How far away is fusion?

Chris Eldridge — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 00:06:42 GMT

The quote that jumps out at me right away is "A 10-year cycle to do all this is very tight from our standpoint,"

I am always fascinated albeit impatient with how long such complicated projects take (even after full funding is approved). One of the things that definitely help is computer aided design which is becoming more and more common in everything. With it, the Boeing 777 didn't even need to be built as a mockup and things fit together far better right from the start reducing last minute redesigns.

Telecommunications also is a great assist in speeding things up. When building the New F/A-18E/F Northrop and McAir has several thousand computer work stations linked together even though they were miles apart. We also have yet to see the implact of things like rapid prototyping which allows a compter to render an actual 3D part from a vat of plastic within a mere microwave-like oven.

Oh Yeah... and the other quote that really stood out was:

"The cryogenically cooled tokamak will have to weather the radiation thrown off by the fusion plasma, as well as electromagnetic loads created by the magnetic containment system."

To which I reply: Just don't ask an American company to do it! Ha-ha!

How far away is fusion?

Franklin Sherman — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 00:55:07 GMT

It's my opinion that Neuclear Fusion is the way to go.

I do not understand why the United States stopped the experiment back in the 60's. i built an electric heat home with the expectation of electricity produce by fusion rather than fission.

How far away is fusion?

Alex Z, Seattle, WA — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 01:04:41 GMT

It seems to me that while fusion would be a great technology if it truly does the things that they say it will, we can't afford to rest too much hope on an unproven technology that will take another 10 years just to test. I think that cheap, reliable electricity will replace fossil fuels as the cornerstone of our economy as we electrify our transportation, increase electronics use in our economy, and automate more and more processes. However, there's a lot of "here and now" that we can do to improve electric reliability and reduce the cost of electricity, even without a silver bullet like nuclear fusion. Most homes still have "dumb" meters that have to be manually read, and while time-of-use electricity rates are increasing, the electric infrastructure as a whole still has a long way to go before we can consider it intelligent or modern. Lets put some heavy investment into these technologies while we're waiting for nuclear fusion.

How far away is fusion?

a p garcia — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 01:43:11 GMT

Why isn't a thing like this constructed in the USA? There is much more open spaces here in the USA than in France.

How far away is fusion?

Craig, Seattle, WA — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 02:53:46 GMT

"Basically, we know how to design this machine," he told me. "It's just a complicated, integrated package with a lot of different players, that's what makes it challenging for us."

Is it just me, or does this sound a lot like the Space Shuttle promises? This thing is a stupendous international jobs program that has grown out of control. The US was wise to get out, and dumb to get back in.

Did you ask the good Dr. why we're spending all our money on the most unviably huge and hard to control method of confinement? Inertial electrostatic and inertial confinement fusion are both far better-and cheaper-bets.

Does anyone ask why GE isn't even touching this stuff? Or have we gotten to the point where we've forgotten that business does most of the *useful* R&D?

How far away is fusion?

Diana Azar , tehachapi, ca — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 03:05:58 GMT

MY BROTHER FIGURED OUT A BETTER FUSION PROCESS. THE UNION OF COLD AND HOT W/ THE USE OF HEAVY WATER AND SOME OTHER STUFF I CANT GET BECAUSE ITS OVER MY HEAD BUT CHECK IT OUT ON NOBLEFUSE.ORG!!!!!!!!!

How far away is fusion?

C Eldridge, HBG PA — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 03:16:12 GMT

Why isn't a thing like this constructed in the USA?

a p garcia, To my knowledge, when things weren't going anywhere after a long hiatus of no funding, the US actually chose to drop out of the ITER program. When it was restarted by European powers and Japan they had full control of the project. I don't think the U.S. rejoined until it saw China had joined. One look at that photo tells me France also has some beautiful open spaces left for such a complex. I was disapointed to read that construction won't even begin until 09 as I would have thought it was just getting started and we might have seen some peliminary buildings that are part of the complex (though not the reactor building itself) at least going up. Heck, I think France fully intends to run a high speed rail line down there as part of the agreement. Canada did try to be the host nation as it to was one of the controlling members but could not compete with all the perks and vast commitments like high speed trains France and Japan were offering.

How far away is fusion?

nick wakeen — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 04:34:41 GMT

Hi! I am an inside journeyman wireman electrician and excited about the possibilities ITER can bring about. Remember the challenges early on with utilities starting out with dc and then changing to ac distribution. It took many to make it work and over time so many changes for the better have materialized. I was just wondering though, isn't France one of only a couple of countries that figured out how to make a breeder reactor work? If I remember right, one of the biggest pluses was that fact that basically this type of reactor leaves no waste. It uses everything----there is no radioactive waste and it is so much safer. Let me know if you know anything about such, eh?

How far away is fusion?

Des Emery, St. Thomas, ON, Canada — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 04:41:40 GMT

Bon jour, Alan -- hope your time overseas included some sight-seeing as well as site-seeing.

Fusion is the ultimate power source and operates the whole universe. Along with some other peculiar quantum techniques which are actually restrictive in nature rather than productive, as fusion is. We already know how to get the energy out of fusion, but only in a rather sharp burst of power in a destructive mode. I can't help but believe we can tame the beast eventually, as we have with so many wild energies in the past - wind, fire, water - and put our yoke on his neck. But, in ten years? Yes, if we put our money into it. No, if we leave it lie and 'let George do it.' My only other caveat is, 'Do we have that much time left before Global Warming takes us down?'

Other concerns such as excessive heat from fusion stations can be taken care of (refrigeration) as the occasion arises.

How far away is fusion?

R. Dahl, Palmer, AK — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 06:23:07 GMT

Actually, with the huge implications to the global environment being incurred by the current systems of power generation, why are we not embarking on a Manhattan Project approach? All this seems too little, too late.

How far away is fusion?

Jim — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 06:52:53 GMT

Yanks are too obsessed with Oil and wreckin the Planet

Most of Europe don't like them, and are trying to save the Planet, not Wreckit like the Yanks

How far away is fusion?

CM, Modesto — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 07:23:23 GMT

I predict that after spending billions, the ITER will still not "break even", will still require more energy to run than it can produce. It will get a little closer to the goal,and that will be used as a justification for even more billions wasted.

What it will prove is that a reactor big enough and powerful enough to exceed breakeven will be so ridiculously expensive that it cannot be economically practical.

How far away is a reliable working fusion reactor?

About 93 million miles.

How far away is fusion?

Patrick Bishop — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 07:42:33 GMT

The sun is a whopper of a fusor. If we spent 1/10th what this thing is going to cost on developing superior solar voltaic technology, we'd solve the world's energy crisis forever.

How far away is fusion?

D. Charles Shiderly — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 07:55:14 GMT

Wow, all ITER, all the time. What about Clint Seward's Electron Power Systems? What about Eric Lerner's Dense Plasma Focus device, a reactor design that's achieved plasma densities and fusion rates three times that of any tokamak-style reactor, and has been licensed by a Swedish engineering company for full production by 2012, about the time ITER finally breaks ground on the reactor site?

Furthermore, what about Dr. Robert Bussard's four decades of work, culminating in an electrostatic confinement device that actually produces _net_energy_, to the tune of a 3000% energy production?

Oh, and did I mention that none of the above have radioactive fuels or byproducts? That they're all over 70% efficient in converting their power to electricity (ITER works by boiling water to turn steam turbines, tech from the last century at an efficiency of around 20%)? That these reactors would fit nicely in the space used by a small gas station, and could drive hydrogen electrolyzers and provide quick-charge capacity to pure electric vehicles as well as servicing the local power grid, improving things by decentralizing the production of electrical power? And that the only byproduct is slightly above room temperature helium gas?

ITER is a pipe dream. Unfortunately, Big Science in the form of government-funded projects (NASA, the Atomic Energy Commision, etc.) is the only thing getting money and press time.

I was really hoping to see real journalism in this article, but it's just all rehashes of ITER press release fodder.

How far away is fusion?

CE — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 08:18:47 GMT

P.S. I think you called this science tour a working sort of vacation, which is the exact kind of vacation I'd like to take. It would be quite a trek, but I'd visit Paranal (site of the Very Large Telescope (VLT)in Chili), The European space facility in French Guiana, a tour of Airbus would be to die for, and I wouldn't mind seeing very large engineering projects like the tunnel under the Swiss Alps when it opens!

Hope you enjoyed the trip! Welcome back to what I am calling the day democracy died... you know... those pesky congressional subpoenas that the justice department won't enforce because it's been um... HIJACKED!

How far away is fusion?

Kevin Carbone — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 08:28:03 GMT

"Why isn't a thing like this constructed in the USA?"

Because the greenies and the AlGores of the country won't allow it. They know better than you what's good for you. Don't believe me? Just ask them.

How far away is fusion?

ronald — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:05:58 GMT

A P Garcia..why wasn't it built in the USA?? For the same reason trees don't get harvested or new oil wells don't get drilled or any one of the many things that we should be doing. They probably wanted to build it here but there was a family of birds or something living in the area and a bunch of enviro-nuts went on the march

How far away is fusion?

Mike in Manhattan, KS — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:47:04 GMT

The reason it is not being built in America is because of American's attitude,"Not In My Back Yard!"

That is why Technology wise, the USA is falling behind. Just look at the medical system. They do amazing procedures in other countries than in the US. I know, I asked my specialist a few years ago about a procedure they did on one of the Astronauts in Europe. He said sorry, we can't do that here in the US.

How far away is fusion?

A Kercher — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:31:35 GMT

To answer: why isn't a thing like this constructed in the USA?

If I remember correctly: There was a lot of wrangling over the location of ITER. ITER provides to the host country: national prestige, scientific clout, and jobs. The host (which I suppose is "Europe" not just France) is required to foot a larger part of the bill than the other partners. If I remember correctly, I think other partners were trying very hard to be the host country. The end decision was based on a combination of political and scientific grounds.

How far away is fusion?

GetClub.com — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:46:50 GMT

Solar is better than Fusion I feel in 10 years Solar will be 5 times cheaper than Fossil Energy. So we should invest in Solar Energy instead.

Bye
www.GetClub.com

How far away is fusion?

cris perte — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:51:24 GMT

forty years is too long of a time. I do understand that TOKAMAK fusion is very complicated and that doesn`t help things... There`s a company in the states that`s been studying IEC fusion and say they beat all the problems that have been haunting the IEC system....

Electron loss, Maxwellian problems, Brehmsstrahlung radiation, and Synchrotron Radiation Loss issues with IEC fusion have been solved, to improve on previous fusion rates by 100 000 to produce a fusion rate of about 1E9 /sec...

Bussard is the guy`s name and he says that he could have a self-sustaining, 100MW polywell IEC fusion plant within 7 years, whose fuel is salt from the seawater(boron), and absolutely no radioactive byproducts, and no pollution.

yea i know... "could", right? Keep in mind that the ITER is in the same boat but it`ll take the ITER another 40 years and 900% more funds than the IEC.

here`s a link with some more info
http://emc2fusion.org

How far away is fusion?

Marty Porter - Cookeville, TN — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 12:00:37 GMT

The French have the best most experienced nuclear regulatory agency in the world. The primary reason the plant isn't being built in the USA, is that the French didn't run away from nuclear energy at the thought of a nuclear accident as did the USA. We have rabid environmentalists to thank for that. Also, as a global effort, many other countries didn't want the plant in the USA. The level of trust globally for the USA- who can blame them. (I'm a republican and even I can admit that.)

I'm for nuclear fission in the near term and nuclear fusion in the long term, in addition to the cleaning of traditional sources as well as pursuing alternative green sources of electricity. Unfortunately, non of these are built over night. You can't just throw a switch and VOILA! you're generating power.

The extreme environmentalists hold entirely too much sway here in the US. We need to continue to build power plants and electrical distribution infrastructure to keep up with demand growth- else the rolling blackouts in California may become a nationwide problems, and the recent power outages in the northeast are symptomatic of an industry that has been hamstrung by environmental regulation entirely to long. The costs of all of the environmental studies alone, make power generation and distribution projects hard to justify. People need to get some perspective. We can all keep our heads in the sand or we can take the steps needed to keep the lights and heat on!

The activists in the minority have painted the rest of us in the majority in a corner, its time reasonable people prevailed instead of those who scream the loudest, or the most shrill.

How far away is fusion?

Erik Westgard, Minneapolis — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 12:04:46 GMT

It's going to take about $500BN to get fusion to the point where it's viable- this project is just a start. There is no real substitute for this type of large scale power generation for running cities, and making hydrogen for airplanes and cars, etc. I think we need to accelerate this project and start designing the next generation of research reactors right now.

How far away is fusion?

Bob Dutilly, Jessup, MD — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 12:33:45 GMT

Nuclear fusion will be one of the most important aspects for the world's future energy needs. The concepts and prototypes have been worked on for the last 40 years. Hopefully the team will be able to overcome the technological barriers for efficient use. The time period of 10 years will of course be stretched to 25 years but it will be worth the effort.

How far away is fusion?

Eric — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 12:41:38 GMT

garcia,

Bill Clinton pulled us out of ITER during his term. Part of the reason was justified -- a lot of infighting, and more politics than science going on. I do not think the US would have been considered anyway, but there was zero chance once we pulled out of the project.

What is sad is that we've spent over a decade just arguing about the site for this place to be built.

How far away is fusion?

Christopher Christiansen — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 13:01:49 GMT

I'm sorry, but we've been assured for 50 years that fusion power is "just over the horizon". So far, nuclear fusion has ended up as what we tech-geeks refer to as "vaporware".

How far away is fusion?

Donald Meadows, Atlanta Georgia — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 13:43:24 GMT

Why is France the chosen country for this facility? As Americans, I do not know why we constantly include France in our economic and political ventures. The French are notorious for never finishing anything and historically, they can even maintain control of there country. Twice in the twentieth century the USA had to go there and defeat a power that had assumed contorl of there little country. American blood still oozes from the ground there and the French people should give thanks everyday for the Americans that gave their all for them.

How far away is fusion?

Richard Curtis, Huntsville, Alabama — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 14:02:35 GMT

I studied fusion as an graduate student, 40 years ago. Tokamak, invented by the Russians, already existed. Attempts at various magnetic confinement approaches already existed and consumed large amounts of money. (A Tokamak was even built in the US!) Laser-induced fusion ideas already existed and consumed large amounts of money at the same organizations that make up this team. The "break even" point, at which the energy generated in the fusion reaction is equal to the amount required to make the fusion reaction was always 20 years (a generation) away. This ITER effort promises results ~ 30 years away. Fusion has always been at least 20 years away. I can't help but conclude that as long as it is 20 years away, we will never get there. "20 years away" has to be a euphenism for "I have no idea how to do this!" I can't believe that trying to figure out what went wrong with the older technology is going to give a break-through.
I am sure the money ($100s of Billions) will be spent. (It's all politics.) I would like to hope it makes something happen this time, but don't count on it.

How far away is fusion?

Chester Twarog, Milky Way — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 14:10:16 GMT

Negative to ITER. Too much $$$$$. Not applicable to small communties worldwide. Ok for interstellar fusion mega-ships for galactic colonization.

Actually, for 4.5 billion years, as you are well aware, plasma core fusion has been about 92 million miles away. We just need to efficiently "collect" the continuous electromagnetic spectrum energies from our own star.

How about genetically modified super tree "homes"? How about building "tree houses" utilizing the shade of the foliage? There are more possibilities open with imagination and creativity.

After all, the Anasazi and Hopi used cave overhangs to shade/cool their communities during the "hot" season and let the lower sun angle sunshine in during the "cool" seasons.

Anyways, conservation, more energy efficient appliances, improved zoning laws for alternate housing technologies (geodesic domes, yurts, underground homes, sod covered homes, hay bale homes, etc.) with technologies and engineering to create "stand-alone", independent, housing/condos/apartment units generating their own power.

Or, reducing the human population by half, naturally, without genocide, war, terrorism? There are currently far too many to sustain a long term global civilization safely with prosperity, health, and intellectual growth. Most people are not future orientated long-term planners--discipline and self-restraint.

How far away is fusion?

Mike Woods, Saratoga, NY — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 14:10:27 GMT

The ITER isn't being built in the U.S. because joe sixpack is terrified of anything where the word radioactive is used. joe sixpack had better get used to fission/fusion reactors, it's going to be a major way the U.S. is powered in the future!

How far away is fusion?

Don Andrews, Electric City, Wash. — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 15:03:44 GMT

We need to speed this process up,fusion has been on the verge of reality for as long as I've been an adult and I'm 70 years old. The best way to speed this along is to keep wasting energy like we have in the past, everybody needs a herky 4 door pickup to haul groceries or a huge RV. An extended war helps too, either way we're going to need fusion sooner rather than later.

How far away is fusion?

Paul Fennimore - North Lauderdale, Florida — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 15:15:37 GMT

It seems like some people just cannot let go - Nuclear fusion is a dangerous idea - it has many draw backs to it - on the other hand the French would be wise to check into an on-coming and very soon new technology called SEG - Searl Effect Generator. As of this day the SEG has by far the very best potential of any alternative energy programs including nuclear fusion.

How far away is fusion?

Chris , vernon ,bc — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 15:27:28 GMT

Well i do love the thought of almost completely free energy but do laugh at the fact that they says this reactor will be harmless. to the best of my knowlage this reactor will contain a nuclear blast 24 hours a day and if that magnetic field fails..... well you know what happened at hiroshima.

Just a note i'm all for green technology but it should not be pushed forward just so some people look good for the crowd. make it safe then make it avalable

How far away is fusion?

Boyd T. Peoria, AZ — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 15:35:10 GMT

Big bucks, dedication and incentive developed tha "A" bomb in less than 1/4 the time. I hope other research will not be robbed of funds by ITER. Like what happens when a neutron source is bombarded with high energy protons and any resulting products. Neutron source: alpha-n reaction,such as PoBe or long half life PuBe.

How far away is fusion?

Patrick S., Washington, DC — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 15:48:42 GMT

France has the greatest number of engineers, scientists and regulators experienced in the practical application of nuclear technology. They have a populace accustomed to nuclear power, its benefits and its risks.

The French have significant advantage in all things Nuclear right now. Most Americans are not aware that the French firm Areva provides maintenance, operations and upgrade of must US reactors. New US reactors are being built by a consortium of firms, chief of which is Areva. France generates most (80%?) of their domestic power from nuclear, whereas we are in the low to mid 20% range.

The US does have good theoretical scientists that are valuable to the ITER project, but our practical experience building, managing and operating real systems is waning (if not defunct). The Calvert, MD reactor (our first) is over 40 years old and is scheduled to begin upgrade maybe in 2012 -- the first real new commercial core in the US in over 30 years.

The US needs to catch up. Until then we work in France.

How far away is fusion?

Steve Andrich, Marina, Cailf. — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 15:48:51 GMT

Fusion is the future of power generation, if we can achieve ignition and sustained reaction, then it may be possible for individual homes to have there own power source, perhaps even miniature reactors built into everyday devices, we would not need oil any more, except for using it for lubrication, as well as the reactor may be able to synthesize any element we may need!

How far away is fusion?

Doubtful, in, America — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 16:31:31 GMT

Why not the USA? You want that kind of Crater in your back yard, if something goes wrong. Remember, this is the power of the sun and the H-Bomb. :)

Actually Failure to get any viable results is the more likely outcome. But can we afford not to try....

How far away is fusion?

Tom Babbitt, Cleburne, Tx. — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 17:31:27 GMT

Until nuclear fusion machines become more than "lab-rat" machines, we need to look for alternatives to fossil fuel generator stations. One possible alternative is plasma gasification of waste materials. The process is well understood, and could reduce the amount of landfill waste. We burn the gases that result from the process to power ordinary steam turbines, use part of the power to operate the plant, and sell the rest.

How far away is fusion?

Jon Davis, Coos Bay, OR — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 17:40:22 GMT

Several years ago I read an article pointing out that increased funding would shorten the development time, sent it to my Congressman (Defasio), and got back a nonsense answer, thus explaining the funding question. The politicians are ignorant.

For much the same reason, the center of nuclear research has shifted to other countries. We still do research and development, but more effort occurs overseas. (Google China and fusion.)

In terms of funding, the dollar amounts are very small in relation to the money going into other energy generation. It could easily be increased.

ITER is being built in France after considerable wrangling, partly because Clinton pulled us out of ITER; Bush put us back in; and we lost considerable clout because of that.

How far away is fusion?

Andy. Boulder, Co — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 17:50:10 GMT

"Why isn't a thing like this constructed in the USA? There is much more open spaces here in the USA than in France."

Are you kidding?

If you tried to build anything nuclear with 500 miles of any one in the US they'd have you tied up in legal battles for 10 years. The Europeans aren't as litigation happy as we are in the US. Also they use nuclear power for more of their energy needs than the US, this is espcially true of the French, so they are probably less likley to freak out in the first place.

How far away is fusion?

Patrick S., Washington, DC — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 18:47:21 GMT

Fusion in your backyard?

With respect, this is a sci-fi fantasy that would make little to no practical sense even if possible. I'm not a fan of "big grid" projects but think that micro generation on the order suggested in your post is wasteful. One hundred million or more mini-reactors would drain significant resources from already low supplies -- tungsten would rise to the cost of platinum, for instance. We'd need to strip mine the earth.

I think you are on the right track in one respect, though: smaller reactors would likely reduce many of the existing infrastructure issues we have today. Upgrades of existing grids (and implementation of new ones) would go faster if the system were smaller.

How small?

Something on the order of Los Angeles/NY/Chicago running their own reactors. Other reactors could span a state (in flyover country, for instance) but they have simpler infrastructure anyway.

Fusion is not a panacea. No "baseline" power generation can be unless it can alter output volume rapidly to grow and shrink with daily requirements. But it would be much cleaner and potentially cheaper than carbon fuels.

The promise of fusion (or any silver bullet technology) is lost without more research toward conversion of non-baseline systems (cars, etc.) to electric-capable systems. This means storage (battery) and superconductor research.

In the meantime, we should grow our fission-based reactors to meet more of our baseline demands. They are building one in my backyard and I don't mind one bit. As a matter of fact, more than 90% of residents within 40 miles of Calvert Cliffs think a new core is a great idea. But we're not like the rest of the USA, mind you.

We're smarter. ;)

How far away is fusion?

Adam, Iowa City, IA — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 18:52:27 GMT

Actually, the United States has an inertial confinement fusion lab at the University of Rochester's Laboratory for Laser Energetics and is building a larger facility (the National Ignition Facility) at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. I don't believe that the LLE has produced anything close to break-even fusion energy, and I think that NIF hopes to break even at best. Both are/will be used to check the health of nuclear weapons, too, now that we no longer perform real tests.

How far away is fusion?

Jim, Raleigh, NC — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 19:00:34 GMT

I find it interesting with many people saying "it will work" or "it won't work" as if they have already done it themselves. The fact is, right now we simply don't know if fusion can be viable or not given our current level of technology. Regardless, I think we owe it to ourselves to find out.

As to why they chose the tokamak design, I have to trust that all the scientists working on the design have good reasons for doing so. I am no physicist and almost no one posting here is either. So right now, I choose not to second guess. History will tell.

How far away is fusion?

Don Pointer, Buckhorn, New Mexico — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 19:08:50 GMT

Re-read the article and note the use of Deuterium and Tritium producing Helium and Neutrons. Neutrons are radiation, guys, and the lining of the Tokamak will become more and more radioactive and will deteriorate and will need to be replaced periodically. Where do you want to put the old, highly radioactive lining? Don't laugh at cold fusion until you've read the original papers and subsequent follow up experiments.

How far away is fusion?

David, Ann Arbor, Mi — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 20:49:50 GMT

Uhh, hate to break it to you guys but the energy from fusion reactions comes out in the form of high energy neutrons. It sure sounded like somebody was trying to say electrostatic confined fusion puts out energy directly in the form of electricity. Neutrons need to be stopped so you can get the energy from them, this is done with FLiBe, the [N,Li] reaction is where they get tritium from. Neutrons also activate stuff, so there would be radioactive byproducts albeit short lived ones.

The US already has a huge waste of money fusion project called NIF. Luckily France is now building a ICF system called laser megajoule. They dont have the GDP that we do though to pour billions of dollars into these projects, so we will ultimately win by bankrupting their country.

I am totally sure that ITER will surpass breakeven as this was already "done" in Japan. The fact that they were using D-D instead of D-T led to a huge decrease in the output, had they used D-T the equivalent Q would have been greater then 1.

How far away is fusion?

Riverman53 Rocky River OH — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 20:50:10 GMT

Why do Republicans/conservatives need to turn every discussion into a war between good (the U.S. capitalism) and evil (enviromentalists, Democrats, Europeans, especially the French) It's ignorance like the kind displayed in the various posts above that's holding this country back and why we're turning into a backwater. We're falling behind in technology and science because of Creationists not enviromentalists.

How far away is fusion?

Frank, Dallas, TX — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 20:55:48 GMT

"American blood still oozes from the ground there and the French people should give thanks everyday for the Americans that gave their all for them."

You mean kind of like how we should thank the French for saving our hide in the Revolutionary War and again in 1812? They don't owe us squat.

How far away is fusion?

cris perte, vancouver, canada — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 21:44:12 GMT

Eh.. did any of you ever google search "should google go nuclear"? ...

A lot of you stating that ITER will take another 30 years and hundreds of billions of dollars.

Well this bussard guy had VERY ENCOURAGING results from one of his IEC fusion reactor prototypes and claims that with 3 million dollars or so(doesnt have the funding), he could prove his results in two years tops.

If results are positive(why would anyone make false claims... knowing that your rep is on the line), which they will be, reactor would be scaled up to 100MW output in another 5 years and would only cost 0.2% of the TOKAMAK... or $200Milion.

It can be scaled up to deliver from 100MW to 3000MW of poweroutput.

I know theres other types of fusion too but IEC is the only one with positive results NOW, meaning you wouldnt have to wait another "30 years"....

How far away is fusion?

GaryB — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:31:35 GMT

The reason Fusion isn't solved is that one experiment takes 10 years to approve, 10 years to try, and the agreement of 14 different international committees. No out of the box thinking is going to come from that.

We need new ideas that can make the experimentation cheaper if this is to be solved. My main hope is that impassioned article about why it can't be solved -- a sure sign that it can.

How far away is fusion?

Parker — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:52:09 GMT

Wasn't this the plot of Spiderman 2?

How far away is fusion?

Brian Hufe — Sat, 30 Jun 2007 16:02:47 GMT

Fusion will be the answer, but since it will likely take 30 years, we can't just continue using fossil fuels assuming it will happen. We need to continue to invest in solar and wind energies, and continue to do research on how to make those processes more efficient. Hopefully by the time fusion comes out, the burning of fossil fuels will have already been replaced, and the only advantage of fusion will be using less land for more energy.

How far away is fusion?

MARC DORAN,VALLE DE ORO,TX — Sun, 01 Jul 2007 20:08:00 GMT

WHY ARE WE BUILDING A NEW FACILITY IN FRANCE WHEN WE ALREADY HAVE ONE 40% COMPLETE IN TEXAS.

How far away is fusion?

David Russell, Halifax, Nova Scotia — Mon, 02 Jul 2007 02:31:53 GMT

I am most interested in Electrostatic Fussion, however, break-even does not seem possible when you look at the math. No one has of yet created a viable virtual cathode - and the non-virtual version simply can not work. Firstly, it interferes due to its physical presence, and secondly, making it smaller makes it non-viable in the plasma heat.

One last thing in response to "You mean kind of like how we should thank the French for saving our hide in the Revolutionary War and again in 1812? They don't owe us squat."

The US lost the war of 1812 due to the pluck of the Canadians, natives and some English troops to hold their ground in the face of numerically superior odds. The US attacked Canada simply because England was busy with Napoleon, and used the pretex of immpressment as their spin to implement their concept of 'manifest destiny'. Once Napoleon was defeated and England's troops were free to fight in North America (burning Washington), the US ended the war as it was no longer viable. I am not sure how the French 'saved' the US in this war.

How far away is fusion?

Robert, MPLS, MN — Mon, 02 Jul 2007 14:54:28 GMT

Why don't we just do what Doc Oc did on Spiderman two? All we need are stronger robotic arms to hold in the radiation.

How far away is fusion?

Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Tue, 03 Jul 2007 05:54:46 GMT

Just what is going on here?? I can't believe fusion energy is still sucking 10's, 100's and billions of dollars out of the public. They make trillion watt lasers to compress and fuse hydrogen pellets GIVE ME A BREAK....

It's a dead end.

How far away is fusion?

Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Tue, 03 Jul 2007 05:58:55 GMT

Gravity is the only force that allows stars to work as far as we know. God musta screwed up or is having a big laugh watching himans trying to do this.

How far away is fusion?

Paul S. — Tue, 03 Jul 2007 16:05:55 GMT

A pity to think that all that pretty French countryside will be laid waste for what is really little more than a physicists-and-engineers welfare program. --PS

How far away is fusion?

Bob, Boston, MA — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 18:44:48 GMT

I'm just wondering if radiation will really reduce the body odor of the French? If this doesn't work, we may have to try more radical means. Perhaps a giant solar mirror in space directed towards that pretty French countryside? The bigger the better.

How far away is fusion?

Des Emery, St. Thomas, ON, Canada — Mon, 09 Jul 2007 04:03:21 GMT

Because ITER is the subject 'du jour' and is located in France there seems to be a lot of anti-french attitude on display. A few comments: the French are intelligent despite their superior demeanor, or maybe because of it. They are the ones who set the example of revolution for the betterment of the common man, among many other fundamental concepts. They are also cognizant of the part the Allies played during WW11 and if you went there you would see the cemeteries of the many 'foreigners' carefully and lovingly tended, kept green and well-maintained with flowers and tears. Unfortunately, many Americans can't see anything of value beyond their borders. Pity.

How far away is fusion?

Wayne, M'town TN — Sun, 15 Jul 2007 01:06:06 GMT

""American blood still oozes from the ground there and the French people should give thanks everyday for the Americans that gave their all for them."

You mean kind of like how we should thank the French for saving our hide in the Revolutionary War and again in 1812? They don't owe us squat.
Frank, Dallas, TX
"

"The US lost the war of 1812 due to the pluck of the Canadians, natives and some English troops to hold their ground in the face of numerically superior odds. The US attacked Canada simply because England was busy with Napoleon, and used the pretex of immpressment as their spin to implement their concept of 'manifest destiny'. Once Napoleon was defeated and England's troops were free to fight in North America (burning Washington), the US ended the war as it was no longer viable. I am not sure how the French 'saved' the US in this war.
David Russell, Halifax, Nova Scotia (Sent Sunday, July 01, 2007 10:31 PM)

"

The British through the Canadians were arming and supporting Indian raids on US Pioneers before the War broke out, After Idians defeated a relatively small force that had attempted to capture a couple of key towns the British betrayed them and the Indian Warbands were virtually anihilated by US forces. This accomplished the purpose of the American mission to Canada by way of British and Canadian treachery towards their Indian allies who'd done the vast majority of the fighting.

The British Troops that burned a large part of washington fled when US troops counter attacked.
American Navy Frigates sank or captured many British vessels, the British only suceeding in capturing a large number of privateers.
One American frigate captured enough British gold on her voyage to almost pay for the entire campaign.
The French were already the enemy of the British, their battles were their own.

I have never heard of Americans dishonoring French Dead, but the French certainly did desecrate and dishonor the graves of American war dead.

I've visited the Palace of the Legion of Honor in San Francisco, a tribute to American Volunteers who fought in WW2 built by a French Field Marshall with contributions of grateful French Citizens, they don't make 'em like that any more.

As for Fusion VS Fission, Thorium enhancement is probably the best way to go, it burns up the remaining Uranium fuel reducing waste and not leaving bomb grade plutonium or Uranium waste in a form that can be easily processed into weapons grade materials.

Fusion is still pie in the sky.

How far away is fusion?

bubba fett — Tue, 17 Jul 2007 10:01:12 GMT

sigh... just go google and search out "emc2fusion"

How far away is fusion?

M. Simon, Rockford, Illinois — Sat, 08 Sep 2007 01:32:34 GMT

ITER is way too expensive and way too big. An operating plant is projected to produce 17 GW of electricity. The largest coal and nuclear plants produce 1 GW and most plants being built today are under 100 MW.

There is an answer IEC Fusion and the Navy is funding it.

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/
2007/08/bussard-reactor-funded.html

I have inside info that is very reliable and multiply confirmed that validates the above story. I am not at liberty to say more. Expect a public announcement from the Navy in the coming weeks.

The above reactor can burn Deuterium which is very abundant and produces lots of neutrons or it can burn a mixture of Hydrogen and Boron 11 which does not

The implication of it is that we will know in 6 to 9 months if the small reactors of that design are feasible.

If they are we could have fusion plants generating electricity in 10 years or less depending on how much we want to spend to compress the time frame. A much better investment that CO2 sequestration.

BTW Bussard is not the only thing going on in IEC. There are a few government programs at the University of Wisconsin and at the University of Illinois at Champaign-Urbana among others.

How far away is fusion?

M Chatterton — Mon, 17 Sep 2007 21:21:53 GMT

Those of you who think Bussard has the answer with IEC Fusion are suckers. His presentation at Google was a complete pitch for $$$. Watch the talk and you find all the elements of pathological science at work:
1) Inventor has great invention
2) Greedy establishment scientists hate great invention (and/or inventor) and want to quash it, fearless inventor battles odds and gets money from true believers (often in the Navy for some weird reason).
3)Years go by, millions are spent. Inventor, having not saved the world, loses funding, which he attributes to enemies subverting him.
4)World is screwed.

Welcome to the world of pathological science!

How far away is fusion?

mtosh — Thu, 27 Sep 2007 16:00:13 GMT

General Fusion says they have the technology to build a safe, economically viable, modified MTF fusion reactor by 2010.

http://generalfusion.com/

How far away is fusion?

Patricia Najor, Devon, UK — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 16:23:34 GMT

If Nuclear Fusion can help us to maintain our planet and our future, then how can we question such a pearl? In truth, in our hearts, we must know that nothing can have a greater priority than that of looking after the very place where we all live. If Nuclear Fusion can promise, (even if with some questioning, ok, at the moment, but nevertheless,) the offer of some hope for the catastrophical forecast for the future of our world if we do not 'clean up our act' and sort out our pollution and global warming problems, then I feel we should go down that road, with hope, and just as fast as we can.

How far away is fusion?

cristian — Thu, 03 Jan 2008 12:02:20 GMT

M. Chatterton you may be wrong about Bussard - the money he got from funding did not go into his own pocket. And pls analyse situations a little closer next time... eg - if you are correct and Bussard is a gold digger what the heck is an 85 yr old man gonna do with money... buy himself some more time on this earth? come on man you know better. And if you are skeptical about IEC fusion look at these publications(which are very recent).. they all point to the IEC fusion having much higher chance of success than previously thought.

http://ssl.mit.edu/publications/theses/PhD-2007-McGuireThomas.pdf
http://ssl.mit.edu/publications/theses/PhD-2007-DietrichCarl.pdf
http://ssl.mit.edu/research/Posters/FPPG_Poster_2006.pdf

PS - keep an eye out at http://www.talk-polywell.org between march-may 2008 because you`ll have positive, reviewed results from the WB-7 prototype which is currently being built and set up at a new mexico facility under a renewed US Navy contract....

When the heck r u ever gonna see a working prototype from ITER... i`m sorry but it`s taking way too long. Its just dragging on.

How far away is fusion?

Alien Alias — Mon, 07 Jan 2008 18:44:54 GMT

USA will not allow ITER construction within it's property, being the sole of N.Americas moreover due to leftover ideology from the manhattan proj. and all to do with the unknowns, destructive force of the test and knowledge curves. Think, National Security or best, Preservation. Fusion is a core central of events however, as previously stated, there is something more. Yes, indeed...in the meantime, visit europe while you're still able...and remember, man's present mental ability is 1/10th of potential. Science finds it impossible to exist with God, while mans only definition to God's ability would be science...and when they have no definition, it is paranormal ? what is normal...Only one has the answer...mankinds limits coming to a planet near you...

How far away is fusion?

Guy S. Newell — Tue, 08 Jan 2008 14:11:26 GMT

If not an American company, then who? It might suprise you to know that American built heavy equipment is in greate demand all over the world despite it's high price, simply because it's the best.

How far away is fusion?

lil leppercorn, liverpool — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 01:03:58 GMT

Seems to me that a lot of people are missing the point. Forget the anti French sentiment and concentrate on the issue which is that Fusion must replace fission! We know its possible...ie..the sun...but to produce and harness, well there is the issue. As a question, how long can we continue with carbon fuels? How long can we continue with fission and its by-products and waste? Fusion has to be an answer, perhaps not the final answer but certainly in the mid term, meaning for the naxt 100yrs or so to relieve our forthcoming energy crisis!Without being nationalistic I suggest in the short term the Yanks extract their heads from their arseholes and look beyond their borders.They are responsible for the consumption of approx 70% of the worlds energy resources and still will not sign up to the KYOTO AGREEMENT which in itself is trying to contain the effects of energy consumption! Fusion...not fission will at least give us breathing space to calculate what to do next!!!

How far away is fusion?

Rod Burr. — Wed, 02 Apr 2008 14:47:25 GMT

It's been awhile since anything was posted, and it may be that no one reads this anymore, but I have one comment. 40 years is too long. We need fusion reators asap... as a matter of national security. I believe that a new Manhattan Project... is the answer. A focused government project in the desert with absolute top priority and funding... properly staffed... would probably solve the problem in less than 5 years. The criticality of the need... is every bit as elevated... (if not more so) than the need which drove the original Manhattan Project. Ending our dependence on Middle Easter Oil... removes 90% of the new wealth of those nations... and, thereby their ability to threaten the west militarily, terroristically, or economically. Removes 90% of the risks of Military conflict that we face today... removes the chokehold that the cost of energy has on our national economy... and on our standard of living.... what has been overlooked in most of the posts above... is that fusion promises to not only be safer (and cleaner) than fission, but also will generate dramatically more energy... really, nothing more should need to be said.

How far away is fusion?

Greg Freeman Sydney Australia — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 04:07:45 GMT

I think that this is a great idear that can reduce so much wasted energy, Ie the joke about turning on a light globe, I would also support a facility being built in costal Australia, but only on the west coast though.

How far away is fusion?

p. parween — Fri, 16 May 2008 20:21:36 GMT

my sister was one of the top three fusion scientists in the world and has a lot of respect for this area as a solution to energy crises alternatives to the manufacture of oil, etc. I feel that this area is still overidden with scientific dominance and that theorists may have not listened to a less agressive form of energy production which does not support particle bombardment, but another form of work to produce this. the location of such reactors is a very delicate and non public space and the work that is going on should be supported by all people irrespective of politics or religious space.

How far away is fusion?

Anthony Nelson, London England — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 11:59:17 GMT

Much better to spend billions on power sources for the future of mankind than on wars. Much better to behave like homo sapiens than like neocons.

How far away is fusion?

dion walley — Sun, 29 Jun 2008 03:03:01 GMT

how can i invest in this vision of a green future

How far away is fusion?

Josh, San Diego, CA — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 04:14:01 GMT

I am a current grad student studying fusion at General Atomics DIII D tokamak in San Diego, CA. This power now more then ever needs to be explored. God willing ITER will be on-line on time. I have made a short fusion movie advocating fusion energy on youtube. Here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-3LmTzZHAo

P.S. I was going for an Al Gore riff. :)

How far away is fusion?

Josh, San Diego, CA — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 04:17:28 GMT

Rod Blurr- You must be an angel sent from heaven. I could not agree with you more. Please keep spreading the good word.

How far away is fusion?

raymond belanger — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 05:02:14 GMT

When fusion is developed it won't be the "property" of any single country, It could be the work of, say, german scientists, in a country like say, peru, and we in the U.S. will have to either buy the technoligy or steal it. Most lkely it will be published in a standard publication, so it won't really matter, It's science, not politics .. Ray

How far away is fusion?

Kenton, Placerville, CA, USA — Sun, 31 Aug 2008 19:02:18 GMT

Instead of a centralized power plant we should be focusing our time, talent and money on de-centralized power, i.e. hydrogen. In harnessing hydrogen we are using the most abundant resource in the universe to power our needs. We should get off the oil teat asap and design our systems (vehicular and otherwise) to use this resource and quit making mega-companies rich off the general populace.

How far away is fusion?

Delmar Fairchild, Barron, WI — Fri, 12 Sep 2008 14:18:42 GMT

I agree that the sun is already up and running and will last for more than humankind's time on Earth. There has been great strides in solar panels. If the government would give everyone in the USA the panels for their homes and business roof tops and hook them to the grids, it probably wouldn't cost nearly as much as what we will eventually spend trying to duplicate the sun.
I believe that we still need to discover whatever we can, but at this point in time, solar, wind, nuclear, oil and coal is the only thing we have to power our lives. Oil and Coal can be cleaned up to the point of satisfying most people in the environmental groups if they would just let if happen. Most of them are too self centered to allow it. I think they like to see their names on lawsuits.
Much like a lot of scientists are self centered on the fusion front.
We need to understand fusion and whatever else we can find out, it is only human nature, but to think we can't do anything other than fusion to power the world is grandiose at best.

How far away is fusion?

dan w pittsburgh pa — Tue, 28 Oct 2008 19:54:59 GMT

when we talk about the time frame it seems a long way off. 2040 to determine if commercial fusion is practical. thats 32 years. but dont forget that the first oil embargo was 30 years ago and look where we are now. nowhere. i think its the greatest technological undertaking the scientific community and the world has undertaken. i hope it comes to fruition and in 50 years we can have a real energy solution. and 50 years ago the us launched its first satelite into space. and perhaps in 50 years we will be running of out oil and natural gas. its not that far back or that far ahead.
dan w