Engineers getting a makeover

Joan Keever — Tue, 08 May 2007 00:30:02 GMT

Dean Kamen, the inventor of the Segway and several other innovations, is a role model for thousands of middle and high school children worldwide. He is the founder of FIRST (For Inspiration & Recognition of Science & Technology). Each year, tens of thousands of kids participate in the FIRST Robotics and FIRST Lego League robotics tournaments. I have worked with a FIRST Robotics team*, and am amazed at how much the students learn from the engineer mentors, and how much the engineer mentors learn from the students!

*Team 34, The Rockets

Engineers getting a makeover

Tue, 08 May 2007 00:47:01 GMT

um, sorry pal. These kids don't know what a sliderule is, much less the pocket protector. Those were gone when I came on the scene in the 80's. What does hold them back beside freshman diffEQ at 8am on Monday mornings is pretty simple. They may well have watched a parent have up/down problems in their worklives, and so, are not interested in that. This is the same issue with Programming and Sciences, and Mathmatics.

Having Gates as a spokeman isn't the best, because he is older, and isn't known for being tres chic outside of tech circles. They will need someone far more charismatic to add to the interest... I'd vote for Steve Squyres of Mars Rover fame... since Buckaroo Bonzai, and Chris Knight are probably both a little too esoteric...

Engineers getting a makeover

Des Emery The Carborundum Chronicles,St.Thomas,ON,Canada — Tue, 08 May 2007 00:48:01 GMT

Hi, Alan - Aren't the Astronauts mostly Engineers? And the test pilots? And the designers who make their shoes? Skyscrapers may be formed in the minds of architects, but they are built by engineers, along with the Native Americans who sling the steel and the immigrants who lay the bricks. Maybe the work of the Engineers is mainly hidden, but it is their efforts which fuel civilization's progress.

When I was younger, like more than fifty years ago, I always wanted to become an Engineer. In my mental romance with the profession, the building of bridges to cross over rivers stirred my soul like nothing else. But it was not to be. I still admire the trade, though, and often think "An Engineer would know what to do."

Engineers getting a makeover

Chris Eldridge, Harrisburg PA — Tue, 08 May 2007 00:51:51 GMT

These people need a wakeup call, not a mere makeover. "Functionality" is the gemstone of society’s know-how and yet this all-important concept seems to be the last consideration in modernday engineering or architectural project! Everyone is out to make a name for themselves with one fancy, wasteful project after the next. If we choose to forgo functional designs because we aren’t willing to foot the bill or we want something that looks fancy in order to portray our social standing in a class-based system, we only end up hurting ourselves and our environment in the process!

We face an era where extremely intelligent people from the group that Stephen Hawking belongs to, have suggested humanity only has a 50% chance of survival this century and yet NO ONE wants to step out and face these grim realities or be labeled as some kind of doomsayer. Our homes and communities last far too long not to plan for what is likely to happen in the decades to come, good or bad.

Ultimately (by definition), the best designs are those that are the most suitable for their expected operating conditions, the most appropriate for their intended purpose, and those that are both effective and efficient at what they do.

The complex and all-encompassing analytical design process is intended to identify the best possible design solutions for a given problem by looking at every possible consideration. By understanding how this process is supposed to work by seeing how it is used in other areas (like the military, mountaineering or in racing) where so much performance is demanded and waste is utterly frowned on, we can apply these very same principals to better design the everyday things we use in the rest of our humdrum society. If we can design our homes, cars, clothing, and all of our belongings to perfectly suit our needs, there will be nothing we cannot do and nothing that could ever stop us!

Engineers getting a makeover

Jay Patel — Tue, 08 May 2007 01:00:20 GMT

The reason Engineering is ranked last is attributed to very rare opportunity to make big amount in the enginnering career versus others like doctors. For example, if you become doctor, it is a promise to get good money. For Engineer, it is not the same, you have to be one in few thousands to make good money. Compared to Teaching, it has lot more efforts to put in and fewer vacation in the career. Until we see more successful stories for engineers, I think this will be the case with career prefences.

Engineers getting a makeover

Craig from Seattle — Tue, 08 May 2007 01:40:24 GMT

Dean Kamen's FIRST competition was what got me into engineering in high school. Now I'm in my 20's and ... not an engineer. I have the degree, but I don't work as an engineer.

I think a lot of these professional organizations are eating their own seeds. They force legal requirements of extensive certifications that take many years in a prescribed path to attain. If you want to be a Civil Engineer but aren't a good classroom learner, good luck: you'll be working as a drafter or designer or survey assistant for a couple decades before you get the chance, doing the same thing that licensed engineers do but for far less money. Professional organizations are good for industries. Guilds are not.

Engineers getting a makeover

Grant, Kerrville, TX — Tue, 08 May 2007 01:47:29 GMT

I’m a BSEE ’79 University of Florida and I have to say that most of the stereotypes regarding engineers are valid. In my estimation, the problem is the “curriculum” which is a rat’s nest of intellectual hurdles designed by academics for the sole purpose of ensuring that only eggheads survive the program. As such, most graduates are not really engineers at all….they are academics with engineering degrees. Really, it’s sad.

Engineering, at its most elegant, occurs when science is creatively applied in order to manifest structures, products and/or processes that enrich lives. Accordingly, engineers must not only be scientifically skilled, they must be artists, musicians, architects, pilots, builders, athletes, psychologists, farmers, etc. because without a measure of these talents, the science is little more than Rubik’s Cube: a useless novelty.

By far, most of my career has been in private practice. Over my 27 years, I have been witness to the decline of engineering as a profession. Where engineering schools fail to turn out academics, they turn out technicians instead. Occasionally, perhaps due to some genetic mutation, a student will survive the program and, in spite of that, become a real engineer. In some cases, that engineer will land at the feet of a mentor that also happens to be an engineer…and a vestige of the profession bumps along through another generation. God bless ‘em.

I do not agree with the general notion that the program should be “kinder and gentler”…it should not. Part of the magic of engineering is overcoming thin odds. Those that are easily defeated have no place in the world of engineering and should be washed out. That said, I’d change the detergent: synthesis would be valued on the same plane with analysis i.e. creativity, teamwork, creative problem solving, project management and brainstorming would have to be sufficiently demonstrated as a requirement for matriculation

If you want to attract youth to engineering, introduce them to pilots (Gene Cernan - astronaut), athletes (Charlie Johnson – St. Louis Cardinal quarterback), entrepreneurs (Jeff Bezos – Amazon.com founder), artists (Robert Fulton), comedians (Rowan “Mr. Bean” Atkinson) and others that somehow managed to stake a claim in the real world while holding an engineering degree.

Engineers getting a makeover

Matt, Savannah GA — Tue, 08 May 2007 02:28:51 GMT

Well I am an Industrial Engineer, and I find it quite reassuring that many CEO's, COO's and various manufacturing executives, have their undergraduate degree in Industrial Engineering, or engineering of some sort. Instead of always emphasizing about what you can do with your EGR degree after college, how about emphasizing what you can do with it, once you have been using it for 5 years or so.

I am not saying that we don't need engineers to be engineers, because I am very glad that many stay in the profession. But my main reasons for getting an EGR degree was knowing the doors it would open, and the training that EGR school would give me for my career. EGR school teaches you how to "think" in the most efficient manner. It is ingrained into your psyche beginning in freshman year. That is a valuable asset in a global economy, where success is usually measured in innovation, creativity, efficiency, and the willingness to do the hard work. All of these things are the backbone of a good engineering curriculum.

I was an IE for 4 years after college, and already I am in management at my company making way more than most engineers who have been here for 10 years or less. Thank you, engineering school.

Engineers getting a makeover

John Porter, Northborough MA — Tue, 08 May 2007 02:50:24 GMT

I nominate Trevor Pounder of Intel Corp as the face of Engineering. He works at the former Digital plant in Hudson, MA.

Engineers getting a makeover

Chris, Huntsville, AL — Tue, 08 May 2007 03:06:15 GMT

It will be very difficult for engineering to ever match up to the persona that goes with the law and medical professions. They are popular/prestigious because of the famously large salaries that accompany these positions. Unfortunately for engineers, it's highly unlikely that an average engineer's salary will compete with a lawyer's or doctor's. That makes sense too considering the number of years of schooling required to start in those fields.

The only chance engineering has of attracting youth is to focus on the things that interest them. When I was a kid I was fascinated with spy stuff, blowing things up, flying, rockets, etc. It might be inspiring to some to see what some engineers get to work with, such as top-secret programs, cutting-edge planes, helicopters and spaceships (I think Burt Rutan is doing a great job inspiring a nation in the area of privatizing space). There are also engineers who get to blow stuff up for living (under the guise of testing). I've met some who've blown up navy ships and I've blown up more common machinery. Another fun part, is taking the machine apart afterwards to find what broke (crime-solving?). Also, kids are interested in video games, so showcasing the high-tech software packages (like STK from www.agi.com) could be inspirational.

No matter how much money is spent, it'll be difficult to inspire kids to get interested in designing roads, HVAC systems and water treatment plants. It takes a certain individual to get interested in that stuff, but there are some things that are interesting to lots of kids (boys at least).

Inspiring girls is a completely different subject.

Those are my thoughts from a young engineer's perspective.

Engineers getting a makeover

A Computer Engineer — Tue, 08 May 2007 03:06:57 GMT

The most public face of an engineer on television these days is Grant Imahara on Mythbusters. Shows like Mythbusters and Extreme Engineering, also on Discovery, provide a window into engineering.

One of my favorite characterizations of engineers in cinema is in Apollo 13. OK, they look like prototypical engineers (right down to pocket protectors and slide rules), but they solved the problem at hand (keeping the astronauts alive to make it home) with the material at hand.

Fundamentally, engineering is about problem solving. Science is discovering new facts, engineering is putting those facts to work solving problems.

As for convincing students to study engineering, there's a real conflict. Companies claim that there aren't enough engineers to hire, yet they are laying off (particularly engineers in the computer field) to hire in India and China. Engineering is a profession, like teaching, medicine, and the law. Studying for four or five years (or longer for an advanced degree), and then being outsourced doesn't look like a sensible career path. In the early 70's (when I was entering High School), the aerospace industry laid off thousands. I saw that and abandoned my dream of designing aircraft and rockets, and fell in love with computers. I have my PhD in computer engineering and have worked in the field for 25 years. But most of my coworkers are steering their children away from electrical and computer engineering toward careers that are "hands on" (i.e. presumably non exportable). One popular choice is veterinary medicine, because it's presumed people won't send their cats and dogs to India for treatment.

Engineers getting a makeover

Jeff, Tampa, Fl — Tue, 08 May 2007 03:08:31 GMT

Why would the profession need a makeover, anyway? I got my engineering degree and I can't find anyone that wants to employ me. Jobs for newcomers are scarce. Everyone wants the guy that already has their professional license and 5-10 years of specialized experience under their belt.

If new engineers are getting scarce, then I haven't noticed.

Engineers getting a makeover

m, college station, tx — Tue, 08 May 2007 03:19:29 GMT

why do not physicist have a "makeover party"? are not these the elite of the elite, who actually work under the most complicated subjects and suffer under the most complicated "weeding out"?

Engineers getting a makeover

ceecee, Los Angeles, CA — Tue, 08 May 2007 03:24:33 GMT

For spokespersons, how about Burt Rutan, Bill Nye (Science guy), Jimmy Carter, Neil Armstrong, Homer Hickam (Rocket Boys/October Sky) or Jean Luc Picard/Patrick Stewart? Famous engineers from history: Leonardo Da Vinci, Wernher von Braun, Wright Brothers, Robert Goddard, Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, Howard Hughes. Engineers can use a more visible, inspiring public image, but as far as making engineering courses easier - I hope doctors dont try that just to get more kids through Med school.

Engineers getting a makeover

Jason Isaacs, Oceanside, CA — Tue, 08 May 2007 03:47:10 GMT

I'm a little disturbed by the idea of dumbing down the courses. I want to know that the person who qualified the bridge I'm driving over passed the most difficult freshman calculus and the person who designed the heart defibrillator I may one day need understands electromagnetic physics extremely well.

Almost no engineers are going to be on the cutting edge of anything. By nature engineering is a profession that primarily deals with infrastructure which is not the most "sexy" aspect of modern life. We don't need people who want to be engineering stars, but people who want to meet the challenge of designing and developing the products all people (including the stars) depend upon.

As far as prominent engineers today, Burt Rutan comes to mind as a good role model. He's brilliant, rises to challenges and views publicity and secondary to solving problems.

Engineers getting a makeover

Lynnette, WI — Tue, 08 May 2007 03:57:26 GMT

In the fall I will begin my freshman year of college and join that small group of female engineering majors.

I completely agree that engineering does not get the attention it deserves; I would have a hard time finding many classmates in my high school that have seriously given a career path in engineering a decent thought; it took me quite a while before I did. I think my age group just haven't been exposed to possibilities in this multi-faceted profession.

It troubles me that people want to make college courses easier in order to retain students in engineering programs. "Dumbing down" courses will not help the situation. I believe that we need to make math and science courses a bigger academic focus well before college. I find it disgusting that I was required to take 4 years of English to graduate high school, but only 2 years of science and 2 years of math. How could math and science possibly be less important that analyzing Shakespeare? Don't get me wrong, I love Shakespeare and I believe reading and writing skills are highly essential, but I could care less if the cashier counting out my change at the grocery store is familiar with Hamlet. Why not 4 years of all core academic subjects: english, math, science, and social studies? Many high school students probably do think it would be difficult to be an engineering major, but who wouldn't when they stopped learning math after their Basic Principles of Algebra course sophomore year? We can't expect the number of engineering majors to increase until we have enough students with the math and science background to handle engineering courses.

Engineers getting a makeover

Bill, Redmond, WA — Tue, 08 May 2007 06:17:36 GMT

I am one of those that washed out early on - 4 times. Calculus, in combination with severe lack of study skills, just did me under time and again. Then I went out and WORKED for a few years as technician. After learning what real work was like, I got back into night school and was blessed with a calculus instructor who also taught Physics at CalSt-LB. He was "old-old school", and was always giving examples of why a function would be useful later in our careers or studies. I still remember the "religious experience" when he showed us how a matrix transform function was the basis of a phased-array antenna.

The coursework needs to be tough. As stated above, lives depend on good engineering. I've worked with a few "engineers" who couldn't design there way out of paper bag. (They turned out to be fairly good managers. Hmmm?!?)

I agree - Burt Rutan. However, my kids have no idea who he is or what he does. (Does that make me old school?) They do, however, watch the crew on MythBusters. So, my vote goes to Mythbusters.

I'm now working as a Hardware Test Engineer at Xbox. All of the sudden, I am the parent with the cool job. I hope I can influence one or two kids to give engineering a shot.

What would really help make engineering more interesting is some additional coursework for engineers, like Social Skills 101 through 401. It would include topics like "how normal people talk", "how normal people dress (no black socks with your white sneakers regardless of the heat transfer characteristics)", "the vast majority of girls don't care about Hawking's latest theory (and if you do find one - how to ask her to marry you)", "once you're out of school, you no longer have to prove you're the smartest person in the room", "speaking to children (they aren't little adults)", "why chemistry sets are not good gift ideas for newborns", and "we only play that game at work."

Engineers getting a makeover

Lisa B., Hastings, NE — Tue, 08 May 2007 06:41:24 GMT

Years ago I realized that my son had an inherent ability to problem solve. When he was younger we made sure he had enough Duplos, KNex, computer programs, games, etc., to keep him engaged in creating whatever his heart desired. When he was 11 I would record the tv show "Extreme Engineering" for him to watch and was thrilled when he would quickly grasp the possible solutions to each projects' major hurdles...before the show gave the solution. For example, using magnetic rails and a vacuum environment to reduce friction for a transatlantic transportation system that could make a trip to London from New York in less than 3 hours.

He learned to be proud of his abilities because WE were proud of his abilities. After he graduates high school next year he's looking forward to building a career as an engineer. I've spent his lifetime trying to show him the amazing things the human mind can achieve with the right desire, knowledge, skills and tools.

Can you then imagine his reaction when, after achieving top percentiles in math and science on a standardized placement test in school, the suggested career path listed for him was a plumber or electrician? Vital jobs in society, yes, inspiration for someone who could build the next Golden Gate bridge or Hoover Dam or transatlantic transport, hardly. We have to stop showing kids their possible limits and focus instead on the fact that they are ALREADY the next amazing generation. We can only predict the future past our lifetimes, THEY will be building it and living it.

Engineers getting a makeover

Scott, San Francisco, CA — Tue, 08 May 2007 07:36:47 GMT

There are good financial reasons for an intelligent person not to become an engineer as opposed to a doctor or lawyer. Engineering jobs more than those in law or medicine are subject to the forces of globalization. If you like the constant feeling of thinking your job may be eliminated, then by all means become an engineer.

Engineers getting a makeover

Steve Smyth — Tue, 08 May 2007 08:23:43 GMT

As far as examples go, doesn't anyone remember Doc Edgerton? He could be the role model for so many disciplines it's almost ridiculous. Do they award PhD in 'Jack of all Trades'...with an independent thought process? Edgerton could figger out anything, and show it in the physical world...quite a trick, eh? learn more about curvilineareality... http://smythspace.blogspot.com

Engineers getting a makeover

Rich, Milwaukee, Wisconsin — Tue, 08 May 2007 10:27:36 GMT

Kids don't want to be engineers because they have seen what an unappreciated job it is. My son watched as his dad lost his job as a Senior Project Engineer for the automotive industry and couldn't find a job with anyone else. All those jobs are now in Mexico and China. There are no engineering jobs available in Milwaukee anymore. Why would any child want to repeat his father's mistakes?

Engineers getting a makeover

John, Arlington, VA — Tue, 08 May 2007 10:43:27 GMT

I have 3 engineering degrees with employment that could be considered somewhat interesting. (sonar, radar, electronic warfare). My experience in engineering is less than satisfying, however, I don't believe the source of the problem is with students lack of awareness, or ill-suited marketing/advertising campaigns on young minds.

The anecdotes in these posts share many parallels with the outcomes of Toyota and American automakers. Focus on the essence of engineering rather than trivial gimmicks to attract unwary buyers. This includes the dissatisfaction with engineering and the reason people leave rather than enhancing the inflow. The relationship among engineering training, academe, professional organizations, and the business community needs a makeover.

Part of the attractiveness of the other professions (medicine, law) is the associated prestige associated with higher education. When one attains higher education in medicine/law their career options expand considerably. The effect of higher education in engineering varies; in some cases options expand, but in others they diminish. One reason is the close association of engineering training with academe, and the narrow but ultimately less usefull flexibility associated with higher engineering education.

Looking at medicine and law as a model, several undercurrents are obvious:
1) Formation of higher-education professional schools.
2) Strong professional societies equivalent to the american bar/medical associations.
3) Make passage of some type of board exam mandatory (bar, usmle equivalent). this would reduce the influx and outsourcing of jobs to non-citizens.

Oh, and despite reasonable success as an engineer, I am considering more satisfying career options. There is quite a bit of substance to the alleged illusory stereotypes of engineering.

Engineers getting a makeover

John Doe — Tue, 08 May 2007 10:48:53 GMT

To the people who say you cannot make good money in engineering here in Ohio $70K with 2 weeks vacation is not uncommon for a mechanical engineer with little to no experience.

Engineers getting a makeover

Dan — Tue, 08 May 2007 11:32:42 GMT

Young engineers are those people we hear about when discussing layoffs and offshoring. Why get a degree in a field where you're then supposedly competing with somebody who can live like a king on one third your salary in some communist country?

Executive management excluded of course. Their jobs are much too valuable to offshore.

Engineers getting a makeover

Jack Kahler — Tue, 08 May 2007 12:25:09 GMT

I agree with the previous comments: the problem is a perceived lack of opportunities and financial renumeration.

Many of our best engineering opportunities were in manufacturing sector, but domestic industrials have been in severe decline for decades. Many engineers have been hit by off-shoring and outsourcing, and it's hard to imagine a new generation of kids finding professional inspiration in their parents' pink slips.

Dumbing down the curriculum will only dilute the profession. Plenty of kids would crawl through ten miles of broken glass to become lawyers or doctors, so it hardly seems like an issue of desire or capability.

I am an industrial engineer and very much enjoy my profession, but the world has become more challenging since I received my degree in the 1980's. If we want others to pursue our profession, we must somehow create suitable opportunities that justify the hard work that it demands.

Engineers getting a makeover

Gene Putman, P.E. (Professional Engineer), Thornton, Colorado — Tue, 08 May 2007 12:46:45 GMT

Makeover for engineers what an idea! Look around you. Every drop of water, every road you drive on to work, every building you live in, work in, and eat in has been touched by an ENGINEER. I am a transportation engineer, and proud of it! Engineers are problem solvers, solution investagators, and designers of our world. We need to speak up, go to school and talk to students, get out of our shells.

Men and oh yes women make good engineers. Yes, engineering school is not easy, but it is not something that can not be overcome. We have numerous role models each is different in their own field of understanding. I do not think this should be called a makeover, but a coming out of our shell party so that we educate the world on what we do, why we do it, and why it is good for our world. We need to educate, communicate, and talk.

Engineers getting a makeover

Christian, Wiscasset, ME — Tue, 08 May 2007 12:58:06 GMT

Burt Rutan could be a great current day engineering role model. I am afraid, however, that the average high school senior has never heard of him. I doubt Grant Imahara is going to turn to many kids' heads either. Or do you think they know that Grant has an engineering degree...AND that they want to be like him?

Engineers getting a makeover

Tom Willett, Dover, NH — Tue, 08 May 2007 13:15:45 GMT

Gene Roddenberry pegged the profession forty years ago when he compiled the original Star Trek bridge crew. Chief Engineer Scotty was always expected to do the job in half the time with half the budget. Meanwhile, Captain Kirk was off exploring the Pleasure Planet...

Engineers getting a makeover

Dan, Bend, Oregon — Tue, 08 May 2007 13:17:32 GMT

I am an engineer but I see this as a real non-issue. Engineers are not in short supply (not even close) so there is no good reason to encourage students to pursue the field rather than, say, any other field.

Engineers getting a makeover

J. McCright - La Plata, MD — Tue, 08 May 2007 13:24:11 GMT

The reason that there are few engineers as role models (if which I am one) is that in the hierarchy of a company, we are stuck in the bottom or middle tier. We come up with new ideas or someone brings an idea to us. Then we use our engineering skills in mechanics, electronics, materials, chemistry, physics, mathematics to take that idea from vision to reality. But in the grand scheme of things, we are never seen nor heard because we serve as the "black box" for the company, a mere operation that objects go through to transform them from hope to reality. If we are lucky, we MIGHT get our name tacked onto the end of a long list of people for a patent which is ultimately held by the company anyways and we get a tiny fraction of "bonus" money for our efforts.

The real "face" of a company are its CEOs and presidents who get to hawk their new products while standing on the backs of the engineers that handed it to them.

Even today, one of the best examples of a engineering role model, Mr. Steve Wozniak, the co-founder of what is now Apple, Inc., still ended up being second fiddle to the Face-man and other co-founder Steven Jobs, who as we know today takes great pleasure in promoting the wares that Apple's great engineers make for him.

For kids to get interested in engineering, they need to be shown what it takes to make the things they like. Making the molds for Barbie doll body parts or the detail in getting the weight just right in their next baseball bat...something to pique their curiosity into that other world where all their "cool" stuff comes from.

Truth be known, no one engineer can be everything. It is all of us...using our knowledge...working together...creating something special that the masses can use to better their lives. To point the finger at just one of us as "the reason" for a product being a success gives the perception that the others were not as important. Even if I were the brainchild of a terrific idea, and was instrumental in making it a reality, I could not in good conscience take all the credit knowing that there were many others that helped my idea become real. But I certainly would enjoy being able to bring my own idea to the masses.

Engineers getting a makeover

Jack Kahler, Glen Ellyn, IL — Tue, 08 May 2007 13:34:11 GMT

Engineers getting a makeover

Dave2.0, Boston MA — Tue, 08 May 2007 13:40:32 GMT

The 2006 Harris Poll shows that we always ranked 10th, we just didn’t know it. Somewhat like middle management, we’re jammed between the theoretical from above and the unworkable from below. Mythbusters, Extreme Engineering and science shows about ancient engineering are great PR for us. Sadly, the dumbing down of math and science courses began in public schools years ago. If engineers ever find a way to sell themselves in a job interview, they can then sell themselves to the public.

Engineers getting a makeover

Doug Smith — Tue, 08 May 2007 13:45:56 GMT

One huge difference between now and a generation ago has been the explosion of computer-related jobs which directly compete for a geek's career path. I got my engineering degree in 1977. Probably 90% of my fraternity brothers were engineering majors. Now, the majority are computer majors. Further, about half of the guys I went to school with, including me, now do computer work instead of engineering. It's a very different marketplace now.

Engineers getting a makeover

Neil, RI — Tue, 08 May 2007 13:46:06 GMT

Wow, this article is a description of the reality I live in right now. I am finding the engineers arround me jumping ship from all facilities around the world. Engineering IS glamourous... if you are working on new technology. The problem is this, the field needs thousands... nay millions of engineers to fill thankless very challenging possitions in every imaginable company and municipality. I read the comments from Florida Jeff. Jeff if you need a job call me, engineers can fill any of a thousand job descriptions with little or no additional experience. Of couse the best engineering jobs require a ton of experience. I find, in my role right now as an engineer, every project I work on succeeds or fails based entirely on my ability to allocate engineering resources to the project. What the country needs, is a lot more selfless soldiers who know that they are important because they work hard to solve problems every day. An engineer's measure of success must come from within, from a knowledge that society is better because of your efforts.

Oh, by the way I would never do anything else. Engineers are awsome because we know what brownian motion is!

Engineers getting a makeover

Robert Smith, Plymouth, MI — Tue, 08 May 2007 14:03:53 GMT

There are two fundamental issues making engineering less appealing to younger people today: Media portrayal (or lack thereof) and the lack of a strong math and science education at the elementary/ middle/ high school levels.

With law and medicine it is easy to write a TV show-- they have inherent emotional connection with their issues. Without emotion you don't have an engaging viewing experience. You pretty much have to contrive an emotional engineering experience (McGyver?). Notice, however, the plethora of medical and law/crime shows on TV.

In school, students are practically being told that math and science are not important. Calculators are handed out in 2nd and 3rd grades. Schools have very low requirements of math and science for graduation compared to most of the rest of the world.

My wife is a middle school science teacher and it's appalling how little ability to think logically and to do basic problem solving they have. Forget math.

It may sound like sour grapes, but it really appears that the soft subjects are directing the curriculum and purposely shortchanging science and math at a time when we need it most to compete in the world.

Engineers getting a makeover

John Casapiedra — Tue, 08 May 2007 14:11:34 GMT

I recently retired as an Electrical Engineer. My joy of mathematical proofs is what carried me into engineering. I do not have the words to express the joy I felt at coming up with elegant mathematical proofs; neither do I have to words to express my repugnance at having to sit at the same table with sales and marketing people. I miss the engineering and the math but I do not miss those scumbags and neither do I agree that we engineers need to remake our image to satisfy some vague notion of needing to be like others. We aren't like the others. We are the creators and they are the parasites. It is they who need to change their image.

Sincerely,

John Casapiedra formerly IEEE 40270636

Engineers getting a makeover

K W, Atlanta, GA — Tue, 08 May 2007 14:11:45 GMT

I question the whole premise that a makeover is needed. OK, so people outside the profession see us as geeky. Who cares. Most engineers I know are relatively happy -- i.e., they hate the lawyering field, and don't have to deal with sicknesses and the insurance issues that doctors have.

If movies have given us a poor image as sedentary nerds, you can blame Hollywood. Many of the guys (and women) engineers I know ski, hike, fly, climb, workout, and play various team sports.

Promoting Engineering as 'cool' will flood the schools (and perhaps the profession) with young people who ought to be doing something else for a living. (Like plumbing or nursing.)

Engineers getting a makeover

S. T. Smith, Lake Forest, IL — Tue, 08 May 2007 14:14:19 GMT

There are many myths about engineers, some perpetuated by professors and academics, some by managers and human resources. The truth is, a degree, nor a license, do not an engineer make. As noted by others, an engineer is someone immersed in problem solving, by definition an applied scientist.

I took an unlikely route to engineering, not unlike Homer Hickham. I grew up in a small manufacturing town, worked in a small machine shop and on an assembly line, switched to engineering after getting my Bachelor's in Chemistry. My chosen field was Biomed engineering. My HS math teacher told me point blank that I did not have the skills to be an engineer. 35 years (and 35 patents) later it turns out he was mistaken.

My greatest concern about today's graduates is that many come from an ivory tower. They've not gotten their hands dirty. There is much that is beneath them. That's not the game face an engineer brings to play. Engineering is about getting it done, whatever 'it' is, whether you are creating the first reusable rocket from private funds or figuring out how to keep a plastic bag of stem cells from shattering in liquid nitrogen.

I'll note too that not all engineers are problem solvers, just like not all MD's are surgeons. It is a large family of professions, with room for many skillsets. It is disappointing that the brightest kids aren't finding engineering more attractive. There's more to engineering than DiffEQ and Thermodynamics.

Engineers getting a makeover

An engineer's wife in CA — Tue, 08 May 2007 14:19:44 GMT

If you want an engineering field that has some hipness, look no further than mechanical engineering. My husband is a mechanical engineer, whose day job is designing advanced measuring equipment for the manufacturing of just about anything you can think of, including big screen TVs, assembly line processes, etc. In his spare time, he applies his engineering skills to the motorsports field, where he uses his knowledge to not only compete in ATV racing, but to assist others with technology to help them optimize their race experience. While the stereotype is that engineers are geeky, I think that they are misunderstood as a whole. Sure, my husband is very intelligent in science and mathamatics, but in watching him work on his projects, he is also extremely creative and has to be very social in both his profession and his spare time activities. We strike a good balance, with him being more technically inclined, and me being artistic, and feel our kids are getting the best of both worlds. My kids look up to their dad for his intelligence and integrity, and he has a great way of getting them genuinely excited about what he does for a living, even though many think it's just crunching numbers and dodging deadlines. Having firsthand experience, I'd say engineering is one of the more exciting results-oriented jobs there is!

Engineers getting a makeover

Guy S. Newell — Tue, 08 May 2007 14:20:03 GMT

The solution is at hand. Notice that we're no longer talking about how to attract women or minorities to the engineering profession. The problem has become so acute that we're willing to take the social engineering out of the college admissions and scholarship process and start simply looking for anybody who may have the talent and disposition to become an engineer. The last time I went to my son’s awards assembly, 80% of the awards when to females. My son got the Math Student of the Year award only because he was the only one left in the calculus class at the community college.

Engineers getting a makeover

Chris, Seattle, WA — Tue, 08 May 2007 14:20:28 GMT

There are two things I can think of that would help get more people into the field. First off, our public schools need to get behind the 8-ball in math. Because our country's few math geniuses go into engineering themselves, the level of math teaching in schools in underwhelming to say the least. Which means more pay for the teachers.

Second, I completed a two-year degree in electronics and would love to complete a 4 year degree, but the options are limited. The few schools that do offer engineering night classes are not publicly funded and usually not given the same weight as state schools by employers. No one wants to pay 20-30k for a degree that no one will take seriously.

Engineers getting a makeover

Russell in Maryland — Tue, 08 May 2007 14:31:45 GMT

No one says they don't want to be operated on by a doctor who is too experienced but an engineer who has too much experience can't get hired. If you look around most companies you would be struck by the lack of working engineers over age 50. But I believe engineering is a calling and you should only go into the profession if you love tinkering and creating. I have seen too many people go into engineering for the wrong reason and they end up being poor engineers and not very happy. As far as it being tough -- true but it should be marketed like the Marines, it is tough so you can prove yourself as one of the few. Maybe we need a special beret or even a uniform. I find that Dockers pants seem to be the de facto uniform in many places. Add to that a blue shirt with a logo of gears, lightning bolts, 10101010, etc.

Engineers getting a makeover

Rick Simi Valley, CA — Tue, 08 May 2007 14:45:11 GMT

We provide sales, repair and project consultation in the laser/electro optics area. I can't tell you how many times I've run into engineers (not high level theorists mind you) who are functionally useless. Not enough hands on if you will..too much theory and sterile lab projects. I see this one all of the time: When confronted with a water leak on a water-cooled piece of equipment, I see layers and layers of teflon tape wrapped around a cooling hose. Just use the 8-cent hose gasket next time...

I see engineers who tend to ride their computers more than they do their test bench. After all, if engineering is about bringing ideas to reality, as some have already stated, these individuals took a wrong turn somewhere.

Lastly, I have always believed starting an apprentice-like program for both future and young engineers would be of some benefit. I see this as the best way for an experienced engineer to pass on his (or hers) knowledge. We place too much priority in the US on merely obtaining the piece of paper.

Engineers getting a makeover

Jeff Lussenden — Tue, 08 May 2007 14:58:40 GMT

Why would someone want to become an engineer? Years of brutally tough coursework followed by 60-70 hour workweeks and the constant threat of a layoff?

All for the same or less money you could make as a business major, where you drink your way through college and complain about the engineers that work for you.

In the US, the motivation to become an engineer is because you like a challenge, and consider yourself smart enough to get through it. Lazy and stupid people need not apply. A couple of silly bumper stickers is not going to suddenly draw people to a very difficult career field.

Engineers getting a makeover

Gaurav Goel — Tue, 08 May 2007 15:00:39 GMT

How about paying engineers more? How about valuing their accumulated know-how or providing a modicum of job security?

In the economic madness of viewing labor as a commodity, engineering labor has become just that, a commodity that can be disposed of at will. I submit that engineering today has about the same value to our society as auto mechanics did 50 years ago, and that that value has been diluted in the same manner, or worse.

Parallel to this, the fundamental output of engineering, manufacturing is being eroded in this country as never before. The only reason that cost-cutting decisions based on the labor-is-a-commodity fallacy are economically justifiable, is by ignoring the know-how component that is lost when highly trained, experienced employees are downsized/outsourced/offshored. Our youngsters understand very well that there is no future in learning a profession, when you can be spit out of the system at will, and where your know-how and experience are simply ignored.

Furthermore, our culture simply does not value intellect, relative to wealth, fame, or stardom. For example, what kind of value system explains that a major NCAA basketball coach earns 10-20x the salary of an engineering or science professor?

These are the underlying issues we need to come to terms with, if we want to improve the lot of engineers in our society. We ignore them at our own peril.

Engineers getting a makeover

Stanley Reid — Tue, 08 May 2007 15:02:46 GMT

Dumbing down courses? NEVER if anything they should be more applicable. I am an engineer in trainning, getting my license next year. I had no problem getting a job, there are lots here in Canada. Spokesperson, well let me be one. I frequent classrooms, thru my girlfriend and I try to show kids what engineers do. Which very many people know little about. I became an engineer because my father was and engineer, like his father and his fathers' father. The general public has no idea what an engineer does, if they only knew that we do everything around them. We are the men and women behind the curtain, keeping the public safe from disaster and maintaining the infrastructure of human society and we never ask for recognition. That is what I love about being an engineer, I know that my job is very important I design good roads, strong bridges, tall buildings and perfectly graded parking lots....oh and all the hidden structures below grade. But does anyone ever notice, or even care? Probably not, but that doesn't bother me, I like it better that way. Engineering has never been about showing off, that is why we have architects. We take great pride in our work. I don't want anyone joining my profession because they think it is "sexy", or because they can make allot of money, or even because it is prestigious. I want young engineers to join my profession because they love and understand what we do and have pride in the fact that we sustain and expand society. We have and always will, without the need of a ticker parade. ERTW

Engineers getting a makeover

Disposable asset, Charlotte, NC — Tue, 08 May 2007 15:08:10 GMT

The fact is you need to be pretty smart and hard working to get through engineering school. Analytic thinking is forced on you and you do it. By Junior year, you look at the Business majors who will be your bosses, who only need to solve algebra to get straight A's, who get the girls, and get to party.

You're smart and can solve problems. This one is a snap. You jump into the softer subjects and fly to higher levels. Or, alternately, you go to another difficult profession (law or medicine) where the prestige and money remain commensurate with the effort.

So long as employers and firms consider engineers as glorified, disposable, technicians instead of valuable intellectual assets, the profession will not be able to attract and retain the best and brightest.

The profession is to blame. We've let every rinky-dink Community college and wanna-be University graduate "engineers" who are ill prepared and NOT weeded out when they cannot cut it. As a result, an excellent engineer looks the same to most employers as the cheesy "engineering Technician" from Podunck CC. We've become commodities.

While the Lawyers and Doctors have protected their professions, and limited the number of graduates, we strive to become commonplace. That should be our new motto, "Join the overworked and overlooked".

Engineers getting a makeover

P.E., Seattle, WA — Tue, 08 May 2007 15:17:52 GMT

We don't need to dumb down the coursework. Students who can't pass freshman calculus will only have more and more difficulty in later courses.

If anything, the problem is that students aren't coming into college prepared for the courses. Too much grade inflation and dumbing down of math classes in high school.

Perhaps engineering should just officially be a 5 year program, it already takes 4-1/2 to 5 years for more people anyway. Why not just space it out a bit and lessen the courseload those first two years, so that students actually learn what they're supposed to.

Engineers getting a makeover

Hal Kempthorne, Paso Robles, CA — Tue, 08 May 2007 15:29:39 GMT

Big corporations would love to have more young engineers so that they would be able to hire for less. I am an engineer, son of a medical doctor. I observe that dad had a title and it was difficult to get into medical school and to get out. If an engineer does brilliant work, his company gets the fame and he goes unnoticed.

Engineers getting a makeover

Mike, Colorado Springs, Colorado — Tue, 08 May 2007 15:31:39 GMT

As a EE for a large defense contractor, I don't like the idea of dumbing down the classes. The classes are supposed to be hard. Anything worth doing is hard. Its true that doctors and lawyers make more than engineers, but we don't do so bad. I do spend a lot of time at my desk but I also get to travel to were our system is deployed and do some work.

Engineers getting a makeover

LL, NYC, NY — Tue, 08 May 2007 15:50:02 GMT

I graduated as a Mechanical Engineer and have worked in IT as a Systems Engineer for the last 10 or so years. I disagree with the points that the engineering program should be watered down so students do not get weeded out. I have worked with people who had degrees in music, business and other non-engineering majors. What many of them lack is the ability to analyze a problem and come up with a logical solution. Engineering graduates are able to do this from all the "difficult" courses. I don't think too many engineers actually remember calculus, differential equations, heat transfer, etc. But we all learned how to solve complex problems in a logical and disciplined manner.

Engineers getting a makeover

Eric Chapdelaine, Los Angeles, CA — Tue, 08 May 2007 15:51:32 GMT

I am a mechanical engineer. I went into the engineering field because of my dreams as a youth involving space and helicopters. 13 years after graduation I have learned that there are very few employable engineers that are not super specialized. In order for me to go to work for NASA (my childhood dream) I would have to be very, very good at one finite element of space travel. I would spend years on a single task stuck in a cubicle.

The only engineers that avoid this trap (as I see it) are the ones that are no longer employed as engineers - the CEO's and such mentioned by many people.

I always dreamed that engineering would be a challenging and complicated field that would enable me to grow and learn things until the day I died. The actual, on the ground reality is not that for the majority of engineers.

Like most employees in the US today we are not valued beyond our employee number. True innovation is stymied because the companies we work for own all our original thoughts. The only reward waiting is a potential pay raise. Worst case, after years of loyalty to a company we can easily be downgraded and out sourced.

The best, most capable engineers I have met in my career have been men and women who never went to school, their knowledge is purely experience driven and thus, their solutions are infinitely more achievable than any proposed by PhD engineers who have spent 10 years locked in a library.

I would not recommend the engineering or scientific profession to any children seeking guidance for their future. For those seeking truly challenging jobs that will force you to grow through new knowledge and experience I recommend getting a high school degree - traveling around the world (and your own country) for a time, and then start your own business. Practical experience (i.e. a real world job or two) will be much more useful throughout your career than 5-10 years locked in a University being taught theories by people who have rarely tested them in a practical setting.

Also – if you do go into the engineering field, be warned that people today the world over could care less about how things are made or what innovation went into them. Be prepared for blank looks and a quick change of subject anytime what you do for a living comes up in a social situation.

Engineers getting a makeover

Sean, Torrington CT — Tue, 08 May 2007 15:55:03 GMT

Do NOT dumb down the courses. I am a computer science grad student and the tough courses are valuable for weeding out the losers. The kids who want to make lots of money but don't really 'get it'.

Engineers getting a makeover

JM Kansas — Tue, 08 May 2007 15:58:40 GMT

While I agree that many institutions should review their freshman curriculum, it is a bad idea to "dumb down" an engineering program. Everyone wants to see the doctor who was first in his or her class, not the guy who got by with a C minus average. Nobody would think to make a medical program easier to improve retention and have more "smart" doctors.

Now I ask, what is the difference between a medical doctor and an engineer? When a doctor makes a mistake, his patient may die. When an engineer makes a mistake, say he or she fails to figure for a load in a structure, the structure fails and MANY people may die. Do you want to drive a car, stand in an elevator, fly in a plane, use a power tool, etc, that was designed by someone who got by on an easy curriculum? I know I don't want to trust my life to someone who cannot pass calculus and physics.

Engineering is a tough field. You have to be able do deal with calculus, physics before you can even hope to deal with the higher courses in an engineering program. So I ask this, why not do a better job preparing our children to handle classes like this while they are younger instead of the "dumbed down" courses offered in K-12 now? I have seen some of the tests my grandparents and parents took, and for the rest of the under 30 crowd, trust me it is much harder than most of the stuff I had to do when I was in high school. When we have people graduating high school with 3.85 GPAs who can't make change without a computer, can't multiply 12x12 without a calculator, and can't write above an 8th grade level, I have to ask, what is wrong with society?

As far as adding some sexy to engineering, it is a great idea. I am an engineer, and while I do spend time sitting at my desk crunching number and crunching away at my computer, I enjoy coming to work every day, I have opportunities to travel around the country, do volunteer work in the community, and do to many fun and exciting things related to my job. Most engineering jobs today are far cry from trig tables and slide rules. Engineering today can be much more hands on, exciting and fulfilling than it once was. With careers available from doing anything from helping design fishing tackle, to automobiles, to stereo speaker, to light bulbs and everything in between, there are literally thousands of possible jobs.

Focus this program on the opportunities and don't try to dumb things down. I don't want to purchase a product from an engineer from a dumbed down program any more than I would want to have surgery by a doctor who couldn't pass a basic biology course.

Engineers getting a makeover

Brent Hunsaker, San Diego, CA — Tue, 08 May 2007 16:08:07 GMT

Another factor that influences students not to become engineers is the life of an engineer can be very transitory. To be an engineer you have to accept the fact that projects have a life cycle of two (2) to five (5) years generally. In the life time of an engineer, that engineer will have worked for a minimum of four (4) to as many as 15 employers (I am at seven (7) right now). In many cases an engineer will have to do some very creative stuff to remain employed.

Following the job market where it is at the moment I have moved from one coast to the other. I have also lived in one city and worked in another traveling over 100 miles each way each day (there are some that have had to fly to their work thousands of miles away each Sunday evening and return home that Friday). I have also worked as a contract engineer to keep the income flowing.

Those that choose not to move around following the jobs take jobs to fill in the gaps between engineering jobs/projects. Many just give up and go into something else. If the various engineering associations can address this issue you may just improve student acceptance into engineering improve.

Engineers getting a makeover

Kent, Licking, Missouri — Tue, 08 May 2007 16:14:48 GMT

These are some wonderful comments and thoughts related to the engineering profession and its current status. The majority of which I agree with completely. I especially liked Grant from Texas' thoughts on how engineering is really so much more than mere science, and requires the multi-dimensional talents we associate with what have sometimes been called the "fine arts".

Alas, the facts are we live in an age of visual flash and splash. Our kidlets are swayed by the popular cultures from TV (hence the love of being doctors and lawyers). Making a weekly drama about the life and times of a group of hard working engineers would be a difficult proposition...unless of course the actual "glory" of the profession were overshadowed by lots of "propositions" etc., Face it...Engineers have rarely been know as the guys who get the girls (...or vise versa for the lady engineers among us).

Maybe in our Hollywood world, something can be done to highlight the engineering skills needed to realize the visions of our popular entertainment. Peter Jackson brought Middle Earth to life...but only with the creative talents and assistance of some very very bright engineers (who can justly be called artists as well)

Engineers getting a makeover

Em New York — Tue, 08 May 2007 16:34:43 GMT

Engineering is the best career in the world, until you get laid off. The profession is far too cyclical, and outsourcing to India isn't making things better. As an example, practically all of the top-notch Optical people I used to work with at Bellcore are in other fields now, despite that being ground zero for optical networking in the 1990s.

Engineers getting a makeover

Carrie M, Clemson, SC — Tue, 08 May 2007 16:37:50 GMT

I agree that dumbing down the courses would be a big mistake! Imagine dumbing down courses for the doctors who operate and diagnose...who would agree to that?!?

Instead, how about promoting knowledge of the diverse career opportunities an engineering degree can offer? Most people are vaguely familiar with mechanical, civil, and electrical, but I'd bet 90% of the population doesn't have a clue what an Industrial Engineer is capable of pursuing, including the companies that hire them (speaking from experience here ;)).And how about Biosystems, Materials, etc etc....

As for role models in a marketing campaign, I would pick your average practicing engineers in a range of fields as my spokesmen. These men and women would be easier to relate to, current with today's opportunities and goings-on, and show students the real opportunities available to them today.

I graduated in 2003 from Clemson University (go tigers!) in Industrial Engineering, passed the PE exam, and went on to graduate with a Masters in Indurstrial Management. I started my current job as a Process Planning Engineer by applying for a position that was looking for a Mechanical (but fit PERFECTLY with IE background), and was the first woman to be hired as an engineer at this location. And I still am.

Engineers getting a makeover

Jennifer, Louisville, KY — Tue, 08 May 2007 16:43:39 GMT

I think part of the reason Engineering gets ranked so low is because students/kids don't know exactly what it is. Doctors, Lawyers, Teachers.... everyone knows what they do or have a general idea of what they do. But Engineering is somewhat vague and it is a very broad category. I think once it is broken down, Electrical, Mechanical, Civil, Industrial, Chemical, etc... it becomes a lot easier to explain and therefore becomes more appealing.

My father was an engineer and for years I didn't know what he did (yes, even I thought it had something to do with trains!). But as I got older he explained to me what he did (electrical engineering) and it helped me to understand engineering as a whole and helped me to pick Mechanical Engineering as my major in college.

I think if there is a way to demystify engineering that would help.

Engineers getting a makeover

Tue, 08 May 2007 16:46:35 GMT

I am an Engineer...well, Project Manager and Sr. Designer of automated high speed machinery and I also have a 12 year old son. I don't want him doing this for a living...to mush stress, no thanks or respect, not enough money, and to much overtime because there is never enougt time to complete the project on schedule. I do it because it's what I get paid to do so I can live as I really am. As far as the courses go...you don't need all the math and other garbage like in the old days when everything was done with pencils, angles and "T" squares. Todays computers are the best tools for engineering...It's like playing a video game...

Engineers getting a makeover

Robin Rock Island, IL — Tue, 08 May 2007 16:57:18 GMT

What I have found as a woman with a B.S. and M.S. in engineering and 20 years experience, is that the profession is not nearly as "flexible" in work/life balance as I have seen in other professional fields. I would like to see the a new "mindset" given to creation of job opportunities that say to young people "hey you can be an engineer and have a life too". The work place should create jobs that are marketed as "30 hours per week" or "summer off" without that intense negotiation I've had to submit to when my children were born.

Is it because we engineers are so intense and focused that we have learned to sacrifice a little life along the way to stay on our respected path of problem solving? Is that what the kids are seeing?

Back to answer the first question: Let's pick President Jimmy Carter. He was the only President with an engineering degree.

Engineers getting a makeover

Tue, 08 May 2007 16:58:51 GMT

I am a female engineer at a top-notch defense firm, and even though I only graduated two years ago, I keep receiving many offers from excellent firms.

I never even considered a career in engineering in high school. When I was a freshman at a very expensive school, I just couldn't bring myself to major in English or communications and expect to make money, and be challenged. I fell back to Mechanical Engineering, and just coasted through. I always excelled at Math and Science, particularly Physics, but was never encouraged. This should change.

As well, college grads want to work for the Googles and the Apples...you're not going to find many companies for Chemical and Mechanical engineers expecting the same kind of work atmosphere. That has to change - the Lockheeds and Northrops and Boeings all need to embrace radical change to start retaining their work force, and bringing more creativity and enthusiasm to the profession.

Engineers getting a makeover

JoeBlow, San Diego CA — Tue, 08 May 2007 17:01:04 GMT

As an engineering student, I can say that the sterotypes hold true for a majority. I don't like most of my peers; they're smelly, nerdy, and they don't do anything but study/play videogames at home. It does not make me thrilled about what the work environment will be like when I get a real job.

The biggest issue I see, however, is in the liscensing requirement. We are constantly told that Aerospace Engineers are needed. The average age is 55 years old according to Aviation Weekly, and at least one story on MSNBC has cited a loss of 100,000 engineers this year that cannot be replaced. However, the society that liscenses engineers has decided that requirements are not stringent enough. Starting in 2011, a bachelor's degree is not good enough to take the exam for possible certification as a Professional Engineer. A prospective engineer needs to have 30 graduate level units in addition to years of real experience. There is a huge disconnect between those that want to keep the profession elitist, and what is needed in our growing need for technical number crunchers.

Engineers getting a makeover

An Electrical Engineer, Houston, TX — Tue, 08 May 2007 17:10:08 GMT

Engineers are mostly corporate worker-bees who will never be well paid or well rewarded. They don't have a strong professional organization like Bar Associations or the AMA to see that they are paid in accordance with their hard studies and work. Corporations use engineers like light bulbs. If they burn one out, they just dump her/him in the trash and screw in another. The only hope for engineers is that their profession ultimately becomes so undesirable that few graduate, and the supply and demand imballance causes their pay to increase. This is probably slowly happening, but engineers still have little hope of ever being really successful like a rich trial lawyer or a doctor. Bill Gates is not an engineer. He's a college dropout who made a fortune by marketing the hard work of engineers. In the end, the only reason corporations want more engineers is so they can work them harder and pay them less. I've been an engineer for 30 years and I would never advise a young person to go into this field. As the old joke goes, don't tell my mother I'm an engineer, she thinks I'm a piano player in a house of ill repute and I wouldn't want her to be dissapointed.

Engineers getting a makeover

Marcus, IL (EE) — Tue, 08 May 2007 17:13:26 GMT

I agree with Jason on the course aspect of this problem. Making classes less difficult will do the nation no good in the long run - we wanted more engineers, right? If they can't do engineering they arent really engineers.

The problem is that engineering is a cold science. In my experience most people don't see how this really effects the softer side of human existance. A doctor saves lives - that has a visible significant impact. But the connection between engineering and everyday life, and how much it really helps us is more convoluted. I think that when this becomes more clear to people, then it will be easier to attract more students to engineering.

Engineers getting a makeover

Jason, Mechanical Engineer — Tue, 08 May 2007 17:15:57 GMT

Engineers definitely do not get paid what they're worth. Virtually everything you come into contact with everyday was designed by an engineer. Technology would not be where it is today without engineers. Microwaves wouldn't exist to help make dinner in a fraction of the time, air conditioning wouldn't be able to cool us during the hot summer months, TV and video games wouldn't stimulate our minds and imaginations. And sure doctors get the credit for saving someone's life, but the guy in the lab who created the life-saving device might only get a pat on the back from his boss (don't get me wrong, doctor's should be rewarded for the risky work they do).
The point is, engineers are an extremely vital component of human civilization, yet the emphasis for this is not there. I'm glad though, that some things are finally being done to focus more attention on the importance of engineering. But I think a key component to sparking potential engineers interests......is to increase the pay rate of engineers.

And while I'm at it, we need to do the same thing for teachers. Without teachers, engineers would have nowhere to begin. Without teachers, the youth of the world would be doomed, along with the advancement of the human race.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for all teachers.

Engineers getting a makeover

Mitch, New York, NY — Tue, 08 May 2007 17:29:43 GMT

As an undergraduate Industrial Engineer who returned to business school and now works on Wall Street in finance, I feel I have a unique perspective on the situation.

If you are a relatively introverted person who likes tinkering with things and is comfortable hitting a salary ceiling about 6-8 years out of college, engineering could be the career for you. I found that the rigorous academic background is excellent but when applying to graduate school, the grade hit I took for being an engineer was not worth the superior education. I did extremely well on the GMAT, which I attribute to the rigorous education, but found myself having to explain why my grades weren't as good those of people with less challenging majors.

I would council a bright, well adjusted high school student to choose a major that they enjoy that has an analytical component but also, just as importantly, focuses on communications skills such as grammar, structured writing, speaking and presentations. I was a very successful engineer in large part due my ability to write design documents that logically explained problems and then offered solutions to the problems.

With this degree, they will be in good shape to apply to business or law school. These fields do not have salary caps like most engineering jobs do. Just look at what hedge fund managers or partners at law firms make and compare that to what a seasoned PE makes. There really is no comparison.

In addition, as an engineer, you will be competing with the cream of the crop of over a billion Chinese and another billion Indians. I would prefer to be one of their divorce attorneys and take a good amount of their life savings rather than have to slowly accumulate it over a lifetime as an engineer.

Engineers getting a makeover

Does it matter? — Tue, 08 May 2007 17:39:48 GMT

Perhaps nobody wants to be an engineer anymore because of the high rate of good, experienced engineers being laid off, cast aside and outsourced. I'm an engineer...have been for 20+ years, and I would tell my kids to never, ever enter this line of work. Engineer in the modern workforce is akin to being "well-educated cannon fodder".

Engineers getting a makeover

Mike, Beaumont, Texas — Tue, 08 May 2007 17:39:53 GMT

What if we looked no further than Europe and studied people's attitudes toward technical education there? How about if college admissions and scholarships were more based on intelectual and academic achievement and less on an individual's ability to throw a high velocity curved ball? That is the European way. How about if status and prestige in high school were a little more balanced in favor of the "geeks"? This would also be the European way. What if schools and government reached out to Parents to explain to them that if a child prefers reading and science experiments to slugging balls with a piece of wood, there is nothing wrong with that child, quite the contrary? Again - the European way. There is currently a nationwide campaign in the US about attracting students to the engineering profession. Apparently the nation is running out of engineers and scientists. If we want to stay on the acumen of science and technology and be able to maintain our strategic strength in the world, this should become a problem of national policy, not to be left just to the professional organizations and their marketing campaigns. Would it be thinkable - for example - to subsidize technical education, like all other developed nations have done and are still doing it? I know this would fly in the face of the Chicago School of Economics free market, supply side theories, but it's not the Economists who build the infrastructure and the weaponry - it's the Engineers.

Engineers getting a makeover

Hoping to see retirement without a career change, US — Tue, 08 May 2007 17:40:11 GMT

As an engineer, I have heard this discussion off and on for about 10 years. It's now a source of grim amusement. The CEO's will periodically give speeches on the importance of engineering to our country's future. They will talk up the good side of engineering (the creative freedom, the sense of accomplishment) in order to attract bright students. The next day they will lay off their engineers and outsource the jobs.

At my own company, the “powers that be” decided to start an Indian engineering division. It turns out the India engineers were nowhere near as efficient as American Engineers – and the engineering managers reported that. The message from above was “They only have to be 40% efficient and it's a cost savings”. Doesn't matter that the designs are poor – just that the CEO can report a short term gain and boost the stock price before he exercises his options.

Bright students aren't avoiding Engineering because it lacks glamour, they are avoiding it because its future is grim.

Engineers getting a makeover

James Summey, Raleigh, NC — Tue, 08 May 2007 17:45:18 GMT

Engineering by nature is a difficult thing to market. The field is wide with an almost infinite variety of professions an engineering grad could obtain. Many go on into law (i.e. patent law) and many others into the medical profession (those that are bio-medical engineers). I will be graduating from North Carolina State University this weekend with a BS in Mechanical Engineering. The reason I entered this field is that is offers a wide range of job opportunities. With a ME degree it is possible to work in nearly every field imaginable, from HVAC to aviation, even in the medical field.

Of course the degree was not an easy one to obtain. I could have easily chosen a different field to study. Yet this is what engineering is about, it is not easy nor should it be. The various writers above are right when they say that they don’t want someone who couldn’t get through the work load, designing their bridges or cars. Engineering is about thinking of all the possibilities and taking these into account in the design. Assumptions are absolutely necessary as well. For instance, you wouldn’t design a car to protect someone going 150 mph from a head on collision just because there is a chance that they might drive that fast. This is the perpetual conundrum that engineers face and is what makes their jobs so difficult. Hence, one does not want someone that couldn’t think of the possibility that the engineering degree might be difficult, time consuming and highly competitive as an engineer.

As for marketing of the field, I would suggest a focus on the fact that engineers can and many times do, make a difference in this world. I will admit that many times there is no glory with what we do and we are often underappreciated by society. Yet I have found ways to make a difference and more importantly I feel good about myself as I have accomplished these things. I helped to start an organization here on campus called Engineers without Borders. We are part of a much larger international organization that uses the now how and philanthropic nature of many different types of engineers and people in other fields to solve the various problems that our world faces. My involvement with this organization has been enlightening to say the least and has provided me with inspiration when times were difficult.

Engineers getting a makeover

SAM, Chicago, IL — Tue, 08 May 2007 17:45:48 GMT

I'm glad this issue is getting more attention lately. Working in product development consulting over the past 10 years, I've worked on many fun projects and have enjoyed the challenges and successes. The monetary rewards however, have only been average, and job security practically nonexistent. At this point I don't know that I could recommend the profession to anyone looking to make above average wages; but I would recommend it to someone looking for enjoyable work.

As to why the profession's monetary reward suffers, it may be due to the lack of communication skills taught within the standard engineering curriculum. The coworkers I see climbing the ladder are typically the "talkers" who are comfortable leading project teams. Perhaps that is one solution to this problem: add more marketing and communication requirements to the curriculums. Or perhaps create an alternate path that would reduce the technical skill requirements and increase the communication skill requirements for engineers looking to do more program management.

I wouldn't want the weed-out courses removed from curricula, because those those academically savvy students who aspire to become the brainpower of a project team would suffer. A good team needs both brainpower and eloquent leadership to be successful. Although there is no reason one person can't be both. I had a professor in college who suggested I present a senior project to an ASME conference to go from a B to an A in a course. His reasoning: if you are the smartest engineering in the world, but can't tell anyone what you know, what value do your bring to the table?

The issue of dwindling engineering enrollments will need to be solved quickly. Otherwise the US's already dwindling manufacturing and R&D base will move overseas. When our allies greatly surpass us in the area of manufacturing and R&D, what is to stop them from inventing the next great technology? What if that technology removes their need to form alliances to achieve their goals, or worse yet - impose their will. Engineering knowledge truly is power.

Engineers getting a makeover

Joe Watson, Montgomery, Alabama — Tue, 08 May 2007 17:51:56 GMT

Dummying the programs down, are you kidding? I am an engineer in a city of few degreed engineers but it seems like everyone I talk to is an 'engineer." The term is very popular these days. What would happen to a person if they began calling themselves doctor or barrister? Maybe there should be repercussions for people who call themselves engineers. The profession needs to be brought up socially such as those of physicians.

There certainly is the persona of being a geek if one is an engineer. But there is another persona as well, one of intelligence. I was asked to speak to a fourth grade class on career day. I was worried about being boring. I spoke of my times as an engineer on the military program called in those days Star Wars. To my surprise the teacher contacted me and said my presentation was the most exciting of all. She invited me back for several years running.

I beg to disagree with the writer that said few engineers are on the cutting edge. I have been a military contractor engineer for 18 years. Almost every job I have had has been cutting edge. Just look to the military.

I personally believe the profession needs two things. One is as stated in the first paragraph to being the field up socially where one is as proud of being an engineer as being a physician. Secondly is to bring the salary range up as well. I make low six figures, but can practically double that by going into sales instead of engineering. The second recommendation will also help the first.

I make a good living and do have the self-esteem of being an engineer (see second sentence of second paragraph.) Keep the programs in the Universities hard, no pain, no gain. Appreciate your engineer. Most actually do have very keen senses of humor and will love to help you solve problems.

Engineers getting a makeover

steve, binghamton, ny — Tue, 08 May 2007 18:08:04 GMT

I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned the trap of over-simplification. There is no such thing as an "engineer", but instead a whole host of disciplines: aeronautical, biomedical, chemical, civil, computer, electrical, environmental, industrial, mechanical, traffic, and more. They have nothing in common except the approach of applying scientific principles to solving real world problems. And the high school student we are trying to sell on the profession has probably never heard of any of these disciplines (unlike medicine, where by that age they know there are pediatricians and allergists and surgeons and dad goes to the heart specialist...).

Trying to match a student's talents and interests to a specific niche in the wonderful world of engineering is a much more daunting task. It is what career guidance is supposed to be about, but we all know how understaffed schools are in that field. In the end, we'll rely on the engineering professional societies creating and running volunteer mentoring programs to each find their own replacements.

Engineers getting a makeover

Mo, Mile High City — Tue, 08 May 2007 18:09:13 GMT

As an Mechanical engineering student with two finals later today, I have to say dumbing things down a bit might enlarge the pool of prospective engineers but would definately make that pool a bit shallower. Remember, the first rule of thermodynamics is you do not talk about thermodynamics!

Engineers getting a makeover

PM, San Diego, CA — Tue, 08 May 2007 18:12:12 GMT

I have been in the engineering profession for over 10 years now. I must admit that I don’t agree with Ms. Jenniches statement that engineering work is as important as a doctor’s because those are two completely different ball parks. A person can’t live without a heart, but a person can live without a car.

For the most part, engineering is a very mundane, repetitive, and thankless job. Its like any other job a person does. You sit at a desk all day, stare at a computer and depending on what type of engineer you are, you might be lucky and be out in the “field”. All engineers do these days is build piles of paper and that is slowly going the way of the dinosaur as more companies try to go paperless. Sometimes you will get to see the fruits of your labor when a part is delivered but other than that you see it through the computer screen. Knowing what I know now, I would have majored in something else. The romantic days of engineering have been replaced by bureaucracy and managers trying to make as much money as they can.

Kids want to have exciting jobs, see the world and make good money. Not that you can’t make a decent living as an engineer, but you can make more as an accountant, marketing exec and those are easier majors to study. I don’t think classes should be “dumbed” down, but to be honest, not once have I used calculus or pretty much anything that I studied in college while in the industry. You receive your diploma from college and your education from work.

Engineering more or less chooses you, you don’t choose it, it's just something that is in you naturally. So good luck with the recruiting, more power to them.

Engineers getting a makeover

Jack Smythers, Alpharetta, Georgia. — Tue, 08 May 2007 18:15:40 GMT

Minorities we already have in engineering. Lots, and lots of Asians and Indians so there is no issue here. As far as women are concerned, 90% of the engineers at the telecommunications company I work at are still guys.

The big question is "how do you get girls to develop a liking for taking things apart or to tinker with how gadgets work"?. I don't know too many girls or women who want to check under the hood of a car, or want to take their iPods or computers apart. But I do know one or two.

Engineers getting a makeover

Fred, Wisc — Tue, 08 May 2007 18:19:32 GMT

I am an engr (class of 67) and agree with Jeff in FLA above. The big problem with engineering is age bias in business. As one approaches age 50 business puts a big target on you - they would much rather force you out and go back and hire a new grad for much less money. Basically engr is one of the few professions that makes one LESS employable as the years of experience increase. There is NO shortage of engineers in this country - just a shortage of jobs for them.

Business is so determined to "outsource" everything that this profession is very limited. I've worked in an engineering capacity for 40 years, and everyone i've ever worked with or for has been forced out of his job before the age of 60! And it's a long list.

I have two sons and actively discouraged them from becoming an engr - one listened - but hey, 1 for 2 isn't bad in that category

Engineers getting a makeover

Jim, Fort Worth, TX — Tue, 08 May 2007 18:20:30 GMT

Engineering is definitely not a flashy profession. It is about understanding the world around you and wanting to improve it. Take a look around and see what is near by and then think about that same object 10 or 20 years ago. Was it even in existence? If so, what was it like. How many of us had Ipods or cell phones as kids. How about cars that park themselves, or helicopters that can also transform into planes. I have a BSME from Penn State and I can't understand why today's youths are so against wanting to become engineers. They want all of the fancy technology, but it doesn't just appear out of nowhere. Sure, it is a tough major to take up, but you don't want someone with a business degree designing a helicopter or a piece of highly delicate surgical equipment, do you?

There needs to be more people, engineers, out there that are willing to get into our schools and inform students what a great career engineering can be. I have given talks at my son's school about engineering and also taken students on a tour of one of my companies facilities in order to expose them to what enginners get to do.

This profession is not about being the most well known person in the news. It is about designing products that keep our friends, families, soliders, and everyone who touches or uses the product safe. It is about taking a good thing and making it better and easier to use. It is about understanding how something works and the physics behind it. For me it is all of these things plus the ability of being able to look up as a particular helicopter flies over and say "I did that."

Engineers getting a makeover

Spouse of a Workaholic, Northern VA — Tue, 08 May 2007 18:35:57 GMT

Let me get this straight: I'll take all the hardest classes in college getting high enough grades to graduate and pass an exam, then I'll enter a job market that primarily consists of "contracts" and short-term assignments, maybe at some point landing a permanent position that pays significantly less than my education and experience warrant, to spend all of my waking hours on the job hoping to see my family on the weekends, until I'm so burned out that the company feels I'm "just not keeping up with the workload" and downsizes me, but I can always find a contract job paying a ton of money except that it's located someplace I've never even heard of...

Thanks, but I think I'll teach kindergarten.

Engineers getting a makeover

LV — Tue, 08 May 2007 18:36:34 GMT

Both of my parents are engineers, and I (a non-engineer) went to a school known for its engineering program. Here's why women aren't getting more into engineering: sexism is still rampant. My mother faced a horrible boss and even had to put up with a male colleague who, new to the company and not really having interacted with Mom at all, walked into a room where she was sitting with friendly colleagues and took a swing at her face. If that wasn't bad enough, one of my college roommates faced a professor who, in class, said "All of you women should go over to the Biology Department where you belong." Why join a profession where that attitude is still prevalent and such behavior is allowed? Women have had to fight tooth and nail to "belong" in every single profession, and for the time being we're tired. We need a rest. More importantly, men must wake up and realize that we women can be competent in any profession we choose to enter. We shouldn't have to prove that over and over in each separate professional field.

Engineers getting a makeover

Josh Smith, Columbia, MD — Tue, 08 May 2007 18:41:48 GMT

Many engineering programs are too cookie-cutter and give young students the mistaken notion they need to be experts in everything technical in order to succeed in a particular specialty of interest. For people who want to be bridge designers, the diffEQ's and structural dynamics courses shouldn't be "dumbed down". But to require or imply the necessity of the same level of competency in such subjects of someone who could do a very good job planning and designing roads and water distribution systems is a disservice to the profession and will only drive more prospective young engineers away to other professions where the preparation is more rational.

I'm a transportation engineer who almost switched to computer science, graphic design, or (yes, ick) journalism because the courses were so gruelling and often so unrelated to what I'm doing now. Granted, there's some value in buckling down and getting through something difficult for the sake of perserverance, but the cost of this is too great in terms of how many potential good engineers are made to feel inadequate.

A key improvement would be engineering curricula that offer fewer "core" math and science required courses and more engineering electives. Hand-in-hand with this should be more specialized professional engineering certifications that require a person to become very competent in what they intend to do for a living and still give them the opportunity to become well rounded in other specialties without requiring a high level of competency in subjects that they (and many of their potential employers) do not find all that useful anyway.

The academics in our field don't generally don't do a good enough job of touting the great variety of skill sets that can make one very marketable as an engineer. Talents for writing, drafting, and/or public speaking along with basic competency in math and science can make one very successful in engineering.

Engineers getting a makeover

Burned out in Silicon Valley, San Jose, CA — Tue, 08 May 2007 18:47:59 GMT

My husband and I are both engineers, each with over 20 years experience. During our career, we have seen engineering jobs disappear left and right to those overseas. It's just a matter of time before our jobs disappear. Why bother spending years earning advanced degrees, only to be laid off in favor of foreign engineers who are (likely) less experienced, but happy to earn one-quarter of our salaries? We will do our best to steer our middle-school age son away from engineering...

Engineers getting a makeover

A Concerned PE — Tue, 08 May 2007 19:14:34 GMT

The root of the problem with engineering is the salary that accompanies it. Society does not appreciate, respect, or recognize engineering and what it has accomplished. The difference in the amount of education for an engineer versus a doctor or lawyer in no way should reflect in the salaries in which they earn. How many people put their lives in the hands of an engineer on a daily basis versus the hands of a doctor or lawyer?

Did you use a cell phone today? Travel on a road? Work in an office? Use electricity? Turn on the heat or air conditioning? Travel by airplane, railroad, or boat? Engineers have had an impact on EVERYTHING anyone does day to day. Yet we are widely under-appreciated and under-respected when compared to other professions such as doctors and lawyers.

The engineering profession has needed to stand up and demand more pay to reflect the importance the profession has in society. Better pay will initiate a change in the attitude toward engineers and allow us to recruit those that might go into other professional or technical careers.

Engineers getting a makeover

Nathan, Hampton VA — Tue, 08 May 2007 19:15:36 GMT

I whole heartedly disagree with dumbing down course loads. The great thing about the degree is that once you are through you think differently. You have survived the mental boot camp of mental boot camps. Even if a graduated engineer doesn't remember everything they once knew he/she can quickly pick it back up, because they have trained themself to think during the years of intense thinking as an undergrad.

I make pretty good money (enough to buy my own house) and my degree (Electrical Eng) carries prestige everywhere I go. I personally, do not see the problem with the degree's image. I have yet to say someone, "I'm an engineer." And have them respond with, "Awe, that sucks."

I nominate Claude Shannon, if I can nominate someone who is deceased.

Engineers getting a makeover

Dan, Denver, CO — Tue, 08 May 2007 19:16:34 GMT

I got my degree in Civil/Environmental and was in the profession for about 6 years before I got out. My graduating classmates who received easier degrees in Business and Marketing were making more money than me and getting taken care of. The engineers on the other hand weren't making the money I expected to, got almost no respect and were put in a corner to toil all day. We were a commodity. I left my profession, I'm making more money, getting taken care of and will never return.

Engineers getting a makeover

Marlee Brown, Cleveland, OH — Tue, 08 May 2007 19:34:46 GMT

I don't know about who would make for a good engineering role model (although my favorite suggestion so far is Buckaroo Bonzai) but what I do know is that the problem with the face of engineering can be seen by looking at the couple of websites referenced in this article.

"Engineer Girl"??? please. Not only is it not 'sexy' it's also not very interesting or even a good example of a website. How is anyone going to believe that engineers are behind the coolest gadgets in the world if that's the best they can come up with. As a former teenage girl who became an engineer I must say that I may have reconsidered my major had I seen that site.

"Try Engineering" is a resource for kids? It certainly doesn't look like it. I put my 11-year old son down in front of it (who happens to be really interested in science) and he was bored in approximately 11.2 seconds.

The rest aren't any better.

My suggestion: 1.) stop looking for a spokesperson and create one, 2.) rent a copy of "Real Genius", 3.) stop putting engineers in charge of PR, and 4.) hire a better web dev firm

Engineers getting a makeover

Sheri, San Diego, CA — Tue, 08 May 2007 19:48:06 GMT

I didn't know I need a makeover; I think I look just fine!

Engineers getting a makeover

LM, Chicago, IL — Tue, 08 May 2007 20:18:16 GMT

I think being that being an engineer is losing its appeal on the economic side. I mean there are so many more careers out there that will pay better for an engineer.

There should be more PR on Engineering as a career of possibilities in the realm of business, innovation and entrepreneurship.

I believe this will make Engineering more enticing to young kids.

Engineers getting a makeover

Vandal in Alaska — Tue, 08 May 2007 20:40:04 GMT

I graduated from U of Idaho with a chemical engineering degree a couple of years ago with class of 14. We started out in freshman year with 150 people. I keep seeing that doctors and lawyers are mentioned as being more prestigious than engineers. One of my fellow graduates went to med school to be a surgeon (heard from him later that med school was a cake walk after getting a ChE). I almost decided to go to law school in order to be a patent attorney (starting salary around $150,000/yr and up). Engineering does not have to be the final step. The degree itself teaches you how to teach yourself, efficiency, perform under pressure, analyze and approach problems. Many professions require these vital skills.

In the end I was hired as a process engineer at a consultant firm. I was lucky to have a supervisor that is actually interested in developing my skills so that I will be able to advance instead of only having me crank out calculations. I guess what it boils down to in my opinion is: How many doctors or lawyers get to have their hands in the design of several projects (or the equivalent for their profession) costing $10-$80 million within their first year out of school?

Engineers getting a makeover

KJ, Ohio — Tue, 08 May 2007 20:48:47 GMT

I am a female Mechanical Engineer, and I am still in my twenties...so I'm not too far removed from this generation of teens. (It also helps that I've been a youth counselor at my church for several years.)

What the engineering profession needs is a spokesperson with a young fresh face that will appeal to middle school and high school kids. Consider what Rachael Ray has done for the world of cooking. My neighbor's kid, who is in the 6th grade, loves watching Rachael Ray and wants to be a Chef. I doubt she would feel the same after hours of watching Julia Child. Sorry folks, but Bill Gates, Neil Armstrong, Homer Hickam and the like may be great role models, but they won't appeal to most teenagers. Bill Nye comes closer, but he still has that "geek" factor we are trying to get away from. They need to find young, hot, smart engineers with lots of personality that look like the kind of people you would see on MTV. It may be superficial, but it's what works with this generation.

Consider the show CSI: Crime Scene Investigation. This show is made up of a mostly 20-something good looking cast. Enrollment in Forensic programs at colleges have exploded over the last several years. CSI has glamorized the world of forensics, but have you actually seen any real forensic scientists? They look just like us engineers. Not glamorous.

Engineers getting a makeover

Tracy, Fort Worth, Texas — Tue, 08 May 2007 21:17:58 GMT

If people believe engineers are geeks perhaps it has to do with the cliches that are drug out every time the profession is mentioned. Slide rules and pocket protectors?! Please ... I haven't seen either of them being used by a practicing engineer in my 20 years in the profession.

And the notion that engineering is primarily about building bridges or computers is a false one. There are far more mechanical engineers out there than civil engineers, electrical engineers or computer engineers. There are also chemical engineers, petroleum engineers, mining engineers, materials engineers, aerospace engineers, etc. Based on the comments made above ... we are apparently far better paid as well!

Why are Bill Gates and Steve Jobs being put forth as "engineering role models"? Neither is an engineer ... they are computer programmers! Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak is the real deal, though.

Neil Armstrong, astronaut and first human to walk on the moon ... engineer. Kevin Olmstead, world-record game-show payoff winner ... chemical / environmental engineer.

Off the top of my head, other "famous" engineers include John von Neumann ... Henry Ford ... Robert Goddard ... Leonardo DaVinci ... Thomas Edison ... Alexander Graham Bell ... Guglielmo Marconi ... Admiral Grace Murray Hopper ... Elijah McCoy (the real McCoy) ... Eli Whitney ... Linus Pauling ... William Hewlett & David Packer ... Seymour Cray ... astronaut Bonnie Dunbar ... astronaut Judith Resnik ... astronaut Mae Jemison ... Martin Perl ... Lee Iacocca ... Jack Welsh ... Elsie McGill ...

I went to school with more than a few people who switched from engineering majors to business management. And I make more money than all of them!

Engineers getting a makeover

Graying PE, Somewhere in NC — Tue, 08 May 2007 21:24:23 GMT

Every few years, one engineering society or another attempts to improve the image and appeal of profession. Good luck with that. Again.

I'm a licensed Professional Engineer in several states with over 3 decades experience in the power industry. I have few fond memories of my time in engineering school, and a lot of the career since then has been two gorillas on my back named "short project schedule" and "limited budget". (okay, that's not fair to gorillas.)

Fresh-out-of-school engineering salaries are highly touted, but it eventually levels off while other professionals continue to gain prosperity. Even though I'm generally recognized at being very good at what I do, my best financial year was 15 years past and I've about given up on making a salary "commensurate with experience" anymore. Yet, I still have to pay bills and college tuition for the kids, so I trudge on. Based on what they've seen of my life (or lack thereof) the offspring are not going to be engineers and I don't blame them.

There were a lot of other things I had hoped to do along the way, but an engineering career demands your all, so a "flexible lifestyle" has been hard to come by. Once upon a time, I gave career talks to school kids during Engineers Week campaigns, but I can no longer do this with a true heart. It's difficult course work and it's no way to get rich or famous. What middle school kid wants to hear that?

In my childhood, I went to school with a kid who later started a trucking business while I struggled through college for that BSEE. Of the two of us, he's the one that's rich and famous now. It's kinda too late for me, but do what you really love, not what others think you should do.

(Not all hope is lost though. I play the lottery every week.)

Engineers getting a makeover

Loose cannon on deck, Los Angeles, CA — Tue, 08 May 2007 22:03:29 GMT

I have always prided myself in "Breaking The Stereotype" that people have of engineers. After almost 8 years of University, 5 years in aerospace and 5 years in the power industry I can't say this proffession is either dull or underpaid. Mechanical Engineering gives a person the best of all worlds in my humble opinion: You learn to analyze and fix just about anything. You learn how to soup up just about anything (My 3 year old's elecric car is a great example)And best of all, I have had the pleasure of building awesome devices, blowing them up, figuring out what went wrong and then doing it all over again!

Mechanical engineering goes way beyond that though, the field involves physics, electrical theory, materials knowledge, Computer knowledge, programming, plc's, pneumatics, hydraulics, you name it.

For the motivated engineer it is a very rewarding profession, with great rewards and yes a great salary.

Not all Doctors and Lawyers make great money, it depends on how good they are for one and how motivated they are to go the whole nine yards, beyond that to become an established lawyer or doctor it takes years and years of gruntwork and underpaid overtime. This is no different for an engineer, long time in school, long time to prove yourself in the field, then you need to publish a few articles, attend seminars, speak at seminars. In short you need to make something of yourself.

But.... if the drive is there, and the hours are put in. Fame and yes, I dare say it, fortune are definetely amongst the possiblilties. Just look at the very long list of famous engineers mentioned in all the previous responses. Btw, my favourite engineers are still Tesla and McGyver.

Lastly, it's all about having fun in what you do. if you don't believe in "the cause" then go be a Dr. or a Lawyer or, heaven forbid, a liberal arts student.

Engineers getting a makeover

LBL — Tue, 08 May 2007 22:13:36 GMT

How is it that engineering have reached the current historically low status? Yet other professions of similar age mostly managed to maintain their status. Well, engineers design and build things. For the decades after WW2 US engineers have build amazing things, their products and other achievements were the envy of the world. You'd figure that business should continue to value engineering highly as a result. But there's a deep flaw in US business mindset. Some 20 years ago when developed countries like Japan, W Europe, even Taiwan began to catch up. US businessmen, instead of investing and competing, find it easier and cheaper to simply buy other people's products. The result is loss of entire industries. The repercussions are downgrade of engineering in schools to cookbook courses, loss of jobs and career, lowering of standard and pay. Younger people, facing this reality, simply moves on to other professions to make a living, thus feeding the destruction. Witness the deep wounds US business leaders short-term quick-buck practice inflicted onto such engineering-heavy industries as aerospace, ground transportation (rail, ships, auto), consumer and industrial electronics. Today's young people walks into Best Buy and all they can do is to be amazed by all those cool gears on display, 99% of which are developed, designed, engineered and manufactured in Asian countries. Foreign engineers are in charge, and get paid well. Their businessmen do value engineering greatly, and have every intention to maintain engineering excellence no matter what. Our's are reduced to glorifying importing other people stuffs and call it supply chain, hiring a bunch of big box floor walkers and call them sales consultants.

The most important reason for the decline of engineering in the US is a fatal flaw in the fundamentals of business value proposition and practice. Blame it on 25 years of business school teaching the wrong things and produce a generation of people who think Wall Street value-maximization is the ONLY thing.

Engineers getting a makeover

Jack Garvey, Princeton, NJ — Tue, 08 May 2007 22:49:29 GMT

Engineering is a great foundational education for today's society. And, it's not limiting -- quite the contrary -- I am a chemical engineer who went back to school to become an attorney. This combination has prepared me extremely well to work in a world that is both highly technical, and highly regulated. I can bridge concepts where often, the perspective is highly parochial. Fellow engineer friends of mine are empoloyed in sales, marketing, management & executive roles, finance and small business. Looking at engineering not as an end in and of itself -- although it can be -- but as a foundation for a long career journey will go a long way towards endearing the profession to more people.

Engineers getting a makeover

Sean, Torrington CT — Tue, 08 May 2007 22:49:31 GMT

The world needs less lawyers and more engineers, too bad we over-reward the lawyers and under-reward the engineers. The engineers design all the physical things you use, but they don't use that knowledge to profit off of you. Lawyers not only argue the law, they end up writing most of the laws as it is mostly lawyers who become politicians. Lawyers who become judges also get to judge you on how you obey the law.

Engineers getting a makeover

Montgomery Burns, Springfield — Tue, 08 May 2007 22:55:59 GMT

Would Homer Simpson qualify as an engineer? He seems to be some sort of technician at my Nuclear Power Plant.

Engineers getting a makeover

Matt, California — Tue, 08 May 2007 22:58:18 GMT

Engineering does not need a new face, or a TV show, or any other PR trick. What we need is a vision that will capture the imagination of millions of young minds. Then we set out to realize that vision, the rest is easy. That is what the space program did

Engineers getting a makeover

Edy, Somerset, NJ — Tue, 08 May 2007 23:05:37 GMT

I grew up in the house of an engineer. I watched as my father (a mechanical, electrical and HVAC engineer) passed through job after job during the corporate restructuring of the past 3-4 decades. I realized that middle-management and research & development teams are the first to go when push comes to shove. With all of the education, innovation and intellect that engineers bring to this world, they are wholely under-valued by corporate America. Many would-be engineers find that other professions are more profitable and have better job security.

Case-in-point... I am a "closet" engineer. As a child, I enjoyed working on the challenges and practical scientific applications of engineering with my father. However, having seen what he father went through, and with their encouragement, I pursued a field outside of engineering (i.e. dentistry - essentially an engineer of the mouth) which brought much better job security and independence.

Although many companies may be started by engineers, eventually they grow to a size where business executives staff the highest tiers. At that point, the engineers whose ideas built the foundation of the company's success become expendable and replacable. Future engineers need to learn the business skills that will allow them to found companies and remain in control of them, if the profession is to attract the talent of the next generation.

Engineers getting a makeover

Eric Hedman, Pewaukee, WI — Tue, 08 May 2007 23:50:11 GMT

I can't believe all the whining going on. I was told there was a severe shortage of engineers when starting on my degree in the late seventies. When I graduated in 1983 there were very few jobs in any engineering major. People should go into the field that they think they will be good at and will want to do. If they are good at what they have trained for and can sell themselves, they should be fine. They shouldn't go into a field because there is a shortage. I went into engineering because I wanted to be an engineer and no other reasons.

Companies in this country do a lousy job of bringing young engineers into the workforce. They quite often give them what amounts to clerical tasks. Once they have all the creativity and ambition driven out of them, they move them into the mundane everyday tasks of engineering. I have hired several engineers right out of school and have thrown them right into the fire of critical tasks and ask them for their ideas, input and critiques. It is amazing how quickly that turns them into very productive and creative employees. I also take a close look at what they do before I let what they have done out the door (I'm not stupid about that part). A young engineer needs a mentor and also the opportunity to show initiative from the very beginning. A number of my former employees have been inspired to start their own companies and are doing quite well.

I have worked with engineers in several dozen companies. I know the ones who whine and complain that they're under paid and fear being laid off. They are the ones who complain about being pushed out the door by cheaper younger engineers. They usually haven't been the positive go getters that have enhanced their value to their employer over the years. In a competitive market you are only worth to an employer what other equivalent engineers are will to the same work for.

For those who think that layoffs and outsourcing are only the province of engineers are also sadly mistaken. Radiologists in India regularly read X-rays transmitted digitally from US hospitals. That is just one example. It is a fact of globalization. Like it or not you have to prepare children that this is the world they now live in. If your fear is a lack of job security, get used to it. You have to advance your skills and stay competitive.

If you want to advance in salary and responsibility you have to be willing to take risks and be willing to regularly change jobs to get the opportunity you want. It's how the people who founded the companies most engineers work for did it. The meek do not inherit the good jobs.

Engineers getting a makeover

Amy Moore, Pownal, VT — Wed, 09 May 2007 02:33:08 GMT

My spouse and I were brainstorming slogans - him being a Civil Engineer and all.

The first one that came to mind is indeed my favorite:

"Don't worry about being blown up, worry about falling down."

We live in a culture that 100 years ago built the best infrastructure in the world and 50 years ago built the best highway system on the planet. But in 25 years that highway system will begin to catastrophically fail and that infrastructure is already in serious decline with brown outs and other "minor incoveniences."

Yet we pay policemen to patrol bridges for terrorists and purchase tainted dog food by the shipload.

We look at the microcosms in the news, but it is the big picture that bankrupts us.

My partner designs and maintains the systems that save and preserve our way of life for hundreds, thousands, even millions at a time - but there is no respect and very little appropriate pay. We worry about a few terrorists when we are not maintaining these very systems we depend on.

We will be our own enemy if our society doesn't change its most basic ethical philosophies which will begin by looking at the big picture of the world around us and much less at one little news story.

This story is no different. A catchy slogan will not elevate the view of a profession that cares for our world the way a mother cares for her child. We haven't improved the position of homemakers by advertising the relative pay of a "home CEO" and we won't improve the status of the men and women who engineer the things that make living easier - to work, to play, and to live. They do the job because it is their calling to do so.

My gratitude to the engineers that made all the technology possible to share this view!

Engineers getting a makeover

Wayne Grabow, Colorado Springs, CO — Wed, 09 May 2007 02:55:04 GMT

I graduated with a BSME, with honors, from Univ. of Calif. in 1971. Had two jobs in engineering where I was treated like a migrant laborer (follow the contracts), and a programable computer only good for technical questions (even though I had taken honors English, political science, economics, etc.) while being offered a rather moderate salary and made to feel I was easily expendable. So I dumped the profession and became a doctor. No regrets. I am treated like a respected person, a professional, and can discuss all aspects of a problem rather than limited to just some technical calculations. I still enjoy engineering as an intellectual challenge, but didn't like the way I was being treated.

Engineers getting a makeover

Dan — Wed, 09 May 2007 13:41:34 GMT

Engineers need to make way more money. When people think of rich perfesions they often think of doctors and lawyers. These professions make more money because they directly interact with the user, often at critical times. They can charge basically whatever they want because the consequences of them not doing their job are so great FOr example for doctors, death or serious illness could result and for lawyers, jail, not being able to buy a house or in the case of corporations, large financial liability. Engineers have nothing critical to hold over the head of their customers.

Engineers getting a makeover

Tyler, Fairfax, Virginia — Wed, 09 May 2007 14:05:40 GMT

Like so many engineers, I was originally attracted to the profession because I had an aptitude for math and science, and enjoyed building things in the garage. I now have two engineering degrees and 20+ years experience... but unfortunately, not a lot of satisfaction.

Most engineers I've interacted with over the years dream of doing something else. Not because they don't like designing and building things, but because their day to day job responsibilities are so detached from the excitement they felt in the garage. We spend years working on a small part within a bigger system that someone else gets all the appreciation and monetary rewards for.

Engineers are responsible for designing everything we use in the world, but yet the sales, marketing and company executives get all the glory, and monetary incentives. The reasons for this are obvious to me... too many engineers are doing jobs that could be done by techs and engineering assistants.

It's analogous to having a doctors office completely staffed by doctors. Would you look at your doctor the same if he were doing all the mondane tasks around the office? Do you think doctors would be paid as much? Do you think students would be working their butts off to become doctors? Engineers work in large packs rather than as specialists with support staff. This makes it impractical to incentivize engineers, and to give them the exposure they deserve. Engineers should hold positions similar to doctors and lawyers, where they have more responsibility and a staff to support them. Industry would save money, Engineers would have more job satisfaction and make more money, the profession would have more prestige and products would actually be less costly to design and produce.

Engineers getting a makeover

Kirk Kittell, Fairfax, VA — Wed, 09 May 2007 16:49:08 GMT

I always thought the "make engineering seem sexy" argument smelled of disingenuousness. It's like someone selling you a used car -- why are they trying so hard to sell it to you? If there wasn't something wrong, surely they wouldn't need to try so hard. You know there's something else behind the curtain that they're not showing. It feels... dishonest, especially when you consider that engineering *is* often boring.

I don't think the correct answer to making engineering seem like a prestigious career choice is to make it seem sexy -- sex appeal is fleeting. I like what Google does. Google puts its real people -- not just a superstar CEO/hot/famous what have you -- on their blogs (http://googleblog.blogspot.com/). They're nerds. But it's interesting. Some of the details are boring and esoteric, but you know that you're not getting only the filtered good stuff. It's more real, something you could almost touch, and thus something you could imagine yourself in the middle of. It doesn't look like fun all the time, which makes it not look like a lie (to me, at least).

Even though engineering is boring, I like it. It's months or years of work developing a rocket, a few hours of sweating for a launch countdown, and then a few minutes of fire. Bending all the way to the so-called instant gratification of the new age or all the way to what is portrayed as the long boring slog of the old age isn't going to work -- the answer is always in the middle.

(Admission: I have not read all of the comments on this page -- they are extensive -- so perhaps I have not said anything different here.)

Engineers getting a makeover

Michael Levine, PE - Santa Fe, NM — Wed, 09 May 2007 16:51:02 GMT

The is one simple reason why the engineering profession is low on recruits: The businesses that complain about the scarce availability of engineers want more H1-B visas for "cheap" outsourced engineers from India and China. It isn't worth the stress and agrivation to subject oneself to the grueling schooling and internships that have such little monetary reward. The new generation of college students are smarter than we were and are pursuing careers that have a better way of life and payback. All this engineering "feather fluffing" is "spinning" of recruitment propaganda. These "spins" never elucidate on the problems with the engineering profession, such as: stress disorders, lack of appreciation, monetarily self-destructive profession, long-term liability (i.e., Statutes of Repose for Professionals). I am a Licensed Professional Civil-Structural Engineer in New Mexico with over with a 25 year record of experience. When I started engineering school I was told by one of my professors that if I wanted to make money to go over to the business school and enroll. If I wanted prestige and appreciation to go to medical school. It was extolled that engineering would not bring much financial success nor prestige but would only provide a steady job. After 25 years+ I can confirm that this is proven to be true.

Engineers getting a makeover

JC, Fairbanks, AK — Wed, 09 May 2007 22:35:21 GMT

Alan: This is a wikkid cool entry on Cosmic Log! Wish I’d’a checked it out sooner!

D: “um, sorry pal. These kids don't know what a sliderule is, much less the pocket protector.”“What does hold them back beside freshman diffEQ at 8am on Monday mornings is pretty simple.”

I ‘came aboard‘ later than you did, D (90’s), but *I* know what both are. And people who can ferret-out the meaningful Physics behind differential equations are hard to find at any time of day.

To Chris of Huntsville: About Doctors I can agree, not about lawyers. They produce nothing.

To Jason Isaacs, Oceanside, CA: Exactly right.

To Lynnette, WI, who says: “I find it disgusting that I was required to take 4 years of English to graduate high school, but only 2 years of science and 2 years of math.”
It’s tough to teach students who’ve only had 2 of each, too, Lynette. But the very best thing you can take with you to your School of Engineering is your positive outlook.

Gene Putman, P.E., Thornton, Colorado, makes one of the best points here. Engineers have a hand in almost *everything* we do. Think about it. He also is a good example of why there SHOULD be professional licensing of Engineers (and should be for scientists too!).

To EE John Casapiedra:
“my repugnance at having to sit at the same table with sales and marketing people”
You virtually paraphrase my father, who was a career EE . . .

To P.E. of Seattle who said: “Perhaps engineering should just officially be a 5 year program” Yes, it should be. There’s too much to learn nowdays for 4 years. And MSs shouldn’t be ‘advertised’ as 2-3 years either.

To Sean, Torrington CT: Well said: “the losers. The kids who want to make lots of money but don't … 'get it'.” They become lawyers, Sean…sucks don’t it? You should read “The Hitch-Hiker’s Guide”; it obliquely refers to lawyers as “those who will be first against the wall when the revolution comes”…

To C: “but was never encouraged. This should change.” Some of us are doing what we can, C…

“I would prefer to be one of their divorce attorneys and take a good amount of their life savings” yup, Napoleon did indeed get it right, Mitch of NYC…now, up against the wall, mate, there's a good chap...

Mike of Beaumont, Texas, makes a good point; other countries esteem their scientists and engineers much more than americans do…

To Joe Watson, Montgomery, Alabama: “Maybe there should be repercussions for people who call themselves engineers (who are not).” Definitely.

To: Mo, Mile High City: And the *2nd* ‘rule’ of thermodynamics is “you do NOT talk about thermodynamics.”

Best quote on the page: “Engineering more or less chooses you, you don’t choose it, it's just something that is in you naturally.”

“The big question is "how do you get girls to develop a liking for taking things apart or to tinker with how gadgets work"?” By getting to them *early* in life, Jack Smythers. Read Amy Townsend’s remarks here:

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/
archive/2006/09/07/3075.aspx#comments

Now see here, LV, there’re *several* responses above from female Engineers. Does sexism exist? Yes. Generalizing men in your post proves that. Should there be more women in physical science and engineering? Also, yes. But cynicism doesn’t help.

“Elijah McCoy (the real McCoy)” cool reference, Tracy of Ft. Worth.

As for a ‘role-model’ I would vote for the whole band “Boston” (they were all EEs at MIT if I remember right), but unfortunately no one under ~35 has ever heard of them.

Engineers getting a makeover

Miguel Romero, Mexico city — Thu, 10 May 2007 02:14:05 GMT

3000 years ago, the ancient Egyptian empire glorified Imhotep, an engineer who built the first pyramids, turning him into a deity.

3000 years later, the new gods are not people who can devise ways to contruct monuments that can withstand the weight of the ages. The new gods build nothing, discover nothing, figure out nothing. They are but entertainers: musicians, singers, actors. Ours is the age of the Ludocracy.

Engineers getting a makeover

David Brinza, Sylmar, CA — Thu, 10 May 2007 08:45:53 GMT

If engineers want to make "way more money" then the public perception of their profession needs to surpass the stature of sports figures and TV/movie celebrities (who make multi-$M but contribute what?). That culture change can happen by inspiring the young people (K-12) to develop problem-solving skills in a project-like environment and celebrating their efforts in a high-energy competition.

The FIRST program provides a sports-like atmosphere to robotics and has gained a great deal of momentum in it's 16-year development. Tens of thousands of students are participating in FIRST teams at their schools under the guidance of mentors, teachers and parents. FIRST has just been featured in major media news (NBC Nightly News, May 8 with 12 million viewers):

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18559702/

Eric: you know the value of mentoring when you throw the youngsters into the "shark tank" of project reality. In FIRST, high school kids get a 6-week dose of focused, fast-paced project development - with experienced engineers alongside to keep them on track. Check out: www.usfirst.org

Engineers getting a makeover

ML, Santa Fe, NM — Thu, 10 May 2007 15:54:36 GMT

Engineering has become a self-defeating profession falling prey to the lowest bidder syndrome. That is the demise of the quality of engineering in the world today. The younger generations simply don't want to subject themselves to such a demeaning profession that strives to achieve academic excellence in preparation to receive less in payment for all the effort.

The marketplace that hires engineers does so resentfully and pays as little as possible for what the market considers a necessary evil.

Engineers getting a makeover

Dan, NM — Thu, 10 May 2007 16:47:03 GMT

It is all too sad, what is happening in America today. Being a professional and working in the field of engineering for the last 25 years, I see first hand what the quality and number of students that are graduating today from our Universities. How can it be justified, that the most regarded profession in this country is entertainment! Entertainment in the form of sports and acting. This people make ungodly amounts of money while the engineer, medical doctor, pharmacist, etc just to mention a few do not make anywhere close in salary as entertainers. The public puts more value into entertainment and emphasized by big business for the sake of profit. What message does this send out to our kids? The biggest blame for what is happening today in this country is big business. It is all about making money at any expense, at the expense of our children, the future of this country. Our businesses are so proactive in out-sourcing all of our jobs in sake of paying lower salaries and making bigger profits. Example; engineers in this country average an hourly rate of $42 per hour while overseas engineers work for as little as $5/hr. Universities have set aside high dollar scholarships for students from foreign countries which is probably driven by big business, this way a pool of professionals are created willing to work for lower salaries.

Engineers getting a makeover

Shocker, Fort Worth, TX — Thu, 10 May 2007 17:18:55 GMT

I have been an aerospace engineer for ten years at a few major companies. During that time I have had to work in offices that were filthy to the point that they smelled of rotting garbage. Sometimes my co-workers smelled too. I have always had to work in a cramped cubicle with poor lighting and ventilation. I have NEVER had a supervisor who had the first clue about managing work and the people who perform it. Mind you, these were not little Mom and Pop outfits; there were major multi-million dollar companies. The truth is, I would not recommend this profession to a young student, and I am attempting to find a new profession myself. Who is to blame for the sorry state of engineering? We engineers are to blame for accepting the degradation of our profession and for not doing something about.

Engineers getting a makeover

Karla, Marquette, MI — Sat, 12 May 2007 22:47:09 GMT

I just graduated with my Civil Eng degree last year. As I was going through HS my teachers had a lot to do with my profession choice. They were the ones that would take the classes to seminars about engineering. I was one of the rare kids that enjoyed math and science so to me engineering was a no brainer, all I had to figure out was which discipline.

Also what interested me was the wide possibilities. I work in the construction industry and I love it. I do a mixture of field work and computer work, but everyday is different.

Thats what I like the most. It's not the boring desk job that everyone in the generation before complained about. I get to do the base work inside and then go see it happen. With almost all engineering disciplines you get to see your ideas physically come to life. It's exciting and different from other degrees, that's what people need to see.

Engineers getting a makeover

Kathy, Tucson AZ — Thu, 17 May 2007 21:25:06 GMT

Wow, and here I am thinking I'm not smart enough for engineering. I remember when I was about 8 or so, I looked up "biomedical engineering" in the dictionary (I used to do stuff like that as a youngin) and I said 'ok that's what i wanna do'. I got to college, kind of did this limbo thing with school, you know, on again off again thing. One thing that really stuck out, was my Chem prof who had a BS, MS, PhD in ME, and he told us that he HATED being an engineer. He said it WASN'T WHAT HE THOUGHT IT WOULD BE. I also had a Math teacher tell me the same thing, although her degree was in ChemE. They both said they were expecting it to be more fun, more interesting, more creative. But once they got into it, they found that it was nothing more than 'deadlines deadlines deadlines', which can obviously curb your creativity. So my old Chem Prof is studying nanotechnology at UK and my Math teacher is still a math teacher at the local Community College.

Perhaps, there's nothing wrong with us students, but I think the problem is with the engineering job itself. How creative are you allowed to be? What kind of college student actually WANTS to work in a cubby hole all day long? Especially when you're not able to be as creative as you can be. Trust me, very few of them do. Is there any way to make the job ITSELF more interesting? One can hardly think that number crunching is super duper fun, I mean, kids these days are a lot more well rounded than they were before. Their very own desk and protective walls that you call a cubby will not make them a happy camper.

Now on the other hand, I don't remember who it was, but someone said something about being able to sell yourself and whatnot, and I wholeheartedly agree. Yes there are billions and billions of Indians and Chinese as someone pointed out. The key is what do you have that they don't? What can make you more marketable?

So I let go of the biomedical engineering, because I absolutely suck in biology. So now I'm thinking about ME. I hate to be put in a box or a career cap, and I'd like to think that ME will get me into so many different things as I get bored VERY easily. Maybe I'll kill myself softly by double majoring in something like underwater basket weaving to make myself more useful.

Oh another thing, to the college admin., don't dumb anything down. And just because you MAKE IT INTERESTING, DOES NOT MEAN YOU'RE DUMBING IT DOWN.

Show how this stuff RELATES to the real world. How hard is it for profs to do that??? hmmm

Engineers getting a makeover

Rick G, Rockville MD — Wed, 30 May 2007 13:13:16 GMT

Engineering has a huge role in public health. Go to www.usphs.gov and look up the Engineer category to see a sampling of work our engineers do to improve the health of populations in America and around the world. Better yet, consider joining the Commissioned Corps to be part of "Protecting, Promoting and Advancing the health and safety of the Nation"

Engineers getting a makeover

Kyle, Windsor, ON, Ca. — Thu, 31 May 2007 21:08:51 GMT

I studied for 2 years as a mechanical engineer before I was forced out because of a disability. I have found the field to be arrogant, top heavy, unaccommodating, and rather elitist but this is my own personal experience. Whether this falls for others I cannot say.

Engineering is a very very tough and demanding field with 4 or 5 years of FULL TIME study required (100+ hours a week combined in my case) there is no time for anything else that enriches human life.

The course work is demanding to the point that 70% of all people who enter do not exit the program with their degrees (moot point imo). Entry requirements are extremely high and you're often pigeon-holed when you do enter, making it a steep ladder for those essential co-op or internship positions that could make or break your career.

When you do enter into the field In may places (Canada included, where i am located) It is a protected field where you have to often scramble for a long time to find a willing professional to take you on for the 4 years before you can get your certification. You cant work otherwise in the field on your own. The salaries are good but the amount of work is very very immense. Often times the mid level to senior spots are so involved with work they have no time for families or recreation at all (my uncle manages the Windsor Branch of Stantec Consultants and has nearly been hospitalized several times with exhaustion and I rarely see him because of his work). There is no roof to what you can make but its a lonely calling that can be very scary for somone who is just starting out. Its an old profession that doesnt accommodate new things well (such as workers with disabilities) and this is probably its biggest downfall.

This could be very daunting to an unconfident freshman and assist them in making a choice for a less risky and with far more instant rewards and risk assesments. I think the biggest change that could be made to it would be more access to the "guts" at all points. Too many times people get lost in conundrums of work with little knowledge of how it applies to things. There isn't enough opportunity to "get your hands dirty" Especially for students who are not on the top of the pecking order and who are not the most academically inclined.

Engineers getting a makeover

JC, Fairbanks, AK — Sat, 14 Jul 2007 06:36:06 GMT

Karla’s (of Marquette) comments are great. Middle and High School teachers:
“ As I was going through HS my teachers had a lot to do with my profession choice.”
“I was one of the rare kids that enjoyed math and science”
“I work in the construction industry and I love it.”
“With almost all engineering disciplines you get to see your ideas physically come to life. It's exciting and different from other degrees”

It is certainly true that not everyone is ‘cut out’ to be an Engineer or Scientist, but at least “that's what people need to see” more of. Of course, like K, my thoughts on this are colored by the fact that I love what I do…

Engineers getting a makeover

David, University Park, Pennsylvania — Mon, 17 Dec 2007 06:22:19 GMT

I'm currently a sophomore at PSU, with the intended major of mechanical engineering, and I thought I'd add my two bytes.

I consider the most important aspect of engineering to be proficient analytical thought. Why? Because anyone can memorize a bunch of formulas, plug in numbers, and come out with an answer. But what engineers should be able to do is come up with the equations in the first place. Consequently, I think the biggest problem with attracting people to engineering as a career is that students in high school are not taught to think critically anymore. Students from elementary school on up are no longer taught to 'think.' Instead, they're taught a LOT of random information. But this doesn't do any good when you have to solve a problem yourself, without any formula. For example, in high school English, teachers encourage students to make whatever they want of stories, novels, etc., even if the conclusions they reach are simply wrong or nothing evidenced in the material read points to their conclusion. Despite this, the teacher will give praise to the student for being creative. This is what's wrong with America's education. There needs to be a right and wrong, truth and falsity, and students need to be taught how to think in these terms early on, so that they develop the skills in 'thinking' that are necessary to become, in this case, an engineer.

Another problem I have with engineering is that in industry, the money that engineers make for a company is astronomical when compared with the amount that they're paid. Managers are really nothing more than glorified accountants, and although marketing is a relatively refined art, it's still pretty easy. The bottom line is that if a product is good, it will sell. If it's bad, it won't. And that has more to do with the engineering of the product than anything else. I think it's disgusting how much managers make in comparison, when really, the engineers are most responsible for a company's revenue.

Consequently, I don't intend to make engineering the end of my career. This is sad. I wish I could be an engineer for 30 years and retire happily, but most likely, I'll go work as an engineer for a while, go back to school for an MBA, and then go into management. The only reason I didn't start off with business in the first place is because I want security. I want to be able to do whatever I want in life, and the best way I can make that a reality is to get a degree in engineering first. Because I think, someday, the world is going to have to wake up to the idea that you get paid for what you accomplish, and not how high up in the company you are.

But the big idea I'm trying to get across is that I wish I could see myself being an engineer for my entire career, but to get kids content with that idea, there's going to have to be a fundamental change in the pay structures of corporate business, and whether that will happen or not, I have no idea. Probably not, if I had to guess.

Engineers getting a makeover

Ray — Thu, 27 Dec 2007 10:21:18 GMT

As a re-entry/transfer student attending a highly ranked, prestigious university, I must add my two bits on this topic. I believe that the coursework for all engineers remain difficult, but in a manner far different than what currently exists. Case in point. I have found out (through various difficult lower division courses) that if an instructor/professor gives: hard/difficult assignments, somewhat hard midterm(s), and an easy final, that my mastery of the material (no matter what it might be) was and is very high. But, when attempting courses where: the assignments were not really worth any points and/or were easy/normal in nature, the midterms were as difficult or more difficult than the lecture, and the final is way more difficult in nature, that I have retained very little from the coursework in question. Here is my pundit. Would you trust a mechanical engineer who truly mastered physics or one who couldn't solve simple statics or dynamics problems? Would you trust a chemical engineer who truly mastered chemical processes or one that couldn't solve an algebraic system of equations in 45 minutes? Give me a break. The real world does not operate on such standards, and neither should our aspiring engineers. THIS backward teaching methodology needs to be removed from the academia given in any engineering coursework. When I get done acquiring my B.S. in chemical engineering (if ever), I will go into another field where I am given the respect and admiration I am due.

Engineers getting a makeover

Premraj Janardanan — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 05:46:40 GMT

I would like to state that engineering is an extremely lucrative profession; but we engineers need to
1) do more creative engineering work if we want to paid well and
2) get out more and share what comes out of our brillant minds with the world so that they will pay us more money for the value we produce

Quick intro: I am an M.I.T. grad, with a B.S. in Electrical Engineering and I intentionally took a second degree B.S. in Business just so that I could learn more about how to market my ideas. (I was tired of business majors who were constantly accusing engineers for not having commercial sense, and decided to rpove them wrong). I spent two years at a top notch business consulting firm to hone these business skills, and then intentionally came back to my real passion, design engineering. I work as a pure analog micro-chip designer, designing radio -frequency chips now. So yes, I am a 100% techie now for a few years, not a management/marketing guy.

Engineers don't get paid well because many of us engineers out there
1. Are not doing creative engineering work, i.e. producing a new design/innovation the world really needs. Many of us are working on products for which the technology is mature (eg. cement manufaturing, combustion engine cars etc.). If we want to make the big bucks, we have to be come up with innovative ideas. This does not mean that one has to be a genius. It means that we just need to think out of the box more.

2) Unfortunately in our world nobody rewards creative minds alone. We need to the world to know how smart we are before they decide to pay us for it. The key is to either
a) learn to sell our brilliant ideas, even though this is not a skill that comes naturally to us engineers. But we engineers are a perseverant bunch, and we can learn these skills if we want to
b) enlist a partner who is a better salesman than we are (think the Jobs/Wozniak partnership)

I would hate any high schoolers currently reading these generally pessimistic posts (though with spatters of occasional optimism) to think that they are doomed to a career of low income; that they will be punished for their love of creating cool products.

I have personally known quite a number of hardcore techies (who are not geniuses by the way.. just regular guys with childlike technical curiosity) who are rich because they followed the path prescribed in 1) and 2) above.

Anyone out there reading these posts, if you love to build stuff I encourage you to pursue this passion.

Engineers getting a makeover

D, LA, NM — Mon, 07 Jan 2008 22:05:00 GMT

As far as Bill Gates and Steve Jobs as spokesmen for engineering, you're joking, right? Neither one studied engineering, nor graduated from college for that matter. Gates is on record as advocating a large increase in H1-Bs and Jobs iPod is manufactured in China. Two business icons better thought of as spokesmen for serious kick-ass entrepreneurs.

How about Scott Adams who created Dilbert - complete with short sleeves and a tie? From a website:

Education
Hartwick College, Oneonta New York, BA in economics, 1979.
University of California at Berkeley, MBA, 1986. Certified Hypnotist, Clement School of Hypnosis, San Francisco, 1981.
Day Jobs
I worked at Crocker National Bank, San Francisco, 1979 to 1986, in a number of humiliating and low paying jobs: teller (robbed twice at gunpoint), computer programmer, financial analyst, product manager, and commercial lender.

I moved from the bank to Pacific Bell, San Ramon, California, and worked there from 1986 through June 1995. I worked in a number of jobs that defy description but all involve technology and finances. The most recent job was in a laboratory, finding ways to use digital phone lines and also running the company's BBS. My business card said "engineer" but I'm not an engineer by training.

From 1989 until 1995 I worked my day job while doing the Dilbert comic strip mornings, evenings and weekends.

How about Jeff Foxworthy? From a website: Foxworthy planned to follow in his father's footsteps by majoring in computer technology at Georgia Tech and working at IBM. Yet he discovered that he gained more enjoyment from making co-workers laugh than working with computers. He eventually quit his job to devote his life to being a comedian.

Engineering is pretty much a chump occupation in my opinion. A reasonable way to go from blue-collar to middle-class but that's about it. PhD usually a waste for most industry jobs. PhD required for professor slot, but typically a huge number of applicants for most university openings, ran over 100/slot back in the 80s. Better to go into an occupation with supply constraints tightly controlled by those in that occupation, e.g., law and medicine. Job security not particularly great. Tell me again about the layoffs in law and medicine in the early 70s and early 90s. Shortage claims by those who benefit most from an oversupply. Pressure for Congress to raise H1-B caps. Massive supply waiting to take all H1-B visas offered. Most discussion articles on shortages only talk about supply side, typically very little talk about demand. China and India are cranking out x times more engineers than the US - so what? What and where is the absorption?

My suggestion: You like engineering? Get an undergrad degree in it and then go to business, medical or law school - or become a cartoonist, comedian, musician.

Engineers getting a makeover

Ralph Ward — Fri, 15 Feb 2008 22:37:18 GMT

Allan:
Your comments regarding "geeky" engineers is typical of the unwashed masses. When I went to OU way back last century, the ones who couldn't hack the Engineering curriculum tried Geology, then Business, then down to Journalism, and lastly Sociology. As to your contention that Engineers are desk bound and boring, as an Engineer, I worked in the USA, Canada, Venezuela, Paris, London, Douala, travelled to nearly every corner of the earth and handle three languages pretty well.

The problem with you and your ilk is not coming to terms with the fact that Engineering takes a bunch of smarts and hard work. That's why Engineering isn't popular. Let's face it, the casualty rate is about 85%! Who knows, you might have been one of the latter.

Ralph Ward
Professional Engineer

Engineers getting a makeover

John, Middletown, IN — Fri, 15 Feb 2008 22:57:31 GMT

Engineering is a tough discipline that requires a lot of study to get through those weeder classes like calculus and physics. It's easier to major in a soft, less quantitative area like business. In the past, engineers made big bucks, so the kids were more motivated to slug through the drudge classes. They aren't dumb. Most have figured out that its easier to major in a business discipline and still make the big bucks (or make even bigger bucks?) these days. If engineering employers pony up enough cash, the kids will find enough motivation to suffer through the abstract, drudge classes. I don't see that happening though. Many American engineers are already underemployed and many do work more suited for technicians than professional engineers with extensive training. Also, many companies have discovered that it is cheaper and just as effective to hire engineers from poor countries like China and India, rather than the expensive American talent, for many of these positions.

The same thing is also happening in medicine. An Indian or other third world medical doctor is a lot cheaper than an American MD and cheaper, imported MD's have reduced the overall cost of MD's.

Engineers getting a makeover

Meg Cunningham — Tue, 19 Feb 2008 03:00:52 GMT

Being an engineering major is pretty hard as it is, let alone a girl. I've been walking through buildings before where people have asked me if I was lost. Regardless, I love what I'm studying. I can't understand why someone would want to go to college and not work hard. The classes should stay as they are; I worked my tail off freshman year and the work habits I developed as a result have helped me since. Our freshman class was a guinea pig for an experiment where we were required to study philosophy and study in groups - I feel like this was very beneficial to the other guys in my class.

Right now I'm finishing my undergraduate degree in Nuclear Engineering and couldn't be happier with where I am. I think the key is to definitely reach out to girls early - the Girl Scouts and Space Camp were the highlights of my childhood. People are always surprised when I say I can solve the Schrodinger wave equation (the what?) because I look like a ditzy little girl. The face of engineering is changing, in a rather dynamic way. I always tell the freshmen, "if I can do it, so can you."

As to the jobs issue: as a Nuclear Engineer, I have Navy reps and hospitals lining up outside my door and clogging the inbox of my email. I think the key is to understand that you can't go anywhere by simply being smart - you have to supplement that with experience (co-ops are a huge deal) and maybe try for a dual MS-MBA.

Engineers getting a makeover

Eddie Senk, Germantown,Md — Sun, 09 Mar 2008 19:11:34 GMT

I think the biggest problem are the employers.They want expierience thats too specifc.Not fleaxable at all.I have my BS degree.No interviews. No Hires.
If we really need engineers then then HIRE SOME!!
I may be switching careers because of this bullcrap.I've had enough! Employers and colleges just don't care.If they do then they need to show it!
All this nonsence of making engineering more appealing will do no good if nobody hires them!

Engineers getting a makeover

Pamela, Toronto, ON — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 05:36:10 GMT

Engineers are respected for their intelligence but disrespected because our salaries do not match other professionals such as doctors or lawyers. The reason for that is because the supply of engineers exceeds the demand, unlike the doctor situation where doctors are in short supply. The reason that doctors are in short supply is because the medical associations are careful to control the number of doctors licensed every year. These medical associations also lobby the government to require foreign doctors to jump through several hoops before they can practice. For various reasons the engineering professional organizations have not followed the lead of the medical associations. One reason may be that the people who select medicine as a career are more financially motivated than those who select engineering.

Engineers getting a makeover

Steve, Westminster, CO — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 21:20:23 GMT

As a software engineer, I can say that a prime reason people do not want to go into the profession is engineers are simply not valued in the large majority of companies. Engineers are treated as an expense that should be outsourced to some low-cost country, because they are being paid money that could go to management instead. Why bother to put in all that time and effort to learn how to be an engineer if your job is just going to be shipped somewhere else? If people see engineers are actually treated like valued employees, then more people will want to become engineers. If they see all the hard work that engineers do rewarded by pink slips, then they understandably will want not want to go into the profession - which is not even treated like a profession here.

Engineers getting a makeover

anonymous — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 21:19:56 GMT

I graduated w/ an engineering degree in materials engineering in 05'. 5 years and 2 engineering jobs later I realized that the problem w/ the engineering profession is that it isn't rewarding. You have no creative say in anything and people w/ little engineering experience make the rules. There are exceptions such as those engineers w/ PhDs that do their own research or those that own their own business, but an engineer in a corporate setting is really a terrible waste. Most of my fellow engineers were bitter and unhappy mostly b/c of their jobs. I got out quick and now attend business school. I feel that what I am learning in school now can be readily applied in the "real world" in many ways. I no longer feel pigeonholed. American innovation was the cool part of engineering, but that seems to have been killed by large engineering firms.

Engineers getting a makeover

John Doe, California — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 04:28:12 GMT

Sorry if I offend anyone but the fact is that most engineers are nerds with no people skills. It is not their fault really since they go through school competing against the curve in order to have a desirable GPA that will lure in employers. I like the previous metaphor, we are like light bulbs.

I strongly disagree with misleading children into believing that engineering is a thrilling profession. It is not.

Individuals who become engineers and excel at it, were meant to become engineers and would have done so regardless of how much exposure they might have had to one of these "outreach" programs.

By the way going to school will not turn you into MacGyver. Anything "thrilling" ... I've learned on the internet or by trial and error. The moment I became an engineer, I dropped most of my extracurricular activities to concentrate in school. I did not learn anything "thrilling" in school and most of my classmates will agree to this.

There is one thing I've learned as an undergrad.I learned how to stay awake and perform what was asked of me without questioning whether it would benefit me or not.

We are no better than pawns...if it makes you feel better, smart pawns.

Engineers getting a makeover

Sara mola — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 21:32:41 GMT

Individuals who become engineers and excel at it, were meant to become engineers and would have done so regardless of how much exposure they might have had to one of these "outreach" programs.