Is alcohol the energy answer?

Jamie, Marlyand, USA — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 01:12:46 GMT

this is long over-due. why am i still charged full price for 15% ethanol fuel at the pump? why isn't E85 type fuel more available? why are flex-fuel cars still largely a niche market? the future is now. let's move in the right direction.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Wayne Guymon, Chadds Ford, Pa — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 01:12:47 GMT

This is not a new crisis. We have had a lot of very good reasons to develop energy independence for years, but the profits from oil have been used to corrupt the leadership of this country. Energy independence is much more a political challenge than a technical challenge. Methanol might be one answer, but the key issue is electing leaders who are more beholden to the good of the country than to the interests of oil. Without those leaders we will never mandate fuel-flexible cars or take the steps needed to free ourselves of our reliance on oil. Future historians may well marvel that we could have been so blind for so long to the forces that are undermining our political and economic clout and destroying our environment.

Eventually, the marketplace will solve this issue, but by then, without real leadership, we may well have lost our pre-eminent place in the sun.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

steve smyth — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 01:43:30 GMT

RE the solution...forget the ethanol version...if we want real power here, do not purchase ethanol...corn $ in the hands of OilMantality has already grossly overinflated the value of Iowa corn producing land, and will lead to further genetic engineering of corn crops...and eventual, accidental cross pollinations, which lead who knows where...it ain't the oil, it's the oil man...unless one of these emerging technologies makes it to market sans Petro Chem $, it'll just become more of the same...really fast...
new oil, same as the old oil, eh?

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Greg H. Morehead, Kentucky — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 01:57:44 GMT

The good thing about biofuels is the carbon is recycled. The plants take it back from the environment after it has been spewed from our exhaust. I would love to see this become a reality through genetically engineered yeast or bacteria that could use any type of plant materials. Being in economically depressed Eastern Kentucky, our farmers could grow tobacco (our best growing traditional crop)for a constructive use instead of destructive. Our economy has suffered tremendously from the lack of market for this traditional (and in my opinion destructive) crop. I also see lots of sawmill waste that must be disposed of or it spontaneously combusts. This idea of a biofuel economy could help our area greatly as well as our country. Lets get elected and do it!

Is alcohol the energy answer?

meghan, san jose, california — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 02:36:21 GMT

this is not a good idea...

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Bill Wildprett, Gig Harbor, Wash — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 03:08:39 GMT

The issue with our leaders besides being beholden to Big Oil and the OPEC Cartel, is the devil's deal they've made in the name of national security. It goes like this; 'we'll buy lots of your expensive oil if you let us keep bases over there because A) We're afraid of the Russians, B) we're afraid of the Chinese, C) we're afraid of the Iranians', etc.,.

This 'deal' is very similar to the one years ago with Osama & Co., to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan - 'here dudes, these are Stinger missles see, pretty wicked cool huh?', who morphed into Taliban and al Qaeda.

Yes! to energy independence from these atavistic bloodthirsty people. We will ALL be better off for it and safer. Let's do it now!

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Ed W. Belfast, ME — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 03:12:24 GMT

Produce methanol? Absolutely. Run it as striaight fuel? Absolutely not! As mentioned in the article, corrosion and double fuel consumption are both major drawbacks. The corrosion affects not just the fuel lines, but any metals the fuel touches, pump parts, injectors, throttle bodies, valves and the combustion chamber itself.

The better alternative would be to use the methanol in the production of biodiesel.

In a nutshell, you need 3 basic ingredients to make bio-D. Vegetable oil, lye, (sodium or potassium based) and either methanol or ethanol. ALL of these can be derived from plant sources.

Currently, depending on where you source your materials, biodeisel can be made in your kitchen generally for less than a dollar a gallon. Start producing it on a large industrial scale and the cost is bound to drop even more.

Biodiesel is biodegradeable, and its production waste products are glycerine, soap and the alcohol used as the catalyst, which can be recovered for use in the next batch.

Think about it, methanol and lye are both available from wood, as lye can be leached from ashes. Oil is available from a large number of plants. Farmers and loggers provide the raw materials. That equals employment. The materials are processed into fuel. More employment. Fuel can be sold at about half of mineral diesel's current price. Farmers and loggers, truckers (and anyone else with a diesel) get to pay half as much for our fuel.

I'm not sure if there is currently a way to process biodiesel into jet fuel, but I'll bet one can be found, and how many gallons of that does this nation burn a year?

Consider also, home heating fuel. #2 fuel oil and diesel are very similar, certainly that switch could be made.

And then there is the option of using bio-D to fuel electric generators, the ones currently burning oil and gas....

Wow, how can we afford NOT to do this???

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Delmar Fairchild, Barron, WI — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 04:05:53 GMT

Cold fusion would be the ultimate fuel and would knock everything else including oil out of the market.
If we start with Hydrogen fueled cars using Palladium as the hydrogen fuel tank it will then set the stage for the use of Palladium in cold fusion as we learn more about this metal's fantastic abilities.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Fred, La Crosse, WI — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 04:16:43 GMT

The article lacks a quantitative analysis of energy inputs versus energy outputs and cost inputs versus economic benefits. Put in simpler terms, with alcohol-based fuels, do you get out more than you put in? Many serious analysts have answered that question with a resounding no. It takes vast quantities of energy to fertilize soil, transport the fertilizer, build the trucks and facilities, transport the corn or whatever to the alcohol plant, produce the alcohol, and transport the alcohol to the customer. I've read that it takes 3/4 gallon of gas to make 1 gallon of corn ethanol...without Congress's current fifty cent a gallon ethanol taxpayer-financed subsidy, an ethanol plant would operate in the red. One recent proposal for corn ethanol plant in Minneapolis packed it in due to a reassessment of the economics.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Len, socal — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 04:20:29 GMT

Why is everone so afraid of (H) hydrogen. Easy to make, store, clean burning?

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Dan, Toronto, Ontario — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 05:11:56 GMT

I am in the food business and Ethanol production has had dramatic negative effects on food prices in some very strange ways. It is not only food prices that have been effected, Ethanol from corn is bad science costing about the same in energy content to produce as the end result - how does this continue? It continues by way of government subsidies. Methanol production is very different, here any plant mass can work, wood, coal, leaves, grass clippings and it can do so with energy efficiency putting out way more in terms of output compared to input plus it can hit the numbers we need. Corn prices doubled taking us to double the minimal output of ethanol we are at currently - a 900 gram package of wheat based pasta went from $.90 to $1.47 at retail over the span of nine months. Why wheat I mean we are talkng of corn? That is because less acerage is devoted to wheat and soy because more corn needed growing so the price of all grains rose the same percentage basis. Chickens are raised on corn, milk cattle are in part fed on it too. Turkeys? You bet. Food price inflation is just starting to show up and it will make a bit of a dent in all of our food budgets. So tell me why both Republicans and Democrats are touting Ethanol production?

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Karl Erikson, Fredericksburg, Virgina — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 05:25:30 GMT

Are we talking about another 'version' of the internal combustion (IC) engine?!?! Why not use the methanol and separate its hydrogen atoms for use in a fuel cell (FC) engine? Rather than spewing out more exhaust from an IC engine, we can capture the by-product of the methanol and swap it out when we 'gas' up at tomorrow's methanol gas stations. I am sure there will be innovative entrepreneurs in the future that will figure out a way to utilize the by-product elsewhere WITHOUT releasing it into the atmosphere. Even if FC technology is not as efficient as today's IC engines the more we use FC technology the more innovation will occur to make it more efficient. Over the past eighty or so years we have reached great strides in innovation with the IC engine that we are now talking about flex fuels. But the end resultant remains: We are still 'burning' the fuels to create energy.

We need to jump off the IC engine-bandwagon and move onto the next revolution in conveyance technology. IC engines (in my opinion) are so last century. I use internal combustion engines now, only because I can't get my hands on a fuel cell vehicle yet.

I quote the great Anthony Cumia: "This is the twenty-first century-where's my flying car?"

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Des Emery, St. Thomas, Ontario, Canada — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 05:35:57 GMT

OPEC controls the supply of most of the oil in the world, but it is the big oil companies - Exxon, Shell, etc. - which control the prices we pay at the pumps. Until they are guaranteed that their profits will continue there is little hope for alternative energy sources being developed.

Along with the auto makers and the internal combustion engine, they have a vested interest in promoting oil-based fuels, whether made out of petroleum, oil sands, oil shales, corn alcohol, wood alcohol, and those substitutes. What we need instead is a distinctly separate power source, such as electricity derived not from burning fossil fuels, but from nuclear reaction producing heat to turn water into steam, to turn turbines, to pump electricity into a grid of wires making the power available through the existing system of service stations. Nanobatteries under development now could be 'filled' up with new electricity in less time than it takes to fill up a tank with liquid gasoline which has to be carted with us as we go. Even the horse-and-buggy days were more efficient in that aspect as we did not have to have a haywagon on our trips with which to 'feed' the horse.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Suzanne Weiss — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 07:37:15 GMT

I feel that this type of fuel or others like it are the answer. I think we now understand as a country that this is really beyond debate. We do need to switch to a new and better fuel source for the future. If this is to be done, probably sooner rather than later would be a good idea. I think about how much time it would take for these vehicles to work their way into everyday life where even the used cars for sale in the local paper are fuel flexible. It might take 20 years. In the meantime, we could take advantage of the low gasoline prices to help carry us into this new fuel era.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Mark L. Vines — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:48:42 GMT

A better choice might be DMF. Quoting from a June 2007 Newswise release:

Reporting in the June 21 issue of the journal Nature, University of Wisconsin-Madison chemical and biological engineering Professor James Dumesic and his research team describe a two-stage process for turning biomass-derived sugar into 2,5-dimethylfuran (DMF), a liquid transportation fuel with 40 percent greater energy density than ethanol.... By chemically engineering sugar through a series of steps involving acid and copper catalysts, salt and butanol as a solvent, UW-Madison researchers created a path to just such a fuel.

"Currently, ethanol is the only renewable liquid fuel produced on a large scale," says Dumesic. "But ethanol suffers from several limitations. It has relatively low energy density, evaporates readily, and can become contaminated by absorption of water from the atmosphere. It also requires an energy-intensive distillation process to separate the fuel from water."

Not only does dimethylfuran have higher energy content, it also addresses other ethanol shortcomings. DMF is not soluble in water and therefore cannot become contaminated by absorbing water from the atmosphere. DMF is stable in storage and, in the evaporation stage of its production, consumes one-third of the energy required to evaporate a solution of ethanol produced by fermentation for biofuel applications.

Dumesic and graduate students Yuriy Román-Leshkov, Christopher J. Barrett and Zhen Y. Liu developed their new catalytic process for creating DMF by expanding upon earlier work. As reported in the June 30, 2006, issue of the journal Science, Dumesic's team improved the process for making an important chemical intermediate, hydroxymethylfurfural (HMF), from sugar.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

John, SC — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:20:08 GMT

Let's face it, until the federal goverment steps in and says energy at a resonable cost is a national security issue, vital to the economy and mandates a date for energy independence nothing will get done. Nothing has been done by either political party since OPEC formed in 1974 and the problem has only gotten worse. Big oil (Exon, Shell etc) are all global companys and if they don't sell to the USA they will sell to China or India or whoever will pay the price. Why would they invest in USA refinerys when they can do nothing, claim a shortage of supply and drive the price up. The USA has untaped oil deposits in Alaska, the Gulf, vast oil shale deposits in the west and probably oil deposits off the East Coast. These oil reserves in conjunction with ethanol, methanol, biodiesel, nuclear power, geothermal and wind; there is no reason on earth why we are paying OPEC for their overpriced oil. No one energy source is the answer utilizing all options is. I would rather pay an american farmer or a power plant construction worker who is not trying to kill me. Just think of the money that could be invested in this country, the jobs created if we stopped the flow of billions of dollars to OPEC. For 30 years I have heard nothing but talk about alternate energy, when will the elected do nothings in Washington wake up and stop talking and do something to solve the problem before this country is bankrupt.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

John Doe Seattle, Wash. — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:53:29 GMT

There are a whole lot of feasable ideas out there. There are people who can make them happen. We could live in a much better world. Big money will never let the politicians make them happen. AND THAT IS THAT!

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Steve Johnston, Virginia — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:03:50 GMT

America has possessed and had the ability to implement alternative fuel technologies for decades but without a firm commitment from the Federal Government which is in cahoots with big oil and auto manufactures things will never change. The American people are also to blame because they continually vote for and accept the statuesque. When Americans finally wake up and except the fact they are manipulated and governed by Corporate America, (Not our elected Government), and decide to do something about it, we are doomed. Plain and Simple.

Do yourself a favor America, actually READ the Declaration of Independence; it’s not just words on a piece of paper or some acient ideal

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Mike Roberts — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:25:40 GMT

A lot of the comments and "solutions" I read here and elsewhere sound good and might be workable in an ideal world--but we don't live in one. You cannot snap your fingers and change the way we have been doing things for a century--that is you cannot instantly go away from IC engines, for example. It concerns me that we are still blaming "big oil" and government for all of our ills--as Pogo once said, we have met the enemy and it is us. It is our own demands for cheap energy and fast, efficient personal private transportation that have driven all of this. Oil, government and car companies, etc. respond to our demands--the majority demands [another illustration of why pure democracies are not the best systems]. I am all for alternative fuels and on an emotional level support any attack on the terrorists and their funding. Show me an alternative fuel that solves more problems than it creates and that is truely cheaper than oil and I will wholeheartedly support it. There are several reasons to wean ourselves off oil, including the fact that we will eventually run out of it, environmental reasons, national strategic considerations and economics. The last one, or at least personal economics is the reason most folks give, yet it is the weakest. It also disturbs me when a new idera is put forward that folks immediatel start listing the "difficulties" as though they should kill the idea--a better approach would be to start thinking about how to solve the difficulties. But, you see, all this change takes TIME and people these days have little patience--they want instant solutions. The instant solution is to politically or militarily solidify sources of OIL.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Michael Lloyd, Columbus, Ohio — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:52:23 GMT

Alan, we're never going to become energy independent until we get rid of the internal combustion engine. It simply is not an efficient user of fuel. If we are going to go to an alcohol fuel standard, we must switch over to fuel cell technology. But in the meantime, for pity's sake, increase the CAFE standards! Talking about energy independence while not dramatically improving auto efficiency is like planning to run two foreign wars without raising the revenues to pay for them. It simply doesn't add up.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Musad .Yola. Adamawa. — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 14:43:44 GMT

It's easier said. Powerful governments the world over, developing & developed, are not going to wean easily from the great (oil money) that has fueled not just whole economies but influential individuals that have great control over policies.Humans usually need a Hiroshima of sorts to remind them of their humanistic responsibilities. From where i stand i doubt my government is putting any effort into the R & D needed to make alternative fuels viable.Theres always talk of crashing the system if these changes are taken too suddenly, But time isn't on break either.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

James Stepp, Orlando, Florida — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:03:02 GMT

I agree with alcohol/methanol but there is a reason they use corn to produce it. It's because the economics don't make it competitive with gasoline. As an example, if you compare corn against hemp, corn produces roughly 300 gallons of fuel per acre while hemp produces over 1300 using 1890's technologies. This is a 400% increase in efficiency and very much makes ethanol competitive with petrol. This is one reason why every first world country (from Canada, England, Germany, China, India etc) has legalized hemp production, especially since it is now and always has been legal to grow under international laws, treaties and trade agreements. Many people believe this is the real reason why "marijuana" is illegal today.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Andy W. — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:30:43 GMT

Our civilization powers itself with technologies developed during the 19th century. Given the accelerated pace of technological innovation, it seems that these fossil-fuel (or bio-fuel) burning power systems may be due for replacement. Using mehanol,ethanol, bio-diesel or hydrogen for power only skirts the edges of the basic issue of an ageing technology. Advances in solar cells and electrical storage batteries, as well as the development of fusion power, may make fuel issues obsolete.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

R. Cavaretti — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:42:00 GMT

In the meantime, while everyone argues and wastes precious time about what fuel we should use and what direction our energy policy should take, I have a great idea for the here and now:

CONSERVE, DON'T CONSUME.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Anahi Vazquez, San Benito, Texas — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:52:15 GMT

I really hope this new approach gets approved fast, and that these new fuel(s) become more available to the public. It would be awesome/wonderful to add some competition to the fuel industry! This will definitely resolve the gas price fluctuations.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Zig — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:59:58 GMT

If we discontinue using Mideast oil what will happen to these people? Do we really think that world turmoil will stop? What happens to all the Mideastern gas station owners? Eliminating oil purchases for problems in the Mideast will only create more problems. Kindest Regards

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Debra Beeson 1023 locust St N.E. #23 t. Pete., Fl. 33701 — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:02:06 GMT

I think the idea is genius, methanol, ethanol, to help deter the oil cartel and to come out of the bondage of oil. But wasn't there a guy in Clearwater, Fl. who converted his car by using water? At the same token though I don't know why the expense of a car should go up hundreds of dollars for flex-o-tanks. It's ridiculous, the prices of cars, as it is. I'll probably never own a new car, so how can I help with the auto/environmental issue? There perhaps can be conservation automotive stores, to turn the old car into something less of an environmental hazard. Why does it have to cost so much? There are some people plus students who have come up with fabulous ideas. Is it about the money still, as our world falls into crisis with global warming, droughts, desertification, deforestation, dead spots in the oceans, melting glaciers. Manufacturers need to find simpler, less costly means for us to live without more destruction to the earth.At the same token too many people want to be rich and not just take life simply. So greed is one of the major pollutants of the earth as well.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Dave Johnson Toledo, Ohio — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:07:35 GMT

1) meghan - wow thanks very thought provoking, what was I thinking?!
2) Hydrogen/fuel cell - another setup of producer/distributer/seller and infrastructure to build, maintain, and support.
3) Electric vehicles - the way to go long term as we already have the infrastructure etc. in place and in everyday usage - too bad about the storage problem (battery)
All of these ideas will need R&D and will cost money. The entrenched powers (automakers/oil men etc) will not change faster than they have to. They want to keep making their record profits (well, not the automakers currently). Fortunately there are people out there (E. Musk et al) who are putting their huge profits to use developing new technologies/machines to leap frog the already established institutions. I am hopeful that these people will become the new Fords, Rockefellers, etc. and save our butts.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Joe, omaha — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:17:34 GMT

I say we first make the push towards bio-diesel; as commercial traffic accounts for a far larger fuel consumption and air pollution percentage in our country than private cars. That will at least start to disrupt the flow of money to foreign (unstable) countries, allowing us to invest a bit more in ourselves and attain complete energy independance.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

John B, Seattle, WA — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:22:14 GMT

I note in all of the preceding that there is no comment given to a time frame to wean ourselves from petroleum based fuels. I believe this process will take 25-50 years to happen. Currently, there is still a lot of money to be made off of oil, and there is no infrastructure in place to jump to hydrogen (or whatever). The transition to a fuel that achieves all of our national security, economic, and environmental objectives will require several compromise steps that start with existing infrastructure and less optimal types of fuels (like ethanol/methanol/bioD). The speed of our progress will ultimately be dictated by market forces; not political mandate. Early adoption of any of these fuel strategies would be a good first step.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

T. Crowl,Dayton, Ohio — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:27:17 GMT

This, like so many other "solutions" is a half step. It is a promising one for the short term, but a sustainable energy future should rely on plug in and solar cell technology for cars and wind and solar for homes and businesses. We must break our oil crutch before it breaks all of us. Ethanol and other alcohol fuels and additives take oil and energy to produce and actually raise costs in other areas such as food and paper production. It is interesting to see our president now has a wind generator at his ranch, too bad most of us cannot afford one. We need national and rational leadership on this issue, not half steps.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Steve, Hartford, CT — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:32:30 GMT

Ah, the hydrogen holdouts. Still too uninformed to know that hydrogen is incredibly energy-negative. So I'll explain:

In order to get hydrogen, it must be snapped off of other molecules (water, natural gas, gasoline, etc). To do this, one has to invest energy. And the hydrogen that is produced does not contain all of the energy that was invested (in other words, there is a net energy loss just producing hydrogen).

Once the hydrogen is produced, it may or may not need to be transported (depending on where it is produced, since a station can simply process natural gas on-site). If it needs to be transported, further energy must be invested.

Finally, once the hydrogen actually gets where it needs to be, it must be pressurized or supercooled, either of which also consumes energy. And then once it's in the vehicle, the vehicle must then capture the energy in the hydrogen (but remember, that energy originally came from the investment needed to snap it off of another molecule). Fuel cells have a theoretical (NOT real-life) maximum energy efficiency of 50%. In other words, only 50% of the hydrogen's energy actually makes it down to the wheels and onto the pavement. I don't know what the comparable efficiency figure is for a liquid-hydrogen internal combustion engine (like BMW's Hydrogen 7), but gas ICEs operate at 20 to 30 % efficiency.

The significant energy losses at each stage make hydrogen a complete waste of time. Any attempt to "green" the hydrogen (using solar/"green" power to generate it) is just a way to insert hydrogen into a process that already works better without it (it's ALWAYS more efficient to just use electric cars).

PHEVs (plug-in hybrid electric vehicles) are what will make all the difference. As for what liquid fuel they should use, corrosive liquid fuels sound like a bad idea to me. I like biodiesel better, since diesels get WAY better gas mileage, especially at constant loads (and a series hybrid, where the ICE is used solely to charge the batteries, can operate at constant load all the time). The biggest issue I have with biodiesel is the same one I have with diesel: particulate emissions, but of course the automakers are working on that.

I'd also like to see regular gas (or other liquid-only) cars in the future built with hydraulic regenerative braking (brakes that compress air, which can then be used to drive the wheels). This would significantly improve gas mileage, I think. That plus the impressive efficiency (238hp/296lbft and 40mpg from a 1.8L engine in an S-class!) that Mercedes recently achieved with its DiesOtto HCCI engine concept in the F700, even regular old gas cars can reduce their thirst.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Keith Aymar, Clifton, NJ — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:58:56 GMT

People argue that the cost of producing these fuels make them economically impractical. But you need to factor in other benefits. Doing this will greatly reduce the trade deficit. All that extra cash would stay in our economy. Why not use some of this cash to subsidize the oil industries to invest in the future? My son, 16, recently asked, "why can't we find a use for all the leaves that are picked up and thrown into the garbage?" LOL. At least the next generation is thinking in the right direction!

Is alcohol the energy answer?

One Who Knows, Northern California — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:09:28 GMT

The great secret of biofuel research is another member of the alcohol family besides ethanol (2 carbon atoms) and methanol (one carbon atom) -- and it's butanol (four carbon atoms). Butanol can be placed in existing auto gas tanks and burned just like gasoline, and needs no special equipment from the refinery all the way to your car's internal combustion engine, and can be produced from the same feedstocks (including cellulose) as ethanol -- and BP and DuPont are working on it, as is the UC Berkeley biofuels team as I type this. Same BTU content as gasoline, same ability to separate from water as gasoline, and can be produced at the current distilleries currently pumping out billions of gallons of ethanol each year in the US. All other biofuel solutions require a complete overhaul or replacement of the fleet of over 100 million cars on the road -- butanol DOES NOT. Look it up on Google or Wikipedia.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Micha Lockes, Wasilla, Alaska — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:12:09 GMT

I think that this is an awesome idea in a way it's kind of a win win we're not sending money to terrorists, which means more for us and what we need here in the US but also a way to utilize all the extras we don't use and just throw away heck why don't we just use them to run our cars...I love it....the only real downfall is that we would have to gas up twice as much so would we really be saving all that much? I guess we will just have to wait and see what they can come up with next

Is alcohol the energy answer?

OneVoice, Frederick MD — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:30:28 GMT

I think we're going to need a variety of strategies to make the free world independent of the mullah controlled - not so free one. Ways to use free sunshine where solar makes sense, bio desiel from fryer greese, Methanol and Ethanol where available biomass makes it economical, Geo-thermal where conditions warrant. The biggest risk, I see, is that big business tends to over use its resources for maximum profits. Its great to turn corn into ethanol but not so much that we can't afford to eat it anymore.

I also think that all of us, as individuals, have a responsibility to conserve energy where and when we can. It doesn't matter if it compact lightbulbs, extra insulation in our attics or combining trips in the family car, every little bit helps us individuals as well as all of us.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

David Nelson Owen,Wi — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:31:08 GMT

Actually there are a number of potential ways to handle the energy problem. The easiest one and the most cost effective is simply to drive less. During WWII gas was rationed and the government promoted driving less (Is this trip really necessary). We are so used to getting into our cars and driving, often over the same path on the same day. Driving 10 miles fewer a week would have the same impact as finding another Saudi Arabia.

Ethanol does have an energy plus of about 15-20% it's main problem is that it absorbs water and cannont be shipped the way gasoline can thus requiring trucking, but if it is viewed as a piece of solving the energy problem someone will develop a way to pipe it from where it is produced to where it is consumed.

Nuclear power is really the way to go, but people don't understand it. Many think a nuclear power plant can explode like an atomic bomb, they don't realize the process of producing electricity and a nuclear explosion are opposites. Then there is the issue of nuclear waste, which is political not scientific. France creates between 70-80% of its electricity from nuclear power and they handle the waste with no fanfare or objection.

The least productive discussion centers on opinions that the oil companies have bought the government and stand in the way of developing other energy sources. If you look at it logically, the oil companies will benefit from any energy source. Suppose you could run a car on ocean water, are you going to go to Wal-Mart and walk out with fifteen gallons and fill your car up? The oil companies have the pipe lines and distribution services (gas stations) any energy source will require.

Blaming the energy and automobile companies for the problem is counter productive. Market forces will ultimately decide the issue. The profit incentive is the motive responsible for virtually all advances in all fields.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

mark hearon, san manuel, az — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:34:26 GMT

what about harvesting CO2 from the atmosphere and ocean, converting it to carbon and oxygen and then making hydrocarbon fuels from the harvested carbon. i guess you could also make enthanol and methanol fuels in this way.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Rich, Fort Lauderdale, FL — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:45:35 GMT

This is all fascinating, but has any body thought about reducing the use of oil in home heating and power plants that use fuel oil to make power. It seems much easier to start with replacing those first. Solar power to heat or cool homes and possibly the use of hydrogen in power plants that are now using oil. If we can shift the oil use out of the home and power plants, then this would greatly reduce our dependence on oil. Afterall, how many people are actually going to go out and buy a new car. it will take decades to phase out the present gasoline engines and make everything flex fuel or hybrid or whatever. My wife and I make over $100,000 combined and we don't have kids and I can't imagine going out and buying another car right now...cost of living is just too high. The government needs to get oil out of the homes and power plants to start with while the auto companies develop flex fuel, hybrid and electric vehicles that are dependable safe and efficient.

Also, I must say that using our corn to produce fuel is not the smartest thing to do. Points have already been made as to the cost and difficulties in the production of ethanol. The land can only produce so much and we do need to eat.

I understand that there is always cause and effect in everything, so I wonder what the lesser evil will be...if we use all the oil, there won't be any terrorist because they will all starve to death...this is one option. Considering wind power, this may change air currents due to drag and whole environments can change. Even solar may not be the ultimate answer. Imagine billions of square miles of solar panels absorbing the sun's rays instead of the rays being reflected back into space...this may ultimately end up changing weather patterns as well. Even with hydrogen, there is going to be massive quantities of water vapor produced and this will likely contribute to more storms and flooding in some areas, not to mention the environmental changes that may be caused in some areas. NYC might even have constant snow or ice buildup in the winter when the temperature is commonly below freezing.

I am glad that it seems we are on a mission to improve the quality of our lives through the use of cleaner and more efficient technologies, but I am afraid there may not be any perfect source of energy.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Concerned Citizen — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:02:06 GMT

In the not so distant past, when one nation invaded another and took control, the victorious nation would claim some if not all of the defeated nations wealth (in whatever form that might be) to assist in financing the overthrow and further empowering the victorious nation and Iraq has tremendous wealth in form of crude oil. Why in the hell don't we offset some of the enormous cost of this war by taking some of Iraq's oil? For that matter, why don't we annex Iraq and then it's OUR oil! We are already paying to liberate them, feed them, clothe them, rebuild their infrastructure, etc. It's time to get something in return other than maimed and dead soldiers. It's time for Iraq to pay for there new found freedom with black gold!

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Karl Erikson, Fredericksburg, Virginia — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:17:32 GMT

Steve in Hartford, Ct: You wrote of theoretical efficiencies for hydrogen being 50% and the IC engine at 20-30% efficient. When the first IC engine was brought into the mainstream I don't believe even the first massed-produced IC engine efficiency was even measured except for horsepower. For now we can use the IC engine's current efficiency metric as a measurement to gauge against the fuel cell and you will see that certain parallels between the history of the IC engine and FC engine's technology is pretty close. Don't totally discount FC technology; yes there is a supply/demand economic model that can be drawn between the two technologies that will reveal a prediction that when the cost of running an IC engine soars above the line of cost of running a FC engine will be the determining factor of when consumers switch to FC cars. This sorta happened with the advent of the hybrid electric car. People were screaming for them these past two years. I know because I was on a wait list for almost three months. When the consumer is driving the economics, the big businesses will follow or will die on the vine.

If properly nurtured, FC cars will continue beyond what the IC engined cars have done only because the fuel is more abundant. When spoken about storing of hydrogen fuels at gas stations, there is no need to keep these tanks refridgerated; I see these 18-wheeler rigs that transport hydrogen already in compressed gas tanks, so you already have an infrastructure nearly in place. Burying tanks underground is nothing new; I have a propane tank 40 feet from my house heating my water and home. If I had a propane converter I could separate the hydrogen atoms from the propane and create electricity through a home fuel cell module that could power all of my electric needs- to include charging my hybrid. Just a thought...

PS: There is already 'waste' just transporting gasoline and diesal fuels in rigs back and forth from the refineries to the gas stations...This cost is trickles down to the consumer and I can bet your bottom dollar that the consumers will absorb the cost of transporting any of these flex fuels, alternate fuels, etc. to these gas stations.

It's the familiarity of supply and demand that dictates change- because we are used to/familiar with going to a gas station to fill up on 92-98 octane is the only reason why we will continue to do the same- only it will be for ethanol, methanol, hydrogen, etc., instead of an octane rating...

Is alcohol the energy answer?

bob, boulder, co — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:46:52 GMT

it's kinda depressing reading CosmicLog today -- specially the comments. Everyone seems to be so anti-Arab. It's as if the only thing wrong with the world is Arabs...and that they are all terrorists.

I mean...you know, we have killed tens of thousands iraqis (if not hundreds) just in 4 years. In the eighties we helped both Iraq and Iran fight each other which killed a million people. We until today give Isreal 3 billion dollars a year while the Palestinians who lived on the same land and now live in squalid refugee camps/shanty towns get nothing.

It's stupid to think just changing our fuel sources will remove the threat from people don't like us. We need to understand why they don't like us -- and it's not because of "jealousy"

Is alcohol the energy answer?

John the non-baptist — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:51:31 GMT

Some of the best blogging I've read on a site. Some great ideas, some good considerations, and warnings.
I don't see Americans tightening their belt to use less energy as a means to fix anything. Car Pooling, driving less, etc. are noble, but seem unpractical for what our society has come accustomed to.

I'd like nothing else than to see the Middle East have to re-invent itself for a gross product because no one wants any of the oil they have left. I do believe that terrorism would subside if we stay out of their world, they'd be inclined to stay out of ours, and we can still co-exist until a Universal crisis brings us and binds us all together.

The first step toward reducing the energy crisis is to elect an Administration open to heavily pursuing alternatives. This means no more Bushies. There was not going to be any momentum put toward weaning off oil the last 8 years. Not when the guy appointed to the Presidency and his dad are heavily financially involved in Penzoil. Talk about shoot ourselves in the foot. We might as well have elected Osama bin Laden to do away with Terrorism. We gave the fox the keys to the hen house.

As others have so intelligently put it, we have to overcome powerful interest groups and lobbyists who are too selfesh and greedy for the common good. We also have to get control of journalism again. There are far and away too many individuals out there spewing out lies, intentionally to deceive, who are taken for gospel because they publish under a World recognized name. Joe Klein at the Times is a classic example of what I'm talking about. Fox made-up News Network is another. This includes the talk show and radio show fanatics that are getting air time as well.
In other words, make it a crime to generate partisanship. Its OK to disagree. Its not and never should have been OK to misrepresent, lie, name call, deceive, or try to annilate your political opponents out of existence. Republicans and Democrats are really not that far apart on issues, yet they are made out to be by over sensationlizing news people whos' motives are to reach a financial plane higher than the profession justifies and power from means not brought about through an election by the people.

We need organizations to be honorable again. Trustworthy again. The White House, the News, Religion, Law Enforcement, etc.
We have to prosecute white collar crimes the same as any other crime and don't grant pardons and do overs to those who have been caught, that only propel others to do the same.

This means you have to give a bit more effort as an individual. Challenge the motive of anyone putting anyone else down. Get involved with politics and support those who are willing to make change and not just talk about it. Stop blogging and get active.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

a p garcia — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:56:13 GMT

MeOH as us in the Chemical field call it. It is a derivative of water with a methyl replacing one of water's hydrogen! This means it mixes well with water like in a gas tank! If you should have a MeOH fire, you can barely see the flames. It works pretty well in racing because the race engine can run higher Compression Ratio than your average car. The energy needed to make it means your net energy output is small. That does not take into account that if a Wino should drink the gas tank, they will experience a life threatening situtation.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Don Baker — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:57:16 GMT

I think Hydrogen has the most promising future and I only see alcohol as a near term stop-gap measure. Hydrogen is so simple, clean and eternaly available as well as versatile. The fact alone that it can be used two ways is persuasive, but it is a down the road answer. Alcohol fills the bill for the near term, because the tech is readily available.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Bill Hensley, Houston, TX — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:02:47 GMT

Why do people still think there is some conspiracy between oil companies to jack up prices? I will tell you, that "conspiracy" has a name: it's call a Free Market. You think oil company profits are too high? Build a refinery, sign a crude oil delivery contract with the Saudis, and compete with them! Go ahead! Nobody is stopping you.

The real problem is that any alternative energy sources need to be 1) cheaper than oil, and 2) available in similar quantities. There are two ways this is going to happen. First, we can do nothing and oil prices will continue to rise as demand rises and supplies diminish. Second, we can fund R&D to improve other technologies. In fact, we are already doing the latter. It is only a question of whether we are investing at the right levels and in the right technologies.

Personally, I think that when you factor in the quantity of energy needed, the only serious candidates right now to replace our oil imports are coal and nuclear. The technology we lack for these two is how to exploit them in an environmentally acceptable way that is still cheaper than oil. That's where I think our R&D investments should be stepped up.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Daniel, Louisville, KY — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:07:34 GMT

How bout we drill for oil off of our own shores, eh? What a novel idea!

Screw the Caribou....DRILL ALASKA

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Delmar Fairchild, Barron, WI — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:25:04 GMT

Oil companies do not control the price of oil. They sell their oil according to what they can get for it on the market. This is a free market society, and we have the Options and Futures markets in crude oil, gasolene, natural gas, gold, sugar, corn, etc. Speculators are driving up the price of oil and other commodities due to being scared and hoping for a profit. If or when people feel like we will not have any disasters to our supplies, the prices will come down. Prices rose a few days ago when the Canadian-US crude oil pipe line to Chicago burst, starting a fire ball which killed two workers. Any tragic news will send the prices soaring.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

The Quietman — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:29:31 GMT

Drag racing has been using Nitromethanol for the last 50 years because it produces more power than gasoline, but has always been more expensive. I think that there is probably a happy medium somewhere between methanol and nitromethanol that can be used.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Delmar Fairchild, Barron, WI — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:48:22 GMT

James Stepp: I read where "Industrial Hemp" is somewhat different than Marijuana in that it has a stronger fiber and less drug content. It grows a lot faster than would corn and on a variety of soils. It would be a lot better than corn for fuel as you say, but would still take up some of the space we need for growing food stock for us. The quest for riches will be what drives us to a newer form of power. Be it Oil Companies or the individual entrepreneur.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Irvin A. Haynes Charleston,SC — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:50:35 GMT

We have the technology in this country to produce our own gasoline and end our dependence on all foreign countries,we did it in world war two. we supplied the world with well made american goods, rebuilt and had a two ocean going navy and we could do it today,we dont have to rely on leaders in DC, they work for us but most of them think its the other way around. all we as a united people have to do is write, call, talk to our congressmen in each state and say this is what needs to be done what are you going to do about it? We want to know and we want it done not in 6 years but right now today.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

John O, Chicago, IL — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:58:12 GMT

What about the turbine engine? Hasn't technology progressed in this area ? How about coastal seaweed farms and algae farms so we can save our land for crops and help our fish population at the same time?

Is alcohol the energy answer?

h. c. petley — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:03:41 GMT

The number of people contributing with ideas to this blog and others like it is a clear sign that the problem can and will be solved because it HAS to be solved if we, as a civilization, are to move forward into the 21st century. We currently harvest only a tiny percentage of available energy from non-fossil sources. As has been said, the IC engine is over 100 years old, long since out of date. So is the coal-fired steam boiler! The major suppliers of oil/coal based fuels have no reason to seek changes...they only pretend to be interested in other fuel sources. An entirely new system must evolve and that takes large, billion dollar chunks if investment capital, which no one is currently willing to risk. Solar arrays are in the kindergarten stage of development covering a few acres here and there. Look at all the vacant space in Nevada, Arizona, N Mexico, S California, Texas etc receiving abundant supplies of sunshine almost every day....how many acres of solar arrray do you see there? How many rooftops do you see with solar arrays on them? FEW and far between. RE the hydrogen cycle requiring too much energy, thus too costly to free-up the H molecule...solar power can do that on a day to day basis almost for free. H is abundant and available but the entire industrial society will have change in order to make use of this most fundamental fuel. H as fuel souce, if developed, will change the economic system of the global economy and there are too many powerful status-quo politicians and backward thinking industrialists who do not want this change to come about.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Wayne, Alamogordo, NM — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:20:32 GMT

It doesn't really matter what we as individuals would like to see happen. The truth of the matter is, the oil companies will be the ones who decide what the next generation fuel will be. That's because they hold all the strings, and they have the money to do it. As the oil companies of the world slowly morph into energy brokers, they will quietly buy up any worthwhile technology that comes along and cash in on it when they decide it's time to cash in on it. Who do you think controls the ethanol production? The time is long gone since the oil companies didn't control this country. Let's hope some major breakthrough in a viable oil alternative happens outside this country so that it just might have a chance of not getting squelched before it could actually become a usable alternative. I know, GLOOM & DOOM, but from my perspective, that's just the way it is.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

wayne — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:54:31 GMT

Seems to me I heard somewhere that it's estimated the cost of the war in Iraq will top 1 trillion dollars...... Can anyone imagine where we might be already if that money had been used to subsidize the development of infrastructure for alternative fuels instead ?

Just a thought................

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:58:55 GMT

Zubrin has been in and out of the media for years and all to do with his "Mars direct" plans and research projects. The guy knows what he is talking about but the right people don't listen. NASA wants to take the "long way around" to Mars and Washington wants the long way around the energy issue.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Mike, Richmond, VA — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:59:41 GMT

I just wonder what we could have done with the billions of dollars that we are spnding on the war. What if that money had been invested - to sub the auto makers, to go after all of the technologies that are out there and have been available for years. Seems odd that we spend that kind of money to protect oil fields - (preferred contracts as it is now being hailed) in Irag. Wow, what could we have come up with for alternatives to the oil dependancy we all have. All of the alternatives could have been tested and deployed in the 5 years that we have spent in Irag. What a waste.

New alternatives? Why are we just now talking about it? We should have allocated 100 Billion dollars into the solution. So was it the answer to go into Irag, stop Russia and China in thier tracks trying to have thier own contracts with Hussien, only to create our own with the new admin of the country?

Let keep it going the way it is and vote for Hillary!

Is alcohol the energy answer?

John Delphia, Troy, Michigan — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 21:17:43 GMT

If I were writing a science-fiction novel, I'd have everything run on deep-drill geothermal (with liquid CO2 being used as the heat transfer fluid down the borehole to avoid corrosion problems) which then is used to get magnesium from the ocean to use in transportation as Magnesium-Air fuelcells (which use salt as the solvent). You get much simpler non-toxic power from these sources, and the resources are close enough to everywhere that there is no lock on production.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Dan, Pittsburgh, PA — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 21:24:42 GMT

You all have good ideas, thing is, I don't want to "fill up" anymore on anything. I don't want to have to go to a fillng station. I want to plug it in at night. Stop wasting all this money on future technologies that may never come to pass and spend it on a technology we have had for hundreds of years, batteries. Zero emmissions. You plug in at night when energy consumption is at its lowest, not producing a strain on the power grid. Put some of the money into researching gridless energy systems and eventually you will be your own power company.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Fred, La Crosse, WI — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:04:31 GMT

Reply to 'Len,' regarding the comment: "Why is everyone so afraid of (H) hydrogen. Easy to make, store, clean burning?" Easy to answer: it takes lots of energy to make hydrogen via the hydrolysis of water. So, hydrogen ends up being a great energy transport idea, but what is really needed is an energy source. Now, if some engineering whiz comes up with a better way to make hydrogen, say, from solar or through some sort of catalyst (nanotubes?) then hydrogen may indeed become viable. Right now, the inputs are greater than the outputs for hydrogen; that's why you're not seeing it in use now. Many ideas that sound good on the surface, like biofuels, don't add up once you crunch the numbers.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Sabrina Jimenez, Orange, NJ — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:06:42 GMT

I believe this new form of fuel will hel us all. In simple it will lower gas rates and prices. The change can help everyone and all of the money, work, and deaths over the war for gas in Iraq will probably end a lot sooner. This should be put out in the market as soon as possible.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Darren Pope, Little Rock, AR — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:14:50 GMT

Delmar Fairchild: Corn grown for ethanol is what is taking up the space we need for food stock. If what James Stepp said is correct, we could use 4.33 times less space growing hemp, still produce the same amount of energy, and use the extra space for actual food production. It's a win-win for the average consumer - trading corn ethanol production for hemp ethanol production. More bang for your buck and cheaper food, lowering the cost of living.

I totally agree that the quest for riches is what will drive us to a newer form of power... I don't think the average person understands (or doesn't yet care) how much money they could save by going green. It makes a HUGE difference. That's why I don't understand why people are indifferent toward/against the green movement. If you're not in it for saving the environment, then get into it to save money. I saved about 5 grand last year by switching to alternate fuel sources. That means that in less than 4 years I will start getting back the initial money that I put in...

If anyone has the time, I suggest sitting down and actually figuring out what you would save versus what you spend. A lot of the time it makes sense monetarily.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Frank Weigert Wilmington, DE — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:43:43 GMT

The racing car fuel is nitromethane, CH3NO2.

You can read about it at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitromethane

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Martin, Australia — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 00:14:28 GMT

Methanol less energy dense but in ICE can run on higher compressions 20% more power. All those aromatic hydrocarbon carcinogens gone to.

George Olah (Nobel Prize Winner Chemistry) has written an excellent book worth a look.

Beyond Oil and Gas: The Methanol Economy

-precursor to almost every chemical at the base of modern manufacturing.
-inherently clean burning (carries oxygen with it)
-can utilise coal and gas to make the liquid fuel. US has large coal reserves. ICCG is an extremely intelligent way to use our God given coal reserves.
-present infrastructure can be used to dispense it with some modifications.
-concentrated CO2 in flue gases can be converted into methanol by adding H2.
-H2 prodn from water electrolysis solves variability problem of wind and solar - can with CO2 make liquid energy when demand is low but wind is blowing.
-environmentally much safer than petroleum oil. Massive ocean spill of methanol would dissipate in about a day. Water soluble and easily cleaned up.
-toxicity slightly higher than gasoline - but we're adults.
-can utilise stranded natural gas deposits
-can take CO2 directly out of the atmosphere and turn it into liquid energy methanol if you like.
-China has made up its mind - it will be methanol as their transportation fuel of the future (see China's coal to methanol developments)
-can use it in Direct Methanol Fuel Cells in cars. Already going to be the power source for consumer electronics. See DMFC and laptop news.

-The US must save the free world again.

-Thank you Mr Huckabee for showing some leadership.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Dan, Colorado Springs, CO — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 00:55:03 GMT

Even though I'm conservative and voted for Bush twice, he really dropped the ball on energy independance. I agree with Huckabee; we need to do this in 10 years or less and really focus national attention on it. I agree with all the ideas presented in the article. I would also like to see extra incentives for first-to-production innovators who accomplish key advances -- perhaps something like the Ansari X-Prize? For example, a prize for the first company to produce algal oil suitable for biodiesel at < $2/gal without subsidies. If we work together as a nation, we can do this, and the US and the world will be a better place for our work.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Earnan Maguire, Denver, Colorado — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 01:43:40 GMT

The conspiracy-theory twaddle being spewed by most of the posters here illustrates the real problem with our fuel policy: it is being dictated by politics---the politics of scientific illiterates who are ignorant of basic chemistry, basic physics and basic economics.

Face the facts: liquid-fueled internal combustion engines are the most efficient means of powering vehicles. Batteries require that a vehicle carry around tremendous amounts of additional weight, and merely move the pollution from the tailpipe to an electric power plant's smokestack---and that's not even considering the pollution involved with manufacturing batteries with limited lifespans. Hydrogen requires similar weight penalties for safe storage systems, similar pollution relocation to produce the electricity, similar pollution to produce the storage matrix for carrying the hydrogen fuel in a vehicle...

Biodiesel, ethanol, methanol, butanol all have genuine potential. But until the "Big Oil" conspiracy theory nuts start doing some research and educating themselves rather than blaming a "boogeyman" for the existing state of affairs, nothing is going to change.

But there's no reason at all to be hopeful that things will get better: such folks are the major reason we haven't built a new nuclear power plant in decades even though nuclear is the cleanest and safest source of electric power on earth.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

dave BVI — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 01:51:16 GMT

This has been an interesting read, but nobody can do anything about any of the things they are writing about. it's informative, and a good discussion, but results in no change right at this moment.
It's going to take a concerted effort by all, now, with what is available today for the average person, Most have no cost at all, turn down the water heater 10 degrees, turn the thermostat down 5 degrees, walk when it's less than 4 blocks, start a compost heap in your back yard, shut the tap off when your brushing your teeth, I mean there are dozens of things you can do today, that would make an impact, a major inpact right now, in the next 24hrs.
we as people, the most wasteful people in the world, have to change our habits, because the big biz that you all criticize just profits from your bad habits, and aren't going to change till you do.
The oil companies are going to pump all the oil, that's what they're in biz for, the car companies are starting to change, actually pretty quickly, because we are starting to line up for the low fuel consumpton cars, the only thing that's going to slow the amount of oil that is going to be imported is the general public, you and I, the ones that consume it all.
So get off your butts and start to make a difference, use that computer and research all the ways you can save energy without spending a dime.
then research all the ways you can save even more energy spending less than a tank of gas for your car.
then tell your friends how you did it and, god forbid, even help them figure it out.
Now you as an individual are making a difference instead of giving lip service and waiting for the world to solve a problem you're the biggest contributor to.
Dave

Is alcohol the energy answer?

gary bebee, eagle, michigan — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 02:46:41 GMT

i drive a flex fuel gmc yukon. in the 20 months or so i have leased this vehicle i have put 12000 or so miles on it( i'm retired). i do not drive very far usually so when i need fuel i just go to one of the two local stations that carry e-85. i don't check the price as i don't care what it costs. what i can say is in that 12000 miles i have purchased seven hundred and some gallons of ethanol, and only one hundred and something gallons of gasoline. e-85 is less efficient than gas it is true. i pay about 40 cents per gallon less and get about 10% less economy near enough an even trade with the amount i use. i hope the scientists can come up with ways to produce cellulosic ethanol as it is about 15 times more economical to make than corn based ethanol. i will keep my fingers crossed for all of us.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Omar, Memphis TN — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 04:38:33 GMT

To the fella whose son asked, "why don't we do something with all these leaves instead of throwing them away," WE CAN REFUEL OUR ECONOMY BY SIMPLY REUSING WHAT CORPORATIONS GIVE US—HOGWASH!!! I'M TALKING METHANE PIPED OUT FROM LANDFILLS AND SEWAGE TREATMENT PLANTS. METHANE FROM WASTE BOGS IN CAROLINA PIG FARMS. CURRENTLY NEW YORK CITY EXPORTS ITS SEWER SLUDGE TO ALABAMA AS FREE FERTILIZER. THEY CAN KEEP IT!!! and harvest methane from it. COMPRESSED WOOD PELLETS FROM SAWMILLS FOR HEATER FUEL (kind of sooty), SCRAPS FROM BLUE JEAN MANUFACTURERS TO MAKE HOUSING INSULATION (being done),

AS FAR AS BIODIESEL, WHY CORN? WHY NOT ACORNS!!! WHAT COULD BE MORE ENERGY INTENSIVE THAN SEEDS FROM MATURE LIVE OAK TREES? ACORNS ARE ALREADY PLENTIFUL AND TASTE VERY BITTER THEREFORE WILL NOT DISRUPT OUR FOOD GRAIN SUPPLY. ITS HOW SQUIRRELS BUILD UP THEIR FAT RESERVES IN WINTER. IT WILL ALSO ENCOURAGE LAND MANAGEMENT OVER RETAIL/RESIDENTIAL DEVELOPMENT AS THIS FUEL BECOMES MAINSTREAM. HEADLINE: FIGHT THE TERRORISTS WITH ACORNS? ANY THOUGHTS?

DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF BUYING LESS CONSUMER GOODS: MEANS FEWER SUSPICIOUS CARGO SHIPMENTS ENTERING THE U.S., LESS DEPENDENCE ON CHINESE IMPORTS. CHINA HAS TIES WITH RUSSIA AND THERFORE IRAN. ROADS WILL BE SAFER AND LESS POLLUTING WITH LESS TRACTOR TRAILERS ON THE HIGHWAYS—NOT TO MENTION FEWER TRAFFIC JAMS AROUND CITIES. LESS TRUCKS MEANS LESS GAS CONSUMPTION. BUYING LESS AND INVESTING JOBS IN WASTE RECAPTURE COULD AND WOULD MAKE THE U.S. A WORLD LEADER AGAIN!

Is alcohol the energy answer?

CM Modesto, CA — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 04:43:42 GMT

Butanol is a more promising alcohol fuel, it has almost as much energy per gallon as gasoline, burns clean, is not corrosive, and can be used in existing gasoline engines without modification. Butanol can be used in older vehicles until we get even better "plug-ins" to replace them. Butanol can be produced by bacterial fermentation of biomass.

Electric powered transport is the most efficient and economical option, it will eventually replace the use of fossil fuels for land transport. Electricity can be produced from a wide variety of clean power sources. LiIon batteries can now give sufficient range, and even better batteries are being developed. Automated roadways could be electrified to provide power "on the go", completely eliminating the "short range long trip" problem.

As for the other options mentioned:
Palladium can absorb 800 times its volume in hydrogen, but is far too expensive to use for H2 storage. Palladium produces heat when it absorbs H2, a fact overlooked by Pons & Fleischman in their "cold fusion" experiment. They were mistaken, no H2 fusion was taking place.

H2 can be made several different ways, but all are expensive. The cheapest source is steam reformed natural gas, which is why the oil companies are touting it - they have the cheapest source of H2, they are the main producers of H2, and they want to sell this expensive new fuel when the oil runs low. It is difficult to store sufficient H2 for vehicles, requiring incredible pressures (10,000 psi) or mind-boggling cold (-423.17 °F), or heavy expensive metal hydride alloys.

Fuel cells are almost twice as efficient as IC engines, but due to expensive Platinum catalysts and special membranes, they are far too expensive for the average driver to afford. Compared to LiIon batteries, PEM fuel cells cost more, have a shorter lifespan, and are less efficient.

Water electrolysis is at best 60% efficient, PEM fuel cells 50%, combined is only 30%. Compare that with 85% efficiency for charger and batteries - a battery electric car would use 1/3 the electricity used by an electrolyzer to fuel a fuel cell car driven the same distance. "On-board electrolysis" cannot power a car, regardless of what some slick talking scam artist says - it uses up energy, it does not produce energy.

Some wonder why I am so critical of certain alternative technologies, and the reason is that we cannot afford to waste time and money on ideas that are too expensive, too inefficient, or cannot work. We need to concentrate on the best new ideas, the ones most likely to succeed.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Darren Pope, LIttle Rock, AR — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:00:10 GMT

CM in Modesto: Thanks for all the information. Great read. I will have to read/think more about the automated roadways idea you've presented. But I disagree that RIGHT NOW we need to concentrate on the best technology. Right now we need to reduce our oil consumption and carbon footprint no matter what the flavor of alternative fuel you choose. And I don't think that one big solution is the solution we need. I think that different regions will be able to utilize the different solutions better. Take corn ethanol for instance: it's a great idea for the regions that grow corn, but taking that same product out to the far reaches of the country is a bad idea. The infrastructure isn't there and it will be incredibly difficult to put a working solution in place. Methanol... if it's true that we could take CO2 directly out of the atmosphere and turn it into liquid energy methanol, then that would be fantastic for areas that are choking on their own greenhouse gases. (I don't know what the biproduct of methanol is, though). But I doubt it would be an excellent idea for those who live where there are only plants and trees around for miles.

I think the best ideas will come out of the marriage of several alternative fuel sources. Such as Biodiesel Hybrids. If you can get 100 mpg out of a Prius by driving it right (not like an american), imagine what you could do with a Biodiesel Hybrid VW Jetta. I'm thinking about 8 times fewer stops for gas, at least, than a regular gas powered car.

Well, I'm definitely not an expert, I'm just taking what I'm reading and putting things together. Thanks everyone for all the great ideas.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Gary, Port Richey, FL — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:47:22 GMT

This has been a very interesting read. As stated by many, one of the important things is that there are discussions taking place. These need to be brought to the attention of the local politicians that YOU elect. This is neither a liberal or conservative issue, nor a Republican or Democrat issue. It is something that effects the great country we live in and the stability of it (economically and other). The change can start locally and will follow up the..ahem (I dislike stating it this way)..chain-of-command. Bottom up, not top down is the only way I see being effective politically.

I don't believe that there is one answer that will immediately solve our energy crisis. What I think we need to do is establish many already viable alternatives and utilize them. Start with the Bio-diesel, electric cars (GM already has available production models), establish solar arrays, implement wind turbines off the coast (yes, Ted Kennedy - in your backyard), and drill our reserves to name a few.

Hydrogen sounds good but, as others more informed than I have already stated, isn't feasible at this stage. We shouldn't give up on exploring it, though. Also remember while electric cars are a good idea, what is used to create the electricity (how about a trunk load of potatoes)? Oh, yeah, then the rising cost of potatoes...boy, the damn ripple effects again.

Corporate greed (otherwise known as good business sense) will always tend to protect their niche in the market place, that's why solar is being talked about so much now. The patent rights that big-oil bought up in the 80's, when these technological breakthroughs were developed, are about to expire.

Our present infrastructure and economy will not support an overnight switch to one new energy source. The answer, in my humble and uneducated opinion, is gradual change. As the populace embraces and becomes comfortable with change, the mindset and habits of the average consumer will gradually change and big-oil, big-whatever will be forced to change their habits or die in place.

5% from solar (or more), 7% from wind (or more),flex-fuels, bio-diesel, electric cars, accessing already known oil deposits ( gulf of Mexico, Anwar and others), building more refineries, building more nuclear power plants will all help to reduce foreign dependencies.

I must admit that reading many of the posts submitted have not only made me smile, but have had me laughing out loud. The transparent attempts to couch political idealism and the overt declarations are responsible. I'd like to respond to a few...

First, we are already at war and the money has already been spent. Leaving now is not the answer and under funding our brave men and women in harms way is criminal, in my estimation. If I had every dollar back that I spent at McDonalds or whatever....

Annexing Iraq? Well I've lightheartedly proposed paving the entire Middle-East and creating an international gas station. Why have over 10,000 devastating weapons to leave them in silos? They're already paid for and are only taking up space. $10 a barrel, anyone?

Anti-Arab sentiment? All I've read is about how they have us (and the rest of the world for that matter) by the short and curlies, and they aren't afraid to tug on them either (which hurts..if you get the drift) or about terrorism. By the way I know that all Arabs or Muslims aren't terrorist, but all terrorist seem to be Arab or Muslim...Hmmmm...

Whatever to answer(s) may be, the discussion needs to continue and opinions need to be stated and brought to the attention of those that we choose to speak for us.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Louis Snyder, Houston, TX 77007 — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 18:04:00 GMT

Alcohol oxidiation produces CO2 and thus does not really benefit man kind. Yes it could free us of imported oil products but global warming would not be helped. In other words alcohol does not really promise solutions. Electric plug in auto's are still the only real solution. And until the batteries are developed to extend their range things are not as good as they might seem.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Charles R Mayer — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 20:11:48 GMT

I was in Ica Peru at Las Dunes in 1983(A distinctly desert area). I met a friend of the owner (an expatriot) who was pleased to show off his experimental planting of JOJOBA, a shrub with edible seeds that is also a source of oil (The dictionary calls it edible seed that produce a valuable liquid wax) This plant purportedly is native to southwest US, not Peru. It would be nice if we can avoid the impact on the price of corn that the the use of corn for oil by using the culture of the jojoba that could mean if it is really abetter source for oil. Does anyone know of it? Maybe its only as good as soy been oil.Its so near Xmas, lets hearit for "Ho-Ho-Ba") C Mayer Lakeland Fla.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Fran Barlow, Sydney Australia — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 04:26:37 GMT

A couple of quick things

1. EROEI (energy return on energy invested) of ethanol could be good if much greater use were made of waste biomass sources rather than agriculture. Secondarily, cellulosic ethanol from crops like miscanthus and switchgrass (panicum) are very envirofriendly crops which can be companion planted with food crops like corn with advantages to yield of both. They require very little fertiliser and can help staunch nutrient release to water tables. Cattle can feed on them too. Sugar, which is currently at a nadir in world prices is another source, and if that's not so in the US it reflects the trade policy of protecting sugar at the moment. In any event, the mere comparison of energy in and out is also misleading. If *stationary* (and therefore less despatchable sources of energy such as coal and uranium) are converted into more despatchable sources like liquid fuels and these latter are in short supply, then we have improved the quality of the energy with advantage.

If the source of the electricity is inexhaustible and intermittent and relatively benign by environmental criteria (eg solar, wind, wave, tidal, geothermal) then the question of energy inputs is moot in energy balance terms. Nuclear (thorium and uranium) still stacks up well too because at the margin, nuclear energy plants use up very little fuel per energy unit produced.

2. Both ethanol and butanol (an alcohol based fuel with more energy content than ethanol that can be used in unmodified gasoline vehicles or in any mix with ethanol) can be extracted from any starch based material. It can be a by-product of biodiesel from biomass such as algae, which in turn is grown in significant part by absorbing CO2 at rates far better than plant matter. Effectively, this would be converting solar energy into fuel via a few steps.

Fran

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Bob Arnold — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:44:32 GMT

25 years ago, I worked alongside Bob Zubrin promoting nuclear fusion research. Since that time Bob's idea of what will fuel be technologically feasible for rocketry and now automobiles has continually diminished. What hasn't diminished is his over-sized self promotion. What's next? Buggy whip manufacturing?

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Des Emery, St. Thomas, ON, Canada — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 07:20:21 GMT

People at long last are beginning to think seriously about the problem of "power," and are seeing more clearly the connections that lead backwards from any perceived "solution." To answer the original question posed by Alan, no, alcohol is not the answer. Working backwards, there is always Carbon Dioxide involved, whether in production or in use as fuel.

Fire itself is the major clue -- nothing that merely replaces oil (fossil fuel) with another combustible is ideal. The argument for production of ethanol, methanol, biodiesel, etc., is predicated upon its use in the internal combustion engine, or fire.

Only electricity, derived from steam (common water makes up more than 70% of this world) which can be made at will by nuclear reaction in small quantities, stays away from oxidizing fire. Electricity, fed into existing grids, and from them into existing networks of service stations, will provide motive power to keep the wheels of progress turning.

If one-tenth of the research money put into figuring out whether we should have greens cars or red cars this year was directed into nanobattery development, the auto makers would soon be able to provide cheap transportation, as Henry Ford figured out a long, long time ago.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 18:31:18 GMT

Gary Bebee...why on earth does a retired person who doesn't drive much need a big honkin GMC yukon anyway? Flex fuel or not. It's that kind of mentality since SUV's were born that got us into this emissions mess anyway.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Tim Tacoma, WA — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 23:15:16 GMT

Having more flex fuel automobiles is the only solution. Expand bio-diesel promotion and promoting diesel powered vehicles. Expand on Methanol options and switch to hydrogen power when the technology is better.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

John Delphia, Troy, Michigan — Mon, 03 Dec 2007 18:58:10 GMT

In my post earlier relating to geothermal I mentioned CO2 as a less corrosive substitute for H2O as a working fluid for heat transfer - this was wrong - CO2 is very corrosive esp. under pressure. I'm thinking maybe using oil itself would be the best method of getting heat out of the earth: To scale up geothermal power quickly just take existing old oil well bore holes and drill them deeper, then pump oil in a circulating loop... The most fuel-efficient transport has to be to transmit the power (like the MIT magnetic field method just discovered - of course Tesla already had the basic idea) to the vehicle to save weight. Transmit along the freeways and use batteries only when driving offline locally.
These ideas in this blog are great and maybe pie-in-the-sky but we're going to transition to *something* as the oil gets too expensive, so it might as well be a well thought out long-haul solution. Evolutionary steps just up the cost of transition.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Tony Rusi, Issaquah, WA — Tue, 18 Dec 2007 22:04:33 GMT

I have learned so much here today, butanol, DMF, methanol, nitromethanol. But what can you do today? You can buy a diesel car. You can make your own biodiesel from used cooking oil. You can buy biodiesel from a few places. You can buy an electric hybrid or plug in. Right now you can't buy a diesel motorcylce. http://www.m1030.com/models.htm You can drive less and carpool. You can ride a bus or light rail in some places. You can walk and you can ride a bike. Nothing is going to change until some of the people on this list take their own advice.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Keith Rasmussen, Friday Harbor, WA — Sun, 23 Dec 2007 02:02:47 GMT

"get America closer to energy independence". What's the major objection to nuclear power? In Amereica it's what to do with the nuclear waste! Riddle me this: why do France, Japan, and others find no need for their own version Of Yucca Mountan as a waste depository? You can blame that peanut farmer for this one!

Is alcohol the energy answer?

M. Simon, Rockford, Illinois — Sun, 23 Dec 2007 04:55:07 GMT

The fuel of the future is Boron 11. Once you have a really cheap energy source you can convert it to anything (with some losses).

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/
2007/03/mr-fusion.html
Bussard Fusion Reactor

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/2006/11/
easy-low-cost-no-radiation-fusion.html
Easy Low Cost No Radiation Fusion

It has been funded:

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/2007/08/
bussard-reactor-funded.html
Bussard Reactor Funded

The above reactor can burn Deuterium which is very abundant and produces lots of neutrons or it can burn a mixture of Hydrogen and Boron 11 which does not.

The implication of it is that we will know in 6 to 9 months if the small reactors of that design are feasible.

If they are we could have fusion plants generating electricity in 10 years or less depending on how much we want to spend to compress the time frame. A much better investment than CO2 sequestration.

BTW Bussard is not the only thing going on in IEC. There are a few government programs at Los Alamos National Laboratory, MIT, the University of Wisconsin and at the University of Illinois at Champaign-Urbana among others.

The Japanese and Australians also have programs.

If you want to get deeper into the technology visit:

http://iecfusiontech.blogspot.com/
IEC Fusion Technology blog

Start with the sidebar which has links to tutorials and other stuff.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

M. Simon, Rockford, Illinois — Sun, 23 Dec 2007 06:08:46 GMT

bob, boulder, co,

Americans didn't kill 10s of thousands of Arabs in Iraq.

Arabs killed 10s of thousands of Arabs in Iraq.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Mark H. Morganton NC — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 23:14:53 GMT

Ok. I'm about to shoot down an argument right here right now. The arguement over e85 returning rotton gas mileage. In motors with gasoline compression, yes. It is lousy. But a GM V8, for example, built to take full advantage of the fuels potential returns the same if not better mileage than the last Camaros 25-28mpg. A 14:1 compression setup should do the trick.
I myself intend on building 'Project Boozer.' a race compression motor with a somewhat less aggressive valvetrain, tuned for street use. It'll run of Grandaddys brew we'll just say, and at $1/gal to make in quantity, I'll be declaring MY independence from these $95-125 fillups at the pump if the politicians won't anytime in my lifetime!

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Theodore Wentworth — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 16:17:58 GMT

My grandfather, Theodore O. Wentworth Sr. had the answer way back in the 70s and 80s. He invented ways to mass produce methanol and ended up testifying to congress about it. He forsaw our crisis of dependency on foreign oil coming many years ago. However, they chose not to listen and now we are suffering for it! My grandfather sat down with BP, Texaco, and others in the 80s and they were ready to sign on the dotted line. But, the environmentalist shut it down at the last minute. My grandfather was on the morning show with Barbra Walters, and she cut down the whole idea on national television. The media is just as guilty as the oil companies for our situation.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

norm — Fri, 01 Aug 2008 22:02:23 GMT

CH3NO2 for the win.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Reynold Valle Maui, HI. — Thu, 29 Jan 2009 02:03:41 GMT

why wait,everybody tired of gasoline price so high.especially in hawaii.methanol will be the right option.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Eugene, Brazil. — Fri, 30 Jan 2009 16:13:21 GMT

It is such a shame see how US is strugling with an old issue. Brazil has had flex fuel cars for years. The vehicles does cost a little more, but you get your money worth on savings on gas. You can mix ethanol with regular gasoline for better torque. You do not have to get rid of old gasoline, just reduce the use. I am sure the american people will be glad to mix the fuel, if they are paying a fraction of what they are paying now.
Regarding the production of sugar cane or corn... there is a simple solution: like everything else in US, import from Mexico, or any other country who does not finance terrorism. It still much cheaper that importing from middle-east, first for geographical distance, and second for the cost itself. And last but not least, regarding the question about corn being food, not fuel... I am sure people in the country states can live on mashed potatos, and fried green tomatoes. People will forget how good corn is when they can afford a nice juicy steak.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Jeremy morrison, caldwell, idaho — Fri, 13 Feb 2009 16:53:33 GMT

I think you should find another way of making fuel because your way of making it would be more expensive and I dont want forests to be gone in the next 20 years plus it wont stop pollution.

Is alcohol the energy answer?

Larry Neumann, Royal Oak, Mi — Fri, 08 May 2009 10:11:17 GMT

anyone besides me think it's absolutely ridiculous to use a 3000lb+ overpriced hunk of steel to move from place to place, even with our fat american diets 300lbs would serve as a top end baseline for the typical work commute.

its long overdue that vehicles need to get LIGHTER in order to realize any meaningful mileage gains...yet this isn't the case, because people erringly think a heavy car is safer. I would tend to believe chances of surviving a head-on crash would favor lighter weight(not necessarily smaller) well designed machines with less inertia.

Energy sources notwithstanding, the whole concept of transport needs to be re-evaluted.....including "realistic" safety/liability regulations that allow more latitude to truly innovate.....

Is alcohol the energy answer?

henry gibson, portland, or — Sat, 09 May 2009 02:31:05 GMT

Methanol was required for some automobile racetracks until it became more politically correct to use ethanol. Only minor changes are needed to use methanol in current production cars. Gasoline is poisonous and methanol is as well. Methanol can be used in very simple stoves. Methanol can be stored for decades without much change and can be converted to gasoline in a simple process when needed. ..HG..