons — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:17:05 GMT

Ok, here's the thing. I read a few of the comments listed here and all I see from what I read is a tremendous lack of true understanding. I'm a huge science fan. I studied molecular biology in college and read everything I can on all matters related to science. Having said that, from a lifetime pursuit of my interest in science I know one undisputable fact: I am no expert. And from what I can tell, most of the posters here are fans, not experts. I would suggest that you make no assumptions about the likelyhood of any of these doomsday scenarios actually coming true. Remember, the scientists who are giving you the odds are also the scientists who benefit from the switch being turned on. Use the scientific method to come to the answer. Assume you don't know the answer and then seek the truth.

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Simon G. Toronto — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:19:32 GMT

My opinion is that this hearing could have positive impact on us. By "us" I mean those who don't have a slight idea of what is going on, and what this experiment is all about. Therefore this could trigger a public interest for science and bridge some gaps between scientifically illiterate people and the current state of science evolution.

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JTankers, Middleton WI — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:20:30 GMT

A copy of submitted complaint and affidavits, in Word for Windows format, was emailed to me personally by Walter L. Wagner, co-petitioner on 2008/03/22. I uploaded a copy to: http://www.lhcconcerns.com/LHCConcerns/Forums/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=29 . LUIS SANCHO, et al., Plaintiffs

The main article will need links to official copies of the complaint when available (citation assistance needed). Allegations alleged in the complaint and affidavits include the following main facts in quotes, many of which may be out of context and/or text replaced with an ellipsis […] for brevity sake:

"injunction [...] from operating the LHC until [...] proven to be reasonably safe" "No absolute refutation of the adverse scenarios that have been described has yet been articulated” “suggested by defendants that the ‘risk’ of the adverse scenarios is small.” “fundamental flaws were existent in those “safety reviews” and pointed out to defendants by plaintiffs.” “current safety review is known as the LHC Safety Assessment Group [LSAG] Safety Review.” “initially scheduled for completion by January 1, 2008 […] not yet been released […] as promised” “CERN's Chief Scientific Officer, Jos Engelen, was recently quoted in The New Yorker as instructing CERN scientists not to say that the risk from colliders is low, but to say that the risk is zero” “the real risk of these proposed experiments can be as high as 75%” ” Chief Scientific Officer, Mr. Engelen passed an internal memorandum to workers at CERN, asking them, regardless of personal opinion, to affirm in all interviews that there were no risks involved in the experiments, changing the previous assertion of ‘minimal risk’. ” “2 out of 3 absurd articles received by this magazine [for publication] try to prove Einstein wrong, […] they actually only prove their ignorance of Classic Relativity.” “LHC […] producing miniature black holes at the rate of 1 per second” “Director of CERN said that “the LHC will be the closest we will ever be to God”” “experiments that would take place at the LHC could be carried out by advanced Telescopes” “potentially deadly particles might be produced […] Dr. Frank Wilczek […] Nobel Prize in physics“ “letter to Dr. Wagner jointly signed by CERN’s Director General [Dr. Aymar] and Chief Scientific Officer [Dr. Engelen], CERN “mandated a group of experts, not themselves members of the LHC experimental collaborations, to assess safety aspects of LHC operation. This group is mandated to provide by the end of this year [2007] a written report, which will be made available to the scientific community and to the general public through the CERN web pages." It is to be noted that it is this LSAG Report which is currently overdue.“ ” believe that CERN is planning to commence operation of the LHC in April or May, 2008 “ ““go for launch” decision of spaceship Challenger involved placing the lives of only 7 people at risk, whereas the “go for launch” decision for the LHC located on spaceship Earth involves placing the lives of some 7 Billion people at risk, as well as all of our future descendants not yet born.” “reliance on a “cosmic ray argument” that CERN LHC collisions should be safe. […]They reasoned that if any disastrous particle could be created, it would already have been created eons ago by nature […] overlooked during their previous safety assessment […] novel particle such as a micro black hole […] simply pass harmlessly through our planet […] Conversely, any such novel particle that might be created at the LHC […] would then be captured by earth’s gravity, and could possibly grow larger [accrete matter] […] we have ZERO information on what such cross-section for capture actually is.” “Alternative scientific methods that pose no risk exist for obtaining some of the information being sought by the LHC” “upwards of 90% of our galaxy. All available information, however, shows that Dark Matter indeed feeds upon “ordinary” matter […] Creation of such Dark Matter on Earth would then be seen to be foolhardy, at best.” “Hawking Radiation is not only un-proven, it is directly contrary to established theory of Einstein’s Relativity by which black holes never evaporate, and are forever black”

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JTankers, Middleton WI — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:24:40 GMT

If it is so safe then why couldn't they complete the promised safety report by the end of 2007? And why is this true: Chief Scientific Officer, Mr. Engelen passed an internal memorandum to workers at CERN, asking them, regardless of personal opinion, to affirm in all interviews that there were no risks involved in the experiments, changing the previous assertion of ‘minimal risk’.

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Daniel Lee, Newton County, Mississippi — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:26:04 GMT

Glaciers are melting all over the world, that's a proven fact. Terrorists blow up innocent people every day, another proven fact. The worlds economy is staggering under escalating energy costs and that too is a proven fact. And, appearently, some people have way too much time on their hands and spend it on the most frivolous pursuits. That too is an unfortunate fact!

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(John Doe, Seattle, Wash.): — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:26:25 GMT

"Did you see the Higgs Boson?"
"Nope."
"Huh."
"Well, then."
"Until the theorists get back to us, wanna try hitting pigeons with the photon stream?"
"Already on it. Cool! I just gave a helicopter cancer."

http://xkcd.com/401/

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John L, Gilbert, AZ — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:26:52 GMT

All I have to say is Half-Life.

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Danny van Dyk, Witten, Germany — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:29:30 GMT

I'm so happy that US courts have absolutely no jurisdiction over CERN's activities.

I'm more afraid of Bush's armies invading CERN to liberate them from scientific terrorists than the accidental production of black holes.

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KC, Phoenix, AZ — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:32:51 GMT

This is nothing more than free publicity for some book those guys will be producing in the near future. Like they say "any PR is good PR". After all it has made to a national news source hasn't it?

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you never know — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:38:33 GMT

How likely is it in nature for two particles at close to speed of light collide head-on with immaculate precision?

I would think in nature, one particle is of high energy and the other in it's natural state.

When two particles are both traveling at near the speed of light, what sort of relativistic dilations do they go through?

The upper atmosphere cosmic ray collision comparison may not always hold good.

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cmac LA, CA — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:50:35 GMT

Hay Rob K. from Sacramento, CA...

By your reasoning, we should just stop exploring because our knowledge is small. By your reasoning, we should not endeavor to research anything dangerous unless we can completely guarantee there is no danger. If reasonable surety is your goal, then rest assured CERN and the scientists involved are more than reasonably sure none of the dangers described will happen.

Your analogy of a child burning his hand is appropriate, but ill-used. I have let my daughter learn for herself when possible, even if some minor pain or injury is involved. She once touched our heater and got a small blister, but she does not touch the heater anymore. My wife calls this "daddy learning" and oftentimes you have to let children learn things for themselves. Unless you expect some universal "parent" to give humanity a book explaining particle physics, daddy learning is is our only option as a species.

The "brainiacs"

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John Doe — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:50:50 GMT

I suppose americans don't want a doomsday device in Europe. If somebody destroys the world, it must be them

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Purkinje — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:59:44 GMT

George W. Bush is not involved in the LHC so there is absolutely no way the earth will be destroyed...if however W started taking advanced physics courses.........

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Chad — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 00:00:13 GMT

Give it a go - it something bad happens, at least I won't have to finish my dissertation!

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Michael Reese, Pgh PA — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 00:00:32 GMT

Perhaps in some reality the experiments set to take place at the LHC will in fact destroy us and all existence. However I won't be in that reality. I'll be in the one where we discovered the inner workings of sub-sub-atomic matter and unlocked the secrets necessary to save ourselves from our insatiable appetites for growth and comfort.

We need the LHC to lay the foundations of knowledge for future scientists and engineers to develop a new era of technologies such as nanotech and all the applications it will have. Scientists are typically some of the most frugal and conservative people you'd ever meet, not the type to take big risks. Leave the politics and fear-mongering out of this and let's create another tool to save us from the mess we've already put ourselves in.

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Chris, Phoenix AZ — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 00:21:40 GMT

This is a serious matter. If there is even the smallest possibility of destruction on a large scale... I say STOP THE PRESS and investigate to the fullest extent. Especially if it's something that hasn't been done before. This isn't parents telling kids not to play with fire. These guys are sueing to delay for investigation, and I don't care if they work at a fast food joint... they're right. Something of this scale should be investigated and approved by everyone who matters in the subject. This is not their world, it's all of ours. And if the possibility exists of a doomsday... then all life is at risk... what is a greater loss than that? No experiment is worth that risk, no matter the rewards on success...

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Fri, 28 Mar 2008 00:24:18 GMT

We will do ourselfs in because that is the fate of all civilizations in one way or another...don't mess with mother nature...we are fooling around with things that should be left unknown...we are not smart enough to understand the forces of the universe...we could be opening pandora's box of destruction....

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Alistair — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 00:28:37 GMT

What's the most you've ever lost in a coin toss? :-)

The doomsday scenarios seem as unlikely as finally discovering the nature of matter and the universe. But some people above seem to think that a potential benefit is worth a small risk of any magnitude.

Hopefully the potential downsides have been carefully considered by people who are not blinded/biased by how cool it would be to try the planned experiments.

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Hollywood — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 00:37:50 GMT

this is what happened in the fog.

when will science learn?

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Daniel Lewis, Okinawa Japan — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 00:41:48 GMT

For starters, taking a lump of mass and converting it to a black hole does *not* mean it instantly sucks everything around it in. A black hole is merely the compression of matter that already existed into a very small space. If you collapse a star into one, it weighs exactly the same, and has exactly the same gravity. A micro black hole can't survive because it's gravity isn't sufficient to hold itself that tightly together. Something needs incredible mass to attract particles that would normally repel eachother with great force.

Strangelets haven't been witnessed in outer space, and 28TeV is *nothing* when you look at what comes out of some of the more interesting objects. Cosmic rays run at 10^20, which is roughly 10^8 times more!

While I tend to agree that continuing to build bigger and bigger colliders indefinitely is probably stupid because you really don't want to exceed the known limits of the universe and create truly exotic stuff, this one's well within what we normally see in our corner of space. We just want the particles to be inside our detector machines instead of looking at the photons they give off after they've travelled a million years.

Make sense?

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Orlando Gordillo, Corpus Christi Tx — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 00:43:35 GMT

In the name of knowledge seriously do not delay this. The quicker we learn of dark matter, the faster we'll find a propulsion method to move faster in space. I'll quote another guy on this "I could theoretically fall through the chair Im sitting on right now but I won't." There is nothing to fear, but the science fiction fears someone else is having.

stop the law suit and quit the delay, lets get this deal on the way!

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Fred Del Gregorio — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 00:44:59 GMT

These people(the physicists) don't know what causes the big bang. They theorize that there was no matter before the big bang, that matter materialized only during the stage of inflation which produced all the matters that we see today. There are so many what-ifs in this scenario. What if the cause of the big bang is the collision of matter and anti-matter. They say they annihilate each other when they meet. What if the collision of these particles creates an anti-matter that touches any matter inside the collider. They say they annihilate each other which means there is no matter byproduct. They are not sure if is dangerous or not.

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Eric L, Portland, OR — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 00:49:27 GMT

The LHC will create collisions with an energy of 2.8x10^12 EV. A relativistic particle observed in 1991 in Utah (likely a proton) had an energy of 3x10^20 EV, 100 million times more energy than the LHC will produce. There's nothing the LHC can do that doesn't occur thousands of times a second throughout the galaxy. There is no concern of any doomsday scenarios.

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Mitch, GA — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 00:53:54 GMT

I hear, "put the money in programs for healthcare", etc.... Well how do you think the state of healthcare got to where it is? Medical imaging anyone? It was developed by nuclear physicists. Ever had a PET scan? It works by injecting ANTI-MATTER into the body and looking at the resultant radiation. People need to put down the Bible, turn off their TV, and get some education based on observation and physical evidence. The ironic part is that people fear science they have come to use (and expect it) in their daily lives and they don't even know it. Ask yourself a question. Does ignorance make you feel like a good christian? I think the answer in America is yes. The most emotionally sincere response is not necessarily the right response. But it seems to have become the basis for people in this country. Next time your loved one needs a Doctor, will you take the PHD doctor or the faith based doctor?

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Robert de Jong — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 01:02:44 GMT

If you keep sailing, over the edge you go. Yousel see!

Let'er rip. Let the hair go with the hide.

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Jay, South East, England — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 01:03:22 GMT

What will this do for us anyway? If you can show me any benefits for this then that's fair, go ahead. However if knowing what happened in the very first seconds of the universe (Or any of the other theorys) is not going to do anything useful then why bother risking it?

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Chris R, Pittsburgh PA — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 01:12:29 GMT

There is a chance that one of you will come after me and kill me when I sleep. In the interests of safety I think its only proper that you all be locked up forever. Sure, the chance of one of you actually coming after me and killing me while I sleep is vanishingly small its not zero now is it? Why should I let your reckless desire for freedom override my right to absolute, complete, statistically assured safety?

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Zenu — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 01:31:22 GMT

Hey weather its this thing, or the Stay Puff Marshmellow man.... We're all doomed sooner than later... So sit back enjoy the ride, you never know what they will discover until they discover it.

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Peter Costanza, Cambridge, MA — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 01:33:18 GMT

Has anyone considered the possibility that the Big Bang was caused by eight-armed nuclear physicists with lots of hubris and a really powerful collider?

More seriously, one of the stronger arguments for the danger presented by this machine is our total failure to find any sign of other intelligent life forms in a universe that appears to be swarming with solar systems more or less like ours. This is possibly the result of the fact that intelligent life forms always generate physicists who, sooner or later, destroy the universes (or at least the planets) on which they evolved.

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jim, lakewood, CA — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 01:33:41 GMT

Go to show you how brainless, dim-witted, and foolish people are about new things. Plug it in and turn up the juice!!!! let's go......

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Over-it — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 01:34:02 GMT

What..? Everything here is going so smashingly well, despite predetermined mortality, that you crybabies are so dern scared of death all the time?..

Good Lord! I'm not even middle-aged, but am already bored and annoyed to the point of ignorant of every fergin little health | wellfare | safety | waa-waa "Nooo!!! STOP! Listen to meeee!.. Ban this! Halt that! Aren't you scared like me!!?? Don't you care about meee!?" whiner out there...

LHC! Take me Awayyyyyy!!!

I'd be disappointed if it didn't create a super massive annihalation of some interesting kind in it's first collision.

:P

LHC, standby...

FIRE!

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Go back to your mud huts, Allentown, Pa — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 01:39:45 GMT

Why is it that people are so scared of scientific discovery? These are the same people that stifled Galileo when he proposed the ridiculous notion that the earth wasn't the center of all the universe. The same people who keep stem cells from saving millions of lives. Shame on these people. Are we running out of things to be afraid of? Black holes swallowing the earth? Realy? Be afraid of getting shot in your driveway, or being born in the Sudan or the balkans. Be afraid of the state of the environment. For God's sake get some perspective!!!

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Calvin Hobbes, West Allis, WI — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 01:44:44 GMT

If only theories exist about what we will learn by using the LHC, then we obviously do not possess the knowledge or technology to determine EXACTLY what it will produce, doomsday event or no. The lawsuit is pointless. We need LHC results to confirm whether or not we should use it. Catch-22, baby!

I cannot wait to see what the LHC has to teach us, and what it holds to confound us. Yet I lament that I live in such a "primitive" time in human history. The millennia to come would be fascinating to see, regardless. . .

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Jason Merrill, Honesdale PA — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 01:51:20 GMT

jeez... partical colliders, space exploration -- fix the problems here and now first people. We have all the scientific know how we need right now to do that. Then we can work on understanding better what our universe is made of. If all this money wasnt being spent on war, maybe this would be easier to attain.

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john — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 01:59:18 GMT

Please insult each other some more.

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Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 02:02:51 GMT

"Alright, we're cooler than they are. Why don't they fix their little problems and shortsightedness and lets light this candle?!!"

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cvlv — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 02:05:26 GMT

What's to worry? Hillary will take the call (doomsday scenarios always go off at 3 a.m.; that's why she picked that hour), and as long as she remembers to dodge the sniper bullets we can all sleep snugly -- unless, o.m.g., she's sleep deprived again and mis-speaks into the phone.

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Shantanu, Atlanta — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 02:08:44 GMT

This reminds me of of what I have read that five centuries back regarding Galileo and how he was jailed in Church for decades simply because his science was not understood by the Church. Is there some similarity between the Church then and our country's (USA) behavior at this time?
Any new science is always opposed by those who do not understand it. Unfortunately, I would expect this from some third world country but not from the most advanced country like ours - I think with the republican and Church's influence the country has become just like the Church of 15th 16th century (lots of power, bullying weaker countries or sects, and slow to adapt to advances in any science field - whether its nuclear power or hydrogen fuel, we are way behind scandinavian countries).

We need to start looking forward so we do not end up becoming like 15th 16th century Church.

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john wisc. — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 02:12:32 GMT

personally i think we might be getting ahead of ourselves.
its nota matter of fear, or the "unknown", its a matter of jumping without looking. the unreliability, of what just might happen once this is turned on is the question. will it hurt anyone, or set us back a million years, if we dont look at every possible aspect of what could happen? no. all it takes, is one small oversight, can happen to anyone. takeing the time, and having somone double check, someone elses work...do it. no one person or group or even groups of groups, can ever be certain the outcome of "everything". variables always exsist.
when matter/anti-matter ect get involed...our knowlege of anti-matter is like putting a 1st grader behind the wheel of a dumptruck engine off, keys in the ignition....lets face it, a blind man, can't always miss.....thats been proven

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DiRt Washington DC — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 02:13:52 GMT

Glad to see this discourse. I'd like to see mega science projects like this come out from behind their shrouds and have to fight to justify their projects. Projects that have a large effect on mankind and life as we know it, good or bad.

Hopefully this discussion will continue beyond blogs.

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John Doe, Seattle, Wash. — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 02:14:43 GMT

Drama, drama, drama! Only in the U.S. will someone file a lawsuit for the "what if." Stop watching science fiction/horror movies and get a job! If you have one get another or work overtime. You need to pay for your Shrink!

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Daniel, Mountain View, CA — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 02:19:36 GMT

"Please God someone stop these people."

I called him. He says no, not until the concerned people clean up their grammar and stop using all caps.

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Ray — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 02:39:16 GMT

I'm filing a lawsuit to prevent anyone from driving their vehicles, as I believe that a velocity of 76.39574878643 mph sustained for more than 5 seconds might destroy the universe. :^)

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Jim — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 02:40:27 GMT

Funny... there are real doomsday scenarios that are not taken seriously: global warming, meteor impact, pandemics, nuclear war, etc. These are all reasonably plausible, and yet some people turn their efforts to fighting that which they cannot understand, and thus fear deeply. We should trust science when it tells us that the earth is warming at our peril, and large hadron colliders will not destroy our planet. Perhaps they should sue islam and violent video games while they're at it.

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R. Kelly — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 02:44:11 GMT

If they decide to shut it down and "evaluate its safety", after a year (or several) we'll be told what we already know - that there is an incredibly miniscule chance that it will destroy all life. You can never, ever eliminate with 100% certainty that any particular event will not occur. And of course, once this information is revealed, the same people will still be just as rabid about shutting it down. So we'll have to wait even longer as they try to shut it down or try to delay it yet again for whatever reason.
When you look at it like this, the lawsuit is not only foolish but also illogical. Even if they manage to win, it will accomplish nothing. Only our time is wasted, and if this man has his way, the LHC will be shut down, and that would just be a tragedy.
It is ridiculous that one person has even the slightest chance of stopping all scientific progress in this area simply by complaining to his local government. It's time to stop being afraid. We only have one life on this planet, and we shouldn't be held back by something as foolish and base as fear. Stop worrying, calm down, you are not going to explode. Not from the LHC, at any rate.

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Need to know , Monroe, North Carolina — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 02:46:14 GMT

Heres a thought, Just like our solar system is in a galaxy, and we can see millions of galaxies through a telescope. Then what is to say that we are not on the outer edge of a massive galaxy??? Maybe there was no BIG BANG. Galaxies form just like a star would???
So many theories from the past have been proven false with todays technology. The LHC an old theory or new fact????

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Rajiv Jain — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 02:51:14 GMT

This is what happens when you have more lawyers per square foot than teachers. And anti-science and anti-fact idiots like Bush in power.

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Wiz,Perth,Oz — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 02:54:30 GMT

Like Jay Otterstein, I see a 1950's style sci-fi angle on this.

Imagine that all the gamma ray events we see in the sky, are the final indication that the civilization at the location of the event, has built and operated their own LHC...

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cire2loki, redwood city, ca — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 02:55:07 GMT

Interesting.

Shall we look at this from a demographic viewpoint or a historical one? [No, no, read on, you'll like this...] Demographically, it appears that the more learned one is in physics, etc., the more one scorns the idiot worriers. Conversely, the 'lay' people so to speak are very clear that asking the egg heads, necessarily fanatical to their current theories regardless of chances (c.f. the 'bet' by atom bomb inventors on whether the atmosphere would ignite) to be prudent may not epitomize prudence.

Historically, well..., the community to whom I am addressing these remarks can obviously fill in the rest.

To shock with an awful paraphrase, "Tread carefully where Angels fear to run."

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KEIF HAMMOND,LA — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 02:56:13 GMT

READ "THE RISING" BY BRIAN KEENE. IT GOING TO CAUSE AN INVASION OF DEMON ZOMBIES FROM THE VOID. WE WILL ALL DIE BEING TORN APART BY THE UNDEAD. NO REALLY FIRE IT UP I WANT TO SEE WHATS HAPPENS. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE WHAT WIERD INFO THEY FIND

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Who moved my magnetic monopoles, by Spencer Johnson, MD — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 02:57:51 GMT

Everyone telling people to hide under their beds need to reassess their comments. I built a super colider in my garage that when initiated will convert all the matter under people's beds into Heath Bars.

So don't hide there, I gave you fair warning.

Seriously, people if you fear the LHC you need to go read up on your physics.

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D. A., Los Angeles, CA — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 02:59:06 GMT

Let's put this into perspective... While I understand why scientists are loathe to state that anything is absolute, being somewhat associated with the field, reasonable probabilities can be estimated for the likelihood of these "Doomsday" scenarios being manifested. Dare I say that a group of 1000 monkeys pounding on keyboards have a better chance at re-producing War and Peace than any of these experiments producing these "Doomsday" conditions let alone the likelihood of any of these detractors meeting an untimely demise at the wheel of a car. I don't see any of them complaining about that!!

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Patrick Bishop, Caldwell, NJ — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 03:10:26 GMT

While I doubt anything untoward will result from operating the LHC, I am uncomfortable with the characterization of LHC opponents as irrational. Such comments are, at best, a disreputable form of rebuttal and do tend to say more about their source than their target.

As for fearing what we don't understand, sometimes our very lack of understanding prevents us from fearing what we should. Raise your hand if you were born knowing not to take candy from strangers...or from strangelets.

Let's try to keep it real. Remember, if the scientists operating the LHC had all the answers about the behavior of matter at these energies, they wouldn't need to build the thing in the first place. They ARE building it.

It follows that any statements the LHC's builders/operators give us on the topic of the consequences of its operation should be received with healthy skepticism precisely BECAUSE such statements are based on theoretical assumptions the LHC is itself designed to test.

The machine's failure to destroy us would be almost as bad as its success, for human intellectual hubris will certainly ascend to new and dizzying heights, from which its inevitable crash and burn probably WOULD be the end.

In any event, unless the risk of doomsday is actually zero, and it isn't, operating the LHC does seem unnecessarily reckless.

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D. A., Los Angeles, CA — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 03:16:53 GMT

OUCH...

The depth of understanding and insight I've read on this blog gives me even more confidence in our educational system!!!

High Energy Particle Physics = MAGIC!!!!

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D. O. ; Denham Springs, LA — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 03:18:23 GMT

I'm sure the caveman feared the fire, but without it I'm quite sure man would not have progressed and evolved the way he did. (and so we don't start another discussion, I'm a devout Catholic). The scientists here have every right to observe the possibilities and perhaps learn some amazing things about the universe that we simple humans know so little about. Heck, we're probably wrong about some of the things we think we're dead on about. I may not have the intellect of the people working on this project,but I'm smart enough to say ignore the fearful people and do what we are programed to do--explore/learn!! The chances that "bad" things could occur are said to be microscopically slim. They are said to be that way by what seems to be the top experts in theoretical physics. I have just one question; Why then does it seem a "poster child " for the opposition is a PSYCOLOGY MAJOR!!??

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Al OneStone — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 03:23:10 GMT

...
It is too bad that so many people failed their basic Science and Physics that now they believe in the Supernatural as portrayed in Science Fiction Movies.
...
Watch out for the Dark Side of the "Force"...
...

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Chris, Vancouver, BC — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 03:30:20 GMT

It seems to me that there is a group of people who are worried about finding out some answers to the "big questions."
If the LHC can offer proof of the big bang, then I can see why there is a motion to stop it. It's only a matter of time before we see where these ridiculous concerns are coming from, and my bet is that it will have something to do with the evangelical uprising the US.
Religious fundamentalists created intelligent design to slip creationism into schools; perhaps the same people have come up with these ridiculous concerns about the LHC for fear of what it may reveal about the universe.
Even these silly notions of man-made black holes has already sent some people scrambling for their caps lock...

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bumble,hollywood maryland — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 03:36:58 GMT

my problem with this device and the people constructing it is the fact that they love to use the theory of relativity to prove that the theory of relativity doesnt work.for me it is like saying two plus two equals five, knowing that it doesnt, and designing a series of experiments around five just to prove it doesnt equal five. that math doesnt add up.

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Debbie — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 03:40:58 GMT

We will either die quickly or suffer slowly during this experiment called life. All we create as humans has consequences we cannot always foresee. I just wish they had created a device that would provide enviro-friendly fuel, clean (drug-free) water, food that grows in the desert, or a president who doesn't suffer from delusions of grandeur. I'm not sure what benefit this device will have that will make our planet a better place to live.

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Gerry Gilbert, Kent, WA — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 03:47:58 GMT

Curiouser and Curiouser. The more we dig the deeper the rabbit hole will go. The search for a logical, orderly universe is a search for something that does not exist.

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Vincent DiCarlo, Davis, California — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 03:49:43 GMT

It seems to me that questions this important should not be relegated to being hashed out in letters to the editor, on the back of napkins, or in off the cuff scoffing by the project's participants. It is a scandal that there is no systematic risk assessment program as part of these kinds of experiments. Only after such a systematic risk assessment by qualified and disinterested parties can any sensible conclusions be drawn.

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Fox Mulder — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 04:26:14 GMT

Turn the machine on December 21st, 2012. And while there at it, they better get me & Scully to investigate the possibilty that after they turn the machine on, it will create a bridge between dimensions, and open up a wormhole and allow alien to fly their inter-dimensional spaceships into our space and land on Earth right on the front lawn of the White House. Remember the infamous words..."Klattu Buratu Nikto...Please, these people should have white coats wrapped around them for the safety of the public.

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Randy Gentillon — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 04:27:06 GMT

Dont fear, just duck and cover and everything will be ok!

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Michael T — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 04:28:11 GMT

Those who are spreading this panic are basically saying that because the experiment is expected to produce previously unknown results those results could be dangerous.

This is true, just as it has been with every other experiment since fire.

It could never be a fair trial as the people with relevant experience of the matter will all be on trial (directly or by proxy).

Anyone with the slightest feel for physics (I don't include the kids who've read a wikipedia page about it) would be bemused at the idea that something so puny could have effects more pronounced than those routinely observed in nature.

The amount and energy of the particles used in each of the collisions is very small when compared to natural processes.

It would not damage your health if (somehow) the particle was fired into your face instead of at another particle in the collider.

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Carl Trainham, River Falls WI — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 04:42:51 GMT

I wish not to disrespect the plaintiffs in this matter to any degree, but I must say that by all logic and reason of thought and theory to any degree these catastrophes they FEAR will take place are just that Fears. It stands to reason that the parameters of this LHC are not even close to the parameters required to create the extreme and absolute variables needed to achieve any one of these domesday scenarios. These are mega creations we are talking about which are all based on our finite and limited understanding. The true facts we have on any one of these scenarios tells us that these FEARS are founded in something that is not possible with the given technology we currently posses admitted, perceived or denied.

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Randolph Mc Authur, New York, New York — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 05:12:36 GMT

This discussion is an example of hubris. We have declared ourselves capable of creating energies/particles that consistent with the beginning of the universe, using resources that are not even remotely available on the planet. Let 'er rip!

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Susan Jackson — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 05:16:51 GMT

I say let them do it. Scientist certainly know more it than the people comenting here. I seriously doubt they would even think about it as they would eventually die the same as everyone with the earth being slowly eaten by a black hole.
Now as far as science fiction try the book "Eater"
you all will like it. LOL

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Laura A. Tisoncik — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 05:19:21 GMT

Some of the above comments seem to suggest that an LHC experiment consists mostly of turning the machine on and just seeing whatever happens.

Thats not how science works. Scientists turn the machine on with a precise amount of power and aimed at a carefully chosen target, and look for something they reasonably expect might be there. If it doesn't appear as expected, what will occur will nonetheless conform to certain basic scientific laws, including the laws of thermodynamics. We don't open up our fridge with the expectation that we'll see a turkey roasting itself next to the cold milk-- the heat energy necessary to roast a turkey simply isn't present in a refrigerator. Though the filament of the small bulb that illuminates the fridge is more than hot enough, it's nowhere "big" enough.

Likewise scientists don't expect to see doomsday phenomenon emerging out of the LHC because the energy required to create such phenomena simply isn't present. Like the fridge bulb filament, the "temperature" of the experiment is high enough, but it's not "big" enough to create anything scary. It may or may not turn the Standard Theory explaining particles on its head, but it can do nothing of the sort to the earth and the universe, because when you crunch the numbers, the energy isn't there for that.

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Miguel, Salt Lake City, UT — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 05:38:26 GMT

I find arguments such as, “The chances of anything happening are so SMALL so why would we wait another few months for more research? We have those observations about cosmic rays, and we're pretty sure black holes just disappear if they are small enough... (etc)" pretty stupid. If we were talking about something like a bomb or a chemical, or even a virus for that matter, I could understand taking the risk. But we are talking about the whole Earth here. If we get this wrong, it isn't a matter of moving elsewhere anymore. The only life we know of in the universe gone, the end. It's all about risk. Sure, we think the risks are small, but we don't really know for sure. On micro black holes for instance, we think they just pop out of existence because of Hawking radiation, but that has never been shown experimentally so we don't KNOW. I definitely think we should take risks sometimes, even if the consequences can be bad, but some risks are just too big to take, especially for the sake of impatience.

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anthony, australia — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 05:40:35 GMT

US courts have no jurasdiction over CERN, a european collaboration, The USA isn't even a member state of CERN. Unless ths US chooses to go to war with Europe over this, there isn't much they can do.

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Miguel, Salt Lake City, UT — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 05:42:09 GMT

"This is the possibly the dumbest lawsuit I have ever heard, I'm not familiar with strangelets or magnetic monopoles, though both of those seem like pretty crackpot theories. But the idea that an artificial black hole could persist for more than a few micro-seconds is absurd. You would need a mass a million (or trillion) times greater than will ever go through any particle accelerator in order to create a stable black whole."

[citation needed]

Or more specifically, could you please show me the empirical evidence that proves this?

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Dave Hart Dyke — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 05:55:18 GMT

Strangelets, you say? What a colorful, charming term!

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Dave, Portland OR — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 06:03:12 GMT

so of course we won't know for "certain" one way or another until after it's started, and then has been running for some period of time. I think it's careless to dismiss the possiblities, however we must accept certain risk any time we do anything new. The one question I have though, is why rush this? If we try to prove out all the possiblities that would be impossible no matter how much time we have, but if we're just trying to ensure that all the prudent safety measures are in place I say, take your time, get it right and stop all this insane wasting of money on lawyers!!!

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Joe Blow — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 06:08:04 GMT

So there is just the tiniest of chances that this could be global catostrophic? You play those odds on "Santa's Little Helper" in the 3rd race; not on the existance of an entire race.

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Sanchito — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 06:09:31 GMT

The lawsuit only wants to perform external audits to the particles resulting from the colissions.
The LHC is not working at a matter level that things could be 'predicted' by definition at this energy scale we have no further consecuences, but there is the possibility that some of the energy from that colissions are in fact being drained, and that could be measured for sure. That drain could be particles going thru matter, or going thru space time.
That is not necesarily to be called radiation, but some other form of chain reaction still going undetected.
"I detect some space-time matrix modifications capitan"
Zulu.

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LW, Brisbane, Australia — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 06:11:31 GMT

Alan, on two points in your article:

First, you wrote: "Representatives at Fermilab in Illinois and at Europe's CERN laboratory, two of the defendants in the case, say there's no chance that the Large Hadron Collider would cause such cosmic catastrophes."

The above are protagonists for collider experiments. By definition, they have a conflict of interest.

There are a range of stakeholders in this question, not just physicists and not just those involved with the collider. The general public are stakeholders and have an interest. If there were suspicions that a dangerous car had been built, it would be considered normal and proper that the public would have an interest. It wouldn't be asserted that only the manufacturer of the car could have standing to judge the merits or risks of the situation.

………………………..

Excerpt 2:

"Some folks outside the scientific mainstream have asked darker questions as well..."

Questions about the risk have been considered by eminent people inside the scientific mainstream as well– and continuing with the point that it is not only scientists who are stakeholders – inside the non-scientific mainstream as well.

That potentially deadly particles might be produced by collider experiments has been proposed from theory by physicists, and entertained as potentially credible by eminent physicists (one of whom, Dr. Frank Wilczek, went on to win the Nobel Prize in physics). The risks from the particles have seriously been flagged and considered, including by two physicists who are highly eminent - the astronomer, Martin Rees, present President of the Royal Society, and the physicist Francesco Calogero (who is also active in the Pugwash Conferences, and who was its Director General when the Pugwash Organisation received the Nobel Prize).

The view that the potential that collider experiments could create catastrophe lacks an ethical governance institution was also previously put forward for the US collider, the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider (RHIC) by the prominent US jurist, the honorable Richard Posner. In his authoritative book Catastrophe: Risk and Response published by Oxford University Press in 2004, he observed the lack of such process, and called for such by government regulation. This view was uncompromisingly supported by Kenneth Foster in his review of Posner's book in no less than Science journal in 2005. Foster encapsulated the process issues and the underlying contributing mindset of some scientists in this section of the review, quoted as follows:

"Posner will infuriate many scientists whom, he writes, have an “attitude gap created by the different goals, and resulting different mindsets, of science on the one hand and public policy on the other. The scientist qua scientist wants to increase scientific knowledge, not make the world safer — especially from science. …

The strangelet scenario is a case in point. Shortly before a new high-energy accelerator [RHIC] was to begin operation at Brookhaven National Laboratory, a physicist raised concerns that a high-energy collision might trigger a runaway reaction that would quickly transform Earth into a 100-meter lump of inert matter. The lab director took the ethically dubious step of appointing an evaluation panel of physicists, all of whom had professional interests in seeing the experiments go forward. Posner dismisses as non sequiturs the various public statements by physicists intended to reassure the public of the improbability of the strangelet scenario. Seeing few economic benefits and a likely small but in fact unknown probability of disaster, he argues that high-energy research should be supported by universities rather than the government and that it should be brought under a strict regulatory umbrella."

A case can be made that the present LHC risk assessment situation concerning catastrophic risks is essentially identical to that pertaining to the RHIC.

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AS, Rock Springs, Wyoming — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 06:20:58 GMT

If they wanted to think of the children they will do much better in placing a restraining order on the war in Iraq. 135 billion dollars to bring misery to millions could easily be used to bring better and fairer education/medical systems to all of the US. Throw one or two LHCs for good measure, the price tag of only 3billion dollars, to keep people off the streets.

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anonymous hippopotamus — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 06:22:51 GMT

risk = probability X consequence.
or put it this way:
regarding large scale colliders, have you ever wondered why there are no alien civilizations out there but boat loads of black holes?

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Joseph Portello, Gainesville, Georgia — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 06:41:54 GMT

Man is too vain to believe it can destroy the cosmos. Let the scientists have their heyday and allow nature to do the rest. All comes in due time and I doubt that man's nearly 90 years of meddling in the quantum forces can do what nature could have done in the last 3000.

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Martha Jones — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 06:49:53 GMT

There is absolutely nothing wrong with science fiction.
What was sci-fi fifty years ago, is science reality right at this moment.
That said, this stuff sounds awesome!
I think I'll go watch some DOCTOR WHO.

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chris neglia — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 07:08:35 GMT

The notion 'better safe than sorry' comes to mind. In my opinion, these scientists should still take any criticisms-no matter how ridiculous or improbable-seriously. Since they are working with powerful forces and equipment, they should discuss and have a consensus and plan to mitigate every scenario. It sounds to me like they done so have already. I will be glad to see the results.

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Fred — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 07:30:51 GMT

It'll be too late to say 'I told you so' ...
Welcome everyone to the last chapter of Nostradamus's' prophecies!

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Pea-her griffen — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 07:33:46 GMT

They're really reaching for this one! I get that it would suck if they turn on the Hadron collider and suddenly we create a 'end of the world' phenomenon on our door step. But that is 1 in a infinite shot. I have a better chance in winning a billion dollar lottery then see a doomsday event caused by a few particles colliding into one another.

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AM, Brandon, Manitoba — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 07:54:14 GMT

This artical hits it on the nose. The issue here is that people don't understand the uncertanty and acceptable risks inherent in an experiment like this. One person commented that why should a few people be allowed to risk the fate of the planet. Well, the point is, there is really no risk. At all. A 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.....000 chance of something happening pretty much means that that something isn't going to happen. Ever. Period. The only reason that scientists don't say that something is impossible is that a good scientist doesn't just come out and say that something's impossible. That doesn't mean that it could happen. It's sorta like saying that I shouldn't be allowed to drive a car, becuase quantum mechanics says that there is a 1 in 2,343,536,323,647,362,735,832,745,389,234,373 x 10^293576 chance that all the atoms in the car will quantum tunnel into the White House and kill the President. That's just not going to happen.

Now, if the risk happend to be 1 in 100, well then, the president would have been dead by my 17th birthday.

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Aeronautical Engineer, Seattle WA — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 07:54:36 GMT

It seems we don't have many scientific or engineering type minds here. So here is my two cents after following this for the last several years:

The theory of physics that is most commonly accepted today predicts that miniature black-holes WILL be created by the LHC. However, Stephan Hawking and a few other of the worlds best minds have calculated that these black-holes are too small and will dissipate. There is a minimum threshold in size for black-holes to exist. These will not be large enough. If miniature black-holes are created and instantly dissipate, modern theory will be proven true.

Some will argue that, "well even if there is a small chance of a black-hole being created and staying around, this is merit to not start the LHC". Yes there is a small chance, but the probability of this doomsday scenario is less than a comet or asteroid hitting the planet that we didn't see coming. There is a much greater chance that the super-volcano under Yellow-stone will erupt and end all life in the U.S. There are many things in the world many times more likely to end life as we know it.

Let's get this started and start advancing science. If Stephan Hawking says we are good to go, I for one believe him above anyone else.

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Michael — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 08:24:40 GMT

Dudes...

This argument is happening because there is legitimacy on both sides. Superstitious, luddite, fearful people have held back scientific progress for much of human history. The frustration expressed in these comments is evidence of the frustration of the thoughtful, the inquisitive, the questioning with those who are happy to be sheep and value conformity and security at all costs over the possibilities of progress.

AT THE SAME TIME

Human beings have exhibited arrogance and foolishness in our inquisitiveness. Smart people making atomic weapons without considering what they will be used for. Smart people making drugs to cure ailments without recognizing their systemic impact and ending up creating more harm than good. Food companies coming up with cool preservatives that increase convenience at the cost of basic human health.

There's an understandable tension between those who are excited about trying out new toys (the typical mad scientist archetype) and those who fear the dangers of powers unleased.

Its an ongoing narrative of our culture since the industrial revolution and is expressed in all the dystopian futures created by writers and film makers. Dystopian futures which are not wholly fanciful but contain an element of the possibility of science run amok.

So don't just dismiss people who question the potential impact of scientific experimentation in a knee jerk reaction against those who hold back progress. Take time to give things a fair hearing. Otherwise you are not much better than those dismissing the science without understanding.

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David, Grand Junction, CO — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 08:34:13 GMT

@David, Grand Junction, CO

Instead of "is still very possible" I think you meant or should have meant "is still not very probable"

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teslakid — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 08:44:03 GMT

oh, thanks god! we've find the means to blow the damned universe.. rings a bell?
i'd say.. Gentlemen, Start your EnGineS! (and put the two knuckleheads..umm, iNthe hole first)

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Anonymous — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 08:45:58 GMT

God is the only one who knows everything in this world. Why is everyone so brainwashed in to believing the world came from nothing? There is a creator, people. Come on! Look at yourselves, look in the mirror at yourselves, look at everyone else. Look at the world. Think for once.

Did you really honestly come from a monkey that came from a rock that came from some non-living matter?

This thing won't cause the end of the world. The human race will cause the end because they failed to acknowledge the word of God as being the truth as they are atheists in sinful nature.

I will pray for everyone including myself.

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Jody Overstreet, Park Hills, MO — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 08:49:04 GMT

Well one of the bigger questions is are we alone in the universe, perhaps we were not at one time but a civilization advanced sufficiently enough to build a advanced particle accelerator beyond the capability of what the LHC can do, and there was a accident.

It would neatly tidy up the lack of contact by other advanced civilizations.

Perhaps thats the cycle, life arises, intelligence arises, the civilization seeks more knowledge about the universe, advances to the point they build a super collider, and create a black hole that destroys all evidence that they ever existed. -accepting any em that escaped before said scenario into the universe at large-

Possible scenario, probable unlikely? Who knows.

Personally im all for them gathering all the info they can from the LHC, so when they cant gather anymore useful info they will of course build a stronger one, with energy levels that could produce such possible outcomes, till then.. fire it up!

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Oliver Sparrow, Henley, UK — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 08:53:01 GMT

It would be impossible to prove that any event could not happen - including the LHC turning into a surprised whale - without a Theory of Everything. However, cosmic rays arrive with at leats the same energy, and have done for the past 4.8 bn years.

One area where this is not true is in very low temperature research, where the cosmic microwave background implies a minimal temperature. Things like Bose-Einstein condensates are therefore "unnatural". Given their boson tendency to superimpose, one plausible scenario is where a massive BEC does indeed collapse under its own gravitaional field.

The Fermi paradox asks where everyoneis, if our understanding of the origins of life is broadly correct. One new possibility, therefore: technological societies all conduct a class of experiments which acts as a full stop to their sentence. (Or we are in a game park, or it's dangerous out there, so keep silent; or technology-using biological intelligences find a new and better way to "be" - in silicio, perhaps - after a few hundred year-equivalents.)

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Don Hubeck Bedrock, Iowa — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 10:30:07 GMT

Who really knows? The jury is still out on HAARP, yet it is in use. Is it burning holes in our atmosphere, perhaps changing our climate and adding to global warming? Oh no, nothing to worry about at all. The truth is, they really don't know or they're not going to tell us.

What about the Philidelphia Experiment? Oh, I forgot, that really never happened and a man named Tesla never exsisted.

Keep opening Pandor's box and see what comes out. What really is our quest?

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Mike Abundo, Quezon City, Philippines — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 10:45:52 GMT

I say we switch it on and see what happens. The Web began as a CERN project; nothing they can cook up could possibly be more disruptive than that.

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Lem Shattuck, Newton, MA — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 10:59:41 GMT

Far more likely is that some of these odd wavicles will leave our region at near lightspeed, and be detected in a few thousand years as evidence of true civilization on our planet. The society that find them will come to greet us. And then eat us all.

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Peter Quintin MA — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 11:15:31 GMT

A good way to go, pursuing knowledge. Not whining before some mythical god in some corrupt church. I say fire it up also.

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Brian Hechinger, Philadelphia, PA — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 11:27:07 GMT

nuclear safety officer != physicist

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Robert Proulx , Gwinn, Michigan — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 11:28:58 GMT

Yew folks and yer new fangled cyance our goin too make gsus mad!!! The only blak holes I know about are the ones in my fancy new outdoor terlet!!

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jophan — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 11:34:58 GMT

I say let them go ahead and fire. think of all the cool things that could have been around if nichola tesla hadn't gotten shut down the way he did.

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SpOkEn AgAiN,Somewhere,S.C. — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 11:45:24 GMT

Fear of the unknown has always slowed us down. This is
nonsense. This suit should not even be entertained.
By the way.........beware the quarks!!

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Milton Billingsley, Santa Monica, CA. — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 11:50:15 GMT

Before time became time God took care of this question. We live as a necessary part of the universe, far be it that if this experiment is dangerous God will not allow it to happen.
Maybe this is a way of ridding the world of the near proximity of morons on the French/Swiss border.
Smiles, SM,Ca

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Larouche Pal, Former Industrial Heartland, Michigan — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 11:55:00 GMT

To those of you making your doctoral dissertations here in this comment area - get a life!
To the rest of you defending scientific inquiry I say, don't let the morons get you down - they still think CO2 causes warming of the earth and not the sun.

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michael — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 12:01:39 GMT

Maybe, John Titor was for real.

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Bob Cass — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 12:15:45 GMT

When the atom bomb was unleashed, did anyone know about the radiation that killed thousands down wind?? Never say Never.

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Rob — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 12:23:27 GMT

A Special Message to Mr. Barry Cohen of Los Angeles:
You, as usual, have your facts wrong. The edge of the Earth is NOT in Cancun.
It's over by Vera Cruz. It tends to move around a bit, depending on how many spaceships are docked in Area 51. Please get your facts straight.

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Kenneth Scharf, Miami Fl — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 12:23:29 GMT

"There is a theory that if we ever figure out the workings of the universe it will be instantly replaced by something even more weird. There is another theory that this has already happened!" The Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy.

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Andy Whackk — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 12:35:29 GMT

This LHC thing is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. The defenders of this grand nonsense will attest to only and only theoretical proof that none of the situations proposed by Wagner and Sancho will occur. Guess what, theory is never ever accurate, be it in engineering, physics, chemistry or any sciences.

The sciences itself have never been extremely accurate, always relying on probabilistic or approximate assumptions or whatnot. I've been in engineering long enough to know this for a fact. That the scientists are defending this, with THEORY, is more than just absurd.

We must never believe or take chance with theoretical evidence of whatever kind. If those goons really start the joke of a machine just to answer questions of God that have loooonng been answered by religion, only to end up destroying the world, then let's see where these self-righteous, self-preserving, and science-crazed desperados can run and hide their butts. That's right, nowhere. Unless space is home for their minds..

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Mike, RI — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 12:48:32 GMT

"Jackson cited the example of Paul Dixon, a _psychology professor_ at the University of Hawaii at Hilo who has been saying for more than a decade that experiments at Fermilab's Tevatron accelerator are in danger of touching off an artificial supernova."

Citing the opinion of a psychology professor in this matter is like going to a podiatrist when you need a dentist.

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John Mouse — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 12:58:16 GMT

Can someone explain to me how any US federal court could in anyway have influence over CERN in the least?
They dont have any!

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Julie, Washington, DC — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 13:04:15 GMT

Some of you don't take this seriously as the Atom bomb wasn't and we did not know the extensive damage at the time either. I am sure if the scientist new how much destruction they were creating they would not have done it or at least been more cautious.

Prevention is much safer rather than finding a solution for the problem after the fact if a black whole is created.

I do think the doomsday thought is extreme but being cautious of what these people are creating is protecting all mankind not just us.

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RS, Hartford CT — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 13:06:16 GMT

The likelihood of a doomsday scenario taking place sounds as likely as me disappearing at this very mo

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WILLIE ROUNDTREE III, KILLEEN, TEXAS — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 13:12:34 GMT

DON'T FORGET ABOUT DISRUPTIONS IN THEE EARTH'S (CORE)!

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Xpress, Belfast, UK — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 13:19:38 GMT

We should not turn our ONLY Home (i.e. the Earth) into some sorts of exotic laboratory. Do it at the International Spaca Station will be a good idea i believe.

XPress
---------
http://www.nvologistic.com

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Cuthbert Shaw — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 13:26:39 GMT

Wagner is no more a nuclear safety officer than I'm santa claus, he's a tin hat wearing loon. If his theories had any merit at all he would have had them published years ago. He tried to have a similar experiment shutdown at Brookhaven and failed then, the same will happen this time.

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A. McReady, Aberdeen — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 13:35:59 GMT

Isn't Homer Simpson a nuclear safety officer?

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Joe Holland, Chalfont PA — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 13:43:56 GMT

Now that I think about it, it could be possible that our satellites in orbit might cause a near earth comet to deflect enough to crash into our planet and cause a global mass extinction. It is because of that I believe we should cease launching satellites and begin the process of recovering all the space junk in orbit and beyond. We should also find a way to cause the Voyager probes to self-destruct. (Who knows what chaos they will cause in the Oort Cloud) The risk of total annihilation, while incredibly small, far outweighs their contributions to science and making life better on Earth.
And if not for our sake, then for the children.

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noneya — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 13:49:09 GMT

You know why the courts are getting involved, right? It's because the US government see's this as something beyond their control and they can't have that! Better yet, if there's money to be made in it, they better be getting their share or SHUT IT DOWN. That's pretty much the consensus right? The theories being proposed here regarding the damage that may be done are just as preposterous as the WMD over in Iraq that Bush continues to claim pose such a threat to the world. It's about time the US government just takes a back seat to progress.

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Shelly, Americus, GA — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 13:49:34 GMT

What everyone here could really benefit from knowing is that there will definitely eventually be a doomsday, and we have no control over when that will be or how it will come. The only control we have is over how prepared we are spiritually for that day. All else matters not. Scientists may say that the earth is billions of years old and that it was created by some big bang, but in fact there is only one who would know and that is the creator Himself - God. Deny your self and what you think you know and hold on to what is true. Reconcile yourselves to Jesus Christ while you still have time. You never know when the breath you take may be your last. I'd hate to be wrong if I believed there was no God and no consequences. Burning in hell would be a seriously bad afterthought. Just a different point of view on the whole thing. God bless you all!

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Pierre Charland, Iselin, NJ — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 13:51:39 GMT

You should be more worried about an al qaeda plane crashing into your building. We know they are coming. Why even worry about anything else which may or may not be possible?

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Brian Hufe, Newark DE — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 13:57:02 GMT

I think the main thing being missed is that these experiments are producing energies close to the energies present just after the Big Bang. If the entire universe was once at this energy level, these crazy exotic particles would have been abundant and any run away reaction would have already happened. It is more likely that the current state of matter is the one that caused a run away reaction than what these whack-jobs are suggesting.

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Rob — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:06:09 GMT

PLUG IT IN!!
David. Those that didn't fear the lightning got killed. ;)
I'm fairly certain anybody who knows anything substantial about this machine or its function ISN'T here blogging.
Just a hunch.

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filepromptdotcom — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:06:27 GMT

hopefully they will find the earth is flat, and there was no evolution, so I can sleep more soundly at night

www.fileprompt.com

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Dan Bass Wetumpka, Alabama — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:07:08 GMT

I predict this devise will create a time portal and we will be able to go back and shake our great-grandfathers hand. Well this theory makes as much sense as the rest! I do recommend we wait until after 2012 before you turn it on just to be safe. No need to push it!
Beam me up Scottie.

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dennis, DFW texas — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:18:44 GMT

i have no knowledge of this LHC. what exactly is it going to help with? will it make life here on earth more enjoyable? will it make us a better person? or does this suck more money out of our taxes? who funds these things? what is it that we need to know more of, than what we already have. how much money do we need to spend to find where we came from? we are already here and we are already messing up our lives now. like i said, i have no knowledge of the LHC but should we be looking for answer for today problems?

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Dan S, Charlotte NC — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:23:17 GMT

Does anyone remember all the doomsayers back in 1999? All this stuff is extremely contagious to the general public. The general public on a whole is dumb. The media thrives at this kind of story because it makes them money. No one wants to read about all the great advances in particle physics that have come due to working with these giant coliders, its not sensational, it doesn't sell papers. Just reading through the comments you can see people jumping up and down about the doomsday stuff. Leave these worries to the physicists on the project, this has no reason to be in US court anyway. We will eventually blow ourselves up, I just always thought it would be a war. Leave the ideas and comments to people who understand the issues. More of the usual tying our court systems up with frivolous stupid lawsuits.

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Brian Gibson, Jacksonville, FL — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:24:01 GMT

It will be impossible to know if the doomsday scenarios are possible, equally impossible to legislate away the possibility. It is much more realistic to ensure that LHC's power up process is built with safety checks not only for the equipment but also with an analysis of potentially destabilizing particles.

I don't see why this should cause a problem for anybody. The test process can also be reviewed by independent sources and understood by the general public.

All the public needs is an assurance from the top scientists that they will be looking for these types of problems.

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Mark Morgan, Stillwater, Oklahoma — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:28:20 GMT

It would take way to much energy to create magnetic monopoles or strangelests; let alone the mass to produce a run-away blackhole that could sustain itself. Most doomsayers tend to fear the unknown or uncertainty, but sciences have been based off those two factors.

We are constantly being bombarded by Anti-Matter, which is practically harmless if you come to think about it. Even if we manage to create one single atom of anti-matter which ways 100 times more than a normal atom, it is still not enough to cause any damage to anyone at all.

In my opinion, the only thing we could do is, manage to create a window into another dimension which would allow us more resources and knowledge on how the universe could work as well. Doomsayers should know by now, being afraid of the unknown, we would never been able to get to where we are now.

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Dunex — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:32:58 GMT

Lawsuit?
American idiots.

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Geekwar, Burlington, NC — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:39:09 GMT

Doomsday scenarios are occurring all around us all the time both controlled and not by our own actions. We're all going to die, and the planet is going to stop feeding our hungry mouths sooner or later.

This is the chance for some of the biggest accomplishments in space and dimensional science in a long time! I say "build a bigger black hole!" because if we can harness and understand it, we can use it! That's what science is defined by.

This may be one of our saving graces, but it will be ruined by the same people involved in our developing problems that are in our every day lives already.

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Brian N.C. — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:45:24 GMT

You have to respect the fear. It's a counter balance. Unfortunately it had horrible a spin-off like religion. If this helps promote science in a way that disproves following myths in order to think of ourselves as good people rather than understanding it's a choice, then I'm all for it. Maybe we can start teaching the science of living together as a species rather than the thought we are all mystical creatures waiting for the next dimension with a god. Fire it up and maybe it will take out the delusional society that has evolved thus far.

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no more plastic bottles — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:49:07 GMT

Tiny black holes... Good lets fill them with all our trash...

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Jonathan, Baltimore MD — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:52:13 GMT

From a religious point of view it is impossible for Scientists to destroy the Earth no matter how hard they'd try or not. Scientists don't have that power. However it is imperiative that we explore all scenarios. Its the most responsible thing to do. After all this is the only place we have to call home in the universe. It's not like we could fly to a second Earth if something catastrophic did happen.

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Matthew, Denver,CO — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:58:03 GMT

The claims are unfounded. The risk is so small that to debate the issue is an exercise in futility. What we should be worried aboout is the continued testing and development of nuclear weapons. We know that these can destroy the world and yet we continue to stockpile and develope more advanced ways to kill eachother. Nothing good can come from the mutual destruction of civilization that will follow a nuclear attack.

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Teresa Williad, St Louis — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 15:05:33 GMT

Lots of people on both sides with their fingers in their ears yelling "La La La la I can't hear you!"

The science says that such disasters are extremely unlikely.

However, Marvin Lipford's point is well taken--- the number of such high-energy collisions that have naturally occurred in a mass-rich environment is very low, so the probability of exotic outcomes cannot be eliminated by pointing at the fact that it occasionally happens in the high atmosphere. Of course, the LHC will have near-vaccuum conditions in its operating environment, or it couldn't maintain the particle beams.

The good news is, if we were wrong, we'll never know it.

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TheFallibleFiend, LORTON, VA — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 15:13:35 GMT

"We need Dr. Gordon Freeman in charge of this project."
hehehe! I second that! To whom do we write to get the ball rolling?

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Aaron — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 15:14:16 GMT

If you say it enough, you can convince yourself that the LHC is a doomsday device.

You can also say the same then about the first Fission reaction at Univ. of Chicago.

Or how about people who said CT scans would fry your insides?

Grow up people, we all gotta die someday, I'd rather die in the name of Science than say in the name of passive lethargy.

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Ken, Hamilton, NJ — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 15:26:33 GMT

Something tells me that the US government is behind this lawsuit. They certainly don't want their fledging scientific reputation to go down even further. If someone going to make a discovery, it has to be here in the US from their point of view.

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Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 15:30:37 GMT

Isn't this issue exactly the same as the Y2K scare? Also, black holes are the result of infinite gravitational collapse, at least in stars of a minimum diameter. I'd sure like to see the explanation as to how micro-scopic or quantum black holes arise due to a collision of atomic size particles.

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You don't really know anything, and I know that — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 15:44:04 GMT

It is easy to be arrogant if you will never know that you were wrong.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Harry, Cypress CA — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 15:50:02 GMT

People, we need to get serious about these threats!

More importantly, there are much greater threats in our everyday lives! I understand that many of our personal transportation devices operate by means of burning an extremely flammable fluid which, given the right circumstances can explode violently! It is possible that an explosion of the MANY gallons carried by one of these transportation devices could set off a chain reaction of explosions in surrounding vehicles, creating a fireball that could sweep across the entire nation! The possibility is slim, but we MUST, in respect to generations unborn, remove this possible threat to civilization!
Moreover, it has come to my attention that many people's dwellings AND places of employment are supplied with an extremely dangerous form of energy, which is made available through multiple "outlets" at various points in the building. This energy is of sufficient power to injure and even kill a person! We owe it to our children to remove this danger before a single person more is harmed.
Science is a dangerous folly. The mere act of performing an experiment without knowing exactly what the outcome will be in every case is the greatest hubris. Unexpected events are the breeding ground for danger, and doing ANYTHING that can result in an unknown outcome is simply inviting disaster. No matter how small the chances, risking an unknown outcome in any part of life is to doom the human race to extinction.

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Ryan, San Diego, CA — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 15:50:20 GMT

Do away with the lawsuits. Let the real scientists do real work. I know they will make amazing discoveries about the young universe. Let uneducated morons remain afraid of this device. Its quite funny, actually.

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Griefhead, Richmond, VA — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:01:18 GMT

Exactly what are the huge benefits to mankind that are being mentioned in this article and comments? Do you really think that individual freedom will be advanced in any way? There is no practical use for this information except for the development of endless theories by the authorities, who are clueless.

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Malcolm Furgol, Washington, DC — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:11:51 GMT

I am not an alarmist and I don't mean to encourage it in others, but wasn't this the plot in the video game Half-Life and its sequels that led to alien life forms conquering the planet? To be honest that sounds like the best worst case scenario as these others sound down right terrifying as there is absolutely nothing to be done if they occur (and no contingency plan possible to contain the damage if the worst happens). Not to sound nutty, but isn't this the kind of stuff we could be doing in space somewhere far away from the all important Earth, Sun and Moon? I realize that means we would have to wait a while for these experiments, but isn't a bit of patience worth saving the potential end of the world from happening? I guess these experiments could be what leads us to discovering faster than light space travel though, so I guess we are stuck in a catch-22. Honestly I don't know enough to rule on this situation (nor do many others), but I do find it worrisome that whatever happens the vast majority of the world will have no chance to impact a decision that could change (or end) everyone's lives forever.

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Gary Royse City, Tx — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:14:34 GMT

Think of the unexplained gamma-ray burst at the edge of the universe. Wonder if they had a big toy! Or just a random hit.

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Zach — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:18:08 GMT

Besides, who cares if they happen to destroy the earth? The worst thing that could happen is that we all die.

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C. Whitman Toledo, Ohio — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:23:56 GMT

The negative attitude towards science has slowed human progression for the past 20 centuries. I find it sad that we still have a platform where idiots can
bring law suits on things they do not understand.
As I recall there have been people screeming that science was taking us to the brink for over a hundred years now. By the way Lana it was not men of science that thought the idea of a round planet was ridiculous, it was the doctrine of the church.
Craig

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John Kile, Rising Sun MD — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:24:20 GMT

Just a quick note. I have seen a good deal of reference here to Stephen Hawking as if he is the great scientist of all time. Although he is a bright guy, if you we to rate the top 100 scientist of the last 100 years he would not make the list. He is a media darling but as for ground breaking science his resume is surely lacking.

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Gordon Freeman, Xen — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:26:43 GMT

Prepare for unforeseen consequences

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Concerned citzen, Germany — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:39:43 GMT

Could this explain the Fermi paradox? Maybe at some point all alien civilizations tried this experiment and annihilated themselves.

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RE, Lebanon, PA — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:39:46 GMT

The 'Bravo Shot' - largest nuclear detonation of a hydrogen bomb carried out in the Bikini islands had U.S. scientists frightened that they had triggered a cascade effect that was about to burn off the earth's atmosphere when it was occurring. These were very intelligent scientists who didn't have enough knowledge to fully predict what would happen - they were working based on theory. As a world community we've agreed that setting off hydrogen bombs of that magnitude is dangerous both in the short and long term. Maybe the only option seen by people in these fields to a lack of knowledge is first hand experience. If the Europeans are okay with the theoretical safety of the device maybe we all should be. I think the former inhabitants of the Bikini islands have a different view of this logic.

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Seeker — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:46:51 GMT

This has been interesting reading. Question - who will define what "Relatively safe" means? I argue that it is not possible to judge the "safety" of a "possibility". We base risk upon observed occurrences and hypothesize on the "probability". The probability of an occurrence is an emotional construct not a demonstrable fact. Science attempts to remove the emotion from the argument and replace it with evidence, documented and repeatable. Unfortunately the same isn't true for Religion.
Before any underwriters pounce, remember that actuarial tables are based upon evidence, not supposition or conjecture. If an action has never before occurred, you cannot assign a risk or probability to the effects of that action - you can merely present conjecture. "I think" instead of "I know". I am not a scientist, a philosopher or a theologian. I am a human being who shares the traits of inquiry and curiosity all humans are born with. If it is our destiny to evaporate to nothing when the LHC comes online - so be it, I made my peace with my maker a long time ago. If you are truly afraid that this next step in our understanding of the universe will destroy you and all you love - consult your maker. If your fear is based in the uncertainty of your future and doubt as to your acceptability into "heaven" - go to your place of worship - you will be welcome there.
Bottom line - If Adam hadn't been curious about that apple... neither you nor I would be here today.

I cannot wait to see what the LHC will discover.

Knowledge is powerful - learn and enjoy.

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Bill Fisher, Palo Alto, CA — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:48:26 GMT

Anyone who thinks "we the people" have a say on major issues should learn some history or at least consult many old people. "Free Speech", read "money and power", propaganda has either fooled all the people some of the time or fooled some of the people all the time.

If public figures were as cautious as the scientific community, there would not be any wars.

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hopefull lancaster California — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 17:00:46 GMT

Most folks like life, without the Earth being popped like a big pimple. Those who really want to check out that bad, can do so on there own time, and if global warming is our demise, at least it gives us time to see who becomess President. SLOW YOUR ROLL. p.s WHY HAS THERE BEEN SO MANY UFO SIGHTINGS IN TEXAS

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Kurlee, Anderson, SC — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 17:05:02 GMT

I think that my new washer is way ahead of this LHC. The spin cycle is so fast, it's producing a black hole in my laundry room and eating up my socks.

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Scott M. Boardman Oh — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 17:10:23 GMT

I think we could make wonderful discoveries. Do and learn, don't and live in fear. Look at the atom bomb, it was thought that the kind of chain reaction it could create from splitting an atom would destroy the world too.

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gerrrg, portland, or — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 17:14:45 GMT

'They' said asbestos was a good insulator. 'They' said teflon doesn't stick. 'They' said DDT kills bugs. 'They' said a lot of things. What 'they' don't say is what 'they' don't know. What 'they' don't know is what results from the Law of Unintended Consequences.
The Law of Unintended Consequences is a corollary to The Path to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions.

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ken smith-sault ste marie ON. Canada — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 17:28:39 GMT

someone told me way back in the 60s that drinking milk would kill me. 77yrs old now and still drinking milk.send this article to GWB and title it as a weapon of mass destruction

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robert jensen, grayslake, IL — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 17:35:27 GMT

I am reminded of those who refused to believe there were invisible creatures which could have devastating effects on us. Even after the microscope was invented they kept saying that the animacules seen through it were "optical illusions".

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Ken McFarlane, Yorktown, VA — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 17:45:45 GMT

Ultra-high energy cosmic rays (with center of mass energies above the LHC energy) hit Earth, Jupiter, and the other planets about ten million times a second. The planets are still here after 4 billion years. For the LHC to equal that 'test', it would have to run for 40 million years. There's a good chance we'd be hit by an asteroid sooner.

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Bram Keranko — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 17:45:53 GMT

A black hole with a mass of a billion metric tons evaporates in a millionth of a second. Gravity travels roughly 300 metres in that time frame.

The mass of a 300 metre diameter sphere of granite weighs 75 megatons, which about a 925 megatons short of the weight necessary to sustain a black hole of that mass.

I'm unsure how the LHC is supposed to create a gigaton blackhole to begin with, but even if it did, only the scientiests would be in danger.

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Jory — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 17:57:38 GMT

Morons. It is human nature to be experimental. We wouldn't have cell phones, cars, or the computer you are typing on to complain about this if it wasn't for people conducting experiments to go above and beyond in our science and technology. So what? Let them do what they do best and solve the mysteries of the universe. Maybe they can find a way to save us all with a single exotic chunk of matter. Who knows. If it blows us up, it blows us up, not really different from the testing of the atom bomb. We're all doomed anywho, the world is going downhill anyways, read the news that is really troubling (Gas and food prices skyrocketing), not the LHC! Those should be our concerns.. Get a life!!!!!!!

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Drew Baltimore, MD — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 17:58:00 GMT

I too think that the outside chance of any negative outcome from this device is minimal at best. That being said, I do think that its worth taking the time to be as sure as possible that the machine is safe because if not, oops is just not going to cut it.

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Pepeton, Madrid, Spain — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 18:04:49 GMT

Yep, ignorance always sparks fear.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Patrick Bishop, Caldwell, NJ — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 18:21:14 GMT

I never really paid attention to the pic at the top of the article until just now. I gotta say, that thing looks like it was designed SPECIFICALLY to destroy the Earth.

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Koboldprime, Fort Hood (The Horrible Place) — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 18:23:31 GMT

To all the people mentioning Half-Life: IT'S FICTIONAL. It came from the minds of a Sci-fi writer and some video game designers. (That, and the experiment in the game was apparently sabotaged.)

If it ends the world, good. I'd rather die in the apocalypse than of some disease or another pointless war.

If the enviromentalists are right, we'll all die in a few thousand (million?) years of "global warming" (or whatever their terror-of-the-week is) anyway.

If the religous nuts are right, God could get fed up and kill us all any second.

People have been predicting doomsday since the dawn of time, this is no different than the Y2K scare to me.

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James, Iowa — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 18:26:28 GMT

Doomsday theories possible, yes. Probable, No! Our species has the ability to evolve and learn, then learn from the mistakes of our past accomplishments, or failures, in most cases.

With a degree in Computer Science and a spacial IQ over 200 the promises of what colliding two light protons at the speed of light to see the conditions that existed shortly after the big bang and the possibility of creating new matter, even for an atom of time is a once in a lifetime achievment.

Then again, if it fails and the doomsayers are right, it is still a once in a lifetime achievment, right?

To quote an old astronaut who quoted T.S. Elliot, "Only those who risk going to far can possibly find out how far they can go."

Whining will not stop progress... the Earth is not flat... go back to your caves...

Kirk and Spock... that was funny...

The paradox of the Big Bang, 13 billion years, Big Bang... 13 billion years, etc... very good reading... saw that in an episode of Dr. Who. Right idea though.

The discharge of the protons at the HLC could answer the only question I have never been able to answer about physics... "What created the Big Bang?"

Matter exists, therefore Antimatter exists. Nothing unreal exists (Star Trek fans know this one.) Matter can be changed from one form to another, solid to liquid to gas or steam, etc. but if nothing existed before the Big Bang, where did the Big Bang come from?

On the religious side, if God doesn't want man to run the HLC, then God had better stop it, because humans won't. Oh, I see on the calendar, God is busy next year... so sorry...

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Splint Chesthair, NY, NY — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 18:44:21 GMT

I only ask one thing. Let me know a few hours before they turn it on and start smashing things together. That will give me some time to be tender with the mrs. and have a few beers afterwards. Then, if something happens, I'll be raring to go, and if it doesn't, well, win-win.

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squ1dk1d, Canada — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 18:47:00 GMT

The ignorance and absolute arrogance of our culture is being put on display yet again.

Here's a scenerio..(hypothetical of course)

I grab a baseball bat and wait for an acclaimed "mainstream scientist" to leave work and head for his parked gas gusler.
He proceeds to his car as he does every day not knowing that some random squ1dk1d is waiting to show Ken Griffy what a real "homer" looks like.
The "scientist" turns the corner and boom..the bat collides with his head.
But he's alright..a little brain-damaged..but most is cosmetic.
So he files a suit against this kid.
While up on the stand the judge asks this kid what his defense for this crime could possibly be..
The kids looks the judge squarely in the eye and says
"well, he a scientist, right? He should have seen it coming!"

Don't get me wrong..i'm a science geek to the core but let's not let money(a completely flawed system in it's own) dictate our evolutionary steps.
Safety first
Yes, we do have the power to creat a plethora of doomsday scenerios. Unless history has lied

Remember 95% of "scientists" belive the sun has no effect on climate change.
And that we should pay off a politician and his cronies because they claim to be better money handlers then the free market.
But wait, didn't "Al gore" use gold bullion to illustrate money when compared to the planet?
Why, he must have been caught in one of the worm-holes we've made and is thinking we aren't on a fiat-money system.

Sorry for ranting, my good editor. I forecast that you'll be the only one reading this.
If not, then humanity may still have a chance ;o)

-squ1dk1d

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GH, Indiana — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 18:49:50 GMT

Science has done plenty of damage. Don't be caviler in your attitude of 'scientific discovery' as if it were something to be easily controlled. Ignorance kills:

Discovery of Radiation

Shortly after the discovery of x-rays in 1885 by Professor Roentgen, scientists began to notice the harmful effects of exposure to this radiation. It was, however, many years before people realized how dangerous x-rays and other radiation could be. Quite a number of pioneer radiologists suffered severe injuries, and some even died, as a result of prolonged exposure to dangerously high intensities of x-rays. These early workers in the field had no means of measuring the harm caused by radiation accurately and depended on unreliable effects such as the degree of skin reddening caused by the exposure, or on timing the exposure from a certain type of x-ray machine to establish quantity.

"Doomsday, nuclear, witches..." and all that...

"...now I am become Death [Shiva], the destroyer of worlds..." **Physicist** Robert Oppenheimer

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John Carter, Wichita, Kansas — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 18:54:48 GMT

Alert! An 800 foot Jesus just told me that if the LHC is put into use, Archangel Michael will be forced to destroy the earth lest our Milky Way become Chocolate Milky Way ... Ooops, got to go, my dilithium crystal needs recharging.

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Shelly, Americus, GA — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 18:57:55 GMT

I couldn't care less what happens and whether they turn this thing on or not. We as a people are called to have a voice, but what I say, or any one person for that matter, is not going to effect what these big agencies do. Especially when they are not even in our own country. I love my life and would like to continue to live it, but fear is nowhere in my life where doomsday is concerned because I have the assurance that I will have a place of peace and rest to go when some doomsday does come. Heaven is real, and I feel sorry for those who must live their lives through validating everything and trying to quiet those who believe in faith and God by some science experiment. Science is indeed a great great thing that God has allowed us to advance in; however, having said that, I will also say that all things science has accomplished are not the product of God, but instead the product of free will, and given our sinful nature, sometimes that can get a little hairy. Christians uniting through prayer, not arguments, or violence, is the best way to help in times like these. All things will come to light in God's time. For those of us who believe, we must remember that when the day comes, regardless of what you didn't believe, every knee will bow before the Lord Jesus. I saw a sign once that said "how will you spend eternity? Smoking or non-smoking?".

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Leonardo, Huntsville, Al — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 19:07:40 GMT

I understand the doomsday scenarios here; they are indeed quite impossible to occur, and even if the probabilities were higher I still think we should go forward and finally get some good understanding of our universe.

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Shaze, Vancouver, BC — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 19:19:57 GMT

This is our purpose, it's what we've been put here for (if you beleive in that nonsense).

We learn by making mistakes; you can't stop evolution.

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squ1dk1d, Planet Earth — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 19:21:24 GMT

" My wisdom is only limited by the awareness of my own ignorance." - Socrates

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Calgary, Canada — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 19:37:32 GMT

There always has to be someone to hold the rest of us back from Humanity's greatest achievments.

It is Human nature to fear the unknown, and when that fear is coupled with self righteousness we are left with stagnation and religion. Science is progression. People are scared of change.

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Kim G. Flegel, Regina, SK. Canada — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 19:40:32 GMT

I wish the courts would give that much attention to some real "Doomsday" issues like global warming, war, global food shortages, poverty, disease. What they are doing is a total waste of time, energy and money.

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M Darling — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 19:43:54 GMT

It's not a vote. "fire it up" "study it more'

You are entitled to an opinion.
But from a heuristical perspective- if you say "ooh, that sounds bad- let's study it some more" then you must also agree that we should reduce carbon emissions to levels found in some earlier, human friend; era. I mean- global warming sounds bad- let's study the emissions question some more.
Like wise- "hey, whatever- fire it up" trivializes the research done to date and the scientific process.
The research points to a need to do it to advance the field in a meaningful way. The process suggests that a well designed experiment will reveal useful inf.

I propose that the lawsuit is based on two related factors, neither having to do with the negative outcome possibilities they postulate.
First- a desire for attention and influence. And staking a claim to the greatest "i told you so" possible.

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Luke Turvey, Kagawa, Japan — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 19:49:27 GMT

As far as I've understood, a black hole --however small-- will try to attract to the nearest large mass. Due to these one's small size, they will have too little energy to absorb even one proton, and thus will propel towards the nearest large body.

So micro-black holes will, by default, tend to be pulled into the center of the Earth. Being so unpowerful, one or even a fair size accumulation of these would slowly absorb the Earth from its core, but at such a rate that it would take billions of years to consume our planet. (The sun will super-nova anyways first.)

In fact, they are so laughably unpowerful that they could consume nothing by their own force. However, the entire gravitational energy of the earth will be pressing down on them at an incredible density, force-feeding them the earth's mass, due to their location. Yet they will still struggle to absorb even individual atoms, mainly due to the fact that most of matter is nothing, so they will rarely come in contact with anything.

Needless to say, the only real danger, I think, comes from having a "critical mass" (whatever amount that may be) of micro-black holes come together to substantially expiate this process.

A good precaution may be to monitor seismic activity, planetary wobbles, etc... and stop if we see any abnormal patterns developing. If CERN was stopped at this point, perhaps it would not be too late.

Another good precaution might be, if possible, to design the experiments involving such, so that the velocity & angle of departure sends them far out of our solar system -- sort of like not pointing a firecracker at your face when you light it off. Out of orbit is not far enough away, as the critical mass affect still applies if they all end up in the Sun, or Jupiter. We want these little guys sent far away!

To all the scientists at CERN, I say go for it & more power to you, and good luck solving the universe's mysteries! However, please be careful, I like living on this planet very much.

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Tarek Mourad - São Paulo, Brazil. — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 20:03:20 GMT

Dear scientists,
Do go ahead with the experiment, I only have one thing to ask of you. When you blast away with this huge microwave oven, could you not point it straight to Brazil?! Thanks.

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Jem, Singapore — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 20:03:21 GMT

if the theory of 'singularity', aka blackhole is sound, it doesn't matter the size of the said 'singularity' to be of any size to spark off major gravity sucking. all u need is something to start the motion of things... or 'sucking' of things which will suck in stuff to fuel itself into a major catastropical phenomena.

p.s. the idiot script writer of spiderman (2?) has the mini-sum falling into the waters to cool it off? what a joke. water is H20, and after being 'plasma-fied' by the 'mini-sun' becomes sun-fuel itself to help it grow, i was waiting (in the show) for the Earth to go ... shrink-size n a second sun to appear in our solar system. i mean, be realistic, this is so obvious. bunch of idiots, wait, make that bloated-head idiots. look what too much studying got them into, we only got 1 Earth, dudes! play ur risky toys NOT in this galaxy P_L_E_A_S_E!!

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Indiomar José Soares, biguaçu, santa catarina — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 20:03:37 GMT

é posivel viajar no tempo com essa maquina nao sofrer nenhum tipo de efeito colateral?

[Alan adds: Rough translation from Portuguese would be: "Is it possible to travel in time with this scheme in order to suffer no collateral effect?" Portuguese-speakers are free to correct my Babelfish translation.]

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Luke Turvey, Kagawa, Japan — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 20:14:01 GMT

Not to be overly negative on this, but is CERN perhaps being backed primarily by military funding, like most big scientific advances have been in the past? If black holes are expected to naturally collapse, could not an intermediate size one be a great weapon? Aren't the wonderful new resultant technologies likely to see first light of day on the battlefield?

Collapse another soldier, army, city, or whatnot to nothing, then the black hole simply evaporates... no messy side effect like nukes. This could be another one for the arsenal.

There surely are numerous highly beneficial uses to be developed from this, so let's go ahead, but let's try to avoid the likely weaponization.

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Thomas Ashby., Calgary — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 20:42:33 GMT

I hope the French go on a 24 hr. "spot the UFO" vigil in the vacinity around LHC as they get closer to zero hour.

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S. P-K, Knoxville, TN — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 20:46:04 GMT

Those who fear the Doomsday aspect of this should pay particular attention to this part of the article:

"Saying something is absolutely impossible doesn't always come easy. Some scientists find it difficult to state categorically that such-and-such a theoretical catastrophe has no chance of happening, and Fermilab spokeswoman Judy Jackson told me that the doomsayers have "cynically distorted" that natural reluctance to rule out even the most outlandish theoretical possibilities."

One of the key practices of science is attempting to determine the probability of different possible outcomes. Scientists also puts a high value on communicating in a technically accurate manner. When "possible" is used in everyday speech it often carries a strong connotation of "likely". In the scientific community “possible” only means that a scenario can not be proven impossible. Even if a systematic inquiry finds that there is only a 1 in 100000000000000 chance of an event's occurrence, technically the event is still “possible”, but in everyday speech many events with even better odds are spoken of as “impossible”.

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Bo Gritz — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 20:51:11 GMT

These experiments will only increase global warming which is going to kill all human life in the next few years. Let us delay these experiments so we may live a few more years. It is our job as humans to control the earths climate.

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Alec West — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 21:05:31 GMT

Lessee if I've got this right. The collider is located near the Swiss border ... and the lawsuit was filed in Hawaii. How much effect would a U.S. District Court restraining order have on an operation that exists on foreign soil? Who would serve such an order? Mr. Wagner has set himself up to be a first class schlemazel from the get go. If he wins a restraining order, it will be ignored in Europe since the lab itself is outside the jurisdiction of the court. But, as they say, "anybody can sue anybody."

Here's a thought. Wagner wins his lawsuit. The lab ignores the order. Wagner is right - and as a result, the Hawaiian court is gobbled up by a singularity ... forcing the court to order a monetary settlement in Wagner's favor in (woo woo) another dimension ... where the Hawaiian court ALSO has no jurisdiction.

Hehe. I'm not a scientist. But, I have faith that CERN scientists would not undertake such an operation without years of prior research and appropriate safeguards. To believe otherwise would mean that every scientist involved in the project is suicidal ... which I don't believe for a minute. And heck, if Wagner is right, what a way to go.

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rob — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 21:22:44 GMT

Well, they're hoping these black holes will dissolve because of Hawking Radiation, but quite a few physicists disagree with that theory. So the main issue is if the black holes don't dissolve will they fly into space? or is the accretion time of the earth so slow that it will barely take much time out of the earths life. or will they just eat us up at a rapid rate? Nobody knows s*** about blackholes, everything is a theory right now.

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Frank — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 22:21:39 GMT

This is an example of what is wrong with the Tort system in America. We need a "loser pays" system where the plaintiffs have to pay penalties for filing frivolous suits.

If the odds of it destroying the world were a one in a million chance, you could run the machine 50 times and still have a better than 99.99% chance of not destroying the world.

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TheFallibleFiend, LORTON, VA — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 22:25:14 GMT

"To all the people mentioning Half-Life..."
We know that...it's a joke...lighten up.

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Pretty Riled Physicist — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 22:46:57 GMT

Getting a bit sick of these dumb calls being made by people who 1) dont know anything about science except the hearsay from various crackpot scientists (lol magneticmonopoles, do you even know WHY there is none? try having a current without moving charges and then we'll talk about them.) 2)doomsday fears from the only nation to drop nukes on OTHER PEOPLE get off their high horse and let the people who have some uncertain amount of clue about this do their jobs, they are here to fix you, not break you.

Also. The entirety of physics is pretty much based on uncertainty, so when you go around saying how unsure we are of things you are really making us laugh. Of course we don't know but we can tell you this. God ain't gonna stop us, hasn't yet, and when he does it will be of his design and nothing we can do will stop it, you never know we may be fullfilling the book right now. Learn your own scripture, shut up and Grow up.

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SWVandeCarr Las Vegas, NV — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 22:46:59 GMT

Is there a finite probablity that the computer I'm typing this on will explode due to a giant quantum fluctuation? If there is, I want to sue somebody.

SW VandeCarr Las Vegas, NV

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JORU, BARCELONA, SPAIN — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 22:50:34 GMT

It is incredible that here on Earth, could create such structures ... I am completely fascinated!
See you!

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

jj — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 23:41:06 GMT

Oh no,,,,the AntiChrist!

Douglas Preston, Blasphemy

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Wankers — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 23:56:10 GMT

why are you people so afraid to die? If you wont bet against the odds posed by the LHC i cant imagine you ever crossing a street...
ohh but ALL of humanity would die, yeah yeah, but if we dont (die) we might actually get to know enough to claim to have lived...

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Marvin Lipford, Port Charlotte FL — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 00:05:56 GMT

Thanks Ken McFarlane for putting some numbers to my question about CM energies of ultra-high energy cosmic rays...

"Ultra-high energy cosmic rays (with center of mass energies above the LHC maximum energy hit Earth, Jupiter, and the other planets about ten million times a second. The planets are still here after 4 billion years. For the LHC to equal that 'test', it would have to run for 40 million years."

So the experimental data supports the conclusion that interactions of 28TEV do NOT create planet swallowing black holes -- or any other global catastrophe.

Wonder why the LHC risk assessment panel hasn't said the same thing?

IF the numbers are right, then as a lapsed physicist ( now computer analyst ), I am satisfied that the risk is vanishingly small and that the LHC is "mostly harmless".

But as a matter of prudence, total energy should be ramped up in small, increments looking for weirdness like a sudden disappearance of the dolphins )

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Eddie, San Jose, CA — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 00:07:27 GMT

There is less chance of creating a long-lived black hole than of Abbie Hoffman levitating the Pentagon. And he's been dead for 20 years.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Matthew — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 00:07:49 GMT

It is not worth constructing technology that can be used to destroy the entire world. In fact doing so should be prohibited. We can hardly trust governments with nuclear weapons, yet we're willing to trust anyone, or any group, with something that could be used to destroy the planet?
And I don't mean accidents - if it could be deliberately used for these things, it should be dismantled before someone does it, or someone gains control of it.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Shine on, dimly lit ones, shine on! — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 00:10:13 GMT

Some comments posted here seem to assume that the LHC was haphazardly assembled by some 11th grade science fanatics with legos and duct tape.

The fact that the device exists is testament to the expertise of the involved parties. This is not the first particle collider, people.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Rick. Columbia, MO — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 00:14:08 GMT

When the first atom bomb was exploded in New Mexico, there were fears that the explosion might ignite the atmosphere. They turned out to be false, or did they?

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Adam — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 00:39:40 GMT

When is the civilian version going to be released. I'd buy one.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Curoius , Quakertown, PA — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 00:42:23 GMT

The point in history when a person first looked up at night and asked; “What are those lights in the sky?” is the precise moment when our universe first became self-aware. Every single point of light in the night sky was an attempt by a living universe to create humanity and provide the means to ask; “What am I?” It took an incalculable number of those attempts (and by some accounts 12 to 16 billion years) before our Earth and then the first human began their existence. Incredible perseverance… it should not be any wonder how we got ours.

A question that has been asked over time is; “If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around to hear it…does it make a sound?” The answer to that question is a profound; “No!” Only a human can conceivably comprehend that the lifespan of a tree is limited, then as part of a natural living recycling process countless factors weaken a tree’s trunk and then ultimately gravity will bring it to the ground. The snapping of wood, interference coming down, displacement of air caused by movement and the force of a tree hitting earth will make detectable audible waves that a human ear can detect (or sound). Nothing else in our universe that we currently know of can put that sequence together and say the falling tree did in fact, make a sound.

The universe is as much a gift to us…as we are to it. Our race should never stop exploring and contemplating that gift. The universe will only continue to exist until the last human takes their final breath.

Our journey through history has proven: We must not fear where we tread, but often stop treading because of fear. Lest this doomsday scenario be our fate...I don't think fear will matter. Let the scientists be scientists and "The Universe" determine our fate!

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

little john — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 00:42:28 GMT

all we need is faith in god, and not crazy physicists.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Alexander Gee, Christchurch, New Zealand — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 00:45:19 GMT

No risk no gain? And there is so much to gain.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Nate,Kokomo, Indiana — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 00:50:21 GMT

I tell ya what, they built this thing, it cracked, so they rebuilt it. If LHC comes out this summer and says, OK we'll wait until we're sure, Im goin to slip the janitor 50 bucks to go in and flip the switch, cause I just gotta know NOW!

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

ravingdaveone — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 00:52:41 GMT

Speaking as a physicist with over forty years of study and research behind me, all I have to say is if a Black Hole is formed, I hope it doesn't let all the air out of the earth.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Sat, 29 Mar 2008 00:54:10 GMT

We all know what happened when we built the first Tower Of Babel...

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Noko — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 01:00:14 GMT

"No such impact has ever been seen. Therefore, no doomsday."

That's a complete logical fallacy. You can't 'see' air, but is it not there?

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Russ Birdran — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 01:26:33 GMT

Has anyone ever wondered why we haven't found evidence of intelligent life in the rest of the Universe?

Maybe after intelligent life gets to the point of sending out radio waves, it quickly thereafter reaches the point that it accidentally finds some way to destroy itself. Maybe CO2 won't get us, maybe a super collider will first!

Arguing that because we haven't destroyed ourselves yet, although many have raised concerns that we will is a bit like the inductivist jumping off a tall building. As they go down they say: "19 Floor, everything fine. 18th Floor, everything fine. 17th Floor, everthing fine. ..." If we had already destroyed ourselves we wouldn't be here to discuss the possibility. That we haven't doesn't mean we won't.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Patrick — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 01:32:11 GMT

Every time a species builds an LHC a Gamma Ray Burst is born. Awww, how cute....
No but seriously this objection is a bunch of crap. We don't do nearly enough science in our society, the last thing we need to do is stop one of our most promising projects.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Seantóir, Kildare, Ireland — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 01:33:16 GMT

I would like to know who these anti-scientific Luddites Wagner and Sancho really are, and what unutterable hubris leads them to think that a US Court has any authority to issue an injunction against a European organisation of which the US is not a member? Just what is their real agenda?

In addition, to the person that said he hoped that it would be stopped I say: Friend, go find a globe. Look for Europe. Can you see that it's not part of the US? If you don't get the significance of that then hear this - US Law does not apply, and US courts have no jurisdiction, in any sovereign country outside of the US itself. It would be in flagrant violation of the sovereignty of the twenty European member countries of CERN if the court accepts the case. Is that simple enough for you, or am I using too many syllables? :)

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Patrick — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 01:38:25 GMT

"so when physicists warn of the potential for strangelets and black holes on our own planet, perhaps we should take a deeper look"

Physicists aren't making these warnings, its two loons and a psychology professor...physicists think people that want to stop the LHC are ignorant luddites.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Ricky, Sydney, Australia — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 01:47:10 GMT

When I was a child I looked forward to becoming an adult and experiencing everything life has to offer. Now that I'm a mature adult, I know my childhood visions of the life I would experience were at some point completely obliterated by the needs of my fellow man to conquer and master anything they can conceive of, at the expense of a harmonious and joyful life. We are all slaves to each other, and 5 days a week we are required to do things we (c'mon be honest) don't want to do, in servitude of others. This is true no matter who you are. I would much prefer to see experiments designed to improve our experience of life and enhance the short time we have in the world, rather than running evermore headlong into the dismal practice of understanding things that improve nothing for anybody. So what if the scientists discover that the Higgs Boson does exist and the standard model is refined? It will inevitably lead only to more of the same 20th century nonsense that the Earth is beginning to reject as a cancerous lesion that ultimately spells nothing but despair and illusion. I put these experiments in the same category as the experiments that resulted in the discovery of the combustion engine. Unnatural, foolhardy, and destined to enhance further the ridicule any future intelligent species will retrospectively direct to Mankind. What a waste of life that could otherwise be used to enhance and enjoy the magic of being.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Alan Boyle — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 02:05:48 GMT

Some folks are asking what the folks behind the LHC are looking for... I mentioned some of the mysteries already, but I'll admit that it's a little hard to see the practical application of finding the Higgs boson.

I've been talking with a few physicists about this issue in preparation for a longer story about the LHC, and I'll pass along some of the quotes here ... just to reward you for paging through all these comments to get here. ;-)

From CERN theoretical physicist John Ellis:

Question: "Has it gotten to the point where people can talk about potential applications of the discoveries that might be made at the LHC? I’m sure when the politicians approved this money, they said, OK, you found the Higgs boson, but what is the payoff? Is it going to lead to a limitless energy or other things that politicians like to talk about to their constituents?"

Ellis: "We don’t justify CERN or other big particle accelerator laboratories on the basis of spinoffs or technology transfer, or anything like that. Of course, we do have programs for that. Personally, I believe that the most important knowledge transfer that we can make is by training young people who then maybe go off and do something else. I think that’s probably more important than some particular technological widget that we may develop.

"I think the primary justification for this sort of science that we do is, fundamental human curiosity. I think people ever since the ancient Greeks and probably a long time before that have wanted to understand how matter is made up, how it behaves, where the universe comes from. And so we are responding, I think, to that continuing human urge. It’s true, of course, that every previous generation that’s made some breakthrough in understanding nature has seen those discoveries translated into new technologies, new possibilities for the human race. That may well happen with the Higgs boson. Quite frankly, at the moment I don’t see how you can use the Higgs boson for anything useful. But maybe I’m wrong. It’s particularly difficult to predict technological applications decades away in the future."

Question: "Anyone who’s tried to predict that something is not going to make a difference is generally proven wrong, going back to the Wright brothers, and people saying what would be the benefit of having airplanes, or any sort of technological innovation that leads to a breakthrough. You have that unpredictability, I suppose."

Ellis: "Right. Or consider Einstein’s theory of relativity, for example. This was pure knowledge. But now, GPS systems that everybody has in their SUV, these have to incorporate Einstein’s theory of relativity in order to figure out where they are. Well, an SUV you don’t need to know so accurately. But airplanes, if they’re going to land without making a bump, OK, they have to incorporate both special and general relativity into their calculations of the signals from GPS satellites. So, even apparently abstruse things like general relativity turn out to be relevant to the human race. Not back in 1915, when Einstein thought of it, but in 2007, yeah."

Now here's what another theoretical physicist, Michio Kaku from CCNY, had to say about potential applications of discoveries made at the LHC:

Kaku: "When we look at the spinoffs of the Large Hadron Collider, we realize that the immediate benefits are at least in three areas: one is telecommunications, the second is medical technology, and third is energy. ... In telecommunications, realize that the World Wide Web comes out of CERN. The World Wide Web was created by a physicist to keep track of subatomic particles, and now it’s adopted pretty much everywhere in the world. We physicists are at the cutting edge of all technologies: laser technology, transistor technology, telecommunications. The iPods, and the space satellites, and all this information that we get around us are byproducts of atomic physics. And we know so much about atomic physics because of our work with atom smashers. And in the medical field, if you have problems with your brain, PET scans allow us to see the living brain, second by second, actually thinking. We do this with positrons, antielectrons, antimatter. And antimatter was pioneered by atom smashers. In fact, we can create beams of antimatter now with our atom smashers. So when you look at MRI scans, PET scans, when you look at all the medical tracers, radioactive tracers that we use to scan the body, all of them are spinoffs of atomic physics, and atomic physics in turn is driven by atom smashers. That’s how we know so much about them."

We discussed energy earlier in the interview, and you'll just have to wait for the complete story to find out more about that angle. ;-)

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Jeff — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 02:28:37 GMT

I think all these lawsuits are just nut-cases. However, I think there is an even larger issue that concerns leadership in this country and the world.

Suppose an asteroid or other event has our number? If our species were very lucky, perhaps the folks on the ISS would still be safe. But, that is not very reassuring.

At a minimum, we should have all our collective knowledge and accomplishments documented and stored on Mars and Pluto - that is unless what we humans have done does not matter. Is that what our politicians think?

My preference would be to have established humanity on other worlds, first in this solar system and then elsewhere.

I just wonder why the media does not consider this sufficiently important to hound the politicians into answering. I think it is far more important than covering the latest insanity of a celebrity.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Freegan, UK — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 02:48:34 GMT

The main instigator is described as 'a former nuclear safety inspector' with a record of previous such opposition to 'Big Science'.

It might be pertinent to know whether he resigned or was fired from his nuclear safety job.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Peggy, Springfield,MO — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 03:26:55 GMT

I don't know if this thing will work or not,but what I have to ask is, what did it cost? Do we really need it & who's paying for it? If its the American Government funding it,then I have to say,don't you think that the money would of been better spent helping people who are going hungry in this country. Don't you think when the budget is in the huge dark hole its in,that money could of been better spent? What about people who are loosing their homes,people with illness that could be cured with medical care,children who need dental care & three meals a day? What about the people in New Orleans who have lost every thing & still have no home,they are living in travel trailors that are posing health issues for those people.What if it doesn't work? Then all of that money that was spent on a pile of scrap.No matter who paid for it!

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Pavel, Washington, DC — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 03:27:18 GMT

There are probably some mini-black holes floating around our solar system already, noticeable relativistic effects - e.g. changes in planetary rotational rates, slight deceleration of planetary probes, etc. Who knows where they might have come from?

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Miahh — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 03:30:54 GMT

Have these people not seen The Mist yet?

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Adam, Brisbane, Australia — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 04:04:20 GMT

To the person carrying on about cosmic rays "dissipating harmlessly" in the high atmosphere - no, wrong. They COLLIDE with nitrogen or oxygen atoms and explode into particles, mostly muons, bathing the Earth below in about half our normal dose of radiation. Our atmosphere is one big LHC collision target, being hit by particles many, many times more powerful than 14 TeV. To say the LHC was going to make ANY Doomsday particles, when the last 4.5 billion years of cosmic ray bombardment hasn't, well it's just kind of ridiculously silly.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Praying that people will stop being stupid and ignorant. — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 04:08:08 GMT

I say let them test it out. If it destroys this earth, then so be it. Humans (including myself) are nothing but a cancer on this planet and in this universe. Bring it on, I could only pray for doomsday. Why fear death, or cherish life the way we do if it only prevents us from learning more about ourselves and this universe?

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Rich Kobel — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 04:08:38 GMT

Every time non-science types, with eighth-grade reading skills, and the reasoning skills of a third-grader get a hold of something like this they go bananas and start wailing out to God...and their equally non-hacking lawyers...to stop this or stop that. It's a good thing this is happening in Switzerland instead of here because regardless of what OUR courts decide, OUR courts don't have any jurisdiction in Switzerland. Thank God for that!

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Neil, Limbo, Ca — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 04:19:33 GMT

The May date is a lie!!! I have been studying CERN and their agenda for about 7 years now.

This is the count down from the CERN website.

http://aliceinfo.cern.ch//opencms/system/galleries/pics/AlicePublic/countdown.swf

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

The GPI, Grass Valley, California — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 04:50:07 GMT

Well known practical uses of a previously invented accelerator:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclotron
invented 1929
various medical uses today, for example.

As usual, the suit brought has merit to the extent of its validity by law, jurisdiction, and reasonableness, all to be determined.

If there is valid jurisdiction, it might delay throwing the "on" switch.

If the matter went forward, the defense would have to show that they have taken precautions and have reasonable safety measures in place to recognize the specific dangers and attenuate them early.

It will be a matter of risk versus benefit.

Remember there are actual benefits for reactors once we learn how to us them. It's not all physics theories.

Various other colliders give new information valuable for many industries. They provide methods to scale back into smaller devices and more specific experiments, industrial applications, and education.

Okay, I also got a big LOL by the spread of the particles that are spelled similar to mesons.

In weighing the arguments, the best drama would be the lack of humanity's ability to achieve even the smallest smidgeon of something like doomsday in the past, in spite of all of predictions. That coupled with the substantial ongoing benefit of prior collider experiments.

Humanity is represented by both sides of the case, and we will all ultimately be victorious.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Brother B, Planet Earth — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 05:31:17 GMT

I hope they turn it on and it opens up a wormhole to hell, demons come out, the dead rise, and the moon turns to blood while boiling. Anything to find out if we can build a warp drive is worth it, humanity. We'll find other planets to live on and leave a trail of demon spewing wormholes in our wake as a gift to the Universe.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

G.I. Rahul, Seattle, WA — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 05:33:41 GMT

"If I am going to die I would like to do so by being swallowed up by a black hole. Let the scientists have their experiment."
LOL toooooo true.. even though these whiners seem to be complete BS - there'll always be somebody out there who feels the need to cry wolf - given that we probably eventually have to die, why not do it in a black hole or get turned into strangelets or someother completely new and messed up particle. Adds just a bit more interest to life doesn't it XD

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Nik Green — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 05:40:48 GMT

Of course, that fact that 19 hard-liquor-drinking, cocaine-snorting, gambling-addicted flight-school-flunkout "radical Islamic fundamentalists" can defeat the laws of classical or Newtonian physics at will (namely the law of conservation of momentum and the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics amongst others), is rather more of a potential problem that the infinitesimally tiny chance that the LHR might create a rogue reaction in our neck of the universe....

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

G.I. Rahul, Seattle, WA — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 05:41:21 GMT

To me it seems like this is the kind of thing that makes the public doubt things that are completely accepted by the scientific community. The fact that global warming is happening is generally accepted among scientists, yet there is a much much larger proportion of the general public that doubts because the media makes a big deal out of the doubters. The same is happening in this case; the article states that the mainstream scientific community considers the chances of this causing an apocalypse to be next to nothing, yet this lawsuit is spawning doubt in the minds of the public. Freedom of expression all the way but.. sometimes it gets a little tiresome doesn't it =P

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Brent Gray — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 05:45:30 GMT

What a SHAME. Why didn't the phsudo-scientist take this to court years ago. I think they are such loosers that they relish stiffling their betters.
Publically MOCK THE JOKERS, business as uasual.
Spool up.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Vladimir — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 05:45:48 GMT

Alan:

Several comments about your comparison between Hawking's paper and Sancho's webpage.

Hawking's paper is clearly refereed by at least one other specialist in his field. Just because he uses complex vocabulary doesn't imply it is false. Sancho's site on the other hand is just on the internet - even I can post something completely false and people would believe it. Besides, Hawking's paper has a lot more math involved whereas Sancho's site seems to be just throwing around random concepts, and strangely enough Planck's constant. Seriously what does he mean by "Quantic space-time" or the "Generatrix Equuation". I can probably tell because I'm currently a physics/astrophysics student (at Berkeley). As far as I'm concerned he's like one of those quacks who actively refute relativity.

Seriously, I think Sancho is just having too much fun in his fantasy world...

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Kyle N — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 06:21:45 GMT

These haoles at the Univ of Hawaii have some serious island fever, probably exacerbated by the native "herbs" in the jungle. I look forward to the thorough humiliation of these "scientists".

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

jenner jones — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 06:48:17 GMT

Let's stop screwing around with the planet. Let's plant some food without pesticides and clean up our water system and get those cars that run on peanut oil on the road and and barter our true gifts with one another and save our wildlife and stop the jets from producing complete cloud cover in our skies. Let's stop screwing with the planet and enjoy what is left of it. Enough already.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Anonymouse, UK — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 07:22:53 GMT

Oh, please! They've watched the last season of Lexx a bit too often, I think. :)

Mind you, it isn't possible to watch too much of Xenia Seeberg or Louise Wischermann...rowf!

Seriously, though: what are these "new forms of matter" they're talking/rambling about? The laws of physics do have limits - the only forms of matter that appear to be possible are solid, liquid, gas and plasma. Finding monopoles - even if they exist - isn't going to change that.

"Ye canna change the laws of physics!"

- like many Star Trek fans, I love a good parody. Star Trekkin' was hilarious!

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

democrat go hillary hanford cali. — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 07:30:26 GMT

but what happens if 1 of them whatamacallits spins off or planen and hits the sun as it rotates around us could it stop all the stars too? that would suck

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Steines, Chester, Virginia — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 07:46:57 GMT

Okay let me see if I've got this straight. On one side you have extremely Intelligent and gifted scientists, that are seeking answers via discovery, which could better mankind, and on the opposing side you have, Pancho and Lefty, who believe doomsday is very likely, if this Large Hadron Collider is energized. I'm not a physicists, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night with Stephen Hawking, so where do ya' plug it in???

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Dan, Dunnellon, Florida — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 09:57:30 GMT

I'm all for killing off the entire planet and everything, but I just think, you know, it's been tried already, and it's just not that easy.

If it was as easy as *insert crackpot theory here* then some angry loser or emo kid would have already done it with a home project in their basement, and that's according to the same kind of logic proposed by those who believe in *previously mentioned crackpot theory*.

This has inspired me to write a cheesy story about Hitler's Doomsday Device now.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

John Middlemas — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 11:56:55 GMT

One day you could be having breakfast and "slurp" you and the house gets swallowed up. Curiosity killed the cat, comes to mind. Maybe that's why no other civilisations have been spotted on other planets, sooner or later any advanced race builds a similar collider and inadvertently destroys itself.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

John Doe, Seattle, Wash. — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 13:03:10 GMT

The LHC might indeed cause a doomsday. We have to consider that apparently not a single time traveler has visited the humankind until today despite of the fact that the laws of relativity and quantum physics as well allow time traveling. No time travelers from the future means... NO FUTURE.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Sam — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 13:19:09 GMT

Einstein wrote: "I, at any rate, am convinced that He [God] does not throw dice." (Einstein 1969).

.. please don't forget that scientists are not infallible.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

James Hawk III — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 13:33:00 GMT

Eh, for those that read the John Titor reference and didn't know about it--IT WAS A HOAX. This supposed "time traveler" predicted nothing that's happened, and following that line of "evidence" produces nothing useful.

In other news, Elvis is really, really, dead.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

DG, St. George, Utah — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 15:34:29 GMT

Use Occam's razor. How many previous doomsday scenarios have occurred? None, zero, zip. Even Jesus got it wrong and the religious-types have told me he was the "son of god". There will be no 2012 doomsday (it's a baktun-ending, nothing more), no runaway greenhouse (Earth is not close enough to Sun), no Planet X. Humans did not coexist with non-avian dinosaurs as some would suggest (and build a museum/theme park to promote the idea). The stupidity that is rampant within our society is distressing. Stupidity is not a virtue. However, the movie "Idiocracy" appears prophetic.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

ken c, Raleigh, NC — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 16:56:26 GMT

All colliders should be stopped.
Physicists go home.
Scientists are baised by their career passions and livelihood. They cannot objectively evaluate risks.
Physicists will extinct humanity and the planet before they are done.
Nobody has the right to expose all of humanity to an unmitigated risk.
Certainly not in the name of testing these experimental theories.
Obviously by the comments, some of you are human haters and some of you are God haters. Some of you are juvenile and enjoy the risk of trying to find out if you're right or wrong.
If you are that self-absorbed, then personalize it: Think of your kids.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 18:04:50 GMT

Read about the reality of mini-black holes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_black_hole

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Mario Ljubicic, Sibinj, Croatia — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 18:05:58 GMT

most people here who are complaining don't know s*** about physics and science, there's a bigger chance of you dying by the bullet than from these experiments

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

andy, hayling Island. — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 19:42:38 GMT

Why don't these Brainwashed Scientists, come clean and say they really have no idea the danger the LHC posses once in action.
Why don't they ask the top Mathmatician in the world [Marko Rodin] to model thier theory Mathmatically.

Then as in the Atom Bomb, when the Scientists gave they energy release figures, they can analise them first.
But as we see, na, we wanna build it and switch it on, is what the pre-pubesent scientists are doing.

Lest we forget the Law of thermodynamics [primary] is a scam anyway, we are already in a closed loop system, [they won't tell you that] so all these scientists have been brainwashed at Jesuit Vatican Universitys, thinking they know what they are talking about. But their beliefs are in question.

Scientists are even less trustworthy than politicians, they don't even have to pretend for the public.

Type in [Marko Rodin Google Video] to your search engine, and sit back for four hours of pure heaven,

Marko explains the Unviverse, free energy, the Spirit of Mankind, actually see 'Time' Make us Galactic Travellers, cure all desease period, feed the whole planet and some.

Trust this is one guy you need to see.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

auntiegrav — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 20:06:21 GMT

A lot of money to find out that we will need to build a bigger collider again.

Do you see a pattern emerging here, Scully?

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Matthew "Floyd" Clough, Stockbridge GA — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 20:41:59 GMT

Thanks Alan!

It's regrettable to see the years of progress CERN has worked so hard for finally come to fruition only to be locked and barred less than a month from initial testing. Even though some pretty bizarre consequences actually DO exist (both negative and positive), I still find the postponement very disappointing.

Any step mankind takes into the "unknown" is going to produce mass paranoia, fear and uncertainty along with those who WANT to witness the unknown out of anticipation or a sense of wonder - the same goes for CHANGE in general - it's unknown. So surely anything of THIS nature is going to emotionally charge people one way or another.

Resistance to change seems to be, unfortunately, human nature at this moment in our history. :(

Personally, I am one of those who want to see the LHC, and all the minds behind it, succeed and carry on with this. After all, anyone on this Earth who can say "I've succeeded in [insert event or situation here whether bad or good]" cannot honestly tell you that no risks were involved in that process of attainment and/or loss.

It makes me sad to think that if this were a WEAPON it would have been up and running years ago. :(

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

agent 1266 — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 21:48:01 GMT

Here are my Dept. of Homeland Security tracking numbers concerning my reports of Nasa and the National Science Foundations fraudulent criminal false claims as to LHC's super cooled magnets being colder than space when, in fact; they are not colder than space. DHS tracking number: 080125-21. These numbers were generated in January 2008 of this year.

Here are my Dept of Justice tracking numbers concerning my reports of Nasa and The National Science Foundations fraudulent criminal false claims as to LHC's super cooled magnets being colder than space when, in fact; they are not colder than space. Dept. of Justice, special litigation section tracking numbers: 1242008-12 (nasa's false claims) 1252008-1 (nsf false claims) These numbers were also generated in January 2008 of this year.

I personally do not care for walter wagners 're-assessment' till deemed safe argument...LHC can never be allowed to go online (period) as there are too many missing/hidden variables in the standard model to allow...it is a good thing walter wagner is doing but we cant affodr to get complacent with this at all...when and if they ever do fill in all the missing blanks in the standard model; they will find that LHC indeed would detroy the world...

The Standard Model of particle physics is a theory that describes three of the four known fundamental interactions between the elementary particles that make up all matter. It unifies the electroweak theory and quantum chromodynamics into a structure denoted by the gauge groups SU(3)×SU(2)×U(1). It is a quantum field theory developed between 1970 and 1973 which is consistent with both quantum mechanics and special relativity. To date, almost all experimental tests of the three forces described by the Standard Model have agreed with its predictions. However, the Standard Model falls short of being a complete theory of fundamental interactions, primarily because of its lack of inclusion of gravity, the fourth known fundamental interaction, but also because of the eighteen numerical parameters (such as masses and coupling constants) that must be put "by hand" into the theory (rather than being derived from first principles). people who support LHC are obviously un-educated as are the con-artists involved with LHC, fermilab and RHIC's conception...I will not expound on my credentials but I do possess a 4.0 GPA in my collge field(s)...soft fascist censorship has led to prejects like LHC and RHIC as I suspect this post will not be posted and I will have wasted my time in posting it while the person who withholds this data from users in this tread is endangering my planet via censorship...
"what if nothing bad happens when LHC goes online?" -sirrah

[EDIT] something bad has already happened...the 2005 RHIC fireball/explosion and the 10,000 un-explained, disappearing atoms?...the by-product (black hole) may not avail itself and destroy the world for months/years/decades/centuries or even eons...what is known for sure is, that; 10,000 atoms inexplicably disappeared...more evidence substantiating the 'fact' that there are far too many missing/hidden variables to allow LHC to go online or to allow RHIC, Fermilab or the dept. of energy to continue on thier current trajectory...

-agent 1266

my current UN, norad, dhs and gao.gov case(s)...

http://shrapnelbomb.googlepages.com/

http://explosivedevice.googlepages.com/updates

http://explosivedevice.googlepages.com/ ... nyourhouse

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Dan, Chicago IL — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 21:57:42 GMT

Beyond the physics "issues" which I could go into at length since I'm a high-energy physicist with (gasp!) a Ph. D., can I just point out that it's the SCIENTISTS who will be standing right next to the thing when it turns on?!

It's clear that these people have no real safety concerns. Otherwise they'd be suing NASA to stop space launches, since a wayward piece of space junk has a MUCH higher chance of killing them then any of these outlandish scenarios. Instead, [...] they've decided to manufacture even the most tenuous connection to real science so they can feel like they haven't wasted their life.

STOP WASTING EVERYBODY'S TIME!

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Paul Anon (secular european) — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 00:15:40 GMT

Afraid of discoveries around creation (Higgsboson) I suppose! Again religion versus science! Afraid to know that god doesn't exist.

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johndoe, charlotte, nc — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 00:16:12 GMT

From an airline pilot I have learned one lesson,
"never assume anything". The scientists are so engulfed in their minute knowledge,that they dismiss this. For THEY think they know. That might be a deadly mistake.

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agent 1266 — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 00:17:31 GMT

[quote] "The Dominium model outlines cosmological events from Big Bang to Big Bang. This model is not plagued by anomaly as other theories are. It is coherent. It is seamless. Yet this model presents the awful implication: mini black-holes will not disappear as simply as predicted. They will persist, and they will begin compacting, which in scientific terms means they will be “stable” and 'uncontrollable'."

[quote] "The Dominium model asserts that the mathematical modelers who originally employed reverse-gravity are the ones who were correct, not the subsequent ones who ignored its importance in their models. The Dominium model asserts: reverse-gravity would be the opposites-repel interaction between matter and antimatter." The Dominium Model: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=The+Dominium+model&btnG=Google+Search

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Jeremy, Cleveland, OH — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 00:39:18 GMT

At least they don't test nuclear theories by dropping them on Japanese cities anymore.

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small-smaller-mini-quantum-smallest — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 00:52:43 GMT

I hope they answer the question how small is smallest.

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Courtney, KY — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 02:13:42 GMT

Some of the smartest people in the world, are forgetting one small detail...... this wonderfully elaborate "test" to see how the universe was created still leaves the blank void of an answer to HOW the matter that caused the so-called "big-bang THEORY" came to be. However interesting as it may seem that somehow scientists involved in this study will know as fact that whatever occurs during this project is the instant re-play of creation, is nothing more than overactive imaginations and childhood wonders. The TRUTH of the matter is that NO ONE knows, nor will ever know, how the universe was created. Why are we stretching our minds for billion dollar tests based on theories, which will "do" nothing for the crisis our earth and the people who are living in it today? Instead of focusing our funds, intelligence, and lives toward a cause to prove to someone (?) that we have no meaning, why should we not be putting out efforts toward obvious attentions? Just accept God for who HE is and thank him that he is allowing you to be here this moment.

1 Corinthians 3:18-23

18 Don't fool yourselves! If any of you think you are wise in the things of this world, you will have to become foolish before you can be truly wise. 19 This is because God considers the wisdom of this world to be foolish. It is just as the Scriptures say, "God catches the wise when they try to outsmart him." 20 The Scriptures also say, "The Lord knows that the plans made by wise people are useless." 21-22 So stop bragging about what anyone has done. Paul and Apollos and Peter [a] all belong to you. In fact, everything is yours, including the world, life, death, the present, and the future. Everything belongs to you, 23 and you belong to Christ, and Christ belongs to God.

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JW Owego, NY — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 02:47:02 GMT

I believe that if something were invented that could possibly cause great harm to all of mankind or yield great scientific knowledge, government grants and profits, the experts would assure us right up until the thing exploded that everything was just fine.

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J. Quinlan — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 03:48:29 GMT

We could potentially stop the LHC with a law suit but we couldn't stop Wall Street from practically sending our economy back into the 1930's!
There were those who thought we'd ignite the atmosphere with the atomic tests. And please look out for that big "DROP" at the end of the Earth.
I agree with "Quit Whining", "Fire it up."

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Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 06:59:49 GMT

Courtney, KY...big words with little meaning. The collider experiment isn't about outsmarting a God..if in your mentality you want to attach the LHC to anything religious (and I can assure you like all science before it isn't) then get cool and understand that God likes this.

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B.Reeves — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 08:59:02 GMT

That is where you are wrong not everyone from Texas is against this you are no better then those preaching against it about being closed minded I for one would like to see the conclusions it brings forth.. I do not have a degree in this type of stuff I am a Lay-man after all my degree is in Computer forensics so to say all those in red states are closed minded is as absurd as these doomsayers theories caused my the LHC

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mideastbob, Kuwait, Kuwait — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 10:00:56 GMT

Not many comments from Europe, I wonder why?

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Damon, Boca Raton Fl — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 11:11:46 GMT

Jesus is ultimately in control. Let them do it, it won't change how the story unfolds. Perfect love has no fear.

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Nick. — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 11:58:01 GMT

I love science, and I think that this is an amazing piece of technology. I am impressed by the amount of cooperation there was between nations. Its large projects like this, and the ISS that can really unite humanity.

Seems to me though, the time to do an investigation would have been a long time ago. Its almost done being built, I doubt after spending millions they are going to let it just sit there and gather dust. Lol. But i guess its good that people are concerned with the safety of our planet. Just because they are scientists doesn't mean they know everything. Seriously, if they knew 100% what was going to happen, why are they even doing the experiments?

Think about history, and all of the inventions and discoveries that we later learned were dangerous. Maybe if we had done more investigating we could have avoided some of those mistakes. Kudos to whoever is keeping the watchful eye on science, and for having the balls to speak out.

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Lumpkin — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 12:09:07 GMT

i second the motion for Dr. Morgan Freeman to spearhead the campaign. Although i hear it's hard to tie him down to any one task.

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sarcy, Portmouth, UK. — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 15:00:03 GMT

History clearly shows that scientists have never made mistakes and are always right and never ever get carried away with the investment they make in their "babies" and are motivated purely by what is best for everyone, of course there is no reason at all for con cern.

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HLC — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 17:15:38 GMT

Ops there goes another HLC...I mean another GRB...are they really whole galaxy's being destroyed as they are sucked in by the first HLC that was built a long, long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away..or is it a sign that the universe is heading for the Big Crunch...but don't worry because we will never know it...one secound here the next secound gone.

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Marvin Lipford, Port Charlotte, FL — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 17:51:22 GMT

OK, one last time to try to explain the "problem".

Two protons colliding head-on with the same energy of 7 Tev ( 14 Tev total ) IS ABOUT THE SAME as one proton with 40,000 Tev ( 4e^16 ev ) colliding with another proton at rest. ( That's why LHC had to be a collider. )

( see http://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/classes/252/particle_creation.html for an expanation. )

Once fully oprationalal the LHC will create about 1e^9 such collisions per second.

( see http://www.interactions.org/LHC/what/index.html )

The MEASURED number air bursts of particle showers caused by high energy cosmic rays protons striking protons "at rest" the Earth's atmosphere with enegeries greater than 1e10^18 ev is about 1 per week per km^2

(see http://www.auger.org/cosmic_rays/detector.html )

So Nature creates about 1 such event per second somewhere on the Earth that intersects a sphere half the size of the Earth. ( more on this later )

This means that one second of LHC collisions is equal to about a billion seconds ( 30 years ) of natural collisions with the Earth. So if the LHC operates for 100 years ( unlikely ) then that is equivalent to all the natural collisions with the Earth for about 3000 years.

Since the Earth is still here after at least 3 billion years, the LHC risk of destroying the Earth is at least as small as 1 / 1e10^6 of the NATURAL risk! And since the sun is still here, you can argue that the real number closer to 1 / 1e10^16.

This is about the same odds as tossing 53 coins in the air and having them all land heads.

To conclude: The likelyhood of LHC creating ANYTHING that destroys the Earth is AT LEAST 10,000,000,000,000,000 times smaller than NATURE destroying the Earth in the same time period.

Is this a reasonable "risk"? The answer for people who think in black and white ( yes / no ) will say NO! The rest of us will realize the all heads 53 coin toss wager is a "safe" bet.

Note: I chose 1/2 the Earth's radius to calculate the natural exposure to allow for the resulting particles to penetrate at least 3000 km into the Earth before coming to "rest". If any particle gets that far into the Earth without stopping it's not very likely to stop at all.

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V, new york, new york — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 20:10:53 GMT

scientist are already playing with acceleration smashers and have been making micro black holes left and right,
this is simply a more powerful one. The only difference is that this one might make cool exotic matter,
and if the pico-possibility of doom is real then Samantha Carter will come and save us all out of the alternate reality in which the sgc really exists.
The need to know is what makes us Human.

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joe, seattle waschington — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 20:34:50 GMT

I'm speechless. This is a ridiculous lawsuit. Wagner should be stripped of his pHd for doing such a stupid thing. He needs to read up on Einsteins theories and go back to high school physics. (He should also check up the definition of a black hole which requires a huge amount of MASS to create a gravitational field. MASS cannot be generated out of thin air) [...]

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Mike, Dallas, Texas — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 22:32:01 GMT

Maybe suing in court isn't the right way to address these concerns, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be discussed openly, or that we should brand someone who raises these issues as a crackpot. It's not just crackpots that have raised these issues - eminent scientists such as Sir Martin Rees have written about these possibilities, even if they consider them to be extremely remote. And what about the unintended irony of the scientist quoted in the article as laughing off the concerns as "science fiction", and then going on to say that any black holes created wouldn't live very long, so they are harmless. The fact is, black holes themselves were science fiction until fairly recently. I would think that a physicist wouldn't be so quick to cluck in disapproval at the seemingly outlandish.

And isn't the bigger issue how we as a civilization will address questions of the consequences of cutting-edge science? When the risk is infintesimal, but the possible result is not just bad, but end-of-the-universe bad, we as a civilization should be willing to do more than just shrug. What about the scientists of the Manhattan Project, who before their test detonations discussed the possibility that the explosions might ignite the atmosphere? Or the researchers in Australia who unwittingly created a strain of mousepox that was resistant to immunization? These issues of cutting-edge research and its possible consequences are going to keep coming in the future, and we as a civilization need to have a serious discussion about how to both serve knowledge and the safety of the human race.

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William Borgstrom — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 23:13:59 GMT

I am sick of science and their BS. Can't cure cancer or the common cold because big Pharma says NO. Oceans full of plastic debris, air full of smog and depleted uranium. Ask a Boeing pilot why he wears a radiation monitor above 36,000 feet. Electronic smog so thick if it were visable you couldn't see your hand in front of your face. With luck, the whole system will implode into a black hole and we can start over with the nice folks who demonstrate against WAR and love flowers and little puppies.
Fire the son of a bitch up,Mr.Jack Scientist Hope you're the first one to get it.

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Bennie Beaver - Salt Lake City, Utah — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 00:56:06 GMT

As long as man remains who he is there will be those who see a different reality. Too often individuals see the future of research and progress as based on absolutes, when in reality, there based on the preponderance of evidence. There is no absolute certainty that nothing can go wrong, so individuals like this jump in believing that things will go wrong.

One thing is pretty certain, and that is, that if man doesn't continue his research and development of science, then something else will likely destroy us: over population; shortage of food; disease; war; asteroid or other object from outer space, etc. Pick your cataclysmic event!

As I've heard before, that something could go wrong in the research project at LHC, is as likely as my getting out of bed tomorrow and finding that my car has somehow managed to ooze through the wall of my garage and out on the street. It's possible from the stand point of science but extremely unlikely.

(Twelfth grader truck driver's Web Site at GOOGLE Keyword "Dr. Warpenstein")

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JTankers, Middleton WI — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 03:57:39 GMT

CERN’s web site states that we have not been destroyed by effects of cosmic rays and micro black holes will evaporate.

However, cosmic rays travel too fast to be captured by Earths gravity, and Hawking Radiation is disputed (http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0304042) and contradicts Einstein’s highly successful relativity theory.
Collider particles smash head on like a car collision and can be captured by Earth’s gravity, and relativity predicts micro black holes will not decay (Hawking called Einstein doubly wrong, yet it is Einstein who is repeatedly found to have been correct in his theories). There is currently no reasonable proof of LHC safety, LSAG (LHC Safety Assessment Group) has been trying for months to prove safety without success. I hold the minority opinion that it may not be possible because it may in fact not be safe.

If micro black holes are created, we may soon be trying to calculate the growth rate, and in my personal speculation, it might not be too implausible to believe that calculation might need to account for similar quantum effects that Hawking predicts but as an accelerator not as a decay factor.

NewScientist March 22-28 “Stakes get higher in antimatter puzzle”: “We can say with greater than 99.7 per cent probability that CP violation is there” says Sivestrini [of Italy’s National Institute of Nuclear Physics INFN] (link corrected from article: http://arxiv.org/abs/0803.0659)

Cosmic Rays from the legal complaint.

…any such novel particle created in nature by cosmic ray impacts would be left with a velocity at nearly the speed of light, relative to earth. At such speeds, …, is believed by most theorists to simply pass harmlessly through our planet with nary an impact, safely exiting on the other side. … Conversely, any such novel particle that might be created at the LHC would be at slow speed relative to earth, a goodly percentage would then be captured by earth’s gravity, and could possibly grow larger [accrete matter] with disastrous consequences of the earth turning into a large black hole.

Sincerely, JTankers LHCConcerns.com

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Mathew, Hyderabad, India — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 04:36:01 GMT

Sounds like a good idea. Go for it. Maybe Prof. Langdon was right after all.

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homo at risk — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 06:56:31 GMT

Hawking radiation implies travel to the past as he interprets the negative sign of antiparticles not as standard physics does, a movement left or right, but a movement to the past, as a result it denies the 1st law of thremodynamics (information disappears to the past) and the 2nd law (the hottest source the black hole keeps getting hotter) obviously it has never been proved. It is a fancy mathematical hoax and mankind cannot depend on a hoax to survive. strangelets will be stable under the ordinary constant bag or MIT bag used by specialists. CERN is lying to keep the machine going.
it is fascinating how people who would be hysterical if someone puts a gun on his head, let physicists to do it just because they dont understand physics. It is silly to risk life for not wanting to look silly. What physicists should do is not to play authority but say the truth and let the people who pay them and are at risk decide by themselves.

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Jem, London UK — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 08:36:40 GMT

Hummm... you need to ask what really is the big picture here?

I offer the suggestion that the USA are attempting to suppress/delay key research from a region that is not under its direct control from obtaining such knowledge & power that it could otherwise use for its own ends. It is clear that such research has both huge commercial & military potential and could further weaken the USA’s global influence.

Remember, the USA has its own program undertaking exactly the same research, but it is neither as advanced nor on the same scale.

I will let you decide as free individuals, to assess the merits off all valid arguments rather than be frightened & misled by scaremongers.

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A.E. Jabbour, Grosse Pointe, MI — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 15:04:07 GMT

This is SO important for all of us. This is the kind of thing that could change our understanding of science, of reality, of the universe altogether.

These people are just screaming "Wolf!" because they, apparently, have nothing better to do.

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Peter R, Toronto, ON, Canada — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 16:08:52 GMT

I've finally gotten tired of reading the comments above. Not because they lack interesting content, but rather the same points seem to be bantered back and forth repeatedly. Let's look at them:

1. Cosmic ray events
Thus far have not caused our extinction, keeping in mind the age of our solar system and the universe itself, to think that the LHC could somehow produce that which the observable universe has not seems a trifle paranoid

2. More investigation needed to evaluate the safe execution of the experiment.
Science has taught us well. Head the warnings of past failure. Indeed we have, and science has excelled tenfold in the last century largely based on this lesson. At some point you reach the end of foreseeable outcomes and must start hypothesizing about alternate outcomes and weigh risk and probability. Once you exhaust those you are left with fact, projections, and logic. In order to expand knowledge one must explore further and proceed with experimentation so long as risk and probability say it's safe to do so.

The last separation seems to be that of creation and science, which is still the largest divide yet to cross. I have no more an answer for this than anyone else has. Science has proved itself time and again, but we still can only go back so far from a scientific perspective, yet this experiment could be the key to that barrier.

One last point to consider, if scientist have all indications that this could be safely executed and turn out to be wrong, who would you sue? From my perspective, if we learn we excel, if we fail, we parish, but who would know?

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John Doe, Seattle, Wash — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 16:49:43 GMT

This is the real reason the Drake Equation is irrelevant. Minds intelligent and curious enough to escape their gravity well are inevitably intelligent and curious enough to destroy their planet accidentally.

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Unknown — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 18:12:14 GMT

It is possible that this HLC could cause a rift in our spacetime that could result in a paradox effect of unknown consequences for us and whatever lies beyond...It is worth the risk.

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Axanka — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 18:48:40 GMT

I'm very happy that this happens in my lifetime.

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Wayne, Alamogordo, NM — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 19:08:03 GMT

Sometimes Thomas Ashby and I don't see eye to eye, but I'm with you on this one Thomas. If we are created beings, then our creator is a scientist who likes to create things. We are created within certain confines and restrictions, but the ability to seek the truth and learn new things was obviously a key part of our makeup. If you read your old testament, you'll find that man was not restricted from eating of the tree of knowledge, just the tree of discernment of good and evil. If there are new particles discovered using the LHC, then we were meant to find them.

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One — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 19:24:37 GMT

Let us not leap before we look... or take the leap of faith..for science is unforgiving.

Let logic be the step that guides us

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Eric, San Diego, CA — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 19:38:51 GMT

These idiots filing the lawsuit have absolutely no standing to prevent this good science from going forward, not only because the lab is not in the United States, but also because they have absolutely no legal authority to stop this independent scientific study. I cannot believe the courts are even allowing these two conspiracy nut jobs to file their claim in the first place. Hopefully the judge in the matter will end this charade immediately.

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Sean Patterson, Buffalo, NY — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 20:22:34 GMT

"Perhaps the Big bang was caused by a civilization earily similar to ours, in the area of 13 billion years ago that built it's own LHC. And the big bang that created their universe was made by a civilization in a nother universe 13 some odd billion years prior to that, who also built an LHC, and their big bang..."

similar to this http://pbfcomics.com/?cid=PBF111-Reset.jpg

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Fred,MI — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 20:24:16 GMT

to the moon, ALICE - Through the looking glass.

http://aliceinfo.cern.ch/index.html

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Wake up — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 20:28:43 GMT

Every one of you needs to get real familiar with Nassim Haramein's work.

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Digital — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 22:09:58 GMT

"It could happen" is ------NOT------ an argument. You COULD get a 10,000 volt shock from your keyboard. Stop using it.

If you want to come back with facts to contribute, lets go. I want numbers, testable data.

Or: If you can't do that.

Sign everything you own over to me, effective the day after testing. If you're sure, put your money where your mouth on.

Or: If you won't do that.

Read about the topic. Not just the 'fox news' version, read and think about it. A 'black hole' isn't a eater of worlds, it's a super dense peice of mass with interesting propertys. the ones you see in movies that you're basing your science off of... those are massive blackholes, and have different propertys because they are 'stable' under their own gravity... (yes, yes, it's not exactly accurate, but I'm not getting into hawking radiation discussions in a quick post)

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Frank, Charleston, SC — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 22:12:50 GMT

So let me get this straight? We do these experiments and figure out stuff about the universe that would help out the human race OR we destroy the entire planet... hrmmm...... you guys who love science too much are fools. That's what it all boils down to. And there's not a single judge on the planet that is smart enough to absorb all the data from all the scientists and say "it's ok to go through with this!". It's too bad I won't be able to sue all of you fools when Earth is destroyed!

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michael webb Panama, Republic of Panama — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 22:17:36 GMT

I read this story: http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/03/27/823924.aspx

my answer to that is: This is why we need a planet like Mars to do these experiments...I read similar stories before...Sorry, but Earth is the most precious planet AND THE ONLY PLANET in the universe, we can’t afford to destroy it....The only moment if it was me, that i will use such a collider is if i was 1,000 years away from Earth destruction or from Earth getting gobbled by the Sun...That’s the only time i will use such a collider, after all what scientist don’t see is that physics have done incredible advancement in the last 300 years, i mean accelerated growth, come on we have at least 1 million years to start running again, so i don’t know what’s the hurry...Such experiments should cease....And if funny because i like particles accelarators and i am in favor of them....But you know everytime i see the picture of a huge particle accelarator i think of a gigantic stock market or lottery stock market system...But again if this people say they are smarts as they say they are, they will know this things....

A black hole is nothing to be playing with...Remember black holes only get BIGGER...I don’t care if is harmless...what they need to do is find ways to terraform Mars...What am i saying? I am saying Physics has plenty of time, they are way too ahead of their time...What they need to do is create more "Space/Cosmos/Universe" movies, because space movies are unheard of....

i think people should be more afraid of a black hole than they should be afraid of a loose lion, getting shot, an atomic bomb...A black hole destroys MASSES of planets, i’ll like to know what bullet or misile can do that....Is for their own good..one thing is wanting to find the fountain of Youth, another is wanting to create a black hole in your backyard...I’ll like to know where is green PEACE when you need them...Again stuff they should really be paying attention, they don’t....

I’ll like to know where are the Nazis...

What they should be doing is instead of sponsoring such research they should take the money and sponsor research into artificial intelligence and computers and supercomputers and ways they can make them smarter and android research and unmanned spacecraft this way androids will be able to go to mars or through a worm hole and gather intelligence (by the way if you didn’t know a worm hole is different from a black hole), or transport our DNA or i don’t know how...That’s where they should be pouring their money, for acelarators have plenty of time, PLENTY OF TIME, they almost have an enternity....And instead of spending BILLION on an accelarator, they should create a GLOBAL STOCK EXCHANGE OR GLOBAL LOTTERY STOCK EXCHANGE OR A SYSTEM THAT WILL HAVE WINNERS AND LOSERS, and they should buy themselves plenty of supercomputers and test hypothesis and think crap up...For those smart scientists...A thought/mind is a terrible thing to waste...They should be thinking hypotheses up more and more and sort of play with the supercomputer, i mean if they REALLY are SCIENCE NERDS/SCIENTIST.......You see anyone can do an experiment to confirm a hypothesis, but now many can think hypothesis/theories up? That’s why they should focus more on inventing and thinking [things] up and experimenting with them on the supercomputer, and letting the experimentation for future generations/descendants that are less smart...The main point is thinking hypotheses up, because how many supersmart individuals are there? Not many, that’s why whenever they discover a genius they put him to work mentally, not just on 1 theory, but to think and think and think....you necesarily don’t have to rush to prove hypothesis theories, you got all the time in the world....After you accumulated 200 or 1,000 theories/hypotheses you then can beging to experiment with them, and you can always toy with them on the supercomputer....That’s my thought on that....You should have a SUPERFUND, i am talking of billions of dollars, placed in the bank and the earned interest go to pay for an Assembly that will take the calls from around the world and will offer cash rewards for anyone who can come up with ideas or ways to back a theory up or to come up himself/herself with theories/hypotheses, and this way you have people around the world thinking stuff up, the main idea is thinking stuff up....And you should never discard the theories that are wrong, you should keep them in a safe for future generations for anyone who wants to go to that library and get ideas or as a collection...And you know something? this is more important than a museum....Is there something like that currently in the world? And we are only talking Physics and theoretical physics, this is not talking other areas...

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Robert Marsh II , Butler, Georgia — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 22:46:58 GMT

BASED UPON ALL AVAILABLE INFORMATION UPTO THIS MOMENT, THE HIGHEST PROBABILITY FOR DISASTER, POINTS TO A TIME-DILATION/TEMPORAL DISTORTION FIELD (TIME RIP)! LOCALIZED OR GROWING, STATIC OR MOVING, AND POSSIBLY A MOBIUS ENDLESS CAUSALITY LOOP! THEORETICALLY: LOCALIZED, STATIC (NON-MOVING), AND TEMPORARY, WITH 10-12 HOURS DISSIPATION AFTER (LHC) HADRON EMERGENCY SHUT-DOWN. IF THIS WERE TO BEGIN, THEN TIME WOULD START CHANGING ON SURROUNDING CLOCKS IN AND OUT OF A 30-60 MILE PERIMETER.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Paige Thulin, Commerce, MI — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 22:59:40 GMT

I think I just found a topic for my latest Sci/Fi novel.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Frank Glover Rochester, NY — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 23:50:33 GMT

"Let's bear in mind that even Albert Einstein insisted in a letter to President Eisenhower that testing of a fusion device had the potential to cause a flash-fire in the Earth's atmosphere and trigger a nuclear chain reaction in the world's oceans."

I'm not sure it was Einstein, but that was indeed a concern for some, prior to the first test of a thermonuclear bomb. However, as I learned in high school chemestry, decades after Bikini Atoll, that the combining of oxygen and nitrogen was an endothermic (as opposed to exothermic) reaction that required an input of energy to bring about. Oxides of nitrogen are produced all the time in internal combustion and other engines and is considered a pollutant. and are also formed in the close vicinity of a nuclear detonation (the so-called 'fireball')...and they cease to be formed, once the nuclear reactions that provide the heat have played out (though they can make the fireball oddly colored at the end). So I was never clear as to just what it was in the atmosphere that was subbosed to 'ignite' that a good lightning stroke wouldn't also cause...

Also, there are some who already believe that extremely low mass (and thus nuclear particle size) black holes NATURALLY exist at the centers of most objects of signifigant mass (stars and planets), radiating energy (and thus losing mass) in a process theorized some time ago by Stephen Hawking. (quantum pair formation occuring right at a black hole's event horizon can cause it to appear to radiate energy in a manner inversely related to the area of the event horizon. A stellar black hole would radiate with almost undetectable feebleness, but the process picks up as the mass and event horizon gets smaller. A BH of, say, asteroidal mass would be smaller than an atom, radiating intensely, tending to vaporize and push away any matter near it, and having a low probability of absorbing any particles that still managed to come close, because of its small size. Those that the LHC might create would be of even lower mass, and evaporate away in very short order):

http://riofriospacetime.blogspot.com

I'm not sure I agree with Louise on how common these quantum black holes in planetary cores might be (or the variance of the sppeed of light), but she still makes for very interesting reading...

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

mika, outhere — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 23:59:17 GMT

"...captured by earth’s gravity, and could possibly grow larger [accrete matter] with disastrous consequences of the earth turning into a large black hole."

I didn't realize the earth had enough mass to make a large black hole. Isn't it a fact that an earth mass black hole would in fact be the size of a pea?

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Zone — Tue, 01 Apr 2008 00:15:36 GMT

Its also possible that everything within 30 miles of this thing will cease to exist when HLC reaches critical mass and creates a dead zone...no one will be able to shut it off...and it continues...next stop the twilight zone..stay tuned.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

OK — Tue, 01 Apr 2008 00:34:19 GMT

OK folks, we had enough fun with alan and his cosmic log...its time to say goodnite.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Earth — Tue, 01 Apr 2008 00:38:11 GMT

One last thing.....pleaseeeeeee don't flip that switch......
Thank You
Terra

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Jeremy Arvada, CO — Tue, 01 Apr 2008 01:48:27 GMT

I love people who live in the modern world, a world in which everything you do is founded on science that was at one point or another considered dangerous by somebody as analogously ignorant as a judge, yet you question science as if it's your place. Not that I wish to imply that double standards don't exist absolutely everywhere, but at what point do you draw the line saying that science has done ENOUGH to improve your lives? You can either move out to Walden Pond or you can live in a house with wireless internet, a security system, running water and lights, you can't have it both ways.

Every scientific inquiry of reasonable fame has had a considerable possible risk attached to it, what makes this one any different? To the average layman, the science involved here is no more above and beyond the scope of the science involved in a lightbulb, a refrigerator, a computer, an atomic weapon or the sun. It is your prerogative to mistrust something that wasn't developed, finalized and proven before you were even born, but it is not your right or purpose to stop it from ever coming to fruition.

These scientists don't tell you how to do your job, you don't tell them how to do theirs. Oh yeah, and comparing it to the Manhattan Project and the consequences is like comparing astronomy with rocketry. Sure, they both involve scientific inquiry, but one is designed for the explicit intent of destruction, while the other has a track record of doing much more good than harm.

The more interesting concern on the subject is the consequences of the knowledge that we will gain from it. Of course, speculating about that is akin to penguins speculating about superconducting magnetism.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Jim, Los Angeles — Tue, 01 Apr 2008 03:11:12 GMT

It's theoretically possible that there is a microscopic antimatter black hole that is about to destroy the earth, and the only way to stop it is to fire up the LHC. Someone needs to stop those obstructionists before we all get killed.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Fendy, Indonesia — Tue, 01 Apr 2008 05:20:38 GMT

Strange morons and charmed quakons, bringing the issue up and down seems to be a top source of pain in the bottom for physicists.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Owen G, Ireland — Tue, 01 Apr 2008 18:34:03 GMT

Look at problems at Heathrow last week caused by "unforeseen events". The more hi-tech a project the less likely it is to succeed as planned first time out. I suspect there won't be opportunities for retrospective analysis of unforeseen events in the case of the LHC.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

DiAne of the Illiterati, Oakhurst, CA — Wed, 02 Apr 2008 01:10:48 GMT

I heard of this topic on Alex Jones' Infowars broadcast today, he had Wagner on as a guest. I hear too much ho-ho-ho'ing going on, or apathy about the result. Doesn't anyone really care? Does life or our planet have any value? Is science more important than life?

Possibly this will turn out to be another false alarm-- I'm sure the LHC people will get their way, since the money is behind them, and states waiting for the results-- but people should be glad there's anyone out there concerned enough to debate the issue if there are any potential reasons why the experiments with these colliders shouldn't proceed. If they KNEW what would happen, they wouldn't be 'experimenting' with these colliders, they're doing it to find out what will happen.

I would rather be on the side of the conscientious objectors even IF it turns out we all get laughed at like the guys who said trains shouldn't go faster than 15mph or the air would get sucked out of the passenger compartment. Better to be laughed at for just thinking air would get sucked out of the compartment, than to have everything sucked down a black hole or have the atmosphere go off in an uncontrolled chain reaction.

I think someone here said that Einstein was concerned that lighting off atom bombs would create a chain reaction(Alex Jones mentioned that experiment on his show-- about the 100 atom bomb test 'to see what it would do'); and Einstein is one of the most respected scientists who was working on the foundations of the relativity equations-- who would laugh at his concern and he's one of the guys working out the equations. So maybe that theory was wrong; and maybe Wagner's concerns will turn out to be wrong. But would you laugh at someone who only wants to wait until we know for sure it's SAFE?

And even if our atmosphere didn't 'blow off' due to the ignition of 100 atom bombs, we still live under the terror threats of the mushroom clouds to this day. And building those bombs still lives with us today in the form of waste, in the form of potential death for the whole world. THOSE are very real; they may yet kill us all.

What far worse catastrophes can our scientists dream up with ever more extreme scientific experiments, and we have enough war materiel right now to blow up several worlds. No doubt governments and corporate interests are eagerly awaiting the results, taxpayers whether they want it or not like the nukes for war have to pay for it so corporations and contractors can profit.

If I'm wrong then thank God-- because I'm sure the LHC will proceed even IF someone behind the scenes knows it could have some unwanted flukes. It's not just science waiting for the results, it's people who want to make money off of it and I guess that's more important than being concerned about life or the quality of life on our planet.

If aliens are collecting and preserving our DNA, maybe it's because they've seen other worlds destroyed by similar research projects.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Ricardo Ribeiro, São Paulo, SP, Brazil — Wed, 02 Apr 2008 01:46:28 GMT

More power and more knowlege requires more caution and tests, and of course more time to do things. We can't expect to maintain the same velocity in discovering things as has akways been. We are talking of matters that we dont understand, yet. The true is that is we dont have the apropriate caution, we will end up in black hole or worse, this time or maybe in the next experience.

In the other hand, we cant stop our experiences because of fear. We need advance with caution.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

deezeez, Oakhurst, CA — Wed, 02 Apr 2008 05:27:39 GMT

Some of these comments are proof that the education system is a failure. The chance of anything bad coming from this experiment is ridiculously small. You are more likely to be struck by a small meteorite and die while walking to your car after winning the lottery.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Kevin Wilder, Hercules, California — Wed, 02 Apr 2008 09:04:14 GMT

mass hysteria. if it doesn't work, it's going to prove how easily humans can be manipulated into believing their reckoning is at hand!

wasn't the same hysteria used for things like the hydrogen bomb? and Y2K? it's all very confusing. oh well. even if we all die, we won't realize it. i'm with the smart people. turn on the doomsday masheen please!

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Robert Cook, Columbia, SC — Wed, 02 Apr 2008 19:01:20 GMT

I'm not qualified to judge whether mini black holes, stranglets, or magnetic monopoles are a danger (Dixon's supernova hypothesis is just plain dumb), but I am perfectly qualified to say that involving lawyers and politicians in scientific matters is.

Leave the physicists alone to do their jobs, and let the lawyers and politicians do theirs--which basically consists of partying down, selling out, breaking the law with impunity, and stealing the rest of us blind.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Sean, Iowa — Wed, 02 Apr 2008 20:54:37 GMT

A greater risk:

http://xkcd.com/401/

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

brokenengine — Wed, 02 Apr 2008 22:08:28 GMT

I propose we encourage the doomsayers, but go ahead and turn it on anyways. If you think the hippies got a lot of tail with the whole "Free Love" thing, imagine when all the birds think the world is going to end!

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

waldo — Thu, 03 Apr 2008 00:21:20 GMT

Too bad they didn't spend the money on something sensible. I hope they all get together at start up, the thing melts down taking them with it and then we can get back to addressing the earth's real problems.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Praveen, Champaign, IL — Thu, 03 Apr 2008 08:53:32 GMT

Ever wondered if the reason we never meet intelligents ETs is because everytime an ET civilization reached our current stage of development, they destroyed themselves with their own version of the LHC?

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Nick — Thu, 03 Apr 2008 10:53:02 GMT

They just want to learn how to make crazy ass weapons and space ships to fly around and provoke everyone else in the universe.

Dont trust the higgs bosons !

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Will Cox, nashville,TN — Thu, 03 Apr 2008 12:10:51 GMT

I have been interested in this kind of stuff for 2 years(I'm 13)now, And I have never heard of this even remotley happening. The chances are probably something like 1:100! thats a big number.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

JTankers, Middleton WI — Fri, 04 Apr 2008 13:39:49 GMT

edit↓
Dilbert Oops

Have you see the Dilbert Oops article?

And who exactly ran the numbers to decide it wasn’t that risky? After all, the whole point of the Large Hadron Collider is to create conditions that are not predictable. If someone already predicted what would happen using nothing but his laptop and Excel, and determined it was safe, I don’t think we’re getting our $8 billion worth.

I can’t see the management of this project spending $8 billion, realizing it was a huge boner, and then holding a press conference suggesting it be turned into a parking garage. I’ll bet a lot of people in that position would take at least a 5% risk of incinerating the galaxy versus incinerating their own careers. I know I would.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Nigel, Melbourne, Australia — Fri, 04 Apr 2008 13:53:28 GMT

Oh my god!! This has to be the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Has someone pointed out to these clowns that its NOT in the US?? Lets hobble progress, Let's all go back to steam driven cars, oh and put a man out front with a flag. Oh and while we're at it, waste a whole bunch of money that only the lawyers will make anything from.

And yes I think these guys are out of their minds. With fools like this around, the fall of the American Empire is nigh! So sue me for that!

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Butch, Geneva Illinois USA Earth Milky Way — Fri, 04 Apr 2008 14:52:02 GMT

What if creating a mini black hole is like pushing a pin into the brane and out pours another inflation event? Wouldn't that be a real kick in the pants.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Justice McPherson, Palmer, AK — Fri, 04 Apr 2008 18:12:52 GMT

For those saying that we don't know because the impacts happen in the upper atmosphere..
The MOON is exposed to countless numbers of those 28+ TEV cosmic ray impacts every second; it has no atmosphere, so the impacts happen on the ground in the gravity well. The moon has not been swallowed up by a black hole, and the moon soil we brought back was normal matter, not strange matter. Nobody expects these things to happen to the moon of have happened, and I think this is a good indicator of the probabilities involved.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Robert, Mesa, AZ — Fri, 04 Apr 2008 18:59:53 GMT

here's an equation egomaniacal scientists don't like to talk about:
hubris + greed = denial

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Hasheet Mydrawers — Sat, 05 Apr 2008 03:22:48 GMT

Dear MSNBC,
Please terminate this blog or it's going to accumulate sufficient mass to bend lightwaves and then were all glued, screwed and tatooed.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Marie Tørslev, Denmark — Sat, 05 Apr 2008 10:27:36 GMT

"the computer industry didn't even foresee that the century was going to end." - Douglas Adams

I am no scientist in any way. In fact I am a character designer and have no means of knowing what side to believe or how big the consequences are, win or lose.

What I am is an earthling. And I would like to continue to be. Why does CERN have the right to be in control of that happening? They are just people. They are just performing a job. We can't predict what it will lead to. Sometimes some things are better left alone. We have lived a long time without knowing what happened. I personally have not missed knowing exactly what made the universe spring into being - I know my mom hasn't. If we are to be the cause of doomsday - let it be an unforeseen accident. Not because of something we suspect a risk before we have even begun.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Chris Pereira, Worcester, MA — Sun, 06 Apr 2008 07:53:40 GMT

Personally, this seems to be a very harmless and straight foreward facility. They follow the elementry processes that we all learn in middle school science, and just take it up a notch. Nay sayers go back beyond even the steam engine, Luddites if i recall.

The government just wants to give those specific people a forum to discuss their woes, once they are told "its ok, have a cookie" then the LHC will run and things will go back to normal.

Just let humans be humans, if we kill the planet, YAY no more earth, if we survive, YAY we have earth.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

S. Daniel Zafar — Mon, 07 Apr 2008 00:18:05 GMT

i say dont do it. look, technology never did anything for us anyway. we would have been perfectly happy [without asbestos poisoning and not overweight] without it.

besides, even if the chance is 1x10^(-100000x10^(-100000)), the stakes are fairly high.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

T Campbell, Cambridge, Cambridgeshire — Mon, 07 Apr 2008 16:54:03 GMT

I would like to bring the Fermi Paradox into this debate together with Gamma Ray Bursts. I feel one of the reasons we see no evidence of intelligent life is that it destroys itself at the early stage of its technological development (in the search for the higgs-boson particle). I think the LHC will destroy not only the Earth but the solar system and a sizeable fraction of the galaxy. It will be viewed by other intelligences as a Gamma Ray Burst. It is totally irresponsible to plunge ahead with research when its saftey has not been guaranteed. We are not talking about a small explosion here, or even a massive one, but a final one. Nothing in the above messages provides any evidence that the HLC is safe. The arguments drawing analogies with cosmic particles are simply "stupid", as are those drawing other analogies. Analogies do not prove anything at all. Imagine a child playing with a hand-grenade. What will he do if left alone with it? He will pull the safety pin out to se what happens. Imagine a set of scientists who want to find the "God" particle (boson-higgs particle). What will happen if you leave them alone? They will smash paricles into each other under conditions that do not occur anywhere in today's Universe...

Professor T. Campbell

PS. Please don't reply with silly messages stating what others believe Gamma Ray Bursts to be!

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Gareth-Lee Meredith, Dunoon — Mon, 07 Apr 2008 18:43:31 GMT

I've read up extensively on Dr. Wagner's worries. He does point out though that cosmic energy collisions cannot be used anymore as a counter-arguement. The scientists, according to Wagner, have conceded the arguement.
A concern of mine is how Hawking Radiation even escapes the strong curvature produced by any black hole of size. How strong is the curvature just at the border of a black hole? Can any energy escape it?
Also, there is a theory Dr. Cramer mentions, that black holes are pair-productions with white holes. If this is true, then could a black hole created in the lab, eat enough energy from the white hole to buy enough time to reach the mass of the earth?

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Greg White, Harker Heights, TX — Mon, 07 Apr 2008 19:47:51 GMT

You know seriously, there was much concern in the 1940s that the detonation of a nuclear device would set the atmosphere on fire and the whole of the earth would burn away into nothingness...The chance that we may learn something new or validate some theories is exciting enough to warrant experimentation. Eiter way, it is going to be done sooner or later, so I say sooner. Let's see what the future holds. If this frightens you, then, well, sorry...

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Kassie Smith Waco, Tx — Tue, 08 Apr 2008 14:46:37 GMT

so this is like really, really, really freaky i want to know whats going to happen because this really could ruin every kind of religion ever known of and im not going to let that happen because i have faith and this is totally not cool

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Zach, Olympia, Wa — Tue, 08 Apr 2008 14:57:07 GMT

It is obvious to me that there are some very intelligent physicists working on this experiment, as well as commenting on this page. What I would like to remind you all, is that you are responsible for the experiments you conduct. If you want the public (most of which spend about 5 minutes a year reading about physics from a yahoo rss feed like me) to trust you, then you have to be patient and sit through the seemingly ignorant dialogue that takes place prior to huge breakthroughs.

Are these questions so important that they can't be answered 12 months from now? I am sure that all the problems in this world would be solved over night if we answered them right? (Is the foundation of modern physics right or wrong? What existed during the very first moment of the universe's existence? Why do some particles have mass while others don't? What is the nature of dark matter? Are there extra dimensions of space out there that we haven't yet detected?)

I think that the physicists need to understand that as a taxpayer, and a fellow human who may or may not be affected by their experiment, I expect the deepest scrutiny to be conducted on such massive undertakings before they hit the on switch. If we as the public are so ignorant, and shallow to not understand how great this is...then they need to spend some of their grant money on public relations and education.

I do understand something about science at profound scales...they often come with profound consequences. This is the common sense that these physicists must accept. If they are too dense, and inpatient to educate the public about their experiments, then they deserve to be served.

I don't think the plantiffs are doing this to stop the experiments, I think it is a stall tactic so we can conduct these experiments in a responsible and safe manner.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Steve Pica, Greenwich CT. — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 01:18:39 GMT

First of all...it's not going to happen.
Second...if it DOES happen...make sure you have plenty of booze in the house 'cause it's going to be a HELL of a ride!

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

It'll happen! — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 08:17:28 GMT

This is, perhaps, a silly lawsuit. But, as with nature, we should respect the big picture of checks and balances. The lawsuit will take a natural course and the LHC will become operational in time. Without these checks and balances, some mad scientist may really run loose and destroy the world. When the time comes, I will be excited to see what the experiments using the LHC reveil about our universe.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Tyson, Australia — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 09:03:34 GMT

To all those saying "Risks in science is what brings achievements" - I agree 100%. People take the risks, if they succeed, they discover something, if they don’t, others learn from their mistakes. The problem with the LHC is, if it fails, there won't be any others left to learn from the mistake!

The whole concept of the LHC experiment is flawed - Smash particles together at higher and higher energies and see what new things we find! An experiment should be conducted to prove a particular theory!

I honestly believe that LHC like experiments is the reason why other intelligent life hasn’t been observed. All intelligent life destroys itself before reaching space-faring technology. And the evidence will be out there for us to discover, if we have the patience and not turn on the LHC.

Let’s say some other civilization 100 million years ago, somewhere in the Milky Way did a similar thing we are about to do. They turn on their collider, a micro-black hole forms, and rather than evaporating (according to a theory (Hawking Radiation) that hasn't actually been observed yet), it persists. Due to being created by two particles travelling at opposite velocities, it is rather stationary. It starts falling to the centre of the earth. In the first few minutes its tiny size means it only has the chance to gobble up a few particles here and there. But after a few more minutes its exponential growth continues until the whole planet is absorbed (Within about 10 minutes). Where a great civilization used to exist, now is a dark point in space-time. Their artificial satellites continue to orbit the black hole, but are quite, receiving no more transmissions.

I can't win supporting this side of the story can I? If I'm wrong, I lose, if I'm right, we all cease to exist without ever knowing what happened? Apart from maybe a split second of intense rumbling coming from the ground...

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Jeff Sisney, Beebe, Arkansas — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 16:05:10 GMT

I've been trying to tell people about this for a couple of years. Most people glass over when you mention the word physics. One good thing I hope comes out of this is that the general population becomes informed !

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

bqld and wiser, naperville, il — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 18:34:18 GMT

I live near Fermilab in Illinois and nothing going on around here I would sue for. I'm just bald from living here, but getting wiser.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Neil TX — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 19:11:52 GMT

My question is, why do they let these people wait untill this thing is almost operational to try to disapprove of this. In my opinion, the people concerned with 'Doomsday' should have to bring this up before my goverment and several others spend whatever a piece of equipment like the LHC takes to build.

To me these people are causing a big mess about things im sure they have looked into long before anyone even broke ground to build this. This wasn't some top-secret project, so why wait till it is going to be operational to bring up restraining orders?

To me, that proves right there that these people have no solid reasons or evidence to shut this place down. This is not some big 'toy'. Millions-billions have been spent researching how to build the LHC and im sure at least someone looked into the 'maybes' like this. And if these people didnt find a reason not to fire it up, then lets bust up some particles....

Like someone said earlier, what a way to die right?
A supernova or blackhole is waaaayyyyy cooler than cancer or a car accident....

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

HLC — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 00:11:46 GMT

What do you think God is going to do when we come knocking on his door looking for his God particle...

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

HLC — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 00:19:56 GMT

Knock knock...who's banging on my front door...its me the LHC....what do you want at this time of the night...I was wondering if I could take a look at that God particle that you use to make all of creation...if I show you I would have to destroy all of my creation and start all over from scratch...do you still want me to show you...no answer.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Jared, Carlsbad, CA — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 05:33:36 GMT

On one hand you have the boys that cried doomsday. On the other hand you have an ENTIRE scientific community rolling their eyes. My individual argument is, the energy we put into this device isn't nearly enough to cause these chasms in space. I suppose in all fairness if the switch is flipped and reality as we know blinks out, they were right after all.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

John Doe, Seattle, Wash. — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 10:51:43 GMT

Lets reread what the academic PHD toting chimp just said 'That's pure science fiction, said Michio Kaku, a theoretical physicist at the City College of New York. "These black holes don't live very long, and they have microscopic energy, and so they are harmless," he told me. That statement relies on the existence of Hawkings radiation which they have yet to prove exists!! We know nothing about blackholes so to deliberately create them is stupidity on a monumental scale. Alot more research needs to be done and if that means hanging around for 500 years while we wait for deep space observations then thats just tough. These people have no sense of accountablity or awareness of their own blindspots. They talk about recreating the big bang in a controlled environment, has it occurred to them the big bang might just have been the last time they turned this thing on?? now thats science fiction!

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Andrew, Ireland — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 12:19:50 GMT

A few points... There are obviously irresponsible scientists around, but the fact that there does not seem to be a single expert in the field concerned about the apocalypse does point to a lack of any reasonable grounds for concern. I'm sure the two boys can move into a lucrative sideline selling tinfoil hats to protect from strangelets, however.
Also, and this is a thought that is often sparked by folks trash-talking religion on science forums, can anybody explain to me the difference between: 1- the faith some people have in scientists they don't know working in fields they blatantly don't understand; and 2-people who believe in a supernatural entity guiding life in an ineffable manner?
There's a lot of 'scientific' people around who would've been burning witches with the worst of 'em back in the day.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Manas chakraborty, kolkata, india — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 02:16:59 GMT

Man has the right to know "unknown", but its better not to enter in the domain of god so quickly.There is no harm in knowing the threshhold condition of universe 13.6 billion years ago, but that should not be at the cost of human life.. our beloved earth. Well in physics, some propositions are hypothetical, the result of which can not be produced in lab.The result of this experiment similarly does not guarantee a safe result even if our earth is not swallowed by a mini black hole.God do not want to see his earth as a lifeless mass roaming around the sun or vanishes in void

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

JTankers — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 06:53:48 GMT

The WORST case scenario is that a micro black holes accretes mass from quantum effects around its event horizon, turning vacuum energy into matter.

How often would cosmic rays of exact same mass, same speed, and perfect alignment collide precisely head-on to perfectly focus all energy to a single point?

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

John Jay, Oxnard, California — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 22:43:59 GMT

No need to worry about long term insurance or
next year's problems. The Large Hadron Collider
(LHC) may take care of everything, with one
BIG bang or thousands of smaller bangs!! What
a way to go!! Instantaneous oblivion!!

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Gareth-Lee Meredith, Dunoon, Scotland — Sun, 13 Apr 2008 15:02:05 GMT

Emmm but Alan... Hawking was the guy who thought things could move into black holes and enter other universes unscathed. It just tells us that the theoretical knowledge of black holes are dangerous to experiment with.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

chico no teno llama, GC — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 03:29:38 GMT

Hola chicos! I say we dont blowup the earth who cares if u make a new element or two! ITS ALL LIFE ON EARTH THATS LIKE SIX BILLION LIFE SENTENCES IN PRISON!

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

paul mann — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 04:29:47 GMT

Unfortunately the two arguments CERN gave to you, to reassure mankind of no danger – Hawking radiation and cosmic rays - are easily falsified as they deny the laws of logic and the experimental method:
1) The cosmic ray argument, the main one used by CERN, is easily proved false by standard logic methods. Since a cosmic ray is a very light, very fast high energetic particle (mainly protons, at best iron, light atoms) and a dark matter particle is an ultra dense, massive, very slow particle. So to pretend that they are the same, when its two main physical parameters, speed and mass are exactly the opposite is by reductio ad absurdum indeed a complete absurdity: if A is opposite to B, A is not B. And the probability of A being B is the absolute minimal in logic: 0. 2) Hawking radiation is a hypothesis never proved that denies Einstein’s work (Concerning the hypothesis Dr Hawking famously claimed: “Einstein is double wrong”) and breaks the main laws of logic and standard physics:
- The conservation of baryon number (quantum physics)
- The fundamental law of causality that moves time from past to future. Since baby black holes, according to Hawking, instead of growing exponentially as all new born species do, towards the future, evaporate backwards in time by absorbing antiparticles, which most physicists interpret as particles with the sign of its charge and hence its spatial movement reversed, but Hawking fancies to consider against all visual, experimental evidence to travel to the past. As a consequence of such bizarre idea the two main laws of time in physics become also reversed:
- First law of Thermodynamics: information and energy are never destroyed, except in Hawking’s black holes. It is the never-resolved information paradox, except if we admit that Hawking’s radiation is false, hence there is no information paradox and the laws of causality are respected.
- The Second law of thermodynamics: heat moves from the hot source to the cold source. However when we travel back to the past, heat moves from the cold to the hot source and so Hawking’s ultra hot black holes get hotter and disappear. This is like saying that kids instead of being hungry babies, will also disappear back to the past into their mother’s womb.
To notice that as it happens with all false theories, Hawking’s radiation has never passed the proof of experience. We have never found a black hole evaporating in the galactic halo, where Hawking predicted in his original Scientific American article they would be flaring like a Christmas tree.
‘ad hominem’ attempted disqualifications are of no importance in science. We still expect a serious logical or experimental, scientific prove of such theory. And yet, CERN, tells us that the LHC will reproduce black holes at the rate of one per second but those ‘black holes will evaporate via Hawking’s radiation’. Six words backing a falsifiable theory seem to be enough reasons for CERN to make an experiment that might extinguish us. If we have been lucky enough to survive so long as the seemingly only carbon life species of this galaxy, teeming with black holes, it seems absurd to risk the precious exception called mankind to prove a theory that defies all laws of standard physics and has never had an experimental proof, for the benefit of an industry with a budget of $13 billion. This indeed is the only explanation why the experiment is carried on, since Mr. Landsberg proved that the LHC could produce black holes only just recently, when most of the budget on the LHC had been spent. Obviously we cannot expect that a nuclear factory like Chernobyl in the past, or the LHC today, will admit it produces lethal products and voluntarily close itself down, despite the harm it can cause to mankind, unless a court orders an injunction.

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Shannon, Long Beach, California — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:37:35 GMT

Well not to totally disagree with everyone...but many of you are not scientists. As it is, even the people at CERN have admitted that there is not a risk of absolute 0 associated with the machine. Even though the risk is small, even less than a 1% chance, that tiny risk involves the whole of the earth. To some people, that isn't an alright risk to be taking without total and complete knowledge first and foremost.

I am all for the wonderful discoveries the LHC could make, but they should address the concerns of some of the public. People all over the world are scared, concerned, and confused about this amazing machine. It isn't just a few crazies in the world. Legitimate scientists with education and degrees to back them up are also expressing concerns. What the people at CERN are failing to do is recognize that all the concerns are and can be legitimate. They are ignoring many of them in the face of sound logic on the basis that their theories are face, a dangerous position to take in the world of science.

To believe in a theory is one thing, but to base an entire experiment that could potentially hurt or kill anyone on a theory is foolhardy at best.

Most of the people 'against' the LHC don't want it stopped totally, they want it slowed down at best. With an experiment of this scale and with the concerns raised by many people the world over, it is hard to believe the people at CERN aren't willing to give the public a little more.

Their explanations can be explained away, just like you people have explained away all the concerns. It doesn't mean you are right....it doesn't mean those concerned are right either mind you, but if they happen to be right, it does mean the end of the world supposedly.

If CERN truly has so much respect for science, and the community (you know, the community of EARTH) why aren't they willing to address these concerns a little better?

If this thing is so great and so wonderful, and so safe, why are they not willing to take a little more time to make sure the majority of the world feels a little safer. As it is, not everyone is alright with it and not everyone is afraid of it. There are a lot of people on both sides of the fence.

It is an issue of respect at this point, not science. CERN is disrespecting a lot of people all over the world by not properly addressing their fears and concerns. This isn't a machine that 'might' blow up France...it is a machine that 'might' hurt the whole world.

I should say that considering that no one at CERN has been able to say that there is absolutely NO threat posed to the Earth at all; they really should wait until they can say that. Or at the very least lessen the already small risk associated with the stupid thing.

If they want to fire it up so badly, why not prove it's alright to first?

They are acting like they simply don't care, or that they already have all the answers. Again I am going to insist that treating theories as facts is scientifically dangerous. These people in many ways are acting arrogant and very unscientific.

Everyone knows a theory is just a theory until it is proven. None of their theories about the relative safety of the machine have been proven....just like none of the theories of the relative dangers.

That right there says they should put a halt to it until they know more.

A 0.00000001% chance of destroying the world is still a chance of destroying the world. Why not slow down, and take some time to make sure that chance isn't so real. It isn't a huge favor to ask when you look at the big picture.

You aren't the only people on this earth, I'm not the only person, the CERN scientists are not the only people. Considering that the risk is to an entire planet of inhabitants...some not even old enough to understand or be a part of this discussion...I should say that it is only fair to listen to EVERY concern.

Everyone in this instance should have equal voice, equal say. This is everyone's planet, not just theirs or yours or mine. Why should it be up to a few thousand people what happens to billions.

Again, if there is no risk at all, or if the risk is really so small....CERN will have no trouble proving that. Once they prove the relative safety of the machine, the amount of nay sayers will shrink. Thus leaving a majority of the world to either not care...or support it.

CERN needs to get over themselves, so do all of you. This planet is shared by billions of people with differing opinions and if you are going to be putting them and their families at risk you should really be giving them a better explanation as to why and how.

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J Huxley, Lausanne, Switzerland — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:38:06 GMT

Regardless of the outcome of any court cases held in the US, the LHC will be activated and will hopefully produce some interesting results...

As has been mentioned, the worst outcome of this case will be the dealyed start of the project (without this 'safety' review) and loss of income to the US as the necessary parts are sourced elsewhere.

Anyone really believe that either France or Switzerland care one jot about US public opinion?

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CoreyG, Houma LA — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 15:47:55 GMT

The LHC threatens children! Does it wait for them in a van with no windows? These are some of the funniest comments I've ever read. It really shows how fear and ignorance go hand in hand. The only one I agree with 100% is the fact that we need Gordon Freeman on this job! And his crowbar too...FACECRAB!

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bringiton — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:30:23 GMT

I hope they flick the switch and the whole universe along with all you whining bitches disappears instantly.

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John Doe, any city, any state — Wed, 16 Apr 2008 13:08:59 GMT

Nice of them to be brave for us in the name of science.
Can't they do the Earth-shattering stuff on a planet I don't live on?
Just in case the impossible becomes possible.

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notepad, geneva, switzerland — Wed, 16 Apr 2008 14:27:19 GMT

35 days left.

It is possible that this Universe in 35 days does not exist anymore. And these are not esoterists these are scientists who think so.

Safety of this project should be reviewed or our Universe may be gone. Sucked up into a black hole actually.

CERN LHC will be in production mode on the 21. of May 2008

www.notepad.ch

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C. Janicki, Montreal, PQ, Canada — Wed, 16 Apr 2008 15:02:24 GMT

Bringing in experts sounds like a good idea. The problem is that nobody knows what's gonna happen. One may think this or that is gonna happen, but it's just a wish list. In 1999, no specialists at CERN would have said that mini black holes could be produced. The idea was ridiculed. Today, everybody at CERN say the LHC will produce mini black hole but they will evaporate but nobody really knows. Of course, if you ask Stephen Hakings if the mini black hole will evaporate, he will say yes, affimative. But he doesn't know either. He just belives in HIS theory. This is an act of faith, like a religion. The thin line between science and faith is not always clear, but in this case there is no doubt the line has been crossed.

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Bobby joe — Thu, 17 Apr 2008 01:22:42 GMT

my lovely science teacher just will not believe me but it is true. The LHC is a big breakthrough in technology. so ha ha the Large Hadron Collider does exist and can and will make history.

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El Jimbo — Fri, 18 Apr 2008 19:35:23 GMT

Wow. Too much for my brain to dissect. Hey. What's that black thing forming next to my desk? It's getting bigger, where'd the dog go??!! Hey! Wait Auuuuggghhh...

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V.I, Rego Park, NY — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 18:31:52 GMT

I have read into this article and subject matter several times. I am not a scientist nor educated with a degree in any scientific field. I am a science enthusiast. I believe that as human beings we love to explore the possibilities. Remember some of the greatest explorer/inventors: Columbus, Wright Brothers, Neil Armstrong, ETC..
What I don't understand is how some of you can be so afraid! It reminds me of how most of the settlers were afraid when first coming to North America from Europe, ever read about that?
Yep, Thats history! This is history as well. Progress will not be stopped.
If anything was meant to be, it will and no court will stop it. By the time the worst happens...we wont be around to realize it as it will be so quick!

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Melaniki — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 23:51:21 GMT

Such is the way of European men in the opinion of my indigenous ancestors, who cared for this planet for thousands of years. Left-brained, unspiritual, mechanistic, analytical, cold and detached from all things nature and life. Interested only in power and how to weild it not just for world control but for control of the universe. Mad men, for whom insanity is normal. As a wise scholar postulated "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting to get a different result." --Even when the original result is catastrophic. A cult of death spitting in the face of life. So--as the character Ian Malcolm in Michael Crichton's classic, novel and film, "Jurassic Park," noted--"You were so enamored that you could, you never stopped to think if you should." Men with a god complex, who actually think they have the right to endanger the lives of billions, so long as it is in "the interest of science." Which really means "for the glory of a few" with the money of many.

"The devil is one man with an agenda. But true evil is a collaboration of men." Fox Mulder, X-Files. (in this case a Sci-FACT rather than Fiction.)

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Rantacular — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 07:32:24 GMT

Do we have to do this on earth? C'mon can we first think of a way to move to another side of the universe before we even attempt a remotely dangerous theory like this one? I realize how improbable some of those doomsday scenarios are but we're just basing our knowledge on theories. And there happen to be some pretty scary doomsday theories out there. But they're probably wrong right? Wrong, as scientists we do need to realize one basic principal of science itself and the fact still remains that even an idea can be right when it comes to theories. Theories are not solid evidence just the most likely the closest thing we have to the truth. Because they don't include the entire truth. What if this time it turns out worse than the atom bomb? Some consequences of that whole ordeal weren't fully understood. And hasn't the earth been through enough of this? Its our home and I don't try any crazy experiments in my house I just leave that for the lab. Sure I'll work on the data and what not at home but the actual test is kept in a lab where it won't hurt anybody. Is it fair to do certain experiments that some people feel as there lives are at stake? I could even pose the question: is it moral to undergo an experiment that some find life threatening? Questions that many in the search of truth forget to inquire. So lets sit down and think about this one and hopefully implement some more safety measures? Because that is ethical research.

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Darren — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:09:20 GMT

As always in History, there are never any answers found by scientists, only more questions.... BUT IT IS ENTERTAINING - "fate of the earth" stuff - have'nt had that in ages!

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Teenage Nerd, UK — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 16:28:03 GMT

It strikes me that this lawsuit really is a waste of time.
If the LHC works, we potentially gain a large amount of knowledge about the universe.
If it doesn't, we all die in one of a few thousand exotic but unspeakably cool ways, and after that no-one's gonna care about lawsuits anyway.
Even taking the viewpoint that it's worth preventing the risk of the destruction of the world, it's not like it's gonna have much effect. Give it ten years, a century, or a couple of millennia- if humanity is still around, eventually someone's gonna choose to mess with spacetime and risk the universe as we know it. Why wait?

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Yay for Science — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:14:07 GMT

So what good will the LHC bring?
Another fun fact proven, hurray!
And what can we do with that fun fact?
With this fun fact can we cure cancer, can we stop world hunger, can we solve actual pressing matters? Unlikely, with this theory proven we wasted years of research and funding with absolutely no benefits whatsoever. Not to mention potentially putting our lives at risk. CERN has done nothing good with this project just caused a huge argument amongst the scientific community and brought back that age old dispute around the benefits of nuclear and quantum physics. To be honest I like the rest of you can live without this theory being proven. I guarantee all of you that this experiment is a big waste of money and time. And quite frankly our greatest minds still have more pressing matters to attend to rather than putting all their hope and dreams into a pointlessly extravagant project like this one.

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Ian, Columbus, OH — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 15:54:44 GMT

This is a joke. Firstly, there is no such thing as 0% probability. Quantum physics tells us that. So no one can ever say there is no chance of something happening. This should reviewed? By whom, God? The experts on the subject are running the thing! If they truly thought there was a real chance of something bad happening, they wouldn't do it. What the heck is wrong with people? There is such a hatred for science in the world and especially in this country. The science tells us the doomsday scenarios are bogus, and there is nothing else to say about it.

What if I said all cars must be halted immediately because of the possibility that their rate of travel will slow down time for the occupants, causing a greater chance that they might be suddenly transported to deep space? Everything I said is phisically possible. Time certainly slows down for the occupants in a moving vehicle relative to the ground, and quantum physics tells us that particles can suddenly be transported to random points in space. So this is definitely a concern worth halting all the world's economies for. It is just as probable as the theories in this article. The only difference is that most people understand how cars are supposed to work, while almost no one knows how the LHC works.

And for those of you complaining that this is a waste of money, just be lucky that all those other "wastes of money" were not nixed by the naysayers. We would not have the United States if it was decided that poverty was a greater concern than discovery. It may not have made sense then, but if that money had been put towards eliminating hunger and poverty in the 1400s, we would still be in Europe, starving and poor. I agree that those are pressing issues, but discovery is the only thing humans have that allows us to grow from what we are now to something better. The discoveries made at LHC probably won't affect your day-to-day life. It may be hundreds of years before that information can be used. But it will be, and we have to make them in order to progress.

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Jeff, Frisco, TX — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 22:48:43 GMT

Does anyone actually understand the known science behind the LHC?? Unless your retinal scan in is the system I bet you don't. Do you really think that protons colliding at the speed of light can destroy the earth? I say worst case scenario is there is a chain reaction that damages the equipment. No more no less. There have been similar experiments just like this one, on smaller scales, before. GET A GRIP PEOPLE. The only danger is discovering one more tiny grain of information of something we aren't even close to understanding that leads to another strain of theorys. Most of this is all theory anyway. Ever take a class in Quantum Physics?

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Jeff, Frisco, TX — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 23:20:26 GMT

I have to say one more thing. For people who want to slow this down: This project was proposed in 1980. Do you really think in the last 28 years they have not looked at all the dangers?

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james smith edinburgh scotland — Sun, 27 Apr 2008 08:31:16 GMT

To be or not to be that is the question.
The big problem with this project is truth, CERN claim it is safe but no definition of safe has been put forward.
If I stated to you that I had a dream last night and in that dream I claim that I took two fine crystal glasses and slammed them into each other at speed and nothing happened would you believe that this happened or would you claim the possibility that they could have smashed into thousands of pieces. Also would you not claim that your answer was more probable in reality than my answer as mine was in a dream, Welcome to the world of physics people where the rules are still being written , Where the search for answers are based or triggered by I common denominator IMAGENATION .
Now the truth of the matter is simple, no one knows 100% what the outcome will be if any reaction or no reaction will occur, they can only surmise the outcome.
Now from what I have read in the above posts, most of you do not have two brain cells to rub together and act in a standard typical manner giving standard typical response, If taking this into a court will at least prove that no corners have been cut regarding safety of this project then that can only be a good thing.

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Carmen, Sacramento, California — Sun, 27 Apr 2008 18:15:32 GMT

I know people who work on this and I can assure you that all of this doomsday nonsense is a fat pile of bs!

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Amanda, Ottawa, ON, Canada — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 15:30:05 GMT

Wow, looking at his website, I'd say Luis Sancho is a complete genius (HAHA!!! - kidding!) I mean crackpot! It looks like mad-libbed science! He's not actually saying anything real.

Let the scientists do the science, please!

I do however agree that there is a very, very, very small chance of the 'doomsday' scenario occurring, but only because you can never say never. The scientists are getting stuck because they refuse to say that it is a complete impossibility that this will happen, but a scientist's version of unlikely is not at all the same as a lay person's version of unlikely. A scientist's definition of unlikely is what most people would consider to be impossible.

I really hope that this gets thrown out of court. Obviously the scientists don't want to die either, so if there was any (realistic) chance of destroying the Earth, they wouldn't do it.

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Steffie Toronto,,,ont. — Tue, 29 Apr 2008 01:14:12 GMT

Since we are living in the endtimes...which is so obvious to people who've taken the time to read their Bibles and read what God has written in advance so we are without excuse..this experiment may prove more than man can handle. Maybe something from this will cause cataclysmic chaos as Bible predicts..

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MS — Thu, 01 May 2008 15:46:45 GMT

Why would anyone think it's a good idea to try and re-create the big bang!?! Something is obviously going to go wrong. I think people shouldn't be playing around with that sort of power and in my eyes this is destined to fail. Who are these people to put the lives of every living thing on the planet at risk for their own curiosity. Ok so if it works it will probably answer a few questions about our existence but if it doesn't it will possibly wipe out the Earth! Why take the risk? I think this project is insane and i really think someone should put a stop to it.

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Kyler MacDonald, CT — Fri, 02 May 2008 00:59:59 GMT

There are too many "mights" and "maybes" involved here...

I'll be the first one to vote a hearty yes for anything that could potentially better humanity in general. This LHC though has (perhaps) too little fact behind it to be worth testing. We don't really even know how it could help us. Vast intelligence is useless without common sense.

Regardless of all doom involved, this thing should be fired, but not without due consideration for safety and, um, the survival of the human race. Proceed with care.

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Drea, Omaha, NE — Tue, 06 May 2008 02:54:31 GMT

Even a slight chance of catastrophe is way too much for me. It's not worth jeopardizing lives and our planet, even potentially. Say one of these theories that possibly can happen does... the risk is too great. These scientists will say what they need to to get their project running- even if it means comparing apples to oranges. The threat of wasted money means more than the threat of wasted lives.

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John Doe, Seattle, Wash — Wed, 14 May 2008 06:08:56 GMT

There is only 1 day left! I'm really excited to hear about all the new discoveries - I'm sure there will be many. I hope that when they are just about to throw the switch they pick up the phone and call the moron who started this lawsuit to tell him. Wow he must have failed geography if he thinks that Europe is part of the USA. Their courts have no authority lol!

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Susantha Herath — Wed, 14 May 2008 10:25:44 GMT

"Higgs Boson" I like that name, it is similler to "Pierce Bosnon" in James Bond. I think that is a lovely name for a boy child.

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Hayden M, New Zealand — Wed, 14 May 2008 11:32:32 GMT

Even if doomsday happened, there wouldn't be any lawyers left to say "I told you so".

The Lawyers should be sueing the universe for not disclaiming the potential risks involved with existing.

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Patrick James, Vancouver BC, Canada — Thu, 15 May 2008 01:52:13 GMT

Our universe is a very large place. High energy particle reactions far exceeding the energies of the LHC have occurred on a massive scale throughout the universe. No known evidence from these reactions exists which would support theoretically sustained/ runaway black holes, strangelets or magnetic monopoles. This evidence or lack thereof although not 100% conclusive should nonetheless provide comfort to all that the LHC will not produce these theoretical events. Remember that 100% proof is only theoretical in our universe so we have come to accept reasonably high results as proof of all that we know and accept scientifically.

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THE ONE - CITY OF THE PHOENIX - STATE (unknown) — Fri, 16 May 2008 21:32:10 GMT

December 2012 thats funny you mentioned that date....many people arent aware of that date..............................BUT I KNOW
SOMETHING YOU DONT KNOW..........

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Unclesharkey Maryland — Fri, 16 May 2008 22:28:42 GMT

Don't you all know that this is how the universe was created. We created it! I think this is like the 4th or fifth time we have done this. In a past life I was a particle specialist and was there for the last event. See you in the next incarnation of the universe. See people now we know our purpose, it is to create the universe!

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Jonas Markusson, Stockholm — Mon, 19 May 2008 17:03:57 GMT

Humanity is not in a rush for these results, todays researchers are. Humanity could wait 100.000 years until the risks have really been examined and perhaps there'd be a vacant galaxy to experiment in. This constant meddling with forces which are unknown quantities to us will end in catastrophe to us eventually. There is no alternative scenario, if we keep pushing the buttons in a rush we're going to blow ourselves up. I don't let people experiment with dynamite in my home, we shouldn't let scientists experiment with black hole and associated energies on our planet.

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John, Goodland Kansas — Tue, 20 May 2008 23:49:10 GMT

The nice thing is that no matter what happens, we don't have to hear Wagner and Sancho say "I told you so." Let's get on with it and leave the theoretical physics to the theoretical physicists.

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"ace WILKING", Burbank, CowLeafHorniYa (as my Governator says it) — Wed, 21 May 2008 08:33:03 GMT

Dear Alan,

Avoiding the topic completely, I just want to tell you how much I enjoyed reading this thread, and all the responses. I have not had this much fun since I ended my subscrition to The Sceptical Enquirer.

Thanks!

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Leigh, Orlando — Fri, 23 May 2008 04:37:21 GMT

4 months isn't an unreasonable delay to evaluate. Give them the time, make a decision, and move on.

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elizabeth murray brown fort william scotland uk — Fri, 23 May 2008 13:24:14 GMT

Hi
As a voice hearer, I'm really concerned about this particle collider test - Earth is the only home we have to live on in the here and now - if something was to go drastically wrong - how could we all survive? I'm all for science being forwarded but not when the majority people's choice and voice on how and where and the cost in terms of danger to planetary/interplanetary existence is turned into the minority. When the earliest Big Bang took place in the year dot there was no Life as we now know it -

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Bill Kelly Bethpage, NY — Tue, 27 May 2008 17:53:11 GMT

Paul Dixon Psychology professor. Why is his name even in this article? I think I will call my English professor from college and my gym teacher from HS and get their theory's printed. (My gym teacher had a big mouth his opinion should be taken VERY seriously, maybe even as fact :) Anyway, about the rest of this lawsuit garbage. What is the lawsuit about? Who are they trying to protect? If I understand it correctly, they are concerned that the LHC will destroy the earth, who told them earth was supposed to last forever? (For all we know in 2010 (or whenever), a giant earthquake could set off every volcano known to man and start tsunamis that wipe out any remaining life.) It is not as if after the catastrophe there will be anyone around to say "look at this mess, why didn't they stop this with a law suit or something? Now I am all alone, woe is me. Who's gonna help me tidy up, and where will I find any clean under wear?" Seriously, there will be NO after math. You know the riddle, if a tree in the woods falls and there is no-one around to hear it, does it make a sound? The new riddle will be, If the earth implodes and sends the other planets off there orbit and they smash into the sun will I still get a late fee from my mortgage bank? Answer: Probably. But there still won't be any one around to give a crap! Game Over! This is not a tsunami or earthquake, no cleaning up or lamenting over lost love ones, it is the END of existance. On the other hand, if we do not implode, science can possibly learn valuable, otherwise unobtainable info, maybe a new source of energy for instance. Then it is totally worth it, is it not? Worse case scenario is actually that very little is discovered, an answer or two to curiosities about science for instance. Billions of dollars spent so that some scientists can say, "Ah, so that's it! I'm good now. Shut it down." This would be a disaster, that money could definitely have been spent helping countries/people in need. But then again that is what science is about, discovering and experimenting. Unfortunately those things cost huge amounts of cash, and it has already been spent so FIRE IT UP!!
Wagner and Sancho are very learned people that seem to want the world to know the vastness of their scientific knowledge. They want their arguments and counter arguments in science journals to be studied forever... or until sometime in 2009 when the LHC destroys the universe.

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Jakub, Liberec, Czech Republic — Tue, 27 May 2008 23:27:44 GMT

Let's start it with courageous hearts and we'll see!

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bill,ny,ny — Wed, 28 May 2008 03:58:06 GMT

The Potential for Danger in Particle Collider Experiments
Available at: Risk Evaluation Forum, March 2005----------------Return to Risk Evaluation Forum Home Page
(This is an abstract of a longer paper. It has been abstracted for posting on the Risk Evaluation Forum website.)

Summary:

The upcoming Large Hadron Collider (LHC) at CERN could be dangerous. It could produce potentially dangerous particles such as mini black holes, strangelets, and monopoles.

A CERN study indicates no danger for earth, [Ref. 1] but its arguments are incomplete. The reasons why they are incomplete are discussed here.

This paper considers mainly micro black holes (MBHs) with low speeds. The fact that the speed of resultant MBHs would be low is unique to colliders. An important issue is the rate of accretion of matter subsequent to MBH creation.

This study explores processes that could cause accretion to be significant.

Other dangers of the LHC accelerator are also discussed.

[Alan says: Bill quotes the entire posting from Risk Evaluation Forum. You can read the entire item at this URL:

http://www.risk-evaluation-forum.org/anon1.htm

[For the benefit of Bill and others, I'd like to remind folks that it's better to link to long documents rather than posting the entire text here.]

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james, ottawa — Fri, 30 May 2008 23:33:59 GMT

I think what people don't realize is that humanity's future is far from certain. I don't know the number offhand but its something like 0.1% of all species that have ever existed still exist on earth. Species go extinct plain and simple. If we just keep going without advancement so will we eventually. If the scientists say this is safe lets do it. You can't theoretically model this. So we either do this experiment or we stop scientific progress in its tracks... forever. And seriously have you ever hear of the boy who cried wolf. This guy was saying the same thing for the RHIC, he's going to keep saying this with every new accelerator. You simply can't reach these energies without doing something like this.

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Jordan Suber, Crescent, Georgia — Sun, 01 Jun 2008 18:10:45 GMT

This makes me so happy to hear that they are finally taking this to court.
In my opinion the public should be notified...as in on the news and in newspapers..this is such a serious matter!!! Why are people not taking it seriously?

-CrystalTourniquet

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Roddy, Russelville Ar. — Sun, 01 Jun 2008 23:45:03 GMT

This is one step closer to proving there is no God. So brings out the fear.

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jdtseattlewa — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 19:39:20 GMT

Well, at least well solve the "Fermi Paradox"

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jdtseattlewa — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 19:46:09 GMT

Joe Holland
Sorry, no blink of the eye end in this one, think of a constantly growing rash of rumbles that graduate in more and more severe earthquakes, frequency slowly growing closer and closer together. Not pleasent and not quick.

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Sarah F, Lancashire, UK — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 14:08:24 GMT

I am fully for the LHC. I used to be afraid like these two nutjobs but unlike these nutjobs I did my research, spoke to people who have contacts in CERN and realised how wonderful this is!! All this lawsuiting is going to do is give ignorant people unnecessary anxiety disorders. Then again, anyone who *truly* believes the world will end by this, 2012, 2010, whatever, I think they need a doctor. And my argument has always been, if this is gonna kill us then we would have died in 2000 from the RHIC. I hate people over-sensationalising things, even after reading this I cannot see why this is going to court. But this will be futile as by the time this goes to court it will be switched on anyway. I'd say fire it up and wait to see what results we will gain!

Oh yes, this did not cause the China earthquake. Yeah, would you believe people believe that it caused the China earthquake? People are looking for attention.

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Sarah F, West Lancashire, UK — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 14:28:06 GMT

The world were supposed to end in 1999 according to hysterical interpreters of Nostradamus.
The RHIC were supposed to kill everyone off in the same situation in 2000, according to hysterical interpreters.
In 2012 we're supposed to all die, according to hysterical interpreters.
Have you noticed it's the people with no scientific knowledge who are quick to jump to conclusions about this and panic like they think it's clever and fact?
Have you noticed the scientists or scientifically minded are more relaxed because they want to understand what's going on, and know the facts?
Have you noticed it's the hysterical who believe the LHC and 2012 will be a doomsday scenario?
Who the hell are these two people anyway?? They have no clue about this, they just have a lot of money and no sense.
I say fire it up, I am very excited to see the results!!!

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Gary Feierbach, Belmont, CA — Wed, 04 Jun 2008 23:03:20 GMT

I agree that micro black holes are so short lived that they are nothing to be worried about. They would self distruct faster than they would be able to accret more matter. I worried about this before it was known that even large black holes decay and the smaller the faster these things decay.

The magnetic monopole arguement is laughable. I had a physic professor at UCB (1961) that believed in them and made periodic trips to the north magnetic pole in search of them. Of course he never found them. I think he just fell in love with the idea since it made Maxwell's equations more symetric.

The idea that strangelet not only exist but can turn other matter into strangelet matter as well is not that far fetched. We perhaps have examples with large neutron stars that convert to quark stars and release a big chunk of energy in the process. Perhaps you could call the result one big strangelet. On the other hand it is beyond unlikely that the LHC can do this since we should be seeing this happening somewhere withing our solar system since the cross section of all that matter (including the asteroid belt) and 8 million years of cosmic rays bombardment should have made this happen long ago. It should also make some stars that we have observed and classified in the past do something spectacular long before their predicted end-of-life. As long as we can keep explaining what we see without strangelets they will slowly fade into obscurity with flogiston and aether.

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patrick, San Jose, CA — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 21:02:18 GMT

Every new and ever-stronger accelerator results in the discovery of new sub-atomic particles and the call for yet more billions to build that one more device that will answer the new questions posed by the resulting information. There looks no end to the statements by these researchers that "more research is needed".
To the point that there may be some tragic end to these high energy experiments, I wonder just what provoked that big bang that they trying to duplicate, albeit on a very small scale? Perhaps it was started by just such an experiment in another universe...

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anonymous — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 17:33:33 GMT

For people who know nothing about science like me, this article was very confusing. What is this thing supposed to do again? After all I have yet to take a physics class. Without understanding what it really does I can't exactly go to bed at night without thinking, BLACKHOLE! I like concrete stuff not theoretical stuff.

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anonymous — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 18:01:27 GMT

I'm going to pretend I never heard a thing about this. I hope the optimists are right, it'll be okay. *Breathes in and out* I need to go back to my final exam project now... Has anyone read Revelations in the Bible? Please don't insult my Christian background, if you haven't.Thanks.

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anonymous, — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 19:08:46 GMT

From the Previous Anonymous person (again),go Ken C. from Raleigh, NC,I couldn't have said it better myself. And the lady who said "It basically scares me and threatens children". I had to laugh but that sums up how I feel. I like science, but not the insults that I recieve from people in the science field on a regular basis. You know that Christians and scientists can get along. Advances in science are important. Like Advances in medical science.Its just when Lewis and Clark made a flying machine they didn't threaten people with strangelets, miniblack holes, or magnetic monopoles. When Darwin created the theory of evolution he also didn't threaten people with strangelets, mini black holes or magnetic monopoles.
(I have to admit as a Christian I find the evolutionary theory to have a good point, maybe thats what creation looked like. But whatever it looked like it doesn't matter to me anymore, what matters it that it happened somehow)And what matters to me is that I don't care about the mystery of the universe, I like living and I feel there are more important things life than the mystery of the universe.

If you want to find the mystery of the universe, find a middle ground, where you can both ease peoples fears and still conduct the experiment. They could go up in a space shuttle and if things go well they can come back and tell us "Its safe to do on earth!" and then I'll have no problem. I know that people have good intentions, they don't want to kill anybody, I'm very curious to see how things go but I also don't want to risk trillions of other peoples lives. Where not talking about one subject here, Earth, we're taking trillions of people. People should have the right to determine their own future not a few scientists in France, whom I know have the best of intentions, but are risking peoples lives. Judges don't need to be scientists to understand that. And it would hurt to play it safe.

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anonymous — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 19:16:59 GMT

From the previous anonymous person, dear Gary Feierbach, i want to thank you for calmly explaining the risks to me, (I am ignorant I know) and I still want it to be conducted safely far away, but that does help. thank you for being one of the proud and few who didn't insult Christians, of which are not all ignorant like me.

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anonymous — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 19:22:54 GMT

From the Previous Anonymous person, dear Roddy, Russelville Ar., it not about the fear of proving there is no God, its simply the fear of a greater Atomic Bomb. Although from what I've seen I now know that is highly unlikely. I hope you refrain from such comments again in the future, since it is highly insulting. Thanks.

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James Tankersley Jr — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 20:53:11 GMT

Safety Issues in Layman's Terms...

I am assisting in educating about the potential danger and counter unsupportable public relations statements of “no danger”, “don’t worry…” concerning operation of the Large Hadron Collider.

The physicists involved, actually a majority of experimental physicists really really want to believe that this type of experimentation is safe, otherwise it could shut down a huge amount of science research.

The problem is not only might it be unsafe, it might be really really unsafe.

A primary issue is that the energies are so high that the experiment may collapse some particles into ‘micro black holes’. (CERN estimates possible creation at a rate of one per second).

If these exotic particles evaporate or grow extremely slowly, then there would be no problem. However several PHDs in Math and Physics and other theoretical sciences (I can provide quotes and links) believe that BOTH might be false. Micro black holes may likely NOT evaporate and they likely might grow relatively QUICKLY.

That might mean that in a matter of just perhaps a few years or decades a single micro black hole could grow so large that it might actually collapse the entire Earth into it.

CERN wishes to start operating the LHC experiment later this year and is planning to release a study that will attempt to prove safety. But it might not be possible. And the fear is that the experiment might go forward anyway, with the hope that it will prove to be safe…

The alternative is hugely negative for the thousands employed by the experiments and who have been working for years to conduct their experiments. Big stakes for careers, science, prestige, funding, etc.

A court case before US Federal Courts to compel reasonable proof of safety has its first hearing on June 16, 2008 in Hawaii.

More information is also available at other sites, including <a href="http://www.LHCFacts.org">LHCFacts.org</a> and <a href="http://www.LHCDefense.org">LHCDefense.org</a> (wealth of quotes, links, articles, etc. from independent sources and credible experts).

Cheers,
JTankers

A good discussion in layman’s terms is available on YouTube video. Interview with <a href="http://www.lhcdefense.org">Nuclear Physicist Walter L. Wagner</a> with Coast to Coast AM
“LHC may cause mini black hole and swallow earth”:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL2ghqv5mCg" >part 1 of 4 </a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTTbVmxbqZM&feature=related" >part 2 of 4 </a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oabjc8hr6n0&feature=related" >part 3 of 4 </a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJQO-bkqBHw&feature=related" >part 4 of 4 </a>

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Frank Butternet, Jacksonville, FL — Thu, 12 Jun 2008 20:55:56 GMT

For those under the belief there will not be enough mass to stabilize a microscopic black hole should one occur, you are forgetting where it will occur.

As soon as the existence of a single microscopic black hole appears, a large portion French population will flood the area in an attempt to surrender to it. The gravitational pull of that many white flags in a single area will surely provide enough residual energy allowing for the black hole to break through any/all CERN security measures and occupy Paris.

Throughout the ensuing chaos, the Black Hole will be secretly depositing large quantities of jewels, gold and priceless artwork within the nearby Swiss Banks. This fact alone will save the planet, since if the black hole truly becomes the master of our race, it will need the absconded money to support its lavish life style in the foreseeable future.

I would say that when they turn this thing on, you are all doomed. As for me, I’m investing in tin foil..

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The One... — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 17:08:56 GMT

Listen people, seriously. Why do we persist in exploring space when we have serious issues here on Earth to fix first. Something is going to happen. 12/12/2012, mark the date on your calendar. There is a discovery that is going to take place late 2010, early 2011 that will change everything we've ever come to known up to this point. Anyone still believe that we are alone in this universe? Have you not recognized the signs? Do you realize what the saying "...faster than humanly possible..." means? We already have technology from out of this world, and continue to get technology from out of this world. The LHC is just another step. Another sign. I pray for you all! p.s. can anyone tell me whatever happened to cloning? Wasn't that supposed to be the next big scary thing? Did it happen? Is it still happening?

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GGordon — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 01:39:48 GMT

I don't feel safe in this world no more
I don't want to die in a nuclear war
I want to sail away to a distant shore
And make like an ape man

The Kinks

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ArmyOfAardvarks — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:47:42 GMT

What's going to happen when it's turned on? We simply don't know. Is it likely to destroy all human life? We don't know. There's no way to calculate the probability of our destruction when this is an experiment in the first place. We have some nice theories about MBHs and how they'll just evaporate. But this is just theory.

Sorry if it sounds like I should be wearing a tin-foil hat, but there are just too many unknowns here.

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JC, Durango CO. — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 09:06:38 GMT

Using the statement "You fear what you dont know." is hardly an argument here. The fact that there can be the smallest percentage or a cotastrophe is still a percentage, and one I'm sure many people dont want to take. People need to quit bieng concieted and think of the next person rather than themselves. Also who cares what we find out from this, most of what we learn from "big bang" is all theory anyway and people use a theory as actual fact for things that require solid evidence, its kind of redundant.

Fire it up or not, I dont care. What Im saying is that they need to take into account the people that do care.

It will be awesome to see what they do learn from it, but at the same time if they dont turn it on, Im sure the world will continue. Its not like we are relying on this machine to live or continue existance. Ill laugh my butt off when they turn it on and nothing at all happens except the waste of millions of dollars.

Whats more important, knowledge or the existance to actually gain more knowledge.

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John Doe, Seattle, Wash — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 17:13:51 GMT

stop being afraid of every little thing we don't understand really... lol you're so right I mean we should just embrace every idea with open arms and let science do anything they want without question. Won't that be fun. I honestly in my gut think the scientists are being myopic. they see the holy grail so to speak and of course they are going to tell us everything is fine. The reality is no one knows for sure, thats why everything is theory. so my life your life and everyones life hangs in the balance of the theory. Now I actualy realize that I dont know enough to make an informed opinion so Im not going to but what I do know is theories are just that, theories, and sometimes they are wrong. So if creating black holes that we really dont understand on earth is a little thing could someone tell me what a big thing is??

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Mon, 23 Jun 2008 20:11:58 GMT

Who cares about a Higgs Boson particle or some quark gluon soup except a handful of frustrated geeks who have run out of ideas and have to experiment with forces they don't even understand. These freaking physicists waste money and energy time and time again building atom smasher after atom smasher and end up with more questions, not answers. Now they've built one so powerful they say themselves it will create mini black holes at the rate of one per second! Which would change your life more; knowing they found some particle or getting crushed and sucked into a black hole along with everyone and every thing you ever cared about?
That sound like a good risk vs. benefit to you, Einstein?!?
See for yourself;
http://www.risk-evaluation-forum.org/anon1.htm
http://www.LHCDefense.org/
http://www.LHCFacts.org
http://www.SaneScience.org/
Popular Mechanics - "World's Biggest Science Project Aims to Unlock 'God Particle'" - http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/extreme_machines/4216588.html"

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Ck — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 07:16:26 GMT

Our world as we know it will not further advance if the legal system stops such experiments on the basis of environmental and fears of the end of the world. if collumbus had withdrawn from his expedition, the world would still be flat. And if Oppenhiemer hadn't performed his experiments due to the fear and prosecution from the legal system, the world would not be the same, free from bombs none the less but world war two most certainly would have ended differently. so without great risks this would would not be great. the likely hood of the world ending or catastrophic prosecution's is that minute anyway so turn the god dam thing on.

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Gloria Callighan, Lawrenceville, NJ — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 18:11:45 GMT

Scientists can't cure cancers and other diseases and now they feel they have to know the unknown. Stop the launching of the LHC. You don't know what you are dealing with. It will be catastrophic to the entire planet. Stop it now. Start an email list, stop it now.

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Bob Greene, P.O. 512, Pikeville, Ky 41502 — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 18:49:54 GMT

These mad scientists must be stopped!!!! Or at least, the billions of residents of planet earth should have a vote in the matter. I don't want my life used as a gambling chip by someone who says, "Trust me, I am a nuclear scientist"

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amy — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 01:38:58 GMT

I have to agree on voting no. the people who turn this on will be in a nice safe cozy place if things go wrong, while the rest of us or toast.

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Darren, UK — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 14:11:51 GMT

The Mayans said the world would end in 2012!

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Manny, anytown, usa — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 06:36:32 GMT

I just don't think 50 million to one odds of an earth ending disaster is worth risking. Is finding proof of other dimensions going to help us clean up the pollution? Is finding Higgs boson particles going to end war? I honestly don't see the point of taking the chance or going to the expense just to give some physicists [some pleasure].

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ancelmo luizgraceli — Sat, 05 Jul 2008 12:53:50 GMT

nova teoria do universo sustenta que o cosmo iniciou de fora para dentro numa contração e se desenvolve por processos de fluxos estruturantes.
ver no google -TEORIA DO UNIVERSO FLUXONÁRIO ESTRUTURANTE. Autor ancelmo luiz graceli

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Captain Ignorant — Fri, 11 Jul 2008 23:01:53 GMT

What's the worst that could happen? We all die? It's just a tiny little experiment with no big downsides. All of our science has benefitted the Earth so far. The trees would not even grow if it was not for our science and the air would not be so pure and breatheable if not for human science. Science is not a selfish human endeavor to conquer our insecurities and fears of the unknown...So once again, what's the worst that can happen?

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Seth LV, NV — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 20:37:10 GMT

Our science community's arrogance and egos are only surpassed by their disregard for humanity and the planet that sustains their dumb asses!

It's like giving a monkey a gun, then watching him eventually shoot himself with it. Only now, the monkeys are the scientists, and the bullets point everywhere...

[...]

Informed humans know we have been subjected to state sponsored radiation, biochemical, and mind-altering, etc. experiments over many decades now. Average citizens used as guinea pigs. Don't suppose that was the work of scientists do you?

Go ahead though. Keep on defending the scientists who have, and contine to use you as lab rats. You think with all the money the government, (your money) has granted them, they could at least find some cures for all the screwed up diseases we suffer from.

Let's not fool ourselves folks. Most scientists only worry about things like GRANT MONEY, and bolstering their egos by getting their name attached to some new discovery... How that discovery might affect you or me is of no concern to them.

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Tom, Toledo, OH USA — Mon, 21 Jul 2008 12:46:49 GMT

There's a great German word that describes Messrs. Sancho and Wagner: Fachidioten - "Learned Idiots."

As I understand it, Wagner is both a physicist and a lawyer; a deadly combination if ever there was one.

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How long — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:39:16 GMT

This is interesting! Let's say it happens and there is a small black hole forming. Does anyone know how long time it would take before it swallowed CERN, and then Europe and the world? Would it happen in seconds? hours? days? years? This is certainly a cool doomsday scenario, someone at Hollywood should make a film about it hehe :D

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Vlad — Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:14:16 GMT

They predicted a 5% chance that the world will be destroyed when the Manhattan project was deployed. (because of the partice fragmentation that it caused which in theory could expand forever).

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Joe Oregon — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 13:55:00 GMT

Sooo if a stranglet happens it should expand at about the speed of light from what I have been reading... Good stuff I must say. So if a stranglet happens you will see a wall of stuff then poof. Sure a black hole would suck but also from what I have read, a Micro black hole will suck up the energy it needs in maybe 1 second max and then I can see it exploding x.x but if not just jump in! No worries by me if something that bad where to happen we will find out if god is real! Soo I see it as all +'s Plus if the LHC succeeds we could unlock anti gravity!

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Charles Kapplinger Jr — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 05:33:16 GMT

To repeat --

Please remember that astrophysicists and the physicists at CERN are often wrong.

And please note that the Big Bang theory is quite wrong (and obviously so).

CNN.com and AP report --
“Scientists plan to hunt for signs of the invisible "dark matter" and "dark energy" that make up more than 96 percent of the universe, and hope to glimpse the elusive Higgs boson, a so-far undiscovered particle thought to give matter its mass.”

The concepts of “dark matter” and “dark energy” are spurious. These concepts are based upon the incorrect Big Bang theory.

So what is the purpose of the LHC??

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ognywogny — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 02:30:51 GMT

I'm not addressing the science. My point is, 'who does the U.S. courts think they are to tell the French what to do in their country when we execute foreign nationals in ours despite demands from the World Court to not do so'! American Arrogance is infinite!

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square-root-of-69-is-ate-something — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 04:31:35 GMT

Quoting a previous comment:

"Lets leave the physics to the physicists, not a couple of nut jobs with no credentials in high energy physics."

Excuse me, but.... There are f**k-ups in all walks of life.
There are no exceptions - regardless of credentials.

Add to this the fact that the technology used to build the LHC is much older than its ground breaking ceremony -circa 1983. Based on the magnitude and scope of the project; objectives; deciding whose theories are most convincing to work with; collaboration of multinational scientists, leaders, & finances; establishing a management structure; petty politics, such as which country gets to host the endeavor; expenditures; and real estate acquisition; among other things; predates construction by at least a decade or more. Theories and technologies of the '60s and '70s are ancient, and almost laughable, by today's standards.

I can't help but to speculate that the LHC, in its present form, is piecemeal & kludge adapted to fit ever growing theoretical trends and advancements of humankind and scientific method and material used to achieve its objective. In other words, it is the bastard child of Frankinsane.

There was untold forethought and science that went into building and flying the Space Shuttle; developed by devoted top-notch engineers and scientists with proof of credentials hanging on their walls... AND despite all their redundant meticulous planning, there have been two shuttles so far that have exploded resulting in loss of life. Oops! Didn't plan on that happening.

All scenarios cannot possibly be thought through fully if given unknown or inconsistent data. A software glitch or hardware failure can certainly spell doom. An assembly worker falling asleep on the job or neglecting their work can easily bring about disaster. Faulty components and workmanship are often blamed for malfunctions. Birds, animals, and car accidents can easily take out vital communications, shut down an electrical power grid, or rupture a storage tank or pipeline transporting a gas or liquid essential for fueling and/or cooling the collider. Freak weather conditions, geological tremors, cosmic activity, or other phenomenon cannot be predicted, nor avoided. Nepotism superseding qualifications, or impostors with fake documents and a good line of BS, or intellectuals with no common sense, can undoubtedly worsen matters if hired. The list is endless.

Now inject into the equation: ego; physical, mental and emotional disorders; alcoholism and/or drug usage (prescript or not); chronic pain; marital and family problems; temper; gambling issues; financial difficulties; personality conflicts; death of a loved one; stress; bullheadedness; politics & religious beliefs; or other adverse circumstances that can all cause calamity that will disrupt workflow and compromise precision.

The sad truth is that there is no stopping the LHC from going online. There is too much of an investment for prospectors to ever back down. They will get their answers if it kills them... and us. Bastards! for not asking if it was alright by me. Who are these people who dangerously skate on the thin ice of our fragile existence? Do you really expect them to share with us their new found knowledge? I would place my bet on them using it against us as a weapon of mass destruction and/or a means of control through fear. Many of us are just now learning about the LHC just months or days from it being energized. Why are they keeping a low profile? Do we need not know?

Keep in mind that this is the same class of people who have bio-engineered our food, making us overweight, and then lay a guilt trip on us by blaming us that we are obese. These are the people who can, will, and do, no matter what.

If any of the doomsayers are correct about a black hole forming that will swallow the earth (at a minimum) or the entire universe thus ending it all, then I say; if they have the knowledge and means to pull off something of that enormity, then; they are more than likely holding back on suppressed technologies that could benefit mankind, but will not - for it can make a buck, hence empowering them. For all we know, they may have already made 'Contact' and have built a machine as in the movie. How is the lucky person, who gets to throw the switch, get chosen? By choosing the most experienced, picking the smartest, or just by luck of the draw with a lottery?

Are there too many chefs in the kitchen all cooking from the same pot, or is there a social structure with a head? Who exactly, on this planet, is in charge? - and why? If social order is just complex patterned chaos, then we might want to worry a bit about being spaghetti-fied into tomorrow only moments after the flash of the Big Bang. You get the picture...

Oh, did I mention that I am a high school dropout with soapbox credentials?

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pitt bull — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 10:42:40 GMT

I have nothing against science in fact science can and did improve our life very much.

But what's the point of colliding protons of 7tev against each other? I mean what advantage do we get from these tests and are they really safe?

Just look at the amount of energy released from a split atom. Now tey are planning to collide millions if not billions of protons which have each 7tev.
Is this really safe? I don't think so all these microblack holes could disrupt the time space continuum or even open new dimensions for a few seconds which could release unknown life forms...
I know this sounds far fetched but colliding protons on this scale has never been done before so no one really knows what will happen exactly. They might open the gates of hell as well for a few seconds like in the movie event horizon ...

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Leroy Weber, Waco Texas — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 15:12:14 GMT

I have been a physicist for 30+ years. If colliding particles at near light speed was harmful, the universe would have destroyed itself eons ago. My hero Albert Einstein went to his grave wondering if time, matter and space were related by the speed of time. Is the universe bound together by the "Fabric of Time"? So, If we could just make something go faster than time and observe the outcome, we would learn a little bit more about the universe. Well, colliding particles will have a speed of impact of nearly twice the speed of light. If the particles "disappear" where did they go? Another plane of time? Another universe? Is the speed of light actually the speed of time? So many questions...
If I had the funding, I would have built the collider years ago.

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Dean — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 17:59:29 GMT

Stop trying to compare the LHC Collider to the steam engine or an atomic bomb. This is completely different. The scientists working on the project DO NOT dismiss the fact that the collider may produce mini-black holes, but they THINK they will evaporate. It's all theoretical physics NO ONE KNOWS what's going to happen. It could create a black hole that would slowly destroy the Earth or produce some other event that would possibly undo our own universe. These are risks not worth taking and should be stopped.

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Nicola — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 21:11:52 GMT

Science is good
Science is great
Let us thank them for our food
Amen

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pitt bull — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 11:20:51 GMT

Of course the atom bomb didn't burn our atmosphere only the plutonium inside the bomb did split.
But in this case we are talking about a black hole and frankly it doesn't matter to me how big or small it is. Black holes can swallow galaxies and that's a fact. It happens in outer space now i know what the counter argument is when a star collapse there is sufficient mass to create a black hole at least a big one. But nevertheless even a microscopic one will wreack havoc even if it doesn't grow big it can alter the core gravity of every planet in the solar system! And while it spins rapidely it induces a motion. In other words our planet will spin faster and fasterthis will however not happen instantly but over many decades if not hunddreds of years to come but it's effect will be noticable as space time will get disrupted in accordance to eraths magnetic variability.
So to resume it all this test will first look normal to physicists as the black hole can not be perceived since it swallow everything it fill fall very fast into earth's core which is a neutron star by the way see inner earth's sun as this black hole feeds itself with elektrons it will grow but very slowly at first however it's effect on the magnetic field will be noticable very quickly as magnetic disturbances and magnetic accelerations with time over decades it will be big enough to make our earth spin faster ....
There will be many desasters and disruptions that will follow.

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Simon Stevens — Sun, 10 Aug 2008 00:10:33 GMT

Scientists have 'on more than one occasion' been proven wrong before.

Whilst I don't deny that this is a huge opportunity for the human race to discover knew horizons, I still have to question whether it's money well spent? What with all the poverty..

Saying that though, if the doomsayers are, infact, correct, it will put an end to world poverty, suffering and misery!!

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Thea, Denmark — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 15:07:21 GMT

Well, I think this topic is really interesting, but I don't know that much about it. Today is actually the first day I hear about it.
It kinda freaks me out, 'cause it IS pretty scary if a black hole suddenly appears right underneath me feet. And Denmark isn't that far away from Switzerland/France.

The day they'll turn it on, is 10 September, right?

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Pedro Pinto, Guimarães, Portugal — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 23:06:36 GMT

Im not a scientist, but i think that, who want's to do this experiment, should prove that it's safe, not the oposite. Reading the introduction of STUDY OF POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS EVENTS DURING HEAVY-ION COLLISIONS AT THE LHC: REPORT OF THE LHC SAFETY STUDY GROUP, by J.-P. Blaizot et all, "Many new and exciting phenomena are expected to occur as a result of these very high energy collisions” " It is hoped that some of them will be unpredicted (...)" Did they asked my opinion for this. I live on this planet, if something is unpredicted, and could destroy it, i think every one haves to be listen.

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John Boscoe — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:38:14 GMT

Unlocking the secrets of the universe is something beyond me. People are dying everyday because there's not enough money to feed people in this world and we're trying to master subatomic physics.

Tell you what, if the Earth blows up because we tinkered with a ticking time bomb then good. One less idiot race in the universe who should have known better than to tinker with things we never should have meddled with in the first place.

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Pete Sampras, Seattle, WA — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 19:20:19 GMT

Turn it on! I wanna ride the black hole with my snowboard!

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Sense — Fri, 22 Aug 2008 20:46:31 GMT

Just do it.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

The Messenger — Sat, 23 Aug 2008 02:04:51 GMT

This is there way to try to prove God dosnt exist well they are going to find out that he does and they are not going to like it.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

steve Camp Arkansas — Sun, 24 Aug 2008 02:26:10 GMT

gee a mini black hole? a small particle that sucks up energy or mass hog wash! mini black holes become stable due to the size of their event horizons. we commonly call them atoms. with hydrogen being one of the smallest stable mini black holes. for a mini black hole to suck up everything would require accelleration faster than light and that just can't happen! Atoms photons and all the other particles are the mini black holes everyone has been looking for! right in front of us all the time!

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Hugo Wesseling — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:47:33 GMT

First thing people should realize is that when scientists say there is a very small chance, that could mean the same chance that the earth explodes spontaneously on any random day. Second thing is about the cosmic ray argument, particles have been measured with an energy of 10^20 eV, that is 10000000 times stronger than the maximum generated in the LHC (wikipedia: Ultra-high-energy cosmic ray). But I guess this is me shouting in the air, as doomsayers do not seem to read or understand any of the arguments of scientists.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Jon Doyle, London Great Britain — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 12:56:51 GMT

can't see what a US court can do stop CERN the US has no jurisdiction in Europe

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Slow Pacer — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 23:47:10 GMT

Who can give us an accurate answer. We can not even predict weather with 100% accuracy. H-Bombs gave larger blasts than initially expected. There should be a way to start this project with a slower pace, with pre experiments in order to reduce this probability and know more. Than in 100 years we should try it in a another galaxy. I read that people use arguments like people thought that train at 50 mph would kill 1 person not the whole earth. Do not stop science but control it and do it slowly because you might miss something important. There are many more theories to solve and mysteries to unravel. Let's postpone this until we will know what happens and how. They say that it happens in our atmosphere so research it there where there's no harm (it's already happening). They can be wrong only once.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Richard Bentham, Liverpool UK — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 21:16:01 GMT

This madness is no joke. The Hadron collider experiment must be stopped. People need to march on the facility. The scientists' hubris points a gun at the head of everybody on the planet. Is that legal? They have no right to threaten us all with oblivion and mass destruction. They are terrorists of the highest magnitude.
They have no right to extinguish all the incredible life forms and beauty of this world. Their science has gone far enough. Useless data, useless technology. People need to live simply and sustainably not ruin their posterity and ours withtheir evil curiosity.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Steve, Luton, England — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 08:41:45 GMT

I thought the idea was to discover the unknown, No one can know what will happen till it happens, we can have dam good theories though. I for one want to turn it up to full power, it scares me deep down, but my dream to one day own a flying car and travel at the speed of light keeps me optimistic. Bring on the hover bikes!

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Paul Johnson, London, UK — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 15:14:48 GMT

I don't think this experiment should ever have gone ahead. Our scientists are nowhere near to curing the common cold and yet they meddle with nature on this scale.

We need to stop and seriously think about this for a while. Percentages being thrown about like 'one-in-a-billion' of anything going wrong are totally useless in their application. There are no such things as percentages in life, the only percentage is 'to-do' or 'not to do' so therefore its a 2-1 chance that something may go wrong with this experiment. The second there is even a possible chance of failure in anything we do in life it doesnt need a percentage applied to it, its always, quite simply, 2-1.
Now when its something as unimportant as say cooking eggs, and you might over cook them, then theres no harm to anyone, but when its something that could potentially annihilate the entire world then its no laughing matter and needs to be considered by everyone, not just the scientists and money men.
Who asked for this? why wasnt i asked on something that potentially could wipe me out? with a 2-1..not a billion-to-one chance of doing so, remember, that billionth chance might just happen to be the very first time the machine is fired up. So percentages are worthless. Flying might be the safest way to travel, but its not if you happen to be the one on a plane thats crashing, so therefore the chance comes down to actually getting on the plane. This becomes a 2-1 chance, get on? stay off? its the same with this, switch it on? or dont switch it on?

Secondly, the reason why this experiment should not go ahead is answered in the very first line of why the scientists want to do it in the first place and I quote "is the foundation of modern physics right or wrong..?"

EXCUSE ME?
So let me get this straight, you build a machine, capable with a 2-1 percentage of creating a black hole or an anomoly that could destroy the earth and its main question? To see if we are right or wrong? So what you are telling me then, is that the very machine you hope to answer these questions, has actually been built by people that dont know if their knowledge of what they are building is right?
seriously...are you having a laugh?

Thats like me saying 'i work making guns and ive got this theory that if i built a new gun that might be able to tell me how guns work was made and used, that i might be able to tell you if i was right or wrong...the downside? oh..ive got to fire it at your head to make sure.'

Does this debate need anymore proof why this machine should never be switched on and if it is, shouldnt we be asked first?
These people are meddling with the fundamentals of time and space and whilst it might sound all exciting, i doubt very much we'll be thinking that if it totally screwed up, thanks to a bunch of people whos main question was 'are we right or wrong'.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Matthew Clark England — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 22:53:20 GMT

replying to "Perhaps the Big bang was caused by a civilization earily similar to ours, in the area of 13 billion years ago that built it's own LHC. And the big bang that created their universe was made by a civilization in a nother universe 13 some odd billion years prior to that, who also built an LHC, and their big bang..." Maybe we are inside another race's own LHC... Who knows?

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Sptim Murtezani — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 19:02:02 GMT

When you hear that sound in DOOMSDAY, nothing will be important, nothing will work, only gods will be that works.
Today we have people that dies for food and you bulid the stupiest thing I ever hear.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Jim Small Town New Mexico — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 20:24:53 GMT

I read that after study's were done ect that the particles smashing together has taken place since the start of the planet or of time. The smash has taken place in our atmosphere. So if that is the case which it is then why spend billions of dollars to make something that happens naturally. I think they are on dangerous ground and playing with the space around our galaxy is not safe. So when all the brains find out that they have opened a hole right next to our planet who will fix it. what if it opens up and moves the planet to another part of the universe like Stargate SG1. I know whacked theory but what if it would if it did not destroyed us we would be with out a sun and a moon ect. Would we die from freezing in just a few days or what. The Sep 10th date is very close to close. So again why not just study the same thing that is happing all around us. Who are they kidding they think they will be able to create a worm hole or something and maybe travel with it. Why the heck would you spend all that money just to study something you know already exists every day naturally. Why in Switzerland maybe because it is the best place to secure it from the world who might just revolt at the outcome of the project.I can just hear people saying that passenger ship just blinked out and was gone or a part of Europe just gone will they clain it was a reactor gone bad to cover it up. I could think of allot of BS here lets hope they don't screw up.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Richard Harrison, Milton keynes, England — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 20:55:56 GMT

I think this is an extremely bad idea! for all u guys know you could becoming a step closer to making mankind no more! please listen to me, i am only 14 years of age, this has been in most of the papers and the news, everyone i know is freaking out. so seriously think twice and maby a few more hundred time before you launch this!!!

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Emma — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 11:02:43 GMT

Very simply - All science and particularly in this instance is based on opinion and theory. The scientists in CERN have said themselves they are looking forward to seeing what happens as they don't know what to expect, they are looking for what is currently unknown. Due to the magnitude of any adverse consequences which, it seems by consensus remain unknown and unpredictable this experiment should not go ahead. It is a vain and arrogant pursuit with no utilitarian or benevolent aim. That the US government has ANY involvement with this experiment is in and of itself concerning. This is not a political issue it is an issue for humankind to digest and consider, let alone be controlled by the Bush administration

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Dean Maddison, Uk — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 15:43:50 GMT

well i wana see this amazing piece of science in action, this could be a completely different step for mankind its self. I say pull that switch and hold on to your seats. Its going to be a jounery of learning and truth.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

confused and im i making sence at all? — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 15:52:13 GMT

in a weird reason i think its a religion type of problem ...if physicists discovered how earth was created and truth would be revealed that there is no such thing as 'god' many christians and catholic people would be devastated of this result.They will gave up there hopes,faiths and beliefs about god.Many people would be heartbroken at this result and can cause troubles.So attorneys are trying to avoid this problem by trying to stop the LHC to do this experament...im i making any sence at all? I dont really know,let see if the experament goes wrong and cause problems that could harm the human raise or the earth or any types of error that could happend in an experament,thats a huge problem! But then what if this smarty pant discovered something new like a cure or save the planet earth from poverty or global warming,wouldnt that be fantastic??...we wouldnt know if we dont try or...

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Никола Поповски, Битола, Македонија — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 16:12:16 GMT

If Einstein was right and 'E' does really equal 'mcc' we have a start point. Now, try to imagine the complete mass of the universe and place it i a single point. Given the preceding equation, try to imagine the energy this 'point' holds. We are all familiar with the BB scenario... Now that (theoretical) process generated matter as well as energy and stabilized into what is now known as space-time continuum. So, unlike many Ego-boosted scientists, who believe that they are capable of matching this process, thus posing threat to the Earth and the surrounding planets, I believe that even if we are capable of somehow duplicating the BB in the tiniest manner, we are unable to destroy what was once created by its enormous brother. We simple cannot generate enough energy. Thus, regardless of many scientists imagination, nature has its own way to stay the way it is and theoretically (or should I say practically), we can do just about nothing to change that. As for the touch-and-convert 'super' particles I would not even bother to comment.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

David Hamilton, Glasgow, Scotland — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 18:15:23 GMT

Look this solves problems, if it works we can there say for definate there is NO GOD! We fear things we dont understand, but the chances of this going wrong is 1/50,000,000 the chances of you dying from getting hit by a bus is 1/10,000. Don't you think is worth the risk, it means that in years to come we may never have to go to the doctor again because genes will be fully understood. if something goes wrong you will not know anything about it, we will be swallowed up in 0.087X10-86 seconds. thats less than 1 hundredth tenth of a second.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Dr Kim, Hollywood — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 05:32:19 GMT

I think the way to handle the case is this:
If the LHC destroys the earth, then CERN has to pay the legal fees and court costs.
If the LHC doesn't destroy the earth, then the idiot plaintiffs have to pay the legal fees and court costs.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Joe Engineer — Sun, 07 Sep 2008 22:32:59 GMT

emm, excuse me but... there is a moral question here that I think is being overlooked. And it goes something like this. Do even the smartest people in the world have the right to risk extinguishing all life on earth with a flick of a switch? I'll answer that question with another question. Can anyone guaranteee with 100% assurance that nothing will happen? The plain and simple answer is no.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Micro Black Hole — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 13:03:03 GMT

If the purpose of this contraption is to explore new, heretofore unproven areas of theory and science, then the CERN's reassurances of safety seem weak. Too bad no one will be able to complain. There needs to be a new international means of regulating these levels of experimentation which have potential life-ending ramifications.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Ben Snowden, Virginia Beach, VA — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 15:01:10 GMT

I am dismayed by the fact that the magistrate did not drop this whole thing. CERN is in Europe and a U.S. court has no jurisdiction there. I remember hearing stories from my grandfather about Dr. Fermi taking bets as to weather the atom bomb would ignite the atmosphere and destroy the world. I guess we can only be greatful that there were no folks like Mr. Wagner weren't around in 1945 or the atomic age as we know it would have never come to pass.

Doomsday fears spark lawsuit

Vincent Clarke, Quebec, Canada — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 15:43:19 GMT

Anything that has the word 'EXPERIMENT' makes me feel a bit queezy... I can't for the life of me beleive that we have become so Arrogant as to even think that an 'Experiment' of such magnitude could not possibly go wrong? Have these Scinetists lost all sense of 'Human Values'? Have they become so caught up in their work as to actually beleive they are Invivncible? Let me remind you that there is a very Fine Line seperating Genius and Mental Breakdown !!!