Elevator Games aim high

john doe, thomasville, CA — Thu, 26 Jul 2007 21:59:40 GMT

This will never work.

Elevator Games aim high

one with imagination, Irvine ca — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 00:30:38 GMT

Are you kidding, of course this will work. I think it's funny when people with no imagination and little understanding of science make these claims of "this will never work"....

Elevator Games aim high

Keith, Knoxville, TN — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 02:00:34 GMT

The only thing that I question is tether strength. Everything else is engineering within the realm of what is possible. Tethers with sufficient strength simply MAY not be possible. Everything else is just the details. Only time will tell.

Elevator Games aim high

Des Emery, St. Thomas, ON, Canada — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 02:24:03 GMT

It worked last year and the year before that, and many university teams are working hard to make it work again this year. And best of all, they are so dedicated that they know it will absolutely work next year, and if not, then the year after that! NASA should make the prize a lot more and concentrate it on university, high school and elementary school projects - that's where new ideas are conceived.

Elevator Games aim high

Andy Motherway — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 03:16:05 GMT

I would never accuse someone named 'John Doe' of being unimaginative.

However, Mr. Doe, in the case that you are as benighted as your comment, might I suggest attending the X Cup this year. Your imagination is sure to be stimulated by the work that will be showcased there.

:)

Elevator Games aim high

Mikey — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 06:25:13 GMT

I suggest that "John Doe" visit a used bookstore and pick up a copy of "The Fountains of Paradise" - it's a 1979 SF novel by Arthur C. Clarke. Set in the 22nd century, it describes the construction of a space elevator.

Remember - SF is a predictor of the future.

The PC, the PDA, the hybrid car, television, satelite TV, videoconferencing, LEDs, and more (including GPS) were all invented by various SF writers.

I'm not going to bet against a space elevator.
All that is missing from the reality is a strong enough material.

Elevator Games aim high

Dennis, Richmond Virginia — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 12:49:50 GMT

Tether strength is a matter of WHEN, not IF. It's only a matter of time.

Elevator Games aim high

Andy G — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 14:38:37 GMT

The beauty of all this is people are trying to build amazing things, using their imaginations to create new ideas which in turn will develop into new processes and new technologies. And if it doesn't work? So what? I'm happy people are pushing the envelope......

Elevator Games aim high

Patrick — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:17:28 GMT

"This will never work."

Do you really need us to post the obligatory list of things happening everyday that people used to think could never work?

Powered flight
Flight beyond the sound barrier
Space travel
Nuclear energy
Lap top computers
Mobil phones
Synthetic diamonds
Cloned livestock

Can we stop here, or do you need more?

Elevator Games aim high

Reg, 29 Palms Ca — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:51:28 GMT

Of course it will work. One thing we learn in science on a daily basis is that anything and everything is possible. It is naive to think that because we lack the knowledge to do something today, that we will never acquire the knowledge to do it tomorrow. People are learning new things everyday in the fields of science. It is the same argument people use against space travel--the distances are too great and the amount of energy required too large. It is extremely arrogant and egocentric to think we can't do something. You are basically saying the human race has acquired all the knowledge it will ever acquire. Just because we can't do it today doesn't mean we can't do it tomorrow.

Elevator Games aim high

S. B. Stein E.B. NJ — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 16:35:39 GMT

I guess Mr. Doe would have been one that would have been willing to close down the U.S. Patent office around 1900 when someone thought that everything that could have been made was. We need to reach for the stars and bring the ideas that get us there back to Earth. If we can make them work there, then those ideas will work here.

Elevator Games aim high

Gary, FL — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 16:40:20 GMT

It's gonna be hard to get a tether to 'stand up' from ground level (like the 'Indian Rope Trick'), allowing a robotic climber to zip up (currently, they are using a crane to hold the top end of the 'ribbon') ... it'd be much easier if the 'ribbon' was LOWERED from something in LEO (Low Earth Orbit) - it'd then act like the 'bucket on a string'. Many scientists (including the venerable Arthur C. Clarke) have written extensively on this subject. Can it work? Yes. Will it take more research and effort and money first? Also yes.
This is one of those things that would really help humans as a species (cheap access to space!), but will take time, effort, and money.
I say - go for it!

Elevator Games aim high

Mike, Anchorage, AK — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 18:37:02 GMT

Certainly it can work. But will it ever be practical?

Elevator Games aim high

cool joe, coolievill — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 18:50:50 GMT

ok, if the elevator is gonna operate on a litght from earth, how is it gonna reach the elevator when it gets too high?

Elevator Games aim high

Lu, NY, ny — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 18:58:21 GMT

50 years ago space stations couldn't work either, now they do. Everything will work eventually, technology just has to catch up to our imagination. Good luck to all of the teams participating this year!!

Elevator Games aim high

Steve — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 19:05:39 GMT

Tether strength is possible using carbon molecules - nanotubes, I think. When and if it's possible to mass-produce those, we might have something.

Elevator Games aim high

Wayne, TN — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 20:12:18 GMT

The space elevator may have realistic applications for low gravity planetoids and moons without atmospheres.

The material requirements and effects of weather on any Earth size plant make the whole idea ridiculous.

Elevator Games aim high

Rocky Hurley, Asheboro, NC — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 20:27:41 GMT

Eventually they will succeed. As a side note to this, pulling a long electrical cable to orbit would provide quite a power supply for us. I am shocked that this isn't even mentioned as a way to power the future with clean energy. When NASA performed an experiment in orbit with a power tether, it generated so much energy that it melted the cable and broke. Regulating that much power will be tough though. Coming soon to a power plant near you... A cable to space that can power several large cities and more.... Hmmm... It just occurred to me that that would be a great way to power the beam riding robots. Tether to orbit with a built in power cable and all their energy needs are met in one operation... Cool!

Elevator Games aim high

Joe C — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 20:50:34 GMT

I would bet a million dollars (of Bill Gate's money) that there will be a space elevator within 20 years, maybe less...these competitions are a great way to do it, too, probably the best way to get real scientific innovation. The kid's component is great too, I woulda loved something like this when I was a kid. Back then it would have been the "LED Calculator" challenge though.

Elevator Games aim high

Steve Villanueva — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 21:08:05 GMT

Ha! Many folks doubted the ability to fly not much more than 100 years ago. I think anyone who doubts the ability for science fiction to become science fact has little faith in Humanity. Me? I have great faith in Human ingenuity. You go kids. Make it so!

Elevator Games aim high

Don — Sun, 29 Jul 2007 05:29:29 GMT

You have to do the engineering and math to know if it will work. Wishful thinking for hand waving doesn't mean anything.

The tether has to be strong enough to support its own weight. So even if it is very thin at the bottom, it has to be very thick at the top. You're talking about a structure that might have to contain hundreds of cubic miles of material. It ain't going to happen soon.

Elevator Games aim high

Gphillip, Houston, TX — Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:10:16 GMT

Micrometeorites and space junk would shred any tether placed in space. A tether can't be moved as easily as the space station to avoid all that junk. Even the space station just had shielding increased to protect against small pieces of space junk traveling at great velocities.

But it won't even last that long. Atmospheric drag in different directions at different altitudes will pull it down. The only way to keep it up is to constantly accelerate the space end of the tether. That takes much more energy than is saved by climbing one's way into orbit. It's all great fun, and some good innovation may come from it, but it will never ever work. And that's from an engineer.

Elevator Games aim high

Des Emery, St. Thomas, ON, Canada — Tue, 31 Jul 2007 06:02:50 GMT

Hey, hey, hey, people, look past your noses! Just go outside with a bucket of water and start swinging it back and forth, further and further. Pretty soon you'll have that bucket going around in a circle like a Ferris Wheel, around and around. And nary a drip will wet you. The centrifugal force will keep the water in the bucket. Now think of your shoulder as the Earth and your arm and the bucket as the 'ribbon.' The centrifugal force of the Earth's spin will keep the ribbon taut and whatever you put on the space end of the ribbon in a geosynchronous orbit.

Buckminster Fuller discovered that carbon (coal, diamond, graphite, etc.) could be formed into 'Bucky Balls,' molecular bits that folded upon themselves like soccer balls, enclosing space in globes with triangular panels, extraordinarily strong. Extruding these balls into tubular form allows for nanoribbons extremely thin and strong.

Space elevators will work, and soon. Hang around if you don't believe me, and see for yourself.

Elevator Games aim high

Gphillip, Houston, TX — Tue, 31 Jul 2007 22:16:57 GMT

These are very different forces. The earth isn't slinging the ribbon and its attached payload round and round. The attached payload is kept in geosynchronous orbit by a balance between the gravity vector always pulling the payload down toward Earth, and the velocity vector always sending the payload out in a straight tangential (to it's orbit) away from the Earth. This balance is only maintained because there is no air resistance or other forces at work to reduce the magnitude of the velocity vector on the payload.

If on the other hand, one stretches the ribbon through 20 miles of atmosphere that pulls and tugs on the ribbon at different angles at different times, the velocity of the payload is dissipated over time, causing the ribbon, payload and all to fall back to earth.

This is just a simple physical fact and no amount of hand waving will make this thing work. To offset the force of the atmosphere constantly tugging on the ribbon, one must accelerate the payload, similar to swinging the bucket faster to keep the rope tight. Slow down the swinging, and one is likely to get as wet as this goofy idea.

My apologies to NASA. I know a lot of those guys and correspond with them from time to time, but this idea only works if there is no atmosphere, or if the atmosphere is always perfectly still with respect to the surface of the Earth. That just isn't the case anywhere on the face of the Earth. In physics, there is no free ride.

Elevator Games aim high

Khafka, Tampa FL — Wed, 01 Aug 2007 20:49:47 GMT

I'm not an engineer nor do I claim to have the physics background to do the math on whether centripetal acceleration of the satellite will keep the tether under tension. I'm sure Gphillip is a very smart guy. Many other very smart guys/gals, however, think this WILL work. Obviously, one set of these very smart people are wrong - I guess time will tell which. Meanwhile, even the research into beam and tether technology is an incrediably good investment - regardless of their final applications. What's the harm in trying?

And Gphillip - you might very well be smarter than everyone else but being condenscending is a poor way to get your arguement across. Even if a space elevator is a "goofy idea", calling it that just makes you look arrogant and simply causes people to discount your whole post.

To cool joe - I believe they will user a laser for the light source. A laser is currently used to measure distance to the moon, so lower earth orbital isn't a problem.

Elevator Games aim high

Space Cadet, Melbourne, Australia — Tue, 07 Aug 2007 14:43:14 GMT

One requirement of space elevators is that there is a 'counterweight' above geosynchronous orbit to balance the weight of the cable. This can be offset to counter average drag forces, and the whole cable will be constantly adjusted using solar powered ion drives or similar, to avoid orbital debris and satellites.

It will all come down to economics in the end. There's little doubt a cable can be built, 2cm long nanotubes have been grown, (only 5,999,999,998 cm to go!), but at huge expense. If the cable can be built deployed and maintained, at less cost per kg of cargo than other launch systems, it will be.

But I wouldn't bet on it. I'm putting my money on Bussard polywell "radiation free" fusion reactors. They have the potential to reduce cost to LEO to under $50 per kg within 10 to 20 years.

Elevator Games aim high

grr — Thu, 09 Aug 2007 14:58:39 GMT

Hey Gphillip, can you now think about and explain what will happen if the counterweight (or payload, as you call it for some reason) is not exactly in geosynchronous orbit, but above it?

Elevator Games aim high

Gphillip — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 18:19:53 GMT

If the counterweight on the end of the teather is slightly beyond the geosynchronous orbit, it will revolve around the earth slightly slower than the Earth's surface turns underneath it. It then wraps the teather around the Earth and cuts the Earth in half, leaving all the idiots on the half of the Earth that I'm not on, I hope.