Puzzling over pre-humans

jean shrimpton — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 14:41:30 GMT

cheek bones to die for...

Puzzling over pre-humans

Michael tigges — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 15:02:32 GMT

lucy is of the ape kind, not a proto-human.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Joe, Macomb, MI — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 15:44:36 GMT

Oh boy! Countdown to "If we came from monkeys, how come there's still monkeys?" in 3.....2.....1....

Puzzling over pre-humans

V. VanCamp, Livonia, MI — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 15:46:24 GMT

I have often wondered just why bi pedalism is so associated with "like humans." Just a thought. Could there be more likely criteria in the evolutionary chain then bi pedalism? Maybe emphasis should change. It is possible that there were a dead end ape that walked up right having nothing to do with evolving into hominids along the chain.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Hunter, Jacksonville Fl — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 15:47:22 GMT

And to think there are still people alive today that will try and tell you the entire planet is 6000 years old! This is amazing stuff and countless people dismiss this as nothing more than wishful thinking and psuedo-science. We need to eradicate this ancient way of blind faith thinking and bring the ahrsh reality to the world.

Puzzling over pre-humans

OneVoice, Frederick MD — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 16:29:32 GMT

Facinating. The first family members could have been wiped out by a competing troup. This is also a not so uncommon event among modern primates - and even some modern humans.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Joe Trevis — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 17:06:18 GMT

I would like to hear Palin's take on this story.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 17:10:21 GMT

The creationist crowd is going to have fun with this one.

I am wondering about the population numbers for such creatures. I get the idea that there just wasn't that many of the "first family". But that makes little sense considering the overwhelming numbers of predators and other factors lending to mortality. It's a wonder they persisted at all leading to...us!

Puzzling over pre-humans

Forest Crump, Parkton NC — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 17:24:19 GMT

This is not against evolution but rather a different view. The reason the so-called, “missing link” can’t be found is that it does not exist. Extinction is a major part of Darwin’s evolution and from what I have read interested him the most. The remains are dead end paths taken by these animals, we do not have a missing link because we are a success so far, we are distinct and separate there is no link to be missing.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Sal, Sac., Ca. — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 17:29:34 GMT

Genetic grim fairy tale similar to the frog becoming a prince.
Artists can sculpt that story too.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Terry, Florida — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 17:33:55 GMT

How long before the comments appear saying that we didn't evolve?

Puzzling over pre-humans

Deborah Elliott, Inkster, Michigan — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 17:34:49 GMT

I must ask if there is one discrepancy in this story. I took my children to Cleveland about 11 years ago to view Lucy's remains on display at a university there. Were these just re-creations? I know I researched and took them to Cleveland specifically for that purpose (on our way to Niagara Falls!).

[ALAN ADDS: You are correct that Lucy's remains were in Cleveland, but not during the time frame you suggest, and all the info I've seen is that they did not go on public display. My guess is that you saw a fantastic reproduction of the skeleton, but perhaps readers from Cleveland will remember that more vividly. Here's a story from The Plain Dealer that addresses the subject:]

http://www.cleveland.com/sundaymag/
plaindealer/index.ssf?/sundaymag/more/fossil02.html

Puzzling over pre-humans

Tim Layman, Medina , Ohio. — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 17:48:45 GMT

Excellent story. I have been a fan of Lucy for many years. I would love to see the exhibit.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Sheree Fuchs, Waupun, WI. — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 17:51:49 GMT

Say what you will, and I'm sure some will get nasty about this, but I believe Gods word. It tells us how the world began, how we came into being, and how it's all going to end (Look around you, the end isn't all that far away) I know there is a God because I've seen Him and felt Him at work in my life for 40 years now, and I stand on His word only, not those of men. He has been and always will be my best friend, no one can take that from me, no matter how many "discoveries" others come across. I have no doubts where I came from, no doubts where I am headed, and no doubts that one day every single person on the face of this earth will one day know the TRUTH also.(Hopefully, sooner than later) Now...call me what you want, but I know that I know that I know my Redeemer lives, and Jesus Christ will have the final word. I hope everyone is listening! Have a great day!

Puzzling over pre-humans

Jane Doe — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 17:54:38 GMT

Another resource is THE BIBLE-and yes, I am a "creationist" and proud of it!!!!

Puzzling over pre-humans

Christian, Florida — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 17:57:23 GMT

i like the artist rendering. pretty crazy he/she did that with just maybe 2/3 of a skeleton. masterful! haha. i also like how the scientist assumes they were murdered in some sort of ancient conspiracy. how the hell would they know that? were they there? they also suggest a FLOOD...but quickly dismiss it. hmmmm. also...please do more research when comparing creation and evolution. there is more to the creation story than most christians and atheists know. feel free to ask questions.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Tom, NY — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:02:12 GMT

Wow. One fossil for this protohuman.. Funny how when a human is deformed in some way, it's just a genetic mistake, but when a bones from "ONE" primate doesn't fit the mold then it's the missing link for evloution. Give me a break!!..

Puzzling over pre-humans

Thor, Springfield — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:02:45 GMT

Has anyone ever seen a species produce anything outside it's species? No.

Puzzling over pre-humans

J. Acker — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:03:12 GMT

Lucy is not a human ancestor. Until it can be proved that the human race came from apes, etc.., it should not be stated as a fact. It has been proven that the DNA from apes, monkeys, etc. cannot be matched to the human DNA. It is called the missing link. The missing link does not exist.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Amanda Adams Watertown Wisconsin — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:04:57 GMT

How come people are always searching for a way to confirm what they say is "right"? Are they so full of questions? If they are so certain that what they are saying is the truth, then they wouldn't have to keep on questioning and searching to find out if what they think is true or not. I have an answer to their questions: The Bible!

Puzzling over pre-humans

m g indiana — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:08:53 GMT

Where is God in all of this?

Puzzling over pre-humans

E.J. Rothermund, Washington, PA — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:09:50 GMT

There may or may not be a "missing link" out there but, evolution is alive and well. Consider that "creationist museum" in Kentucky where they would have you believe that "The Flintstones" is a documentary.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Isaac, Missouri — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:11:40 GMT

We didnt evolve...

Puzzling over pre-humans

Jason Cooper, Eglin, Florida — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:14:03 GMT

The problem with "Lucy" is that the skeleton was not found all together. The bones are a collection found over hundreds of miles placed together and said to be from the same "person".

Puzzling over pre-humans

Cliff, Ft. Lauderdale, Florida — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:14:04 GMT

Puzzling over pre-humans

Sgt. Pepper — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:16:23 GMT

We need to acknowledge that we are all in the same family of life. Lucy is our grandma, Koko is our cousin, Willy is our friend in the neighborhood, Dr. Doolittle was our messiah and we all need to love each other. Stop eating your relatives and start treating them like friends. Christmas cannot be carnage anymore. Come on people every body get together start to love one another right now!

Puzzling over pre-humans

Frank John Snelling, SW London, England — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:16:47 GMT

One book I read a few years ago, was about how early humans, etc probably lived along the coastlines and so learnt to swim before walking. So yet another factor in skeletal and muscular development?

Puzzling over pre-humans

Jane, Flemington, NJ — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:21:47 GMT

Why haven't the apes of today evolved? Will they? I just don't get it... I can't believe in this theory.

Puzzling over pre-humans

aRTHUR fLOURNOY pENNSAUKEN,nj — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:21:53 GMT

IT IS UTTERLY FASCINATING WHAT SCIENTIST CAN DO WHEN THEY FIND A FEW OLD BONES. dETERMINED THE APPEARANCE, THE SEX,AGE AND POSSIBLE CAUSE OF DEATH OF THE DECEASED .

Puzzling over pre-humans

dallas tx — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:23:58 GMT

cue the "satan planted the bones to deceive you" nonsense in 5...

"I was told that when i asked about the dinosaurs in bible school many many years ago."

Puzzling over pre-humans

Jerry M. Weikle — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:25:12 GMT

What a beautiful woman she was, G-G-G-G-Great Grandma! I see that I have her smile too!

Course, I see that others have her grimace, eyes, ears, don't see many noses like that these days--most people have those cutisy "button nose".

Glad that I don't have that fur coat, a naked ape that I am, can you imagine the ticks, lice, and other varmits---but cousin Pan sure does have that fur coat, as my dear Jane has shown.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Cee G — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:32:42 GMT

Lucy's remains were once in Cleveland, as that is where Johanson worked at the time, but they have been back in Ethiopia for (guessing here) 20 years or so.

Also - merely an observation here - a number of these comments are "baiting" for the Bible thumpers ("Countdown to "If we came from monkeys..."; "The creationist crowd is going to have fun with this one..."; "How long before the comments appear saying that we didn't evolve?", etc, etc).
I realize that these sort of stories bring them out of the woodwork to do their rants, but these comments here are no different than the comments they make. Do not use science as a political wedge like they use religion - it only weakens the validity of truth.

Puzzling over pre-humans

JB, Highland Lakes, NJ — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:32:45 GMT

I am a Christian and I know that the earth has been evolving for billions of years. Most Christians also know this and somehow the media makes it seem otherwise. Relax you fundamentalists! You people make the Bible into a fairy tale. It's actually full of symbolism which is a good thing.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Cee G — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:34:04 GMT

Never mind.

Apparently too late.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Jeff, San Diego — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:38:01 GMT

Cliff, Jane, et. al,
Just because you do not understand evolution does not mean it is false. Humans and animals ARE evolving right now. It is just that large, quick changes are rare. Smaller changes are more common and go unnoticed in the course of an average lifetime.
Why does it bother you all so much to think that you could have a non-human ancestor? Hitting too close to home?
And as far as God goes, who says this is not his method of creating? Evolution and religion are not mutually exclusive.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Fred Dickey, Crossville TN — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:39:32 GMT

Actually, Carbon dating is highly in-accurate after so many thousands of years. Too many variables are assumed to be constants by "scientists" with a biased philosophy coupled with a biased bank account trying to squeeze as much as they can from government grants by loading congress and society up with so many assumptions.

Gone are the days of pure science where the Scientific Method was followed with extreme prejudice. Now we can can just make computer models based off a gazillion assumptions instead.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Michael Ferguson Albertville, MN — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:40:17 GMT

So, who cut her hair?

Puzzling over pre-humans

SB, Philadelphia, PA — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:44:39 GMT

I agree with a few of the others on here...if we evolved from primates, why arent we (or other animals who also "evolved") in a present state of evoluation. And how come when they show the "evolution" from water to land animals to cavemen, they stop right there? What happened after that?? And yes, WHERE DOES GOD FIT IN IN ALL OF THIS? This is sorta kinda like blasphemy. And how can they just "re-create" a 3D form from a bunch of bones that may not even be from the same being? lol these guys are really funny.

Puzzling over pre-humans

James MA — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:46:18 GMT

I'm Christian, and I know that the earth is evolving. I don't believe we came from apes or anything other than human. There is no denying that the earth has been here for billions of years. Dinosaurs were here. How could we say otherwise. Even for fundamentalist there are voids in time in the Bible that can't be accounted for. (How long were Adam and Eve in the garden before they sinned?) The problem is that evolution is a theory, not a law. It can't be proven. It has gaps and holes, and I even think it breaks a scientific law or two.

Puzzling over pre-humans

JC, Starkville, MS — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:47:14 GMT

Species evolve over thousands of generations. Nobody ever said two monkeys mated, and a human was born. I believe in God just as many of you do, but evolution is not something I "believe" in unless I "believe" that 2+2=4, or that antibiotics cure bacterial infections. I mean, I have never seen a bacteria die, but I know it happens. There is not one branch of science that agrees that life does not evolve. Even our cells evolved from prokaryotes. The mitochondria in each and every cell making up every human being has its very own extranuclear DNA of fractional size compared to the human genome.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Steve Saxbe, Akron, OH — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:48:00 GMT

Evolution = Fact
Creationism = Opinion
End of Story

Puzzling over pre-humans

Wesley — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:49:13 GMT

If you find a tire 10,000 years from now, would you say it was from a Ford Expedition? Our fossil record is so ridiculously small in comparison to the makings of our planet, how can we possibly even begin to come to so many conclusions about how it all happened? Humans, boy aren't we smart...

Puzzling over pre-humans

oldefarte — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:52:42 GMT

Cliff and Jane, obviously, you don't understand evolution, hence your unwillingness to accept it. Firstly, with regard to Jane's point, the apes of today HAVE evolved. We don't have 3 million year old gorilla fossils, because gorillas, as we know them now, didn't exist back then (just as people, as we know them now, didn't exist back then). Here's where anti-evolutionists go wrong: We did NOT evolve FROM a gorilla or orangutan, anymore than a limb high on a tree "evolved from" a limb lower on the tree. The lower limb has been growing/evolving all this time, just as the higher limb has grown/evolved since it branched forth. Gorillas may be your 2nd cousin twice removed, but they're not your granddad.

As to Cliff's point, what can one say? Does he expect to see fossil of a half-fish/half-frog, captured in the act of transforming? Or does he want to pick up a present day frog and watch it until it turns into a bird? Because if that is how he believes evolution works, then he's so wrong that one cannot even argue the point. However, he can go to any farm or any pet shop and get a notion of how evolution works by simply viewing the domesticated versions and variants of what were once wild pigs and aurochs and wolves (in domestication, it is man which provides the primary evolutionary pressure, unlike nature where "survival of the fittest" decides the direction of development). You don't bring a wolf cub home in the expectation that it will turn into a Llahsa Apso, but you can selectively breed wolves into Llahsa Apsos with enough generations, which is what mankind has done in a few thousand years. Nature, meanwhile, has had millions and millions of years to work her wonders, a generation at a time. If Cliff could figure out how to live for, oh, a million years or so, he probably COULD watch the transition.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Dan Babcock — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:53:47 GMT

If all creatures are still evolving then there could
possibly be a creature that evolves beyond Lucy and her descendants,thatis beyond humankind.If Man was made in image of God.Then he never evolved as Jesus was in the beginning with God and the human like angels.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Gina, Tampa, Florida — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:54:49 GMT

Lucy is just another animal of a species that lived once upon a time and became extinct. It doesn't mean it was a link to the formation of humans! Here is a link to how humans were formed...the B-I-B-L-E. For those of you out there slapping your foreheads and calling me ignorant I just want you to know....my kids are studying their bibles, and their kids will study their bibles, and so on. Makes you crazy mad, doesn't it?!? You can't erase the Word of God! It will prevail!

Puzzling over pre-humans

SD, Denver, CO — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:55:40 GMT

To believe in a fairy tale and take the bible as fact is ignorant.
It is full of contradictions and clearly not written by the hand of "god".

"God is a product of human weakness"
Albert Einstein

Puzzling over pre-humans

disalussioned in America, Glendale, AZ — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:58:33 GMT

I don't doubt that God created Humans, and all life for that matter. I do however disagree with mans interpretation of that creation. The bible is a great reference, but it's been edited over the last few thousand years to suit the leaders of the church.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Paul, Massachusetts — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:00:49 GMT

The people who are referencing an incomplete match in DNA between humans and apes are failing to mention that while our DNA isn't identical, it is a 97 percent match.

Apes are not our ancestors, but we are related. We both evolved from the same ancestor, but we've been unable to confirm who that is. This is "the missing link" you hear about.

Puzzling over pre-humans

marsha, blackfoot, idahp — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:01:53 GMT

One species that "became" another (or darn close to the scenario) - Canis lupus begetting Canis familiaris. And Canis familiaris becoming everything from Chihuahuas to Irish wolfhounds. Fairly recently, too. Amazing what a few thousand or even hundred years can make! Anti-evolutionists, the answer is right under your noses.

Puzzling over pre-humans

mark hodges, Republic, wa. — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:08:23 GMT

"a mix of human and simian traits" Thats what they said about the Piltdowm Man...which turned out to be a ape jaw stuck on human head...a hoax. However they still talked about various simian features of the human head and the human features of the ape jaw....what does that tell you about seeing what you want to see...another interesting thing..some chimpanzees today are quite capable of walking upright,and yet no one is claiming they are part human or on their way to becoming human...

Puzzling over pre-humans

Eric, Salinas, CA — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:09:41 GMT

It is so fascinating to live now as we discover more and more truth about our origins. Evolution is real and everyday we receive more proof of it's veracity. It is so cool that there are so many scientists out there putting the pieces together to tell us, and thanks Alan for posting this great informative article.

So sad that organized superstition freaks have to whine about their false god and their false myths. The real missing link is in their minds as they can't put one and one together to get two. Wake up and face reality for evolution is the greatest story ever told.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Ron Parsons, Orlando, FL — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:10:57 GMT

Sgt. Pepper- It's good to hear from you again.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Dave Johnson, Cambridge, Minnesota — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:11:15 GMT

Tt's amazing how truth can be missed by so many intelligent people. The Bible is the oldest written work that lists hundreds of details (people's names, names of places, history, prophecy predicted & prophecy fulfilled). Details are being confirmed by anthropologists all the time. Check out the authenticity of the Bible compared to other ancient manuscripts & it's clear it is authentic & accurate. If all that is true, then it follows that the Creation by God is true. Check it out.
Dave Johnson
Cambridge, Minnesota

Puzzling over pre-humans

George, Carolina Beach, NC — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:12:41 GMT

Jeff, I'll back you 100%. I have never been one to say that creationism must be in absolute opposition to evolution. Why must people be so arrogant about their individual opinions. I've often speculated that we "humans" may have already been around when God came and touched a couple of us and said "Now you have a soul and are created in My likeness".

Puzzling over pre-humans

Dan in DC — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:13:21 GMT

Wow such ignorance...the Bible? NO answers there!! Read it sometime...did you have sex before marriage? Yes? Then why aren't you stoned to death as The BIBLE says to do? We evolved from chimp/ape LIKE creatures..not from them directly..they evolved from the same creatures as we did but branched off of the tree. [...]

Puzzling over pre-humans

jason, DC — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:14:03 GMT

one can believe in "creationism" AND evolution. the two are not exclusive of one another. so few people believe the world is 6,000 years old.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Jen Fellmy, Lafayette, IN — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:15:29 GMT

1. People keep brining up "missing link" this and "missing link" that...the article does not once mention Lucy as the missing link. What it does bring up is the many different features that compare between apes and humans.

2. There is one side that never gets defended here. The ape side. Lucy is niether ape nor human. We are so quick to dimiss her as not being human, but alas, she is also not ape. Hmmm....where does she fit in creationists?

3. Also, to the person who believes in only God and the Bibe, and not the word of man. I'm going to take a wild guess and say that your Bible, like mine, is written in English. I'm not sure who at Zondervan translated mine into English from whatever language it was "originally" in (Greek?), but I'm going to guess that is was a human. While I'm certainly not a linguist I do know that direct translation from one language to another is nearly, if not entirely, impossible. So there must have been some, eh "editorial interpretations," done by man in the modern day translations of the Bible.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Debi, Chicago, Illinois — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:18:38 GMT

I do not doubt the existence of God or the idea of his creating the universe and this sweet little creature. What amazes me is the conceit of men who think that they and only they can interpret what he did. God has infinite ways of achieving his goals and evolution seems a very orderly and logical way of doing things. Are some people so enamored of themselves and so egotistical that the see themselves as God's greatest achievement?
Remember it was only necessary to send a Savior when man became so misguided and deranged that we needed to be taught again what goodness is. Why are these same people not trying to save His planet or His peoples.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Ron Conlon — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:18:59 GMT

I suppose if there were a holy book that preached a different concept of thermodynamics that people who were entirely ignorant of the theories of thermodynamics would feel entitled to spout off against them. Weird.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Chris Lyons, Scranton PA — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:20:07 GMT

I love how people use the "We havent found it yet so it cannot be found" argument as proof. Are you guys dumb? We HAVENT found everything...we WOLNT find everything. We arent any different from the life that surrounds us. If he had all the answers upfront then we would be god.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Jim Nolan, Madison WI — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:20:17 GMT

Has everyone forgotten that two fully human skeletons were found in the same strata as Lucy a few years later. Ancestor? I don’t think so!

Puzzling over pre-humans

Dan K. — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:20:35 GMT

I think it is extremely sad that so many people believe Darwin's and other's lies, and that it will cost them not knowing the truth about themselves. The truth that they have a soul and spirit, along with their created body. For any questions about life and its fundamental questions, check out the Bible.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Mary J, Denver CO — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:20:57 GMT

To Cee G,
Very funny statement "stories like this bring THEM out of the woodwork to do their rants". From what I see, the "rants" first came from people other than the "Bible Thumpers". Also, how is it that if you agree it is a fact and if you don't it's a rant? I believe everyone is entitled to an opinion.

To Jeff in San Diego - Why do you atomatically assume that people who don't believe in evolution don't understand it? I know plenty of people who understand it perfectly and still don't believe it. To answer your question about who's to say evolution isn't God's way of creating...God, actually say's it in Genesis.

NOTHING in this article seemed to be based on fact, only theory and yet people believe that and make fun of those who believe in creationism and calling THAT blind faith!

Puzzling over pre-humans

John Doe, Seattle, Wash. — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:21:14 GMT

Funny how you can spot the "churchers" immediately because they are threatened so easily. I think they should do some DNA and carbon dating on Santa Claus to keep the "churchers" happy also..

Puzzling over pre-humans

Kent at 46123 — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:22:39 GMT

Since there's no cartilage, skin, or hair, how do we know she had a nose, skin, and hair like an ape? Isn't that the artist's attempt to make her look like a transitional hominid, per the preconception that she is? I'd like to see a rendering of what Lucy could have looked like, if we assumed more human features! Shouldn't true science consider all the possibilities?

Puzzling over pre-humans

Jeff Provo, UT — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:25:09 GMT

I am a scientist and I am a Christian. I sympathize with those of you who feel that science challenges your interpretation of the Bible and your version of Christianity. But you must understand that evolution as a scientific principle is all but indisputable. Yes, there are still many questions that need to be answered, but ALL the biological sciences operate from the meta-theory of evolution. If carbon dating were critical to holding up the argument then we might be worried about just how accurate it is. But we see evidence from ethology (comparisons of different species) from archeology, from DNA, from psychology, etc. All these sciences keep finding evidence that confirms that life (including humans) is the result of evolutionary processes. Evolutionary concepts are used to develop your vaccines and to grow the crops and raise the animals you eat just to name a few of its applications.
I know that it might be hard for those of you who are not trained in evolution to understand how it works. Modern humans have existed for more than 150,000 years. By that we mean that we have essentially not changed in that time. That is because it takes more time than that for any real change to take place. I and many others live lives that are full of faith and abide by Christian ideals, but at the same time cannot pretend that what is there is not there. I cannot resolve all the inconsistencies right now, but I don't believe that I have to. But I know that misinterpretations of doctrine and the Bible have blinded many over the centuries. As a scientist I will look at what I can see, and measure. As a Christian I will have faith in what I cannot see. Someday, someone wiser than me will explain how it works, but for now I will live in both worlds and apply the appropriate method to each world; faith for religion, evidence for science.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Chuck Walker, Stillwater MN — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:25:11 GMT

Evolution is a fact. It's happening around us all the time. There are very few species of animals that are the same today as they were 1 million years ago. There is a lot of medical research and science today that relies on the fact that bacteria and viruses evolve. The "theory" part of evolution is that we are still learning how these processes work.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Alan Boyle — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:26:01 GMT

Folks, the noise-to-signal ratio is going up, and so there are some messages I'm not approving (or editing down) just because they don't really add that much to the discussion or rant a little too much against believers or non-believers. Please try to stay civil on on-topic. I know I'm not a perfect judge in this regard, so if your insightful message somehow went by the wayside, I apologize.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Deano, MusicCity USA — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:26:48 GMT

[...] We see evolution in progress all around us, we only "see", however, the snapshot of it in our little blink of an eye timing. If we could live millions of years, we'd witness various species beginning, dying out, and giving birth to new future species. Today, every canine variety from the Chihuahua to the Great Dane can be traced genetically to the Eastern Grey Wolf. But you cannot show me a specific chain from the Wolf to the Chihuahua. In the same way, you cannot retrace the specific chain (or tree limb) from "Lucy" to modern hominids, monkeys and apes. Evoution is more like a gigantic bush with many many limbs and twigs. It is a factual theory based on a convergence of evidence from all the various scientific disciplines. It has nothing to do with your respective mythical humanites and holy scriptures. Deal with it! [...]

Puzzling over pre-humans

Paul Mathews, Kansas City, KS — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:27:08 GMT

Hmmm!!! I don't know about yours but my God is smart enough to make evolution work. That is two opposable thumbs up for Lucy.

Puzzling over pre-humans

gdguynbalt — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:27:45 GMT

Of course every form of life is in transition(evolving) to accomodate changing environments. You can't see see it within a moment in time, it happens over millions of years. Both evolution and creation are 'theories', but evolution is backed by science..not just fairytales or feelings.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Jerry M. Weikle — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:29:21 GMT

Why are people still debating the issue of "Evolution vs Creation" at this point in time. Even the Catholic Church indicates that evolution is not against the Church. Genetic studies have proven, that DNA of humans and chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes and Pan panscis) are 98.9 percent identical.

For anyone to argue against evolution at this day and age, is illogical given the scientific knowledge. Evolution is not concerned with social structure or morality issue.

Religion, on the other-hand, is a belief system in something unseen and it is a metaphysical existance providing useful social structures and guidelines.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Deano, MusicCity USA, Bible-barf-bucket of America — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:30:08 GMT

It was science that exposed the Piltdown Man. Too bad all creationists today won't allow their work or findings to be peere reviewed (outside of creationists), for then surely there work would be exposed for teh hoax that it is. Then how could they make a living duping the gullible 90% of our great superstitious nation?

Puzzling over pre-humans

Tim, Alabama — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:33:51 GMT

I don't know about others, but I find it quite offensive for someone to tell me that my great-great-great-great grandmother was an APE! C'mon, how stupid do you really think "today's" humans are? Get a life!

Puzzling over pre-humans

Paul, Seattle, Wash. — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:35:34 GMT

Did anyone see the program on caves last night on Discovery Channel? They showed newts and crabs who's eyes no longer exist. From my perspective this shows that living in the absence of light, over time, eye function is no longer needed and thus no present on these animals or their descendants. Is that a clear case of evolution?

Puzzling over pre-humans

Cee G — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:36:31 GMT

This is what I mean - no one understands each other's theories and/or is willing to REALLY sit down and learn them. So...
Bible thumpers - You are right. Evolution is a big Satan-based plan to fool us, and God, in His infinate wisdom, is letting some of us fall for it. Poor us.
Evil-lutionists - You are right. A book that says it is The Word, and its proof is that it says so, is laughable.
I just dont understand why no one can simply agree to disagree -
(And none of that "You're corrupting society" stuff, because Catholic priests and 2000 years of various persecutions beat them to the punch. And also no "They're squelching the truth" stuff, because, you've got to admit, the fact we're even discussing evolution publically is a hell of an improvement over 150 years ago. Scopes, anyone?)
You believe X, I believe Y. Let it go folks.
Go take a walk with your kids, go to the beach, take a nap
Or continue to work yourselves into a frenzy, and I'll stop by all your graves.
Enjoy!

Puzzling over pre-humans

S.D., Oklahoma — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:40:04 GMT

What is so remarkable, is that as hard as humans try, we will never have all of the answers. We will never have the last piece of the puzzle, so we could somehow stand back and proclaim, "look at all I know."...or to say one side is right and the other side is wrong. It is an absurd arguement. I don't necessarily need to have all of the answers. Knowing that there were early humans and dinosaurs shouldn't shake my faith in the One who created them. We only know in part. I think that if mankind acquired the ability to be all-knowing, the world would be a scary place. There would be no room for faith, hope, wonder, or awe. It would be tragically void of questioning. These are questions that, at least in this lifetime, we will probably never have the answers to...and that ought to be okay.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Chantel — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:41:14 GMT

Evolution defies scientific laws. The Theory of Evolution says that over time, things are getting more and more complex. This is not true. It is a scientific law that things break up over time. Also, sea shells and rocks that are formed under water are found on top of mountains which is evidence of The Flood. There are a lot of problems with Evolution and I don't even have enough room to type all the problems I know of out. So, I'll post some links that elaborate on a lot of the problems. http://www.creationworldview.org/articles_view.asp?id=53, http://www.creationworldview.org/articles_view.asp?id=46, http://www.creationworldview.org/articles_view.asp?id=31, http://www.creationworldview.org/articles_view.asp?id=1, http://www.creationworldview.org/articles_view.asp?id=2, http://www.creationworldview.org/articles_view.asp?id=38

Puzzling over pre-humans

Justin Welty, Boise, Idaho — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:41:33 GMT

I am tired of people saying evolution is currently not occurring, there are multiple examples of it all around us. Bacteria and fungi are constantly evolving to become resistant to our antibiotics, animals are changing behavior due to climate change (man made or not), and a great example is the House Finch. A non-migratory western species is introduced on the east coast and evolves into a partial migrant where some of the individuals migrate south for the winter. Evolution generally takes millions of years, humans cannot think on that time scale. If you are alive for only 100 years of course you are not going to see it. There are multiple examples of micro and macro evolution. Just because it occurs does not mean there is no God, why are we so scared of evolving? We have this need to be special that I cannot understand. I think it is sad that despite lots of evidence (admittedly incomplete) we still rely on a creation story. Even though every race and religion has its own story, their stories are no more or less believable than the one in the bible. Its time to grow up and get over this idea that we are something special, maybe then we can realize what we are doing and work to save ourselves and the planet instead of destroying it.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Conjoe Lynch Portland, OR — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:41:53 GMT

God is powerful enough to have created the entire universe from a singlularity billions of years ago. He is glorious enough to have manifest all of the scientific principles necessary for the expansion of the universe and the evolution of man at that single point in time. His ways are mysterious and completely beyond human comprehension. The Bible would lay all that out if it were not limited by the imaginations of the inspired humans who wrote it. We are limited, God is not. To think that God would create reality in the simple minded fashion set forth in Genesis is to desperately underestimate God. God created all the Natural Laws: they are logical and follow rationally. To believe rigidly in biblical creationism is to deny use of the brain God gave you and rely instead on the instructions of other flawed humans. Don't be so afraid of exploring the world for truth, it all leads ultimately to God in the final analysis.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Dave Shepherd, Charlestown, Indiana — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:42:10 GMT

There is no difference between creationism and evolutionism. Evolution is simply the process of creation. There is a God (one God) who simply takes his/her time with the "work in progress." Small minded humans like to put things in small boxes that they can wrap their minds around and understand. We also tend to create our own version of things which is why we have so many variations of God based upon our societal backgrounds. Having done so we use this as an excuse to go around killing each other in the name of God! The "End Times" are indeed upon us simply because we are our own worst enemy and are playing out a self-fulfilling prophecy. Our only hope is to learn to live together in peace with each other and with nature. The alternative is self destruction. Have a nice day.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Mike, Ocala, fl — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:43:27 GMT

The new Duck-Billed Platypus DNA tests shows clear facts of evolution.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Steve Saxbe, Akron, OH — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:46:58 GMT

I Believe every story in the bible. I also
believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and
the Tooth Fairy. --- I also like sarcasim.

Puzzling over pre-humans

LJ — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:47:56 GMT

200 thousand years ago we caused the extinction of the Neanderthals. It’s an endless process. Survival of the fittest…
I hopefully make it up there to see this before they return her home.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Jake the Snake — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:48:12 GMT

Evolutionists and Creationists are both WRONG!
It's about the Economists. Because if you can't pay for it; you probably ain't gettin' any.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Rob KCK — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:49:49 GMT

People Evolution is not only a fact, it is a fundamental law of physics. Everything changes given enough time. Everthing.

Puzzling over pre-humans

B. Neal — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:51:25 GMT

Joe, no true Primate researcher has ever stated that we came from monkeys, only that we have common ancestors. [...]

Puzzling over pre-humans

Ted Troemel, Radcliff, KY — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:51:45 GMT

Hmmm, ok lets review...

Known Facts:
1. We are here on Planet earth.
2. Multiple views exist about how we got here.
3. Some with a "Creator", some without.
4. None of us were there at the time.
5. All views claim science proves their case(How many times have I heard that before).
Conclusions:
1. If there is no "Creator" we are just animals and all the arguments really won't change much.
2. If there is a "Creator" we are not just animals and all the agruments won't change much.

Opinion:
1. I suspect that if a "Creator" is involved, in whatever manner, then the "Creator" will settle the issue if it really is something worth argueing about.
2. I adhere to a version of the "Creator" view, but willingly listen to other opinions. We are free moral agents.

Have a nice day

Puzzling over pre-humans

Mich — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:54:06 GMT

Evolution is a "theory". A "theory" is a "hypothesis" that has not been dis-proven by the scientific method. Science is consistantly changing with new findings. If someone can "dis-prove" the theory of evolution they will be an extremely wealthly person and one of the most influential.

The problem with creationism is that it cannot be put under scientific testing....that's not to say it's not true, we just haven't been able to find a way to test it yet (although the europeans are trying). Some people are able to go on faith alone to discover their truth, others need a cause and effect rationale...and that's okay because that's how God made us.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Ira, syracuse, NY — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:58:04 GMT

ok, I have been taught the bible my whole life. I don't really believe in it but my upbringing makes me want to disagree with you. What I want to know is, if the bones were hundreds of miles apart, how do we know they're all from "Lucy"? How do we know we're not studying another stupid hoax and wasting time while the real answers elude us?

[ALAN ADDS: I'm not aware that the bones from Lucy were found hundreds of miles apart. You may be confusing this with the idea that bones from the species that Lucy represented ... Australopithecus afarensis ... have been found hundreds of miles apart. But these were different individuals (e.g. Lucy in Ethiopia vs. the Laetoli hominids found in Tanzania). Here's a link that references the Laetoli finds:]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laetoli#Human_remains

Puzzling over pre-humans

ED Chaney, Kosciusko, MS — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:59:33 GMT

I have been told that the knee that is attributed to Lucy was found at a level 200 feet different from where the other bones were found. If this is the case and I wish that someone could confirm or deny it, then Lucy is on pretty shaky ground since the knee again as I was told was one of the main reasons, they thought it walked upright. Any commentsZ?

[ALAN ADDS: In the book that Donald Johanson wrote, "Lucy: The Beginnings of Humankind," he describes finding two pieces of a knee joint that fit together in a way that suggested upright walking, apparently at some distance from the Lucy site, during the 1973 field season (page 155). This was a precursor to the Lucy find in 1974. Perhaps this is what folks were referring to. But this was by no means part of the Lucy skeleton.]

Puzzling over pre-humans

John Doe, Seattle, Wash — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:00:55 GMT

When I saw the headline saying 'Pre-humans', I thought the story would be about politicians.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Lamar Eufaula Al. — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:02:44 GMT

Humans are simply the result of selective breeding by aliens. Ape and alien DNA produce humans.
Lamar

Puzzling over pre-humans

Kenneth, Marshall, texas — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:03:06 GMT

Ok, first a lot of Christians forget that God Breathed Life into Adam. That life is what we call a Soul. The rest of Adam and US is window dressing. Where that window dressing came from only God knows for certain.

As for the 6000 or 10,000 year old earth, how long where Adam and Eve in the garden? When did they start ageing? Remember there was a tree of life in the garden.

Last thing, if you are going to tell of the wonderful creation and have it passed down generation to generation by word of mouth, how would you tell it? Make it simple so that everyone can remember it or give all the details?

I love to cook and there is nothing better than taking the basic things and combining them into a wonderful meal. For ME, I don't believe God is a Shake-n-Bake type of Guy. Can he Shake-n-Bake? Sure but my guess is that he took the time needed for each and every step.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Alex, Kansas City — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:04:45 GMT

Ah,the age old debate of Creation vs. Evolution...Scopes would be intrigued. I am an Athiest...a proud Athiest at that. I've been down the "Bible" road many times, I know it front to back. What brings me back to Athiesm? Science like that which is being done on Lucy. I love it, I love the knowledge gained, the theories postulated, tested, rewritten, and postulated again. This trial and error is truely how our species will move on, with good science, creativity, and discovery. I could go on for hours dismissing all the "God did it" creationists and their flimsy arguments, but, I have learned that it's a fruitless battle as most of them do not want to know the Truth. Let us modern humans evolve and learn and move on, and leave the more primative humans to their magic and sorcery.

Love ya Lucy!! Long live Science!

Puzzling over pre-humans

Matthew Columbus, OH — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:05:01 GMT

Small minds will always turn and run to the Bible because it gives them easy answers to complex questions they either don't really understand or that they are afraid to know the REAL answers to. That is why we have scientific inquiry. It is not always perfect, but it asks the right questions and it changes over time as we learn more. That's right...think about that. We can go back and revise incorrect theories and hypotheses when we discover new evidence. The Bible is a never changing ancient document that is full of errors, contradictions, and mythological fairy tales. You can wish for something to be true because it makes you feel good and it allows you to get through life without having to think for yourself...but in the end, it only deludes you into your own dark corner of ignorance. If you JUST have faith, it just means you aren't looking hard enough.

Puzzling over pre-humans

jamy, kingston, on — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:09:05 GMT

question.... i'm not saying that creationist or evolutionists are wrong, I have my own opinions but who says i am right. The question i have for creationist aside from the dinosaur fossils vs 6000 year old planet is this: If the universe is too complex to be an accident and the earth is so unique that it had to be created by a "higher power" then who created God?, because if the universe is that complex, then anything that created it must be infintly more complex and therefore had to have a creator... it could possibly "just always have been there". and if you believe that then you are proving evolutionist' theory for them.... that something infinitly complex "can just be"

Puzzling over pre-humans

john doe, seattle washington — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:11:28 GMT

so if i got a chimpanzee skeleton, wore it down, and took away one third of the bones, it would look different from that?

variables seen as constants is not how science works. science is about truth. surmising is an opinion. people can take anything and take it as truth. with creationists, the truth is the bible. with evolutionists, their truth is evolution. either party doesnt completely know the beleifs of the other party because they havent neccesarily seen the happenings or the proofs of that party, but if someone is involved in either party, then their truth tells them that the other party's truth is wrong. i could tell you about the miraculous wonders god has done in my life, and you wouldnt neccessarily beleive me.

if people read the bible, it tells them inside of it that inthe beggining there was God, and the word was with God, and the word was god. John 1:1
that means that everything in the bible is truth (if you beleive in it), and that god himself would not allow himself to be perverted throughout generations of man. it really comes down to whether god made man or man made god. saying that the bible is symbolism is saying that jesus wasn't raised from the dead, that the flood never happened, and that god isn't real.

also, ever notice how many peoples have died off, but the jewish people are alive and they have their land?

Puzzling over pre-humans

J Mlsna — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:13:14 GMT

lucy is not human nor a missing link. I believe we were created, but not by the GOD that most believe. I believe a sub human species was altered by a higher intellegence to become what we are today. Thats why they cannot find the missing link, we were created as a New species we did not evolve into one.I believe this more so than the bible.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Brandon, Pittsburgh, PA — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:16:18 GMT

LOL! Wow! The first posters called it. Didn't take long at all for ignorance to show up flashing 'The Bible' around and telling people there is no evidense. Sheesh...

Sometimes, I feel REALLY bad for those people... Then again, most of the time I don't! =P

Lucy is an amazing find. Her coupled with all the other fantastic discoveries over the years have really advanced our knowledge of the past. Thanks to all those scientists and researchers out there looking for the REAL answers!

Puzzling over pre-humans

Dyane Billings, Phoenix, Arizona — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:16:22 GMT

I believe God created Lucy as well as myself. I simply believe that while God created the world in 7 days, I do not believe that God created the the world in 7 - 24 human hour days. God created man in his image, that means his spirit, his essence, not his actual facial image, God does not have a body, Christ does. To me this is so logical, I do not understand why more people cannot reconcile God and science.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Richard G — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:16:55 GMT

Do I need to choose one belief system over another? There is exactly the same amount of EVIDENCE for godless cosmic accident evolution as there is for Intelligent Design: ZERO. There is ample evidence that this Lucy existed at one point in time, and another creature existed at another point in time. But there is NO evidence as to how creature A and creature B are related. The connection is nothing but supposition either way. There is no conflict between truth whether in science or in revealed religion. Both sides are fighting over differing hypotheses with no PROOF. Without proof, both sides are living by faith.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Miles — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:17:43 GMT

Monkey plus time does not result in human.

Monkey plus time results in old monkey.

The missing link is still missing.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Robin Byrd, Hermitage, TN — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:18:20 GMT

So no one has figured out yet that God is breeding us? First he put his DNA into clay to form Adam. Then he took a graft from Adam to create Eve. Then he had to create partners for Adam and Eve's children (perhaps other primates?). Then he chose the best of the results to survive and wiped the others out with a flood (Noah's Ark). Then he wiped out some more rejects with fire and brimstone (Sodom and Gomorrah). Then he sent Jesus to try to nudge us in the right direction, I'm not sure if that worked out or not judging by how many people have been killed in his name. It's just a bigger more dramatic version of what animal breeders do. Combine two animals with the traits you want, keep the positive results and destroy the negative ones.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Jim Rydell — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:19:01 GMT

It's important that we all use the same terms. Evolution is changing from one species to another. Adapation is changing within a species. We need to stop from confusing the two. Anyone who has read Darwin's work on evolution, should realize that he considered flowering plants to be the downfall of his evolutionary theroy. For flowering plants to prosper and multiply they need pollenators; such as bees, butterflies, etc. Unfortunately; before there were flowering plants there was no need for pollenators. Flowering plants and pollenators are totally dependent on each other. Therefore they had to evoluve at the same time, because one can't servive without the other. I can't believe that happened.

Puzzling over pre-humans

CR, Cherry Hill, NJ — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:19:18 GMT

Capitalism, Socialism, DARWINISM, Fascism, Communism, all these "-isms" all man made garbage

Let me tell you something about carbon dating - how erradic and incorrect its results can be. No scientist can point to a rock and tell exactly how old it is. they will all yield different results, especially if the data is taken under different conditions. Don't believe the hype, the earth is as the BIBLE says, created by the only God. Don't make this mistake now and wish otherwise later... poor people

Puzzling over pre-humans

The Etch, Alberta Canada — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:19:18 GMT

of course evolution is ongoing...and many species are currently in transition...haven't you ever seen a duck-billed platypus?..WTF?...it's the stupidest thing you've ever seen...or what about the 3 toes sloth?...in another million years, that bugger will be ripping around like nobody's business.
As for my viewpoint, I don't believe we are descendents from apes but that we evolved as our own species...on our current course due to global warming, we too one day will become extinct paving the way for other inhabitants

Puzzling over pre-humans

simplten — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:19:31 GMT

Cliff, Find a fit where you will; It's o.k. if your a creationist, but kindly don't pretend that my beliefs can't coexist with yours. You want examples of evolution? Look no further than the little finger on your hand. Do you see it receeding? What about your appendix or gall bladder? clearly they have evolved to a point where the human body no longer needs them. A dew claw on a prized canine? Hmm, how did that get there.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Pat Mac, Flowery Branch, GA — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:20:00 GMT

I don't think anyone disputes micro-evolution - that is, changes that occur and may be manipulated WITHIN a species. The problem is with macro-evolution, which is the assumption that new species have occurred from existing species. If macro-evolution happened so frequently as Darwinists proudly assert, why can't science reproduce a viable new species in the laboratory? You can produce a jackass from a horse and a donkey, but the jackass is always infertile. It's a big mistake to make assumptions about macro-evolution by observing micro-evolution.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Tim Baker, Trenton, MI — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:20:09 GMT

Unfortunately, the real issue here is a matter of whose word (or Word) one will take on an event for which no human was present to observe. Any serious interpretation of the Hebrew langauage and grammar of Genesis 1 can only come to one conclusion: the Bible teaches that the entire universe was created in six 24-hour days. God said, "Let there be . . ." and "there was." Obviously, evolutionists and most others will scoff at such an assertion. Those who would attempt to harmonize the Bible with evolution will run into significant theological problems (e.g., death BEFORE sin and the fall of man?). We are left, then, with two options: We can accept the biblical record as written by Moses under inspiration from God Himself, who has been there all along. Or, we can accept the observations of human beings, who were not there and whose thinking processes have been affected by sin and the fall of man (Genesis 3). I do not claim to be able to answer every objection, although it is interesting the number of evolutionary finds that have turned out to be inaccurate and even hoaxes. I know this: The choice is between siding with God or with fallen man. I choose God.

Puzzling over pre-humans

tom s Dania Beach, Florida. — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:20:16 GMT

The Bible does not mention the theory of evolution -- therefore evolution must be a fraud. The Bible does not mention the theory of gravity either -- gravity must be another fraud. At least we dont have to worry about falling into hell.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Bob Hammond, Douglasville, GA — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:23:53 GMT

By way of circular reasoning, the bones are 3.2 million years old determined by the rock strata they were found in. The rock strata is 3.2 million years old determined by the age of the bones found in the strata. I am a creationist, I come from the hand of God and not slime, ooze or apes.

Puzzling over pre-humans

William Brooks, Portland, Oregon — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:24:27 GMT

Billions of years ago I existed in other places. I know for fact I was not uncomfortable, hungry, or unhappy as a matter of fact I was perfectly satisfied being there.

I now have no doubt that once my present body stops working I will return to the same place I was at all those years. The beginning is as near as the ending and who cares for nothing can change that. Meanwhile don't get carried away by trying to make me unhappy for I can stomp as well as the next guy, maybe even a little better.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Bob Hammond, Douglasville, GA — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:27:08 GMT

Evolution is a theory. Let me see anyone who can prove this theory. It can not be done.

[ALAN ADDS: Technically speaking, no theory can be proven, unless you're talking about a mathematical proposition (and go ask Godel about that one!). Rather, evidence is amassed in support of a theory, and there is a good amount of evidence for evolutionary theory:]

http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/creation/proof.html

Puzzling over pre-humans

Kirk — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:27:20 GMT

For all those who are trying their hardest to deny we evolved from "lower" species, keep in mind that Lucy is just one of many pre-human species discovered through fossil records. To believe in Creationism, one must accept that all species were created at the same time, including dinosours and all other extinct species. This would mean that millions of additional species would have had to co-exist with each other (including humans) from the time of creation. Any biologist would tell you this would be impossible, as there would be way too many species competing for the same ecological niche.

It's everyone's right to believe as they choose, but it's also important for everyone to understand the difference between science & personal faith. Let's make sure that one is not mistaken for the other when it comes to science ciriculum in our schools.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Rey, San Juan, PR — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:28:59 GMT

"If Man was made in image of God.Then he never evolved as Jesus was in the beginning with God and..." --actually, Jesus is the best evidence yet for God's evolution. A transformation from the jealous vengeful God of the Old Testament to the forgiving Father [and son-union of angel and human] of the New Testament. A Christian who believes God is powerful enough to do anything, and that God is beyond human intelligence and understanding, should have the humility and strength to admit that God could use evolution as the mechanism to create the world. Not admitting that God could do that would simply indicate that the speaker felt God wasn't really powerful enough to do anything the speaker didn't want to believe he did.

evidence for evolution: antibiotic resistant diseases
domesticated animals, most commercially available plant crops,....
Science and Religion are not necessarily contradictory
Science doesn't tell you how to live, or what purpose your life has.
Religious texts don't explain the mechanisms of how life was created or how our environment works

Puzzling over pre-humans

Professor Reality, Vanderbilt University — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:29:41 GMT

I think the invisible flying spaghetti monster got bored 6,000 years ago and decided to wave his (not "hers" or "its"...HIS) magic wand and just magically "poof" everything into existence as it still is today. Dinosaur fossilized bones were just thrown into sediment to give Man something to play with, and the universe is static and unchanging, regardless of what astronomers and the other disciplines of science say. They are all just tricks of the evil green blob that roams the earth, the fallen failed experiment of the omniscient and perfect invisible flying spaghetti monster. Does anyone have some magic pixie dust to make this economy get better??
(thank god for science and reason.........)

Puzzling over pre-humans

JT Plascencia — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:30:07 GMT

I wonder, how can anybody assume that Lucy or any other fossil remains are directly related to us humans?
Today's living species are just a small amount of all the species that have lived in this world.
I assume that lucy's species were not alone during those days and knowing that Humans had Nearderthals living alongside at some point in time I would not be surprised if grandma was of a species other than lucy's.

Puzzling over pre-humans

RBS, Rogers, AR — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:34:11 GMT

God created the world and all living creatures, and he used evolution to do it.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Ed, maine — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:34:36 GMT

If creationism is the truth then every person on the planet is the result of incest or bestiality. "Cain took a wife in the land of Nod." Another human from some undisclosed God or a simian of some sort?
Use your brains people and quit relying on blind faith.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Ken Ward, Orange County, California — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:36:33 GMT

Humans didn't evolve FROM apes...humans ARE apes.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Britney, NY — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:36:53 GMT

I can honestly say that I am shocked that there are still so many Creationists out there who are ignoring so much of what EMPIRICAL evidence has shown us (not so much in regard to this story due to lack of evidence for argument's sake, but more along the lines of evolution in general). I think that it is good that you have so much faith in your idea of God and I would never take that away, but to sound more credible, express yourself more as an opinion because otherwise it just sounds preachy and a short-cut for thinking. I very much agree with Jeff in San Diego. Evolution could very well be God's way. The Bible is taken WAY to literally as evident in the comments above. I've seen WAY too many assumptions that evolution isn't taking place right now. They just found a group of monkeys that have started using tool on their own in the wild...

Puzzling over pre-humans

Evo-ian, Toronto — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:37:22 GMT

Alot of the Old Testament is identical, to much older Mesopotamian folk lore. These stories are older than the Bible, which to me does not hold water, when on the topic of human creation. i.e Adam and Eve, Moses, and Noahs Ark.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Todd, Billerica, Ma — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:38:54 GMT

The Bible is a book of stories written by ...... men. Not written by God, but written by men.

I believe in God, but I also believe in evolution. I believe in science and carbon dating. Lucy is more my relative than Adam and Eve who had two sons and somehow the rest of us came from that?

Puzzling over pre-humans

Barry Johnson, Sweet Home, OR — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:39:18 GMT

Wow, you all seem so intelligent, it is difficult to choose what to believe. I wonder if God evolved from the fear of the poor little creature who died and left her bones for our perusal? I wonder if her eyes were black all the way through, or if she had whites like you and I. How dark and frightful her nights must have been...(We assume that H. Erectus and H. Neanderthal had fire and hand axes and language, but this little creature had none of these wonders...)

Puzzling over pre-humans

Kaitlynn, Phoenix Arizona — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:39:50 GMT

The bible was not created by God, it was created by his people who tell stories of Christ, before Him and after Him. As to believing in God, it's really all up to you. You can believe or not believe it's up to you. However, I think you should respect other people's decisions. And as to the sculpture, I think it's amazing. It's filled with detail and it really shows the amazing process of evolution. I am a Catholic, but I believe we evolved from others such as Lucy.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Thomas Klaber, South Euclid, OH — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:40:42 GMT

I wonder if the reason the missing link is still missing is because we have been looking in the wrong place. Human phisiology has some important differences from the rest of the large apes. We retain the diving reflex,and we have a subcuteaeous layer of fat,covered by bare skin. All other great apes don't have these traits, but sea mammals do. Perhaps there was some marine adapted "water ape" that we haven't found yet. Bipedaism in this case would also facilitate swimming, which is almost instinctive to humans(except for me).

Puzzling over pre-humans

oldefarte — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:41:32 GMT

Oh, Dave from Minnesota - the same old rant: "The Bible is true because it's the Word of God and we know it is the Word of God because the Bible says so, which must be true because the Bible is the Word of God... " It's hard to rebut circular reasoning, because a circle, like a Creationist's mind, is a closed construct.

BUT, if one cannot begin to address your self-supporting and self-referential reasoning, one can, at least, point out that you are WRONG on particulars. Firstly, the Bible is NOT "the oldest historical text naming names and making prophecies" - many Egyptian texts predate it and do the same things. Indeed, the "Epic of Gilgamesh" antedates the Bible and, in fact, appears to have been plagiarized in parts by the earliest writers of the Bible as they trudged through Sumeria from the plains and highlands of present day Iran, toward the brighter lights of ancient Egypt. Moreover, you can't even say WHICH BIBLE or WHICH CREATION STORY you're relying on! There are 3 versions of "creation" in the "standard Bible" - two in Genesis and one in Leviticus (and none of them explains Cain's wife, btw). AND the "standard Bible" (most usually the King James version - amazing that fundamentalist Christians should give deference to the sponsored work of a pederast/sodomite and dabbler in the occult) is a compilation - books were removed, doctrine adjusted, editing occurred (particularly at such early Church councils as that at Nicaea). Whole sections (the Apocrypha, the Gnostic and Coptic Texts, the "Gospel of Judas", etc.) were taken out in order to "rationalize" it and to support certain interpretations. And, of course, there are transcriptional and translational errors which have accrued over the centuries; e.g., in St. Paul's writings, he uses the term "a teos", which makes Jesus "a God" (not "The God"), yet most Christian sects render it as "a Teos" ("The God")changing St. Paul's "God inspired" terminology in order to bring it into conformity with other Gospel references such as Jesus' reputed claim to be "the I am", hence the conflict between folks such as Unitarians and Trinitarians and sects like the Jehovah Witnesses and the Albigensians. So, did God misspeak to St. Paul or did he screw up the dictation? As to the "fulfillment of prophecy", is it not odd that the foremost scholars of the Old Testament prophecies, namely the Jewish Rabbis and Talmudic scholars, are the ones who most vehemently deny the "fulfillment of prophecy" which is the keystone of Christian faith?

Yet you and your ilk confidently assert that the Bible is the inspired and exclusive answer to all questions - but then claim that evolution is faulty because nobody's actually seen a frog turn into a bird, as tho' that's how it works. I suggest you familiarize yourself with BOTH the history of the Bible AND the actual tenets of evolution before you presume to comment.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Matt, Boston — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:42:28 GMT

Its amazing how people can contradict each other so heatedly upon a topic that they know nothing about, besides what a single book teaches them (i.e. the CHRISTIAN bible), or what they read in articles like this. There is endless scientific research involved in studies like this, just as there is endless religious research involved in studies of the bible. As many people have said, they are not, as much as people want them to be, mutually exclusive. There are some things that science cannot explain that can be explained by religion. However, it works the other way as well.

To all those who are saying "why dont we see humans evolving", please, do us all a favor and dont post anymore. Humans, just in the past few thousand years or so, have evolved from nomadic groups, hunting and living secluded from others, into the global society we see today. That is evolution. While the physical changes may not be significant to the point of being noticable, the societal changes (change = evolve) cannot be ignored.

Lucy may not be the "missing link", and there very we may never find one. 99% of all animal species that have ever lived on the earth are extinct, and we have fossils and evidence of a miniscule percentage. To say that evolution or creationism by itself is a falacy, is ignorant; nobody has yet to explain the explosion of life on earth over a billion years ago. However, it is widely accepted, even among the religious community, that it was a billion years ago, and not thousands.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Silent, H-town, California — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:45:04 GMT

disallusioned, study the Hebrew word "yom" and refer back to Genesis 1.

Paul, that 97% similarity is actually only compared to 1% of our DNA. Therefore our DNA isn't 97% similar to apes but 0.97%.

One more thing, Lucy's leg bones were found a mile away and deeper than the rest of "her" body..

[ALAN ADDS: I don't see where you get the 1 percent / 0.97 percent figure. Perhaps you're working with outdated information. The draft of the chimp genome was published three years ago, and compared with the 3-billion-base-pair human genome. The result was that 96 percent of the coding was identical, as I detailed in this story at the time:]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9136200/

[I don't see any reference to the leg bone being found far away. In fact, on page 16 of Johanson's "Lucy," he describes finding a thighbone "a few feet away," and finding other bones on the same slope. There's further description on page 21: "Her head had not been carried off in one direction and her legs in another, as hyenas might have done with her. She had simply settled down in one place right where she was, in the sand of a long-vanished lake edge or stream - and died. ..."]

Puzzling over pre-humans

Andy, Jacksonville, FL. — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:46:00 GMT

There's a stronger scientific case for creation than there is for evolution. Many people hold very firmly to the IDEA of evolution as being fact simply because if they gave creation the time of day it would force them to admit that they might have to answere to a higher authority some day. They are wilfully ignorant in their own beliefs. It takes more faith to PREACH, which is what many evolutionist do, evolution as "fact" than it does to see creation as reality. There's evidence and answers to support creation with little doubt except that one can't see the creator. But, that evidence will never be seen or understood by those who have intentionally blindfolded themselves to it intentionally.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Edmund Bates — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:47:53 GMT

This argument amuses me. Evolution is a fact, we have insane amounts of proof. It is also a theory. A scientific theory is a MODEL of how the facts operate. Christians are just gullible. Oh sure, they'll believe some old book that pre-dates the scientific method...but as soon as the people who brought you the Internal Combustion engine provide you with a working model of how we came to be, they want to complain about it. Whatever, if you don't want to believe in evolution that's fine...then you also shouldn't accept electricity. Because we have about as much proof of evolution as we do of electricity.

tards.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Britney, NY — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:50:56 GMT

I wish people wouldn't explain away tangible evidence of evolution because "the BIBLE says so". I mean really. It's good to have faith, but don't let it blind the truth.

Puzzling over pre-humans

ApesNOTPottery — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:51:36 GMT

"The NEW Creation "Theory""
Day 1 - Light (Big Bang)
Day 2 - Heavan and Earth (Stars and Planets,asteroids etc.. form)
Day 3 - Land and Sea (Wow! water flows to the lowest points)
Day 4 - Firmament (Raging seas and volcanoes stop long enough for Day 5)
Day 5 - Plants and animals (Plants would come before animals in evolutionary theory)
Day 6 - Man (Would make sense)
Day 7 - Rest
Day 2,043,949 - The "toilet" or "Time machine" is invented to propel organic waste back in time to feed plants that will later decay and form coal.
Day 2,111,556 - The industrial Revolution begins - Use of Coal becomes predominant.
Day 2,158,628 - Automobiles start becoming affordable, straining the practically nonexistent oil reserves.
Day 2,169,950 - Scientist subject lizards and small crocodiles to radiation, growing them to astronomical proportions. Almost immediately, they begin to irradiate them by the hundreds and send them through the "toilet" to live off the plants that the rest of the organic material had been fertilizing (the original test animals were sent to Japan for use in films). Thus resulting in what we would call "Dinosaurs" <- from the latin meaning "giant irradiated godzilla-lizard monster"

There you go creationists, That should do it, explains why dinosaurs aren't in the bible, why oil tycoons are full of [crap], and why you should really have paid attention in science class. HA!!

P.S. The "plunger" is actually a calibration tool, used to adjust the coordinates that your "toilet" projects the waste to.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Dave Barber — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:55:25 GMT

The idea that the theory of evolution is fake or ill-conceived is uneducated, ignorant, and irrational. A theory is not a theory until it has been tested, tested some more, and tested again. The results are verifiable and consistent.Please consider how "beliefs" might fare under the same scrutiny. Four plus four will always equal eight, even if someone believes otherwiset.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Deano, MusicCity USA — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:58:17 GMT

For those here who obviously don't understand evolution and see science and real knowledge as evil, it's probably too late to go back to an accredited college to educate yourselves. Instead, please just read Dr. Michale Shermer's book, "Why Darwin Matters". It's a quick read and a basic primer to the reality of science and evolution. You'll be stunned to find out that Charles Darwin actually returned from his famed voyage as a creationist. It wasn't til later, after studying his findings and research, that he came to the unavoidable conclusion that evolution is true. For him, "it was like confessing murder". Dr. Shermer is also a recovered fundamentalist and ex-creationist. You too can wake up to reality.

Puzzling over pre-humans

suzanne smith- austin texas — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:01:39 GMT

The Bible DOES NOT say the earth was created in 6 day or 6000 years. There is no time period mentioned so creationist who say 6 days or 6000 years are wrong. It simply says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Day in the Bible is a relative term just like we say today-back in the day but don't actually mean 24 hours. And the reason there is no missing link is because humans were created as humans and ape, monkeys, etch were created as their own kind. Scientists have been lying for as long as there has been science-the earth was flat they said but the Bible said it was a circle and guess who was right? Scientists are like the rest of us-imperfect and subject to changing their ideas and minds when their "knowledge" becomes out dated or updated. Believe them at your peril.

Puzzling over pre-humans

farmgirlwithabrain, Kansas — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:02:03 GMT

Who is to say that the evolution evolved isn't actually degeneration or genetic flaw. Most people believe that only the biggest, prettiest, and best come forward, but in isolated groups that don't have a push to evolve in that direction, things may actually go the other way. (for example the strange creatures of Gallapogos Island and Austrailia) I guess I'm saying that after the fall of Adam and Eve...perhaps there were some groups that decended that weren't so smart & a lot more hairy. They had to have dispersed as rapidly as they multiplied. In other words, could Lucy's group have decended (degenerated) from mankind? Instead of the other way around??? Hmmm...something new to think about.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Henry — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:05:17 GMT

Dear Jane,

We are all fully evolved beings! Current apes today are fully evolved to their current state. Whether we are talking about modern day bacteria or modern day mice or modern day men. We all have evolved to our modern present day state. Evolved is a misunderstood word. Evolved does not mean more intelligent or higher on the food chain. What it does mean is that over time given a geographical barrier that genetic shifts happen that favor survival. Over the course of a hard to imagine million years, 100 million years, or billion years, the differences become so great that the analog species on the other side of barrier can no longer be considered the same species because they can no longer mate. So to answer your question, yes... every species on the planet will evolve.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Dan, Temecula, CA — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:07:47 GMT

I for one, do believe in God, but I also believe that evolution is a proven fact. Having said that, I do not believe man came from ape. We are distinctly different and no as of 10/04/08 has proven otherwise. There is no "missing link" for a reason. Please hear me out:

I've seen many comments here ridiculing people's belief in God, and I ask those who ridicule this one question: since most of you are logical beings, how do you explain how we all came into being? You CANNOT. I've heard many explain evolution after the fact and the Big Bang theory, but please tell us WHAT started the Big Bang? How do you account for something starting from nothing? It's impossible, that's why. It is illogical to believe something came from nothing. To believe that the Big Bang started by itself is a much larger leap of faith than believing in the Lord. The only thing that can make the impossible possible is God. Think about it before or after you are angry with my words... Only God could've started the universe. This is the only logical expanation for an illogical situation. Again, how can something start from nothing? It CANNOT. When you finally have reached this conclusion because most of us are logical, thinking beings, know that God is the reason and you and I can be saved by our savior, Jesus Christ. Thank you for hearing me out and God Bless us all. We need to keep hope alive for I know a lot of people are facing hardship in the world, but the world is not of God, Heaven is.

Puzzling over pre-humans

ApesNOTpottery — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:11:26 GMT

Tim, from Alabama wrote "I don't know about others, but I find it quite offensive for someone to tell me that my great-great-great-great grandmother was an APE! C'mon, how stupid do you really think "today's" humans are? Get a life!"

You're about 159,996 "greats" short

Puzzling over pre-humans

TEH, Concord, NH — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:12:18 GMT

Sorry SD, but if people trusted only in what they saw, Christopher Columbus never would have left Italy. It is a tremendous and wonderfuld thing to have faith. And despite your apparent quote from Albert Einstein, he believed greatly in God and had tremendous respect for religion.

Faith means only to believe in something despite the fact that you have no solid evidence. It comes in many shapes and sizes (the missing link and the bible).

For me, I will always place my faith in my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. God Bless.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Linda, Cleveland, Ohio — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:16:38 GMT

I find the information regarding Lucy fascinating. I don't think the bible should even be mentioned here as it has nothing to do with science. Any "scientific info" in the bible is based on the beliefs & knowledge of people in that day & age. They did not have the scientific knowledge that we do now & it seems ridiculous to me to dismiss how far science has come. I think if it threatened Christianity, there would still be a great number of people still believing the Earth is flat.

I was brought up christian. Evolution, to me, is undeniable though. For one thing, if we were all decendants of Noah we would all look fairly similar. There are vast differences among humans, though...different human races...whose features correspond with their place of origin and environment. These differences in human features wouldn't occur in the time span the bible allows.

I think it scares some people...the idea that we are just another species of primate on this planet. Then we might have to accept that we don't live in some way after death. I'm sure it scared our ancestors to realize we all grow old & die...it was probably too hard to accept the finality of it.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Cassandra, Dallas, Texas — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:21:45 GMT

This is such a great summary of some of what is & isn't known. Very interesting read. Thanks!

Puzzling over pre-humans

Jack Perine — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:21:59 GMT

As much as you evolutionist want to make something out of nothing, there is no evolution regarding humans. Clarence Darrow the father of the human evolutionary lie, later recanted his belief in the concept. It is not real regarding humans.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Sebastian, Québec, Canada — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:23:20 GMT

My, my, aren't we edgy. What is it with you? Always starting a fight over every little things! Live and let live. You want to believe in god creation, than suit yourself. You want to believe in evolution, good for you. Fighting over it is not going to do any good.

Just so you know, I believe in evolution, always have, always will. I am a scientist to the bone. Most of the arguments I have read against it can be refuted, but you need more than de average knowledge of science to understand the arguments. (Just to make myself clear, I am not saying that anyone who doesn’t understand is dump, not at all, we all have our interest and strong point. And, fortunately, they are not all the same. Life would be boring otherwise.) So it would be useless to begin here.

But I would just like to say two things:

-To all of you who believe in evolution, don't attack the beliefs of other. Cynical comments included.

-To all of you who believe in creationism, don't come call us foolish heretics.

Anger beget anger
You should know better!
Why not try to live in peace for once? Am I the only one who is tired of all this fighting?

Puzzling over pre-humans

Jim, Cleveland OH — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:23:39 GMT

Why do the creationist refuse to just let science happen? Guess what guys? This stuff is more accurate than a book that was largely re-written to reflect the veiws of the church 500 years ago. Creationism had to happen because that's what the popes of the time (and up to the 1700s) would not kill you for believing. Can't you just accept the fact that you are living by something that is largely human in creation, and is probably mostly fantasy and politics? I am a christian, but I don't see why people still want to believe everything they read or are told just because someone else says "God said so."

Puzzling over pre-humans

J.D. Francis ,Columbia, SC — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:25:31 GMT

If humans and apes had a common ancestor, then why did humans outperform apes so drastically on the evolutionary scale? The gap between humans and ancestor is rather large considering that we came from a lesser life form than apes. Hence, the gap between apes and humans must be less than the gap between man and common ancestor. Unless apes haven't evolved much at all over the last several million years.
It's a pity that all of the links between us and the monkey-man are dead. Probably because they were not able to survive as deformed monkey mens.
Long live LUCY!

Puzzling over pre-humans

Kevin Arnold, Bumpass, VA — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:27:05 GMT

i am amazed at how mant people dont actually know anything about evolution and how it works or that fact that its still just a theory. i also find it real sad the fact that most people have a real closed mind about such a thing. Anyone that sasys "they Know" where they came from is simply a liar. plain and simple. there is no evidence here or there for either side that shows a complete picture of "The Truth".

get off your high horses. and broaden your horizons.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Jim, La Mirada, CA — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:27:46 GMT

I can't believe that in all these arguments against evolution, that no one has addressed the most obvious. "Evolution" does occur every day all around us in terms of genetic mutations and natural selection, such as bacteria. But all of these are simply a change or loss in DNA currently in an organism, not a change in species. A species always changes into the same species. All the domesticated dog breeds of today have DNA found in wolves, but not all the DNA of wolves is found in all breeds of dogs - much of it is lost through selective breeding. Evolution as a species evolving into a more complex species would require the addition of genetic material - something that has never been observed nor a mechanism to suggest it's even possible. What we see today are many species that have evolved from single created "kinds" of animals with an abundance of genetic information that have changed or lost some of that information to better suit the environment they are living in.

BTW - I'm an engineer and a creationist.

Puzzling over pre-humans

TruthBTold — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:27:49 GMT

One of these days when scientists discover 'the' life in outer space, or 'they' finally make themselves known to us for all to see, we will be forced to accept that all life/beings/organisms evolve over long periods of time. Our galaxy The 'Milky Way' is filled with billions of stars and planets, and the Universe is filled with billions of galaxies, all filled with billions of stars, planets, and solar systems. I think the 'human' race should wake up to this,(minus the astronomers) and realize that when this is proven, that all life evolves.
We are merely 'pups' in the grand scale of the Universe, with billions of solar systems much much older than ours. It's too bad people walk around their whole life just thinking that the stars above them are 'twinkling lights' for their enjoyment.
We evolve. They evolve. Everything evolves.
Yes...this does relate to Lucy. We did not evolve from 'apes' or 'monkeys', just a form of primate from which we are still so much alike. Did God give us a push?...I think so. Did God create the path we were able to walk on safely to extend our reach into the future?....yes. It all connects. I'm not the most religious person in the world, and I am also not the 'think what science says' person either.
Will I be punished for not accepting Him 100% in my life, or is He the kind that would set all these questions in front of us for we to figure out?
If so, I know my answer. You folks can find yours, good luck. :-)

Puzzling over pre-humans

JH, Boise, ID — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:28:00 GMT

If it looks like a monkey...it's probably a monkey. There are no "missing links".

Puzzling over pre-humans

Diana L. — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:29:38 GMT

aRTHUR fLOURNOY pENNSAUKEN,nj is absolutely correct when he says how wonderful it is what scientists can do with a few "old bones". It's called forensic science and we solve crimes with it every day.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Dash Rockstone, Somewhere in Sasquatch Country (Pacific NW) — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:31:20 GMT

"Evolution is simply the process of creation." - Dave Shepherd
Not quite sure where you got this little tidbit, but it's completely false.
Abiogenesis is the "act of creation". In other words, from a scientific point of view, it represents the beginning of life on this planet.
Evolution incorporates the changes that life has gone through since it's beginning. At no point does the TOE (theory of evolution) make any reference to how life began, only that once it did begin it also began to adapt.
Hence the term "survival of the fittest". Which most people misinterpret to mean survival of the strongest. Strength has little to do with fitness. To be the "fittest" a specie must be adaptable. The reason that humans are one of the most prolific species on the planet is due to our adaptability. Like bacteria, we can live almost anywhere.
I do have one question for folks who believe in creation and world floods though: If evolution does not take place, and there were only eight people on Noah's big boat, where did all the different colors of people come from? What about other differences other than just the color of our skin?
All Africans aren't "black", nor are all Asians' eyes shaped the same. Not to mention many other differences.
"The Theory of Evolution says that over time, things are getting more and more complex." - Chantel
What's not true is this statement. The TOE says things change, not necessarily that they become more complex. Irreducible complexity is something that creationists such as Michael Behe argue.
The TOE is a theory, genetic mutation is a fact, facts and theories are different things. The TOE is a "theory" because it's mechanisms are still being studied and not 100% understood. However, we know that genetic mutation takes place, it's an observable fact. Therefore, we know that at least that part of the TOE that states species will change over time is fact, it's been observed.
"The Bible is the oldest written work that lists hundreds of details (people's names, names of places, history, prophecy predicted & prophecy fulfilled). Details are being confirmed by anthropologists all the time." - Dave Johnson
This is wrong on so many levels. Anthropologists make no claims as the historicity of the bible. An anthropologist studies cultures, not history. Unless they're a archaeological anthropologist, but again they could only tell you about the culture of a people based on artifacts, not whether their belief in a certain deity was warranted.
The bible is also far from being the "oldest" anything. Cuneiform writing from Sumer is the oldest known form of any written language dating to about 5000 BCE (That's around 7000 years old), the bible in it's current form has only been around since The Council of Nicea in 325 CE. According to most biblical scholars the old testament texts were written at around 800 BCE.
Any BTW, archaeologists aren't detailing the accuracy of the bible all the time either. Actually it's quite the opposite. The bible has also been shown to be quite wrong on many occasions as well.

Puzzling over pre-humans

aliveinsd — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:33:13 GMT

There is nothing in evolution that precludes religion. The Lucy fossil is not conclusive of any theory. Science of Human ancestry is an on-going experiment. There are many questions yet to answer. Many questions may never be answered. But we must ask those questions (a very Human trait).

Puzzling over pre-humans

Jon, Holland MI — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:33:23 GMT

This is a discussion that is very difficult for people to grasp - from both sides of it. Here is where creationists and evolutionists have something in common: they both believe in something that cannot be "proven" true (at least not to this point). Further, they also believe that the opposing viewpoint is full of lies and they should try and destroy the opposing viewpoint. They therefore attack anyone who believes differently and slam their intelligence (I am referring to evolutionists and creationists both). Both hold their stance to be true based on some sort of evidence, whether that is the fossil record for an evolutionist, or a personal testimony for a religious person. Either way, nobody can take away from either of those. Therefore, we get no where in attacking people and their intelligence. Let's have honest open discussions so we can get along as fellow humans (after all we all agree on that I hope) and realize we will never be able to "force" our views on others, whether it be from a scientific approach or a religious one.

I don't claim to be a theologian, and I am not a scientist. I do believe in God and the Bible. I don't claim to understand everything. I don't believe the world started 6,000 years ago (but that doesn't contradict the Bible - in fact the Bible doesn't state how "long" it took; six days is a symbollic reference in my belief). Basically what I'm saying is, evolutionists can have their worldview, but it doesn't interfere with mine because I really don't believe it has any bearing on whether or not God created this world and the creatures within it. God gave us brains to use, so if we want to try and figure out how he did it, then great. If we think we evolved, then maybe that was God's way of creating. If you are a "creationist" (a fancy word for believing God created the universe) just remember that God's timing isn't our own, so evolution isn't ruled out as a possiblity. I'm not saying I necessarily believe in it, I'm just saying anything is possible and we'll never really know will we? We con't prove or disprove the other, or else this argument would be done by now.

Let's just realize that we're here. So now, what do we do?

Puzzling over pre-humans

Joe, Red Wing, MN — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:33:29 GMT

had to respond to the person who said that our DNA is a 97% match. Well cars and planes are made of the same material as well .... why don't you try taking your car for a little flight. Just because things are made out of the same material, doesn't mean they are the same thing, genius!!

Puzzling over pre-humans

Bill Kerschner — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:34:51 GMT

Having been on both sides of the issue I can tell you that Evolution is a joke. The only reason that it is propagated so fiercely is that, plainly speaking, any scientist or professor aligned with a University must speak as if they believe in Evolution whether they really do or not, elsewise they will lose their jobs or future careers. Evolution is destructive in many ways not the least of which is it's past contribution to shaping Adolph Hitler's views and massacre of innocent Jews.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Clifford Tobias, Philadelphia, PA — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:35:31 GMT

I saw the impressive "Lucy" exhibit at the Cleveland Natural Science Museum and attended Dr. Johanson's lecture.

Clifford Tobias, Ph.D., Case Western Reserve U., 1975

Puzzling over pre-humans

bob armantrout, sahuarita, AZ — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:41:39 GMT

they dig up people, they dig up monkeys. when will you people realize there is nothing in between? try, worry and hunt as you may...you never will find the in-be-tween!! silly people!

Puzzling over pre-humans

mike delehanty — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:44:20 GMT

A guy finds some old monkey bones that are a million years old. Some how he decides the monkey may have been able to walk on it's hind feet. Someone else says "gee this may have been an early human". All of a sudden it becomes fact. They name it Lucy and make a living displaying it around the world. Science or salesmanship?

Puzzling over pre-humans

Sharta, Chico CA — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:44:32 GMT

Where are the mid-ground people here...the Intelligent Design people?

Intelligent Design is the only way Christians will be able to defend their limited scope of the world very soon. Clearly, there was no creation as it is typically referenced, but just maybe, there was some form of intelligent design. It's the only mid-ground that will allow you to save some face, so you should begin to accept it now.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Frank Glover, Rochester, NY — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:46:18 GMT

Sheree, Other faiths have their own creation stories, believed by people as devout as yourself.

Yet they can't all be correct. (And it's reasonable to consider that none of them are correct). Still, for reasons I readily admit I can't prove, I don't completely discount the existence of some thinking, creative force behind the Universe.

And so, I'm an agnostic.

Meanwhile, I rationally look at what nature/The Universe shows us and go from there. If someone can fit these observations into their faiths, more power to them. Faiths that can't accomodate them, I suspect will eventually wither and disappear.

And that, too, is a kind of natural selection...

Puzzling over pre-humans

Mike, Kansas City, Kansas — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:47:37 GMT

It cracks me up to hear people say that "Evolution is not a fact, it's not a scientific law, it is just a theory." Well here is a fact: There are only approx 20 scientific laws out there today. In fact Gravity, Plate Tectonics, and Einstein's Relativity are still considered theories.

A scientific theory is a wonderful thing. It can be tested against and proven wrong. One of the great things about the evolutionary theory is that it has withstood the testing over the past couple hundred years in ways that further solidify it's claim.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Russ Wright, Sandy, Utah — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:47:56 GMT

It still amazes me how few people, both pro- and anti-evolution, actually understand what Darwin proposed. I am both a religious person and a scientist, and have spent considerable time actually studying evolutionary theory, unlike so many who firmly state their opinions. My study has convinced me that 1) life on earth progressed from simple to more complex forms over a very long time, and 2) the idea that this evolution occurred due purely to "random mutation" and "natural selection" is laughable and statistically impossible. Just take one course in probability and statistics and then look at the fantastic complexity and variety of life on this planet and you will have to agree. True science indicates clearly that something else has driven evolution.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Dave, Santa Barbara, CA — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:51:04 GMT

I believe in a Creator, but do not think that everything in the Bible is to be translated literally. The Bible talks about "sunrise" and it influences our vernacular. I think that Genesis speaks to Creation's modality and purpose and NOT history and science.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Erica J., Hickory, NC — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:56:23 GMT

I LOVE the comments against evolution and the ones for creation! I am definitely a Christian and believe in God's word. The missing link isn't there and for those looking, you are just trying to validate yourselves so you won't have to believe in God. When in reality, you will all one day see the truth. Even if you (those wonderful scientists) think you find something, it will be a hoax or some other mix up to make it look like the scientific world has really done something great to prove us creationists wrong. Believe what you want people, but I choose to believe in the Word of God. God is the only one capable of miracles and made the earth look and seem as if it was older that it really is. Read your Bible.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Freedom Triplett, North Platte, NE — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:57:27 GMT

Chimpanzees can not consistantlt walk on upright and need frequent balance from their hands when doing so. Humans however need no help and can walk that way all day long. We are also still evolving especially our backs. If we were done we whould not have spine problems. Also there was a time when humans needed our Wisdom Teeth, however we do not need them anymore, some people are not born with them at all that is an evoulutionary trait that may be or may not be passed down into the gene pool and if not is still a type of evoulution. Their are creatures that when moved from a desert to an island evolve different scale patterns withen a couple of generations this to is evolution, and yes so is Domestication of animals, just as we are domesticating our selves, by lack of excercise and excess food. Living things change, the traits you pass to your children is the first step for evolution. My father once quoted the Bible and told me "A day for God can be Billions of years for man." So he created the world in seven of his own days, I can beleive that if that is how it works. What creatures existed then and what changes have happened? Who can know for sure. Just rember we were supposedly made on the 6th day thats at least six Billion years or us. So those of you who think you know science or think you know God take notice.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Matt , New Orleans — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:57:34 GMT

Hominids came before humans; then led to neandrathals and the more common Cro-magnon, during the ice age or rather when cro-magnons became dominant over the planet, would they be considered linked to modern humans. The classification for the first hominid or pre-human: would be the first primate to use tools and stand upright, among that list Seeing color could be added and others. This is complicated u need to read about it. I may be wrong about some things myself.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Mark Peltz, Portladn, OR — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 22:00:20 GMT

What is not told is that Lucy "parts" were discovered over a span of a year, in different levels of sediment (up to 100 ft), and scatter over a mile downstream in an ancient river bed. How can you reconstruct anything meaningful from that soup of data? If evolution produced billions of mutations, I would expect unlimited skeletal remains; especially in light of thousands of intact dinosaur remains form a period tens of millions year prior. My point…nobody has the answer. The little evidence is all based on presuppositions of two believe systems: evolution(ism), and creation(ism). (The suffix-ism denotes a distinctive system of beliefs)

Puzzling over pre-humans

TheFallibleFiend, LORTON, VA — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 22:00:33 GMT

1. Evolution violates no known scientific laws. Claims to the contrary are based on gross misunderstandings of the laws in question.

2. True, there were some frauds. Some of the claimed frauds are not actual frauds. They're just claimed to be frauds with no evidence. Of the actual frauds, their fraudulence was discovered by real scientists (i.e. evolutionists) and not creationists. Frauds like Piltdown never had any significant impact on evolutionary theory.

Creationists see this kind of silly thing stated on various websites and repeat it without understanding it.

Evolution is collection of facts and a body of theory to explain those facts. There is no legitimate case against it.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Joe Red Wing, MN — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 22:00:54 GMT

Rob KCK,
Change is different than evolution. As a matter of science, the simple fact is that most things deteriorate and decay over time, not turn into something else. Simple adaptations to environment are part of our ability to adapt and heal, but there is absolutely no proof (NONE!!!) for what many evolution believers spout out about jumping species.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Ross — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 22:01:27 GMT

It blows me away the way people get so indignant about evolution. Why should it bother you where you came from millions of years ago? It has no bearing on what or who you are now.
There was a time when the "church" believed the world was flat, and that the earth was the center of the universe and that all heavenly bodies revolved around the earth. We now know that without a doubt that this is all untrue. There was also a time when anyone who dared to speak the truth was labeled a heritic and was torchered and killed for there belief. At this stage of the game we have a pretty good handle on what is truth and what is not, with alot left to learn. But here are some basic truths that we do know.
God did not write the bible, men did. the world is way older than what the bible says. and just maybe evolution is Gods intelligent design. can anyone prove otherwise?

play nice.

Puzzling over pre-humans

David Hester, Dallas, TX — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 22:18:40 GMT

It seems a little funny to me that out of all the different species on this planet Humans are the only species that has the ability to change its world. If Humans evolved from Apes why don't we have other species that have evolved in an intelligent manner as Humans have.

It's because Man was Created by GOD.

WE DID NOT COME FROM APES.

Puzzling over pre-humans

David Hester, Dallas, TX — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 22:22:07 GMT

If we evolved from Apes, what will we evolve into next.

Puzzling over pre-humans

DH — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 22:23:58 GMT

Hmm... Last time I checked, evolution was still a theory, which, according to the scientific method, is an idea, not a law. Any high school biology class should teach this first and foremost.
"Teaching superstition as fact is a terrible thing."-Hypatia of Alexandria
FTR- "scientists" of today, just as Darwin did, get PAID$$$ to write this load of dooky; as well as fundamentalist christian preachers who espouse their own brand of irrational nonsense.

Puzzling over pre-humans

christian — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 22:24:21 GMT

the creator will be here soon enough and all non-believers will perish please people listen to the so called bible thumpers they are not telling you so emphatically because of a political position, it's because they would like to save your soul, when it happens your mind will go racing back to statements like this you read throughout your life and then it will be too late ..........repent to lord before it is too late...please

Puzzling over pre-humans

Grant,Edmonton,Alberta — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 22:25:34 GMT

Evolution is a product of gods hands,just like the entire universe.Without evolution god would have constantly had to envolve himself in our world by adding changes,new species and anything he would see fit.The whole trouble with that is our universe is built on the matter of choice,without a choice the universe doesnt exist the way it does now,Choice is the fundamental principle of our universe.God doesnt intervene in life,hence why he put forth free will.God started life on earth with the intention to let evolution control the outcome,knowing that if things evolve sentient life is inevitable.Without choice life would be perfection,and then our lives would have no meaning,because the meaning to our lives is in the choices we make!And it is up to us to become perfect,god sure isnt going to do that for us!
My point being that everything exists because of god,this was gods vision,the imperfect world we live on.God started life in the simplest of forms,but from there evolution took over and did its job!

Puzzling over pre-humans

Disgusted in WI — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 22:26:42 GMT

I'm so disgusted that some of the religious talk on this board comes from WI! God did NOT talk to you. He has NOT done anything in 2000 years since before Jesus walked the Earth. What does that tell us? Well, let's see, he was all over the ancient world, talking to them, showing them visions, and now he's not talked to anyone, shown anyone visions, and has not been around since then.

If your brain needs to believe in something other than what you know (which by the way is by seeing and/or touching - faith is NOT knowledge), then believe that God created apes that have evolved according to His plan into modern day humans.

For those that claim the missing link as proof that modern day humans did not evolve from apes, what are you afraid of? Are you afraid that it makes you stupid? I'm not afraid of having evolved from anything. We are who we are today, and regardless of the way we came to be who we are today, I am glad to be here having an intelligent dialogue.

In closing, let's remember that the Bible is a book of stories from ancient humans. It was meant to provide law and direction in a much earlier time. It has a LOT of commonsense stuff today like (NOT verbatim, but in layman's terms) treating others the way you want to be treated, not cheating on your partner or cheating with another's partner, etc. These are parts of stories in the Bible that can make life better and civilized. All the other theological parts of the stories in the Bible are meant to keep the common person down, to keep them from thinking too much, and to keep religious businesses (churches) in business. Think for yourself, for a change.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Randy, Denver, CO — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 22:28:34 GMT

For those who wish to see evolution all you need to do is look at recent studies with wolves and breeding them for domestication and matings between different types of Baboons that are considered separate species. Feel free to lookit up.
Your insistance that your belief in the bible is adequate and does not require you to look any further for reality is mistaken at best and dangerous at worst. Like I was told my a baptist Minister when I was questioning my faith many years ago. "There are many truths in the bible but very few facts." please learn the difference, and for the poster who worries about me being fearful that they are teaching their children the bible, no worries on that part for I have taught my children critical thinking and thye have asked in their schools, when they were "exposed" to "creationism" as science why they were not also exposed to the theory of Eric von Dankin (-2 sp) When any of you can answer THAT I will allow your religion to be taught as science.

A FINAL note the "Theory" of Human evolution is still just a theory and always will be, the FACT of Evolution is proven and Evolution is no longer considered a theory by anyone except those Luddites who refuse to see the truth.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Lost in the gene pool — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 22:30:24 GMT

People...Our genes were manipulated by the Annunakies themselves. Just ask the Summaritians. Thats why we have the problem of the missing link. "I rather believe in UFO's and Aliens from outer space, than a super natural being that watches over me 24/7, answers my prayers and punishes me if I don't believe in his son, who is also supposed to be him" - myself, the freed human spirit.

Puzzling over pre-humans

The Source, Los Angeles, CA. — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 22:39:27 GMT

The reason we haven't found a missing link yet is because there isn't one. According to the first civilization on Earth, the Summerians, caveman were genetically altered by the Anunnaki "those who from heaven to earth came" to make mankind as we know it. They called the Anunnaki gods. They were the first to use the term god. So if you want to bring god to the topic I suggest you all educate yourselves on ancient Sumerian religion.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Spud, San Bernardino, Ca — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 22:40:05 GMT

If the evolutionary chain exists and we came from primates, why are there still primates?

Puzzling over pre-humans

Ben, Omaha, NE — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 22:40:16 GMT

All of these creationists out there. I am catholic and have been raised as such. I went to 6 years of catholic school and even I know that the bible is not to be taken as historically or scientifically accurate. Therefore, I do not believe in creationism and frankly I am saddened for those who are so pathetic as to follow so blindly as to disregard what science has told us. I believe whole heartedly in evolution, but believe it was guided by God.

Puzzling over pre-humans

j. wid--annapolis Md. — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 22:40:50 GMT

Let me see-I came from a ape--the apes are still here and do not appear to be evolving-some don't think the bible is correct--evolution has not been proven--if you think the bible is a fairy tale then where does that leave you--me, I'll take my chances with the bible

Puzzling over pre-humans

Ryan, Denver, CO — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 22:41:15 GMT

I don't see how this in anyway proves evolution. All of you out there who think creationism is just a myth should really take a look at all the facts of both sides before making a decision. This website, www.answersingenesis.org has a wealth of good information. There is just as much science behind creation as there is evolution. After all, how could something as intricate as a human cell come out of non-living material that just appeared one day billons and billons of years ago.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Tom, Fresno, CA — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 22:42:29 GMT

Live now and enjoy life, knowing that you are alive and enjoying what is known and real. Or, you can live scared, hoping to go to heaven, believe in a delusional faith. There's only one way to make sure that you'll go to heaven, and that is believe in all religions. Yet, I find that most if not all religions spread hate towards other religions. Ironic isn't it, join us or you'll go to hell, all you non-believers. Good words yea?, from the sons' and daughters of the all mighty (whatever god it may be.)

Puzzling over pre-humans

Rick, michigan — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 22:46:59 GMT

Unfortunately, this debate will never end, because too many people are spouting beliefs without the background knowledge to support their positions. No I don't mean "I done read about it and I know what I know." Take a physical anthropology course or two and you will understand how it is possible to determine gait based on pelvic and hip bones. (By the way, chimps walk semi-erect, not upright which is physically impossible for them.) Spend some time studying Bible history and you will be astonished by the changes in the message as the Church and inept translators have both evolved it to its current state. Just the Apochrypha alone is amazing (let's believe and accept these books, but ignore those.)For example, the original Genesis states that God created the world in 6 time periods, later translated as days, and He placed in Eden Atham (man) and Eva (woman.) This whole discussion reminds me of people who didn't watch the football game discussing what the coach did wrong.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Julia, New York, NY — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 22:49:26 GMT

If we're all so concerned with the debate about creationism v. evolution why don't we take the initiative to research it ourselves? And to those of you who have and do, props to you, you are the ones who have legitimate grounds to make comments here! I think for anyone who tries to make an argument on either side, had better be have a pretty solid understanding of the counterpoint. So here's an idea for all of us, try doing some research before we make ignorant comments, try reconciling this debate completely by making an effort to learn something ourselves.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Joshua Robinson, FL — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 22:53:10 GMT

Here's the thing, people believe from a biased point of view, anything and everything they are open and closed to. That's understandable since we all believe what we are told from the pulpit or from the professor's desk. But, how many of us have the desire, let alone the time, to truly do our own unbiased research. If you let the evidence speak for itself, it's amazing how complexity becomes simple. Unless you have a time machine to go back an witness the events of billions of years ago, you would be ignorant to proclaim an "absolute" truth. All you can do is take what evidence there is and come to the most logical conclusion possible. In my personal opinion, it takes just as much "faith" to believe that macro evolution is possible (it's never been observed) as it does for a higher intelligent being to create us. Do a little research on how complex even a single cell organism is and it will be beyond your comprehension. I don't want to draw any of my personal conclusions into this, but merely ask the question why and you'll be on the right track.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Robert- Phoenix, Arizona — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 22:59:26 GMT

Hypocrisy, fear, ignorance and denial-

Some of the same people typing on their computers and accessing the internet who readily accept that technology as well as thousands of others as a reality chose to deny the same scientific truths that contradict and challenge a particular set of mythological believes. The only common thread that binds all of the Worlds widely varying religious believes is science. 2+2=4 everywhere. Math, chemistry, physics, genetics, biology and geology all agree no matter what language or religious believe. Consider the possibility that fundamental truths and facts of these disciplines really represent the study and observation of God's Universe. People should look for the Catholic Church's recent statements regarding evolution. It seems that the United States and the majority of the Christian Fundamentalists contained within have the greatest case of "Creationism Heartburn". How can a nation of so many educated people get so grid locked on this issue. Fear of losing their religious compass or their religious crutch? I thought we stopped worshipping the weather God's hundreds and in some cases thousands of years ago.

I do believe, as stated earlier, that most people don't understand the evolution concept and are too close minded and afraid to try.

Today's religion is tomorrow's mythology.

Puzzling over pre-humans

t.s. benson — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 23:03:38 GMT

No matter what any of you say there is no evidence anywhere in the fossil record of a species change. Isn't that the true theory of evolution. Canninnes have always been cannines {dogs have always been dogs,} equines the same{ horses have always been horses.] Evolutionist are really just practicing the study of comparative and adaptive anatomy. And trying to pass it off as somthing that it is not. Sure there were dinasours and we really know very little about them, They were thought to be reptiles, well we still have reptiles no species change.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Robert - Phoenix, Arizona — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 23:07:15 GMT

"Also, sea shells and rocks that are formed under water are found on top of mountains which is evidence of The Flood."
Does anyone see a problem with this? Geology major, I think not.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Kellie, Tacoma WA — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 23:26:30 GMT

Ok - I know this has nothing to do with Lucy - but it's in the ballpark. My Dad once asked a Bible Thumper he worked with how he explains all the dinosaur remains that have been found, and well his answer was there was no room on the ark. There you go, mystery solved! By the way I’m going to see the Lucy exhibit this Friday and can’t wait!!!!

Puzzling over pre-humans

Adam, Brisbane, Australia — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 23:40:36 GMT

In the rush to defend evolution a vital point has been neglected - that no one can currently say if "Lucy" and her kin (Australopithecus afarensis) were ancestral to "Homo" (us) or not. It's a plausible hypothesis, one that has been defended by very able paleoanthropologists, but there's more than a few geographic and temporal gaps that a whole bunch of other ape species could be found in. Darwin knew the fossil record was incomplete and that's why he didn't predict (contrary to Creationist slander) any "transitional forms" between species would be found in abundance. Instead we find a few twigs from a great big bush of Life and try to figure out who is closer related to who as best we can.

Is "Lucy" our ancestral Mother? There is no way of knowing - all we can say, scientifically, is that she was definitely a relative, but her particular twig on the Tree might have gone extinct without progeny. Just like a regular family tree really.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Andy, Mesquite, TX — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 23:44:26 GMT

If we apply just a little common sense to what we see in the world, who can deny that humans have changed (evolved, and are probable still changing). Prior to about 500 years ago when the European explorers started moving humans around the globe much faster than before, with few exceptions, the further indigeneous (local) people were from the Equator, the lighter was their skin, hair and eye color. This was because, as humans migrated "out of Africa" to location further fron the Equator, they did not need as much protection from the sun's ultraviolet rays, and over many generations, slowly changed. Their bodies didn't need to focus as much on melatonin production and so focused on other changes. The only constant in the world is change. In my opinion, to deny this is to become extinct.

Puzzling over pre-humans

David Hester, Dallas, TX — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 23:45:13 GMT

Evolution = Made-up Facts
Creationism = Belief

And the Story continues

Puzzling over pre-humans

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 00:19:36 GMT

First, to the many who ask about current evolution, influenza.

Mary J, Denver CO, 10/6 1520 wrote, “To Jeff in San Diego - Why do you atomatically assume that people who don't believe in evolution don't understand it?” Jeff in San Diego, 10/6 1438 wrote, “Cliff, Jane, et. al, Just because you do not understand evolution does not mean it is false.” Jane, 10/6 1421, wrote, “Why haven't the apes of today evolved?” Cliff, 10/6 1414, wrote, “If evolution is a ‘fact’, why isn't aren't there animals, birds, etc. in transition?”
Not as an answer to Mary’s question, but as an explanation: There is no apparent automatic assumption on Jeff’s part that any person doesn’t believe in evolution doesn’t understand it. What is clear in the two individuals Jeff named is that they, indeed, as unique individuals, do not understand evolution. Similarly, if you’re entertaining a child and as an activity you’re making cake and as soon as you get the batter mixed in the bowl the child wants to ice it and serve it, it is clear that the child doesn’t understand about making cakes.

Same Mary J wrote, “To answer your question about who's to say evolution isn't God's way of creating...God, actually say's it in Genesis.” I’d be very interested in knowing just where in Genesis that is. If you really want to show how much you think you know you can prepare a little something on the ark as well, tell me the interior volume and then tell me the combined volume of two each (only) of all the extant species that would have had to have been on the ark to be extant. For combined volume I’ll let you heap them together, no room for food, no room to breathe, just their bodies and you trying to cram them into the ark.

And the last from the very same Mary J regarding rants: The point Cee G was making was that the same rant is used in just about any circumstance, having no specific relevance to whatever topic is at hand. A fervent, non-sequitur discourse is pretty much the definition of rant. This, not the fact that they don’t agree, is it’s rantiness. Add to that the small, insignificant fact that most of the ranters don’t have the first clue what their Bibles mean and it becomes an unintelligent, fervent, non-sequitur discourse. This makes it annoying. The fact that so many people do it leads to the comment about coming out of the woodwork. This is to be taken figuratively, nobody thinks they actually crawl out from woodwork. That would just be silly.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Lance, Newnan, GA — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 00:36:15 GMT

The bible is a bunch of stories about people, places and events. Some of the events are supported by evidence and some are not but there is not one shred of evidence to support that any miracle ever occurred or that anything in the bible was ever influenced by anyone other that another human being.

The people that study evolution search for evidence. Each piece of evidence leads to another assumption that will some day be refuted or supported by another piece of evidence. When Darwin first proposed his theory there were huge gaps in the evolutionary tree. Now the gaps are very small. In time they will grow even smaller. The proof is being discovered every day.

The bible is a large book. I have seen several that are over 1000 pages. Each page is full of stories and examples of how others conducted their lives and how we should conduct our lives.

Currently there is enough documented evidence supporting evolution, not stories but evidence, to fill a book of over 1000 pages for every 1 page in the bible. This mountain of evidence is growing by the minute.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Jason, Pensacola, Florida — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 01:30:11 GMT

It's adorable how there can be people who don't believe in evolution when it's right in front of us. Not millions of years ago, or in fossil records, but NOW.

The emergence of antibiotic-resistance bacteria since the widespread use of antibiotics may not be as impressive as humans descending from Lucy-like primates, but it's just as much evolution.

To reject evolution is to reject the entire germ theory of pathology (which, LOL, is also technically a theory, but you'll be hard-pressed to find many scientists who disagree with THAT one).

Puzzling over pre-humans

dave — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 01:41:18 GMT

Apes DNA is so similar to ours.. there is a link regarding DNA! And I believe u can still believe in god and believe in evolution. Its amazing that we could all be related to Lucy. I like the thought of that.. shows the world is more family than foe.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Ed Jarrett — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 01:44:34 GMT

Wow! The bias!
God stuff is "religious."
Evolution is even more faith-based but considered science.

Neither "faith" is observable, testable, repeatable.
Yet the belief in no God is considered unbiased.
(May we note that our "scientific" man-theories continue to change, yet the Bible remains solidly rooted for thousands of years?)

Puzzling over pre-humans

Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 01:58:27 GMT

For all of you mixing up religion with this science..my advice to you is to become religilous
www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fCPtvb2x1M

Ben, Omaha.."I do not believe in creationism and frankly I am saddened for those who are so pathetic as to follow so blindly as to disregard what science has told us. I believe whole heartedly in evolution, but believe it was guided by God."

That too is a crock. You are no better off than the creationist in your belief system. For one thing you have this view of science as real but it is a sure bet that there is no science indicating the existence of an intelligence outside our experience and directing nature and all those things on earth or anywhere else. You too are deluded by all those years in church !

Puzzling over pre-humans

Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 02:02:49 GMT

Oh and Ben, evolution proceeds exclusively on it's own,touching every living thing that exists or that has ever existed in the history of the earth...outside of and independent of any governing God because the requirements of evolution go beyond what would be expected of a sentient God.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 02:17:14 GMT

Sharta, Chico CA, 10/6 1744, wrote, “Clearly, there was no creation as it is typically referenced, but just maybe, there was some form of intelligent design.” There is creation “as it is typically referenced” and there is creation as stated in the Bible. The typical references are additions to what the Bible says in an attempt to explain what it means and how it was done. But those are not biblical things. There’s nothing wrong with taking a purely biblical stance on creation.

Erica J., Hickory, NC, 10/6 1756, wrote, “God is the only one capable of miracles and made the earth look and seem as if it was older that it really is.” Do you think that he wasn’t able to spend the time he wanted it to seem like or do you suppose he just likes to lie?

Ryan, Denver, CO, 10/6 1841 wrote, “I don't see how this in anyway proves evolution.” Brilliant observation. Really it doesn’t. Perhaps every species that ever was was created at the time of Genesis. It just so happens that only some select few species’ remains were able to ossify at any given point in time. So the fossil record only records which varieties of that really vast selection of animals were turning to stone at that particular time in those particular conditions. Maybe it was different levels of oxygen or methane in the air that allowed specific types to fossilize. They were all there all along but they reacted differently to the atmospheric conditions. What we consider simpler animals were able to ossify during the earlier conditions but those conditions precluded the “more complex” ones from doing so, they just rotted away. But when conditions changed ever so slightly those simple creatures started rotting away and the slightly more complex ones ossified. As conditions continued to change, ever so slightly over time, ever so slightly more advanced looking creatures were fossilized while the more simple ones rotted away and eventually went extinct. Like I said, you’re full of, …, well, brilliant observations.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Bob Holder, Aurora, IL — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 02:26:08 GMT

Evolution cannot be true because things do not appear out of nothing and progress in an upward order of complexity. Existence must have a creation and as we have observed, eveything decays over time from order to chaos, not the other way around (entropy). It is absurd to think that over billions of years literally trillions of genetic "mistakes" (that coincidentally were beneficial) permitted millions of species to rise out of a single primordial cell. A fool's faith. Yes, Evolution is a religion. The real reason people believe in evolution is not because it makes sense, far from it. Rather because it provides a (flimsy) way to deny God. If we admit God created everything, then that means He calls the shots and we are accountable to Him. That's what mankind can't stand and will go to any ludicrous length to avoid it. That is why the Bible says that the creation has put god clearly on display, "but mankind did not want to honor Him as God and became futile in their speculations and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise they became fools..." Rom 1: 21

Puzzling over pre-humans

Andrea Houston, TX — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 02:52:10 GMT

If evolution is a "fact", why isn't aren't there animals, birds, etc. in transition? Don't try to tell me that the transition is complete. Only a dumbell would believe that one! Evolution is pure bunk. Maybe YOU came from a monkey, but I didn't!
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The transition is not complete. You have to understand that transition takes thousands and millions of years for any time of change to be seen. Remember, it took 3 million years to get from Lucy to us. So, birds, animals, etc. ARE in transition right now, but it is moving so slowly that we cannot see it in our lifetime. Only in fast-reproducing species like bacteria can we really see evolution in action.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Jeff, Kansas City — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 03:42:17 GMT

One thing that I have noticed from reading the "B-I-B-L-E" is that the writings themselves are created over time, a lot of time, and the book itself has evolved from one version to another. Old Testament, versus New Testament, whatever you want to hear or believe in is written in there to please the religion. In a few thousand years, Scientology is going to be a full fledged competing religion! BTW nobody ever said the bones were of male or female origin, Lucy is just a song playing when they found it I believe.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Karen Flanery , Cheyenne, WY — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 03:51:57 GMT

The Bible is a wonderful book and full of facts, both historical and sociological. It teaches us how to live. If you really read it and pay attention, you will then begin to understand that science and religion are not opposing one another. One proves the other, as archeologists digging in Egypt are discovering in the case of the Exodus. Creationists and dogmatic fundamentalists limit their God to what they can understand. They put human rules and emotions and intentions to God and He=She is more than that. More than anything anyone can possibly imagine -- do not limit or pretend to know the mind of God! Evolution is all around us, proven time and time and time again. One can subscribe to Evolution and still be a God loving, Christ loving child. God gave us brains. Use them! Lucy might not be our grandmother but she is a cousin eons removed. She is a primate. I am a primate. Was she human? Perhaps, that will be proven. I am human, Can my strain evolve more? I hope so!!!!

Puzzling over pre-humans

Eamonn, Albany, New York — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 03:57:16 GMT

What stands out for me, reading the creationist postings, is how anti-science they are. Really, they would have us living in mud huts and do away with book learnin' unless the Bible is the only book. The Bible does make for very strange reading indeed. Try it! It baffles me how people can continue to believe things when even common sense must be saying to them 'c'mon do don't really think god smited the Egyptians by drowning them and only them, because he was ticked off with them messing around with his earthly buddies?' et cetera, et cetera. See also, gigantic boats, how to help your army win by holding your arms out, ladders into the sky, the persecution of poor old Jonah, St. Paul's enlightened thoughts on gender equality, endless fatted calfs, golden images, the list is endless. Honestly, the scientific process is one of the few redeeming features of our species (aside from music and good literature).

Puzzling over pre-humans

Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 04:44:32 GMT

[Some people] are guided by a logic and delusion that renders the idea of humans being related to primates as abhorrent...They cling to the idea humans are a pure creation apart from dirty, sub-human "apes", clean in every respect because God just wouldn't have it any other way...Also they are guided by ridiculous quotes from the bible such as.. "but mankind did not want to honor Him as God and became futile in their speculations and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise they became fools..."

Pure foolishness indeed. For one thing, the quote is in the past tense and for another, mankind has very well become wise and continues to be even wiser..without any honouring of a supposed Him.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Oliver James, LkHavasu City, Az — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 06:07:47 GMT

Cheers, Lucy. The Bible was written by men to control mankind. All writings in any religion are from men. Refer to the science of "Palin-tology", which is the study of idiots, especially in politics.
The second coming, will no doubt be an asteroid.

I marvel at science, and the abilities of the scientific mind. We are so blessed to have "evolved" into humans with minds that have the ability to think for "themselves". Science does a wonder job to help eliminate the "fantasy world" that envelopes blind faith "reliogio-palin-tological-leming-contradictions of things more factual".

Think for yourselves, and enjoy life, without fear.

Puzzling over pre-humans

JD, Potsdam, Germany — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 08:46:54 GMT

In response to Jason Cooper. Actually, the bones that comprise Lucy were found in a very small area, a few meters square, that were eroding out of a small sand body. While other fossils of Lucy's species are found in other parts of Ethiopia, rest assure that Lucy IS one individual from one very small area.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Joseph Yates — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 09:53:13 GMT

I keep seeing creationists ask "where are all the transitional species"? The answer is quite simple. ALL species are transitional.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Brad, Brandon, Florida — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 11:14:13 GMT

Given this topic is about pre-humans, I do not see where the discussion about religion and creationism is on topic. Since it has been brought up as opinion to this post, I view the rest of my post as fair game.

For some religion is a crutch… A means to control others through a man made social structure. Religion creates a society of haves and have nots. It is an engine in which some use for monetary or political gain. Viruses and religion are the two leading historical causes of large scale death for us as a whole. Those who claim righteousness are often among the worst offenders. This is why I firmly believe that religion has no place in science or for that matter politics.

On the flip side of this, I do feel that religion does have its place in our society. Its place is in the home, hearth, and the heart. It should provide us a guide in to which we live our lives, but should not at any time lock us in to some narrowly defined role or limit our potential as desired by another. It should preach peace, tolerance, and openness.

I like to think the big guy upstairs has a great sense of humor. The irony in this is that as more religious many become the less sense of humor they have. Then again the born again types are in a category all to themselves.

Personally, I find the whole topic regarding Lucy fascinating. The questions and possible answers raised by Lucy’s remains are only limited by your imagination. Maybe Lucy’s only purpose is to offend insecure people by telling that their mothers descended from an ‘ape’.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Wraith Ascendant Houston, Texas — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 11:52:16 GMT

Why is it no one suggests the middle ground? It need not be just evolution or creation. Is people's creativity so stifled that they see no possible blending of a created thing evolving? Perhaps that is not how your god works? Or do you curse your god with the same limits and lacks that you yourself have?

Puzzling over pre-humans

Richard B. Smith, Hessel MIchigan — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 12:15:02 GMT

Hi... I believe... "God made the world in six days flat, and on the seventh he rested... then he gave it a spin, just too set it afloat because he wanted to dry-run test it... so he let billions and billions of years go by till he looked out at the hopeless glob... and he sighed "aw well, it sure went to hell, but it was only a six day job"

Puzzling over pre-humans

Edith Meyers — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 12:43:52 GMT

I am puzzled by one thing. In a human, the hair on our heads can grow indefinately. Women and Men can get very long hair and we must get it cut.

However, in the hominoids, apes, monkeys etc - the hair on their heads tends to grow briefly and stop with a short crop. Why the difference?

Puzzling over pre-humans

red — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 12:45:21 GMT

Apes have 24 pairs of chromosomes and humans have 23 pairs: how many did Lucy have? if she had 24 she is in the ape family. Can a species give birth to viable offspring that it is genetically incompatible with?

Puzzling over pre-humans

Jay, Boone, NC — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 13:05:53 GMT

If we came from monkeys then why are there still monkeys? Well that's kind of like asking if land based animals came from the ocean then why are there still fish? Science is supposed to be based on observation of reality. Maybe there are many things which fall outside our ability to observe. But just because one is religious doesn't mean one shouldn't read a little. Most people believe that there is such a thing as gravity and the theories of gravitation of Newton or Einstein, which are both wrong up to a certain point, but people say the theory of evolution is "just a theory". I think most people like putting things into boxes and calling them clear partitions etc. but don't get angry when something falls outside of your box when you chose the box to put yourself in. It is possible that current theories of evolution are slightly wrong or entirely wrong, it's also possible that there is no God, I can say that as a person who believes that there is.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Soylent Green — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 13:25:22 GMT

after reading all these rants all i can say is.... WOW

Puzzling over pre-humans

Paul Germaine, Mawah, NJ — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 13:46:20 GMT

Both creationism and evolutionism are two belief systems. Evolution was never tested, was never proved, it is all a bunch of missing links missing forever. Creationism is an expression of our ignorance concerning a phenomenon we cannot explain today. Life can only be explained through the "miracles" of quantum physics. Both creationism and evolutionism leave the spiritual aspect of man out of the equation. Same as Buddhism, quantum physics reveals the spiritual dimension of life. Reality is spiritual revealed in the material. The problem with creationism is that people have been brainwashed from an early age to believe in a god made in our priests image. That resulted eventually into a blind dive into scientific materialism that leads us to nowhere. Evolution does not explain consciousness, and that is the least of its problems. Creationism and religion in general prohibits man from seeking the truth. We as a human civilization need to change the way we look at reality, we have to evolve in the way we understand it. For that to happen we have to brake the chains of evolutionist and creationist thinking. Life is billions of years old and cyclic and, yes, there is something out there, the Source of everything there is misrepresented in our churches as some kind of erratic, vengeful, egotistic and ignorant god.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Matthew, Kwangju, Korea — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 13:47:20 GMT

I think it is obvious that some sort of evolution, occurring over a vast period of time has occurred but whether or not this validates the current timeline of evolutionary theorists and the Lucy find is another question entirely. Because these bones were found on the surface, most dating methods are horribly inaccurate in dealing with them. Finds occurring below the soil, where less of the elements (oxygen particularly)can change the chemical composition of the bones can be more accurately dated. The theroy that Lucy is a human ancestor and comprises the "missing link" in our evolution is based, therefore, on taphonomic evidence i.e. inductions based on where the bones are located and the presumed age of the strata in which they are found. The problem that arises here is that since the bones were mostly on the surface, they were also subject to being moved, and more than one scientific critic of the find has pointed out that this area has so many different types of animal, primate and other misc. remains scattered about, that it is impossible to even prove that they are from the same hominid. Furthermore, without such clear causal links between the find and subsequent evolutionary history, they simply used the theory to prove the evidence, i.e. accepted a dubious find because it fit neatly into the existing theoretical (and I must stress the word theroewtical here) time framework they have been using to chart out evolution and it conveniently filled in the gap, even if on flimsy evidence. If you further take the findings of far more ancient homo sapiens that don't fit into the time frame (and their are many), the whole Lucy find is, like the Piltdown Man, merely a case of trying to keep a theory alive that was decided on in the first 50 years since Darwin published his findings, when they did not have the more sophisticated of modern paleoanthropology at their disposal. Lucy is an article of faith for orthodox evolutionists, like the resurrection is for Christians, so while I concur that evolution undeniably occurred, we have to reexamine the current theory and not merely believe every finding that supports prevailing opinions in science.

Puzzling over pre-humans

jamy, kingston , on — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 13:55:45 GMT

creationists, I agree with the person who stated " it doesn't say in the bible that the earth was created in 7 earth days" a day to us is one revolution of the earth, a year is one revolution of OUR planet around OUR star (the sun)... If he was in the process of creating the earth an earth day did not exist yet so who knows what He considered a "day" at the time, (if you believe in creationism. And if you are to take the Bible literally then you must believe in the flood, the problem with that is that there would be one massive layer of sediment over the entire earth that geologists and other scientists would be able to clearly see consistantly (while digging for those pesky dinosaur bones that you just cant explain away). and as we all know..... NO SUCH LAYER OF SEDIMENT EXISTS! lets also remember that the church (the voice of god on earth) used to hold the belief that the earth was FLAT and to say otherwise was blasphemy. Seems to me like putting your beliefs soley in a book and an organization that clearly has been wrong in the past vs tangible in your face i can see it touch it, smell it science seems odd.

To differentiate between ADAPTATION and EVOLUTION is also just blurring things further, a series of ADAPTATIONS is the process of evolution, a species adapts and adapts and adapts until it is no longer the same species it started out as.

Also, yes another point... to say something foolish like "if we evolved from monkeys how come there are still monkeys today and they are not evolving" is looking at a small picture. We evolved from a specific primate or group of primates who lived in a certain geographical region on earth that was experiencing specific conditions that either required or allowed for us to adapt / evolve, these conditions didn't necessarily exist where other primates were located, therefore not requiring them to adapt / evolve in the same way.

As for Jim from La Mirada , your comment " Evolution as a species evolving into a more complex species would require the addition of genetic material - something that has never been observed nor a mechanism to suggest it's even possible." how do you think humans are born with hereditary or genetic predispositions to things? its not just a matter of the ADDITION of new genetic material, it is also about the MUTATION or changing of existing genetic material.

I am an Athiest / evolutionists but i never like to speak in absolutes and neither should anybody else because you are destined to be proven wrong, have your personal belief in how things are but dont necessarily discredit other ideas, who knows..... maybe evolutionists and creationist are BOTH wrong, maybe there is no missing link because like some people believe, perhaps we are the result of alien colonization and we are just the decendants of them.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Kyle, Hartwell, Georgia — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 14:09:20 GMT

I'm extremely surprised at the ignorance displayed in these comments. The United States needs to do a better job of teaching science.

For instance, I am STILL seeing "it's a theory, not a law." That is true, but the person saying it doesn't understand what a "theory" is in the context of the scientific method. The idea that germs make you sick is a THEORY, but I don't see a large group of religulous people denying it (not in this century, anyway... the last century might be a different story).

Puzzling over pre-humans

Jeff CA — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 14:11:00 GMT

I agree "Disalussioned". The Bible has been changed by leaders in the church over the past years. The thing people don't realize is that "church" doesn't necessarily mean Christian. A lot of people enjoy the power so they play Christian. That's why I laugh when people talk about corruption in the church. The church is not corrupt, it's man. explain morals, feelings of regret, and a state of concience because of evolution.

Puzzling over pre-humans

TC FLA — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 14:14:41 GMT

Sorry Marsha, the Canis Lupis theory was a direct result of man. It had nothing to do with Natural Selection, so you can forget evolution with that one.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Matt M., Minneapolis, MN — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 14:17:33 GMT

Honestly, I think some of my friends are direct descendents of Lucy! In fact, I'm almost certain!

For those of you who are arguing for creationism and against evolution -- take a biology class, please. To argue that evolution "denies God" is absurd. You are pretending to know the Creator's will and design for this universe! Perhaps God had in mind evolution when the universe was created? Perhaps God has nothing to do with it at all? I don't know. Nor do you! What I do know is that thousands of scientists have worked diligently for many years to establish that yes, life on this planet has evolved from more primitive to more advanced forms. Mutations in DNA don't always result in a favorable outcome. There were many "fatal" errors. However, maybe one in a million or one in a billion mutations improves the characteristics of a protein enough to result in a performance advantage. This process multiplied billions of times over several billion years is what we now call evolution. It is a matter of probability.

Thankfully there are people out there who are dedicated to finding the truth and to bringing humankind out of the dark ages of demonizing, magic, witch burning and blind faith!

Puzzling over pre-humans

Jim KY — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 14:20:43 GMT

I guess we're gonna get to hear how BIGFOOT is the missing link now..lol.. There is no missing link. There's no link just individual species that go extinct or crossbreed. If we did not record history right now and polar bears went extinct, would scientist 1000 years from now say that is was a transition animal if two other species shared it's traits. Yes they would because they want to see it and will find any excuse.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Josh Engle — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 14:30:23 GMT

It is habitual bipedalism that lead to our intelligence not just standing upright for a little while. And the theory isn't that we came from modern apes it is that we came from the same ancestor whose line split in many directions. Its all predicated on who has the traits to live long enough to pass their genes along. A simple mutation that prooves to make one successful will be passed on to more generations.
Evolution occurs slowly. The missing link is a moot point. Homo Erectus didn't have a child that was suddenly human. Mutations gradated over the years to become human. Thats why you will never see that clear line. What you have to look at are trends.
We see this transition on a macro scale wuth the increasing valgus angle, the angle of our legs, that allows for steadier walking. Also, as brains got larger so did the cranium vault. Along with this, we see the sagital crest, where chewing muscles are attatched to the scull, decrease in size to allow for a larger brain. The foramen magmum, that is the link between our skull and spine, gradually took on a ninety degree angle to allow for a bipedal form to look forward. All this is evident tracing through Australopithicus, Homo Habilus, Homo Erectus etc... over 3 million years. This is backed by DNA and direct chronological indicators such as argon-argon dating and potasium-argon dating. This is science. It is self correcting and non-assuming. You cannot assume anything, it will make you blind and bias. Read as many books and articles as you can and form your own opinion. Don't just believe something because it tradition, what your father believed, whats acceptable in your home town, or worse what makes you happy and stoic. We use a plethora of sources not just one. If you're going to enter into an argument do your research, understand the topic.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Dr. Frank N. Stein, Ph.D., Chiago, Ilinois — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 14:31:29 GMT

Geez! I'd thought we came out of the Dark Ages some time ago! With all the Bible thumpers out there arguing against evolution, one would think it is still 1100 A.D. Seriously, if I remember correctly from my Old Testament class at the University and my previous Bible studies, the Bible was written by MEN, not GOD. Oh wait, they were just vessels communicating the word of God, right? So God talked directly to these men? Plenty of people in institutions and prisons today communicate directly with God, too...Get real, folks!

I am thankful for the efforts of these brilliant men and women who have made it possible for me and millions of others to know a little piece of the truth about our amazing planet and lift us out of ignorance!

Puzzling over pre-humans

Nash, Texas — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 14:33:47 GMT

Why can't we consider Australopithecus and Homo Sapiens, to be addition members of the Great Ape family. This debate is similar to the pluto (planet or not) debate. in the great scheme of things the argument is over a label.
What all agree on is that Australopithecus did once walk on Earth,- had certain 'Ape'and 'Human' features, and we evolved from, if not Lucy, than a cousin of Lucy.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Hunter, Jacksonville Fl — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 14:33:50 GMT

Here's a thought about evolution taking place right now. And for the sake of making the point, I must admit I take a few liberties...
If you could cut the world's population into two groups. The believers in religion and the believers in science. Then look at the groups and their transformations throughout time. One group has tried to push the envelope of science almost exclusively while the other is responsible for more human lives lost than any other single factor in history(except for mortality of course). One says the more we know, the better we can make this planet for ourselves and the more we can come to understand, the better we'll be at trying to overcome obstacles that are lying just around the bend. The other seems to almost think that we know enough and as long as we just sit at home without lying, cheating and stealing, it will all just sort itself out.
Gina from Tampa kind of makes my point with "my kids are studying their bibles, and their kids will study their bibles, and so on." Tell them to study math and science and actually help out.
So then you have (and again I'm generalizing)logical and rational thinkers procreating on one side and you have ridiculous believers in myth on the other. The human mind needed a way of dealing with death when there was little to no understanding of life. Now that we know more and more everyday about life and the world around us, the need for a blanket of comfort is less. The part of the population that still clings to this will become less advanced over time than the group that tests the world and draws conclusions from the results.
It wouldn't take long at all to show this if you caould split the two and have no communication between them. I don't think it would be a stretch of the mind to imagine one group continuing to push the scientific frontier while the other just simply dissolves.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Thomas KY — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 14:34:09 GMT

Adaptation I believe in. Evolution, I do not. There's not enough science to prove it. Too many ifs. Only speculation. I find that the more you want to believe in something, the easier it is to find proof. No one on either side tries to look at this unbiased. So the debate will never be settled.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Glen Burnie, everywhere — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 14:38:00 GMT

we havn't evolved as much as we have DEVOLVED. we couldn't create the great pyramids (in egypt or south and central america) again if we tried.

Puzzling over pre-humans

OfficerB, Michigan — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 14:42:13 GMT

Let us not forget that all disciplines of science have made major corrections to what is "fact" on intervals of about 100 - 150 years. Since the early 1900's, these corrections are made on the scale of decades or less because our scientific techniques are improving. One thing however has not changed: Human arrogance. We are scientific neophytes - we've seen a glimmer of what there is to know and call ourselves learned. Some discount others for their belief in what isn't physically tangible as ignorant to "facts". When doing so, remember how little we really KNOW when speaking of our command of science.

Puzzling over pre-humans

jimi hodesh, savannah, ga — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 14:42:22 GMT

jesus had "divine powers" because he was a human/alien hybrid implanted in mary after she was abducted. this sounds just as plausable as he was god in man's form born from a virgin. what does joseph have to say about all of this?

Puzzling over pre-humans

Mark Sharp, Pasadena Texas — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 14:51:06 GMT

Gee.....
I love it when the followers of the funny hat and robes guys argue and bicker with the followers of the guys with PhD's and labcoats. They have soo much in common in that neither group has seemed to have completely grapsed the concept of thinking for one's self and yet both claim they are and bicker sooo much.
It's rather like how I would imagine watching a pot and a kettle argue about which was black.

Puzzling over pre-humans

KB — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 15:21:10 GMT

I can believe in evolution with intelligent design but pure creationism....no way. For those who have said they believe only the word of God and not man...did MAN not "transcribe" the Word. The Bible that you read and believe literally was written by Man. God's Word, perhaps. Anything written incorrectly, out of context, etc...of course as we know that Man is NOT perfect.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Rick, michigan — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 15:32:49 GMT

OK, to help us understand your position, creationists, first you must explain what/who God is. You all seem to feel He is some bearded old dude in a robe who sits on a cloud and tells us what to do, or else! Someone has seen too many cartoons. Where does the Bible state that He is such a thing? And don't try that "created in His image" reference; biblical scholars agree that means that man was created pure and good, like God, until the Fall in Eden, allegorically speaking. So could it be that God is an essence, an energy, the whole of existence, rather than some concrete entity? After all, God is within us all, right? Then couldn't He, this all-encompassing oneness, be guiding the process of evolution, of adaptation, of life? If the interpretation, and even the wording of the Bible and other holy books has changed over the centuries (and only an illiterate fool could deny that), then couldn't organisms be changing over hundreds and thousands of millennia? After all, the Bible just states that during a time period (currently translated as "day")God created the beasts, etc. That doesn't have to mean created fully formed and unchanging in one instantaneous zap. Whether it took a few hours, or a few billion years, God (whatever/whoever that may be) could be said to have created life. So, everyone is correct. Or at least everyone who can open their narrow little minds (and I am speaking of those on both sides of the debate) enough to contemplate an alternate view of the same beliefs they held. Case closed, let's all be friends, and find something useful to discuss.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 15:56:13 GMT

Thomas Ashby,
Regarding your posts about 10/6 2000, I agree that quite a bit of peoples ideas about God, creation and evolution are a crock. What do you think would be expected by a sentient god?
I know a lot of people who think God cares whether they get a red car or a blue one. I think God doesn't care whether or not you're suffering but how your character is and how you conduct yourself in whatever situation you're in. I believe in creation by God. That is his setting up of governing natural laws and kicking things off for physical stuff, and then the creation of life at it's time. After that I think it was essentially a hands of kind of approach and evolution proceeded in accordance with the natural laws he set up.
What are the kinds of things you would expect of a sentient God? (Not a trap, I just really don't know what you mean.) (That's not to say there won't be some idiot who will try to harangue you.)

Puzzling over pre-humans

Faye McKenna — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 16:05:37 GMT

I thought to be fosselized the body had to be in water. So either she ran to the water to escape her attacker or died from her wounds there. To know that alot of members were there, tells me it had to be a flash flood or something of that nature, and living around water to be left in water when the flood past.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Captain Obvious — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 16:15:40 GMT

ET's are the missing link. And people are either to dumb to understand it or to scared to accept it.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Bill Kruse, Plainfield, N.J. — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 17:30:00 GMT

The fundemental teachings of the Bible, faith, hope love and charity are so overwhelmingly potent it seems disruptive to the good purposes that evolve from these teachings to bog ourselves down in the debate over evolution,; the age of the earth, et al.
You want to believe 6,000 years; Wonderful. You over there, you want to believe 6 Billion; Splendid. What God will judge us on is not these convictions, rather; if we held the hand of someone in pain, shared some worldly possessions with the needy, and did our best to keep our families united during the inevitable tribulations which arise.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Jerry m. Weikle Newport News — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 17:41:31 GMT

To Dave Johnson, Cambridge, Minn.

You are incorrect in stating that the "Bible" is the oldest written work.

Since the beginning of time mankind has made up epic fantasy stories in the form of myths to reflect his role in the universe. The oldest piece of written work is the Epic of Gilgamesh. It was inscribed on stone tablets, in the 7th Century BCE, and the Bible was written in the 3rd or 2nd Centure BCE. This was a thousand years before the Iliad was written and it is in the genre of epic fantasy. Since this piece was written many more have followed.

The conflict is because people think that the Bible was written sometime after the 4004 B.C creation date, like around the time of Moses and the Exodus. Cuniform tablets may have existed, as the 10 commandments were alleidely writen on stone--but writing was more for keeping record of exchange in the markets.

Check the historical references on the web and wikipedia.

Puzzling over pre-humans

ET,Miami, FL — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 17:52:41 GMT

life is God. life in evey single creature and living thing is God.Even in a one cell organism.It's possible to have evolution and God in the same place you just have to be open minded and not take the bible as the only truth.Nothing says higher power than the creation of the universe(The Big Bang) the universe (everything created out of nothing). You dont have to bealive in what you are taught bealive in what you feel and see.There is space for coexixtance.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Doug in Bethlehem — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 18:05:52 GMT

How sad that there are still so many creationist kooks out there who are content to take the lazy route of relying on that collection of fairy tales (ie- the bible) than being curious about the universe surrounding them. How hypocrytical that those same holier-than-thou people are happy to have their lives saveed by medicines developed through, you guessed it, manipulating the evolution of microbes.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Carlton, Kamuela, Hawaii — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 18:23:44 GMT

"IMAGE OF GOD"
There are different definitions for "image" and the original Biblical writings or stories may not have even used the word "image". THEREFORE, the referenced Biblical statement can have many meanings and indiviuals, where free speech and thinking are allowed, are free to choose the meanings that satisfy themselves to help their arguments. HOWEVER, it is just wrong to try to prove the Bible says God looks like us or we look like God, especially if one holds to the Bible being true.
Surely, one may appropriate the word "image" to say male and female have the same image (or "he's the 'image' of his daddy"), but one is immediately seen as running into trouble if the finer details are examined. "IMAGE", also has a definition as "counterfeit" and how about when we say "he was the image of frustration". How about "graven images"? Humans in God's image, therefore, is not a clear way of putting things and may even be highly deceptive. Do believers think their God wrote a deceptive or muddied Bible? Our interpretation causes the "muddying"; hence, it is easy to understand why such muddying can put off others. (The fact that the ancients had the "image" of God as male, bearded etc. shows the problems with "image" unless one is a male chauvanist. Perhaps there will never be a female Pope because of this "image" problem.) RATHER than say "God created humans in the 'image' of God" and try to ram that down the throat of unbelievers with a different idea of "image", one might make more progress with understanding by saying "Our universe and its people have love, an understanding of infinity (from mathematics), goodness, etc. all attributes belonging to an infinite God who has allowed us to have and share such common attributes seen in our universe".

Puzzling over pre-humans

Tom Conner, Mill Valey, CA — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 18:28:39 GMT

There is nothing mystical or magical about evolution. As a rough analogy, living beings are shaped by external forces in a similar manner to how mountain ranges are. It is the genetic code that allows for minute variations that can be passed from one generation to the next. If you are better suited to survive, you and your progeny make more progeny (all carrying a fairly faithful reproduction of the parents' genes) than those less well suited. There is no law of constantly increasing complexity. The world is filled with organisms that have remained largely unchanged for billions of years simply because they are well adapted to their environment, and that environment or the external pressures on them haven't changed significantly enough over time to put them at a disadvantage - they are successful at living long enough to make genetic copies of themselves. Only when complexity equals competitive advantage in an environment will complexity on a large scale occur. But as we observe in the natural world, many organisms do not live in static environments (certainly not over geological time-scales), external pressures and competition for resources are like the wind and rain that wear down mountains over time. In a mountain, sections are worn down slowly, tiny pieces at a time, and some bits fall off suddenly crashing to the foot of the mountain, all while crustal collisions are pushing it upwards, leaving the shape and design you see at any given time. No one would argue that a mountain has reached it's final form at the instant you observe it. Natural processes will keep working on it today, tomorrow and long after we are here. The same goes for organisms in nature. The difference is that living creatures and their genetic code are much more dynamic than mountain ranges - they can and do introduce variation at the same time that external forces press down. They can and do physically move from one environment to another. Organisms do not 'will' to change any more than a mountain does, it happens when the conditions dictate - they either die or survive to reproduce.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Keith Black, Dallas, TX — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 18:47:05 GMT

Guess 13 to 17 was all the saucer could hold?

Puzzling over pre-humans

Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 18:51:13 GMT

Tim Rommes..we can't discuss this at all simply because of your belief system. It's too bad that everytime Alan posts anything to do with evolution, the religious minded have to make it into something it's not and not meant to be ... religious or actually religilous.

It was the great geologist Charles Lyell ... www.victorianweb.org/science/lyell.html
... who tore down the impossible belief system of the Judeo-Christian conscience concerning earth history and laid the groundwork for putting together the true reality of our existence.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Brandi, Clarksville, TN — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 18:54:20 GMT

James, you say there are holes in science, but aren't there holes in the Bible?

;o Just a thought.
I myself think Lucy to be amazing.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Rick, michigan — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 19:42:10 GMT

It has been conjectured that the neanderthals died out due to a lack of imagination, and therefore the ability to adapt to changes. Perhaps they didn't die out; they became creationists;-) Hey folks, just kidding, injecting a little levity. But it does appear that the inability of pre-humans to adapt to changes in their world led to extinction of their species, and those who could learn survived long enough to evolve into higher forms. Let's not let the less enlightened humans push H. sapiens down the path of extinction. Whatever the truth may be, let's all keep searching to define and refine our understanding of it. Since neither camp is 100% right.

Puzzling over pre-humans

MC — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 20:31:50 GMT

I feel anyone cosidering evolution as a fact needs to do more research on the subject.

I for one know I was not an accident.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Brian, Florida — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 21:52:53 GMT

"The people who are referencing an incomplete match in DNA between humans and apes are failing to mention that while our DNA isn't identical, it is a 97 percent match." Are you aware, Paul from Massachusetts, that our DNA also is a 60 percent match with dogs? And I'm sure the evolutionists would never admit that human DNA is a 40 percent match with bananas. That's a fact. Look it up.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Timmy Two Moons — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 21:56:00 GMT

Wow, I feel so bad for this country. The ignorance that the bible bangers suffer under is truly shameful. How can someone be so damn wrong and so certain they are right at the same time? If the bible were true, then everything in your world is a lie. If you truly believe that the scientific method is faulty and that all the evidence to the contrary is a lie, quit being a hypocrite and give up all the lies that the scientific method has created in your life. Give up your car, your phone, your home, your computer, your watch, your medicine, your clothes, your shampoo, your television, your printed books, your photographs, your sources of news, clean water, clean air, stay off the sidewalks and the roads, the internet, and airplanes. Don't eat any food you didn't grow yourself, don't drink any water you didn't haul yourself, don't flush your toilet, in fact, get rid of your toilet and your toilet paper, turn off your electricity, and all the things that it runs. Why are these things not lies too? Why do you not rail against these things in your life? Is it because the scientific method that underpins all science is only faulty in the area of evolution because it goes against the story of creation as it appears in the bible? If you believe in the bible, then you don't believe in man. If you believe the bible is the literal truth, then you CANNOT have any of the things that I have listed because none of them are listed or sanctioned in the bible. If the bible is true, the scientific method has to be false and all the things that have been created through the process of the scientific method are lies. They don't work. They are non functional. The very computer you are reading this sentence on does not work because, god is all powerful and the bible is true so everything not in agreement with it must be false right? Ooops. Now you're thinking. I can see the wheels turning and the rusty gears groaning in your mind. I'm sure that your brainwashing will allow you to find a way to incorporate all the banned items in my list into your life except for evolution. It's too bad too. You almost started thinking for yourself. If you ever do, you will find that you have been fed a lie and that should make you angry. There is a very small possibility that one day you may start actually thinking these things through. Hopefully that day will come and you can quit living your life according to tribal traditions laid down 3000 years ago by a series of cultures ignorant of the reality of the world.

Amen

Puzzling over pre-humans

Brian Elliott — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 22:48:47 GMT

Goddidit.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 23:24:30 GMT

Thomas Ashby,
It seemed to be such a simple question. To answer it you would just make a list. That list would be your suppositions, coming from you, having nothing to do with me or my belief system. I even left it open enough for you to answer vaguely. If you actually have some expectations for involvement by a sentient god they should be relatively easy to list, you just write them down. The alternative, that you just spewed out some good sounding BS that has no reasoning behind it, seams out of character for you. I’m assuming that examples might make things easier. Calvinists think something like God controls every action, he moves us about like marionettes using invisible, spiritual string. This god would be very involved in every process. Gravity wouldn’t just be there, God would be consciously moving that rock he made me throw back toward earth. I, on the other hand, am a “Free Will”er. God doesn’t make me mess things up, he just already knows I’m going to. Zeus didn’t just know what was going on, he gazed down, checked things out and then pelted people with lightning bolts to straighten things out. Maybe God has a plan, built the universe and now just runs around like a maintenance man fixing pipes when they leak, moving a planet back into orbit when it starts to drift, …
So you understand my motives: I agree that evolution takes place outside the governing influence of God. You’ve stated (tacitly) that IF there were a God AND IF he were sentient then you would expect him to be involved in evolution. And I think you’ve made it clear that you don’t think there’s a sentient god, or an insentient one. For you, lack of involvement proves lack of God. This is because you would expect involvement. That interests me and I don’t understand it. I’ve read enough of your postings to have some respect for you. My respect is based on having reasons. I disagree with you on many things, you have reasons for those things, I respect that. I’ve gone to church with people who I completely agree with, they believe the same things I believe simply because Pastor said, I have no respect for that. A quick read of my posts on this thread will confirm. I’m not trying to convert you, just understand your point of view. (When you’re ready to be converted let me know.)

Puzzling over pre-humans

john, new york , new york — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 23:46:24 GMT

hi Alan,
I noticed on your links in the article you link to some articles that support posthumanity. i'm afraid to ask but you don't support it do you?

[ALAN ADDS: I'm not a big adherent of the posthumanism/transhumanism movement. I do think that we're seeing a trend toward more bionic applications ... for example, better prosthetic limbs, and artificial sensory organs ranging from cochleas to retinas. In the far future, there might even be some sort of memory augmentation ... for example, a Google-type searchable database you can access straight from your head. I don't think these sorts of things arise because of some fetish or philosophical preoccupation with machines over flesh, but out of the practical consideration that they repair what ails us and help us live better.]

Puzzling over pre-humans

Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Wed, 08 Oct 2008 04:54:26 GMT

If I was a science teacher or professor and took a hard-line look at the ideas of people who (presumably) actually passed through the education system, a system that heavily leans toward science and technology, what conclusion could you draw?? Just how has a significant part of our lives..EDUCATION..paid off?? Just why has religion impacted our minds and managed to seemingly take up equal space in our conscience as education has (what ever your education may be?).

Right from the get go you are told to "go to church" and "go to school". The latter intent being to "teach you to THINK". The former to "teach you to NOT THINK and get wound up in a complete fantasy"

Puzzling over pre-humans

Zoe Brain, Canberra, Australia — Wed, 08 Oct 2008 07:52:26 GMT

I just wish creationists would make up their mind - was the world sneezed out by the goddess Amaterasu, or was the Rainbow Serpent responsible? Perhaps if they could publish the results of the double-blind experiments, the relative efficacy of praying to various deities, we might take them more seriously.

Puzzling over pre-humans

chuck s. lasvegas nv. — Wed, 08 Oct 2008 10:53:08 GMT

no missing link..? hmmmmm ...Bravo.
ofcourse there's no missing link cause we're here on this planet as an expeirement or posibly as part of the food chain (like cattle)or maybe,GOD put us here???

Puzzling over pre-humans

sanjay s, jhb,south africa — Wed, 08 Oct 2008 12:14:36 GMT

i think aliens came to our planet, genetically manipulated the apes or whatever and produced "humans".Every now and then they drop by to see how we are doing.I 1m sre they are not very impressed.Eventually they wo`nt "visit "at all.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Wed, 08 Oct 2008 13:17:36 GMT

Thomas Ashby,
I must agree with both points you raised. In America it is the INTENT of our schools to teach our students to think. Of course, if you have a pound of intent in one hand and a pound of coffee in the other all you can get is a caffeine buzz.
Also, churches all, at least I think all, want blind acceptance of the doctrine they teach. Maybe "each" should go there to stress that it is one church (or denomination) as opposed to all others. I mean not one unified church teaching one doctrine, but rather Baptists teaching something that is inconsistent with what Catholics teach. Those two against A/G. Those three against Presyterian. Etc. But those are the churches, the people, not God. This is a fault in religion, not in spirituality. A fault I find in men, not in God. I still hold it against God, but I assume that's a fault in me.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Michelle — Wed, 08 Oct 2008 14:52:04 GMT

Fantastic! All thinking scientists understand the limits of perception, and the fact that human beings only see what they expect to see. There is the card game experiment where one card was put in the deck that did not belong. Something like 98% of the people who looked through the cards in the experiment did not notice the wild card. This is why there is always a control set in an experiment so that scientists make conclusions that are not biased. One of the leading challenges of all investigative thinkers is to acknowledge and break free of such limitations. If one is already limited by background knowledge (seeing what you already know), why limit yourself by a finite belief? Perhaps that is the idea behind free will. To see beyond what we know, to then understand the fluidity of knowledge as truth. To be open minded, learn and expand our perceptions.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Wed, 08 Oct 2008 17:21:43 GMT

Tim Rommes...it's the intent of all schools in the west and most of the world to teach you to think..not just "In America.."

You still haven't explained what your view of Lucy is but you sure seem to spend a lot of effort on God etc.

Humanity had a common ancestor millions of years ago. As did all other living things..100's of millions of years ago resulting in the present day situation in accordance with the basic tenets of Darwinian evolution. Evolution is not a complete theory but is a fact. There was no God in this at all.

[ALAN ADDS: The message traffic is starting to turn a little toward the "attacking the comments of others" tone, and there are some messages that I have not let go through. Obviously I haven't clamped down completely on the age-old Darwin/religion debate, but it would be good to turn the focus more on what Lucy and other fossil finds say (or cannot say) about our origins, rather than going after the attitudes of others. Thomas and Tim are both longtime posters, so I tend to give them a little more attitude latitude. But I'd hate to see them get into a one-on-one here. It's sort of like voices being raised at a table in the neighborhood bar. ;-) ]

Puzzling over pre-humans

Rick, michigan — Wed, 08 Oct 2008 17:48:03 GMT

Back to Lucy: Some doubters ask how scientists can tell much about an extinct species from a few bones. They ask how is known if that individual was representative, or abnormal. OK, analogy time. Let's say some anthropologists from the future find the skeleton of a gymnast from the early 21st century. They might surmise all humans from that time were under 5 feet. Suppose they find an NFL lineman, and think we all were tall and muscular. Find both together and they would think we had a huge difference between males and females. If they found a male jockey and a WNBA center, they would think the size dichotomy was the opposite. They could make some decisions about today's humans, but still have many questions. Now suppose they found the stadium with many spectators' skeletons, in addition to the athletes'. Suddenly they could make more accurate models of early 21st century human anatomy. Since they would only get part of each skeleton preserved, the multiple skeletons would help even more. That is the exciting thing about finding Lucy and her fellow australopithicenes. Whether they were direct ancestors, or distant relatives, it gives scientists so much better understanding of the processes and phases involved in the eventual development of modern man. Fascinating!

Puzzling over pre-humans

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Wed, 08 Oct 2008 21:20:35 GMT

Thomas,
You missed the joke so badly. The CAPITALIZATION and statement that followed were supposed to give it away, but I’ll spell things out for clarity. In America we intend our schools to teach a thought process but don’t seem to do such a good job converting that intent to success. Maybe you don’t see the articles, they come up here from time to time. The US is losing ground in technology to other parts of the world. On the street we have native English speakers who are less able to speak English than many non-native speakers. In fact (my observation) some segments of American society don’t seam to have mastered any language at all. But that wanting to teach thing is why most teachers are teachers. It’s not for the money or social status.

I haven’t addressed Lucy specifically. I think I’ve made my views on evolution quite clear. And the process of evolution is the only reason I think we’re even interested in Lucy. I just don’t know of anything particularly noteworthy about Lucy beyond upright stance. No tools, no farming, no pyramids. But, for you:
I think Lucy is dead. I think she, read that as “her kind,” did not spontaneously appear, but rather evolved from mammals already in existence. I would assume that they went on to evolve into something else (based on extensive range, covered below), but it is possible that they died off before enough change happened to call it evolution. A rounded grip cause by curved finger bones indicates arboreal as well as terrestrial dwelling, although that may not have mutated out yet. A front jaw similar to ours, including small canines indicate that some other method of defense was used, considering the upright stance I’d guess running away when in trouble and standing sentries to sound an alert to avoid trouble altogether. Their grinders were large and had extra enamel, so they probably foraged, including low nutrient high fiber foods. This would have given them quite a range, as anywhere stuff grew, even if it was crappy desert stuff instead of apples and oranges, they could eat there. Forward facing eyes are typically taken to mean hunters, but lacking any evidence of tools and such a slight build / lack of natural weapons, I’d say binocular vision probably facilitated the sentries’ efforts by allowing for more precise estimates of distance to assess threat level. So I doubt they ran off just because they saw a predator. I think they were probably beginning to move away from the forest and into open savannah. I would say group living and assume there wasn’t much social difference from apes. In the great scheme of things I’d put them in the food chain as prey, small brained, small bodied, not incredibly fast.

And it’s not that much effort to talk about God on the level I have here.

I agree that evolution is an incomplete theory but still fact. Same as gravity. We can’t fill in all the details but we also can’t deny it. And there’s no God in it because he removed himself. He just did such a bang up job he didn’t need to meddle.

>*>*> Thanks for the leeway, Alan. I hope you’ll agree that we’ve indulged in less proselytizing and god bashing than some other posts. <*<*<

Puzzling over pre-humans

Carlton — Thu, 09 Oct 2008 03:15:26 GMT

ALAN'S FAVORING GONE TOO FAR?

When Thomas Ashby posts that telling people "go to church" has the "intent" "to teach you to NOT THINK and get wound up in a complete fantasy", that is a comment with a "tone" and deception that needs rebuttal. It seems that Alan's providing "attitude latitude" has been too lax with Thomas Ashby's quote just given. When Tim Rommes' comments seem to support this loaded quote of Ashby and no different point of view is allowed, it seems Alan has made an error or not allowed a differently minded contributer to rebut. Rebuttal is not necessary for those with wisdom because the errors and bias are obvious to them, but there are readers of this column that made need to hear some rebuttal. FOR THE RECORD, there are MANY people who DO NOT agree with the Ashby quote above and, especially those who are religious, have a right (and duty?) to be offended. It seems, Alan, the whole paragraph needed your censorship if you were not going to allow its ERRORS and demeaning to be pointed out. It is just plain wrong (or a lie?) to claim "complete fantasy". Saying "a lot of fantasy" would not suffer from the ERROR of "complete fantasy". Thomas Ashby went too far with "complete" and it seems such going too far (making such a terrible error) should not be allowed to slip in even if offered by favorites. "Teaching you to NOT THINK" is another terribly WRONG headed idea. It needs to be pointed out what a terrible offense and ERROR such a stateent is to so many intelligent and good thinking people.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Thu, 09 Oct 2008 05:57:41 GMT

Carlton...So what's your take on Lucy?

Puzzling over pre-humans

Rick, Michigan — Thu, 09 Oct 2008 13:56:14 GMT

Carlton (and all who feel as he does),
As much as I dislike being involved in arguments - much preferring enlightened discourse - I feel compelled to enter this silly war between you and Thomas. While his comments were perhaps a teeny bit strident, your semi-coherent diatribe is unwarranted. While it is difficult to follow, I assume you are refuting his comment that many (most) religions teach their adherents to not think. Painful as it may be to accept, he is correct. While the Catholic church is the most egregious example, every fundamentalist church, mosque, synagogue, temple, whatever discourages any questioning of the basic tenets and conclusions of the religion. Thought is the enemy of religious faith, which is the blind acceptance of a supernatural explanation for unexplained phenomena. Every religion throughout history has developed to provide stability and comfort for its adherents.

This is not intended to mock or insult any religion, or the people who believe in it. In fact, I have a strong belief in some form of higher power out there somewhere. I fully support the right of anyone to believe in any religion they choose, as long as it doesn't harm others. Or to believe they don't believe in any form of a god. But any person who actually defies the fundamentalists and thinks for oneself has to confront the knowledge that the religion may be right for them, but that some (many?) church teachings may be wrong. Whether it is denying scientific findings, killing others in the name of religion, insisting the earth is riding on the back of a turtle, or whatever else has shown to be wrong. One can make a much stronger argument for one's position on a topic if one can present a logical and reasoned explanation of why you believe what you do, whichever side you are on, rather than merely ranting disjointedly about how one believes what one does because that's what one was told to believe. It also helps ones credibility if you can spell correctly, and present a coherent thought.

Now, if someone has something enlightened to present, please proceed. Otherwise, just go to your room and pout.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Thu, 09 Oct 2008 18:05:59 GMT

Rick of MI..Point taken, however, you have to wonder about clergymen who are employed at universities at least as professors in physics, chemistry and astronomy. I have seen them and been taught by a few and in my mind it was always a big question as to how they can honestly be that way and also "be religious". You are quite correct about discouragment any questioning of the basic tenets and conclusions of the religion.

As for Lucy? Very unlikely she was bothered by or ever had to confront these questions. She "just was" and who's only concern was where the next meal was coming from, how to avoid predators, how to fit into a social system..how to SURVIVE and at a time and circunstance far removed from anything we can probably fully comprehend.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Ingrid Felsl, Chicago, Illinois — Thu, 09 Oct 2008 22:59:13 GMT

All I have to say is that evolution is scientific, and science is universal. Creationism is only one religion, and so are others like it.

Puzzling over pre-humans

David Buckna — Thu, 09 Oct 2008 23:29:32 GMT

[ALAN SAYS: This is mostly a cut-and-paste job, but I'm allowing it (and editing down the pasted copy)]

http://www.answersingenesis.org/PublicStore/product/LucyShes-No-Lady,4742,229.aspx

Lucy--She’s No Lady! (DVD)
A Critique of One of the Supposed Ancestors of Man
Featuring Dr. David Menton
Format: DVD
Length: 59 mins.
Dimensions: 5.25 x 7.5 in.
Ages: 15 & up
Publisher: Answers in Genesis–US
Published: 2003

[ALAN SAYS: Follow the link to Answers in Genesis for background on the video.]

'Ape-woman' statue misleads public: anatomy professor
http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/596

Lucy's Knee Joint Revisited
http://www.rae.org/lucy.html

http://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/creationontheweb?q=lucy&hl=en&lr=

The following letter was submitted by David Menton to the St. Louis Post Dispatch on Aug. 2,1996

[ALAN SAYS: Follow this link to read the letter to the editor:]

http://groups.google.lk/group/talk.origins/msg/e4756fa4c0048dfe

Teaching Origins in Public Schools
http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/teach.htm

Should Evolution Be Immune From Critical Analysis?
http://www.rae.org/critanl.html

Is there fossil evidence of 'missing links' between humans and apes?
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c029.html

"Evolutionists claim that no fossils of chimpanzees have ever been found.
The evidence suggests that fossils of chimpanzees have been found, but the
blinding power of a naturalistic evolutionary philosophy, and the determination of evolutionists to find evidence for it has not allowed these fossil chimpanzees to be recognized for what they are."--Marvin Lubenow, "Paleoanthropology in Review", CEN Technical Journal, Vol. 10, No. 1 (1996), pp.10-17

Puzzling over pre-humans

Joel Douglas, Portland Oregon — Fri, 10 Oct 2008 00:16:51 GMT

I think the more scientists study and grasp for solid evidence that supports evolution, the more PUZZLED they will become... Considering the lack of evidence despite decades of research, I would argue that evolution isn't science by definition and better classified as an attribute of secular humanism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism

Seems to me that evolution requires much more faith creation.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Delmar Fairchild, Barron, WI — Fri, 10 Oct 2008 03:47:12 GMT

To: Jane, Flemington, NJ
Evolution doesn't happen overnight. The apes of today may already have evolved from a lower form over the years. Not every species will evolve at the same rate. There could be the same species that evolve at different times for different reasons. That is what Mr. Darwin found on the Archepeligos. The same species of birds that changed to their enviroment or because of their environment on the different islands, ie, FOOD, WATER, SHELTER AND SPACE, the four necessities of life.
Scientists have found that Apes can communicate, use tools and will change and adapt to their surroundings, much like humans. They have even learned to kill and eat not only other species, but their own kind.
It doesn't mean they are our ancestors, or we theirs. It only means that their species are changing, ever so slowly, but they are changing. Hopefully they will survive our devastation long enough to become what they are destined to be.
Unfortunately, I think the Earth will not survive long enough for the apes to evolve much more than they are today. It is a sad time for all species on Earth. There is so many ways we can all be eliminated from the Earth and whatever the survivors are must start their changes again. Next time it may not be the Primates. Maybe the shellfish or insects. They seems to adapt to many of our dangers including radiation. It may have to start with the life we find on the bottom of the ocean in the volcanic vents.
Millions of years from now, someone will be sitting at a computer and writing the same thing as I just did. Only he may not be "Human". Chances are though, he will have a religion.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Fri, 10 Oct 2008 05:20:32 GMT

Joel Douglas...Hard evidence is the fact that mutations happen over time at the genetic level and that geologic time and such things as Uranium-Lead dating is a fact (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium-lead_dating). Soft evidence is the fossil record that begins some 600 million years ago in a marine environment.

http://www.trilobites.info/triloclass.htm

You take it from there.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Peter Devine, London — Fri, 10 Oct 2008 12:33:21 GMT

Apes are more highly evolved than humans if you believe in the GNome project. Well, they don't have a banking system so there could be some truth in that.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Carlton, Kamuela, Hawaii — Fri, 10 Oct 2008 13:08:32 GMT

Rick, Thomas (at end) and Others: Ever Hear of Thomas Aquinas?
How About Thomas More?
How About (doubting) Thomas?
How About C.S. Lewis? ---
Sorry, Thomas, C.S> Lewis is not a Thomas. :-)
Some contributers with their claims or agreement that religion teaches one to "NOT THINK" either have no knowledge of the examples just given (hence, their ERRORS may be explained) or may have closed their minds to facts therein and elsewhere that do not suit their goals (hence, will not be able to see how they are deceiving even themselves).
"Complete fantasy" is not "perhaps a teeny bit strident", but an egregious error (under commonly accepted definitions of these words). There are those who are not willing to admit of their own existence (consider even themselves as a fantasy); hence, one wastes time talking with them about what is and what is not "fantasy". It seems all other humans should be able to agree, for example, that all of the, so called, Ten Commandments, are not "fantasy". These ideas are taught AND studied, using LOGIC, REASON, and THINKING, in many churches. Does anyone think that Rabbis do not TEACH THINKING? WOW, if you do, then you are really out of touch. Logic is a required course in Catholic seminaries in order to THINK carefully about church ideas and assist LOGICAL THINKING among parishioners.
ATTENTION to all those thinking the "Catholic church is the most egregious" and if the last paragraph did not register. The supreme arbiter of the Catholic church is NOT its Pope or all its "tenets"; instead it is (1) God and (2) INDIVIDUAL CONSCIENCE. (I just erased a long explanation of this point because much of it would be distorted and not understood by those who haven't read, studied and understood Thomas Aquinas, for example.)
There should be enough in what has been left to put the error to teaching to "NOT THINK" and BLINDLY following recited tenets. The Catholic church, as I see it, is catholic in that it provides a home for those who do not care to think AND for those who DO. Anybody who thinks it is only for idiots is WRONG. The evolutionists should not forget that Mendel was a Catholic.
Thomas: I am a physicist (educated in one of the best engineering colleges in the U.S. and Brown University's graduate school). Training in Physics leaves one very skeptical about anthropology and biology. Newton's gravitational theory gets a whole lot right, but Einstein's gravitational theory showed Newton to be basically incorrect although approximately correct. If you have any physics background, you can understan how much more solid Newton's theories were and are compared to modern anthropology and biology. Had I lived in Newton's time I am certain that the great success and accuracy of his theories would have convinced me that they were right and would last forever (including the consquence of a clock-like universe). I live in Einstein's times and I am convinced his theories will prevail the way that Newton's still do and some parts, maybe, forever. (Newton is "forever" under restrictions discovered by Einstein and likewise for Einstein if supplanted.) Physics has MATHEMATICAL support that biology and anthropology do not have. THERFORE, Lucy is terribly inadequate evidence compared to the evidence required in physics (which can even deny that Lucy is sufficient evidence at all). If you are wondering if I am an evolutionist, I am in many ways, but I am certain that my definition of evolution does NOT encompass all that of many of the biologists and anthropologists. As a betting person, my "bet" is that Lucy is NOT in the human line; but, as a physicist, I'd rather bet (and with far more money, even my life?) that Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity is correct about bodies with mass not ever being, in our universe, able to move at maximum light speed. "Laws" such as those in physics are NOT found in biology or anthropology and many biologists and anthropologists,
themselves, probably, do not expect the gap to ever be bridged, there are just too many variables (and possible unfixable initial conditions).
For biased me, spending time on discovering the "family tree" is not my cup of tea.
Finally, as a physicist, just look at the sample, Lucy.
If Galilei (Galileo) had presented such a sample on falling bodies and expected somebody to take him seriously as a scientist he might have ended up in a mental institution instead of under house arrest. :-)

Puzzling over pre-humans

Chris Gay, San Diego, CA — Fri, 10 Oct 2008 15:43:05 GMT

I am also a christian and see no confict at all with the bible (which did not appear in its final form in a blinding flash, handwritten by God, but rather after much deliberation over many years by many people). The book of genesis is trying to exlain to very simple people at the time, how cretion occured and when you look at the sequence of events - there is very little contradiction with science. I accept that God crated man but do not presume to dictate "how" he did it or place human limits on his abilities. Evolution is as good a method as any other. As to evolving from apes - science dos not claim this - creationists claim it. Science claims that modern apes and humans have a common ancestor which was neither ape or human.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Shannon, Portland, OR — Fri, 10 Oct 2008 18:11:35 GMT

This provides an excellent opportunity to educate people about the fact that they do not have to denounce evolution in order to remain faithful to their religious beliefs. Pope John Paul II said the following (from wikipedia):

In an address on 22 October 1996 to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, Pope John Paul II reaffirmed the Church's openness to the theory of evolution:

"In his encyclical Humani Generis (1950), my predecessor Pius XII has already affirmed that there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of the faith regarding man and his vocation, provided that we do not lose sight of certain fixed points....Today, more than a half-century after the appearance of that encyclical, some new findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than an hypothesis."

Also, more than 11,000 clergy members have joined the Clergy Letter Project to help educate their followers to the fact that evolution is completely compatible with faith: http://www.butler.edu/clergyproject/rel_evol_sun.htm

I hope people of faith will check out the site above and be open to the fact that a great number of religious leaders see no conflict between their beliefs and evolution. One does not have to deny science to remain faithful to one's own beliefs.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Sat, 11 Oct 2008 02:24:31 GMT

Shannon, Portland, OR...of course the clergy are going to say such things. But the fact remains that evolution proceeds on it's own just as it did from the beginning. The ludicrous idea that a god directs evolution is just full of contradictions that the clergy just won't admit. Faith isn't science and never can be.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Sun, 12 Oct 2008 01:13:41 GMT

Here is a good one http://bibletimeline.net/timeline_closeup.html

Where does Lucy show up on this?

Puzzling over pre-humans

Enezio E. de Almeida Filho, Sao Paulo, Brazil — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 14:08:34 GMT

Lucy is not a female Australopithecus afarensis, but a male one, am I right? If so, then it sounds like the music "A boy named Sue".

Puzzling over pre-humans

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Sun, 19 Oct 2008 00:40:10 GMT

Carlton,
If you can put aside feeling offended and look at what Thomas says, and means to say, you might be able to ease up a bit. He is very opinionated, and often lacks anything to back up his opinions, but his opinions aren't out of left field. He does state things in techni-black-and-white, but that's really not the issue to focus on. I usually make a point with the extreme case, which is different, but equally out of practical. I don't know how much diversity you have in your religeous background. I have been involved in many individual churches in several denominations, plus attendance at many more. It is my experience that leaders in every church, and most churches philosophically teach blind acceptance. That is to not question what they say, just accept it, no thinking. I'm sure in the ivory towers the idea is to present the facts and let the members ponder things and come to the inevitable conclusion that their truth is the truth, but by the time things get to the front line church that's not the case. I blame staffing and budget concerns.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Anne Wingate, Salt Lake City, Utah — Tue, 21 Oct 2008 03:59:39 GMT

Canis lupus and Canis familiaris are not different species according to the definition of species as being, at the closest, able to produce offspring but not offspring that can reproduce. But wolf-dog hybrids can breed readily with both wolf and dog. Even mules and jennies (female mules) can sometimes reproduce with horses.

I am a Christian. But I know a metaphor when I see one, and I do not presume to tell God how to create the world. If he invented one gene that did what he wanted it to, wouldn't it make sense to continue to use that gene for that purpose rather than to create a different gene for every related animal and plant? But I believe in GUIDED evolution. I'll believe in 'it all just happened' the same day I write a book by throwing Scrabble letters down on the floor and recording the sequence and then repeating the process until I'm all through with the book. See "Laputa" in Swift's GULLIVER'S TRAVELS. It discusses this very thing.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 02:14:02 GMT

Anne Wingate, Utah. Your "guided evolution" is "gilded evolution". Appears nice and compelling but is fraught with problems. The biggest being that evolution by definition is natural selection that is not guided at all (other than say by environment and geography which change drastically through large complexes of time).

Involking a God is the easy way out
and has big problems in itself in that it is a weasley way of vindicating a biblical account of existence...which is NOT science.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 13:44:18 GMT

Thomas Ashby said, "Involking a God is the easy way out and has big problems in itself in that it is a weasley way of vindicating a biblical account of existence...which is NOT science."
The science we're dealing with here is pretty complex. The people the Biblical account of creation was written for were pretty simple. I'm guessing that kindergarten science wouldn't satisfy Thomas' image of science either.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 20:53:29 GMT

Tim Rommes..consider this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2ER8CdhCDk&feature=related

Puzzling over pre-humans

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Mon, 27 Oct 2008 22:39:00 GMT

Mel Brooks rocks.

Puzzling over pre-humans

John Reddish, Lancashire — Tue, 28 Oct 2008 18:39:16 GMT

To mark - chimpanzees (and gorillas, etc.) today are capable of walking upright, but the adaptation which is considered to be of vital importance to the emergence of modern humans is to shift to 'full truncal erectness', meaning that somewhere along the way, our ancestors' bodies acquired structural features which made bipedalism the primary mode of locomotion. For example, the point at which the spine joined with the skull shifted so as to balance the head on the spinal column, the lumbar region was shortened as this is a point of weakness in bipedal animals, and the pelvis widened laterally and was compressed vertically, making it better adapted to carry the whole weight of the trunk.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Adam and Eve, Garden, Eden — Fri, 31 Oct 2008 08:08:10 GMT

Could be possible that Cain "the nomad wanderer" who went to the land of Nod and found a wife in Lucy?
Could Nod be Ethiopia ??? Could this be where the dark human race originated?
Cain was evil, jealous, and lonley... found a wife where no other humans were.

Puzzling over pre-humans

Gary, New York, NY — Sun, 08 Feb 2009 14:03:16 GMT

Strange - none of the folks posting the "religious" view have any explanation for why there might be fossils and bones like this. You would have to imagine a universe sized hoax made for human consumption only. Of course, any being with that kind of power could do stuff like send a video message to the world - imagine the power of "God's Weekly Radio Address: this week God explains why the world was created with fake fossils." You have to wonder...

Puzzling over pre-humans

John doe, seattle Washington — Fri, 27 Feb 2009 22:21:43 GMT

Not to worry. Not to worry! I am confident that evolution will cull out the god people in time.

Puzzling over pre-humans

jean,hillsboro,or — Fri, 27 Feb 2009 22:42:38 GMT

To John Doe Seattle - DNA testing has been done - it confirmed we all come from one person - check your science information - now how does this fit into evolution? It really is OK the Bible says love your neighbor no matter what it also says one day all heads will bow and knees will bend in recogination of God so it doesn't matter what you say now God will reveil himself until then we do as we are instructed by the lord - we are comissioned to spread the word and that is what we do.

Puzzling over pre-humans

leo nash avondale AZ — Sat, 28 Feb 2009 06:09:16 GMT

More than a few ancient Rabbis noted that Adam and Eve were created "back to back and then separated." The people that wrote the Eden story knew it was a allegory...why can't 21st century Christians ?

Puzzling over pre-humans

Michael Seltzer, Spout Spring, Virginia — Sat, 28 Feb 2009 06:57:08 GMT

As I read though these different postings, what struck me most clearly is not an attempt at presenting facts or telling truth or demanding solid evidence, nor a real openness for the same, but rather a predictable moronic flagrant arrogance that says I am right and you are wrong. Within evolutionary theory, no one has ever come up with a valid argument that addresses the "where it all began" question...as the song says, nothing from nothing leaves nothing...that goes for addition, division, and multiplication. If your god is the eternal energy, time, and chance "trinity", then those raw "simple" entities alone are extremely complex and demand an answer about origin and design, while in and of themselves they have never revealed any potential to evolve, get more complex, or create outside of their simple existence ..in fact, quite the opposite is clearly demonstrated over and over "all around us". Also, there are clear scientific laws that do refute this "evolving" model that assumes that only a bit more time is necessary for something to evolve from nothing or that something that lacks any cognitive abilities or reactive abilities or abilities to sense anything can, over time without any design or organized effort, evolve these extremely complex qualities, eventually and perfectly without any real purpose or direction. Yes, micro evolutionary tendencies are clearly documented and visualized by those of us aware of such things, but nothing has ever even remotely suggested, much less proven that any known species has become another totally different species. If one who is intelligent, builds something, say a vehicle for transportation, he is likely to have a given limit of materials and technology from which to create his vehicle, whether he set that limit for convenience or that limit was set for him, it is likely that there would be a limit. Therefore, each vehicle he built, whether car, motorcycle, truck, tractor, etc., would have a similar technology and similar parts. It is not too hard to understand why creatures have similar DNA and working parts. When you perfect something, you do not tend to reinvent the wheel! Just because you can manipulate the creation and watch it mutate in response to an outside force or entity, does not show any evidence that the creation has a long-term agenda and ability to mutate into something totally different and/or far more complex that somehow was able to perfectly effect and/or benefit another entity/species neither of which have any apparent awareness of the other, as is seen in nature all the time. It takes way too much faith to believe in your fantasies that you call science. It is also scientifically impossible for the things in the Christian Bible to have happened the way that they were prophesied. It is mathmatically impossible, even when adding billions of years, for the known history and known proven prophesies to have come true so perfectly as is the fact in the Christian Bible. Your arrogance will never let you see that truth and you will die in your fantasies (that better serve your desired world view), but those that have arrogantly sought to prove my bold statement false, (some with credentials clearly superior to those that responded in these messages), all walked away without being able to prove the statement wrong and most accepted the truth of the Word of God, but I understand if you would rather believe in whatever makes you feel good and/or superior and/or comfortable. Most people clearly would rather believe in a good story or fantasy that supports their world view and comfort zone, than to go to the effort to know the truth...foolishness prevails and is scientifically proven in statistics!

Puzzling over pre-humans

Bryan,HIdeaway, TX — Sat, 28 Feb 2009 14:51:21 GMT

It's already been said, and sometimes very well. All truth is God's truth, but that does NOT mean a "believer" is thereby endorsed in all opinions! I have NO problem with current understandings of evolution. I have NO problem with the Bible. Each tells an important part of the human story. I DO have a problem with those who leave no room for mystery, and presume that what "anyone" knows today is the whole story. Amazing is a fine word, and "awe-struck" is an excellent attitude for all of us.