Tales of the 'Rocketeers'

Gundark,San Diego,CA — Tue, 31 Jul 2007 05:12:11 GMT

I'm not sure why the public should be expected to help out Scaled Composites here. You've got a company largely owned by Northrop Grumman and funded by billionaire Richard Branson that is building tourism vehicles for millionaires. Seems like they should be handling this on their own.

It's a bit of a conflict for NSS to be involved in this in that its exec director is not only working for Branson's Virgin Galactic but is scheduled to fly aboard one of Scaled's vehicles. He's got a significant financial and personal interest in this, and I don't think it's right for him to leading the charge for private handouts or lending his non-profit's name to it.

Tales of the 'Rocketeers'

steve smyth lynn mass — Tue, 31 Jul 2007 09:58:47 GMT

Someone needs to read Will Whitehorn's testimony to The House SubCommittee when first proposing Virgin Galactic's purpose, and stating that Virgin's goal was zero Government involvement.
Since that day, VG has done little but attempt to hornswoggle various benefits, con the State of New Mexico into matching funds for their venture, and so on.
This is not about free market/enterprise.
It's competition for funds and permission slips...wherever they may come from.
Nobody goes anywhere without an official OK from numerous governing bodies.
Stop the charade...Space Tourism...it's been a ridiculous phrase since jump street.
Branson got his publicity...marked his turf.
It's time to bow out, and let those who really desire to explore get on about their business.
Nice job, Sir Richard...we needed a shill...and you came through...take a bow, and exit stage left...before you turn everyone off completely.

Tales of the 'Rocketeers'

Jenny, Wash, DC — Tue, 31 Jul 2007 10:04:05 GMT

Gundark represented some of my sentiments. There should be proper and sufficient insurance provided to participants in these inherently dangerous ventures. It's not a matter of "if" but "when" it will be needed. The families should not have to rely on a community passing the hat to meet their needs.

If this is financially unfeasible, then as a matter of public policy, we need to shut down the un-insurable or uninsured ventures. I want to see these programs succeed as much as any ardent proponent, and this is part of the planning and execution of these projects.

I am very sorry for all those killed and injured in this accident. I wish their families well in their time of grief.

Tales of the 'Rocketeers'

Dennis McClain-Furmanski, Dalworthington Gardens, Texas — Tue, 31 Jul 2007 11:13:22 GMT

The public is invited through a specific link because they tend to want to do that. It is our way to honor the fallen in activities which we deem worthy and honorable. Not everyone feels this way, and they are welcome to their opinions. As to wht are "we" "expected" to, "we" are not. Those wishing to may, and many had already been wondering how. This was for them. It is as much for those wishing to express condolences, and to assure a project they hold dear to survive, as it is to offer a safety net for the families of the fallen. If you were "ecpected" to, this would have been tax money, not voluntary contributions. Scaled doesn't need this money. Those with strong feelings about it feel a personal need to send it.

Tales of the 'Rocketeers'

Chicago, IL — Tue, 31 Jul 2007 13:17:51 GMT

This has nothing to do with any expectation or request that the public will "help out Scaled Composites." The families of the deceased, not the company, will receive the donations.

Three people died doing something which, while certainly not qualifying as a not-for-profit venture, will indisputably advance humanity's progress into space. What's wrong with asking for private (and purely voluntary) donations to support the families of people who died taking risks to advance human progress, simply because their loved ones happened to be employed by a corporation instead of a charity?

Tales of the 'Rocketeers'

Wrenn, Bear, DE — Tue, 31 Jul 2007 13:45:39 GMT

Please Gundark, the fund is not to help out Scaled, it's to help the families. While I'm sure there is accident insurance and the like, that will take time to sort out. NG owns 40%, the agreement to buy the remainder still awaits regulatory approval, and they CAN pull out. Branson is only financing one of the current projects. (Like Paul Allen financed the push for the X-Prize win)

“The National Space Society (NSS) is an independent, educational, grassroots nonprofit organization dedicated to the creation of a spacefaring civilization” according to their ‘about’ page. How is posting about this space related industrial accident, and it’s aftermath not relevant? Other Space oriented sites are posting the information, they should simply ignore that?

Anyway, on behalf of the east coast fannish community, our thoughts and prayers go out to S/C people, and their.

(and now I have to go and buy Belfiore's book)

Tales of the 'Rocketeers'

Bill Dauphin, Vernon, CT — Tue, 31 Jul 2007 13:48:03 GMT

Gee, Gundark, your sense of human compassion is truly inspiring! Notwithstanding the (very recent) Northrop Grumman buyout and the Virgin Galactic venture, Scaled is still a relatively small business. I don't pretend to know what sort of benefits (e.g., life insurance and accidental death and dismemberment insurance) they offer, but even if they're great, the sudden death of a family's primary breadwinner is devastating (the funeral, travel, and other incidental expenses around the death itself can amount to many thousands, even before the first missed paycheck); I'm sure the extra support will be gratefully appreciated.

As for a "conflict of interest," I fail to see how the need to solicit charitable gifts to bereaved families could ever be in anyone's interest. The NSS connection is that at least one of the dead was a long-time member and leader of a prominent NSS chapter: It's a FAMILY thing for them, and your suggestion of some ulterior motive is reprehensible.

Finally, did it ever occur to you that people might actively WANT to help, both out of ordinary human charity and because they support the enterprise (and I mean that in the broadest sense; not just Scaled's particular business) in service of which these people died?

Tales of the 'Rocketeers'

John Singer, Jacksonville, Florida — Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:08:08 GMT

Paragraph 2: I think I did mis understand on my first read, but: That's an interesting concept,(my first read) using balloons to overcome the initial enertia of gravity. (I mean, once it's moving at a certain pace, kick in the jets, and decouple the balloons.) Cumbersome, yes, the ballons would be; but has anyone revisited the concept recently? I'm envisioning each balloon equiped with a R/C vent valve and Drone to return it to home base for reuse. How much fuel/ Shipsize(weight) would they save??
It may be an ignorant question. Sorry, if it is. Thanks.

Tales of the 'Rocketeers'

John Reid, Searchlight, NV — Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:10:00 GMT

I must agree with Gundark's comment. There appears to be a big PR game afoot by some of the entrepreneurs, privately held companies, and emerging private space organizations. The tragic loss of three lives appears to be due to an industrial accident, and according to Burt Rutan, not even part of a rocket firing. I am having a hard time relating this to a grand vision for space exploration or space access for the general public.

I am a very strong supporter of our national U.S. Space Program and would absolutely love to see space travel openly available to the general public. Not being a millionaire, I doubt seriously I will ever have the chance to ever fly to space in my lifetime.

May God bless the men with the "rocketeer spirit" that lost their lives and my heartfelt condolences to their families.

Tales of the 'Rocketeers'

Dave, Bakersfield, CA — Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:27:54 GMT

Gundark,
I think you are missing the point, This was a very tragic accident, The public wants to be involed, We want to send money and flowers to the families of the rocketeers that died in Mojave, We want to pray for there families to get through this trying time,There will always be accidents in experimental air and space research, These brave men will always be apart of the private space flight history,
I am sure Burt Rutan and Richard Branson will do all they can to take care of these families,But the public wants to be involed too.

Tales of the 'Rocketeers'

William F., State College, PA — Tue, 31 Jul 2007 16:10:53 GMT

No one has to give to this fund. But it is an opportunity for people who feel for these families to reach out to them and help. Incase anyone was not aware…it is a fund for the families, not a fund to pay for new equipment or mitigate the financial loss of Scaled.

I'm sure the companies are providing the resources they have available (like any employer) and probably more to assist the families

But those of us who are human and can feel the pain of the families who are suffering may want to help. Most realize that the death of a bread-winner presents obvious problems.

I commend the NSS for stepping up and organizing this compassionate response. Someone needed to do it and who better than such an organization.

Once again, this fund has nothing to do with the businesses of Scaled, NG, or Mr. Allen.

Please donate. Sure, we can't save the world, but we all suffer loss at some point in our lives and hopefully others will be there for us when we need it.

My sincere condolences to all those affected.

Tales of the 'Rocketeers'

Fred Schoenberger, Ocean View, DE — Tue, 31 Jul 2007 16:42:51 GMT

When I read about an accident of this severity occurring at a facility where hazardous operations are routinely conducted, I immediately question whether or not the organization involved had a proper safety program in place. In my experience (25 yrs. NASA, McDonnell-Douglas), most aerospace programs tend to play down the significance of ground and flight safety and fail to allocate proper resourses and authority to this vital function.

Tales of the 'Rocketeers'

LLS, North Las Vegas, NV — Tue, 31 Jul 2007 17:10:37 GMT

What happened with Scaled Composites at the Mojave Airport is not comparable to the NASA Challenger or Columbia disasters. Please stop the spin.

Tales of the 'Rocketeers'

Jason, Mojave, CA — Tue, 31 Jul 2007 17:14:19 GMT

I don't think they are expecting the public to bail out families, but are simply providing a location for those that wish to help. True, the projects are funding by private companies throwing loads of cash at it, but I think we can all appreciate the job and the risk that these engineers take everyday they work. I work out here at the airport but was gone on the day of the accident. Its affected this community and the family that is here. Its people like those that sacificed everything to get the normal person the future opportunity of space travel. Leaving it in the hands of governments will only ensure that we never will see the curvature of the earth for ourselves.

Tales of the 'Rocketeers'

FS, Tampa, Florida — Tue, 31 Jul 2007 17:16:31 GMT

I am said to hear that three died on the spaceship project. My heart goes out to the familys of those loss and to the familys of the injured. I have had technical problems with the way the project has been designed sence I first read about it. One of the bigest has been the lack of survival suits on the test pilots and the design of the ships. The Russians lost many pilots due to loss of air. Composit burns well and did anyone remember Apollo one? The choice of NOX propulson system is very under powered for what you may need to do. I can only hope that the project leaders use logic and not do what is cute theory and gets by until another loss of life occures. If I were to rate the technical level of SS1, I would put it a step near a Wright Flyler in comparison. We all know what works now in that venue of flight. In develping a trans-atmospearic craft, many designs have been tryed and tested already by the world science societys. I hope that someone goes to the history books and do some reading on what worked and what can go wrong before vesting lives in a design.

Tales of the 'Rocketeers'

Bill Hensley, Houston TX — Tue, 31 Jul 2007 20:24:45 GMT

Gundark, perhaps you misunderstood that the donations are for the families of the victims, not for Scaled Composites. This is not corporate welfare, it is about extending a helping hand to individuals who have suffered great personal loss and who now find their financial situation less secure at the very moment of their grief.

Tales of the 'Rocketeers'

William, Los Angeles, CA — Tue, 31 Jul 2007 21:20:59 GMT

"I'm not sure why the public should be expected to help out Scaled Composites here."

Thanks for sharing. Its funny, isn't it, that sometimes we expect companies such as Scaled Composites to "involve the stakeholders" and "put people before profits," but in a tragedy like this, throw out any possible community of interest with that company's mission...

...and instead fixate on the net worth of the company, and/or the deep pockets of its investors.

Sorry, but if you want companies to act morally, you must be prepared to admit that acts of solidarity and support *for* those companies can have an extra-economic, moral dimension.

You might find in fact be genuinely puzzled that Sir Richard Branson has not already cut a hefty check to the families, and if so I have nothing to say against that perception. Nor for it.

I really do hope, though, that you don't believe that the family fund is an instance of a "private handout." This is going to the families of the victims, *not* to equity.

This does not appear to be the strongest grounds you can stand on concerning possible conflicts of interest re: the NSS.

Tales of the 'Rocketeers'

Guy. S. Newell — Tue, 31 Jul 2007 21:52:43 GMT

Rich people don't get rich by handing out their own money. They can, however, be very generous with other people's money.

Tales of the 'Rocketeers'

Alien, Roswell, NM — Wed, 01 Aug 2007 00:18:12 GMT

Why didn't Scaled Composites take donations for the families of those lost from flying Rutan's Long E-Z?

Tales of the 'Rocketeers'

WMS, Las Vegas, NV — Wed, 01 Aug 2007 00:27:09 GMT

I, too, am sympathetic with the losses the families are suffering, and fail to understand how this could happen if there was a safety program in place. In response, I, and others, have contacted the appropriate Government agencies, including members of Congress, demanding a full investigation into this tragedy, and equally important, the underlying relationships between the X-Prize Organization, the Space Frontier Foundation, the NSS, Scaled Composites, Virgin Galactic, and the principals thereof.

Tales of the 'Rocketeers'

Michael Laine, Seattle WA — Wed, 01 Aug 2007 01:08:12 GMT

I am amazed by some of the acidic comments that have been made here. I am disappointed in many of you. When my friend died recently (not related to any of this, simply a family friend) there was a request to make a donation in her name to a cancer charity. People do that. It was a charity that was important to her, and it helped in the grieving process for those left behind. This is a common practice. Remember 9/11? We, in the community of America, wanted to 'do something'. Well, I for one, want to 'do something' for these pioneers in the rocket/space community.

As a kid, I cried when the Challenger crashed. As an adult, I cried when the Columbia crashed. So, now, I mourn and greive for these families. I don't know them, but I know what they stand for. We are a "Space Community" and for me, sending a small check, seems like such a small thing, but it will allow me to 'do something'... I think this is the right response for a community.

As a coincidence, I am visiting family nearby, and will be driving through Mojave this week. I will bring flowers to total strangers, because 'Space is hard'. And while they are strangers to me, I respect what they are doing and I think it is very important. If the only way i can show that is with a small donation to their families, i think that is the least i can do.

Take care.
MJL

Tales of the 'Rocketeers'

Gundark, San Diego, CA — Wed, 01 Aug 2007 01:18:01 GMT

I think the original message was misunderstood by many. I'm well aware that this private money is going to the victims families and survivors. That's the root of the concern.

What is questionable is the company's involvement in setting up a fund to accept private donations when Scaled Composites may have significant liability for the deaths and maiming of six employees. When it comes to paying out benefits, does the company turn around and say, "They've already received XX dollars through this private fund, we don't have to pay them as much."

I am compassionate for those killed and injured and their families. They should get as much of they are entitled to for their sacrfices. It concerns me a bit that well meaning members of the public to underwrite Scaled's debt to their employees when we still don't know what the company's liability is for this accident, what this says about their safety procedures and standards, if they're putting their people in unnecessary risk, etc.

It's a tough argument to make with people suffering and everyone is wanting to help, but I think this is a bit questionable. Especially since it's not been explained exactly what the survivors precisely need in terms of support, what's being provided to them now, and how insurance and any wrongful death settlements will cover that.

Tales of the 'Rocketeers'

Tom Turner, N. Las Vegas, NV — Wed, 01 Aug 2007 02:22:27 GMT

As an enthusiastic member of the “space community” I do not feel any responsibility for Scaled Composites’ and Virgin Galactic’s business operations and safety problems. Excuse my distain but Rutan and Branson have given the space community a big shiner (black eye). That said, I do feel tremendous sympathy to those hurt and to the families of those killed, as they are some of "our own." I want to make a donation. How much money do they need? As a donor is there a way that we the public can ensure Rutan/Branson do not furthering their PR campaign by presenting the funds to these poor people?

Tales of the 'Rocketeers'

William, Los Angeles, CA — Wed, 01 Aug 2007 04:06:50 GMT

Gundark,

My apologies; my original response to your point was a bit arch. I didn't consider the question of liability, and you do bring up a good point to consider.

My understanding is that a gift of money to a party who has suffered a loss is considered "collateral source" and as such, may not be deducted from the liability of the putative defendant.

I am no lawyer but this rule seems to apply to gifts: see for example http://www.west.net/~smith/tdamages.htm

If I'm wrong, someone please set me straight here. Until I am corrected on this point, however, I don't necessarily see anything peculiar about Scaled setting up this fund.

Tales of the 'Rocketeers'

Peter Seattle, WA — Wed, 01 Aug 2007 11:30:51 GMT

People kept asking if they could send money as charity for the families and where to send it so Scaled set up a fund. It's the thing to do! This was an industrial accident involving on-duty employee's, the company's insurance will pay handsomely to the families. Scaled has the BEST insurance for their families... Full benefits, I know because I interviewed there once.

Burt Rutan cares for his employees like they're his family. Scaled has had the highest safety record of any flight testing aerospace company out there. This is their first fatality in over 20 years of operation... Designing, building and flight testing some of the MOST innovative, radical and breakthrough aircraft in the world. They are now building spacecraft and this is considerably more dangerous.

It's hard to not be affected emotionally when it comes to this tradegy. The best way to honor these heros is to push on, continue their work and finish the dream they worked so hard on and ultimately lost their lives for.

Tales of the 'Rocketeers'

Bill Dauphin, Vernon CT — Wed, 01 Aug 2007 14:13:54 GMT

Gundark:

"What is questionable is the company's involvement in setting up a fund to accept private donations when Scaled Composites may have significant liability for the deaths and maiming of six employees. When it comes to paying out benefits, does the company turn around and say, 'They've already received XX dollars through this private fund, we don't have to pay them as much.' "

What makes you this cynical? Have you seen ANYTHING on the public record to suggest that Scaled or Virgin or anybody else is engaged in some craven attempt to shirk their responsibilities to these people? If there's evidence, trot it out; if not (and I certainly haven't seen any), I can't imagine why you would go straight for the least charitable interpretation of the story. And BTW, what makes you think any court or insurance company actually would reduce judgments/benefits as you suggest? And what makes you think the "XX dollars" this appeal is likely to raise would have anything more than a trivial impact on the XX *million* dollar judgments that would likely result if the families won lawsuits? Occam's Razor suggests that this charitable appeal is really... A CHARITABLE APPEAL!

And Steve Smyth: Businesses of all sorts negotiate with local/state governments over tax considerations, shared infrastructure development, etc. That sort of horsetrading really is "free enterprise," despite the fact that one of the traders is a public entity... and that sort of horsetrading does NOT violate the assurances of Virgin and others about "no government involvement," which referred instead to the sort of direct (federal) government funding of development and operations that has been the historical norm in space projects. Sneer, if you will, at the notion of "space tourism," but these folks (and their peers in newspace) really are changing the paradigm.

And WMS, great work! Let's stir up a high-level investigation of this. Never mind that we already have agencies whose job it is to investigate idustrial accidents like this one, never mind that Congress has a few other pressing matters on its mind... let's by all means jump right on this. We have to fight the NSS over there so we won't have to fight them over here, right? [/snark]

Look, I'm no apologist for Burt Rutan or Richard Branson: Both have said and done things over the years that have made me cringe. But it's mystifying to me why some people in this thread seem so eager to see a dark cabal hiding behind every sagebrush or tumbleweed. In the fullness of time, it may turn out that the company bears some culpability in terms of its industrial safety practices... or it may turn out to have just been a tragic accident. Either way, it's devastating for those families and potentially a major setback for private-sector spaceflight. Isn't that enough gloom for you folks? Do you really need to invent more?

Tales of the 'Rocketeers'

Rushy, Paradise, NV — Thu, 02 Aug 2007 00:47:47 GMT

Dude, it blew up without them even trying to fly it! Whoa!

Tales of the 'Rocketeers'

WMS — Thu, 02 Aug 2007 01:18:34 GMT

Bill Dauphin - you sound like more than a common interested respondant. On someone's payroll are you? Not unexpected. After all, with so much money involved, it's a no-brainer that we would see this, somewhere.

Very poised posting. Dead giveaway. I do not appreciate the attack.

Tales of the 'Rocketeers'

Alan Boyle — Thu, 02 Aug 2007 01:52:08 GMT

Phew, this thread has taken a rather ugly turn. I've given WMS a chance to respond, but from now on, please don't go after each other in your comments (see the rules listed below).

Tales of the 'Rocketeers'

Gundark, San Diego, CA — Fri, 03 Aug 2007 01:28:19 GMT

I'm sure that Scaled is taking good care of its people. And that's my point. I think they've got plenty of money (being funded by Paul Allen, Richard Branson and Northrop Grumman, among others) to deal with this tragedy. They don't need my contributions to help take care of victims and their families.

The subject of "what do we do if we have a bad day" has been the subject of a panel discussion in every major tourism conference of the last few years. If they've done their contingency planning properly, the company should be fine.

If people want to donate, that's fine. I know that the space community is a small, tight-knit group. I realize how this has reverbated through it. You want to help out your own. I understand that; I have many friends in this industry. It's genuinely touching.

As for me, I'm more comfortable donating to people who have been displayed by Katrina or watched half their village swept out to sea by a tsunami. I have a limited amount of money to donate, and one needs to prioritize to those who really need it most.

I also guess I'm looking at it from another perspective. I know at least 3 people who have put down deposits for Scaled flights. One of them is one of my closest friends. This tragic accident makes me much more concerned about safety. When you look at it from that viewpoint, one tends to take a harder line on safety issues.

I apologize if my original comments came off as cold and unfeeling. That's not what I intended.

Tales of the 'Rocketeers'

Bill Dauphin — Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:35:53 GMT

Alan's point is well taken. I'm sorry if I seemed to be attacking other commenters; I meant only to be engaging the ideas they expressed, and if it seemed too personal, I apologize. I will refrain in future from addressing anyone directly... except that I hope I'll be allowed to briefly defend myself against WMS's accusation of a conflict of interest on my part:

For the record, I am NOT "on someone's payroll"... at least not anyone in the newspace business or with any interest in this venture. The company whose payroll I am on, in fact, is one of those "Big Aerospace dinosaurs" that often get accused of trying to thwart entrepreneurial space efforts such as Scaled's program... and even then, my own job has no connection to my company's space-related business. Nothing about this story impacts my company's business or my own personal financial interests in any way. My interest in this story derives from nothing other than the fact that I'm a huge fan of human spaceflight, and I'm rooting for any and every effort that moves us closer to being a spacefaring civilization. No ulterior motives here, thank you very much.

More broadly, it's perfectly correct to say the key question behind this story is "what do we do when we have a bad day"; my observation (which I shouldn't have personalized) is that one thing the space advocacy community tends to do when it has a bad day is eat its own young, and that distresses me. There are plenty of people outside our community who truly are enemies of human spaceflight; we don't need to be making their arguments for them.

It seems to me that if a similar fatal accident involving pressurized gas had occurred at a Delta maintenance facility or a Boeing manufacturing plant instead of an entrepreneurial space company, folks would be content to let the appropriate regulatory agencies (e.g., OSHA, NTSB, FAA) do their thing, rather than immediately calling for Congressional investigations... and they wouldn't see anything sinister in a private fund to aid the families of the victims... and they wouldn't be looking for some web of illegitimate connections between the company, industry trade organizations, and private advocacy groups.

To a certain extent, this is fair: New industries are always subject to greater scrutiny than established ones. But in the absence of actual evidence of misbehavior, we shouldn't be so quick to attribute to ulterior motives or corruption things which can be adequately explained by the normal vagaries of high-tech industry.

Tales of the 'Rocketeers'

William, Los Angeles, CA — Fri, 03 Aug 2007 18:48:38 GMT

Bill Dauphin's point re: new industries getting a disproportionate share of scrutiny at a time like this, is well-taken; we've been here before.

I'm thinking of September 15, 1830, to be exact.

A man was killed that day, at the inaugural public run of the Liverpool-Manchester Railway, the first commercial rail line in world history.

His name was William Huskisson, parliamentary MP of Liverpool and a guest of honor riding on the locomotive named "Northumbrian." At a rest stop halfway to Liverpool, he detrained to speak to a passenger in another railcar - but at that moment, another train came up to pass the Northumbrian.

Mr. Huskisson, unable to correctly estimate the unprecedented speed of such a large machine, failed to get out of the way in time, and was run down and had one of his legs crushed.

(Which says something right there about the inevitable hazards of engineering something new.)

Unfortunately, he died about a half hour later, despite being carried to medical aid on the Northumbrian.

As shocking as this must have been (one report has it that the Duke of Wellington, who witnessed this incident, refused to board another train for a dozen years) see the difference now: when was the last time Congressional investigation was called for after a railroad crash?

Whatever one makes of this point, that original accident was prescient in more than one way. The name of the locomotive that Huskisson down: the "Rocket."

Tales of the 'Rocketeers'

Kelci Spears, Tehachapi Ca — Sat, 04 Aug 2007 03:19:46 GMT

I miss you Todd, very much..... It's so surreal reading about my boyfriend's life and the comments of people who did not know him, but who are thankful for the efforts put forth by Todd. He's missed greatly. He was a wonderful man with a wonderful heart.