How evolution evolved

Larry Williams, Modesto, CA — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 17:19:25 GMT

THe superiority of Evolutionary Theory has been demonstrated time and time again. Yet in a society that needs more educated people we see Religious Groups trying to undermine progress in the name of their "god".

How evolution evolved

Dr. Darin R. Molnar, Gresham, Oregon — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 17:35:43 GMT

I'd like to respond to Bowler's comment:

"But if we accept science's power to upset the traditional foundations of how we think about the world, we should also accept its potential to interact with moral values."

I submit that the very act of deciding to utilize the methods and techniques of a scientific approach to understanding our world is a values-based choice. Other ways of viewing the world exist. The choice of using science over, say, mysticism is made based upon our personal values and we should not be surprised when outcomes produced by our chosen approach affect and are affected by a socially constructed morality.

In the end, the application and practice of these outcomes will always be accomplished in whatever morality matrix we find ourselves. We should never be surprised when our observations, regardless of the chosen epistemological approach, bump up against moral guidelines. This constraint is necessary and unavoidable - and not a bad thing at all.

How evolution evolved

Alexander, Ontario, Ny — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 17:36:23 GMT

People try to blame Darwinism for Hitler and Stalins tatics but it's truly ridiculous and shows how little they actually understand about the tenants of Darwinism. The characteristics required for survival are extremely complex, and if anything, Darwinism demonstrates why Nazism and Communism failed. Hitler and Stalin may have tried to use Darwinism to explain what they were doing, but just like Jim Jones used Christianity to explain his tactics, they had a complete misunderstanding of the concept. If they had understood that it is not simple strength, but strength combined with a relationship with the enviornment around you, they never would have created the atrocities they did. Instead they tried to use brute strength to come out on top, and it caused the rest of the world to react against them, just like Darwinism said they would, and so they lost.

How evolution evolved

Corey G, Houma LA — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 17:41:55 GMT

Evolution is one of the most powerful tools we have for understanding the natural order of our planet. So many forms of live that are completely dependent on one another. Humans are probably the only species not subjected to the trials of evolution anymore. Maybe we are but we just don't know it? It's upsetting to me that some are so opposed to the idea. Many strict Christians consider evolution to be false even though the concept has been proven time and time again. I am a Christian, but I have to accept something when the evidence supports it. Evolution does not disprove a higher power! I think it just gives us a tiny glimpse into his methods. I hope people in the future are more open minded to new concepts.

How evolution evolved

Charles F. Toney, Plano, Texas — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 17:44:47 GMT

If Someone out there created you, and hasn't given you the ability to know that He created you, how would you know He created you?

Maybe the same Someone who put those hundreds of billions of Suns in each of those hundred billion galaxies we can see out there with the Hubble telescope?

How evolution evolved

E Nelson, Louisville KY — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 17:46:00 GMT

Remember everyone: there is no such thing as the "Theory of Evolution." If you have trouble believing this, please refer to Darwin's work "On the Origin of Species." It contains absolutely no mention of any "Theory of Evolution." Extra credit to those who know Darwin's actual theory and why this theory has been falsely renamed and misrepresented by religious interests.

How evolution evolved

Ron Honolulu, HI — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 17:49:30 GMT

Still and will always be a theory. Everything we know has an intelligent designer.
Example: The article you just wrote on the subject. If I thought the words appeared in just the right order being grammatically correct, as well as conveying a coherent thought, were pure chance, I would be labeled insane. Now take life with all its complexities and think, could all of this have been by chance? Even a toothpick needs a designer and an intelligent on at that.

How evolution evolved

Hiram, Rosamond, Ca — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 17:52:18 GMT

ON the question of moral interaction, we have to ask where the moral values came from in the first place. If we look at the natural world there are no moral values only the laws of nature. For instance our herding nature tells us to stick together for the good of the group, yet our sruvival nature tells us to do everything we can to survive. If a herd of Zebras are attacked they group together to protect the whole, yet if a lame Zebra falls behind it dies and the others keep running. If a friend or a loved one fails to come out of a burning building we will run in and save them. This completely overrides our survival nature. we have to ask why is that? Could there be some outside force that has put this conscience into our hearts?

In the second hlaf of this article they discuss the way life began. We have theory after theory of what the earth was like in the past and what was there to start life. We use todays observations to tell us about the past. We have no idea what was there, just when we think we know something comes along and changes, we then change all of our theories to fit that. A set of scientist at Scripps "built" a set of replicating RNA. So we are showing proof that it takes an intelligent source to create life. The odds of any of this happening by chance are astronomical. Most researchers who try and increase science for the good of mankind could care less about evolution - it has nothing to do with the outcome of any experiment they do. They do what they do for the good of mankind. We spend way too much time trying to prove God does not exist instead of trying to enjoy and discover the wonders of the world He created.

How evolution evolved

Will Forsythe — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 18:00:39 GMT

The concept that humans, as complex and perfect as they are, found their beginnings in some random, accidental primordial soup is too fantastic to be believed. Larry Williams claims that intelligent people believe in evolution and stupid people believe in God but I can't think of more ridiculous concept than the idea that the Earth and the universe are the product of one big accident.

How evolution evolved

Oscar, Toronto, ON — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 18:04:08 GMT

One of these days someone should write a new book:

Darwin: The Origin of Idiots!

How anyone can take a look at the human body and think that evolution can come up (by chance) with intelligent design, is beyond me!

On the other hand it is no surprise that 'stupid' scientists cannot deal with 'intelligent' design.

Creationism is a religion as it takes an enormous amount of faith (and fiction, mind you) to believe it!

How evolution evolved

Daryl J Williams — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 18:07:38 GMT

Evolution is a theory just like gravity is a theory; being a "theory" doesn't mean it isn't established fact. All the work in the last twenty years in microbiology, genetics, and DNA has confirmed the process, and most school textbooks are far out-of-date in this.

How evolution evolved

ibsen paredes camacho merida venezuela — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 18:13:45 GMT

i personally believe, darwinism theory not only was but IS true and more alive than ever, we see it in every science´s experiment today, and as a non scientist person is difficult for me to believe we were created and dropped on earth like a seed or something, religions have tried to explaine it trought creation theory to relieve that natural inquire we all have in our minds, but is far more believable for me that life as we know it has came from a scientific phenomenon, and we are so young in this planet or live recepient nest we have conveniently called earth that maybe there is a long path to walk to find the absolut true behind these theories, in the meantime i will still happy to know there is a million researchers working. one theory is scientyfic and the other is moral. there is an abysm between those two and will never matched.

How evolution evolved

Steven Albee-Scott, Logan, UT — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 18:15:15 GMT

As an evolutionary biologist, I find the discussion of the theory of evolution different then the reality of the Theory of evolution. As an epistemological structure, a theory in science is an emergent property that has nothing to do with naming conventions or belief structures. A theory supplies us with the best approximation of the actual physical parameters associated with the process in question. A theory is a summation of tested hypotheses. You can reject a hypothesis, but that simply changes the understanding of the theory. In other words, evolution is the result of physical interactions and the theory of evolution is our best approximation of those physical interactions. People may deny that it is a process, but biological interactions and physical laws are reality and no amount of grousing about will change that reality.

How evolution evolved

marty g. dupo, Il — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 18:16:33 GMT

hey, perhaps we're all wrong. maybe ape came from man?

How evolution evolved

mike, albany, ny — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 18:25:06 GMT

The main issue is still one of semantics.
To the average person the term theory means some unproven untested concept. In science, it simply doesn't mean that at all.
It's funny how the same people who continue to make those uneducated statements about evolution just being a theory so it has no real standing don't seem to have any problem with the theories of gravity or magnetism, or other physical forces.

How evolution evolved

Emily, Kansas City, KS — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 18:27:45 GMT

Hiram wrote, "If a friend or a loved one fails to come out of a burning building we will run in and save them. This completely overrides our survival nature. we have to ask why is that? Could there be some outside force that has put this conscience into our hearts?"

This is called altruism- doing something for someone else even though it may gain you nothing or may cost you something (even your life) in the process.

Altruism is expressed in animals other than humans. There are many documented cases in other primates. But by being altruistic and the ability to have language to express original idea and thought is what many believe makes an animal human.

We are all animals, some animals are just more "advanced" than others.

How evolution evolved

Emerson, South Hadley, MA — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 18:27:55 GMT

Mention evolution, and the first comment that comes is someone who just has to attack God. That's OK, He worked through evolution, and His existence doesn't depend on our opinions. I suppose you don't believe in a "Big Bang" ... aka "In the beginning God created"

How evolution evolved

OneVoice, Frederick MD — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 18:37:55 GMT

Time and time again I read a wonderful science article about how someone has discovered, identified or create something new. Their only aim being to add to the body of knowledge posessed by our species. As is normal, they or others firther expound on this discovery and hypothesize how this could have contributed to that or how this could explain that. This is all wonderfull and is a credit to humanity and our thirst for knowledge.

Yet time and time again, I see comment after comment from people who criticize this work solely because it indicated that something "could" have happened without seemingly divine intervention. We must admit that a thousand years ago, the spring rains, the winter snows and all manner of diseases and catastrophies were, by and large, considered to have required a superior intervention to cause or prevent. People prayed to be spared from the plague or to have rain come down on their crops. Most educated people, I think, rely more on their doctor for medical advice and seek out the Weather Channel for their forcasting, yet there are still so many who would "kill the messenger" rather than accept that the dogma the've inhereted from their ancestors is again shown to be flawed - or at least misunderstood.

If something could be intelligently designed, does that, in any way, provide evidence that it was intelligently designed?

How evolution evolved

Paul — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 18:38:06 GMT

God created evolution! Simple! so there!

How evolution evolved

Ben Cook, Memphis, TN — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 18:41:13 GMT

I was reading over this article and thought about some things here. I am a Christian, but I truly believe God's process of Creation was Evolution. The Bible has been translated so many times its pitiful and along the way, it only reads as those who translated its last writing and for those to understand in the way of the newest translation. The same for history - it is always written by the victor, not the defeated.

In the Book of Genesis, Chapter One, passage 14-18, God did not truly create the difference between day and night until the fourth day and if this is the case as written, then what were the three "days" before that timeframe?

The Bible in this situation is translated so that man/woman can try to understand time. It is no different than one knowing what exactly $1000 dollars looks like and maybe those privy to actually know what $100k looks like, but try to imagine what $1M actually looks like - most of us can't and we only understand the number in this case. But for many, we either accept the number science has provided us or we balk at it.

In my understanding and to not take away from anything written in scripture, I wholly believe God created this world, this space, this infinite ever beyond that we all know; and His process of this Creation was Evolution - the humanic "word"
science assigned to it and from that, everything began. That loud, Big Bang heard millions of years ago only in space was either the sound of the beggining of God's waving of His wand or the sound of Him clapping his hands for the start, but everything evolved or started from there.

God gave us all brains to think with and to learn. Some are more educated than others and although I trust in God's word, I also trust in what God's creation of our brains have taught us by those who have sought, learned and came back to advise us of their findings... to me, those "days" were millions and millions and millions of years time and time again, for God has no defined "time" - only mankind does, and if He does, then how do we define "enternity" in Heaven or Hell"?

How evolution evolved

Walt Smith, Richmond, VA — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 18:46:12 GMT

There seems to be some confusion between the discrete notions of "creativity" and "intelligence" in some of these posts. One cannot make the case that intelligence is required for creation in the pure sense. Stuff is created all the time. For instance, observe the snowflakes as they fall on Seattle this year. They are individually created, each one beautiful in its own right. However, no one could reasonably argue that an intelligence is actively creating them, one by one. No, instead we can see from the emergence of crystal forms from water vapor that the Universe itself is creative. Each physical process, each chemical reaction, each is combined into a complex, creative dance of life. We anthropomorphize these creative processes and imagine that someone intelligent, someone like us, must be pulling the strings of the Universe. And this might be true, but it is not necessarily true. Our lives have a beginning, middle, and end. Our lives proceed in a vector from ignorance to intelligence, and then to dust. But the Universe may or may not have a beginning, middle, or end. We simply cannot know. And if per chance it had no beginning, then it needs no creator. It simply is.

How evolution evolved

Alfred Cantu, Vancouver BC — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 18:48:48 GMT

The truth is nobody is trying to prove or disprove if GOD exists, that's a 100% wrong question, either you belive or not (I like to think people try really hard to prove that GOD exists instead of otherwise).
The difference is DOGMA and research that's why the SCIENCE is keep changing constantly while RELIGION is the same bread and butter of a few.
The term LIFE will be challenge in a few decades and will have to be change it more than once, and as a norm, evolution and its tools and mechanisms would be changing and adapting, no matter the sense or purpose we "human" try to intaurate in it (usually we're so antrophomorphosist and egocentric as species, even we 'make' GOO to our image, instead to be in the other way around).
By definition all religions are the ONE, and the rest of them are wrong, therefore all religions are wrong, while in Science is a way to know what's real, true and confirmed by replication of data on a empiric environment (a posteriori method), but religions know only one way..the burning bush, the call from the skies, the revelation, anyone can have one..just a little bit of psicotropic drugs, chemical unbalance or damage in the brain or even a nice tumor will do it.
The only think Sciencie is saying is the universe is what it is due to millions of years and processes in place since the big bang, beyond that any moral or religious issue is irrelevant.

How evolution evolved

Kirk, Traverse City, MI — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 18:48:56 GMT

It's too bad that so many people seem to be so offended by science attempting to explain how we and our universe came to be. Scientific theories of how life began and evolved, as well as how the universe came to be are simply logical hypothesis of people who are curious enough to explore the physical evidence available to us. It seems those who claim that science has been out to disprove God's existance are usually are not scientists, but defenders of religous belief. The false notion that evolution disproves God's existance is by far the biggest reason why so many still do not accept it. I find it frustrating that such false notions continue to hinder the progress of human understanding about ourselves and our universe.

How evolution evolved

John — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 18:51:16 GMT

the foolishness of the evolutionary theory has been demonstrated time and time again, yet in a society that has a SURPLUS of educated people, we see these same trying to undermine progress in the name of their "god" (evolution)
evolution has been shown time and again that it cannot answer the questions of the beginning of life, and that it causes more confusion than answers. and yet, people so strongly oppose God as creator that they willingly blind themselves to the facts.
the fool has said in his heart that there is no God.

How evolution evolved

Bradley H. Springfield Mo. — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 18:53:16 GMT

May, might, can, could have, the aim here, certain elements might show, perhaps when, many scientist think, potential new research hopes, could show...on and on the maybes and mights go. The simple truth is...evolution is bad science. Science is what has evolved...around trying to prove a theory. In addition it remains the only theory that is taught as science fact in our scholastic system. You have postulated your theory and in 200 years have found no solid evidence to prove it. It is time we put equal amounts of time and effort into exploring other theories.

How evolution evolved

Pal S Kahlon — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 18:54:34 GMT

The seeming conflict/incompatibility (partly real, partly imagined) between religion & science is mostly confined to Judeo-Christian-Islamic religious texts.

This problem is minimal, some would argue non existent, in Hindu-Buddhist-Sikh religious texts. Going back atleast 2000-3000 BC, these texts are compatible with Darwin's & other evolutionary explanations..without having EXCLUDING God's hand or presence in creation of the Universe & life.

In short, science & religion are not incompatible or mutually exclusive, as any serious student who studies these religious texts would conclude.

The Judeo-Christian-Islamic religious texts, especially the Christians & Islamic practiced beliefs, render any chance of inter-species symbiotism, interconnectedness, interdependence of life on earth a near impossibility. Instead they keep human life as the center of the universe & all other living beings as their god's bounty for the Humans. Such has not been the design of God, the maker of universe & life, as propounded by Indian religions.

How evolution evolved

S.B. Stein E.B. NJ — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 18:56:24 GMT

The problem with comparing "Intelligent Design" and Evolution is that they aren't asking the same questions. The point that Ben Stein missed is that Evolution looks at how things changed and points to what could be possible inbetween gaps in the fossil records. "Intelligent Design" is only concerned where things started and who started things. Evolution has been so twisted to suit what people want it to say that it should be with statisitics (lies, damn lies and statistics). It is biological and has nothing to do human social interactions.

How evolution evolved

Howard Cohn, Chicago, IL. — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 18:57:13 GMT

I don't understand what all the fuss is about. Creationism and Darwinism, are NOT mutually exclusive. Maybe, Evolution was GODs plan. The good book says GOD created man in his own image; It does NOT, however, say HOW this was acomplished.

How evolution evolved

Vance Colorado Springs, CO — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:00:54 GMT

Great quote by Peter Bowler to get the mental juices flowing. Nice article. Thanks!

The discussion topic is, as I understand the author's specific invitation to comment upon...the interaction of morality and science…specifically as it apples to genetic evolution... First, it is possible to have this discussion without putting down a whole people group by using lower case “g” for God on the back end of a sentence that implies there are only two groups in the debate: Smart and Dumb based on religious faith.

I think it is a "both/and" scenario....there is clear evidence that our world is in an ions old struggle for genetic survival and that environment/power/circumstance does indeed shape our world genetically...and YET humans seem to be so self-aware and capable of reflection, planning and power to choose actions that we must discuss "how" and even "why" we came to be this way...as well as what seems to be universal in human interaction....including moral code…it’s source, relevance and implications as effected by knowledge, experience AND science.

However, if we are too pliable and subjective we may find ourselves adrift in a world that is dominated by the will or strength of whom is most powerfulor popular at the moment…to possibly only discover that in the end there was/is indeed an absolute truth that dictates right vs. wrong APART from genetic/species improvement, natural circumstances and human power.

We may, at that point,become governed (self and by others) only in the context of a contemporary power and circumstances. Is that best? Is that human? For animals we seem to be comfortable watching this occur in wild nature…how about at the next HOA meeting you find yourself enduring?

So science is helpful and well-suited to "upsetting the traditional foundations to how we think about the world... and often does lead "interact(ing) with moral values". However, that is where the baton passes to other applied approaches: Psychology, Philosophy, Law, History and yes, even Theology.

Integration is required to further the discussion.

How evolution evolved

Miss Clover — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:01:26 GMT

There is a difference between theory and fact, and the fact remains that Darwin's ideas are still theory.

For all the pontificating and railing against creationists, no evolutionist has ever been able to explain without sounding silly the source of the so-called'primordial soup.'

How evolution evolved

Thomas, Detroit, MI — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:02:44 GMT

Hiram, and to others above: It's not that science is trying to disprove the existence of God, it is just that his existence cannot be studied by any techniques. The scientific method operates by two main criteria: verifiable observations and repeatable experiments. If a supernatural being instigated this evolutionary process we humans at this time do not have any way of studying this. "Poof! A miracle occurs and life begins" cannot be acknowledged by any experiments or an observation that everyone can see. Perhaps at some point science will be able to study the influence of an omnipotent creator and its participation can be included in new theories but not at this time.
Science only works by what can be sensed and studied by individuals anywhere and at anytime. That is how Christian, Hindu, Buddist, and atheist scientists can all work amicably together on furthering our knowledge. At this time evolution has been verified numerous times using the scientfic method and is about as sure as the theory of gravity. Some may not which to agree with it but a thousand years ago many faithful were sure that the Earth was the center of the universe and the sun, moon and stars all revolved around it, but you would be hard put to find even the most religuous who still believe this today.

How evolution evolved

Bob, Tulsa, OK — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:03:40 GMT

Lets see, Evolution hints at a "primordial soup" that states we were "formed" from a series of chemicals and some reaction (Lightning?); which could be the method God used to "formed" us from dust (which, by the way, does contain all the ingredients listed) and then we "evolved" into a more "intelligent" creation (which, by the way, God did state we would do when we built the tower of Babel); so what's the argument? All God's creatures evolve and adapt according to their surroundings. i.e. I would have "evolved" as a different person if I was born in, say, Russia vs. the United States. As far as natural selection goes and that only the "fittest" survive, it is all crap; (because one catastrophic event can change everything-remember the dinosaurs?). Otherwise, without some form of morality (which evidence shows it originated from "God") the only thing that would be left on this planet earth would be roaches and rats (think about it people...). According to the article, the Evolution Theory is still evolving (what an oxy-moron) but God's Word has been around for thousands of years with no revisions to its root message (only to those who seek to gain their own "copyright") I'll stick with both; eventually Gods creation will evolve to be like Him due to "His" natural selection...

How evolution evolved

Alex G, Brooklyn, NY — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:06:13 GMT

@Hiram:
Just because we can recreate natural phenomena in an "intelligent" manner, does not mean that said phenomena has always come about in that manner. Your "I saw act X occur by method Y, therefore act X always occur by method Y and no other method can create it" argument doesn't hold water. If I were to dam up a river, and cause a lake to form, would that prove that all lakes are created by dammed rivers?

As far as this accusation of spending "way too much" time trying to disprove God, for the last time, evolutionary science does not disprove God. Many religions, most notably the Catholic Church, accept evolution as completely compatible with their God, spirituality, etc. Just because it's not compatible with God/religion as you would define it does not make incompatible absolutely.

How evolution evolved

Interested Canuck, Toronto — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:07:02 GMT

marty: Stephen Jay Gould once postulated that perhaps the chicken was the best way the egg could find to reproduce itself! Having said that, I find it amazing that any sentient being could seriously question Darwin's postulates. The current issue of Scientific American contains a number of excellent articles

How evolution evolved

TILT — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:07:08 GMT

Funny how a species has never been discovered in "transition", half changed. Why hasnt the Coelecanth fish evolved? Its been millions of years supposedly? The origin of the species will remain as it has been, a sham. I remember a story hwere Darwin asked for his BIBLE upon his deathbed. GL to all you Darwinists, I suppose you can greet Madelyne Ohare if the Devil allows contact with her where your going.

How evolution evolved

Vance, Colorado Springs — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:13:13 GMT

Alan, was "Larry from Modesto" a clever plant by a MSNBC editor (or you!)to get this discussion going with a swift kick in the mental pants? "Larry" are you real? "Larry" are you chuckling right now at your keyboard? Are you type of guy who yells "FIGHT" at a bar and moves to the wall to enjoy watching the outcome...real funny "Larry"...real funny. Actually it is!

[ALAN ADDS: Nope, the comment was authentic, as far as I know. But thanks for bringing a smile to my face ;-)]

How evolution evolved

Bill Willey, Hillsboro,ohio — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:16:35 GMT

I'm so glad that I have lived my life as though there is a Real God,If I'm right I've lost nothing . But if I'm wrong then Ive lost everything,plus my only chance to make it. For after death you have no chance for salvation, or any other recourse to get it right.I'd rather go to sleep knowing for sure that I was going to Heaven. If you don't believe me just try the Lord , and if you don't like it the devil will always take you back.

How evolution evolved

Anonymous — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:20:12 GMT

If it takes a complex being like God to create Man, who created God? Intelligent design indicates that Man is too complex to come from randomness. So, in turn, something that orchestrates the creation of man must be at least equally complex. Therefore, God must be too complex to have originated from randomness and must have been intelligently created as well.
Who created God?

How evolution evolved

Drustan Light, McKinney TX — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:24:42 GMT

Theory or scientific fact - it doesn't really matter. The unfathomable complexity of an organism indicates the undeveloped intelligence of the species attempting to understand it, not the presence of an all-powerful and supremely omnipotent god. There is a distinction between cognitive thought and postcard wisdom. Darwin's ideas are the result of cognitive thought, monotheism is postcard wisdom. We as a species are on the beach of the great and infinite sea. To stand on that beach and take a grain of sand and say I now know all that I need to know about the universe from this one grain of sand is to condemn our species to stagnation and extinction. To look to the sea and imagine other beaches made from sand wholly different from our own is to continue the species. In the future, its evolution that will end this debate itself ... religion suggests that you should stay on that beach and die ... the futurists will inherit the universe, the past and present are beaches full of dead postcard sophists.

How evolution evolved

Bob, San Diego, CA — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:25:25 GMT

I wish the word "theory" would have been defined. Its meaning is very different to scientists than it is to the general population.

For Bob, Tulsa, OK: "without some form of morality (which evidence shows it originated from "God")"

What specific evidence would that be?

How evolution evolved

Al, Atlanta, Georgia — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:31:07 GMT

Some people BELIEVE that evolution is a fact that cannot be questioned, rather than a scientific theory. Others are against it simply because of their religious BELIEFS.

Here is what I think. Both positions have nothing to do with science, but they are rather based on personal beliefs. Evolution is not a "fact" unless you want it to be your religion. Nor is it a "lie" unless you want to subject science to the will of the religion industry.

I think that evolution is a valid scientific theory that is open for discussion, just like the rest of science. Nothing more, nothing less.

How evolution evolved

Lonita Lee, Helena, Mt. — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:33:18 GMT

Atheists are religious. I see more fanatical frothing at the mouth coming from Richard Dawkins than I've seen at a tent revival. Dawkins has a world view he supports with the zeal of a whirling dervish. He's Darwin's superstar. He is as miserable as I once became when I attended church three times a week. One can be a human being or a human doing. This is the difference between most physicists and true metaphysicians. It is the difference between intolerance of faith and acceptance, fear based living and love based living, polarized thinking and being free enough to think outside any box. Natural selection, survival of the fittest and random mutation are not only thinking inside a box; the box is very small and very ugly. Trapping the spiritedness that makes us fully human beings in a box is wrong. Our spirits allow the creation around us to inspire us to feel love, joy, peace, and many other needful emotions. It is indeed wicked to ignore spiritedness. I think I need to go to a pet store now and watch a chameleon for a while and be amazed at the glory of it. I'll think about ever changing 'science' so much like the chameleon: exotic, yet germ ridden, slimy and changing its hues to hide from Intelligent Design. I'll marvel and learn and take to the unseen, marvelous realm yet another metaphor.

How evolution evolved

Jock, Missoula, MT — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:34:51 GMT

Bob, I think you are mixing together some very different issues. "Biological evolution" refers to the genetic-based changes of species over time. The question of the origin of life is a completely different issue. We still don't how life began, but we know quite a lot about how it evolved from there.

While the word "evolution" in English can many any "change," the scientific study of "Biological evolution" is strictly defined as above. An individual's changes throughout life are considered "development," not evolution.

The question of whether there can be morality without God is a fascinating one that we will likely be discussing from here to eternity, but it has nothing to do with science or evolution.

How evolution evolved

Josh, San Diego CA — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:36:27 GMT

Bradley H. Springfield Mo...put your bible down, pick up a book on evolution and read about the overwhelming evidence for evolution. This is no longer disputable. Evolution is a fact. If you look at the evidence from a neutral perspective you will come to no other conclusion. Sorry it doesn't agree with your bronze age text; deal with it.

How evolution evolved

Don Small — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:36:43 GMT

The implication of evolution is that species somehow "evolve" into improved specie...on and on. If that were true, then the fossil record would be all the proof we need regarding the efficacy of the theory. However, there does not exist, in the fossil record, any evidence of one species "evolving" into another. What the fossil record does show is that species came on the scene and exit eons later - for a number of not so clear reasons. For example, it has been suggested that birds "evolved" from dinosaurs. Prove it!

How evolution evolved

Aaron — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:38:40 GMT

There is only two options. Either there is a God or there isn't. Both of these options require faith in order to believe in them. This is something more people need to realize: it is no harder to believe in a supreme God than it is to believe in evolution and accidents, if you don't believe this think of that age old question "where did this all come from anyways?". Ahh, see, both require faith. In fact some would argue it takes a lot more faith for one than the other, but that is beside the point. If there really is a supreme God how is it so hard for people to understand that he has the power to create however a complex animal or earth system that he wants. If God wants to create it he will. If he wanted to create an earth that has rock layers that would have taken billions of years to form naturally and instead create it in an instant why not. He is God right, he can do whatever he wants, yet for some reason we limit him, we say, "No if there really was a God he could have only created gases or maybe a couple different kinds of minerals that could later melt and mold and erode together to form the earth as we know it today. No surely this God you speak of does not have this kind of absolute power you speak of, the only cool power he has is to create something out of nothing, and what kind of power is that?". I hope you begin to see my point, and I understand that most still don't believe in God and you are free to believe whatever you wish but you must see that it really is not that much harder to believe in God than it is to believe in accidents. However if you choose to believe in God do not limit his power, who are you to tell God what he did and did not do or what he is capable of. Give God some credit (give him all the credit), after all he is God.

How evolution evolved

Tim, Eden Prairie MN — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:38:54 GMT

"The concept that humans, as complex and perfect as they are, found their beginnings in some random, accidental primordial soup is too fantastic to be believed. "

Humans are not perfect and the way we are now was not a predetermined endpoint of evolution. Evolution is not a roadmap, it's simply the process by which life changes over time. Humans could have evolved in infinite different ways. Because we evolved the way we did was not "too fantastic", it's just the way we were shaped by the environment around us over millions of generations.

The crux of the debate is that the religiouus view sees humans as a "chosen" life form above animals and science see humans as just another type of animal.

How evolution evolved

Brandon — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:39:20 GMT

Biology needs to be elevated in academics to a more required level, because I'm constantly amazed at the volume of people who criticize Modern Biology from a point of view that shows a complete lack of understanding.

I guess it makes it ironic that our evolutionary past is what motivates us to be superstitious, to fear the dark and avoid giving reason and logic enough credit.

Science: it works!

How evolution evolved

Gordon, Chicagoland, IL — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:40:25 GMT

What remains conspicuous in its absence to anyone who really understands science is how to get from Miller-Urey's amino acids to 'productive' RNA enzymes. If you compare life to a house, Miller-Urey did the equivalent of showing that muddy straw left in the sun could become hard like a brick. It takes a lot more to put the first brick on top of another and orders of magnitude more complexity to build even a simple hut.
There's a long long road between an amino acid and something that wiggles on its own.

How evolution evolved

Raymond Belanger — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:40:52 GMT

The "Universe" is Infinate, it has no edges, therefore it has no middle, and consequently, no place to start ANYTHING, or for that matter to STOP anything. Evolution is a way to change things in a logical way, a little here a little there. NOT A WAY TO START ANYTHING. THE CHANGES WILL GO ON FOREVER.

How evolution evolved

Charles F. Toney, Plano, Texas — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:42:32 GMT

Further to the possibility that Someone out there may have created you.

What if that Someone has always existed & will also exist? What do you do when you live forever?

I think that's the question before the house.

How evolution evolved

Bob, Tulsa, OK — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:44:30 GMT

BOB, San Diego California

God's word, which was written thousands of years before the Evolutionary theory was even though of. His word has been tested, proven and discovered to be factually correct. It even existed before the theory of gravity and the scientific fact that the earth was flat (which was later proven to be false as well as thousands of other scientific "facts") Science, as well as evolution is still evolving (but is still very useful in the world today)

I see your point on the "theory" inquiry; the problem is if the word does not fit into our limited knowledge, we have a tendency to "change" the meaning (spin) and then we all stay confused...

How evolution evolved

Brad Melton, Powersite, Missouri — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:46:12 GMT

I have no problem with the idea of Intelligent Design. But I take issue with those who want to define that intelligence and smack a human face on an invisible world we cannot even fathom without symbol or metaphor; and then insist the rest of us fall in line and believe accordingly. It is, after all, belief and does not rely on any other yardstick of measurement except faith.

Dr. Molnar in post #2 asserts: "I submit that the very act of deciding to utilize the methods and techniques of a scientific approach to understanding our world is a values-based choice. Other ways of viewing the world exist." Indeed. Other ways of viewing the world exist but these views are based on faith and belief, not empirical evidence that can be validated time and time again, which is the Scientific Method.

Evolution is a workable theory. It continues to stand the test of time and is itself evolving as our understanding of its mechanisms evolve as well.

At the end of the day, we want to toss our understanding of life in to two convenient hoppers: Unholy Science and Unscientistic Religion, two dogma's that have barked at each other for centuries and which Western Civilization fondly keeps as pets. Perhaps some integration of the two or an entirely different method altogether would give us a fuller and more clear understanding of that which we seek to know.

How evolution evolved

Jock, Missoula, MT — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:47:07 GMT

TILT wrote: "Funny how a species has never been discovered in "transition", half changed. Why hasnt the Coelecanth fish evolved?"

The Coelacanth has evolved, just not very rapidly. Everything evolves. It has to. It would be virtually impossible for a species to go through many generations without some change in gene frequencies, which is the definition of evolution.

And there are many thousands of "transitional" fossils. In fact, it might be more accurate to say that ALL fossils are transitional.

How evolution evolved

Joel, Big Rapids, Michigan — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:50:58 GMT

As an electrical engineer (M.S. - Microelectrics, Univeristy of Illinois - Urbana), there is no doubt in my mind that there is an all-powerful God who created all things. The engineering design that is clearly integrated into all of nature can NOT be explained by natural processes. It doesn't matter how much time you have, it is simply inconceivable that even the simplest of cells evolved. The more we delve into the quantum world, the more clear it is that we are foolish to attribute our cosmos to anything other than a supernatural, all-powerful, all-intelligent being. God Bless you all.

How evolution evolved

Brian Langum, Plymouth, WI. — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:52:05 GMT

As soon as we humans can take whatever building blocks you want to use, and "creat" some kind of simple "living" organism from scratch, in the lab, then I'll give some consideration to the theory that all life evolved from one organism, at some point of time hundrerds of millions of years ago. I'm sure someone somewhere is mixing this and that together along with various times and temperatures in an effort to duplicate the primordial soup that allegedly
caused the creation of a living organism. Well all I can say is, "Good Luck With That".

How evolution evolved

SN, MI — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:52:29 GMT

To Emily / Hiram -
"This is called altruism- doing something for someone else even though it may gain you nothing or may cost you something (even your life) in the process. "

There is an intrinsic/implicit thought process as there as an extrinsic/explicit thought process. Though you may not openly weigh pros/cons, there is an instinctive idea (mostly instilled by morals taught through our lives, ironically via mythology) that 'altruism' gives you a sense of satisfaction. That is why you help people even though there is no apparent material gain.
It is stupidity in a sense that I wonder how someone can enjoy that satisfaction if they get killed in the act of helping someone else - but they still do it. May be the power of suggestion around after-life or heaven helps them do that.
All in all - we never do anything that does not give us something back, be it money or be it simple satisfaction.

How evolution evolved

Evolution Lives, Rochester, NY — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:53:18 GMT

Charles F. Toney, Plano, Texas
If Someone out there created you, and hasn't given you the ability to know that He created you, how would you know He created you?

but

If someone out there created you and did not want you to know it created you how do you know it exist?

How evolution evolved

James — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:56:11 GMT

Evolutionist will never have a leg they can stand on untill they answer the age old question--- which came first the chicken or the egg?

How evolution evolved

TC, Philadelphia, PA — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:58:09 GMT

For those of you who are "die hard" evolutionists, please answer this for me: The theory of evolution is based on the premise that all man-kind, and indeed, all life forms on this planet have a common ancestry. If that is the case, then arguably there would be a fossil record of "transitional forms" - that is, life forms demonstrating the transition from primitive life forms to the complex life forms of today (also known as the "missing link"). Moreover, as it has been alleged by the scientific community that evolution had to occur slowly in minute stages over billions of years, there, arguably, would be millions of transitional forms representing each of the transitional phases of various species over time. For example, how could a sparrow and a whale have evolved from a common ancestor, and yet we have not one single fossil representing a link between the two species? Please explain why we have not yet discovered a single transitional form that demonstrates this foundational principal of evolutionary theory.

How evolution evolved

James, Salt Lake — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:03:36 GMT

I believe it to be humerous that this question keeps people up at night. Life is already complicated enough to try to prove the unprovable. No one can prove or disprove that there is a god. Evolution has plenty of evidence to support that it in fact happens, but is it how the earth started? We'll never know for sure so we should stop wasting time worrying about it and live a little. Teachings thousands of years old are used to support the notion of a god. Funny how the stories in the bible, if they were to occur present day, would be looked upon as trickery and skulduggery. People's belief systems evolve. The notion of a god probably evolved as a convenient and plausible way to explain the unexplainable. At the end of the day it really doesn't matter all that much.

How evolution evolved

DLewis — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:08:44 GMT

Ok, so now we're down to some recombinant system reacting upon something that somehow allowed the stonger "recombinants" to change into DNA. I'll buy that. But one continuing question remains. Where did that come from? Again, it is suggested that possibly lightning strikes reacted upon amino acids to produce life. Maybe, but where did the lightning come from? So unless you truly believe that at some point in what we know as time, there was absolutely nothing existing and this nothing mystically reacted to "create", jees, there's that word again, something from which everything as we know it evolved, you have to admit that there has always been something existing. So. where did that come from?

How evolution evolved

Alex Gr, CA — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:11:11 GMT

"Darvin's is just a theory" phrase makes me cringe. You think a "theory" is just an unfounded speculation, and anything solid in science is a "law". But in fact, in science there are no solid undisputable "laws", there are "hypotheses" - giid guesses, and "theories" - hypotheses confirmed with "observations" ("facts" as you would name them). For example, Newton's "Laws" are just imprecise approximations of Einstein's "theory". Which are good enough for everyday life, but not good on space scale.

How evolution evolved

Charles Bonesteel, Boston, Mass. — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:15:56 GMT

If one takes a "big picture" view of the underlying principal of Darwinian evolution it is just another way of describing the history of all physical change, including not just biological change, but "pre-biological" change. Consider a simplified general chemical reaction in which two liquids, each containing only one type of molecule (A in one liquid, B in the other) come in contact in the right "environment" of pressure, temperature, concentration, etc... and react to form a new molecule (C). At the interface where the reaction is taking place, electrons are migrating back and forth between A and B molecules and occasionally combining to temporarily form a C molecule. At the cusp of the reaction the environment fluctuates microscopically, occasionally favoring the stability of the C molecule and at other times favoring the stabilities of A and B. For C to "survive" this essentially random interaction, it must, at some time, be more "fit" than A and B alone, perhaps even so much more "fit" that it crowds out its "parent" molecules, perhaps, under the right conditions, permanently. Thus even non-biological substances can be said to follw the general law of "survial of the fittest." Nuclear and sub-atomic processes can be thought of in the same terms, and obeying the same general "evolutionary" law. Galactic evolution and black hole process can also be thought of in the same general terms. Thus "survival of the fittest" is fundamental to everying that has happened, and will happen in our universe. It is not in the least surprising, then, that the formation and evolution of "life" obeys the same law as everything else in the univers.

How evolution evolved

Dave, Kewanee, IL — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:16:54 GMT

When will people finally realize that how we got here is not important. What we do with the life that we are given is what is truly important.

How evolution evolved

Maryann,Rochester,NH — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:20:47 GMT

As soon as someone says "The Bible Says....." the discussion is over.

How evolution evolved

Clay Blackwelder Pensacola FL — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:22:44 GMT

Evolution is a theory and a stupid one at best. You choose to believe everything came into existence from "space dust" than the Divine Creator. There is no imperical evidence of the universe being "billions of years old". Carbon 14 dating is erroneous at best; cosmic measurements of light and triangulation is a crap shoot because we just don't know how light (and other matter) behaves outside our solar system, let alone the galaxy and outer-space to even formulate a believable hypothesis. Those who have given up God's word in their minds and hearts are wrong and I will pray for them.

How evolution evolved

Hugh Mungus, Harrisburg, Pa — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:23:59 GMT

[...] There are those who say the "perfect human body." This fragile design with its many flaws…like…you eat and breathe out of the same hole…brilliant..? Out of all the animals on the planet humans are the only ones with painful deliveries. Our spines collapse…our knees go bad and our rectums fall apart.
Stand in front of a mirror naked and look at the truly wonderful design that an omnipotent god builds…
We eat like the animals…we sleep like the animals, we reproduce like the animals and we die like the animals.
I believe humans are the dumbest animals on the planet….

How evolution evolved

Joseph — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:24:42 GMT

The whole idea of god would be easier to swallow if most of organized religion did not include the idea of salvation. Why would god just create us and put us on earth? What purpose does that serve except to alleviate god's boredom? If god exists as some religions teach it seems that we are here for nothing more than entertainment. An all-powerful god that can create anything decides that an earth full of people will be established and all the souls will be sent there with free will and they alone get to decide if they want to hang out in the afterlife with god or the devil. Pure nonsense. If you want to live your life so concerned that god is watching every move and sneezing funny may put you in the bowels of hell I feel very sorry for you. The afterlife, like god, was invented to make sense of the unexplainable and the fear that this unknown inspires has created a very prominent position of power for many humans throughout history.

How evolution evolved

Bullwhip Griffin — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:26:11 GMT

Some of the conversation here keeps pitting spiritual beliefs against scientific thought as though they HAVE to be opposed to each other. They are merely parts of the human experience.
Scientific ideas can be universally agreed upon because they can be verified objectively by anyone.
Spiritual beliefs (or lack thereof) are subjective thoughts confined basically to the individual and help him give meaning or order to life. A hard-nosed evolutionary scientist can be a devout Christian as well as a religious minister can accept evolutionary theory and all the myriad degrees inbetween. No one view has to be accepted as the internal representation of the world for everyone.

My best example of this was from the movie Contact. In it, Jodie Foster plays a scientist and says she only believes in what can be scientifically proven. Her boyfriend played by Matthew McConaughey is a famous spiritual leader who then asks her if she loved her father. She responds that she does. He then asks her, "Prove it." She has no response. Her love for her father was as sure as the law of gravity but there was simply no way you could ever prove it for sure to anyone but herself. It gave her life meaning and order but those feelings were hers alone.

For me this simply shows there are perfectly valid ways you can see the world that are completely true for you and as long as they don't violate anyone else's right to the same thing it is perfectly alright. Believe evolution is true or don't. Just don't violate anyone else's right to do the same.

How evolution evolved

Barbara — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:27:41 GMT

To Anonymous - Who Created God? That has always been my question. I want to believe so bad and yet that is one question that just cannot be answered. It really scares me. But then on the other hand there had to be "something" that started it all, be it God or something else. But the question still remains - how does something come from nothing? There had to be a start somehow, somewhere. But how does nothing create something? Mind boggling because you can go on ad infinitum and the question will always remain the same. How did it all start?

How evolution evolved

George Castanza — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:30:24 GMT

We assume that if there is a God he owes it to us to reveal himmself in the way we see fit, under our terms, and if not, then he cannot exist. So we turn to theories that require blind faith. Science has given us wonderful products but to say that evolution is no longer a theory? Science is fraught with fraud and deception just like wall street, the banking industry and any group you choose. What next a bursting of the science bubble? We can only hope.

How evolution evolved

Roger, Kingsport, Tenn — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:32:11 GMT

Knowledge is an evolutionary process. If Darwin had the knowledge of today, he may or may not have reached the same conclusion. If by the grace of God the earth continues, knowledge of today will also look very crude in the future. Only divity can create a universe from nothing. Faith in a Divine Creator is the only constant we can count on period.

How evolution evolved

Djudge, Seattle, WA — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:34:49 GMT

Astronomical odds against something happening in a universe this big really don't constitute a coherent argument for it's impossibility. There are astronomical odds against winning the lottery. Is God continuously working to improve species through mutation, and why didn't he make species right in the first place. There are no good honest answers to these questions and the pencil argument is stupid and simplistic. Modern science can be used to reconstruct data from the past unless God wants to fool us. The only direction that we have then is backwards to where the priests tell us how to interpret reality, and force us under torture to recant when we disagree with them. That's why we can't accept intelligent design. It quashes further inquiry.

How evolution evolved

John Bennet — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:35:40 GMT

I am a Christian who has healed many very ill and terminal people in Jesus name. If there is no God where does this power come from? I have also cast out spirits from many others, hundreds, with witnesses. If these are not the demons spoken of in the Bible then what are they? The God of the Bible is God.

How evolution evolved

Dan Charlotte NC — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:38:10 GMT

Look up Cambrian explosion in google and then explain how evolution fits in. Evolution is a genetic process said to take "eons" as the article brings up.
Within 50 million years, the world went from single celled and simple organisms to very similar to what we know today. Don't mistake natural selection as "evolution" either because they are two separate things.

By the way, Biologist working on lightning bolts striking soup sound like Frankenstein to me.

Just as a side note. Christ calls us to meet people where they are at, and instead of judging people for believing evolution, I encourage you to understand why they believe it. You may have a good conversation if you let your guard down. It is the holy spirit that reaches out to people including you, not the other way around.
For Non-Christians, evolution is not the centerpiece of Christianity although it sometimes seems that hot topics may sometimes become the focus. It is about grace given through the redemption of Jesus Christ. It is not through our works (things we do) that he has forgiven us, but through grace. He is always there to welcome you and if you seek to know him he will find you. You are made in his image and he loves you.

How evolution evolved

RW, Austin, TX — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:38:36 GMT

Anonymous,

Perhaps it was man who created God?

But serisouly, creation is a belief. The same can be said of evolution. It's more of a matter of what lets you sleep at night. I sleep better believing that tomorrow has not been planned and that anything can happen. There is nothing wrong with beliefs, that's what makes us human.

I'm not saying I have the answer, because I also believe that to completely reject evolution, or creation, or any belief is extremely narrow minded.

In closing, survival of the fittest in nature is undeniable. If you can't see that, you need to get outside more often.

How evolution evolved

George, St. Louis, MO — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:43:19 GMT

The notion that Darwinism lays the groundwork for man-made atrocities such as Nazism is utter nonsense. One does not need to look far or deep to find countless wars and genocides committed by humans in the name of religion. Just look at the mess in the Middle East right now. If anything, fundamentalism, and religion in general, form the basis of most human evils.

How evolution evolved

MUTATION IS NORMAL — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:44:38 GMT

That evolution occurs is a stone-cold fact: it makes dog and rose breeding possible, and makes flu vaccines necessary.

The only uncertainty is about the details. THEORY about the past can never be PROVED, just IMPROVED.

How evolution evolved

Poe's law — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:46:33 GMT

i don't understand biology, therefore God

How evolution evolved

Eric, Berkeley, California — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:47:37 GMT

If it is difficult for many to believe that complex beings can result from chance, that is because they don't (and the Theory of Evolution doesn't claim that they do). Mutations may be random, but natural selection is not; it is directed towards those traits that allow an organism to survive. That is the whole beauty of the Theory (again, in science this term is not synonymous with "hypothesis"), and the reason why there is no need to postulate intelligent design. The book "The Blind Watchmaker" by Richard Dawkins explains this in convincing detail.

How evolution evolved

Bdaman — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:49:30 GMT

I believe creationism and evolution go hand in hand. My question is this, how can almost every living thing plant and animal have the ability to reproduce. It's like the debate i had with a friend of mine who believes they found the gay gene. Then i wonder if the size of the human brain has remained the same reportedly for 200,000 years, how is it some of the greatest advancements began only 3000 years ago. Did the human brain remain stagnant for 197,000 years, is this evolution?

How evolution evolved

Peter, Seattle, WA — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:52:14 GMT

Educated people? I consider myself very well educated yet still I believe in GOD (a higher power). Faith puts me there. Even science is a faith. What I believe is that man has warped faith into religions that serve a very humanistic attribute, which is to control. This was done to religion just as it was done to the theory of evolution by Nazis and todays elitist. Yes that's you.

How evolution evolved

Dave M — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:53:04 GMT

I like the majority of this discussion. Nothing is personalized and there are no attacks.
2 things I would like to add to this discussion:
1. It has been my experience that the majority of the very public proponents of evolution are using it as their religion. My studies show ME that macro-evolution leaves a lot of unanswered questions. Yet these public proponents want me to believe in it without proof.
2. I find it interesting that the scientists quoted in this article are protecting science from the attack that Darwin had something to do with the actions of Hitler, et al. Yet, would these same people protect Judism or Christianity from attacks that these religions are connected to attrocities supposedly committed in the name of God?

How evolution evolved

David Hauck, Lake City, FL — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:54:40 GMT

Regardless of whether you believe evolution or not. It has NEVER been proven. There are still questions that cannot be answered by evolutionist. One of the basic principles of science is that matter cannot be created or destroyed. Following this logic, even IF evolution truly occurred, where did the initial elements/molecules, etc...come from??? This has never been answered.

How evolution evolved

Lawrence, Dawsonville, GA — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:55:11 GMT

Every effect must have a cause. (If you doubt this, then show me one effect in this universe that has no cause) We also know that this universe had a beginning, so if we could trace back to the very beginning, to the very first effect in the universe, it is necessary that it's cause be an un-caused cause - a supernatural origin. Even secular science says that the "big bang" is where the laws of physics break down, so even their theory starts with a supernatural origin. God is the only logical explaination for any discussion of beginnings, and if God created... Then evolution is therefore falsified. Period. Further, it doesn't make logical sense to say that God doesn't exist. It's impossible to posit a negative in the absolute - it requires infinite knowledge to do so, and no human has absolute knowledge.

How evolution evolved

Kevin J. Shutt, Highlands County Florida — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:57:30 GMT

I often read about or hear discussion about situations in which scientists re-create the conditions necessary for spontaneous combustion. What is always left out of the equation is that those scientists had to "create" that situation, ensuring the correct conditions acted upon the correct particles. They are, without knowing or admitting it, acting as the other important factor: the "Creator" who brought everything together.

How evolution evolved

Allred, Mass — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:00:14 GMT

i can't believe people still believe in a higher power that created people and everything around us. Face the facts: when you die the lights go off and your carcass get thrown in a hole or burnt. Live for this life not the next one. Treat others as you want to be treated and do it cause it's the right thing to do here and now. God is santa claus for adults......

How evolution evolved

Ellis B. Kingman, Az. — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:00:26 GMT

Most so called experts tend to focus narrowly on the concept of evolution, it is not 'intellegent design' but 'divine science' that provides the answers. Of course evolution is factual, and all physical life forms bear the proof. All begin as a seed (or egg) and evolve into something entirely different. All cells and genes within each seed are preprogramed to migrate to a particular area of whatever structure and multiply to form particular organs and supporting infrastructue. A human body is little different than that of a tree. Each evolve from a seed and continue to evolve until the structure looses the ability to regenerate parts or is damaged beyond repair. Both have the ability to bear off spring to preserve the species, yet not one succeeding is ever identical to any superseding. All physical life forms do evolve to adapt to changing environments, and all are dependant upon others for their own survival..........Thus far, the missing factor to the equation connecting evolution to a creator is 'Balance'. Evolution is a most useful tool for maintaining a healthy balance of necessary life forms, a necessary tool for maintaining a balance of supply and demand. And that is why it is sometimes necessary to allow a particular species to go extinct. It IS all about science, a DEVINE SCIENCE we should not tinker with.

How evolution evolved

Katy Mobley — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:00:27 GMT

Darwin's right! And no matter how the beginning happened, it's a magnificent thing that's been set in motion. I don't understand why there's such a religious retaliation, since God is behind EVERYTHING. And about Hitler & Stalin, Darwin's still right--did they survive? No!! Only the survival of the fitest. These dictators/murderers where hardly a good representation of mankind! May we all have open minds to experience the many glorious advances in understanding our world.

How evolution evolved

Mike, Maple Grove, MN — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:04:45 GMT

If we begin with the basic truth that the human species has changed over the past 10,000 years, then by definition, we have evolved. The question is then, if created by intelligent design why the need to change? The follow up question becomes, if it was necessary to change, then was the mechanism to evolve included in the original design? Darwin address only the mechanism to evolve, in his own writings he attribues the origina creation to a higher power.
Maybe there is some truth to the adage that God created us, evolution explains how he did it.
I have no conflict between my faith in a higher power, and in the power of evolution. They are compatible.

How evolution evolved

Rob , Spring ,Tx. — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:06:45 GMT

Remember , evolution is an on going process.
If there is any living thing on this planet in a
billion years from , it probably will not look , think , or act like it does now , including humans.
Nature does not care how we classify living things.
A cat is a cat now , this does not mean it was always
a cat or that it will always be a cat.

How evolution evolved

U Mark, St.Louis, MO — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:09:32 GMT

The problem isn't all semantics though much of it is. Plants, animals, all life is evolving/changing to adapt/survive. Certain levels of life more quickly as their lifespans/generations may be hours/days rather than years/decades. The main problem with Evolution/The Theory is there really is two parts, one is likely fact(and hard to argue)Life evolves, changes, adapts to survive(An intelligent Creator would have been stupid to leave that out). The other is seriously a "Theory" Life Evolved from matter/non-life, but taken as "fact" causes Christians or anyone who believes in "Intelligent Design" problems because since both parts of the Theory of Evolution are taken as fact Schools are not allowed & fight the teaching of an equally if not more compelling Theory, at least in my estimation, Intelligent Design.

How evolution evolved

marshallr0ss, Jefferson City, MO — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:10:15 GMT

How evolution evolved

David, Dallas, TX — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:12:01 GMT

A note to TILT: In fact, evolution tells us that EVERY species is in transition - some will evolve into something different sooner, or later, some will stay unchanged for eons, some will disappear altogether, leaving behind only fossils for future intelligent lifeforms (if there happen to be any around) to ponder and argue over.

How evolution evolved

Gary Schear — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:16:16 GMT

"Theory of Evolution" is pejorative.
Natural selection is observable fact and not only in the fossil record. Chihuahuas, poodles, and dwarf horses among many others exist only because we humans selected traits in individuals that we found useful or pleasing to the eye and then bred individuals with those shared traits. In very few generations you end up with very observable changes from the original pair. Lets call this un-natural selection. Now, without the intervention of humans, environment becomes the breeder. Individuals with traits that aid their survival tend to survive and breed. Those traits become more prominent. Nature takes much more time to do it's husbandry but the results are far more practical. Nature would never create a Chihuahua. Their survival rate in a natural environment would be very disappointing. Chihuahuas know this. Ever wonder why they shake so much?

How evolution evolved

XavierArtorivs, Plano, TX — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:17:51 GMT

For additional Youtube videos on evolution, astrophysics, biology, etc see the following channels: AndromedasWake, Thunderf00t, DonExodus2, AronRa, potholer54, cdk007, ExpelledExposed, ExtantDodo, Answersinbooks, dprjones, ThetaOmega, freedom0f5peech, djarm67, & PrometheusWithLight. I'm sure their credentials are in order.

How evolution evolved

mark, houston, tx — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:18:55 GMT

i don't like how some say creationists are stuck backwards and evolutionists are godless.

they are both wrong because creation is evolution. i believe evolution is god's creation.

How evolution evolved

1Friend — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:24:16 GMT

If survival of the fittest defines "fit" as those with procreative drive, then homosexuality would be a state of unfitness, no? As far as an unintelligent force (evolution) sees it, this trait frustrates the future of the species. Sure, civilization allows many unfit individuals to prosper and procreate, but how does the survival-of-the-fittest believing community define homosexuality as the unfit trait that it is? Like any physiological malformation in individuals - transgender syndrome (hormones and chromosomes don't match leading to gender reassignments), hermaphroditism and genital ambiguity, homosexuality needs to recognized as a malformation by the community that teaches we are here because of the survival of the fittest - those who reproduce naturally. This is necessary because it is an unpublicized truth; and science must, above all, confirm truth. Physiological unfitness is not a reason for any to be hated or ostracized, but this condition must defined for what it is if we are to be truly scientifically minded.

How evolution evolved

Ray Gallahan — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:28:46 GMT

To believe in primordial soup requires more faith to believe in than any other world view you can create.

At the end of the day, everything becomes a faith issue, hopefully you put it in the right place, and ultimately we will all find out when we die.

Q. How did we get our sense of morals?
A. It became naturally selected over millions of years for survival.

Q. How did we come to belief in God?
A. You had that passed on from ancestors who naturally developed it for survival.

Q. How did you come to believe in Primordial Soup?
A. You must have developed it over so many years in order to help you survive.

So if this is the case then believing in primordial soup doesn't neccessarily make it any more right than believing in Jesus Christ's claim that He is God and you will stand before Him when you die.

But believing in it does allow you to live your life in whatever way you see fit....

How evolution evolved

Paul Merkel — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:30:02 GMT

PROGRESS, IT'S ALL ABOUT PROGRESS AND THAT IS ABOUT
ADAPTATION.
PAUL PHOENIX,AZ

How evolution evolved

Hiram, Rosamond, Ca — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:31:11 GMT

Alex - A natural lake is a verifiable and observable experiment. We know how and why such events occur. We have never been able to create life in the lab. We make assumptions based on what we observe today, with no real idea on what the world was like in the beginning. If you continue to read my comments, I also pint out that for this to happen accidently by pure chance the odds are beyond comprehesion.
Second as of the others believing that evolution fits to quote "their God" That is where in the problem lies. You either beieve God's word our you do not. It not something you can pick and choose. We either accept the fact He speaks in plain language we can understand or we believ we are arroganbt enough to tell HIm what He means.

Thomas - You say that sciende needs to be observable and repeatable. I that you are correct. The problem lies wiht the fact we cannot observe nor repeat anything that happend at the creation of this planet. We are making many assumptions by observing today on what was the past. So how can this be verifiable as fact? That takes a lot more faith than most of us really have. I saythere was someone who was there at the beginning and He gave us the historical writings on how it all happened.

How evolution evolved

Jeff, Stockton CA — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:32:44 GMT

As a Christian I studied biology in college. I agree with micro evolution, macro has yet to be proven. The one question I was left with was where did man get his sense of right and wrong??? How does one evolve a conscience??? I think that people who aren't believers on this website should stop calling people of faith idiots and uneducated. The love God has for us is our proof. I also think Christians should respect the others viewpoints as well. Jesus died for Darwin and for us all.

How evolution evolved

Dex, DC — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:40:27 GMT

Where did the "original matter" of the primordial soup come from?

How evolution evolved

Jed Clampett, Bevery Hills, CA — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:45:42 GMT

"I'm so glad that I have lived my life as though there is a Real God,If I'm right I've lost nothing . But if I'm wrong then Ive lost everything"

Way to hedge your bets there Bill. I'm sure god will look kindly upon it. That is, assuming he hasn't damned you to hell because you didn't pick the "right" religion.

How evolution evolved

Charles F. Toney, Plano, Texas — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:46:06 GMT

Anonymous asked "Who created God?"

That's easy - no one. God has always existed. And He always will exist.

The same answer you get when you ask "What is the Origin of the Species?" There is no origin of the species.

If you tell me the origin of evolution's primordial soup I will ask you where that came from. And if you tell me the Earth I will ask you where the Earth came from. Then I will ask you where the Big Bang came from.

Evolution is not about the "Origin of the Species". but about how the species has changed.

If anyone knows what the "Origin of the Species" is, please tell us now.

How evolution evolved

Dewayne, Omaha, NE — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:47:20 GMT

If we understand what science is and what science is not and what religion is and what it is not we will clearly see that we are discussing the science of on religion vs the science of another religion. Creationism and Evolution are both religions. Each view the world around us and make presuppositions about the past, remember we were not there. My feeling is the Bible and God's account of how the world began make great sense and science does support my position.

On the other hand those apposed to God will view the world around us and come to a different outcome regarding our orgin. If for example scientists found a large boat on the top of Mt. Ararat it would depend on the religion of that scientist as to whether this was Noah's ark or some sort of russian plot.

How evolution evolved

JoelB — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:50:23 GMT

Revelation from God saying this is how it's done would be nice.... if we only had a true prophet. Until we disover that person, it's useful to note that all of this didn't happen accidently, nor could it have. "Intelligent design" doesn't work, because those authors know so little about the creation process. To MANY of us out here, there is NO conflict between "GODs" creations and the obvious advances in form from one type of world/plant/animal/man to the next level, culminating in mankind, so God can place spirit children here. For what purpose? To become similar to HIM, eventually; but not all can/will do that. It's OK; with the expanding universe and associated galaxies and everything it takes to create them, God needs obedient and discipined children to work in subservient positions of management of HIS creations. To what purpose? The glory of GOD is intelligence, or truth and light, and expanding HIS creations including mankind, does that, increasing HIS glory, FOREVER!!!!

Did GOD create man, yes. Does evolution exist? Yes, within limits not yet understood by man. Was it done in seven of our "DAYS"? ABSOLUTELY NOT!! Even the King James Bible has the outline, verified by science of the fundamental time periods associated with the creation of our planet. So, the Bible is wrong? Yes, in some areas, since it has been massaged and whittled at by men of many different languages and motivations since the compilation of it began, several decades after Christ, at the very least.
So, this leaves science and especially most of the Christian churches with questions to ask and few ways to answer, except to condemn, denigrate and vilify anyone who has an opposing viewpoint which answers questions which they cannot, and provides thoughtful discourse which they find reprehensible.

And the world spins onward......

How evolution evolved

BN — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:50:37 GMT

I thought by the title, this article might explore changes and advancements in evolutionary theory. But it doesn't. It does mention that scientists are still trying to invent a mechanism for evolution to explain the origin of life (this story is as old as the theory). For the theory to evolve, though, it must be challenged. The theory of gravity was challenged very successfully by Einstein. Too bad imagination and invention are only employed to try to come up with a way that evolution could possibly explain the origin of all species and life itself; rather than to challenge where it might fall short.

How evolution evolved

Kate W. Chicago, IL — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:57:41 GMT

Creationism and Darwinism are two different ways to explain something that have the same end result. Who's to say they're not intertwined? Regarding the "Big Bang Theory:" God spoke and BANG! the Earth was created!

How evolution evolved

J. Travalini — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:58:16 GMT

I don't see why relgious organizations can not see the divine work of something greater then our knowledge. Call it God if you want. Many other religions around the world have one God. You can still believe in everything happening for a reason and sort of working out in the long run. As scientist prove that everything is made of cells it proves everything and poeple are conected. If you believe in any one God and that that life reflects in everyone and everything. Then relgion can finally stop holding back science. They just don't get that religion also has to evole.

How evolution evolved

Dennis Rick, Casa Grande, AZ — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:00:05 GMT

We are from the Planet of the Apes. They are still laughing at us.

How evolution evolved

Jim GH Ohio — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:01:09 GMT

If you believe that God created all that there is then who created God?

How evolution evolved

Peter, Portland, Oregon — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:01:28 GMT

The beauty of DNA is that you no longer need fossils to prove evolution. Every cell in our bodies contains the proof in the form of shared code between species (for ex., the SLC24A5 gene shows humans and zebrafish share a common ancestor) and "junk" DNA that no longer functions as a result of evolving beyond the need for that function (if there is a god, it sure is a sloppy designer!). BTW, evolutionary theory has never been meant to answer the "origin of life" question. Evolution through natural selection is also not a random process; only the initial genetic mutation is random. And don't forget evolution through sexual selection!

How evolution evolved

JD, Seattle, WA — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:03:44 GMT

There was an interesting program about physics this morning on the History channel, and the most fascinating aspect of it was the importance of the Horn Antenna at Bell Telephone Laboratories in Holmdel, New Jersey, as well as the device itself, as this was the first time I learned it existed--plus, it looks totally cool, and I want one!

In the 20th century, it appears that quite a few folks including Albert Einstein, were convinced that the universe did not have a beginning, but the Bell Labs' Horn Antenna pretty much ended the argument and made it abundantly clear that there actually was an "In the beginning . . . ", which is fabulous . . .

So, what does this have to do with Charles Darwin's so-called Theory of Evolution?

Great question!

It certainly is an interesting theory, as was the so-called "Solid State Universe" theory, but so what . . .

More specifically, what does this have to do with so-called "dinosaur fossils", which is one of the cornerstones that pseudo-religious fanatics use as evidence to prove that their beloved Religion of Evolution transcends science, which more than anything else at the dawn of the early 21st century is beyond annoying on so many levels that there might more of them than infinity . . .

So, non sequiturs aside, I think this makes for a great thought exercise, which might be more helpful for the confused folks than taking the time to consult a dictionary and actually to read the definition of the word "theory" . . .

Specifically, how can one be comfortable with the universe being created in an instant--all billions and billions and billions of particles, atoms, molecules, planets, stars, and galaxies--but at the same time essentially be dumbfounded by the idea that the same event could create not just a planet but a planet with strange fossils, which after a few thousand years would produce a highly intelligent organism named Duncan who among other activities would invent and market a fascinating device called the "yo-yo" . . .

I probably should have stayed awake all the time when I was studying Probability and Statistics with Calculus, but I got through it, and the probability of the universe being created instantly appears to be no more goofy than the probabilities that a fellow named Duncan would invent and market a yo-yo or that all the agnostics on the planet would band together and start a pseudo-religion based on the writings of Charles Darwin . . .

The important thing is that at least a few people continue to focus on science, because as wonderful as all the current theories of physics, biology, chemistry, and so forth and so on might be, none of them explains everything, which is a huge problem . . .

I think there is an explanation and a solution, but how is anyone going to discover it when nobody is doing unbiased science?

And on a curiously related note, the fellow in New Zealand (Peter Lynds) is correct about the real action being centered on time, since few people at the dawn of the early 21st century have even the most basic understanding of what time actually is and how it fits into the grand scheme of everything, which for all practical purposes makes the Theory of Evolution the anathema of science at the dawn of the early 21st century . . .

Thanks!

How evolution evolved

SH, Muskegon, MI — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:06:29 GMT

I believe that it takes more faith to beleive we are here by chance alone. There are too many variables to have been overcome for spontaneous life. Out of nothing, nothing comes. If anything, we are un-evolving. I don't think we as a society could survive if we were in the stone age. Therefore, we are not the fittest. We put more research into what kind of car or blue-ray player we will buy than eternity. You're only here a short while but you are dead forever. Or are you? We are all guaranteed in the end to find out the answer, one way or another. We all die someday. The ultimate gamble is faith in evolution or faith in a creator and savior.

How evolution evolved

Robert, Oklahoma City,Ok — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:07:00 GMT

"The fool says in his heart there is no God" You are a fool to believe the complexity of the human body alone happened because of some planet colliding or some bubbling ooze in the ground. God explains the beginning and end of man- evolution can't even explain whether the chicken or the egg came first. To all evolutionists, if God doesn't exist why are you so offended that He can't even be taught in a public school- I mean if you don't even believe there is a God then why not let all of us that do seek Him in a public forum- must be fear that you will find out the truth. I'm not threatened by evolution because I know where my hope lies, but you are because you don't have hope in evolution. Finally, all of the problems going on around the World are explained by God- it's man's deparavity, however evolution can't explain it because it would refute thier own belief system- that is evolution means we should have eradicated all disease by now and humans should be getting better, not worse in thier behavior- I guess we must be a bad batch of evolution. I choose to believe and know that my God created me in His image, and that He gave His Son Jesus for the atonement for my sin, and yours- the choice is whether you choose to believe on Him- He is calling and has been patient.

How evolution evolved

scott, prescott, az — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:07:53 GMT

Why not look at it this way:

"Evolution is the method whereby God created life on earth."

And here's something else to consider: Most people who have a hard time trying to get their arms around the concept of evolution are simply incapable of grasping the time frame under consideration. The earth is 4 billion with a B years old. Evolution of life has been occuring for 100's of millions of years. Given that much time I see no reason why life forms could not have adapted to the advanced stages we see today ie. "man"

How evolution evolved

LWM, California — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:07:55 GMT

Well, if one means the theory of evolution as an explanation for how life began, it is indeed just a theory because there is NO proof whatsoever (unlike gravity or magnetism) that evolution created life or can create life, and NO actual working model of how RNA came into existence from mere random chemicals. The models used are rigged, where certain building blocks for amino acids are assumed to have just existed when actually we have no proof they existed by accident, and indeed, we do not see those building blocks in place on Mars or the moon.

How evolution evolved

Counter-Cultural — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:09:19 GMT

Walt - While some of these posts may confuse "creativity" and "intelligence," your post seems to miss some of the main concepts underlying intelligent design (ID). Give natural physical processes, very complex structures can be generated without intellegent intervention. What that fails to account for is the immense informational content found in the DNA of even the most simple cell. The basic protiens used in cells are assembled by complex sequences, guided by coded instructions. Random processes do not create new information. "Laws" can generate complex patterns, but complex patterns do not result in new information.

Becuase we can discern information in the most fundamental parts of life, we can apply known disciplines and methods of informtaion science.

Simiarly, we do not need to idly speculate whether life contains evidence of design. Can you imagine an arson investigator looking at a burned building, and saying "if only there was some way of determining whether this fire was intentional or accidental?" Simialry, the SETI research team has established criteria for determining if a signal from space is indicative of intellegent life. Bottomline, if it contains significant information content that did not originate from Earth (like an echo), then it will be assumed to have an intellegent source.

Why are "sceintists" so offended at the suggestion that we investigate the evidence for ID. Simply identifying that an arsonist or source of extraterrestrial intellegence exists is entirely independent of dertermining who those "persons" are.

Science should follow the evidence where it leads. IF the information content contianind in life is the result of an intellegent source (whether "seeded" from space as some suggest or by a creator God), then "science" is guarenteed to develop incorrect thoeries if that possibility is excluded from consideration a piori.

How evolution evolved

Bill, Dayton ,Ohio — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:09:54 GMT

We know miriad life forms exist from plants to animals. These forms adapt to their micro environment and thrive. They also cease to exist when that environment changes because they do not adapt (evolve)quickly enough.
It is not hard to believe that a master experimentor (God) continues to perfect his creations. Starting from primordial forms and adding other building blocks until a complex (complex beyond our comprehension)life form exists.
If "survival of the fittest" is behind Evolution, why do we not have a few dominant life or monolithic forms rather than the millions or billions we see? Many existing in the same micro environment.
Neither the evolution of the universe or the existence of God can be proved. They just "are" to those who believe.
And what came "before" either of these? We have to leave the arguement to they "are" to those who believe.
Too much energy is expended in trying to prove or disprove what we cannot ever know.
Let's drop the arguement and get on with learning about life as it is and not as it might have been.

How evolution evolved

Dave Krieg, Colorado Springs, CO — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:14:39 GMT

These hardcore anti-evolution "Christians" are so easy to identify in the multitude of responses to this article. They keep making the same stupid arguments that have been defeated over and over. For example, TILT writes, "Funny how a species has never been discovered in "transition"." Really? Are not seals and otters the ultimate example of mammals adapting to aquatic environments? Science is trustworthy. It's not always right, but it will be the first to admit when it's wrong! Science isn't trying to decieve and mislead anyone. I cannot say the same about the radical anti-progress people that go under the guise of Christians.

How evolution evolved

Jerry M. Weikle, Virginia — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:14:43 GMT

Evolutionary Theory attempts to explain the genetic changes that occurs within species of plants, animals, and microbes that bring about new species because of the random changes. Evolutionary Theory explains how the changes occurred across geological time frames of hundrends of thousands or millions of years.
As a science, Evolution is not concerned about philisophical or religious belief systems of a deity inregards to the society. The other fields of science, the social sciences of Anthropology, Sociology, and Psychology can address belief system of a diety.

How evolution evolved

Amanda Franklin, NH — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:17:05 GMT

Reading these comments is a sad reminder of the sorry state of America's education system. It is pathetic that so many people do not know simple scientific terms and definitions. We're talking middle school science class here! Regardless of your religious beliefs, you still need to learn these things. Putting your hands on your ears and screaming GOD DID IT as loud as you can doesn't make you right. A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment (United States National Academy of Sciences). Evolution through natural selection is NOT random chance (I am talking to you Ron in Honolulu) anymore than it would be chance that I survived a fire and you didn't because I had a protective suit and you had gym shorts on. I was better equipped so I survived. Thats not chance. If people just appeared fully formed as we are today, then I would have to agree there was an intelligent designer but THAT IS NOT HOW IT HAPPENED. Life has taken billions of years to get to the compexity it is today. That is the miracle of life. Dismissing all of our knowledge and study as absurd is a discredit to our species. We all need to make the most of the time we have and learn and explore as much as possible. How sad to waste one's life on fairy tales and immoral gods.

How evolution evolved

Todd, Washington DC — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:17:55 GMT

By reading many of the comments here, and the public arguments against Intelligent Design, most neo-Darwinists cling to the theory because they abhor the idea of a God, not because of the mountain of evidence. The theory of Macro-evolution, (not micro, or small changes within species) has really not produced compelling evidence that we would have hoped for. Fossils, in principle cannot prove ancestry. Random mutations produced the eye and human reproductive systems? Next time the doctor comes out and announces that your new baby boy has a genetic mutation – you should be excited that you may be advancing the human species. On origins of life, what supposedly happened by accident cannot be reproduced (“built”) even today. Sir Francis Crick, co-discoverer of the DNA Helix, proposed life flew to earth from another planet (Panspermia). Gills to lungs? Scales to feathers? Origin of the universe? In the final analysis, the cosmos, earth, and life scream design. Intellectually honest laypersons and PhDs would agree. But most tow the company line.

How evolution evolved

Richard, Centerville, Utah — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:20:31 GMT

Anonymous, you ask an age old question of who created God. My religion explains it in this way. “As man now is, God once was, as God now is, man may become.” You might call it our own theory of evolution, how intelligence evolves into spirit which evolves into a living breathing mortal soul of flesh and bones which evolves into an immortal soul. In our finite state it is nearly impossible to fathom the infinite and the eternities, that there was no beginning and there is no end.
I find it interesting that science requires proof in order to believe, yet religion requires faith, the act of believing before any proof is given. It is no wonder that the opinions differ so widely, since religion and science are like birds and fish. As the saying goes “A bird may love a fish, but where will they build their nest?”
Drustan, you talk eloquently about a sandy beach and examining a single grain of sand. Yet, your theorists have only one grain of sand to examine. And they take that sand and imagine that it came from a large boulder from a far off place and they describe that boulder in the greatest detail so that it will be believable. But they cannot know for sure and so they are forced by the rules of science to use such words as theory and hypothesis.
As a person of faith, I believe in a God of creation, and with that faith I see evidences of God where ever I look. I see miracles in nature that science is still trying to explain. Even the Theory of Evolution is evidence of a God that created man with an imagination. I take nothing away from your brilliant scientists, but I choose to place my faith in Prophets, Seers and Revelators. Men who, by the power of God, can see the origin of that grain of sand, and know of the past, present and future of mankind. Some day I want to find an atheist and ask him how he felt when he woke up dead and realized that death is not the end.

How evolution evolved

Riley — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:27:20 GMT

Ben Stein said in his infamous movie 'Expelled' "...rather than regard human kind as carrying a spark of the divine, they (Evolutionists) believe we're nothing more than mud made by lightning." Now there are many things fundamentally wrong with the Creationist's arguments, especially this one. Creationist's always forget to mention the BILLIONS of years of history inbetween.

No credible scientist actually suggests that mud turned into people, that's not how it works. But wait, isn't that what the bible believes? That we came from mud, minus the lightning? Well, in any case, it is completely dishonest because no one is aruging that.

Another creationist argument is that any professor or scientist who tries to debunk or question Evolution is fired, black listed, etc. One of there main examples of this is Dr. Richard Sternburg, a proponet of Intelligent design. Dr. Sternburg cheated and went through the back door by publishing a paper that had not be reviewed by any other editor, which is what the journal requires. Sternburg hijacked the review process and snuck the paper in. In cheating, he undermined the integrity of the journal. The paper in question had NOTHING to do with Intelligent Design.

Of course a researcher or scientist will look crazy if they object to the evolutionary theory! In the scientific community, that's the equivalent of standing up in the middle of a crowded room and yelling that the holocaust never happened.

How evolution evolved

Ron Wilson, Cleveland, OH — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:29:38 GMT

Most people seem to think that evolution is the answer to how we were created. Can someone please explain to me (and I'm very serious here) why only one form of monkey evolved to the human race? It would seem to me that if monkeys evolved to humans over billions of years then all monkeys would have evolved and there would be no more of them on the planet. It just doesn't make logical sense. I'm not stupid by the way...engineer with a masters degree. I just don't get how this can work and would appreciate an intellectual response from someone who studies this stuff. If everything is evolving then it would seem to me that everything is evolving...no exceptions. What is the logical reason for the exceptions?

How evolution evolved

Frank Gloveer, Rochester, NY — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:30:39 GMT

Alexander:

"People try to blame Darwinism for Hitler and Stalin's tactics..."

And as if there were no dictators and despots *prior* to Darwin...

Ron:
"Still and will always be a theory. Everything we know has an intelligent designer."

Snowflakes?

Now, if you want to assert that a divine entity created the laws of physics and chemistry that makes such things as self-assembling and self-organizing structures possible...I won't really contest that. But If such exists, He/She/It/They seem to have set up a Universe that runs nicely by itself and doesn't require constant direct manipulation, including the rise of that which we call life.

And anyone who knows even a *sliver* about plant and animal breeding to get different specific traits, has to know that what can be called 'artificial selection' works very well, thank you. How can it be that much of a jump to acknowledging that a dynamic, changing Earth, over very long periods (and 'evolution' is basically defined as 'a slow change,' the opposite of 'revolution.') imposes conditions wherein 'natural selection' causes species to change radically?

If that's not how things work, then God went far out of his way to make it *appear* as if it did. (and I'd rather not believe in an entity that's that capricious) I prefer to use Occam's Razor and take the Universe/Nature at face value...

Tilt:
"Funny how a species has never been discovered in "transition", half changed."

How do you know you haven't? There's really no 'final' state. All life is in some sort of 'transition.' Come back in 10 million years or so, and you'll likely find unfamiliar life forms, that today's life was a 'transitional' form of. And some familiar ones that natural conditions where they were, did *not* force selective change upon.

And everyone (other than those who clearly know), *this* is how the word 'theory' is used in science:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory#Science

We still speak of the 'Theory of Relativity,' for example, which is on well-supported experimental and observational grounds, but no one pretends to have the very last word on it (It doesn't mix well with Quantum Physics, for example, and there's a Nobel waiting for someone with a theory that can encompass both, *including* testable predictions.) and *any* theory is always subject to revision (though any new theory still must explain that which we already can prove, *plus* predict and/or explain that which the previous theory does not.)

Other definitions:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theory

"I remember a story hwere Darwin asked for his BIBLE upon his deathbed."

There's no support for that notion:

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/d/darwin.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_cul4.htm

Nor would it change the validity of his observations, if he did.

How evolution evolved

George Witzel, Waco, Texas — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:30:52 GMT

I enjoy stuff about outer space and if, as stated in the Bible, God created "the Heavens and Earth", one day we might contact integellent life on another planet. When we do make contact, would those people know Jesus Christ? Why aren't there references to them in the Bible?
When you look at the tremendous distances to other planets, it is very foolish on our part to think we are the only planet that has life on it. There are billions of other places that may have life. Gallelio got into trouble because he said some stuff that didn't set well with the "Church". Back when he was around, who would have dreamed one day we would have robots wandering around on Mars, another planet and sent from earth? He would have gotten in trouble for talking about that too.
There was a time when, if you did not adhere to a certain belief system, you could be persecuted or put to death. Part of our society still clings to that system.
Most folks cannot fathom billions of years where all kinds of things can happen nor can they grasp an understanding of the extreme distances of outer space that goes on forever and ever.
I understand the comfort some people get in the belief of a superior being that is in charge of everything - the comfort one gets in that system when sick and dying. Also, how can a piece of meat, that our brains and hearts are made of do it's job? How is this possibile? Miricle or Evolution?
It seems stupid to argue these points. People are going to belive whatever they want to believe. Unfortunately, societies fight about these beliefs and people are killed. They are killing each other right now, today over some idiotic beliefs.
How long will these arguments continue?
In religion, if I don't pick the right god, your soul is supposed to burn in Hell forever. Does God really want that?
There are no easy answers.

How evolution evolved

Joe Baloney, Denver, CO — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:35:00 GMT

Many people now believe in evolution, but they also believe god is involved in the process all along the way, tweaking and adjusting the outcomes of life at every stage. These people also believe god tampers with and adjusts outcomes in their daily life as well. So I don't think the current question to debate is whether there is a god who designed the original universe, but whether god needs to tweak his creation constantly, or whether it's been on autopilot since creation. I like the autopilot theory, but I think that's tantamount to atheism. In other words, there's not much difference in a god who was involved 13 billion years ago but sat idle since, and no god. Another way to say it is, what if god created something vaster than the universe we are aware of, and our universe is but a spin off of a larger picture .. the more God gets removed from your daily life, the less "real" he becomes.

How evolution evolved

Paul, Clearwater, FL — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:35:19 GMT

The opposite of science is to read something in a book written by men 2,000 years ago, and then to automatically reject any scientific evidence that contradicts whatever the book says. Any good scientist would have to at least consider the possibility that the book might be wrong. Scientific theories are often changed or discarded if contradicted by new evidence, and the theories that survive, like gravity and evolution, are strengthened by this process. People who are threatened by the idea of questioning accepted beliefs may be able to hold back scientific progress at some times and in some places, but fortunately not everywhere, nor for very long.

How evolution evolved

Frederick Rosenberg South Orange, NJ — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:35:45 GMT

This world is fundamentally flawed, its lifeforms destroy each other and their environment, men have nipples for no reason, there are hundreds of brain chemicals when one should do, man does not have an eye to look backward, our cells turn cancerous and we can predict disease through probabilities and monte carlo simulations not by ones deeds or piousness. And today, genocide still continues in God's name. "If God is our Creator, then someone needs to talk seriously to Him about quality control!"

How evolution evolved

John — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:40:27 GMT

Hitler believed in gravity! You're not like Hitler, are you? Even if Hitler used Darwin's ideals to support the holocaust, why would it make evolution any less true? Hitler clearly did not know how evolution works. If you take a look at his writings, it is VERY evident.

And what about the german phrase wore on all Nazi belt buckles, "Gott Mit Uns" which means 'God be with us.' That sounds really atheist to me.

How evolution evolved

Bill Washington, Modesto, Ca — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:40:48 GMT

This generation is in serious need of science education fundamentals. This reality is especially true for science writers, teachers, college instructors and others who have influenced the national discussion on the theory of evolution.

By definition, science is an evaluation, or study of natural phenomena, systems, or sub-systems; a study which incorporates the important element of "observation". Without this essential component - "observation" - there can be no science.

The reproduction process has been observed for thousands of years. Hence, when dogs reproduce they bring forth little dogs; when horses reproduce they bring forth little horses; when humans reproduce they bring forth little people. This has been observed and scientifically verified time and time again for thousands of years.

Furthemore, when apes reproduce they bring forth little apes - not little humans. Now this, people, is science!

There are tons of scientific evidence to validate the axiom that each species "reproduces after its own kind", just as our Creator said they would. But there is not even a sliver of evidence that supports the ridiculous claim that all life evolved from lower life forms: no not one! Furthermore, the "primordial soup" non-sense is the highest order of mindlessness. There is nothing scientific about the theory of evolution, or its silly "primordial soup" side-kick.

If a person wants to believe "silliness" that is his/her choice. But don't call it science! Real science requires the important element of "observation", otherwise it is not science!

P.S. I have been an applied science professional for over 40 years. Hence, I have extensive experience with modern science methods.

How evolution evolved

Mike Groshong, McMinnville, Or — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:45:55 GMT

The Theory of Evolution is one of those historical processes we hear about in the classroom. As such the understanding of the theory's development can be accurately detailed.

How the theory actually works is an issue of science and many holes yet remain to be adequately filled, It is the holes that the fundamentalist groups seize upon to base their "scientific" objections ignoring the issue that science is a slow progression for the collection of knowledge.

Instead the fundamentalist groups offer their religious theories of creation as an alternative and feel they should receive equal time in our schools.

From my perspective all theories are not created equal
and do not have inalienable rights. Scientific theory is based upon documented evidence, conjecture understood at the time, and all subject to change based upon additional information.

Religious theory is based upon perceived absolutes and defended at all costs. Such as, if Genesis says it, it's true.

Actually the issue is moot; who really cares in the larger scheme of thing - I certainly do not as I have other issues to occupy my time except to comment on observable stupidity from time to time.

How evolution evolved

Ted — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:48:00 GMT

Creationists believe that everything was created in present form. Why then do humans have the genes to make a tail? Whales have the genes to make legs? Chicken have the genes to make TEETH!

How evolution evolved

Jim, Reno, Nevada — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:49:12 GMT

The problem with evolution Vs religion: It is hard to take control a persons mind or weakness and make money off of evolution.

How evolution evolved

Scott, Iowa — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:54:53 GMT

People,

I believe in the modern understanding of evolution. People do not necessarily believe in "survival of the fittest". That is an outdated term.

Everything is still evolving. To the person who wished some fish would evolve into something else. It doesn't really need to, it already seems to work OK, right? There is no goal, no endpoint to evolution.

Evolution is random mutation and the reshuffling of genes through sex. It doesn't need to be anything else.

People, please read up on population dynamics and speciation.

How evolution evolved

CF STUDIOS — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 23:04:36 GMT

ON A TANGENT: overcome your superstitious fear of oblivion, and accept that the Universe is devoid of meaning. We are born to die, and that's the end of it. We create the world we live in, and we decide what is Good and Evil.
The only real moral code is The Golden Rule...and you don't need a God to tell you that. It's just Life perpetuating Life, which is its sole function.
When people ask me, "So if there's no God and no moral absolute, why not just run around killing and stealing if there's no price to pay", I ask them:
"Is that what YOU would do if you thought God wasn't watching you?"

How evolution evolved

Robert — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 23:06:05 GMT

For all of you out there who refer to the "Big Bang Theory" who do you think lit the match?

How evolution evolved

Tom Carney, Roxbury, NJ — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 23:06:07 GMT

If there exists an All Powerful God, why do we limit Him from creating old rocks and even time itself?

How evolution evolved

BEGGING THE QUESTION — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 23:21:04 GMT

The notion that Man could only have been created by an Intelligent designer stems from a belief that only Man is intelligent. This, my friends, is a logical fallacy known as BEGGING THE QUESTION. Look up "circular logic".

How evolution evolved

Dave, OK — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 23:21:30 GMT

There is a difference between facts, hypotheses, and theories. Namely, facts refute or fail to refute hypotheses. When hypotheses are or are not rejected, this gives an indication of how theories need to be modified to match real-world data. We have sufficient data (facts) to refute the hypothesis that the earth is less than 6,000 years old, so our theory cannot logically tell us that god created the earth 6,000 years ago. We have, for that matter, evidence indicating that the earth is not younger than 4 billion years old. We therefore must conclude that the earth is likely to be at least 4 billion years old. We also have a preponderance of evidence to reject the hypothesis that humans were created in their present form 6,000 years ago (older fossils of modern humans). Science also cannot logically reject the hypothesis that intermediate forms of hominids existed as far in the distant past as 3 million years ago. We have facts that tell us which hypotheses are not true, then we come up with more hypotheses to test, thus gradually whittling down the plausible explanations of the facts so that we can come up with a cohesive theory. Darwin's theory on the origin of species is quite cohesive and logical.

Creationists have no evidence (facts) to refute any of the hypotheses proposed by the theory of evolution. They simply have their hypothesis that things are too complicated to explain without divine intervention. That hypothesis has been tested and proved false by a key explanation call evolution, which is theoretically sound. Scientists, on the other hand, continue to test an ever-multiplying set of hypotheses to refine our understanding of how evolution works. Creationists, if you are going to pose intelligent design as a scientific theory, then you have to start asking scientific questions, such as, "Was the intelligent designer intelligently designed?" and "How, exactly, did the intelligent designer design all this stuff and put it together so it fits?" The first is a pointless question because it leads to an infinite chain of intelligent designers, unless one of thes intelligent designers came into being by chance. The second question has a logical answer in the form of co-evolutionary theory.

We are adults. We should be able to look at facts rationally, and determine that the young earth hypothesis is a false one. We should also be able to see that the hypothesis that life was created by an intelligent designer can neither be proved nor disproved by science. There is and always will be room for belief in God because science addresses question of nature - not the supernatural. As we learn more from scientific analyses of concrete facts, maybe we can update our personal theories of the divine to match reality. I beleive in God and spirituality, but I can still think. Maybe we should all try it.

How evolution evolved

robert, oklahoma city — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 23:26:07 GMT

To amanda, you said that us Christians need to learn about evolution- Why? Christianity promises life after this one, by your own evolutionist reason there is no life after evolution, so why would I hope in it. Also, you said we can't keep screaming God did it with our ears covered to evolution, but the truth is we don't get to use God's name in school anymore remember. evolution sure isn't producing the best students these days are they, but when God was allowed in school we did. To the person who talked about intelligent life on another planet, God says that we were made in His image, and to your question of if there was would they know Jesus- if God has humans and I do mean humans on another planet, they would have the same choice you do. Finally, God talks about people who worship the created (i.e., stars, moons, and other things) more than the creator- that's what evolution does.

How evolution evolved

Tinker Ouse, New River, AZ — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 23:27:05 GMT

Unfortunately, most of the people who attempt to discredit science do so in terms that they believe to be "scientific" but that no scientist would use. A theory in science is a large body of information that explains our world to the best of our ability and summarizes this knowledge up to the present. It is NOT any sort of "guess." Science leaves room for additional information, and any valid hypothesis must be "falsifiable", in other words it must provide for alternative outcomes. Data does not "prove" or "disprove" the hypothesis - it only supports it (or does not). Therefore, science does not give us "absolute truth" (but religion claims to do just that). Science is an ongoing process, moving ahead with new information, technology, and even philosophy. There are many areas of human endeavor that can not be quantified scientifically, therefore are not in the realm of science (perhaps they lie in philosophy, ethics, and faith). So, please don't malign science with your own lack of understanding of what it is and is not.

How evolution evolved

Joe Baloney, Denver, CO — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 23:31:27 GMT

From nothing came something. From a virtual vaccuum, the thinnest of wisps of hydrogen condensed due to gravity and coalesced into accretion discs, which formed stars, planets and solar systems. So rocks formed out of pretty much nothing. Seems god should get credit for that trick, since the whole of the universe and everything we see and know about, came from virtual nothingness. Once you've got rocks and planets and elements and matter, assembling life from there would be a piece of cake compared to the previous event. Yet people doubt how could life have formed spontaneously? Evolution is thousands of times easier to imagine than the creation of the original universe 13 billion years ago. So how could evolution have occurred spontaneously? Here's a thought .. maybe god is smarter than you? And if so, maybe he knows a few things we cannot fathom. Maybe he created the universe to form out of pretty much nothing. And maybe matter, planets and life sprang up out of the mix because he knew what he was doing.
(Can I get a great big duh! here)

I think it would be way harder to make life appear from nothing, than to simply help evolution along. I give god full credit for everything, not just creating the earth, for example. You insult my god if you suggest life could not have formed spontaneously. It's the creationists who are the athiests in my opinion. They say it "couldn't happen without intervention at the point of creation of life". I say my god created the whole cosmos, and the earth and you and me are an outcome of the most spectacular plan ever witnessed by man. Oh and furthermore, my god can kick your god's tail any day of the week .. and twice on sundays.

How evolution evolved

Matthew Fields, Austin, Texas — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 23:34:03 GMT

Astronomers think at least one element, Potassium, came to Earth via a huge meteor that passed through a potassium cloud seen surrounding some exo-planets(those seen by telescopes outside our galaxy) and deposited K+ here on Earth, later allowing Potassium on Earth to be embedded in living creatures.

How evolution evolved

Charles, Baton Rouge, LA — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 23:34:19 GMT

After reading all the comments thus far, I am glad to see that at least some people understand what science is. You know who you are and you have my compliments.

I would also venture to say that everyone commenting would be considered intellegent in each of their own social and professional circles. However, it is evident our science education system has failed a good number of us, or WE have failed at our science education.

The information is out there. There are numerous books and scientific publications; all you have to do is take the effort to read. Don't take my word for it, look for yourselves, look at the authors. Check out their credentials and satisfy yourself as to their motives for presenting the information. Anyone that has done any serious investigation into the theory of evolution and the past and current research that has substantiated its revalence would not be interjecting a "super-natural" component.

Be thankful there are those who understand the process of evolution next time you get your flu-shot vaccination.

How evolution evolved

robert, oklahoma city — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 23:37:04 GMT

Amanda, [...] you actually said in your post- we evolved through billions of years to get here, and should celebrate the "miracle of life". you equate God to a fairy tale, yet use the words "miracle of life" here is the definition of miracle by the way-- a divinely natural phenomenon experienced humanly as the fulfillment of spiritual law

How evolution evolved

Sam Walker, Talladega Alabama — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 23:41:01 GMT

Hey Hey, lets jump on the evolution bandwagon. If evolution is a fact then mutation has to take place in order for any organism to evolve, therefore cancer is an evolutionary process and should not be treated, so that the subjects may evolve. Isn't it strange that noone ever survives without outside stimulus. Also if organisms evolve to adapt to their surroundings then what is the big deal about global warming? If man evolves, then they ought to forget about climate change and spend all that money on investigations into the existence of gnomes.

How evolution evolved

evolutionisajoke, usa — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 23:57:25 GMT

When scientists can ACTUALLY demonstrate that life could really have come about spontaneously and accidentally I will believe evolution. Don't say evolution in its entirety has been proven over and over again. Evolution is the newest religion. Evolution is a joke.

How evolution evolved

Peter, Portland, Oregon — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 00:37:43 GMT

[Ron wrote: "Can someone please explain to me why only one form of monkey evolved to the human race?]
One of the great misconceptions about human evolution is that we evolved from monkeys or apes. Wrong. In fact, monkeys, apes, and humans all evolved from a common ancestor (why we share 98% of our DNA with chimps). Humans and mice share some 80% of our DNA, also evidence of evolution from a common ancestor. Humans and fruit flies share some 50% of our DNA - again, evidence that we both evolved from a common ancestor.
I highly recommend "The Making of the Fittest: DNA and the Ultimate Forensic Record of Evolution" by Sean B. Carroll. The book introduces the Antarctic ice fish that today has no red blood cells; yet a fossilized gene for hemoglobin remains in its DNA, showing that the fish has adapted over 55 million years by losing the red blood cells that thicken blood and make it harder to pump in extreme cold. Other chapters explain how complex eyes have evolved from the simplest light-sensing cells or how primates evolved color vision.

How evolution evolved

Counter-Cultural — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 01:15:45 GMT

I've found several consistent trends with ardent supporter of evolution: (1) They are dismissive of bible-beliveing Christians as just superstitious and/or ignorant, (2) They blur the distinctions between mico-evolution [a scientific fact that has resulted in extensive bio-diversity] and macro-evolution, (3) When pressed on the glaring gaps in the fossil record, the fact that "specialization" is a reduction of genetic information, they will typically punt on gradualism and propose something like Gould's Punctuated Equilibrium, and (4) When pressed for a boligogical mechanism for Punk Eek, they will trot out some favorite examples of gradual, microevolution.

Nother favorite move is to try and dodge the moral implications of evolution. Read the Humanist manefesto and other writings of Darwin's contemporaries/followers, and you'll see they did not for a moment miss the implications. They immediatly embraced the moral "liberation" offered by evolution, and did not hide the fact that secular humanism is a religion that they conspired to promote though the pubilc school system. The historical writings are all there, for anyone open-minded enough to read.

A final move is to de-couple the problem of origins with biological evolution. They are correct that evolution strictly applies to changes within life forms after the origin. But for many atheists, the two are tied togther under a general belive that all life can be accounted for by purely material processes.

This can be subject to critical evaluation, without invoking any particular religion or creation mechanism.

Francis Schaeffer correctly pointed out that we have two possible starting points: we can start with time plus chance plus the impersonal, or we can begin with a Personal Being who thinks, acts and wills. Most atheists hold the former view. The big bang was purely material - just matter and energy. Ducking the questions of how that was created, and how such an event resulted in a self-ordering universe, we have time, chance and the the laws of physics. Blind and purposeless processes acting on matter. Now given enough time, the correct combination of chemicals and energy were arranged in such as way as to start life, and through the (blind and purposeless) processes of mutations and natural selection, that life became increasingly complex. The broad category for this worldview is "scientific materialism," and is dominant in current scientific thought.

However, since these are just natural, processes acting on (impersonal) material, there is no point at which we can interject purpose. Leading scientists and philosophers are following this to it's natural conclusion. Biologist William Provine states "There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning in life, and no free will." Cognitive scientist Steven Pinker (MIT) states: Ethical theory requires idealization like free, sentient, rational, equivalent agents whose behaviour is uncaused...(and yet)...the world, as seen by science, does not really have uncaused events." "Morals" and our apparent ability to act according to them, are labeled as evolutionary artifacts, useful for survival, but illusory.

These researchers and philosophers are carrying their belief concerning origins to the correct conclusion. However, they can not live by their supposed beliefs. They still hold others accountable for the morality (or lack) of their behavior, as if the persons had any free choice in the matter. The greatest irony is that they fail to apply this standard to their own scientific and philosophical beliefs. Those beliefs and any underlying rational thought used to arrive at them are subject to the same critique as any other. That is, they are just the inevitable result of a cause-and-effect sequence following physical laws. When you throw out the existence of rational thought, all the "thinking" you did to arrive at that position falls as well. C.S Lewis mailed this decades ago when he stated that he "..sees no reason for this last accident (materialism) to give a proper accounting of all the previous ones."

So the downfall of the non-personal starting point is that it fails to account for the world as based on or direct experience. Nancy Pearcy summed up the dilemma by saying that "...ethics depends on the reality of something that materialistic science has declared to be unreal." So why would so many well-educated, intelligent people hold to a belief system that so blatantly contradicts what they know is true? This is the verdict: Light has come into the world but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil (John 3:19).

My belief system starts with a Personal Being who thinks, will and acts. Evidence of intellegence (vast amounts of information, nano-technology, micro-machinery, assembly instructions) are present in the most "simple" life because it was created by an intellegent being. Morality, human dignity, free will, and the accountability that comes with those things are not just human inventions, evolutionary artifacts, or illusions because they are a reflection of the Creator. An an engineer and Christian I do not have to compartmentalize my science and faith, because they are both founded on the same Truth.

How evolution evolved

Steve T, Fountain Vally, California — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 01:32:42 GMT

@ Don Small. There are fossils of *the evolution of the modern horse over the last 50 million years* from Hyracotherium (size o.4 m) which evolved to Mesohippus which evolved to Merychippus which evolved to Pilohippus which evolved to Equus (aka the Modern horse & size 1.6m) over the last 50 millions year ~you are ignorant and too lazy to do the research and look for the evidence which is out there so you claim it does not exist. ~

How evolution evolved

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 01:34:55 GMT

Peter, Portland, Oregon (1/9, 1937) The idea that shared DNA *means* shared anscestry is quite common and has the feel of authenticity. But assuming no God and life came about spontaneously on our planet, we can only assume that there is the possibility it would do the same elsewhere, probably many elsewheres. Some alien life may be silicon based. (Silly life.) Our understanding of life, because our understanding is based on the life we can study, holds that some other spontaneous life would be carbon based. If carbon based life on earth followed a natural progression we can further assume that carbon based life on another planet would be at least likely to follow a similar progression. There is quite likely DNA based life that has nothing to do with our planet. I'm not at all willing to accept the notion that there's some magical vortex that makes a specific DNA here produce a specific trait that would produce a different trait on another planet that has a different magical vortex. I posit that there is a strong likelihood that we share at least a 50% similarity in DNA with many other, completely unrelated, lifeforms. Considering the different paths life on earth has taken and our genetic similarities to our homeworld life I would guess that there's a strong likelihood that there is a closer genetic match somewhere in the vastness of space than we can find here. That by evolutionary pressure and dumb luck. There is likely life out there that is no different from you and I than are other ethnic groups.

How evolution evolved

Linda Portland Oregon — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 01:49:04 GMT

Theory does not make it a fact. The science community is so narrow minded and unwilling to even allow any other theories such as intelligent design. When people who present intelligent design loose their jobs for presenting other possibilities it's time to pull my support both from the science community and from the educators who follow in their footsteps. I suggest that you rent the documentary "Expelled" if you really want to see what's going on in this country with regards to science.

How evolution evolved

Counter-Cultural — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 03:20:26 GMT

Peter (Portland) writes: Every cell in our bodies contains the proof in the form of shared code between species (for ex., the SLC24A5 gene shows humans and zebrafish share a common ancestor) and "junk" DNA that no longer functions as a result of evolving beyond the need for that function.
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A common ancestor is not the only valid explanation for a common gene. Any good designer will re-use components in multiple configurations and applications. As an engineer, I am aware of numerous, diverse systems that have common components, whether it be actuators, bearings or something as small as screws. No design "evolution" in the sense of small, successive changes between the two systems, but a common "pool" of design knowledge. That is, common components are typical for intellegent design.

Similary, there are many variants of the technology I work with. The best new innovations could never be arrived at by a series of small, slight variations. Somewhere a techology "leap" is required, such that the competitive advantage requires all parts of the system to be fully-functional before it is realized. This is the "hurdle" of irreducible complexity (IC). Now, I've read some great acedemic pieces on theories that supposedly overcome IC. We find this protien here, and this function in another organism, AND SO, it is POSSIBLE they all just combined in what amounts to a leap-frog advance in technology. OK, it is possible. But is that scientific evidence that it DID happen?

"Junk" DNA may be the an artifact of degradation over time. An organism that has adapted to a specific environment has lost information (and function) that would be of advantage in other.

Humans sharing 98% of DNA information with chimps does not prove common ancestory. As above, this may be evidence of a common designer. What evolutionists usually fail to point out is the information content of that 2%. Let's say, it is only the equivalent of one encyclopedia volume (you know it is much more). How long would it take to generate an encyclopedia's worth of new genetic information, one slight mutation per generation. Even making the generous assumption that several favorable (slight) mutations are realized each generation, all leading directly to this new information, the time span becomes enourmous. Historical time does not account for this. That is why the age of the earth is has increaed so much over the recent decade. Only the dating methods that return the oldest ages are given credibility, becuase we KNOW evolution is true and it requires the longest possible ages.

When you face the magnitude of the genetic information problem, the fossil record does not support the vast number of transitions required. That is what has led to rejection of gradualism by many leading evolutionary biologists. But absent gradualism what mechanism do biologists have for "leaps" in genetic information? So there is a split among experts in evolutionary biology, each one (correctly) pointing out where the other's theory breaks down, yet both somehow maintianing the larger theory still stands.

It has to, becuse the alternative of Special Creation is "unthinkable." But if life as we experience it was created by an outside intellegence, then these "scientists" are excluding, a priori, the Truth. Good luck with that...

How evolution evolved

Earl Cox, Redondo Beach, CA — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 04:02:04 GMT

Aaron’s discourse on science and God clearly reveals the problem with debating science and religion (or science versus religion). I find it incredibly more difficult to believe in God than to believe in the evidence, math, and experimental predictions of modern cosmology. When God becomes a universal explanation for everything, it becomes, at the same time, a meaningless mechanism for understanding the natural world. If we have no understanding of the process of natural selection, if we confuse this process with “accidents”, if we view humanity as the ultimate goal of either God or evolution, then there is no common ground for the discussion of how science works and how comprehensive theories evolve to explain diverse and complex phenomena. If we equate the use of the word ‘Theory’ in science with the use of Theory in everyday language (a guess, a hunch, an explanation that is just as good as any other guess or hunch) then we miss the beauty and elegance and descriptive power of a cohesive, explanatory body of evidence that can give us a deep insight into the workings of the cosmos. Science is filled with and is based on the idea of the theory -- The Theory of Relativity (both Special and General), the Theory of Plate Tectonics, the Theory of Quantum Electro-Dynamics (QED), the Theory of Quantum Chromodynamics (which concerns the behavior of quarks), and the Theory of Evolution (or Natural Selection), just to name a few. These theories have great explanatory and predictive capabilities. Yet, of all these theories, it is evolution that disturbs and frightens us the most. It robs us of both our special place in the world and our vision of eternal life after death. We are so terrified of this theory and the possibility that it might be true that we would rather live in ignorance or manufacture evidence to the contrary than face the truth. And what is the truth? Perhaps the truth is this -- we are just another species of animal life and when we die our mind, our personality and our life is gone forever. There is nothing after death except oblivion – our bodies return to atoms, and eventually even our atoms, in a few trillion millennia long after the last stars have died, will break apart into leptons and quarks and eventually into an imperceptible microwave hiss that will vibrate in the dead and lifeless and lightless and frigid cosmos for the next trillion, trillion, trillion millennia.

I don’t know whether God exists or not. I am neither an atheist nor an agnostic (in the popular sense). I would just like to see one scientific, controlled, double-blind experiment that even hints at the existence of a cause and effect relationship that cannot possibly be explained by anything other than a divine presence.

How evolution evolved

Greg — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 05:14:39 GMT

Not all that long ago, people believed the Bible was literally true. As more and more facts are uncovered, as we mature and can think logically and as new information is shown on programs like the Discovery Channel and Natural Geographics, it becomes obvious the Bible is not literally true. Where does that knowledge leave us? We can chose blind faith and the resultant reality of the extremes that can lead to, i.e.,suicide bombers killing children? With the advent of the Internet, as a species we are at a crossroads. We can stubbornly clinging to ancient contradictory sacred texts of unknown origin or we can evolve our thinking based upon all we have learned since they were written. I prefer evolution to stagnation and extremism.

How evolution evolved

Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 06:31:22 GMT

Ron Wilson, Cleveland you said " Can someone please explain to me (and I'm very serious here) why only one form of monkey evolved to the human race? It would seem to me that if monkeys evolved to humans over billions of years then all monkeys would have evolved and there would be no more of them on the planet. It just doesn't make logical sense. I'm not stupid by the way...engineer with a masters degree."

WOW. Are you serious? For one thing, humans are shown to be a branch of chimpanzee, not "monkeys". Both of whom have a common ancestor.. we are all a form of primate BUT certainly not over "billions of years". The earth itself is 4.6 billion years old and multicellular life is "only" some 600 million years old.

I just can't go any further with this. Go google human evolution for starters.

How evolution evolved

Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 06:50:49 GMT

It was Edwin Hubble in the 1930's that put real substance and stark reality into the enormity of the universe by way of expansion through his work at Palomar CA. Something that even Einstein realised he was still a student of and had to re-think.

I put Darwin right up there with those two. Darwin went out and did the real work. Pounded the pavement as it were and used pure reason and logic to explain his Galapagos finches and the reality of the diversity of their beaks. He asked the big questions and arrived at big answers.

How evolution evolved

JD, Seattle, WA — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 15:08:53 GMT

As best as I can recall about the last time I checked on it, the explanation of what happens when one adds vinegar to bicarbonate of soda was not covered by any of the Ten Commandments, which is fabulous . . .

Overall, I think that some combination of chemistry and physics provides a reasonably good explanation, which is simply spanky . . .

On the other hand, when one is pondering whether stealing or committing acts of aggression are bright activities, I think that the Ten Commandments provide much better guidance than Charles Darwin's Theory of the Evolution, Albert Einstein's Theory of Special Relativity, or Sir Isaac Newton's "Principia" . . .

And when one studies the history of everything, it is very easy to recognize that all the great scientists essentially had one common trait, which more than anything else was the innate ability completely and totally to be puzzled . . .

I have no difficulty whatsoever believing that GOD exists or that Darwin, Einstein, and Newton recognized and explained a lot of fascinating stuff, but so what . . .

Unless one is focused primarily on Philosophy, Psychology, Sociology, and Religion, none of it has much of anything to do with science, which of course is the problem . . .

Specifically, the problem is that all that stuff wanders so far from science that in the grand scheme of everything the result is that the cornerstone of science--the ability to be completely and totally puzzled--not only is discouraged but also effectively is prohibited . . .

All of it is great stuff on a spectacular level!

If one allows a bit of wiggle room in the definition and mechanics of "time", then the first few pages of "Genesis" not only are consistent with the most advanced theories of physics at the dawn of the early 21st century but also make for a great read, which is fabulous . . .

Did GOD actually say, "Let there be light!"?

Probably not, unless GOD happened to have completed His correspondence course on "English as a Second Language" just before He decided to create the universe . . .

More likely, GOD said or thought something else, but over the years perhaps whatever it was somehow was translated into English at least in a reasonably representative way, but how should I or anyone else know, really . . .

Overall, I think it makes more sense to learn Aramaic, Greek, Hebrew, and Latin and then to see if anything changes when the context is a bit more relevant than it does to base everything on what at the time in England was called the "King's English" . . .

Puzzles are grand FUN, and if one is able to maintain an open mind, then science is a great tool for exploring and solving puzzles, which is fabulous . . .

And it is all the more fabulous when one encourages and maintains the ability completely and totally to be puzzled by everything, because even though it probably is an allegory, recognizing the clue that occurs at the instant an apple falls when one is sitting underneath an apple tree, perhaps during a moment of delirium caused by influenza, can be a very enlightening event, which soon leads to a marvelous epiphany if one is able to connect the dots correctly . . .

Stated another way, promoting a theory to the status of a religion is not the brightest way to encourage the ability completely and totally to be puzzled by everything--even when a lot of it appears to make sense--and, in fact, it probably is the worst possible way to encourage the most important aspect of science, to the point that instead of encouraging it, the opposite happens . . .

From my perspective, I think it makes a lot more sense to build a big Horn Antenna like the one at Bell Labs in New Jersey, a Large Hadron Collider like the one coming online sooner or later, or a super-dooper space telescope and then to have the wherewithal completely and totally to be puzzled by something, which tends to happen most often when one does not have adamant established beliefs which prohibit general puzzlement . . .

I want puzzles--not beliefs and rules--when I am doing science!

Thanks!

How evolution evolved

Andy, San Diego — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 15:22:46 GMT

Come on folks - it's time to stop protecting our evolutionist fiends. Since we can't use one theory to prove another - let's get on with real, disciplined science and stop harbouring the zealots whose era is slipping into the past.

How evolution evolved

James N, Radford, VA — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 15:50:46 GMT

To TC from Philadelphia,

Your questions concerned the supposed non-existence of transitional forms, that is, fossils of organisms that represent midway forms from one species as it changes into another. Several points about this:
1) Your supposition that these transitional forms do not exist is just dead wrong. There are numerous examples in the fossil record of transitional forms, including forms that demonstrate steps from dinosaur to bird, from land-dwelling mammal to cetaceans (whales and dolphins), and from sea creatures to land creatures. One particularly illuminating example is that of Tiktaalik, a fossil representing a transition from sea forms to land forms. What is interesting about this particular fossil is that its existence and (temporal) location was predicted by evolutionary theory (one way to test a theory is to make predictions and try to verify or disprove them). Here is the scenario (my number of years may be wrong, but they are close enough and you'll get the gist): There are no fossils of land dwelling vertebrates from 400 million years ago, and there are fossils of land-dwelling vertebrates from 300 million years ago, so it is reasonable to assume that land-dwellering vetebrates appeared in the interval. Darwin's theory of evolution predicts there must be some transitional organism that displays characteristics of both sea-dwellers and land-dwellers at some point in this interval, so there might be fossils of such organisms in sedimentary deposits from this time. A large expanse of sedimentary deposits in Canada was discovered that ranged from 375 million to 300 million years old, just the right time frame. Paleontologists concentrated on these rock layers loooking for such a transitional form and within three years found it, Tiktaalik, which resembles an odd combination between a fish and a crocodilian.
2) You don't need fossils to see the effects of evolution. If you look at living whales, you will find vestigial leg bones in their living, breathing bodies. As a creationist, can you come up with a rational explanation for the existence of useless leg bones in sea creatures that don't need them? An evolutionist can. Also, evolution can be demostrated in real time among organisms that reproduce quickly, such as bacteria and insects. Creationists often dismiss this as "microevolution", showing that they do not understand the meaning of that term, but it doesn't address the simple fact that you can see it happening.
3)Your question about seeing the transition between a sparrow and a whale demonstrates a misconception about how common ancestry works. Think of it not as a line of progression, but like a branching tree. The common ancestor is the trunk, and all organisms alive today are the outer branches on the tree. Sparrows and whales, being very different, would be branches that are distant from each other and so not directly connected. Whales and dolphins, however, might be relatively close branches on the tree, so you could reasonably ask to find a recent common ancestor which displays the characteristics of both. If a given "species" (though that designation is problematic) is a branch, as it grows it could do several things:
It could end in a nub (extinction), it could change direction (changing the form of the species), it could split into two or more branches (speciation), or it could just keep growing in a straight line (existence). Sharks might be a good example of that last one; they've remained relatively unchanged for 300 million years or so, the mark of an effective structure.

If you wish to argue about the current theory of evolution, which is admittedly far from perfect and cannot answer every question we have about life, it would behoove you to educate yourself about which questions it has not answered and attack along those lines instead of along fronts that are already well-supported.

How evolution evolved

Daryl ND — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 16:15:47 GMT

The origin of species, not the origin of life!
If you'd like to dispute Darwin, at least argue the right issue. Are there people out there who believe God created life in each of its distinct forms? Are there people out there who believe that all species were created in 7 days? Are there people out there who believe the earth or its life forms have existed for only a few thousand years. It seems to me that these are areas where Darwin's ideas intersect with religious beliefs.

How evolution evolved

J bunkers — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 17:09:51 GMT

Religion is based on emotion and science is based on experimental observation and quantification. The human brain functions at a level of emotion that often overrides reason with disastrous results. Religion precludes science and often denies science in order to protect it's control over ignorance. Religion is a political force to control populations while science enlightens and expands the understanding of the cosmos. Science encourages questions while religion denounces science and those who pursue the scientific approach. Human civilization has not progressed because we insist on the emotion of religion over the objectivism of science. AMEN!!

How evolution evolved

Charles F. Toney, Plano, Texas — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 17:29:31 GMT

Charles F. Toney, Plano, Texas
If Someone out there created you, and hasn't given you the ability to know that He created you, how would you know He created you?

but

"If someone out there created you and did not want you to know it created you how do you know it exist?
Evolution Lives, Rochester, NY (Sent Friday, January 09, 2009 2:53"

Simple - Belief in GOD, religion, is built on faith. Belief in evolution is built on proof. Where is your proof of the "Origin of the Species"?

There is no proof of the "Origin of the Species" just as there is no proof of GOD's existance. Just faith.

How evolution evolved

Joe Cuchiara, Colorado Springs, Colorado — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 17:36:12 GMT

Consider this.

How did the evolving entity know there was sound and develop ears to hear, know there was something to see and develop eyes to see, know there was something to smell and develop a nose to smell, know there was something to eat/taste and develop a tongue, know there was something to feel and develop sensitivities to touch and pressure?

In the case of most, if not all, land dwellers, why are there two ears placed at either side of the head, two eyes instead of one eye, two nostrils as opposed to one?

Please tell me. How did every fruit, grain and vegetable evolve to accomodate the exact nutritional needs required to sustain life of the evolving entity at the exact moment needed?

Finally, how did the evolving entity(s) reproduce? Did male and female evolve at precisely the same time so as to propragate their species? If so how did the female entity evolve with the proper equipment to accomodate the male entity (or vice versa) and to give nourishment to the byproduct of their union?

These are questions I have pondered, any thoughts?

How evolution evolved

squirrel — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 17:45:54 GMT

***I don’t know whether God exists or not. I am neither an atheist nor an agnostic (in the popular sense). I would just like to see one scientific, controlled, double-blind experiment that even hints at the existence of a cause and effect relationship that cannot possibly be explained by anything other than a divine presence. ***

well said....

How evolution evolved

Loren, SF Bay Area, CA — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 18:11:46 GMT

@john:

I don't understand what sort of mindset it would take to infer that there is a "surplus of educated people." I don't think there's any such thing as having too many educated people, unless one has figured out how to profit from the stupid ones.

Looking at the news on a daily basis, I have to disagree with you. I believe that there is, if anything, a surplus of stupid people. I could provide plenty of evidence in product warning labels alone. I mean, why would a collapsible baby stroller have a warning label that says, "Do not collapse with child inside" unless someone was dumb enough to actually *try* it - and sue?

Fortunately, some of the extremely stupid ones, upon their untimely self-removal from the gene pool, provide us with entertainment. They get nominated for Darwin awards. :)

How evolution evolved

James B. Dickinson — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 18:14:22 GMT

Well here we go again, I can see why Darwin picked the ape as his ancester, take a good look at his face. It looks like He is the missing link! All he lacks is a hook in each hand and the mystry vanishes. Why is the world so determined to Call God a liar? If he was, then all of you evolutions have nothing to wory about. But if God was telling the truth, relaxe, you still have nothing to worry about until you are dead! But then you will have plenty to worry about for a very long time! But I would give pause and consider that,God in the old testament, and Christ and His Apostles said very pointedly that the world, and those who shall perish, would be filled with unbelief. That they would even deny, the very Christ that bought then, trying to keep these and those like them out of hell. But go ahead and fill up your sins, and wind up in your own place! Even a kind benivolent God, "That delivered up Christ for us all, cannot save people like you who refuse to believe! The only way that God could save the likes of you is to save you against your will and He will not do it, you want to go to hell and God being a gentleman, will not interfere with your fatal choice.

How evolution evolved

Dave, St Simons Island, Ga. — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 18:14:40 GMT

I recently spent over 8 hrs at Darwin's Museum, home and gardens outside London, Eng. and it was the highlight of my trip. There were tour busses from around the world, but few americans. Then I came home to read the US is second only to Turkey in the disbelief among its citizens in evolution. Not surprising; but then few americans are aware that the whacko fundamentalists who left Eng and Holland in the 16th and 17th C. for america we're politely 'asked to leave.'
Maybe its time to create a red state south of the Mason Dixon line and just get it over with. Like the pundit said: "Jesus might have turned water into winde, but only an american could turn beer into water."
Let's end all religions in the 21st C and try another approach to world peace; in other words 'evolve.'

How evolution evolved

Frank Glover, Rochester, NY — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 18:57:26 GMT

"Hey Hey, lets jump on the evolution bandwagon. If evolution is a fact then mutation has to take place in order for any organism to evolve, therefore cancer is an evolutionary process and should not be treated, so that the subjects may evolve."

No one said natural selection is kind to individuals. And as is said in most school science classes, *most* mutations are harmful, and leave the individuals *less* well-adapted to survive. A few, however, will find themselves with a trait (usually some enhancement or diminution of an existing trait) that makes them *more* likely to survive. And those are the ones that live to pass that trait on to their descendants. Mutations that affect only somatic cells (as in cancer) are a somewhat different story. And even then, it's possible for rapidly-dividing cancer cells to have differing resistance to a given treatment. If you don't get them all, you find yourself with a recurring tumor that's even more resistant than before.

Note that it's possible for a greater or lesser susceptibility to certain kinds of cancer to be genetic and inherited, but you still may not be exposed to whatever triggers it (you may be unusually sensitive to certain elements of cigarette smoke, but if you never smoke and avoid second-hand, it hardly matters), and if it does happen and kill you *after* you've likely had children, the defect won't be weeded out (selected against).

This is also why you must take *all* of your antibiotic regimen, even if you feel better before finishing. You don't want to stop before getting the bacteria that might survive something less than a full dose, or you get sick again, now with an *entirely* high-resistant strain.

And note that some enhancements to survival come at the expense of others. If you're light-skinned in Central Africa, expect constant skin damage from a (relative) lack of melanin. On the other hand, if you're dark-skinned in Europe where sun exposure is less of an issue, expect to be more susceptible to vitamin-D deficiency, because your skin makes its own less effectively from a (relative) excess of melanin.

Which one is more likely to kill you before you reproduce is a function of the environment you live in. (Of course, technology now allows humans to mostly take themselves out of that particular loop, thanks to options like vitamin-D in diet/supplements and clothing/shelter/sunblock)

"Also if organisms evolve to adapt to their surroundings then what is the big deal about global warming?"

Not *all* organisms can possibly adapt fast enough, especially big, slowly reproducing mammals, faced with rapid environmental changes, as opposed to rapidly reproducing bacteria. We call this 'extinction.' It often happens, even without our help.

But do you *want* to help it along?

And even with technology, can humans 'adapt' to that change, without significant death and suffering?

"When scientists can ACTUALLY demonstrate that life could really have come about spontaneously and accidentally I will believe evolution. Don't say evolution in its entirety has been proven over and over again. Evolution is the newest religion. Evolution is a joke."

You want to believe life began with divine intervention? Fine.

But after that...

You want to believe that species don't change due to changes in their environment? (that's what biological evolution is...Charles Darwin didn't try to say how life originally began) Then you can't believe in selective breeding, animal husbandry, dairy cattle, French Poodles and thoroughbred horses, either...

How evolution evolved

Frank Glover, Rochester, NY — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 19:08:13 GMT

"But I would give pause and consider that,God in the old testament, and Christ and His Apostles said very pointedly that the world, and those who shall perish, would be filled with unbelief. That they would even deny, the very Christ that bought then, trying to keep these and those like them out of hell...."

Meanwhile, what of those billions who 'believe,' but in a different individual or set of deities?

If 'evolution is wrong,' then whose creation story does one believe? They may be just as motivated by faith as yourself.

Or do you just go with what can be proven, and let the faithful of any belief, adjust to those provable facts as they wish? (Adjust? What's that? Religions evolve and adapt (or go extinct and become mythology) too?? Who would've thought?)

How evolution evolved

Justin Pettipas, Halifax, NS — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 19:22:42 GMT

There are extremely simple examples of evolution that are seen everyday and yet religous people refuse to accept it as fact. When you go to the gym and workout your body grows muscle and adapts to make the work easier. Is it such a stretch that generations would alter in order to adapt to environmental changes? Also you always hear about strains of bacteria that are resistant to antibiotics. This is later generations of the bacteria evolving to survive a hostile environment. With such simple examples that can't be argued why is evolution still be debated.

How evolution evolved

Ed Pardo — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 19:52:54 GMT

Nicely done article. You might have included a little about Goethe, Lamark and Cuvier as well as the newest conceptualization by Filler in his "Upright Ape".

How evolution evolved

Daniel Daly, Pawtucket Rhode Island — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 20:14:01 GMT

I find it amazing that Christians of all people will put down Darwinism and the overall theory of evolution and the fact it may have something to do with anything than a higher power when Christianity and religon itself is something that has gone through many stages of evolution itself over the course of time that Christianity is of all religon the pefect example or model for Darwins theory of "survival of the Fittest".

Science has disproved so much of modern religon it's amazing how people will still blindly follow something they can't see, touch or feel but blindly continue to support that belife as the the only thing that makes any sense even though the facts say otherwise.

How evolution evolved

Kuba, Concord, CA — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 21:26:25 GMT

Evolution is a fact. The Theory of Evolution has mountains of evidence. There is zero evidence for God. It does not take faith to not believe in god just like it doesnt take faith to not believe in Zues. Atheism, evolution and materialism FTW!!!

How evolution evolved

LAA (laughing at all) — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 22:39:38 GMT

In the beginning, whatever that means, Man created God to explain and influence those things that were not understood or could not be proven. As Man understands or proves additional facts about the universe which surrounds him, some of modern Man still attributes to God those things which remain unproven or not understood, some of modern Man tries to disprove or alienate those of modern Man who have created for themselves a deeper understanding of the universe which surrounds him, and some of modern Man no longer feels a need to use God as a crutch to explain those things that remain a mystery. All approaches are acceptable in the world of modern Man, so get over it. Accept and celebrate what we know AND what we don't. That which we do not yet understand or cannot yet prove, might always remain that way, and might not. Such is the universe we live in.

How evolution evolved

Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 23:16:31 GMT

I dare say that modern medicine and the future thereof works to increase the likelyhood of passing on deficient genes into the gene pool. Take the obese for instance. Obesity is often linked to defective genes dealing with metabolism, but prolonging the lifespan and therefore the potential for reproduction amongst the obese, or having one partner obese and the other not, will pass these genes into the future.

It's a cold fact that all humans are not endowed with "good" genes, for if they were, we wouldn't need a health care system in many ways.

How evolution evolved

Confused — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 23:43:35 GMT

If a supernatural being instigated this evolutionary process we humans at this time do not have any way of studying this. "Poof! A miracle occurs and life begins" cannot be acknowledged by any experiments or an observation that everyone can see - Thomas Detroit

Funny but isnt that EXACTLY what evolutionists claim happened in the primordial soup? Though you are right in that it cannot be acknoledged by any experiments as the years have shown. Despite many attemps and many recipes no succesful 'soup' has ever ben brewed - in fact Louis Pasteur proved (using 'verifiable observations and repeatable experiments') that life does not spontaneously evolve.

This then leaves us in the position (as others here have pointed out) that as far as the very begining of life is concerned the is little to differentiate betweeen an evolutionist or creationmist point of view, that is we are unable to scientifically show one or the other theory to be correct so that which ever we chose is based on faith (the evidence of things not seen as the apostle Paul puts it)

Moving on from there both camps have further problems.

Evlutionists - Where is all the 'proof' that so many have spoken of? What experiments show how an animal of one species can give birth to one of another, with different numbers of chromosomes (and therefore unable to replicate - unless all the many evolutionary steps were made by identical twins)Where is the evidence of all the missing links? How does a heart evolve? How about lungs? a system of arteries and veins? a brain to control them all? or an eye? Many claims have been made that evolution as a theory is in the same league as magnetism and gravity as theories. Unfortunatly whilst I Know that A dropped apple will fall to the ground no one has come up with satisfactory answers to the above

Creationists - as an engineer i'm inclined to accept the view that the complexities of the life and the universe as a whole shout of an incredibly intelligent designer but that is only part of the question. If you are to claim that God made the world, then you must accept that there has to be a reason for it. The Judao/Christian belief that it was so that He could be manifest begs some further questions Why would a being with the power to create the universe need something as comparativly insignificant as humans to appreciate it? Why create a world where in order to give them the free will to serve him they along with the rest of creation must suffer? Why create a world where (if you accept Christianity) the only way to save it is to watch your son being brutally murdered? These questions ask that although God must be unimaginally powerful - is He not also blinded by greed and self aggrandisment? Are these so human of emotions from Him?

How evolution evolved

Brian Vroom, Gresham, OR — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 03:01:45 GMT

Very interesting (but predictable) line of discussion. It is interesting how "dogma" as a facet of "philosophy" exists on both sides of the Evolution aisle. Just like the 2 super-issues - evolution and belief in a creator - require personal conviction and exclusivity of personal opinion, so almost all the posts show bias, selectivity, and even rancor. Why can't we just say: "My, that is interesting! How does that line up with my personal beliefs (or disbeliefs)? And how does that change my thought processes?"

After all, few here seem to really understand the scientific method, on either side of this divisive theme. We do the best observations we can, try to formulate a hypothesis of the "whys" and "hows" and test it. Only after a thought passes a gamut of testing and attempted attacks is it even a firm hypothesis. FACT and SCIENCE and TRUTH are not to be used in the same discussion. Just because high school texts and the pseudoscience rags refer to the LAW OF GRAVITY, remember that when Einstein introduced the General Theory in 1915, it turned the LAW of gravity on its head. Curved space-time is not as easy to see, test, or even imaging as what Sir Isaac gave us. For 300 years it was just as dogmatic among scientists as was the tenets of the Catholic Church. Ooops. On the other hand, it got us to the moon and works quite nicely for the average Joe. But even our modern understanding is far from TRUTH.

Unfortunately, Darwin's OOS has been both raised as Science Holy Scripture and maligned as demonic doctrine. But if it was just his best attempt to explain what he observed, then he is neither a saint nor a villain. But the rest of us noobs and goofballs (including myself) who waste time throwing either flowers at his grave or tomatoes at each other are missing the point. It is too bad we as humans (evolved species or created beings) can't listen and think without taking sides and establishing our own version of truth.

Darwin's explanations cannot be tested by scientific method, unlike the curvature of space or a chemical reaction. We are talking about an EVENT in time (or many, in an epoch that we can have no window to peer into. So why don't we CHILL OUT. If there is a creator/God, then it doesn't matter whether we believe or not, or are comfortable not being the master of our own destiny (oh wait, actually it was that RNA-world soup that formed my destiny....). And if ALL LIFE originally was a product of thermodynamics, chemical reactions and statistical probabilities (shake well, wait 10 billion years, Voila! Perfect human soufflé.), then that is what happened whether we like it or hate it, and whether our belief system is destroyed or validated by it.

How evolution evolved

Jay, Los Angeles CA — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 03:39:04 GMT

One phrase for you, that describes, explains and answers every question you have ever had, about life and our universe: "Billions of years of evolution".

How evolution evolved

Counter-Cultural — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 04:13:23 GMT

Frank from NY writes:

You want to believe that species don't change due to changes in their environment? (that's what biological evolution is...Charles Darwin didn't try to say how life originally began) Then you can't believe in selective breeding, animal husbandry, dairy cattle, French Poodles and thoroughbred horses, either...
----------------------------
This is a huge misunderstanding on the evolution/creation debate. Your examples are proven cases of selective breeding. All the genetic information is already present in the previous generations, and is selectively combined. When we develop a purebred dog, it has less genetic information than it's original predecessors. That is,the first parents had genes for a wide variation of traits. The variation is progressively reduced by only breeding pairs with the desired traits. Variation, and the associated genetic information, is reduced. There was, for instance a dog "kind" that could be bred over generations to produce a poodle. But no amount of breeding of the purebred poodles would ever return that original dog kind - the information for the other variants was removed.

Same for bacterial resistance. There is variation among the population. Those with resistnace to certain comditions will survie and propogate those traits (resistance), but this again
is selecting from existing genetic information.
When this happens in nature, we call it "micro-evolution," small succesive changes within a species driven by survivability.

Darwin took his observations of natural selection, and extrapolated to the idea that all species had a common ancestor. That is "marco-evolution." It implies that the simplest life could, by a series of slight (random) variations, eventualy lead to increasingly complex species. This requires the generation of massive new genetic information, and the design of entire systems. This is not supported by the commonly discussed examples of micro-evolution. For instance, Darwin's finches had beaks varying by the enviormental conditions - allowing them to remain finches, not to become something else.

The information content in even the simplest life, and the differential between the information in different forms are keys for establishing the plausibility of macro-evolution. Darwin thought there really was such a thing as "simple life." We now know that a single cell, and the building blocks of the cell, contain highly-regulated micro-machinery, transport systems, copying and error-checking systems, and the ASSEMBLY INSTRUCTIONS for producing and operating each component. Massive information coded in the most efficient data storage and retrieval system known to man.

Admittedly, neo-Darwinian thoery does not deal with where the informational content was provided for the first life. But it supposes that mutations and natural selection are processes capable of combining to generate staggering amounts of new information. In a sense, that the simplest for had the potential to accidently design forms of ever-increasing complexity. This has never been scientifically demonstrated, and is not supported by the examples cited above.

How evolution evolved

Don, Morinville, Alberta — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 04:33:45 GMT

If "Evolution" is a theory because we can't prove exactly how life was started on this planet, then the existence of "GOD" is also a theory because we can't prove or dis-prove he exists. I don't believe that "HE" has revealed himself (we only have the writings of such revealings writen by man hundreds of years ago) in such a way as to confirm his existence scientifically. And writings written hundreds of years after the so-called appearances don't exactly prove anything, after-all the Church has re-written "history", as have governments and civilizations to suit their own needs numerous times.

How evolution evolved

Earl Cox, Redondo Beach, CA — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 06:52:20 GMT

Threads like this are common in news groups and blogs across the internet. It's the same over and over and over and over again: first, the scientists (or science literate commentators) don't know how to articulate a coherent compelling argument for natural selection and don't know how to answer objections; second, the "people of faith" and the creationists have only a vague and rudimentary understanding of science (and the meaning of a scientific Theory), fail to appreciate the vastness of geologic time, have almost no real knowledge of what Darwin actually said or what modern evolutionary science involves, and attribute evolution to processes that go from chaos to a completed eye or ear in just one step.

And then there are the "fair minded mediators" who say that science and religion are both acts of faith, that science hasn't proven evolution just like religion hasn't proven God, and so forth and so forth. Almost all of these people are closet creationists who think they can attack evolution by putting it on par with religion.

And then there are the trolls who just want to stir up the fight -- alternately attacking the science guys and then the religious guys.

And then there are the True Believers who remind us that God can do anything, that "something" cannot not come from nothing, that life is too complex to have come about without a master designer, etc. The believers know little science and are content with their comforting faith.

And then there are the Philosophers who think that science is a cultural phenomenon, or science is a bunch of biased observations (esse est percipi est), or that science just one way of looking at the world and is just as good as Taoism or pantheism or any other form of "world describing" metaphysics. Hence they stress, like the creationists, that evolution is 'just' a theory (akin to conspiracy theories, of "I have a theory about why Ted broke up with Sue").

Alas, we are never going to have a rational, clear, directed, and focused debate on the issues of science and religion until the level of science education in our schools greatly improves.

How evolution evolved

Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 08:50:28 GMT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlii4SPt3Xc&feature=related

How evolution evolved

Slartibartfast, Chapel Hill, NC — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 09:34:27 GMT

As a scientist working in a field that relies on understanding built on the Theory of Evolution, I feel the need to try and clear up some of the misunderstandings in this forum. As has been said here before (but bears repeating), the term 'theory' in science does not refer to a guess (that would be a hypothesis) - 'theory' means a hypothesis which has been tested by countless experiments and proven to have considerable explanatory power. Theories are never proven (science doesn't prove anything), but they have a mountain of evidence that supports them. There are over 200,000 scientific papers on evolution, each of them representing evidence that a hypothesis resulting from the Theory of Evolution is correct. There are no papers (or any other evidence for that matter) that support the conclusion that any hypothesis based on intelligent design is correct. I am sure that given the fact that there are many well funded creationist groups that any experimental proposal to test a hypothesis based intelligent design would be easy to find support for. The only reason that no such experiments have been done is that intelligent design has no explanatory power so there are no hypotheses to test. Evolution is not a religion as some here have asserted, neither I nor anyone else 'believe' in evolution. Rather, we know that the theory of evolution is the best available framework to explain the evidence that we have. If another theory could do better scientists would abandon it without a second thought (it is very unlikely, however, that a better theory exists). There have been times when widely held scientific theories were incorrect and people came along with better theories that were dismissed by the mainstream. These people then accumulated evidence to support their theories through painstaking research and eventually changed the mainstream thought (there is a name for people like this, quite frequently it is something like 'Nobel laureate'). This can be done in science because it isn't a belief system, but a framework for how to understand the universe and scientists aren't swayed by emotional argument, but by empirical evidence. As for the assertion (by counter-cultural) that information is never created, one common mechanism of evolution (which has been observed) is for a gene (the DNA blueprint of a protein) to be copied then one of the copies to be changed (via mutation) in a way that allows the mutated protein to perform a new function. This (experimentally verified) method clearly adds information to the genome via evolution. Moving on to the idea that there aren't any (or aren't enough) transitional forms: Search Wikipedia for 'transitional fossils' and you will find a list of about 30 transitional forms that have been found. Given the number of fossilized species that have been found, this is just about the number of transitional forms that we would expect. Of particular interest is the case of 'tiktaalik' mentioned above (the transitional form between fish and reptiles). The theory of evolution predicts that such a transitional form should occur just before the advent of reptiles 370 million years ago. Guided by this, researchers went looking for fossils in the appropriate strata and found tiktaalik in strata that was 375 million years old. This is just one example (among thousands) of a prediction made by evolution being verified. On to Sam Walker's comment about cancer (and this is personal to me, as I do cancer research). Cancer, in fact, is a microcosm of evolution - this is what makes it so hard to cure. If you kill 99.999% of a tumor, what you have just done is evolve a strain (the remaining 0.001%) that is resistant to the method you just used. Those of us who do cancer research have seen how evolution works (albeit in a terrible way). This brings up another point which is that scientists don't make moral judgments about evolution - we don't think that the theory of evolution is good or bad, just that it is correct (based on a mountain of evidence) and we will not willingly ignore what we know to be correct just because it steps on some people's beliefs. Finally, on the issue of the origin of life (which is NOT a part of the theory of evolution, although certainly related and an interesting question on its own). It has been suggested that science asserts that life occurred by some wildly improbable 'miraculous' event. This is just not correct. What the people researching this are trying to show is that given the right conditions (specifically the conditions that existed around the time we think life began on this planet) it is possible for the elements of life (amino acids and RNA) to spontaneously form and furthermore, that given these elements of life that some sort of primitive life forms will emerge. I admit that scientists have not yet been able to show this conclusively, but there are people working on it and someday (hopefully soon) they may be able to tell us how life could have begun and prove that it is possible (or even probable) that this is how it actually happened.

Returning to an earlier (and, in my opinion, much more interesting) topic of altruism and self-sacrifice: As these actions run counter to individual survival and thus are unlikely to be genetically based (certainly biological evolution suggests that they would not be selected for) it would be easy to say that evolution cannot account for them. If, however, we look at sociological evolution (the evolution of societies) rather than biological evolution, I think that an argument can be made that a) altruism and self-sacrifice are transmitted by society (they are learned, not innate, behaviors) and b) these traits, while disadvantageous individually, help the society as a whole, thus evolution suggests that societies that exhibit these traits will have an advantage over societies that don't.

How evolution evolved

Phillip P — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 10:45:22 GMT

Americans are hilarious.

How evolution evolved

Raymond — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 10:54:47 GMT

Why does one tiny little branch of a branch of science attract so much attention? Almost all of science is in flux as is this one. Dalton's theory of the atom was found to be inadequate and was later dropped in favor of better theories. Intelligent design or Creationism never had a solid basis to begin with so just drop it or find some actual falsifiable evidence.

How evolution evolved

Sam Cogar, Burnsville, WV — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:24:13 GMT

Solved: the Creationist – Evolutionist Argument

The Creationists are always telling the Evolutionists, …. “Not so”, ….. while the Evolutionists are always telling the Creationists, …… “It is so”.

And why is this you ask. Well now, a simple explanation will suffice.

It is because of the two completely opposite approaches used to understand and solve the mystery of the origin of life.

The Creationists chose humans, one of the most complex animals that has ever existed, as their “study specimen”. And what they found in said human “specimen” were so many complex and interactive parts and pieces that it boggled their mind and the only thing that they could possibly conclude is that their “specimen” had to have been “created” by a superior being or intelligent designer.

The Evolutionists chose the most simplest of all life forms as their “study specimens”. And what they found in said “specimens” were very simple parts and pieces that performed a specific function. And with their knowledge and understanding of the simple parts and pieces they next chose “specimens” whose parts and pieces were just a wee bit more complex and reasoned out how it was possible that the very simple parts and pieces could have evolved, via mutations, into the wee bit more complex parts and pieces of their new study “specimens”. And on and on, repeating the same procedure with more and more complex life forms.

Thus, when an Evolutions looks at another human, one of the most complex animals that has ever existed, he does not see a variety of complex and interactive parts and pieces that boggles his mind. He sees hundreds of simple parts and pieces that have evolved via mutations into the many complex and interactive parts and pieces that the human animal consists of.

If one wishes to become a building architect, they do not start by studying the construction of the Burj Dubai or the CN Tower in Toronto, they start by studying the construction of an 8’ by 10’ outbuilding.

How evolution evolved

Jonas Lindelöf — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:31:15 GMT

Darwin's theory of evolution is like the concept of democracy; the best we got so far. Competition is not everything. Curiosity, another part of evolution, will make sure that we will refine our thinking and come up with better explanations and definitions in the future. The real problem with Darwin's thoughts is for me that he focused way too much on competition and way too little on collaboration. Maybe it goes in waves like Riane Eisler is saying in her book The Chalice and The Blade: Our History, Our Future, describing the partnership model and the domination model. You could say that the former is about collaboration and the latter about competition.

Note: Princeton anthropologist Ashley Montagu called Riane's book "the most important book since Darwin's Origin of Species" :)

How evolution evolved

Mark Sharp, Houston Texas — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 12:09:56 GMT

I always thought that the whole evolution versus creationism was little more than a fight between two extremist factions that cannot and do not even try to see where the other is coming from and want to bend the other to their paradigm because they falsely believe that the world would be a better place if everyone felt as they do. Which is pretty much the fallacy of the fanatic.
Simple fact of the matter is we do not know and never can truly know how life started. We can have some damn good ideas and we could have actually recreated the process we think happened in a lab but it does not mean that is how it happened. There is always multiple routes to the same destination, if you get my meaning.
People need to give up the unreasoning fear of the unknown that leads to this silliness and get over their selves. It is impossible to truly "know" anything, much less the "truth". It's ALL belief.

How evolution evolved

Chuck, Clearfield, PA — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 13:12:47 GMT

Evolution does not exist! If you will go to http://www.answersingenesis.org/ and truely explore the site with an open mind you will see that EVERYTHING about evolution has been PROVEN false! Thank GOD for Ken Hamm and people like him who have taken the time to prove that evolution is a bunch of bunk!

How evolution evolved

John Watts, Tampa FL — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 13:13:33 GMT

Wow, now that is some breakthrough indeed.

JT
www.privacy.de.tc

How evolution evolved

James, Birmingham, UK — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 13:24:45 GMT

"BOB, San Diego California

God's word, which was written thousands of years before the Evolutionary theory was even though of. His word has been tested, proven and discovered to be factually correct."

You say his word was written thousands of years ago - by who? Who invented writing Bob? Humans did, and in what language was it written down? Can you find an original copy to see what they thought God's word was or are you going to read an English translation of Latin translation etc.

Try copying and pasting this comment into google translate, go from English to Japanese to French to Chinese to Spanish to Gaelic and then back to English. Show it to someone else and ask them to read it, correcting any obvious mistranslations and see how well it matches up to the original.

Now that we have established that indeed the current version of scripture is true to the original or perhaps we haven't, we come to the question of which god's word we listen to. Aboriginee? Judaism? Choose one of the 1000 or so versions of pick'n'mix christianity? The word of Muhammed, who even his six wives agreed was prone to having revelations that suited his mood? Russell's teapot? Zeus? Jupiter?

Now show me where they were all proved to be factually correct. How was his - why always male anyway - word tested?

How do you prove Jesus was born of a virgin - if you found his DNA you could easily do it, using scientific facts that only make sense in evolution.

God created plants before he created day and night? So for two days plants were able to live without light, but in the '6000' or billions of years since, depending on your point of view, they have needed sunlight to live.

Women are made from the ribs of men?
Snakes can talk?
Men can ascend vertically into the sky without any form of propulsion - why is god in the stratosphere anyway?
Five loaves of bread and two fish can feed 5000 people?

Why do people believe this kind of stuff? What possible benefit is there to your life to delude yourself in such ways? Do you look both ways when crossing the road? If you do, why not suspend your belief about the existence of cars instead, surely that would be easier than taking the time to observe the world around you.

--------------------------------------------

As to the multitude of comments about 'no species in transition' 'gaps in the fossil record', all you are proving is your own ignorance of the theory. The evidence for evolution would be in no way diminished if we had no fossils at all. A species does not suddenly change from raptor to eagle, every species is a transition but evolution is such a slow process that in the typical human lifetime of ~70 years we don't see it in most organisms. Although think about what MRSA means and we do in fact see it.

How evolution evolved

Steve Yarnall, West Palm Beach, FL — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 13:28:30 GMT

Going to college in the 60's, I remember the first line of a textbook. "Evolution is a fact not a theory" Seems to me that after 50 years the public has not grasped this.

How evolution evolved

brian metz, blue springs, missouri — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 14:50:23 GMT

there is no question that religion is totally driven by ones increadibly selfish desire to live forever. why else would a normal person completely ignore the vast amount of scientific discoveries, not only under our feet but in space as well. every choice that we make through out our lives, is based on fact finding and evidence to support your decision, EXCEPT RELIGION. but please, don't change your minds for at least 3 or 4 years. there would not be enough used car sales jobs for all the out of work preachers.

How evolution evolved

BMS, VA — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:07:50 GMT

Boyle, you idiot!

How evolution evolved

adam — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:31:04 GMT

Evolution created man. Man created god. End of discussion. Now go evolve, the time for fairy tales is over.

How evolution evolved

David Feith, Colorado Springs, Co — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:55:12 GMT

The real problem is that no two people who have commented here would define "evolution" in exzctlty the same way. Survival of the fittest isn't arguable. The developement of characteristics within a species over time isn't arguable. The developement of a new species from an evolutionary model is absolutely ridiculous. The giraffe requires tens if not hundreds of simultanious mutations each of which would be fatal without ALL of the others. That pretty much rules out survival of the fittest along the way through "billions and billions of years."
I often wonder where in the evolutionary process these chemical reactions that somehow managed to reproduce themselves and became "living", developed intelligence. How does a dead chemical molecule even with the ability to team up with a bunch of others somehow become smart? Where does the second LAW of thermodynamics come into play? Where in this process of evolution could sexual reproduction have just popped up as the next "fittest" survival technique without a whole lot of useless mutations being dragged along for billions and billions of years in two separate strains until those two got to exactly the right condition at precisely the same time (with no "fitness" pushing it along the way) and then figured out what they were supposed to do.

It takes a lot less faith to believe in God.

How evolution evolved

John Hogg, Bedford, Tx — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 16:08:10 GMT

In the end though the human body is simply a collection of chemicals that over billions of years just randomly happened to come together the right way and form life. This certainly happened other plces so not only aren't we alone in this universe we probably arent close to the most advanced lifeform.

How evolution evolved

Danny- Troy, Ohio — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 16:52:03 GMT

Creation is an ongoing process that we call evolution.

How evolution evolved

David Martin, Dover, NH — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 17:11:32 GMT

If Evolution is so settled as a theory, why does the controversy, The Great Debate, continue? Isn't it because evolution, like the Oort Cloud, has never been directly observed?

I've participated in various discussions/debates, which show the science is case against evolution. There is far too much complexity, design, and intelligence to believe random chance and mutations are behind it all.

How evolution evolved

Maddy, Kansas — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:38:55 GMT

I love creationist logic or lack of, when they say it's hard for them to understand evolution (which is quite obvious when they start trying to explain it) and find it easier to believe some invisible deity just made everything pop into existence.

How evolution evolved

San Jose — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:43:11 GMT

Some very interesting observations after reading all the comments so far and my own observations from learning global history and current events in the world!

Evolutionists are still evolving their knowledge by researching, experimenting, theorizing, hypothesizing, reasoning, listening to others and learning from others, with an open mind. And I have not seen bands of Evolutionists running around the globe with a copy of "Origin of Species" or other scientific journals and threatening people with eternal damnation or hell or purgatory or killing them for not believing in Evolution. And neither I have seen any Evolutionists blowing themselves up and killing others for some promised prize (land, life, garden, heaven, etc). It is the research, experimentation and open minds that has brought us vaccines, health, longevity, drought resistant crops, air and space travels, and greater understanding of inter-dependence amongst all living species in the world.

On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence that the Creationists (Judeo-Christian-Islamic faiths) think they have all the answers only in their "Book" (Old testament, Genesis, New Testament, Bible, Quran, etc.) and their God is the Creator of the world, and all other species were created on this world are for their wanton consumption. Symbiosis is not a word in their “Book”. If you do not obey their “Book” or believe in their “God”, you are doomed with eternal damnation, hell, purgatory or should be killed because you are an infidel. People should be coerced, enticed, bribed, bought or threatened to believe in their God or exterminated. These people have justified slavery, mass murders and annihilation of entire cultures around the globe based on their God and faith. The Mayas, Incas, Aztecs, Native Americans, and many indigenous people in the world have been killed because their gods were not the right God, or forcibly converted to Christianity or Islam. The Spanish Conquistadors, Roman Catholic or Christian missionaries in the Americas/Pacific Islands/Philippines and elsewhere, the Crusaders, the Islamic expansion into Africa, Asia and Indian sub-continent, etc. has killed hundreds of millions of innocent people (men, women and children) in the name of God. And this is only in the less than last 2000 years! Look at the current mess in the Middle East and elsewhere and see how innocent people are being killed around the globe in the name of God. There is overwhelming evidence that the “Book” or “God” has been root cause of human misery, destruction of ancient architectures and civilizations, exploitation of natural habitats, etc. around the globe.

But then again, evidence, research, experimentation, hypothesis, reasoning and scientific proof mean nothing to the mind that is closed and content with faith. And my recommendations to the Creationists, if you truly have faith in your God, stop taking the medicines developed by the scientists for your various physical ailments, stop doing Yoga and meditation for your mental health – it has roots in Hinduism and Buddhism.

May be, just may be, it is possible that the human species that adopts a broader understanding of other faiths and philosophies, the laws of nature, the universe around us, and learns from evidence and research will evolve. And fossils of the extinct human species will be found in cemeteries and mausoleums.

How evolution evolved

Ivan, Alabama — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:33:50 GMT

Drustan Light, Mckinney TX. Jan 9 2:24pm. I loved your metaphor of the beach. And Bullwhip Griffin Jan 9 3:26 pm. Both of your comments sums up the open mind anyone wanting to fully understand the world around them has to have. The quest for knowledge is a life long journey. And that journey has to be traveled by each individual though the many twists and turns that new information brings. The Dogma of organized religon that states that theirs is the answer,close your mind,search no farther, believe only what we tell you to believe. Tells me by my reasoning that they are wrong. But each individual must make their own choice. That is what freedom is all about. And that is a right that is worth fighting/or dieing for.

How evolution evolved

Raina Mills Portland,OR — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:43:25 GMT

As Richard Bach so eloquently put it, "It's all illusions!"

As Human beings, we should understand the limitations of our own perceptions, and the senses that we are differently "gifted" with. Each individual has his/her/their own perception of the Universe and how or why it exists. It is fun and challenging to experiment with different hypotheses, determining which ones are verifiable, in order to enhance our collective understanding. Isn't it wonderful that as time progresses we [humans] are able to gain an increasingly more accurate representation of the processes that have led to the existence of the world we know today?

Religion serves a very specific purpose for our own psychological needs, and every human must have some sort of internal belief structure (be it religious or otherwise: i.e. aliens, mythology, etc.) to function successfully. It is an important facet of our existence not only because it informs our decision making, but also because it is what has kept people from going insane when faced with harsh reality. It helps us continue on and persevere in the bleakest of circumstances. If religion in some form did not exist we would not exist either, because too many people would have given up on living altogether a very long time ago. If we didn't feel we had a higher purpose or something to live for, when times were rough people would begin to say, "Well, what's the point of living anyway?" People would question bringing offspring into the world, especially during times of deep depression when resources are scarce. That would be a very disappointing end to our existence.

Both science and religion (or alternate belief systems) are crucial our lives in that both are necessary for our survival. Although science and religion often serve very different purposes or needs, that does not mean they must be mutually exclusive.

It is important for people to learn to respect each other, and to respect the myriad of views that exist in the world. Diversity is the spice of life and should be celebrated not condemned.

If everyone were aware of the many holes we have in our perception, people would not be so quick to assert that they have the "correct" view on our "evolution" or "creation" or whatever "it" is. That is why I continually challenge my own views of our human world, so that I may one day gain a more comprehensive understanding of the plethora of forces that exist, how they affect me and others, and how these alter our discourses and help determine our future.

We are all part of the Is...

How evolution evolved

Frank Glover, Rochester, NY — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 21:37:13 GMT

"If a supernatural being instigated this evolutionary process we humans at this time do not have any way of studying this. "Poof! A miracle occurs and life begins" cannot be acknowledged by any experiments or an observation that everyone can see - Thomas Detroit

Funny but isnt that EXACTLY what evolutionists claim happened in the primordial soup? Though you are right in that it cannot be acknoledged by any experiments as the years have shown. Despite many attemps and many recipes no succesful 'soup' has ever ben brewed - in fact Louis Pasteur proved (using 'verifiable observations and repeatable experiments') that life does not spontaneously evolve."

And yet, one can easily get amino acids and other precursors of life.

One can argue that it's improbable that one can go on from that to get something self-reproducing, but you also have to keep in mind that you also had oceans (and possibly other environments) in which this could occur, and plenty of time to 'wait.'

Look at it this way. If there's a one in a billion chance of a certain event happening to a human somewhere on Earth in any given day...it's still happening about six times a day.

And that's just one day.

Even fairly improbable events happen, if you can try them enough times, over a long enough period. One set of flasks over a reasonable experiment duration doesn't necessarily prove or disprove anything, though you may well see *some* continuing changes, even if not to the point of self-reproduction.

Even so, it's closer than you may think:

http://online.kitp.ucsb.edu/online/evonet07/szostak/

http://discovermagazine.com/2004/jun/cover/?searchterm=creating%20life

http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/1996/09.12/CreatingLifeina.html

How evolution evolved

beograd srbija — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:18:47 GMT

I wish the word "theory" would have been defined. Its meaning is very different to scientists than it is to the general population.

How evolution evolved

Shawn, Yucca Valley, CA — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 01:43:59 GMT

I remember from high school one of the basis of biology: like produces like. So I have one question, at what point do ever so slight differences between parent and child, produce an entirely different species? The parent bore the child, who then becomes the parent to its own child, etc.; each of the same species.

How evolution evolved

Lisa, San Diego,CA — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 01:52:32 GMT

Sorry,

All the attemps of educational brainwashing regarding the theory of evolution did not work on this girl. But I must admit-I almost partially fell for it.

But then again the desire to either justify in your mind there is no intelligent designer (whew-you think your off the hook!) or for Christians who believe in this bogus theory-to make compromises in order to be in touch with the popular opinion. (which is what I was in line to do.)

At this point in time I've looked at both sides and there is no way I could ever buy into this nonsense. All it really takes is some common sense. If you have the ability to look around at all the wonders of this universe and believe that it was created by random chance then you may just be a hopeless case. Evolution is not a fact. It's just a theory and a wrong one at that. There is plenty of scientific evidence to the contrary if you're brave enough to search it out.

There is a vast difference between having knowledge and having wisdom.

For those of you who fell for this Evolutional theory I just don't know what to say. It's beyond words. Wishful thinking at best. Unfortunately too many of you will eventually find out the truth the hard way.

I don't need to go into detail about that one. You already know.

How evolution evolved

Dan, Missoula MT — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 09:16:33 GMT

The idea that the theory of evolution is as sound as the theory of gravity, physics, ect.. would depend on which theory of evolution one is referencing. For instance an experiment of gravity can be tested, measured and repeated. i.e. I can drop an object measure its velocity and distance travled to come up with a measurement for gravity and repeat. An experiment in evolution can also be tested measured and repeated. i.e. I can cause the mutation of an allele and measure the change in the protien, organism ect.. I can then repeat the experiment and obtain the same outcome under the same circumstances. What I cannot do is test the theory that given an amount of time and a number of mutations one organism has "evolved" from another. This is an observation about past events and connot be observed, measured, or repeated. If there is a study that demonstrates a new functional biological process (i.e. new genetic information that results in new functional protiens not simply benificial variations of a similar processes/protiens) due to random mutation than please show me otherwise publish or perish.

I once asked my microbiology professor if anyone had ever repeated a process of prokaryotes evolving into eukaryotes in a lab. His response to the laughter of the class was a mocking "Hmmm let me see has anyone been able to due in a lab what it took millions of years of evolution to do? I don't think so."

Evolution can be used to show how great variation among species came about i.e. the many different breeds of dogs that are suited for their enviornments. What you infer from this depends upon your wordview a Darwinian evolutionist would state that this is an prime example of the "more fit" organism dominating in a given enviornment. This is also in perfect agreement with a creationists model of variation of the "kinds" of animals created by god to better "fill" the Earth. The "facts" are there for everyone to see, what you interperate form those facts depends upon your worldview.

I believe in the bible, and I have done my research. I am not a religious fanatic who is stuck in the bronze age. Please no matter what you beliefs I would encourage you to do your own research, study the evidence for yourself and remember no one is an impartial observer its not possible.

How evolution evolved

Cindy, NC — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:11:23 GMT

What's all the fuss about? Either you believe in God, or you believe in evolution, or you believe God created everything THROUGH evolution. When you think of God as a SPIRIT PERSON, not just some abstract IDEA, you begin to marvel at the intelligence He must have to create all the spirit beings (angels), all the lifeforms on earth, all the plants and vegetation, all the stars in the sky, etc. God gave us a brain and the ability to learn....and love.
As for humans being the only species who "practice" altruism, NOT SO. I have witnessed on several occasions a mother dog or cat taking food to its young, while going without food itself. The same can be said for a dog who risks its own life to protect its owner... Is it possible that emotional attachments could have resulted from evolution???

How evolution evolved

Tom F. Chicago IL — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 14:59:21 GMT

Well I believe in evolution:

1. Every human is no the same, some of us get sick while others are well. That in a nutshell is survival of the fittest.

2. Anti-biotic resistant bacteria, how could they develop resistance if they are not adapting or evolving.

3. Intermediates, this is a tough one questioning evolution. By definition a species is a group of organisms capable of producing fertile offspring. Chimpanzee are not far away from humans. There are fish capable of walking on their fins. There are animals capable of limited flying without wings.

4. If there was divine creation that why should we have sun orbit the earth. Why should be there so much wasted space in the Universe to see another form of life. Why are there so many religions in the world.

5. For the religious ones. If we humans created intelligent robots capable of thinking for themselves. And these machines in the end realized they need not obey the humans and killed us all. Who's fault is it that the murder took place. The humans for creating imperfect robots or the robots not realizing they are committing sin. Why should we humans be responsible for our sins if we were created capable of sin. Would you want your children to carry eternal sin when you say you love them.

How evolution evolved

Tony, Allen, Texas — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 15:40:40 GMT

I don't understand why God could not have created the diversity of life through evolution? Look at Genesis: The universe and earth were created, then the waters and land, then animals, then people. That's the same order scientist use. People 2000 and 4000 years ago could not comprehend the millions and billions of years this would take, so could they have written 7 days so they could answer their 3 year olds questions?

And as all things require a designer, including a toothpick, answer me this: who designed and created God?

How evolution evolved

Marshall Sprague, Willis, Texas — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 16:19:51 GMT

The claimant bears the responsibility to prove their claim(s).

Creationists have only to point to the Bible for their proof.

Scientists acknowledge they do not have and my never find all of the answers. However, scientists are constantly expanding the body of knowledge.

The strength of the scientific method to challenge new ideas and even generally accepted or "proven theories" is that new facts may alter or even eliminate an accepted fact-based conclusion or may generate new paths of knowledge.

That strength can be characterized as a weakness because what scientists know is always changing.

How evolution evolved

Joe the trucker — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:40:04 GMT

For those of you with bad backs, arthritis, hay fever, other allergies, thank the intelligent designer that also made you sweat on humid days when it obviously doesn't help you cool down. Also look at penguins, an animal that highly inefficient at moving. If there was a designer it certainly wasn't intelligent. If life and all it's complexities were truly reviewed as a product it would be given a c grade at the best.

How evolution evolved

I am the missing link — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 20:20:49 GMT

U Mark, St. Louis,

I think that counterarguing evolution by teaching creationism, ID, or whatever in school would not be a problem (and would be beneficial) if said was taught in a theology class. However, these ideologies can absolutely not be taught in a science class as evolution is. This is for one simple reason: Evolution has been and continues to be tested under the scientific method, just like any theory has been formed from tested hypotheses; however, creationism, ID, cannot be put through the test. It takes faith and should be dicussed theologically, which is unlikely in public schools (separation of religion and state). Simple.

How evolution evolved

BEGGING THE QUESTION — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 20:45:14 GMT

1. To say that humans are so complex that they must have been "designed" is self-supporting logic, known as BEGGING THE QUESTION. It's a logical fallacy.

2. Humans are no more complex than any other organism.

3. The assumption that other organisms DO NOT have self-awareness is not proved, or provable.

4. The assumption that "inanimate" objects are not conscious or self-aware is also unprovable. How do you know that galaxies (or even microbes) don't think and contemplate their own existence?

OUR ONLY "PROOF" THAT HUMANS ARE COMPLEX AND INTELLIGENT IS OUR OWN OPINION OF OURSELVES.

CREATIONIST ENGINEERS: Please list the projects you have worked on. I'd rather not ride an elevator designed by a guy who believes in fairy tales, or whose understanding of science is so weak they must attribute their own existence to a big Engineer In The Sky!

NOBODY QUESTIONS ATOMIC THEORY, EVEN THOUGH NO DIRECT EVIDENCE EXISTS FOR MOST OF IT. EVOLUTION IS A HOT BUTTON BECAUSE IT SUGGESTS THAT MAN IS NOT, AFTER ALL, THE PINNACLE OF ALL CREATION. This is a terrifying thought to people who think they understand the Infinite with their complex, designer-created Minds.

How evolution evolved

dave — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 21:36:42 GMT

The Simpson's said it best: Religion has no place in our schools just as facts have no place in religion.

How evolution evolved

Charles J. Slavis Jr. Millersburg, Ohio — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 23:25:12 GMT

When you consider the greatness and majesty of God compared to scientific knowledge, and religious knowledge, we have all gathered just a few grains of sand off of the beach. Keep Gathering! God may have used the big bang to start things moving. With movement came change (evolution), and the abitity to measure time. God is different to every person although we each use different religions to express our beliefs. Judaism evolved into Christianity and then Islam evolved from both. Moses, Christ and Mohamad each expressed their personal interactions with God in different ways. Religion is evolving. The original spark of life can be traced back to the big bang. Whether through lightning or chemicals which evolved on earth, God may have started it all with the big bang. Apparently God plays billiards. God used top spin on me. How did you get here?

How evolution evolved

Charles J. Slavis Jr. — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 23:47:10 GMT

Perhaps to get the right recipe for primordial soup, you need to duplicate the big bang exactly as God may have done it. Then let stand for 16 billion years.

How evolution evolved

Charles J. Slavis Jr. Millersburg, Ohio — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 23:50:21 GMT

My definition of God is what causes me to be here in this body at this time. Perhaps God is the Universe and we are already with God. Your guess is as good as mine.

How evolution evolved

Joseph Piatt, Florence, Oregon. — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 02:21:07 GMT

I'm perfectly willing to believe that Darwin's work may have allowed the Nazis and Stalin to oppress and kill...just like Christianity caused the Crusades, gave moral allowances for slavery, and justification for witch burnings.
A hammer can drive nails, but it can crack a skull. Anything can be dangerous in the hands of dangerous people.

How evolution evolved

David Fortune - Trinidad — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 03:12:32 GMT

The claim that there is a god is as much theory as the claim that life evolved. science is out to prove it's theory, the religous have no intention of trying to prove theirs.

How evolution evolved

AndyBoo — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 06:21:25 GMT

If Nazism and Stalin's brutality are the fault of Darwin then isn't the Spanish Inquisition and the Salem Witch Hunt the fault of Jesus?

How evolution evolved

Dan, Missoula MT — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:58:22 GMT

Perhaps some clarification on the definition of irreducible complexity would help.

When most creationists state that life is to complex to have evolved this is usually what they are referring to. I think Micheal Behe explained it best in his book Darwins black box when he talked about the mouse trap. It's a simple design made up of a platform, spring, and lever. If you take away any one part the machine no longer functions. One cannot take a platform and add a spring to get a more funtional mouse trap. you only have a platform with a spring that doesn't do anything. This is a very simplified version of the idea and in his book he lists a multitude of biochemical examples that are irreducibly complex, meaning that if you remove one part of the "machine" the entire process is nonfunctional. Now there is great debate among scientists out there whether or not irreducible complexety truely exists. Here is a site for Behes essays and responces to his critics. www.arn.org/authors/behe.html
I am not attempting to fully explain irreducible complexity here please read about it for yourselves, I am mearly pointing out that no one is "begging the question"

As to the responses that creationists only point to the bible for their explanations, please .(as someone posted before)see answers in genesis. This site shows many examples of active research being done by creationists. The institute for creation research is another example. While your at it check out no answers in genisis (Richard Dawkins web site)to here their critics. (please take note of the "tone" in which each site refers to the other)

Once again I would implore everyone don't just take someones word for it look at their research for yourself see what their critics have to say about it what have you got to lose. It's only your immortal soul.

How evolution evolved

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:28:46 GMT

Counter-Cultural wrote (1/10, 2313) {of Frank Glovers commenet (1/10, 1357)}, “This is a huge misunderstanding on the evolution/creation debate. Your examples are proven cases of selective breeding.”

I’m not sure Frank has any *huge* misunderstandings. I think the fact that it was selective breeding was the point. *Natural* selection based on environmental change is replaced by *breeder* selection based on capricious whim. In the natural selection process random mutations, over time, will build a bigger allele pool. That pool is reduced by die-off when there is an environmental crisis.

Hypothetical example: Times are great, abundant rain, sunshine and warmth, plant life is flourishing. Herbivores can eat non-stop and never diminish their food supply. As a result they breed prolifically, so carnivores can’t take two steps without tripping over an unnecessary meal. Random mutation causes a new allele that allows fat production, some of our carnivores store so much fat that they’re considered couch potatoes, are unattractive to the opposite sex and get winded too quickly to win a fight against a healthy carnivore from the slim and trim phonotype. In this age of abundance the slim and trim allele is grossly predominant. Then a volcano erupts half way around the world, altering the environment. The entire planet is enveloped in a layer of high altitude suspended ash. This seeds non productive cloud cover which cools the earth and induces drought. A sudden insufficiency in food supply causes a massive die-off of herbivores. This stresses our population of carnivores. No longer tripping over their next meal they must go for days between kills. The dominant allele does not allow for the efficient storage and retrieval of foods stores in fat, and also lacks an insulating layer in these cooler times. The dominant allelites now cannot compete with the couch potatoes, who live quite comfortably in the cooler weather and longer time between feeding. The volcano continues to erupt and these conditions prevail for 10 years. The slim and trims died out from starvation and exposure and there has been morphologic change in the species. This kind of change, repeated time and again in geographically isolated populations is how diverse speciation is often achieved.

We have simply replaced environmental pressures with breeders and geographic isolation with AKC regulations. Now, given a few million years, Chihuahuas and Poodles will develop into different species. I think for most phenotypic changes a die-off, or reduction in available genetic diversity, is a key aspect. This aspect is perfectly demonstrated by making French Poodles and Thoroughbreds. Selective breeding does nothing to induce random mutation, but we could replace that as well.

If I’m not mistaken, and I may be, phylogenic (?) speciation can take place side by side with the originating species in an unchanged environment. Although I would expect that in most cases the entire population would take on the new physiology through normal breeding if it amounted to a beneficial change.
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Earl Cox (1/11, 1352) said, “Alas, we are never going to have a rational, clear, directed, and focused debate on the issues of science and religion until the level of science education in our schools greatly improves.”

Too true, too true. The level of any education in our schools will not greatly improve until and unless the quality of teachers goes up. The quality of teachers will not realistically go up until and unless funding for resources and pay goes up to coax the most highly apt from private industry to teaching. That will require either more taxes or better allocation of existing taxes. As it is, we continue to reelect representatives because they waste vast amounts of money to bring a little bit of prosperity to our location. We stupidly see this as a good thing because we can point to a small improvement locally. For us to get our local porkfat we must pay for everybody elses. If we could just better educate the voting population so they could see the big picture and get rid of the representatives who vote for huge wastes in tax dollars across the country for the sake of their own hometown pork we could free up the tax dollars to improve education. So if we improved education we could afford to improve education.
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AndyBoo (1/13, 0121) Ouch! Yes, but ouch! (And don’t forget KKK, good, God fearing Christians that they are.)

How evolution evolved

Joe — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:01:06 GMT

If it wasn't for humans teeth evolving the way they did their would be no need for toothpicks. Their are reasons thing are made they way the are. You just don't make something and say it is perfect for environments that haven't existed for millions of years. Explain the dinosaours.

Things are complex because of the changes that have occured for billions of years. What is complex to you doesn't mean it didn't start out simple.

Those who prayed to be saved from the black plague died and those who genetically, socially, or environmentally could prevent dying from it survived and helped make you. (If you lived in a rat invested sewer and just prayed would you not get any diseases?)

How evolution evolved

Lisa Ryan, Bakersfield, CA — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 17:19:11 GMT

Very interesting debate going on here! Vance from Colorado Springs, you very well expressed much of my perspective on this whole thing. I think it would be a mistake for any one reading this to assume that there are only 2 opposite extremes on this issue.

I would like to add that I am a Christian who believes that the universe is on the order of aproximately 3.7 billion years old. In light of the fact that my belief system incorporates that God exhists outside of time, this 3.7 billion year time frame does not bother me. It's a non-issue. And the Theory of Natural Selection? Well, if that's the way God did it, that doesn't bother me either. In fact, I can see how He would choose to do it that way, since we as a species would need to have bodies that could adapt to various changes in our environment that would occur over the millenia and eons. Even just the prospect of some of us surviving, lets say, the Bubonic Plague of the Middle Ages. And we are not the only species that depends on this God-given species-DNA adaptability for survival. If anyone here does not believe that God could do it this way, then perhaps your perception of God is too small.

Aaron--indeed, do not limit His power! To assume that Cardinal Usser and John Lightfoot were right(they lived in the , oh, 1200 AD's, if I remember correctly. That's where all this business of '6000 year old universe' came from, NOT from that 'Old Bronze Age Text'(what a wise and beautiful old text!)-BTW, ancient Hebrews and Christians only believed that the Earth and Universe were very ancient--they did'nt try to put a specific age to it). Well, to assume that Cardinal Usser and John Lightfoot were correct is to limit God to THEIRS and YOUR understanding and perception of time and God.

Tilt, it appears that you assume that ALL who think that the Theory of Natural Selection is correct are going to hell. Just remember, "Judge not, lest you be judged." Flat Earthers also said that about Round Earthers until Christopher Columbus proved them wrong.

Drustan Light, it appears that your concept of what 'religion' is is very limited. That one grain of sand, that one beach could very well be the beach you are standing on. Tilt stands on one little beach. You stand on another little beach, but those two little seperate beaches are just a small part of a vast ocean with many beaches and grains of sand. In fact, thw whole total of humankind's knowledge is only a fraction of all there is to know. And God could indeed exhist outside the little bit of sand and few beaches you know of.

Well, this has gotten looong, so I'll post it now.

How evolution evolved

Dennis, Richmond VA — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 19:53:59 GMT

Of course the universe has an intelligent designer! The Flying Spaghetti Monster is one smart monster! He took great care to put all sorts of interesting bones all over the place, so that people could have tons of fun digging them up.

How evolution evolved

Dennis, Richmond VA — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 20:07:55 GMT

Oh darn... does that comment make me a Troll?

How evolution evolved

Frank Glover, Rochester, NY — Wed, 14 Jan 2009 01:49:39 GMT

"At this point in time I've looked at both sides and there is no way I could ever buy into this nonsense. All it really takes is some common sense. If you have the ability to look around at all the wonders of this universe and believe that it was created by random chance then you may just be a hopeless case."

And down here on its surface, the Earth doesn't look like a sphere, either (Yeah, I know there are still a few people who insist it's flat.) and the stars are all points of light, the same distance away.

Lisa, the Universe is not obliged to agree with human notions of 'common sense.' And seems to work quite well in ways that do not do so. (Don't believe me? Two words: Quantum Physics)

I once had a co-worker that said almost the same thing you did as 'proof' of a deity, that it was somehow self-evident that there must be a God. But as he couldn't tell me what a world *without* God would look like when I asked him, then how would I know that *this* isn't one?

Besides, while the devout won't do this and have stopped asking questions at this point, an honest, curious person following your viewpoint (and that of many others here) must then ask: "So...where, then, did the 'Intelligent Designer' come from?"

And such a person might also ask a question that one doesn't have to ask of purely physical and chemical forces; "WHY (and perhaps how) did this Intelligent Designer do this? (and design it in this particular way, as opposed to some other?)"

So now, science seems to hit a wall, with the need to figure out the origin and psychology of a presumably all-powerful being, that's inaccessible for study or questioning. Hmmm...

It's conceivable that somewhere down at the very basis of reality that this is where questions lead (as I said elsewhere, I'll at least *entertain* the idea that the very laws of physics are what they are for this reason), but 'God did it' should be the absolute last resort of an answer. Otherwise, it only encourages intellectual laziness and an unwillingness to ask further questions...

How evolution evolved

A1, Chicago, IL. — Wed, 14 Jan 2009 06:14:42 GMT

People are asking who created God. The answer is: God himself is not a creation. God is an eternal being having neither beginning of days or end of life.He is the origin of species. He is life.

How evolution evolved

Brandon McFadden, York, Pa — Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:24:31 GMT

"Still and will always be a theory. Everything we know has an intelligent designer."

The definition of a scientific theory is not "a guess". It's different from the every day layman's definition. Please look it up.

Furthermore, if everything has an intelligent designer, who designed your intelligent designer? Oh, he's the uncaused cause. Right. That's called special pleading. Unfortunately that doesn't fly.

How evolution evolved

Julie, Greenville, SC — Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:36:31 GMT

In answer to one persons challenge, Darwin's name for his theory: Theory of the Origin of Species. Also, people: it is a THEORY, science is based on theories, and they are discussed, tested and proven or disproven. Religion is based on FAITH, no room for dissent or discussion. Science and religion are not in the same category. Trying to label Creationism as a "scientific theory" that needs to be "explored" is laughable!

How evolution evolved

Lisa E. Ryan — Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:39:36 GMT

Hi everyone--just a clarification. Lisa from San Diego and Lisa Ryan in Bakersfield are two completely different people. While the two of us agree on some things, we disagree on others. Oh, BTW, Frank from Rochester in New York--I was about half way through reading Brian Greene's "Fabric of the Cosmos" then my mom got really sick and passed away, and I hav'nt had the time to pick it back up yet. I hope to be able to pick it back up soon.

How evolution evolved

Paul A Trouve, Montague, NJ — Thu, 15 Jan 2009 22:25:24 GMT

The problem is that evolution has been used to replace God as the answer to how all that we can observe in the universe come about. But evolution could well be part of the way God did his creation.

I believe in God and the Scripture but I don't think that the Scripture (Word of God) is to be taken literally at least in the OT, particularly in the Book of Genesis. Having said that, one must not as a believer be cavalier about the literal meaning. The Scripture is the Word and the Word is sacred. So if not to be taken literally in every case, the Word still has a meaning both religious and otherwise.

Why should we have no knowledge from Scripture on how the creative process unfolded? I feel the "days" of Scripture represent distinct creative events by God in an otherwise evolutionary scheme. Not evolution in the Darwinian sense of randomness but evolution as a slow creative force moving towards specific ends in the Creator's mind.

This is the type of evolution that St Augustine envisioned. I call it theistic evolution.

How evolution evolved

Frank Glover, Rochester, NY — Thu, 15 Jan 2009 22:42:51 GMT

"People are asking who created God. The answer is: God himself is not a creation. God is an eternal being having neither beginning of days or end of life.He is the origin of species. He is life."

Perhaps. The point is, how do (or can) you know that?

That's a matter of faith and/or philosopy. The inability to investigate it and falsify it if it is indeed not so, means it's not science.

The theory of evolution (like any other theory) can be investigated and modified if necessary, if data and facts that are inconsistent with it are found.

But the supporting data is so strong, that it would take extrordinary evidence to overthrow it completely.

(And even that does not automatically mean that Inteligent Design or divine creation must necessairily be the answer. If A is wrong, it doesn't always mean that B is right. Disproving A isn't enough. You would still need evidence that directly supports B, or risk ignoring yet other possibilites that are consistent with theory A being falsified. After all, as I asked before, *which* creation story do we accept? Assuming that a divine creator actually acted in accordance with *any* of them, and not in some other, unknown way?)

How evolution evolved

Sean — Thu, 15 Jan 2009 22:57:04 GMT

Food for thought: When disasters strike most of us will refrain from believing the first reports of events. Why? Because we realize that initial reports can be misleading at best and incorrect at worst. Science is akin to a reporter trying to bring us a more and more accurate picture of the world. The advice I give my children is: Embrace that there is no such thing as an absolute truth. Listen to latest reports, as these have a greater chance of describing reality the way it is.

We are a species stuped in ignorance, but at least we're trying to understand the world. Many religious people remind me of those who will only believe the initial reports of events and refuse later ones. This is unfortunate because later reports are usually far more accurate. I sucked up long time ago that my make-believe world of creation was just that; make-believe. I eventually understood that nature simply didn't care about where I stood on the issues. I realized that, at the tender age of five, my child had a deeper understanding of nature than the people who wrote these ancient books. And I know better than to let someone who is more ignorant about nature than the modern child tell me what nature is or how it works. Why would you?

To paraphrase the French astronomer Camille Flammarion: "Men have had the vanity to think creation was made for them, whilst in reality creation doesn't suspect their existence."

How evolution evolved

charles hedbring, saratoga springs, NY — Thu, 15 Jan 2009 23:09:54 GMT

Succintly summarized: "Is man God's only mistake, or is god only man's mistake" ~Nietzche

How evolution evolved

Gort — Fri, 16 Jan 2009 00:49:19 GMT

Religion has evolved over time but most religious people will only recognize the current form of it they have been indoctrinated with as the standard to which others are wrong. People have believed in a deity or mulitple deities that they petition for favor in hopes of improving their situation when they are faced with a condition that they are unable to cope with. Asking for assistance from your deity of choice will not change the outcome of your situation and recognizing the lack of assistance as part of a "larger" plan is really just your acceptance at the foolishness of asking for help to begin with.

I am curious why people of a religious inclination refer to their deity in the masculine form. If you had not been taught by an institution to refer to your deity as male why would you make an assumption to a male gender when it is recognized in nature that the female of a species is needed to create life. It would make more sense that your deity has a mate and that together life was created. I suspect the monotheistic form was established through manipulation of dogma to create a system of power and control through the male gender.

If all species are created and systematically removed from the planet then we should be concerned for our survival. The indication that species just appear and then are removed from the timeline indicates that a mass extinction and subsequent mass repopulation of new species on the planet is being conducted. If that is the case then the future hopefully intelligent species may well wonder what killed off the human race as they dig back into the fossil record looking for the link between them and us. If this is the biblical reference to the return of Jesus Christ then I suspect that it will not be a pleasant experience and the human species as we know it will be eliminated from the earth to prepare for the next generation of hominids and miscellaneous life forms.

If you wonder if evolution needs proof to be true consider that in less than 1,000 years nobody will be able to prove that you existed (unless you are a significant historical figure). You undoubtedly believe that you do but it is highly unlikely that anyone 1,000 years from now would be able to prove it. The scientific fact of your existence could not be proven but yet you exist, evolution may not be able to be proved today but that does not mean that it does not exist and is not true.

Evolution is not a religion just because people believe in it. I believe the sun is real but I don't worship the sun. If you have a problem with evolution being taught in your schools as an element of science then take your children to church and ensure they get an alternative to it. They will be able to make their own choice as an adult to what they believe. I don't know where you will take them to teach them tolerance for other views but hopefully they will acquire that along the way.

How evolution evolved

KittyBaby — Fri, 16 Jan 2009 01:27:13 GMT

I read these comments and weep for the stupidity of mankind. There is no excuse for wandering, ignorant, in the darkness; calling for a God that does not exsist. Grow up.

How evolution evolved

Yuan Lee — Fri, 16 Jan 2009 01:31:52 GMT

There is no conflict between the theory evolution and God's ways. This is his/her way of of getting thing done in the unverse. God does not observethe moral pricipals of us humans after we took ourselves out of the evolutionary mechanisim (more or less). The all mighty is neither good or bad. We are to understand God through science and not to define him/her as the suprime goodness of the universe. His/Her name is Father Universe and Mother Nature.

How evolution evolved

Calvin D., Washington DC — Fri, 16 Jan 2009 02:59:31 GMT

"Let there be light"... from nothingness (nonexistence)? That is quite some power. Everything under the sun (and within the universe) happened and is continuing to happen. Put a tag on the occurences if you want and label them as you will. I am just happy to be living in this time of great thinkers who use their eyes and minds to contemplate our existence without creating some unseen being to explain us and all that is around us. By the way, who are God's parents and what are their names?

How evolution evolved

Matt Hart, Texas — Fri, 16 Jan 2009 17:33:21 GMT

I'm starting to think I might be one of the few who thinks this way.

Why can't both theories co-exist? Science has yet to truly prove or disprove the existence of deity. And if I’ve read it correctly, the bible it’s self says nothing of how life, the sky, the stars or how anything came to be other than it was told to do so and obeyed. How this stuff went about doing that I don’t know. The closest we have to something being made from something is when it talks about how man was made IE from the dust of the earth and from God’s breath. And again it still does not say word for word step by step how that happened.
We could say it was from chaos that the universe and everything in it formed but over all there seems to be some fundamental patterns repeated over and over again in varying sizes. True chaos does not run in order of patterns. For example… stars. There are billions of them made from varying chemicals that burn, and we’re now finding that planets also follow the same pattern and tend to lump together instead of rocks and dust just running at random smashing each other apart and flying in opposite directions as is the norm with truly random chaotic messes.
I don’t know what you believe in, and it is not for me to say. But I think there is a fundamental order to all things and how that order came to be is beyond my own grasp.

How evolution evolved

Walter, San Jose, Ca — Fri, 16 Jan 2009 20:44:03 GMT

We believe, think, feel Why? The underlying conflict between science and religion is rooted in how deeply held belief systems are formed. No one asks themselves why do I believe this? A hypnotic modality is any process that forms, creates, or modifies subconscious belief systems. Hypnotic modalities are used in advertising, politics, any arena designed to persuade or alter someone’s beliefs. Religion is the oldest most powerful hypnotic modality on earth. Countless wars have been fought in vain trying to suppress it. The subconscious mind is not logical, it only responds based on its programming. All the logic and reasoning in the world will never alter the behavior of a religious fanatic once the beliefs are integrated into their subconscious self image. Refer to the books by Dr John Kappas for more information. Morality itself is just a learned subconscious inhibitory process. Science can even explain why religious people will defend their beliefs at any cost. The primitive human subconscious functions are thousands is years old. Even our minds have evolved.

How evolution evolved

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:38:44 GMT

Gort,
Just because God can't be proven today doesn't mean that he isn't real or doesn't exist. If I follow your /logic/.

And people call evolution a religion because it is not proven (as far as man goes, and that's where I've seen the religion aspect applied) and can only be believed in by faith.

How evolution evolved

Laurence Topliffe, Fairfield, Iowa — Sun, 18 Jan 2009 15:20:47 GMT

To me, there is no conflict between evolution and God because there is no problem with God creating a universe which evolved along with everything in it. So far, I have never read any article that defines God adequately or correctly. Until that is done, our thoughts will be based on ignorance. Is is possible to define God correctly? Yes and I'm writing a book about it. It's not hard to understand and the proof of who or what God is is available to anyone and results in an irrefutable conclusion.

How evolution evolved

Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Mon, 19 Jan 2009 14:35:33 GMT

Calvin D, DC : "By the way, who are God's parents and what are their names?"

Katie and Les.

How evolution evolved

Dov Henis, Hod-HaSharon, Israel — Mon, 19 Jan 2009 17:20:50 GMT

Darwin extended beyond his own hoerizon

Darwin 200

Rethought Unified Field Theory And Evolution

A. SN Special : Darwin turns 200
http://www.sciencenews.org/view/feature/id/39754/title/SN_Special__Darwin_turns_200
This special web edition of Science News includes expanded versions of articles from the magazine's print edition plus two additional features, all commemorating the 200th anniversary of the birth of Charles Darwin.

B. 22nd Century Conception Of Unified Field Theory And Evolution

The following brief essays present the 22nd century comprehension of evolution. They preserve Darwin's name in reference to Life Evolution in respect and appreciation of Darwin's promotion of the concept of evolution in life.

Life's Manifest
http://www.the-scientist.com/community/posts/list/112.page#578">http://www.the-scientist.com/community/posts/list/112.page#578

Culture, A Ubiquitous Biological Entity
http://www.the-scientist.com/community/posts/list/98.page

Life And Darwinian Evolution, 21st Century Comprehension
http://www.the-scientist.com/community/posts/list/112.page

Rethink Unified Field Theory And Evolution
http://www.the-scientist.com/community/posts/list/60/122.page#982

Dov Henis

(Comments From The 22nd Century)
http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-P81pQcU1dLBbHgtjQjxG_Q--?cq=1

How evolution evolved

Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Mon, 19 Jan 2009 22:14:51 GMT

Lisa Ryan, Bakersfield: "I am a Christian who believes that the universe is on the order of aproximately 3.7 billion years old. "

And just what act of genius led to this personal conclusion of yours?

The world earth science community agrees on 4.6 billion years.

Evolution is the only system of thought that adaquately explains mutations and disease in living things..including humans. What explanation does the God crew have on this?

[ALAN ADDS: Thomas, I hate to be picky, but 4.6 billion years would be the estimated age of Earth. The estimated age of the universe is about 13.7 billion years. Maybe Lisa just mistakenly omitted the "1." ]

How evolution evolved

Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 04:04:50 GMT

Ah yes, I meant the age of the earth. I missed the universe thing. So, that puts Lisa Ryan in an even bigger quandry. Thanks.

How evolution evolved

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:34:33 GMT

Thomas Ashby wrote (1/19, 1714), "Evolution is the only system of thought that adaquately explains mutations and disease in living things..including humans. What explanation does the God crew have on this?"
My part of the God crew holds that evolution explains that. Evolution is the way life changes, not the way it was created. The God crew has a theory on how life was created, including humans. What explanation do you have?

How evolution evolved

Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 17:18:07 GMT

Tim Rommes: " The God crew has a theory on how life was created, including humans."

Ok, what is it? ...oh right "God spoke"

How evolution evolved

Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 19:18:45 GMT

Tim Rommes: "What explanation do you have?"

"I" don't have an explanation and "you" shouldn't be asking ME for one. However, if you look at the top graphic and read some links, you will see what camp I belong to. If you want to say that God was mixing up his brew in vast concentrations of the "stuff of life"
and busy organizing primitive cellular arrangments and assembling life like santa clauses elfs assemble toys all year, that's your business.

How evolution evolved

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 02:35:24 GMT

Elves, but that's nit picky.

How evolution evolved

Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:39:03 GMT

Tim Rommes: "Elves, but that's nit picky." So why did you bother writing that and avoid responding to the rest of the post?

[ALAN ADDS: Thomas and Tim, you're both valued Cosmic Log correspondents, so I hope you won't turn this into a back-and-forth argument. Please don't stray too far into the "attacking the comments of others" territory. ;-)]

How evolution evolved

Lisa E. Ryan — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 21:39:30 GMT

Thomas Ashby- and Allen Adds--OOPS--I indeed left the '1' out!! I meant to say 13.7 billion years for the age of the universe--I appologise for the type-o, and thank you for bringing it to my attention so that I could clarify. Anyway, with the corrections that the Hubble telescope brought to the scientific estimated age of the universe, the background radiation left over from the Big Bang, etc, I think that science today is pretty close to the universes accurate age with the 13.7 billion figure that I've read about and watched on the Universe DVD collection I have.

How evolution evolved

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Thu, 22 Jan 2009 00:55:23 GMT

I thought the Santa Clause remark was a jab and I prefer to be insulted in a grammatically correct manner. Pet peeve. Perhaps that was not the spirit with which you intended the remark.
I wasn't avoiding, I read some links then emailed out for further information. Just trying to figure out which camp you're in as you can't seem to articulate that information. I am getting used to that with you.
Response: As near as I am able to tell, you are in the camp that postulates the "RNA World." An entirely plausible, even probable scenario. The current state of research in this field yeilds self replicating RNA "colonies" that will survive indefinitely in a nutrient rich substrate. Over the course of generations they show some genetic drift consistent with theory. It shows that once you have self replicating RNA it can be very robust. What I found particularly interesting is that the RNA being used was synthesized. Built to a preditermined specification using techniques that require a specific set of circumstances for an initial step, then cleaning that environment and setting up conditions for the next step. Completely unlike anything that would naturally occur. As far as the current research shows RNA can occur as long as there is an intelligent designer making the process happen. This doesn't completely rule out the possibility of life erupting out of pure dumb luck. There is always the arguement that a room full of chimpanzees randomly hitting keys on a keyboard will eventually spit out a best selling novel. I'm not counting on even a good dirty limerick.
Science is just discovering the ways God does what he does.

How evolution evolved

Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Thu, 22 Jan 2009 19:59:27 GMT

Tim Rommes: The chimpanzees don't have to "spit out a best selling novel" A word or 2 will do nicely thankyou. A first step just like "in the beginning".

Multi-cellular life did erupt in the "biologic big bang" neatly put in the fossil record 600 million years ago. There is no reason to think that once the primitive and early pre-RNA world developed, there was an eruption of life. Life in an unrecognizable form. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20249616/

There are naturally occuring catalysts and/or substrates such as the clay minerals upon which chemistry does happen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clay_minerals
Not only is life a big question but the creation and evolution of enzymes or enzyme-like molecules to allow chemistry is equally amazing.

The fact remains, there is no magic. There is only the appearance of magic. The earth, the planets and all life as we know it are built of the basic elements born of dead stars. They ask "What is life". The earth itself and it's processes could be construed as a living entity. But that's too much like "Gaia" I guess.

How evolution evolved

Charlie, Ashburn VA — Fri, 23 Jan 2009 01:34:59 GMT

This debate (theology versus science) is as old as philosophy itself. In ancient Athens Anaxagoras was driven into exile by angry pagan zealots. Anaxagoras had concluded that eclipses were caused by the moon passing in front of the sun, casting a shadow on earth, and that the moon was a rock illuminated by reflected light from the sun. The Authorities believed that the moon was the Goddess Selene and her pegasi driven chariot. The moral majority won by a landslide and Anaximander was sent packing. It is important to note that Pericles remained his friend and defended his reputation. Western civilization took a 1000 year slide into hell immediately after 529 AD when Justinian (devout Christian) closed the last acadamy in Athens and sent the scholars packing to Haran in Edessa. It was there that the first Islamic University arose.

Religion and science are once again at each other, but science seems to have a better foothold.

How evolution evolved

Peter McArdle Lake Havasu City, Az — Fri, 23 Jan 2009 18:25:05 GMT

The word of God says that "The truth is foolishness to the perishing..." It also says that it is God's will that none should perish... I really can't expect anyone who does not know God to be able to grasp the concept of creation. However, in the interest of scientific research, I suggest that you do get to know God, at which point you will have the capacity (in you choose) to understand creation, and then you can make an informed decision about what you choose to believe.

How evolution evolved

SCIENCE CAN BE PROVED — Fri, 23 Jan 2009 20:25:20 GMT

Atomic theory made the H-bomb possible, even though nobody had ever 'seen' an atom.

Evolution theory, of course, can't be proved by 'seeing' the proof either. Just like faith in God.

When the God people build a bomb (or anything else that actually can be proven to work), I'll start listening to them compare faith in science with faith in boogeymen.

People put faith in God the same way they put faith in astrology: because they WANT to believe it, not because it can be empirically proved. Unlike the bomb. No question that it worked, unless you want to say that God made it work just to fool the scientists...the same way some people attempt to deny the compelling evidence of the fossil record.

How evolution evolved

EVERYTHING IS SACRED — Fri, 23 Jan 2009 21:11:45 GMT

Man is a superorganism, the result of several forms of life organizing themselves for survival (mitochondrial DNA is separate from "our" own). Our notion of a Creator is the manifestation of our infatuation with our own complexity.

God, in other words, was created by narcissism.

Now, could someone explain how they can be so certain that only Man contemplates his own existence and mortality? Because other species don't build churches or print bibles, maybe? You can't prove a negative, at least not empirically.

What is intelligence, apart from the human context? Is it only evidenced by building things? Are we even capable of recognizing intelligence outside of our own context?

Is it possible that some other species long ago ignored the quest for tools and technology, and achieved enlightenment? And that they are still around, laughing at us and crapping on our cars?

How evolution evolved

Gordon Tatro — Sat, 24 Jan 2009 09:28:42 GMT

Who has seeded the Jan 9th post…pond ooze?

Seems like every minute there is another posts and there are tons of them for Jan 9th. Is this a set-up? I did not read every word here (on this web) so maybe there is a legitimate explanation/reason? SoOOoo…what is it?!? Or are we just going to ‘believe’ that luck and random meandering molecules bumped the letters into a transfer of knowledge (suspicious knowledge BTW)? Ooooh, I know! Silly me…were…Darwin’s million monkeys banging away again on those million typewriters for the past million years…? Aaaah, where did they get all the bananas to feed these monkeys for those million years?

Am I suppose to trust the happenings of this web page that they just magically popped onto this page and because the letters for Jan 9th are here than that proves that they are random and intelligent? That’s as difficult to handle as the: tornado-in-the-junk-yard bringing forth…ya mumma!

OKaaa I’m waiting for the magical meandering ‘miracle’ to explain this…and I suppose that if I wait long enough either someone intelligent is going to tell me or that it just… evolved?

Here is the bottom line:

This entire planet is covered with life all of which has basic chemical properties and substances: carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, potassium, calcium etc. All of these periodic table elements are common throughout the known universe (there are no other chemicals out there other than those found on the periodic table!). All of these chemicals are NON-LIVING…and then…they became living!! Biologists must ‘work’ through (and explain) how that which was non-living became that which is human (living). Regardless of what we learn prior to life; and no matter what we learn once life began….We would only find significant reason for our being here (or just, being) when we determine how (and why!): that which was not living became living…and not really just living but thinking sentient beings (we are really not interested in bugs…) we need to know WHY we are here?!

We are so arrogant spewing testosterone around ‘marking’ our territory with our supposed intelligence that we are only digging a deeper hole and wondering why there is nothing in the hole (duhh, exactly…that’s why its called it a hole)…but at least we could have brought a ladder with us! All the scientists all the theologians and all the philosophers need to come together and talk about this without the PRIDE and arrogance and just seek Truth and allow God to move as it pleases Him best. He is not afraid of the Truth…we are! Adjust the Attitude before you look into the microscope!

Gordon

How evolution evolved

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Sat, 24 Jan 2009 17:08:40 GMT

Thomas Ashby (1/22, 1459) wrote:
“The chimpanzees don't have to "spit out a best selling novel" A word or 2 will do nicely thankyou.”
A word or two would be completely unremarkable. This would happen frequently. An assembly of words that had meaning and entertainment value is the long odds example.

“Multi-cellular life did erupt in the "biologic big bang" neatly put in the fossil record 600 million years ago.”
Just as the Bible records it.

“There is no reason to think that once the primitive and early pre-RNA world developed, there was an eruption of life. Life in an unrecognizable form.”
I’m not sure what the thought is here. There is no reason to think that(. [O]nce the primitive … Was there supposed to be a break there?

Assuming so. I assume the fossil record isn’t even nearly complete. Not only during the time that we have fossils for but also earlier. Particularly for any precellular life. Or we may have fossils of precellular life and not recognise them. I wouldn’t venture that the earliest record of life we see is a record of the earliest life.

“There are naturally occurring catalysts and/or substrates such as the clay minerals upon which chemistry does happen.”
There are. And from that we can get a step of chemistry done but it doesn’t necessarily provide the conditions for the next step. To get the chemistry done in the lab requires setting up conditions that wouldn’t seem to follow one another outside the lab. Of course, there is the outside possibility that conditions were bizarrely different at different altitudes and the first reaction took place high then pieces got washed down into an acid bath, foamed over and slid into a caustic puddle, etc. I’d really want to read the model for that though.

“Not only is life a big question but the creation and evolution of enzymes or enzyme-like molecules to allow chemistry is equally amazing.”
As far as creation goes we’re looking at the chemical creation of the controlling parts of a cell and then also the random, unrelated formation of a membrane (as in this article). Above the self replicating DNA multiply within the membrane but don’t produce the membrane. It’s a totally unrelated process. Perhaps it’s possible that some DNA in a rich environment produced a protein or a fat that would build up around them and form a permeable membrane. But even then this is a question of how, not who or why.

And yes, too “Gaiaish.” But I know what you mean. If you look at us we are host to all kinds of “bugs.” Each of us an entire ecosystem plus all our weird secretions and systems. The Earth host all these life forms plus the core system, volcanism, tectonic and weather systems, ocean currents, etc. Which would make us a germ making her sicker all the time.

How evolution evolved

Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Sat, 24 Jan 2009 20:44:12 GMT

Tim Rommes : "Multi-cellular life did erupt in the "biologic big bang" neatly put in the fossil record 600 million years ago.”
Just as the Bible records it. "

Ya, when "God spoke"..right?

To anyone reading, the latest edition of National Geographic celebrates Darwins 150th publication anniversary and 200th birthday (Feb. 12) with a superb account of his work.

How evolution evolved

Dov Henis, Hod-HaSharon, Israel — Sun, 25 Jan 2009 17:04:54 GMT

EVOLUTION Beyond Darwin 200

I.
At Darwin 200
Darwin Extended Beyond His Own Horizon
Rethought Unified Field Theory And Evolution

A. SN Special : Darwin turns 200
http://www.sciencenews.org/view/feature/id/39754/title/SN_Special__Darwin_turns_200
This special web edition of Science News includes expanded versions of articles from the magazine's print edition plus two additional features, all commemorating the 200th anniversary of the birth of Charles Darwin.

B. 22nd Century Conception Of Unified Field Theory And Evolution

The following brief essays present the 22nd century comprehension of evolution. They preserve Darwin's name in reference to Life Evolution in respect and appreciation of Darwin's promotion of the concept of evolution in life.

Life's Manifest
http://www.the-scientist.com/community/posts/list/112.page#578">http://www.the-scientist.com/community/posts/list/112.page#578

Culture, A Ubiquitous Biological Entity
http://www.the-scientist.com/community/posts/list/98.page

Life And Darwinian Evolution, 21st Century Comprehension
http://www.the-scientist.com/community/posts/list/112.page

Rethink Unified Field Theory And Evolution
http://www.the-scientist.com/community/posts/list/60/122.page#982

II.
Evolution beyond Darwin 200

Per "Design And Randomness In Cosmic And Life Evolution"
http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-P81pQcU1dLBbHgtjQjxG_Q--?cq=1&p=404">http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-P81pQcU1dLBbHgtjQjxG_Q--?cq=1&p=404

Singularity and D-Infinity (max expansion, energy dilution) are the cosmic end states. Their in-between is a metastable state. This corresponds to commonsense observation: the denser the compacting goal of material the more energy is required, and vice versa the more thorough the disintegration of material the higher the amount of energy released. It seems that the cosmic universal process is E=Total[m(1+D)] , where D is the Distance from Big Bang point and the sum is of all spatial values of D from D=0 to D=selected value.

Presently the cosmos expands on the right side of the equation. However, within its accelerating overall energy dilution there are local phenomena of formation of temporarily constrained energy pockets that evolve backwords towards impansion. The two most obvious examples of such backword energy constraints are black holes and life, two distant relatives within a probably big family of various forms of cosmic 'backlash energy constraints'.

Suggesting,

Dov Henis

(Comments From The 22nd Century)
http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-P81pQcU1dLBbHgtjQjxG_Q--?cq=1

How evolution evolved

Malcom — Tue, 03 Feb 2009 01:56:30 GMT

The problem is that some people decided to call it "evolution" which contains a sense of improvement and not adaptation which is the most correct term. Adaptation is sth proven but the evolution theory (which has no connection with adaptation) will never be proven (or perhaps is already proven to be wrong).
The human kind (and not only) seems to be de-revolutionizing over time. So I wonder how this wonderful mechanism so called "evolution" (!) has screwed things up so badly...

And an answer to a question I found here:

"Who created God?"
Well, excuse me but when you say "I create" you mean that you do sth in a time period or instantaneously inside a time line. And if you had ever tried to read and understand the Bible you would know that God created time (you know... God, the beginning and the end, the One that existed forever & before the start of time, the One who made this world but He is not FROM this world, etc, etc ...?). So, God was not created. God simply existed. You simply don't get it because you are used to the illusion of time.

How evolution evolved

Anthony Arnold, Famingville, New York — Fri, 06 Feb 2009 20:46:01 GMT

While the religious ones among us might submit that biology and its beauty is all part of some intelligent design, I submit that they are mistaken.

Biology is imperfect. Life is imperfect. Life is always changing and ever-evolving. This process is what has kept us alive.

If there were some supreme intelligence out there, like a god, why, then, didn't he create the perfect beings in his perfection.

The very act of creating imperfection must be considered imperfect, and thusly could not be accomplished by an perfect being. God is perfect, and yet must be imperfect. Therefore, God cannot exist.

Face it, religion is slowly losing ground to the Sciences. The facts are slowly eroding the beliefs. It's all but over for the religious folks who insist on hanging on to ludicrous ideas and notions of a Self-Created Creator.

How evolution evolved

David Hood, Daytona Beach, Fl. — Fri, 13 Feb 2009 23:08:14 GMT

I believe that there is a power or force that we will most likely never fully explain in our lifetime, and that power or force put everything into motion,( the big bang?)for evolution to occur. If you wish to call that power, GOD, ALLAH, JEHOVAH, YAHWEH, ELOHIM, MOTHER NATURE, THE FORCE, ( as in, may the force be with you), or the thousands of other names that man has used to refer to the diety,is ok with me.If believing helps you get up each morning and conduct yourself in a positive manner towards your fellow man, then I am all for it. However, don't condemn those of us who can be just as positive and carring without the need for an unseen God, or the religous dogma that goes along with it. Many people of faith would have us believe that without their faith we could not be good people which makes my wonder would they be criminals if they did not have their faith?

How evolution evolved

Dov Henis Hod-HaSharon, Israel — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 07:53:08 GMT

I humbly suggest:

Darwin Extended Beyond His Own Horizon,
and
Rethought Unified Field Theory And Evolution

in

"EVOLUTION Beyond Darwin 200"
at
http://www.the-scientist.com/community/posts/list/100/122.page#1407

Dov Henis Feb. 16, 2009 (sciencenews.org)

How evolution evolved

Bill, Fairview, PA — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 15:34:18 GMT

Darwin Rocks the theory of evolution.

How evolution evolved

Jess — Thu, 19 Feb 2009 00:34:17 GMT

The crux of the debate is that the religious view sees humans as a "chosen" life form above animals and science see humans as just another type of animal.
That is perfectly put. And evolution shows that we are just another type of animal with the thought process to debate this issue.

How evolution evolved

Tatil — Sun, 31 May 2009 21:23:43 GMT

How evolution evolved

Dov Henis, Hod-HaSharon, Israel — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:48:03 GMT

Life's Is A Ubiquitous Evolution Mode

The mode of a gene's response to organism-culture's feedback signal, i.e. "replicate without change" or "replicate with change" in case of proven augmented energy constrainment by the offspring, is the mode of Life's normal evolution, which is the mode of evolution universally.

Genes' Expression Modification
http://www.the-scientist.com/community/posts/list/200/122.page#3649

Again, the scope of of genes lifehood is not just the lifehood of genes.

Genes, and Life in general, are but one of the forms of mass, of constrained energy formats. The lifehood of genes is the foundation of the subject of evolutionary biology, which is a major component of the subject of life, which is a minute component of the subject of evolution of the universe, which is the subject for which humanity seeks a unified field theory.

Since the big-bang resolution of E/m superposition ALL the energy of the universe is destined for the galactic clusters expansion plus laying down of the gravity natrix for the eventual cosmic impansion, and ALL the mass is destined to revert to energy for these ends. The mass-to-energy reversion is resisted by the mass, this resistance being the archtype of selection for survival by all materials, including life. This resistance is due, exciting to us, to the fact that - as we know from everyday experience - formation of mass requires investment of energy, that dissipates when the mass disintegrates. And as we also know from everyday experience all energy forms other than gravity end up eventually as gravity energy. This is expected since ALL the contents of the universe are manifestations of the gravity energy freed at Inflation.

And again, a unified field theory is sought since unlike the evergrowing list of specific science/technology divisions drawn by the "scientists" trade-unions like the AAAS, the universe and Earth evolve as an integrated intertwined interrelated tangled whole and not as a collection of individual divisions.

Dov Henis
(Comments From The 22nd Century)
Updated Life's Manifest May 2009
http://www.the-scientist.com/community/posts/list/140/122.page#2321
Implications Of E=Total[m(1 + D)]
http://www.the-scientist.com/community/posts/list/180/122.page#3108