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Regina L., Essexville, MI — Mon, 09 Feb 2009 23:10:55 GMT

I don't understand why we NEED to know what dark matter is made of, or if space has extra dimensions we haven't detected yet. Couldn't the money being used for this project be put to better use? If scientists can figure out how to build a particle smasher, can't they figure out how to make cars run on water or air? Or, find cures for diseases?

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Tom — Mon, 09 Feb 2009 23:26:53 GMT

Let me get this right. They're going to make a black hole with this thing and that's it, right? How many millions did it take to make this machine to do one thing and then what, take it apart? Sounds like a money maker for a few people with the downside that the money might not be worth much if we're crushed in a black hole.

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AM houston, tx — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 00:07:45 GMT

regina: if the scientist discover the things that they think that they will, the findings may not have an immediate effect on your daily life. but they will have long term scientific implications. how we came to be, what happened when time started and how we might be able to harness the power of "dark matter"

tom: no they arent going to make a black hole and then tear it down. what kind of question is that. there is no danger from these black holes either. read up on things before you comment on them.

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Jerry Hughes Long Beach, Ca — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 00:27:45 GMT

This is basic scientific research which we cannot afford not to do. While it may seem senseless now we can never know what it may lead to. Studying mold on a orange at first sight is senseless but it led to the discovery of penicllin which has proven extremely useful. Compared to the trillion dollars to bail out U. S. banks it is a bargain.

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Norman, Houston, TX — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 01:02:57 GMT

The ignorance being displayed by the comments here is astounding. There is no way to make a car run on water or air as neither has the rigt energy content.
Second, they are not creating black holes. Third, the undrstanding of nature at a fundamental levls is a proven way to develop new technologies and prosperity. Ever heard of elecricity?

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Kyle, New Orleans — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 01:03:19 GMT

I am sick of, "Why are we wasting money on this," arguments. 300 years ago when scientists were messing around with magnetic rocks and static electricity I could have made the same argument by saying, "Why are you guys wasting time on electricity? It has no practical application." The most benificial scientific advances have been made by people tinkering with something that seemed completely useless at the time. More to the point, partical colliders have already givin us directly or indirectly, the MRI(Magnetic Resaonance Imaging), the PET scan(Positron Emmission Tomography), CAT scans, Radiation Cancer treatment, Industrial Superconductors, Modern Computers, The Internet, Food Sterilization, Scanning of ships and containers, and others to numerous to list here.

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Larry Florida — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 01:04:20 GMT

What do you think caused the "big bang" in the first place? a bunch of dweebs trying to create a big bang :)
not to worry no one will ever know about it, happens in less than a milisecond......

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Niles, Philadelphia, PA — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 01:11:20 GMT

the technological advantages that the LHC could yield are endless... many technologies that we take for granted once came from way out there ideas... The principles behind Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) emerged form particle accelerator research for example. While the fundamental principles that we hope to discover at the LHC may seem pointless and irrelevant, the distilled technologies from the LHC results could change the world as we know it.

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Larry Schweitzer, Lincoln, NE — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 01:17:55 GMT

Basic research has lead to many useful things. You never know in advance, it may be just another black hole for $. At any rate enlightened minds want to know, the rest just want to curl up in safety knowing there is nothing new to be discovered (of value.) Good thing there were people like C. Columbus, lots of people at the time thought the earth was flat. Like people today think the universe is only 6,000 years old, enlightenment!

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Jen, Chatham IL — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 01:18:20 GMT

Every aspect of our daily lives has been impacted and dramatically improved by technology that is a direct spin-off of research done in the fields of Astronomy and Physics. ( and others) We need more pure scientific research, not less.

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Keith A Smith, Jr. Kennewick, WA — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 01:18:53 GMT

Well, it is within the memory of man that officially, the earth was flat and no one thought it important to prove it otherwise. Also that the iron plow would poison the soil and the U S midwest was an unusable wasteland. If money had not been spent to prove those sacred precepts and certain knowledge to be false, and that much good was derived from such proof, where would the human condition be today?

While it isn't easy for most of us to understand the worth of understanding the way the universe is constructed, many do, and are confident that much good will be derived from it. As I have seen such investigations pay off in my lifetime, I endorse this work, wholeheartedly.

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Jim — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 02:34:21 GMT

The study of particle physics has yielded many medical benefits such as medical diagnosis and treatment including the treatment of cancer patients. They help us to understand the nature of the universe which understanding aids us in all kinds of technological advances that are now indispensible to us (such as the superconductor). Without that understanding to build on you may never see a viable, clean alternative to the fossil fuel powered car or the medical cures we seek. Future technology hinges on us understanding more about the universe we live in and understanding comes through scientific investigation. Not to mention that so many scientific discoveries that have benefited us have been discovered while investigation something completely different.

The following website explains some of the many benefits that have come through a better understanding of particle physics.

http://www.fnal.gov/pub/inquiring/physics/
discoveries/top_quark_background/
top95_benefits_of_hep.html

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Brent, Calumet, MI — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 02:34:55 GMT

I think it's very interesting. But then, I've studied the history of science and technology. I've also read many books describing physics theories. Recently I finished Einstein by Walter Isaacson. The machine will be used for decades if at all possible. I'm not even aware of a tenth of the things it will be used to study, but there are many.

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Eric, New York — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 02:39:33 GMT

Will the ability to create a black hole theoretically dwarf the power of an atom bomb? I hope not, for humankinds sake. How can you play around with such dangerous things and assume we are safe. As long as there is unkown aspects of these phenomenon, it remains dangerous.

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karl2m, leuven, belgium — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 02:39:57 GMT

This is fundamental research. Your television wouldn't work without it, and neither would some semi conductors that are used in many electronic apliances. What will come out of this research is not predictable, but one thing is certain: it will be something BIG, maybe something that has the potential to turn our economies or even our societies around just like television or the computer did. In that light, 4 or 5 billion dollars is nothing. Just look at what IBM has been investing over the years.
besides, have you forgotten that the internet was invented by two people at the cern? Their names are tim berners-lee and robert calliau. That invention alone paid for the investments in a new particle accellerator. looking forward is the right way to go!!

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Kevin — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 02:43:46 GMT

Would you PLEASE at least do the MINIMUM research related to this field of particle physics before making ignorant comments? So you think that the field of science and technology should simply sit still and never move forward from this point? What if people like yourselves were in charge of all this? Well then we'd still be using vacuum tubes and rotary dial phones. Do you have any idea the insane amount of money that went into the development of the transistor or microchip? Hmm, did either of those change our world for the better at all? Gee, I wonder, it's not like satellites or computers are of much use huh?

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Chris Castonguay, Somers, CT — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 02:44:48 GMT

Projects like these are necessary if we wish to advance our technological capabilities. We NEED to know things about dark matter and extra dimensions to get answers about questions which never occured to us. Doing these experiments will eventually lead us to things like "how to make cars run on water or air". While it might not seem to be a practical use of money to some, the results will benefit everyone in the long term.

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Bill Taylor — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 02:49:35 GMT

Are we really going to allow these fanatics to create a machine that has the power to destroy all of Gods creation? These sorts of sacrilegious doomsday machines m should not be tolerated.

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Peter, San Francisco, California — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 02:49:37 GMT

No, it's not just about making a miniature black hole. There are other experiments being done. It doesn't do just one thing. The article only covered one thing. There are a raft of scientists all looking at different aspects of the particle collisions. The collider is a good thing. We'll learn a lot about astrophysics.

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Tyler — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 02:51:55 GMT

The particle colider is very important then most people consider. If they would take the time to understand the information that is gained, they would have a much greater respect for this type of science. Not to mention the fact that people are not going to pay billions of dollars to make something that is not "worth it".

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Ken Winghart — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 02:57:01 GMT

We need this machine to prove that the moon is NOT made of green cheese. Time to put that well believed factoid to rest!

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S, Denver — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 02:57:55 GMT

Regina, Tom,

Not at the front of the line when they handed out imagination, huh? Think beyond your small lives and try to see a bigger picture. Not all knowledge is useful in itself, but if it leads to something bigger and better ...
And anyway, this isn't your money or the US Government's money, it's not your tax dollars, so get off your holier than though attitudes.

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Joe, Reading, Pennsylvania — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 02:58:18 GMT

Why do we need to drive cars anywhere when we can walk? Why do we need the Internet when we can talk?
Why use a whiteboard when we have chalk? (forced rhyme...)

There is a lot that could be discovered with this machine...

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Lee Baumann Sugar Tree TN — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 03:04:05 GMT

They're betting the entire planet and six billion peoples lives that a potential black hole will not run away and they can't even keep the damned thing running.

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Edward H. Kramer, New London, NH — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 03:04:20 GMT

I don't know why but I sincerely feel that this is an important step for mankind. With this machine functioning maybe we are going where no man has gone before. I hope that it is not the case where we are going where no man should go. We are counting on these scientists to use their best judgment.

I would like someone to answer the question how small must a black hole be to be of no danger to us all? We have been safe from black holes because they are so far away. The ones we may be producing are in our back yard. If more than one black hole is created can they merge? Would that make a difference?

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Patrick Talty, Mineola, NY — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 03:08:10 GMT

People...educate yourselves about the science behind this and other machines like it. If you've ever known someone who's received radiation therapy, you can thank machines like this. If scientist do figure out how to make cars run on something other than oil, it will be precisely these kinds of experiments that will lead the way. Basic resarch is the engine of society's evolution. Of course, if all this seems like too much work, we can simply sit back, watch TV all day and let our friends in China do the science. I'm sure they'll share the results with us once we learn how to speak chinese.

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Peter, Boston, MA — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 03:11:54 GMT

Judging by the comments here, small minds with small thoughts are not in short supply. When mankind stops exploring and trying to understand the mysteries of the universe, we will return to the dark ages, where ignorance and superstition prevailed. In the past, great minds explored the universe with their powers of introspection, imagination, analytical ability and logical deductive reasoning. These days, petty minds count nickels and dimes and pennies, seemingly lacking even a basic education of scientific fundamentals, never mind having the capacity to think critically. It's a sad day that America has come to this.

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mzungu — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 03:22:07 GMT

Cure for diseases? Sure, like debilitating technical myopia.

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Joe, Minneapolis MN — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 03:23:28 GMT

I'm actually a bit bummed out that I have to wait another year before I hear anything cool coming from the LHC. I'm not really a student of science, but I do watch and read a lot of material on space, time, and matter.
On another note, I am rather tired of seeing the complaints of others on this post about what the LHC has to offer. First, it's human nature to be curious about things. Second, biproducts of the research or methods used in attaining this knowledge results in technological improvements that benefit everyone. Ever heard of "The World Wide Web"? Contrary to belief, Al Gore did not invent it. It was a biproduct from a previous particle accelerator, at the CERN Lab on the France/Switzerland border, when scientists needed to communicate data more efficiently with each other. Aside from that, other technologies arose from the use of particle accelerators, such as cell phones.
All in all, it's a good thing we're trying to understand the universe. It just makes things better for all of us!!

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Phil, Los Angeles, CA — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 03:32:43 GMT

Regina, I'd agree with you, but the reality is that car companies own politicians. If some other company of scientists came up with a better car, the car companies would bog that company down in litigation until it wasn't cost effective to produce the car anymore. As much as we'd all like to believe that its all about protective the Earth, its not. Its about money.

Tom. Did you read the article? Its going to make MAYBE a few small black holes, but those aren't really the focus of the experiment. The analysis of matter leads us to fundamental new ideas or equations that could potentially allow us to colonize other planets, or make space travel possible and time effective. Black holes with the destructive power to crush the Earth are born only of immense amounts of matter (i.e - stars) collapsing in on itself. Single photons colliding MIGHT create microscopic black holes that wouldn't be able to sustain themselves, much less envelope the entire Earth.

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Dimento Graven — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 03:39:11 GMT

Oh wow... I just read the first two read comments from Tom and Regina, and it makes me sad.

Understanding what dark matter is has extreme implications on future technologies including, but not limited to, polution free generation of energy, gravity control, and the ultimate fate of the universe, where the human race currently resides and keeps all its stuff.

No need to fear any black holes generated by this puny little device. Keep in mind the only black holes we really have to worry about are those that are generated by stars that are 10 times the mass of our sun or greater, and that the energy used in the LHC is approximately 10 to -1,000,000,000 amount of the energy required to produce a black hole that would 'last' long enough to do have any significant impact on the planet.

"IF", and it's still an extremely HUGE "IF", a black hole is create, the 'size' of the black hole is indicated as being 'microscopic', which in of itself is a gross over estimation of the 'size' of the black hole. The black hole's 'size' would be atomic, or maybe not even that large, but sub-atomic.

I think what scientists have done a piss poor job of explaining is that the 'size' of the black hole is area of gravitic influence. If I understand how all this works, the black hole is a singularity, a singularity is a 'point' in space, and in speaking of blackholes it's a point in space where gravity is warping space back in on itself. You do this at the sub-atomic, atomic, or 'microscopic' level in a vacuum, and there's not going to be enough mass available to 'feed' the black hole to keep it from completely evaporating itself through Hawking radiation to become an issue.

IE: It's like being worried about a kid creating a fusion bomb using the scrapings from his glow in the dark watch dial. There's just not enough there, nor will there ever be enough there, to worry about.

Deep breaths, relax people.

Science drives technology, technology drives innovation, innovation results in interesting applications, interesting applications are potential products, potential products marketed well drive demand, demand drives business opportunities and markets.

It used to be believed any human being attaining a physical speed greater than 35 miles per hour would die.

If scientists let the limit stay at that rate, it would take days/weeks to cross the north american continent, weeks/months for oceanic travel, and life as we currently know it, would not at all be possible.

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Dan, Portland, OR — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 03:43:59 GMT

LHC for life, son!

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Mark, Madison — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 03:56:37 GMT

Everything around us has come about because of the understanding of atoms. With the correct results we may someday make our cars run on water alone.

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Theodore Sattley, Atkinson, New Hampshire — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 04:00:17 GMT

The collider will answer some of the most pressing questions regarding space travel and matter composition. I cannot think of a better way to spend money and science should have more funding. That way people will then know why the collider is so important to science and not insist on using the small amount of funding to battle other problems.

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JeansOregon — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 04:01:51 GMT

Facinating and a bit scary. I am curious if we may ever find the bridge between Newtonian Theory and Sub-atomic particle theory. We struggle understanding Newtons responses as we build the space station and bandage economies. We have the Hadron Collider to search the sub-atomic particle end-of-the-spectrum to attempt to grasp that we are made up of nothing at all. Is this a candle burning at both ends? We are seeing how a time of differentiation is simply leading us back into unification. Think I'll go wind up my pendulum clock.

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Dan, Vancouver WA — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 04:09:21 GMT

Regina,

You also may not understand the incredible amount of knowledge about material and energy physics that went into creating the devices you used to create and send your message. TO continue our advances in technology and the sciences we need to know as much as possible about the resources that are available in our universe.

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Ed — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 04:10:37 GMT

Too bad so many superstitious savages can't figure out that we need tools and knowledge to solve problems. One huge problem is that we are running out of energy and need a way to produce it economically. A tool like this may show us the way, for example.

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Christine, Linwood, Michigan — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 04:16:04 GMT

Regina, I'm sorry you don't understand the scientific value of the collider, and the immense benefits to humanity from the knowledge that could be gained from it. Maybe you should consider that your lack of knowledge is the problem, and not the value of the collider. A little education in science is a wonderfully useful thing, and since I live near you, I suspect the problem is with your schooling. Education shouldn't end with high school graduation, though, so I encourage you to pick up a basic science text and give it a try. If you don't know, scientists of different specialties ARE working on cures for diseases, and engineers are working with cars. Concerning cars however, If you don't understand why we don't have a vehicle that gets better gas mileage or is powered by an alternative fuel, maybe you should explore the politics of the oil lobby.

Tom, your worry about being sucked into a black hole should be way down on your list of threats to yourself. The scientists involved have discussed that issue and put it to rest. Maybe you should look into what's in your food and water.

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Eric — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 04:21:50 GMT

Crushed - not, ripped apart, maybe.

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JD, Seattle, WA — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 04:28:43 GMT

I wonder if all the so-called "problems" the Large Hadron Collider is "experiencing" actually are definitive proof of the ability of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle to operate across vast distances not only of space but also of time?

Is it possible that some event in the future actually is affecting the past based on the general rule that the only way to prevent it from happening--hence from violating the key prohibition of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle-is to alter what for it is the past but for us is the present?

Could it be that so long as a certain as yet unidentified "experiment" continues to be either on the books or in the mind of someone, the Large Hadron Collider never will start working, instead continuing to experience a virtual festival of strange and unusual singularities until eventually someone, perhaps a clerk in a patent office somewhere in another dimension, connects the dots and determines that all the problems can be solved by adding highly reflective mirrors to the walls of the lobby?

I have no idea, but it certainly is beginning to appear that something mysterious is happening, especially considering the possibility that the Large Hadron Collider actually has been fully operational for a long time but the results of the so-called "experiments" are so startling that our leaders have decided that it is best if we simply do not know what happened . . .

That this appears to be a bit beyond strange makes it all the more likely, really, because one of the fundamental requirements of all illusions is that they only work so long as just a handful of people know the truth . . .

Thanks!

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George, Wilmington — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 04:30:38 GMT

Hey Regina, research on how things work is what leads to cures for diseases and better ways to run cars. For example, why should we be limited to running cars on perfectly good water or air when we could use the zero point energy of empty space to power nanomachines that could cure diseases or provide more effective transportation? And if we can prove and use other dimensions... who knows what we could do? The Large Hadron Collider is just one of those research tools that can help expand our options in ways we can't yet envision.

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John, Merrillville, IN — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 04:32:16 GMT

Are you kidding me? So I guess now all research that does not end in a new version of the "Sham-Wow" is just a waste? The two of you above (Regina and Tom) really need to get a clue! This "thing" is one of the most important scientific tools ever built. Yes, it does come with a price. No, it can not be built for free by scientists on their own time over the weekend. I am so sick of science being attacked for every dollar they spend for the sake of discovery. These same people think that everything just "is", that some how it took nothing to create the things we have today. As an example the discoveries made that stem from the research and development of the U.S. space program reaches into every persons daily lives. Scientists are not wizards, nor are they prophets; every question has an answer but it takes research, experimentation, and of course money to fund the research and experimentation process. Not every program has a clear cut beneficiary, not every experiment will be successful, but the process is what we all depend on to advance the human race forward. Even though you may not personally find value in what these scientists are trying to achieve, I am asking you to try and imagine what your life would be like with out your "blackberries", "iphones", "laptops", and all the other daily convieniences that were born from research and scientific discovery. Just in case your wondering... no, your iphone does not run on magic! Instead of asking why the money wasnt used for something else, you should be asking why arent we putting more money into scientific research? The enlightened life is the only one worth living. I think you two need to work on it!

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MiKe P., Davie, FL — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 04:36:03 GMT

They need to understand dark matter for the same reason we needed to understand nuclear fission, combustion, electricity, how to communicate via written language, etc. Without going into a science lesson... in theory the use of dark matter could be a tremendous source of energy. It could also if able to be controlled eliminate matter and solve our nuclear waste and other problems. Kind of like having a bottomless garbage can. Lots we can only speculate about until we know and understand. Ofcourse that is assuming that dark matter even exists. Miniature black holes have tons of their own uses as well.. If only we can learn and understand. I am just glad that those who scoffed at and wanted to stop science in the past didn't succeed.

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Archie Clark, Seal Beach, California — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 04:44:27 GMT

Are you kidding me? This piece of junk will never work! It's only been job security for a bunch of morons who have people fooled into thinking that "they" (the scientists involved) are smart and are really doing something productive.It's a waste of time and money cause the next time they start it up it will fail again. They don't know what they're doing.

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Japan — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 04:46:13 GMT

Regina and Tom - I appreciate that in these tough times, you have fears and reservations about funding cutting-edge scientific research. The best thing both of you can do to help our economy is very simple. Continue to do your jobs and let the thinkers do theirs.

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Harold Wright, Houston Texas — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 04:51:50 GMT

No Tom, you did not get it right. You did't even allow for the little bit that the article stated IE expected to shed light on a whole range of cosmic questions. If we always credit your style of negativity, there will never be any scientific discoveries, therefore we may as well just stop teaching science at all. Think of how much that will save.

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Gregg, Duncan BC, Canada — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 04:52:22 GMT

Pure research is never a waste of money. A greater understanding of our world and universe is to be gained from the LHC and other such facilities. The applied technologies will follow.

Anyone who has ever had a PET (positron emission temography) scan owes it to the world of particle physics. To name just one application.

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john doe, seattle, wash. — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 05:25:51 GMT

due to population growth, the suns' life span and the earth's depleting resourses, the time to invest in our future is now, traveling at the speed of light will most certainly be a necessity in a decade or two, understanding the pitfalls of intergalatic travel before hand is not unreasonable, besides money is only numbers, space travel is endless hope

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Sad With People — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 05:26:34 GMT

Regina -> understanding what makes up the universe is pretty important dont you think? Electrons are small, they brought us electricity. The whole point is to "look under the hood" and what everything is made of so we can better understand and master it. Knowledge is power.

Tom... No. Its not the point. Wikipedia might be a good start mate.

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Chris, Ct — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 05:31:09 GMT

While I agree that the LHC is comsuming a lot of money, and likely will for some time, we cannot abandon science and our quest and thirst for knowledge.

As for cars running on water and air ... these are both technologies that are happening right now, in our time. Fuel cells will change the way we think about mobile propulsion and the air car? The technology, concept and prototypes are already on the road from a company named Motor Development International http://www.mdi.lu/english/

The future isn't just coming ... it's here and happening around us every day.

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Edgar, Modesto, California — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 05:45:42 GMT

Regardless of money being spent it is important work being done here for mankind. We tend to look at the short instant gratification results of life. The general public might think, "what is in it for me?" But the truth of the matter is that we have the potential to answer a few of the univers' mysteries that could potentially be used for the benefit and survival of mankind on the very long run. If we could understand extra dimensions, dark matter, and black holes we could potentially unleash energy sources untapped by before. The work of Einstein, Tesla, Plank, Newton, Galileo and many others was always questioned and critisized. But where would we be if not for the fact that our high tech society stands of the shoulders of such giants?

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Stu — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 05:46:48 GMT

So... the testing will continue until 2010. One delay after another. They could easily continue until December. Could it be a coincidence that the Mayan calendar ends in December 2010?

I'm just saying... :)

[ALAN ADDS: Actually, I think the doomsday date is 2012, but it really doesn't make any difference because the Mayan calendar thing is pretty bogus whether it's 2010 or 2012.]

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Jay, Seattle WA — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 05:56:15 GMT

Well first, this was funded by EU... so why should Americans care? Second, if we put science on hold every time there is a financial downturn we would still believe the Earth was flat. Please do research on what the LHC is for [...]

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Bruce Gee — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 05:59:31 GMT

To the first two posters: please bear in mind that, for the first fifty years or so of knowledge about electricity when folks like Franklin and Faraday were conducting their experiments, it would have seemed EXTREMELY unlikely that electricity would EVER have any practical applications. This new research could easily change the world fifty years from now as much as electricity has transformed ours.

As for the risks...I'd rather run the slight risk of destruction than be part of a species that was on the verge of solving the mysteries of the universe, only to back down and say "naah."

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ryan — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 06:00:03 GMT

They say that the LHC can possibley create ultramicroscopic black holes. Are they absolutely certain that they will just "blip out of existence" ?
Sounds like something awfully risky to be playing with. Also, the machine broke down before it actually worked. Maybe god is trying to tell us something

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John — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 06:19:07 GMT

Regina everything that you use in your home, at work and at play depended on scientists conducting pure science. We do not yet know all of the implications of the LHC, but in years to come the knowledge that will be gained from the LHC will have major impacts on how people live their day to day lives. Your TV depends on an understanding of particle physics, the list goes on and on.

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wilbur — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 06:23:08 GMT

Go back to the dark ages when we had no need for knowledge and we thought we knew everything. Because that's where you outdated and scared people belong, along with scare-monger of George Noory who's on a mission to create paranoia where none needs to be. Nature has already conducted experiments far more dangerous than anything we can possibly do, but that doesn't seem to matter to some people. Find a hole in the ground and stick your head in it if you want to feel safe. The world will continue to progress, with or without you.

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Johnothan, Panama City Beach, FL — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 06:43:28 GMT

The reason they don't release a way to run cars on water or air is because it would turn the economic base of the world (Oil/Petroleum) on it's head. Personally, I'd give anyting to see something like that happen in my lifetime...

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Dave S., Los Angeles, CA — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 06:58:12 GMT

Don't be such a philistine. Scientific pursuits like this may someday solve your energy problems, create treatments for diseases, or enable us to take advantage of other climates to live. Just think that all the cool tech in your little cell phone originated in lofty science labs with equally far-flug goals like spying on our enemies from space, putting a man on the moon, etc.

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Robert, Toledo, OH — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 07:00:26 GMT

If the scientists 400 years ago had not studied the unknown, even those that didn't have any directly pinpointed practical use, we wouldn't have ANY of the technological advances we currently have. Sometimes by finding this stuff out you can put it to use...

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Tim, San Diego — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 07:10:24 GMT

Regina, Tom - you are both clearly not intellectual scholars with sound scientific backgrounds (or even basic electronic theory); I suggest you work on significant milestones in your own fields (you do possess advanced degrees don't you?) and allow these individuals to continue to pursue theirs. I for one will be eagerly anticipating the wealth of data to be analyzed from this incredible study. Do you condemn the space program? Are you afraid of disproving religion? And we are not going to be "crushed in a black hole" Tom - are you seven?

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Tim, San Diego — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 07:16:40 GMT

Oh, and $10 billion is barely enough to get you your $300 stimulus check - please notify your congressman that you would like yours to be donated toward a better use.

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wendel — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 07:31:20 GMT

let's start smashing...yeeehawwww. what are you talking about einstein, who cares about relativity and newton you're crazy focused on gravity dude, lighten up. long live science, errr intelligent design.

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Gena Gurinovich, St. Petersburg, Russia — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 08:36:46 GMT

To be honest, I do not believe this collider will ever work the way they want it to. It all looks like a nice expensive toy for scientists. What a great way to suck funds out of European governments by fooling them into this useless thing.

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John, Boulder CO — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 10:15:11 GMT

This thing has already made a black hole - one into which huge amounts of money is poured, never to be seen again! What a ridiculous waste.

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Tom Johnson, Utah — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 10:48:22 GMT

No, theres an almost infitesimal chance of forming a black hole. If a black hole was to form, it would have the mass, and therefore the gravitic pull, of the two atoms that smashed together, essentially nothing. It would do nothing but sit around for millions of years.

It would also dissipear off into interstellar space, away from earth, given the speeds it would be travelling at.

0 risk.

Regarding the cost, this thing costs, day to day, a tiny fraction of the cost of the war in Iraq. once you split the funding between the multitude of countries funding it, its a drop in the ocean for any one.

Regarding the benefits, who knows? But to the person who mentioned cars running on water or air - moving our understanding of how matter works forward can only push us closer towards solutions to our energy crisis.

There's no reason to be afraid. There's no reason to be against this. Read up on it and don't jump aboard the paranoia train. This is an amazing achievement and the only bad thing about it is they havent worked out the kinks yet.

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D, Aurora, Colorado — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 10:50:42 GMT

No, there is a possibility of making a microscopic blackhole with the LHC. And to really simplify it for those whose primary source of knowledge from black holes comes from the crappy Disney movie, that means the black hole, if it is even created will quickly evaporate, which will probably be the sign that we detect that even tells us we've got a black hole.

As for it being a waste of money, so is athletic competition, and the rest of the entertainment industry, but I don't see anyone screaming for all those worthless yahoos to give up all their money to solve the worlds problems.

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Bill T. Corning, NY — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 10:54:57 GMT

Unlike the movies things take time to fix. Better to get it right than to rush things.

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Penelope Welz, Edgewood, KY — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 11:32:46 GMT

Right on, Regina L of Michigan. As with most matters (with or without mass) in the upper eschelons of academia, there seems to be little regard for the common man or common needs. The Big Bang Machine, like Big Corporations and Big Governments, is powered only by ego. And that is extremely costly fuel, literally and figuratively.

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Eric Wang, Suwon, Korea — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 12:00:10 GMT

Regina: We don't "need" to know anything in particular. But the last 200 years of science have taught us that the more we learn, the better we live. We're hard-wired to be curious, and it's worked pretty well so far. Let's not stop dreaming in my lifetime.

And, no, the cost of LHC is <<1% of the EU's total annual budget. History also teaches us that, no, you actually cannot spend that money any better. Any sufficiently advanced society must spend a few % of its GDP on basic science to feed the next generation of tech products. The poor will always be with you, but learning enough science to, say, invent a fusion reactor just might trump all of today's ills.

Tom: No, LHC has nothing to do with "black hole" anything. It's just a particle accelerator. We plan to use it to rigorously test today's physics theories that predict various phenomena at energy levels that our older accelerators can't reach (~10^13 eV). If we're right about any one of those, it's a jackpot. If we prove them all wrong, that's great progress, too.

The "black hole" issue was just a (somewhat outlandish) counter-argument by a tiny minority of scientists who oppose the LHC and wanted us to cease all work on it. Like Greenpeace vs. Japanese/Norwegian whalers, or South Koreans united against McDonald's. IMHO, it was more scare tactic and legal filibuster than real science. Cosmic rays much, much stronger than the LHC's max output have been bombarding the Earth every day for 4.5 billion years, and we're still here.

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Josh W., Seaford, DE — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 12:24:12 GMT

Yea, I mean you guys must be right. We didn't NEED to know the earth was round, or we didn't NEED to know exactly what gravity was .... In reality, the only reason you have vaccines or cars or houses or computers with internet is that scientific research led to a broader understanding of how materials behave. This leads to more practical designs and better engineered products.

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Bob Roth — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 12:42:33 GMT

This project is simply an example of the human need to understand, discover and invent. Who now questions the use of MRI's, air travel, and irradiation of cancerous tumors.

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Rob, Rochester, NY — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 12:57:00 GMT

While a lot of money no doubt has gone in to it yes, if not for science we'd still be hiding in caves. I'm sure people said relatively the same thing when it came to space flight. Through expanding our knowledge beyond the current limits of our known logic we're opening up new possibilities and perhaps even technologies.

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Brad — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 13:01:14 GMT

Working towards understanding history and mysteries is of man's great drives. Technology is beneficial to our lives and the life of this planet.

The european community is spending huge amounts of money on alternate vehicles and medical solutions. I do believe they are already ahead of the "west" in regards to research and technology.

Thus, the ability to explore more exotic scientific boundaries.

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Ashlea, Bowling Green, Ohio — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 13:09:49 GMT

Anyblack holes the LHC makes won't be large enough to do any damage to the Earth. Plain and simple. Learn about the physics and you'll understand. As for why people need to know about this.. Well, why do people believe in religion? For answers. Scientists are seeking answers and in a way, seeking God.

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Russ, Chicago, IL — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 13:14:58 GMT

Why bother comment if you are not going to publish it. I commented yesterday on this article, primarily in response to the above comments. It is obvious to me that Regina and Tom do not have an understanding of why we do pure scientific research, and that positive and tangible knowledge can be obtained from such research that can be applied to real world problems. Our current advances against various diseases would not be possible without the technological achievements brought about by our going to the moon. Computers and the miniaturization of integrated circuit technology is a direct result of the moon shots. Go ahead and publish this dissenting view!

[ALAN ADDS: I apologize to Russ and other commenters ... I was otherwise occupied and fell behind on comment approvals.]

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Ray — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 13:16:20 GMT

science is not for cars and they are aloud to spend thier money the way they want,the discoveries from science is why we are where we are in tech and life,just sit back and enjoy the ride of discovery

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Jon, Clinton MO — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 13:20:18 GMT

We need to know what the Collider can tell us simply for technological and scientific advancement. People said it was a waste of time and money to put a man into space as well, but look at the technology we got from it, look at the products and materials that came from it that we use every day, not to mention satellite television, GPS, and weather and communication satellites. There has already been new networking technology invented just for this collider, technology that could be used someday to make your internet or home network faster.
All scientists are not the same, physicists don't usually work on curing disease, it's not their field of study, however they may discover something that the medical field could use to research a cure for anything you can think of.
I think it's an awesome machine and can't wait to see what they discover.

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Remy Bottorff — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 13:27:37 GMT

Sarcastically after reading another's comments, "Why do we need to know if man can fly? Wouldn't the money be better spent on something else like feeding the hungry or clothing the naked?" Part of what makes us human is to inquire as a priority. Animals go about their day searching for food and shelter as their priority.

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Scott Karen — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 13:32:37 GMT

I am not saying it is bad to spend money on this,.. after all look what the space station has given us. Oh wait a minute, never mind.

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WANicholson, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 13:43:21 GMT

Surely there is a bright graduate student needing a doctoral thesis out there who could collect all the comments made by the readers of Cosmic Log over a period of say five years and analyze how those comments reflect what is happening around the world.

Right now we're in the midst of a global economic meltdown and the comments on this blog are becoming more and more focused on dollars and cents issues. Why spend on this money to smash sub-atomic particles?
Build me a cheap reliable car that runs on air, etc.

Despite the downturn in the worldwide economy scientific research MUST continue. Think of all the modern wonders that we take for granted and the benefits to humanity that they engender.

Who knows what future wonders will be possible when we fully understand dark matter or exactly how our universe was created?

Personally, I am very anxious to see the LHC in operation. I am impatient to read their findings.
No, I am not a scientist and I do not claim to be able to understand a fraction of their discoveries. But it is fascinating. I am EVERYMAN and I want to know. I can't wait.

We must move forward, because we cannot move back, at least, not yet. Who knows what we'll be able to do once the LHC has answered some of our fundamental questions?

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Bob R., Oklahoma City, OK — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 13:47:45 GMT

We also don't "need" computers, or vaccines, or schools. The human race was getting along fine without all that stuff.

However, part of what makes us human is the urge to know why things happen and how things work. Once you quit caring about learning, you're not really living, are you?

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Fred, Rochelle Park, NJ — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 13:55:07 GMT

What ever happen to research for the sake of research. Of course research has a possibility of financial gain in the end but people did research and experiments to understand something. To know something unique and wonderful about the universe. The problem with research today is that it costs more money then every before. Money that can be used for other things, things that some feel is more important. But history has shown that research in one area can provide breakthroughs in another. Breakthroughs that may very well cure diseases or make a more efficient automobile. Penicillin was discovered by accident and took many years of research to refine to what we now call medicine. I've read many posts questioning why the LHC was built and what good it will do. The reason why we built it is because we don't know. We could flip the switch on and only recreate things we already know exist, we could prove some radical theory about the universe, or something entirely different. Any way you look at it we learn something, we gain an incite into the workings of the universe. If we didn't do things like this then the very way in which we are communicating wouldn't be possible. Telephones, TVs, Computers, and the Internet where all started from research. Research at the time cost money, money that could have been used for something else.

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Jim, Harrisburg, PA — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 13:55:08 GMT

Every one of the industries and services we have today were High Tech money "wasters" in the past.

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Taylor, Denver, CO — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 13:55:52 GMT

Wow, according to the last two comments, we never should have explored the moon, or ventured beneath the ocean. What a complete waste of time to investigate the fantastic phenomena that allow our miniscule selves to exist. Self-absorbed ignorance.

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Ave, Orlando, Fl — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 14:07:54 GMT

We "Need to know what dark matter is made of" for the same reasons we needed to know what was across the Atlantic centuries ago. We've been in a sort of knowledge ice-age for the last few decades... with our mastering of atom complete (which at it's time in the 30's and 40's was a FAR more expensive and audacious undertaking than the LHC) we now find ourselves at the limit of that mastery... i.e.: Nuclear power is still regarded as dangerous by the public, no solutions to nuclear waste disposal have been realized, and fusion is still at least decades away... Enter dark matter and the LHC. It is possible that new concepts and properties of sub-atomic particles may (and most agree probably will) be discovered, perhaps opening the door to solving some of those vexing probems of the nuclear age. A solid understanding of these now fringe areas of physics could even allow us to one day leave our planet. The simple fact is we don't know... and WE NEVER WILL unless poeple come together, like at LHC, and spend the money and time to figure these things out. Sheesh... I bet people would be alot less critical if they thought the LHC would bring them a cheaper Internet or a faster IPhone.

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Jim G, Gig Harbor, WA — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 14:11:04 GMT

We NEED to know what dark matter is made of because we do not know how such knowledge will benefit mankind. There are countless technologies in use every day that are based upon knowledge that did not seem any more important than our search for the understanding of dark matter. You simply do not know where the next major breakthrough is going to come from.
If people can spend hundreds of millions of dollars worshiping ancient gods we can certainly as a society afford to spend some money to expand our understanding of the universe we live in. If one truly believes that some god created this universe then one can say that we are honoring that god by studying the only thing we can be sure is created by said god.
As for the notion that "they're going to make a black hole with this thing and that's it, right?" well, rest assured that there are many more experiments they will conduct for many years going forward. This is not a one-shot machine.
Please, if you are going to comment, please at least educate yourself about this machine. It is truly an expression of all that it means to be human and is one of our greatest achievements. Think about it. The Egyptians built pyramids that in essence do nothing whatsoever to expand our knowledge; we build great machines that aid us in exploring the Universe from our own planet. Yes, even in these hard times, we can afford to do these very worthy things. Most of the money has already been spent anyway, so what difference does it make now? BTW people earned most of that money working on the project and those people bought goods and food and so on which means the various economies involved had much benefit already.

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Darrell Messbarger — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 14:39:00 GMT

Sciencophobes (?) shouldn't read these articles.

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Aly, canada — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 14:39:42 GMT

I agree with Tom, we are all here for a reason and it has taken millions of years to create. Why take a chance? I think the law or the billions of humans that live here on earth, should somehow force this thing to be destroyed.

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Serge, Atlanta, GA — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 14:46:43 GMT

The Large Hadron collider is built to help answer one of the two most fundamental questions in all of science -- in short, the question of what is the material world itself is made of and how do matter and energy interact to make nature happen on its most fundamental level. (The question of life in the Universe being the other most important one, in my opinion.) Any thought that answering this question is a waste of money is seriously misguided, and here are a few reasons why.

In the late 19th and early 20th century science in general and physics in particular were doing great progress. At that time the idea that a hard brick of matter was actually made up of what today we call atoms was not a clear idea at all, at least when compared to our understanding of atoms today.
Scientists like Albert Eisntein, Ruterford, Plank, Pauli, as well as others were at that time at the forefront of theoretical physics much like the scientists working at the LHC are today. It is because of that gang of theoretical physicists that today we understand the structure of the atom and therefore benefit on a constant basis from advancements in chemistry, medicine, computer engineering, material science, and a multitude of other fields.

The most important thing to point out here is that those scientists could not even dream of the applications that their research would one day have. They were motivated by curiosity and a desire to understand nature, and the question of how that understanding would be applied later was simply not important to them scientifically. An MRI scan uses the response of atomic nuclei to magnetic fields to create a detailed image of soft tissue in the body. A few years ago one of these scans saved my wife's life by diagnosing a treatable cancer. This scan relies on a fundamental understanding of magnetism and atomic structure, as intially postulated by the physicists Maxwell and Rutherford, respectively. However had we asked these briliant guys to design an MRI machine, they would not have been able to do it because their ideas would still have to be further developed by others over the course of several decades. At the same time, a modern engineer would not be able to design an MRI machine without relying on the theoretical work done by these early physicists.

So whenever someone asks "couldn't smart scientists be doing more useful things with all this money?" the answer is that they would not be able to do more useful things had someone not done basic scientific research first. The truth is we need both types of science. It is wasteful to focus solely on aplications or solely on basic research.

So what sorts of advancements can we expect from the work being done at CERN today? As I mentioned before, we don't know, and if we took a guess that guess would probably by missguided. One of the beautiful things about nature is that it always seems to surprise us where we least expect it!

I am sure glad Maxwell and Rutherford found the support they needed 100 years ago to condutct their research.

Serge
dieterich@chara.gsu.edu

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Dom, Philly PA — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 14:57:35 GMT

If the human race had waited for either of you to invent the automobile I believe that we would be knee deep in horse feces. Just because you cant wrap your mind around the reasons for expanding human understanding because its not something overly simple like speghetti or chewing gum doesnt mean the entire species should sit on its thumbs. Stand aside and reap the benfit of your intellectual superiors.

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David Stormer, Tokyo. — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 15:02:59 GMT

A huge number of vital scientific discoveries that have revolutionized life over the past few centuries were "accidental" in that they weren't necessarily what the experimenters were looking for. Nothing is ivory tower in science. Every piece of research is a treasure trove. The Large Hadron Collider will produce the kind and amount of knowledge that will make the initial financial outlay seem insignificant.

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Jim, Peachtree City, GA — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 15:03:19 GMT

It's through research like this that you now have cell phones that fit in your pocket, CD & DVD players on sale at Wal-Mart for $69, MP3 players the size of credit cards, digital cameras and flat screen TVs. Without this type of research, none of these would exist.
In regards to the expense, we spend over a billion dollars a month over in Iraq. So for less than the cost of one year in Iraq, we could have funded the entire construction and operation of this facility ourselves.
This facility will provide tremendous benefit to mankind in the future - I don't think anyone could make the same argument for Iraq.

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MEmphis, Tn — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 15:11:18 GMT

"Couldn't the money being used for this project be put to better use?"

I loathe this type of logic. You can be GUARANTEED that practical uses and applications of any knowledge gained by this experiment WILL be beneficial.

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Robert B., Indy — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 15:16:20 GMT

We need to know how the universe is put together for the very issues that Regina L. raises - and more. Understanding the properties of ALL matter will lead to eliminating all diseases - developing transportation systems that run on water, or air, or utilize other means that we, as of yet, have no clue about. Scientists belive that the HLC will be an effective tool to help them determine the full nature of our physical existence. When Ben Franklin discovered electricity, his discovery was of no use to his contemporaries. How would you assess the value of his discovery now?

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Martin, Orlando — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 15:30:42 GMT

"If scientists can figure out how to build a particle smasher, can't they figure out how to make cars run on water or air?" -Regina

Interestingly, if the particle collider helps elucidate the physics of high temperature plasma interactions then making cars run on air and water may well be one of the many results. Though it is not probable that the particle collider will make important comtributions to fusion research, it's not all that unlikely, either.

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Dave S. Seattle, WA — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 15:45:07 GMT

There was an old science fiction story titled "Columbus was a Dope" by Roberh Heinlein.

Who needed to sail across the Atlantic then?

You never know what will come out of basic research and if we don't continue doing this type of stuff we will indeed live in the Decline of the West!

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Willis Hill, Lebanon Oregon — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 15:49:23 GMT

Tom an Regina - Your lack of understanding of this basic research is exacly why this country is in the mess it is in. Do you use a cell phone? Surely you submitted these comments using a personal computer. Where do you think the knowledge to create these products came from. [...]

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Dan, Dallas — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 15:49:48 GMT

It's impossible to predict what applications will come from this research. The creation of fusion reactors, a way to tap into "dark energy", methods of quantum computing: all could be reality by the middle of the century from research started at CERN. The same arguments were used in going to the moon but think of all the technology we gained from that effort.

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Heather, Kingston, PA — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 15:50:07 GMT

Tom,
its not about making a black hole to gobble up the earth. its about finding out what everything is made of. and if you has read the article in its entirety, you would have read that it MAY create ultramicroscopic black holes - which they insist would blip back out of existence without harming anything. so what is the problem with learning more about space??

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Leigh — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:15:16 GMT

As long as the money didnt come from my pocket i could care less.

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Rodrigo — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:18:16 GMT

The understanding of dark matter and extra dimensions is something that will eventually happen over the course of the next 100 years, so it might as well be now. This could provide valuable information that -- though right now seems ridiculous or unnecessary -- could be invaluable in the future. Besdies, we need to confirm once and for all that we exist for reasons that CAN be explained, unlike intelligent design or divine creation.

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Mike R. — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:34:30 GMT

Scientists built the LHC in order to better understand our universe, and in hopes that maybe the answers found here would be helpful in answers to some of life and science's other tougher questions (Where the universe came from, etc.) Cars that run on water have actually been developed, it's just getting them into a state that they can be mass produced cost effectively is the problem. And as for curing diseases, it's harder than it looks. (Also, we have virologists and biologists kinda working on that, these are physicists.

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dan - Warren, MI — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:35:15 GMT

Mark your calendars folks...September 2009 headline reads: Earth sucked into giant black hole created by 'brilliant' group of global scientists with taxpayer dollars. ...doesn't this worry anyone? I can find just as many 'experts' that say that this is a BAD idea as I can find that say, "Nah, it'll be okay...don't worry...be happy!" Eat, drink and be merry...for tomorrow we die.

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Eric C, Rochester, New York — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:39:12 GMT

To Regina: Understanding why the basics of the universe is useful, not only in the fact that the knowledge in itself is something to look for, but also the potential benefits. The research being done at CERN could potentially lead to new ways of harnessing energy, or more efficient methods of transferring energy. We don't know for sure, which is why we are doing the experiments, human curiosity. As to whether the money could be better spent, that's debatable, frankly I'm biased on the issue, but I think that understanding how the universe operates in fundamental areas could help in others.

To Tom: No, they're not going to make a black hole, that's not why it was set up. There's a whole slew of experiments that can be conducted with the LHC, and making a black hole actually isn't one. As to whether a micro-blackhole would swallow the Earth, assuming it is the size of a proton, the medium it's in is a vacuum, and a few other factors, it would take 10^100 years for it to swallow the Earth. That's assuming Dr Hawking is wrong. The risk is miniscule, and well worth the rewards should we be able to actually observe a black hole.

Alan, thanks for the updates, I have to say I enjoy reading the stuff you write on physics and astronomy. Considering I decided to major in this stuff, I find it very interesting.

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Jeremy, Albany, NY — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:47:07 GMT

The more we understand matter, the more we can accomplish with it. If we learn how matter works to the point where we can use physics to alter molecules and atoms, then who's to say that in 50 years we can't have 'garbage matter' being transformed directly into usable materials? A bit 'Star Trek', but science fiction keeps often being science future.

What happens when these scientists learn how to take a shovel full of dust and dirt and transform it into edible grains, helping end world hunger? Is that not worth *trying* for?

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Danny, SLC, UT — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:52:21 GMT

Tom and Regina, to answer your questions and respond to your comments I would like to inform you of a couple things. Regina, this project has more to do than finding out what dark matter is or finding the Higgs Boson etc. The data that is received will most likely lead to the development of technologies with the some of the more practical uses that you list such as energy development or medical technologies. The thing with science is that while searching for one specific answer you are guaranteed to find out many things you weren't looking for, and thats the beauty of it. Do you think that putting men on the moon was the only thing that was accomplished with those missions?
And Tom, there is no way that a black hole is going to magically appear and kill us all. That idea is absurd enough that the court case on it was thrown out as soon as it hit the desk.
I have to say that I can't wait for the LHC to be up and running again. It's a project that was worth every penny that was spent on it and I am very excited to start hearing results from all of the data we'll be getting from it. Thanks for the update Alan!

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Fred — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:12:25 GMT

Connect the dots of global warming & tsunami's to particle accellerators...

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Peter, Boston MA — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:13:44 GMT

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Travis, Alexandria, VA — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:17:40 GMT

Tom and Regina! America should be so lucky as to have our own collider. This is European! America's payment into this program is minimal. The collider is one piece of the 'progress' puzzle. Countries that have invested will see the effects of the investment in 5-100 years. Americans' lack of fiscal discipline and need for the quick buck cannot fathom what opportunity has been lost by not investing in this monumental project. I'm glad Europe still looks to the future!

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Marty Moline, IL — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:23:50 GMT

Regina, the reason is simple. Human beings have all their eggs in one basket. Earth is that basket. Among the possible discoveries are improved propulsion systems for traversing space. Another big possibility is finally understanding gravity and how gravity could be manipulated. If a E.L.E. was to happen at this point in time or if global warming/cooling happens to the extreme extent possible, we will need an outlet or backup plan. Current technology would take around 60 to 80 YEARS to get to the closest system that would possibly have a habitable planet and it would take 32 years+ for a signal to come back from there. This is not really a viable solution. We have to explore microphysics to try to gain the advances that we need. Life isn't science fiction. We don't have warp drive in real life. We have to do things the hard way.

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Kim Falk,Lorain,Ohio — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:29:07 GMT

If you are ignorant and have no concepts, ideas, or knowledge of the science that they are attempting to do at the collider, you should really just be quiet. Remember the old adage, "It is better to remain silent and thought ignorant, than to open one's mouth and prove it."

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Alway, Ohio — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:38:42 GMT

Basic research such as this is the reason for many of the technological advances you use on a daily basis. The screen you are reading this on, no matter if it is CRT, LCD, plasma, or OLED, was intially created by basic science research such as this project. In short, no the money could not be put to better use. The more we understand about the universe in which we live, the better our lives will be. These experiments are essentially a continuation of the physics research which gave us essentially everything in the modern world. Without basic research such as this, we would not be in a recession. We would be in a new dark age.

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Patrick, High Ridge, Missouri — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:46:35 GMT

It is Science and Research that brought you all of
the nice things in life. Quitcherbellyaching and
focus on what you feel is important and then do it.
That is what these folks are doing. And if you
haven't noticed they do have cars that run on water
and air and have created many vaccines for illness'
that you have and haven't heard of. It all comes
down to Science and Research, which is what this
Laboratory is about

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J.Marshal E.Wenatchee Wash. — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:59:09 GMT

I like that we are constantly looking to learn and explore new things....but I believe the scientific community needs to explain the real world benefits from learning these things in the first place. Personally I would rather see the money spent on human space flight and colonization of another world.

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Brandon S. Syracuse, NY — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 18:01:07 GMT

Responding to Regina L, the scientific advances that this particle smasher could provide will have far reaching effects and could in fact help make cars run and many other beneficial effects.

Without physics we would not have computers or many modern medical dianostic machines.

The level of understanding that the collider might provide could improve our lives in profound ways.

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Jake Rapid City,SD — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 18:06:48 GMT

Many people critisize this endevour as a waste of time an money. Generally thay are the uneducated who can't get their minds around physics or can't see far enough into the future to see a return on the investment.

I bet people even critisized Jonas Salk as he worked on the Polio Vaccine.

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j9 — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 18:24:26 GMT

Regina L -- I'm pretty sure somebody told a guy named H. Ford to not bother with his experiments too.

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Dan Stewart — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 18:28:01 GMT

If you would want to ever go to the stars (like in Star Trek) this is the way to do it.

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Jason Fontaine, League City, Texas — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 18:32:03 GMT

We could always continue KNOWING the world is flat and the sun revolves around us...and money would still be spent. How absolutely abusrd that questions should arise over a simple pursuit of knowledge. Why and how humanity acheived this brief level of success is the greatest lotto win in the annals of creationalism!

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Tim H. Illinois — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 18:37:35 GMT

Regina, as a high energy physicist, I will tell you that "we" do not work on finding cures for disease, or work to find a way to make cars run on water. "We" work to discover the origin of life, and why any of "this" started. There are other scientist that deal with those issues. Their funding is quite a bit larger than ours!

Tom, there is a small possibility that we could create a black hole. The size of it would be very tiny. Think of the subatomic scale. On top of that, they would last for a short time; like a tenth of a billionth of a second. You have no need to worry.

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DLP, British Columbia, Canada — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 18:40:47 GMT

Comments like the one made by Regina L only go to show the ignorance of many people. She wants money spent on trying to make cars run on water or air or perhaps to find cures for diseases. The only way I can see this happening is to explore new areas, as the collider is designed to do. You never know what may be discovered in the experiments that will take place. They may even come up with a cure for stupidity.

DLP

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SSgt Myhra, Vandenberg AFB, CA — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 18:47:05 GMT

You can be overly critical of the money spent on particle accelerators all that you please to. But don't neglect the very fact that the exceedingly progressive results you've seen with microchip technology, semiconducting, molecular modulation, medical gamma ray therapy for a various array of conditions, and it is leading to advances that may lead to incineration of nuclear waste material.

The future of nanotechnology and particle/nuclear physics relies on the continued advance of these sort of projects as well. Try not to be so narrow minded, nor short sided with science.

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Zack K, Minneapolis, MN — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 19:03:09 GMT

I have read many of the articles regarding CERN and this LHC. I agree with Regina, couldn't this money be put to better use? I understand the quest for knowledge and that the knowledge gained from this research could open up whole new areas of technology. I just wish they could offer some concrete examples/possibilities of they may apply this knowledge to that will effect the other 6.5 billion people on this planet. One last question, what happens if they cannot figure out the answers to these questions? Waste another 10 billion and more on larger one elsewhere?

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The British R coming! Boston, MA — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 19:32:55 GMT

Ok, to answer Regina's question if they understand what makes up dark matter or find a new dimension maybe they can reproduce it and use it to solve other questions like cars that run on water or create new medicines. To answer Tom, the goal is NOT to make a black hole. They are not going to disassemble it after one test either.

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Alex H., Salt Lake City, Utah — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 19:35:58 GMT

It's a good thing that Regina wasn't around to discourage the research done by Maxwell in the 19th century regarding how electrical waves interact wtih magnetic waves. It was a very odd, and abstract idea back then. But if it were not for Maxwell's equations, we may not have electricity--no computers, no internet, no electric lights, no x-ray machines, , nothing! Investigations on the cutting edge of science offer the greatest hope for revolutionizing our world. Just as Maxwell, and his predecessors did.

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S.B. Stein E.B. NJ — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 20:08:39 GMT

Doing this kind of research, Regina, should give us a more basic understanding of what the galaxy (or universe) is made of. It should give us a better idea of the formation and where things are going.

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George, Fairfax VA — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 20:11:09 GMT

Mankind always has the choice to stop science and stick our heads in the sand. You could have made that "why do we need to know?" argument at every bit of research in the past 100 years. The problem is you never know which discovery provides the key for the next big improvement in our lives. So, some scientists need to look out a few years, and some focus on immediate tactical problems which you find more relevant. But if you take the time to look at the discovery process, you find that it is not neat and linear – a discovery over here enables an unrelated discovery over there – sometimes you have dead ends – sometimes it crosses generations. Do some research and verify this for yourself. Don’t constraint science to your immediate issues.

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Greg Banes, Klamath Falls Oregon — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 20:23:29 GMT

We can already Make a car Run On Water (H2) but it is Extremely Inefficient to make and store H2 under pressure, you need a tank rated for over 10,000 psi and a modified Internal combustion Engine or Fuel cell to use it. Most Hydrogen is currently made from Natural gas with the carbon burned and released as CO2. Rough guess as to make and compress Hydrogen it would take twice as much energy as what you would get out when you burn it. It would make much more sense just to modify an existing car to burn natural Gas (We have already done this!). One side effect of Hydrogen is it makes Metal Brittle (Hydrogen is so small that it will penetrate metal and disturbed the metallic matrix weakening it). The United States does not have the Fuel cells or infrastructure to utilize Hydrogen as a fuel for cars at this time. The American public needs to educate them selves on the real issues and alternatives regarding Alternative Energy.

As far as a car that runs on compressed air we already have a company working on that with working models just do an internet search for more information.

The Real Purpose of the LHC is to smash Protons (Atomic Nucleus) together and study the debris (Subatomic Particles) to prove or disprove current Subatomic Theory. The Physicists’ think that there is enough energy in the collisions to make microscopic black holes and hope to find some evidence in the resulting data. Also there are some Scientists who want to study what the universe was like Just after the big bang and how the universe developed and why, using the LHC. The Funding has already been cut from American’s Fermi lab and I believe it is set to close in 2010. America has only a small investment in the European CERNS LHC Facility, it being a multi-international collaboration if we don’t get our act together American Science will be left behind by the International community. We have no way to know what useful applications will come out of the LHC.

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Bill, Newport Beach, CA — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 20:28:12 GMT

Tom & Regina... if either of you have a cell phone or use a PC, that is the most recognizable proof that our understanding of Physics must continue. All contemporary hand held computing media (GPS, LoJack, your LCD TV, etc.) are products of Physics research - and countless other modern day miracles in all aspects of life (MRI machines, cutting edge prosthetics, the reality of heart bypass operations - to continue). The sad state of affairs is that Physics research is probably only about 3% - 5% of what is should really be. The CERN project budget is dwarfed by what our governments routinely 'piss' away every year on pork barrel spending and just plain ineptitude and lack of oversight in 'giveaway' programs that produce no advances in our socialogical infrastructure. Just think about the possibilities... someday, each of us might have our own black hole ;-).

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Anthony, Tampa FL — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 20:33:02 GMT

While this may sound like an expensive and pointless project, the discoveries that the scientists make could lead to cures to diseases, alternate fuel sources, and so on.

Let's not forget that the Space program, which was an expensive project as well, brought us many of the advances in medical and technology that we enjoy today.

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Pat — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 21:13:42 GMT

Regina,
It would be next to impossible to cut exploration of a single aspect of science and expect to see an equal or better return in another. The people that know about particle physics are not the same people that know propulsion(cars on water/air etc), or food sciences. Cutting space exploration will not save the hungry, and cutting LHC will not give us clean energy or cures. What if the LHC experiements lead to nearly free energy, or exotic materials that ensure mankinds survival in the future?
The lessons we hope to learn from (all) experiements is where progress comes from, if you kill science you kill progress.

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Bill, Seattle, WA — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 22:21:20 GMT

This research is very important. Funny little things happen when you get that many smart people in one place for a sustained period of time. They create all kinds of interesting and useful things that have nothing to do with the research they are conduction.

Tim Berners-Lee, while at CERN, invented hyper text transport protocol to allow mutiple computers share a common language and thus share data; more widely known as the Internet.

Sadly, the Internet sometimes comes up with carbon based bipedel life forms like Regina and Tom.

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Mark J. Dinkel — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 22:38:56 GMT

Anyone who believes the LHC will not create black holes needs to read this article describing the production rate at one black hole every second: http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/hep-th/pdf/0205/0205205v1.pdf

The questions that remain are:

1. Is Hawking's evaporation rate correct? Remember,
Hawking admitted he was wrong about the information paradox surrounding black holes and announced his evaporation theory to explain why information is not lost in black holes.

See http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/
2004/07/21/hawking040721.html

Could he also be wrong on black hole decay??

2. What happens when the black hole evaporates completely? There is some suggestion it is accompanied by a spectacular release of energy.

While it is important to remember that it was neither uncertainty, parallel universes nor poisonous gas but, rather, human curiosity that killed Schrodinger's cat, any risks posed by the LHC are greatly outweighed by the knowledge and understanding it will impart. We are building an oracle that will will open a window to the unknown.

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Frank Glover, Rochester, NY — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 23:09:52 GMT

"Are you kidding me? This piece of junk will never work! It's only been job security for a bunch of morons who have people fooled into thinking that "they" (the scientists involved) are smart and are really doing something productive.It's a waste of time and money cause the next time they start it up it will fail again."

Hmm. Are you under the impression that this is the very first and only subatomic particle accelerator that's ever been built? Did those not function? Is it possible that they're had occasional engineering problems, that made no headlines, because those machines have never been accused of potentially creating Earth-destroying black holes?

(Someone above even went as far as to suggest all of 'God's creation' is at risk...I guess no one else in the entire Universe has created a comparable machine, either.)

"They don't know what they're doing."

Have you any valid engineering suggestions that they might have missed? Have you any experience with such machines? Or do *you* know what you're saying?

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Frank Hardy, Anchorage, Alaska — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 00:42:42 GMT

Lets see. LHC cost 10 billion dollars, more or less. The Iraq war, (alone) has cost 600 TRILLION dollars to date, and the number is increasing with each passing second. - and that's just the money we KNOW about. Oh, imagine, just imagine, if all that money had been "wasted" on, oh say, education, health care, cancer research, eradicating malaria, etc... How many LHCs could that have built? How many research projects been funded? The LHC will do many things, but it will not destroy the planet, and I am as sure of that as I am that the sun will rise tomorrow. I'm not impressed by possibilities calculated using hypothesis which have so far produced zero in the way of theoretically testable anything. (aka-string theory)
I say spend 100 billion on science, and make the world a better place.

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R., IL — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 00:45:41 GMT

Um, has anyone stopped to think that the comments from Regina and Tom might just be some one trying to be provocative and start a dialogue uproar? I half think that is often the case.

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Don Boyd Coos Bay Or. — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 03:08:09 GMT

Don. Hey i am all for outer space research no question there is life out there some where,But please lets get a grip on the problems at hand the billions spent for this project why over the top,we have the teck. to make electric cars,us humans are going to be on the endangered spices list sooner then you think?

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Joe, Minneapolis, MN — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 05:01:51 GMT

Regina: Funny thing, usually, in order to research certain things, you need tools. Well, the LHC is just that. You can come up with ideas, but you need something to test those ideas.
Tom: I don't know if it's that you're just not reading what some people have to say, or if you're playing ignorant, but realize this, creating black holes is only 1 out of numerous things that will happen in using the LHC. If you took the time to learn a bit more about physics, you might learn that black holes evaporate, meaning their mass converts to energy and spins off into nothing. On a microscopic level, this is almost instantly. So there is REALLY NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT.

Please take the time to understand the concepts people are talking about before you try to make a respectable reply.

Also, I'm glad there are many people in here defending the LHC. I hear quite a bit about people attacking the purpose of it and I wish people would actually take the time to learn a thing or two before critiqueing it.

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Tyler, Jackson, CA — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 05:06:58 GMT

i think this is one of the best things we have done in scientific research. the possibilities are endless. hopefully this will lead to something like the discovery of wormholes or "slipspace." we could really use that to mankinds advantage of the final frontier. i say go with it 100%

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James Bejjani, Merrylands, Sydney — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 06:36:00 GMT

i don't understand why do you have to do this type of experiment. This is not science at all. If you are taking this extremely dangerous risk then why do you need to do it? Whats the point of doing this? Everyone on this planet is at risk. There are 6.7 billion people in the world and you are taking this risk. Scientists have to think about other people. Not just themselves. I guess people all around the world would not like it to be sucked into a black hole. I guess you Shouldn't do this experiment at all. All this money you spent on this atom-smasher is wasted badly. We know this expirement is exciting but it's dangerous to us if you get this wrong. Last year in my science class everyone was talking about the LHC. I've heard on the news they've successed it but when i heard about how it broke down i was extremely shocked. I'm so worried about this experiment. I love science but i don't like this type of science. It's gone too far. Scientists know there was a Big Bang. Then why do you have to do this? I've got a book about Astronomy. And they have something about the Big Bang and it said a spacecraft called COBE have sent back information that suggests there was a Big Bang. Is that true Alan? Everyone in my family says that the universe is an amazing place. I hope that they get this experiment right. I wish them all the best.

[ALAN ADDS: James, reproducing the conditions that came just after the big bang is just one of the experiments being planned for the LHC (this has mostly to do with the ALICE experiment, which uses heavy ions and follows an earlier experiment called RHIC, which Walter Wagner also challenged on similar grounds, but which has proceeded without incident). The experiments that scientists are most looking forward to have to do with explaining the nature of particle mass and dark matter. This is basic science, but if this inquiry follows the usual route, there will be spin-off technologies relating perhaps to energy or medicine, or at least new ways to probe the universe. For example, I could imagine a dark-matter sensor that could serve as the foundation for new telescopes or X-ray-like detectors. (I totally just made that up.) For more information on the LHC, you could check our special report, http://lhc.msnbc.com ... and for more information on COBE, there is this story: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15113168/ ... plus this: http://lambda.gsfc.nasa.gov/product/cobe/ ... and of course there's always Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COBE]

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Alex, Clear lake, Iowa — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 15:23:09 GMT

Gosh i love me some LHC. It truely is a depressing thought that it will take so long to get it up and running again.
And lets put to rest that the point of this thing is NOT to create black holes, there's nothing to gain from doing that. They will most likely pop up, on an incredibly tiny scale, and immediately evaporate.
And if it does destroy us all, well gosh, i guess you pessimists were right. Congratulations, and i'll see you on the other side.

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Steve , Boston MA — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 19:08:44 GMT

Is it possible that the big bang was created by people messing around with huge particle smashers? Even more inriguing is the question of whather the big bang was created by THESE people messing around with THIS husge particle smasher and we are just travelling back down that same timeline (or perhaps an identical timeline in another dimension?). I can;t answer these questions because I am not a Physicist but perhaps these people at CERN will some day ... if not I can always wait for it to be revealed on Lost ... perhaps the Orchid Station is a large Hadron Collider built by the Dharma Initiative?

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Rick, Virginia — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 19:19:54 GMT

To the Luddites (google it) who write the LHC is a waste of (fill in the blank), won't work, etc.
Your inability to appreciate the countless benefits of basic scientific research is very sad.
As one blogger pointed out...without basic research you wouldn't have been able to read about the project, let alone comment on it.
Agggh.

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Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 19:56:52 GMT

Fix your stupid problems, stop worrying and light this candle !

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Sam — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 20:52:29 GMT

I hear from scientists that black holes can even devour light and anything in its path, now as you can read, the collision can make black holes. there is no point of this if it going to make black holes. what are you trying to do, kill us? First off you cant even explain what really a black hole is. Have you seen one? I think this is wrong and should be stopped. I was reading and there is a lot of comparing with diffrent object or elements, but this is off the scale. what happens when two things collide?

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James Bejjani, Merrylands, Sydney — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 07:20:54 GMT

so Alan why is the world going to end in 2012? some people believe that in the bible codes they said it will end in 2012. but some people believed that the world would've ended in 2000. but that was 9 years ago. and now they said 2012. thats only 3 years away. is the LHC got to do with the year 2012 or not?

[ALAN ADDS: No, this 2012 thing is as bogus as the 2000/2001 thing was ...]

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David, Morristown NJ — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 22:18:35 GMT

The history of particle physics is intimately tied to nuclear physics; the development of the large scale weapons and alternate energy sources. Basic research is what science is all about and without it new technologies cannot be produced. These same arguments were probably used to attack quantum mechanics and experiments designed to probe particle wave duality. In the end this field led to the semi conductor industry. The world as we know would not exist without support for fundamental basic research. Proof of a viable technology cannot be a prerequisite of basic research any more than the promise of a discovery could be a prerequisite for an exploration through the rain forest or the search for uncharted islands. We need to explore the limits of our understanding of nature to discover what's out there. We cannot demand that nature prove that it should be discovered. As for money, etc. The NEED or DESIRE for a collider has caused the evolution of new branches of engineering and specialized technical labor. We are putting people to work.

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Frank Glover, Rochester, NY — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 22:59:07 GMT

"Is it possible that the big bang was created by people messing around with huge particle smashers?"

If that's so, then because space and time themselves began with the Big Bang (it was not an event in pre-existing empty space) they'd have to be entities completely outside this Universe, so you can thank them for your existence...

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Joe — Fri, 13 Feb 2009 01:21:14 GMT

Who invited the guy asking about the 2012 prophecies? If you really want to know, yes the Mayan Cycle Calander ends on Dec. 21, 2012. Yes, some other religious fanatics have also linked other books to the same date, which is hearsay. The only scientific probability is pole shifting, in which the Earth's North and South Poles flip. This can cause some havoc on Earth, but there is debate about how long it takes for pole shift to occur. Some have said in a matter of a few hours to days, others have said it takes several millenia to complete.

Whether or not the world is going to end, who cares, just have fun while your hear. Stop worrying about what you can't control. Life is just so much more fun that way!!

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luis m — Sat, 14 Feb 2009 02:39:50 GMT

What people don't seem to understand is that this money being spent is supporting legions of workers. As to the benefits material sciences will benefit greatly.

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ric — Sat, 14 Feb 2009 15:42:59 GMT

if this project will show the exact nature of the things around us then it will be benefited mankind for the next thousand years....

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Pat Cosgrove — Sun, 15 Feb 2009 15:12:43 GMT

I say fire this thing up and take it for a test drive...I hope it works and we learn the secrets of the universe. Good Luck Guys!

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mike copo — Wed, 20 May 2009 19:25:59 GMT

here we go LHC!