Courts weigh doomsday claims

Mike Lentsch, St. Paul, MN — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 21:21:18 GMT

All this talk of a "God" particle makes me a little nervous...

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Rich in Gaithersburg, MD — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 21:31:49 GMT

OK, Alan. Time to take a stand. What do you think? Is that machine completely and absolutely safe to operate? And we're not talking about any "most likely" or "beyond a reasonable doubt" here. Given what's at stake, the level of assurance has to be 100%.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Sandra — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 21:34:47 GMT

It would be largely appreciated by many people if the LHC could wait or never collide particles. It wouldn't even be worth the risk, we are talking about billions and billions of lives at stake here.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Robert M. Marion, Ohio — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 21:46:55 GMT

Well..., we may solve the mystery of what causes black holes. Maybe they were other worlds that turned on their own versions of the Large Hadron Collider and their solar systems were sucked in. Of course, our revelation could be short lived.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Mungo, Sacramento, CA — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 23:03:39 GMT

This just sounds like a science project from the villain in a comic book. Other dimensions? Creating a black hole on the earth? What guy who's too smart to screw in a light bulb came up with that? Dr. Evil? "Hey guy's let's make a miniature black hole on the Earth. It's completely safe..."

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 23:20:59 GMT

Reminder:
We have, in past threads, seen the complaints about spending money on this research instead of combating the various world woes. So no need to pipe in about that here.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 23:24:01 GMT

What do the plaintiffs here hope to accomplish? If our judge has power to stop another country why didn't we invoke that power for the Cuban Missle Crisis? I see what there safety concerns are, but what can our courts do about it. Issue an injuction then send the FBI over to arrest those bad men if they ignore it?

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Shawn, Dallas, Texas — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 23:34:29 GMT

This is ridiculous. The fact of the matter is that mankind cannot possibly harness enough power to make an earth-destroying black hole. It's simply impossible, and we will not be able to muster such power, if at all, for a very, very, very long time.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Phil N. Hollywood ca — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 23:42:30 GMT

I think this lawsuit is kinda stupid and holding up good science. Hawking radiation "proves?" that black holes do radiate energy and decay over time. A hubble picture of two jets leaving the south and north pole of a black hole is more proof. also the black hole in question is being created out of a few heavy atoms, so not much mass is involved hear. thus the black hole will radiate away its energy proportionally to its mass. so a massive black hole will take along time to radiate away, but a black hole created from a few atoms will only last under a second. the new little black hole will not have enough gravity to continue a feeding cycle and will die almost right after birth. this lawsuit is built on fear and ignorance.
the article unlike the lawsuit was good.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

fissilemissile — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 23:46:32 GMT

Wouldn't it be cool if humans were in fact caught in a time continuum loop whereby we get so advanced that we create the next universe, wiping ours out with the LHC, only to have earth form again and have evolution bring about humans so they can evolve and grow technology only to create the LHC again, over and over thereby creating the alternate universes, not simultaneously but in line. Kind of like an unsupported circle that spins like a wheel but has a wobble because it can't keep it's perfect 360 form each time around, therefore allowing the variances in alternate realities to exist just not at the same time.

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Ernest Adams, Normandy, United Kingdom — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 23:56:16 GMT

Your tax dollars at work defending science from these nutjobs. Doesn't the Federal government have the power to refuse to allow itself to be sued? And wouldn't this be an ideal circumstance in which to exercise that power?

I think we should sue to stop the Hubble repairs, too. They might reveal something... unexpected! Horrors!

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Alan Boyle — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 00:00:06 GMT

Rich, I'm of the view that it's absolutely safe, but I'm glad to listen to arguments on the other side. The big problem is calling the darn things black holes instead of white holes. I've mentioned Hawking's Q&A on this before, but here are some links on the subject:

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/apr/12/science/sci-hawking12

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/319/5868/1321a

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23509238/

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/physics/news/Panda_news/ulffewk_fibhole_06_03_08.htm

http://www.physicspost.com/physicsforums/topic.asp-ARCHIVE=&TOPIC_ID=9872.htm

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Rich Z,Sergeantsville, NJ — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 00:44:00 GMT

Well... don't the cores of blue supergiants like Rigel have operating energies that CERN could not even come close to? They still seem to be around and shining even after several million years.

Also, given the amount of supernovae that have occurred over the millenia, you would think that statistically strangelets, monopoles and other exotic zoo members would have been created (and observed)by now

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James Tankersley Jr, Middleton, WI — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 00:47:53 GMT

Hello Alan,

I am thankful for your extensive and balanced coverage of this important issue.

What is your opinion of Dr. Plaga's "three feasable measures for risk mitigation, at least in the start up phase of LHC", which he concludes "To take such safety measures would not exclude but reduce any remaining risk"[1]

Physics PHD Dr. Rainer Plaga writes:

1. Increase of collision energy by reasonably small factors (say, 2) in one step.

Currently it is planned to perform the first runs at LHC at an energy more than 5 times higher than previously reached[29]. This might result in the copious production of completely novel states, which production was exponentially suppressed at the previous energies. “Proceeding in small steps” mitigates this risk.

2. No operation in which no or only a very tiny fraction of events are analysed.

Currently it is planned to eventually record and analyse only a fraction of 10−7 8 of all events[34]. This is the equivalent of entering new territory and to be on the lookout only for the interesting but not the potentially dangerous.

3. Safety considerations influence the trigger and operational procedures. Meta stable black holes might not yield very spectacular events, but it seems desirable to ensure that their presence is immediately and reliably detected. An immediate interruption of operation and detailed offline study of the event might be a possible risk mitigating measure.

[1] http://arxiv.org/abs/0808.1415 On the potential catastrophic risk from metastable quantum-black holes produced at particle colliders, Rainer Plaga (August 10, 2008)

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Alan Boyle — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 01:08:59 GMT

James, thank goodness I'm not in charge of collider operations, because all I know is what I read in the papers. CERN has said they want to get up to 5 TeV for commissioning, but it's not clear to me whether that is 5 TeV per beam or 5 for the collisions. Right now, the Tevatron is up to around 1.8 to 2 TeV, so the commissioning goal might be on the order of 2.5 to 3 times as high as the Tevatron. I suspect they won't go immediately to 5 TeV. So that's No. 1.

I do know there are supposed to be so many events coming out of the run that hardware as well as software triggers are required to cull through the data. It's unavoidable that a lot of data will have to be discarded, but I think the kinds of events that hint at black hole creation will not be discarded. Also, the black holes (or white holes) would not be detected directly, but rather by analyzing the decay products.

Here's what Michelangelo Mangano said about the detection process:

"Q: How would these black holes be detected? I assume that you wouldn’t detect them directly, but you’d detect them through their decay products.

"A: This is true of pretty much every particle that we produce at this accelerator. Even the top quark is not detected directly, because it decays within 10^-24 seconds. What we see are the decay products. It’d be the same for a black hole. It would decay on a time scale that is about a factor of thousands smaller than that of the top quark. The main feature of a black hole decay is that there would be no bias in the particles coming out of the decay.

"The final state would be relatively spherical, with no specific direction. There’d be a uniform distribution, with many highly energetic particles of all different kinds: electrons, muons, quarks, photons. This is something that the typical proton-proton collision would not give rise to. It would be a very distinctive signature."

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/07/02/1180976.aspx

... So I assume that any black hole events would be picked up on pretty quickly. I hope that addresses Nos. 2 and 3. But again, I'm just a poor science writer trying to make sense of a world he never made. ;-)

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Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 02:05:39 GMT

They say there is no way of directly measuring the events occuring as this confined energy density happen. Since time itself will be altered as space-time is curved at that microscopic point, it's too bad we don't make clocks that small !

Maybe the local time at the LHC will be altered for ever? Stuck in it's own timewarp?...(not serious of course.)

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Doug Wead, Las Vegas, NV — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 02:57:01 GMT

It takes a lot of simple minds to solve these complex puzzles. Too much of science involves sticking fingers in light sockets.

Personally, I like atoms just the way they are. I love life and the current state of things.

We need to rule out the ability of anyone to study this sort of nonsense and to disassemble any facility that makes efforts in these areas.

It is sad the minds that are stuck in these cycles in various labs around the world working on the next great catastrophe.

They need to leave the lab, grab a board and hit some waves...life rocks!

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That Guy, NC — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 03:05:03 GMT

Just to throw this out there. The Paper by Dr. Plaga was reviewed and the results can be found here. http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0808/0808.4087v1.pdf

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Lee Baumann Sugar Tree TN — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 03:10:41 GMT

Ever hear of a place called Chernobyl? The science was so well known and understood that the government that built the reactors didn't build a containment vessel around them knowing nothing could go wrong. Well guess what? The consequences of something going wrong at CERN could have an incalculably larger effect than Chernobyl based on science that is far less understood than a fission reactor. Cross your fingers and hold your breath.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Bob, St. Louis, MO — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 03:12:16 GMT

Starter up!

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Don, Tigard, Oregon — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 03:22:48 GMT

I have to say, as a regular joe with 3 years of college. This interests me to no end. Mr. Boyle, I have read some of the links you've provided and even managed to read through the 12 page research paper you linked. While I don't understand the mathematical equations, I do generally understand what the authors were writing about. You have provided a great service to those of us who are a little less educated yet still interested. I hope that great things come from LHC, but realize nothing in life comes without risk. To all the naysayers, have you ever had a kidney stone found by a CAT scan? I did this year, and I am willing to bet that without the things we've learned from previous colliders, and "radical" thinkers, I would have had to suffer quite a bit longer than I did. Again, thank you Mr. Boyle, please keep up the good work.

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Cary, Northridge, CA — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 03:37:20 GMT

I salute these brave indviduals for standing up and doing whats right. They seem to be the only ones who care about preserving life on Earth. Countless distinguished scientists have agreed that this machine poses GREAT risk to the planet and has the ability to destroy it. Hopefully one of these lawsuits will prevail prior to September 12th and we will be able to continue our lives and give our children the chance to live theirs.

Stop this machine before its too late! Write your congressman, contact the press, tell your friends. If you care about the future of this planet we all must unite and do something!

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D. Gaffney — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 03:41:57 GMT

I dont trust that collider .I dont think its safe,And wouldnt be messing with nature? I think people around the world should vote or let there govement know how they feel about it first .Before they turn it on.aND ASK IS IT SAFE TO TURN ON AND USE?Also what good it for any way? Or is it another play toy for science to play with?

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Delmar Fairchild, Barron, WI — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 03:43:05 GMT

I am glad to see we have one MSNBC writer that is humble and non partisan.
Alan, because of that, you can be sure that I will read what you write until you can write no more. Good Stories!!!

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Michael J, Saint Petersburg, Florida — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 06:00:54 GMT

Has Hawkins theory ever been proven by solid repeatable scientific experiments? Lets not return to the days of Athenian science were we looked for imperial evidence with just the minds eye. The consequences of this type of pure reason may falter, and unlike the Greeks that mistook elliptical orbits for perfect crystal spheres, ours may turn from a little white lie to something quite different.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Justin Waddell — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 07:32:11 GMT

Ok, check out my blogs on my myspace. I explain a lot of different theories about doomsday (Dec. 21, 2012.) I offer every explanation possible. The signs are there folks the sun went under a polar shift in feb. 2001, thus causing room for concern. In the article also on my page it shows that the sun is due for another polar shift in 2012 meaning; the north and south poles switch places. That being the easiest way to explain it. The planet earth is also due for a polar shift in 2012. "When" not "if" this happens.... well read my blog. You'll get it!!

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Justin Waddell, Indianapolis, IN — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 07:34:31 GMT

by the way if not shown my website is www.myspace.com/justinwaddell

Courts weigh doomsday claims

James Costa, Upland, CA — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 07:57:20 GMT

Thank you for the informative article Alan. I for one welcome new science and new developments in the highest-technology realm which I believe will continue to open our doors to what we don't understand or conceptualize at this point.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Dan, Landenberg, PA — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 08:50:21 GMT

Sure the scientists at CERN are going to say that it is completely safe. They have been working for years to build this thing. What scares me is that other scientists that have no involvement are saying that it is dangerous. When the earth is getting swallowed by a black hole, I guess then we will have our answer.

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Allan — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 10:05:33 GMT

There Has To Be Destruction For There To Be Creation.

Let Them Play With Things They Have No Idea About...

It Might Be A Stupid Science Experiment Or It Might As Well All End Up In A Catastrophic Scene Like In "Mars Attack" When They Release The "White Pigeon."

On The Other Hand...If We Don't Experiment With Things How 'R' We Going To Find Out Answers?

Aren't You Tired Of Living In A World Where Life Is Based On "99% Is Theories"?

There 'R' Other Things That 'R' Destroying The Planet Every Day...Is Not Like If The World Is In perfect Shape Or Like If The Human Race Has Such A Remarkable Humane/Harmless Mentality Now Days Anyway...

There's Not Much At Stake But A Bunch Of Very Precarious Creatures Playing With Live Wires...But Again. That's Just My Perspective.

I Wish I Was Wrong.
Believing It, Would Only Be To Be Pretending.

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sara,sarajevo bih — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 12:46:43 GMT

how they will control black hole ,when they don't know much about that phenomen?

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Carlton, Kamuela, Hawaii — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 13:14:55 GMT

100% ACCURACY ETC.
Bona fide scientists know that 100% accuracy is not possble in the physical world, may be possible in spiritual or philosophical world (realm). All scientists that claim 100% accuracy or demand it expose their scientific ignorance, hence, they are not "bona fide". Therefore, the question arises about where the line should be drawn, 99.9%, 99.99%, 99.999%? The next time you drive your car do you know what the chances are that you won't have a deadly accident. If you want 100%, then you must not drive and in some situations it's as low as 60%; yet, most will still drive. I don't remember exactly the chance that the first astronauts to the Moon would get home safely, but it was no where near even 90%. The probability that the first nuclear bomb blast couldn't start a chain reaction that would consume the Earth was not 100% and, of course could not be in the physical world (especially in view of currently known quantum theory). Had the legalists, including some renown physicists, had their day in court, we might still be fighting WWII. Of course, some will say think of all the Japanese lives that could have been saved, but would not that number have paled in comparison to those, Japanese, and others, lost in pitched battles that might still be going on. O.K. "going on" is an exaggeration. Isn't it amazing that about 20,000 deaths a year due to drunk drivers gets far less concern than the less than 5,000 American soldiers killed in over 5 years in Iraq? All the deaths due to coal miners getting black lung disease mining coal for our electric power plants far out number those ever killed by nuclear reactors, making electricity or whatever, and it seems to be ignored by the legalists who are making nuclear power expansion too expensive. BACK OFF legalists and allow us to save a lot more lives than your legal tactics will ever save.
Perhaps some number, which has to be less than 100%, could be accepted for a particular situation, but it might be unacceptable for another. Who is to decide. I, certainly, don't think the average (even above average) judge should be making the judgement in most scientific matters. Perhaps several judges, with very high scientific expertise, might manage to get it right, but one judge with little or no such expertise should not be relied upon except to see if the acceptable number has been met or not. Such a judge still needs enough expertise to see if the briefs are true and scientifically accurate and I still don't know if a single judge could do this. Maybe that's why we have 9 members on the U.S. Supreme Court; yet, while they may be able to sort out the legal niceties, they do not have adequate scientific expertise. Again, anyone, judge or otherwise, who wants 100% probability (certainty) is automatically disqualified in scientific matters.
As for the LHC NOT making things that are capable of "swallowing" the Earth, 99.9999% confidence seems reasonable (suspect it might have even more confidence, but quantum-physics uncertainty keeps me at that number with safety). Whether or not that's enough confidence gets us out of science and my area of expertise; so, I'll leave it to others to chat about it in other areas where they are experts.
Sorry Alan, but your "absolutely safe" is the same as 100% confidence and outside the realm of science. I, however, share your statement of "FAITH". If you define "absolutely" as at least 99.9999% and close enough to 99.9 followed by an infinity of 9's to satisfy your definition, then you are O.K. again. Remember that 99.9 followed by an infinity of 9's is mathematically equivalent to 100.0 followed by an infinity of 0's. :-)

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Mike — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 13:41:53 GMT

Why do half of you people talk like you have quantum physics degrees?

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Frank Reynolds — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 13:58:27 GMT

When the courts throw out this lawsuit based on the current arguments, these people will invent some other world ending catastrophy to try to stop this important research.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

A. McReady, Aberdeen — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 14:19:31 GMT

Hi thanks for an informative article. Just a question I see alot of people on the pushing that it's going to eat the world and all that, but has anyone like hawkings or anything like a science big hitter who's opinions carry any weight come out condemning CERN for their project.

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A. Non. Imus. — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 14:32:06 GMT

So, all this and no cure for cancer?

Courts weigh doomsday claims

PatricktheGeek — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 14:41:03 GMT

If the LHC could create black holes, then we would not exist, since collisions of greater energies happen continuously in the atmosphere.

Fundamental Particles: Electron, Neutron and Proton.
Fundamentalist Particle: Moron.

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Adam, Meyrin, Switzerland — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 14:41:25 GMT

"CERN has said they want to get up to 5 TeV for commissioning, but it's not clear to me whether that is 5 TeV per beam or 5 for the collisions."

It is 5 TeV per beam:
http://press.web.cern.ch/press/PressReleases/Releases2008/PR06.08E.html

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Baron Von Kerplunk — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 15:00:32 GMT

I'd like to stand in the middle of this giant ring and perhaps benefit from it when it gets turned on.

Doesnt that sound like somewhere a superhero a la the hulk could be created?
i know he had the atom bomb, but thats ridiculous, this is much more realistic....

id be more hoping for the kind of powers Jon from the graphic novel "Watchmen" got that hulk powers myself....

Whos with me?!?!

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Kurt - Evergreen, CO — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 15:12:50 GMT

Subjective experience > Objective morality. Ayn Rand loses to Hume.

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Glen Hughes, England — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 15:30:13 GMT

im so sorry to annoy everyone but im really scared now, i cant sleep wondering what the hell is going to happen on september the 10th, surely if they know it would create a black hole then youd have to get the "go ahead" from everyone on the planet, seriously alan what is going to happen, cos im hearing that a black hole will be made!

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Jiff Woods, Tampa, FL — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 15:33:25 GMT

Sounds to me like some pretty dangerous stuff those guys are messing around with if you ask me.

Jiff
www.privacy.mx.tc

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aieden ,england,whitehaven — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 15:37:42 GMT

oh my god ..this is soo stupid you cannot contain a black hole .. even if it's really small ...

maybe somethings are left unknown...

don't you think..?

i don't want to be told how long i have to live for

and even if you do succeed how are you meant to get rid of the black hole ?

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Lincoln Paradox — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 15:41:34 GMT

The fact of the matter is that we don't have the capability to produce enough energy to experimentally test Planck Energy, let alone create a pinpoint singularity.

CERN is producing antimatter by the nanogram and you yahoos are worried about black holes.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 16:03:07 GMT

Alan wrote, "... So I assume that any black hole events would be picked up on pretty quickly."
This assumes decay. I think James' inquiry is about what if they don't decay, how will we even know they're there. We have no way to detect them if they're stable. Philip J. Calamatas put up a comment lining out effects we would see as a MBH grows in one of these threads, I'll see if I can find it and post a link. But the effects on earth as it's insides are sucked out would be our first indication. (If MBHs are stable and can eat and can eat fast enough for it to matter. I'd say no on each.)
This is the concern that's coming to the surface in these blogs. We probably can't even make a detector, so they (those wanting some better safety assurance) won't be satisfied in that way. They generally accept the idea that any reaction that would happen in the LHC already happens with cosmic rays, but figure these resultants are always produced with great speed and move away before and yamage is done. The only thing I can think of that will satisfy them is high energy cosmic ray collisions resulting in near stationary products. Head on cosmic ray collisions similar in virtually all respects to LHC. I don't have any kind of stats for that though. You'd figure it has to have happened close enough to every major body that if stable, consuming MBHs can be produced they have been in a lethal proximity. Yet the earth and sun still exist.
Anybody know how to develop those numbers? Or find them done already? Cosmic ray density, random direction, average number of head ons, etc.

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Ron Russman, Elk twnsp, PA — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 16:05:44 GMT

I don't have a problem rattling this cage a little, but if this is an ego battle between scientists, I'm not happy. I think we need to know this infomation. This is no place for ad hominem attacks. I have no reason, but my gut tells me to trust these guys.

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Sean Scholfield — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 16:19:48 GMT

Why am I paying fo this when my country is in recession and my pay scales keep going down? It seems a terrible waste of money for something that will be used only a few times. Is this why we are in recession?

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Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 16:21:50 GMT

Here it is:
http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/06/16/1146317.aspx
Just cut and paste the above into address bar. Entry on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 8:15 AM

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Kirk, Traverse City, MI — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 16:23:53 GMT

I have put my faith in science my whole life, and I have faith and trust in the scientists working on this project. I cannot believe that this project would be going forward with these people knowing or believing that they were putting us all at risk. I think its time that we try to ignore our inner paranoia about things we don't understand, and allow human progress to be made at understanding these fundemental concepts about our universe. Those who don't want to know about such things can cover their eyes and ears.

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Steven, San Angelo, TX — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 16:29:23 GMT

I say let them use it, if anything happens God will save us right? lol

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Johnny Ezzell, Nashville, NC — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 16:40:41 GMT

The real question is can we afford to not explore this technology. This planet is dying more and more every day. We have to explore the technologies that could lead us to faster exploration of the known universe if we want to survive as a species. This tool could help us there.

It could help us understand more about anti-matter and how to collect it. Another commenter said something about anti-matter weapons, and while this is a possibility, another possibility is anti-matter powered engines that can produce close to speed of light travel. It's also possible that they could power warp drives in the future (yes, warp drives are really being explored, they're not just in star trek)

The knowledge we could gain as a society using this technology is well worth the incredibly minor risk is poses.

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Fred, Washington, D.C. — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 16:41:33 GMT

All I know is, if Arnold Schwarzenegger suddenly appears out of thin air and starts asking about Sarah Conner, we're in big trouble.

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Joe Marzen, Edgerton, Wi — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 16:43:35 GMT

If it unravels the universe it's not like you're going to have time to brood about it. You won't exist and it won't matter.

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Kayleen B, Salem, Mass. — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 16:45:51 GMT

Overly curious scientists. The LHC isn't needed, so is the risk of the world really worth it? It's okay to ask questions, but we can't always rip out the answers.

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Dick Dufus — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 16:55:42 GMT

Black Holes could be set up for all large cities and around Nuclear Plant's waste storage buildings. One would have to be careful and not back up the garbage trucks to close or they would get sucked in. Perhaps a ramp would let the refuse kinda slide in. Kids need to be cautioned to not play to close to them or their baseballs and bicycles could get sucked in.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Tim Rommes, Washington,UT — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 17:17:41 GMT

Thomas,
Maybe we'll have to deal with Standard, Daylight Savings and Distorted Time zones.

Doug Weed,
I AGREE!!! Let's burn books, too. Darn books.

Justin Waddel,
You can put a link to your page below the message box. Then we can just click your name and go to your page.
Message
Name
email
site

Baron Von Kerplunk,
You'll have to wait. There are plenty of others we'd like to put in the beam first.

Glen Hughes,
"Black hole" is such an unfortunate terminology. It brings up images of some cataclysmic thing bent on destroying us all. It's not like that. Go to sleep. Your grandchildren's grandchildren will sleep well. Except for global warming, pollution, urban violence, etc., but the LHC won't be the thing that hurts them.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

jd — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 17:26:46 GMT

Justin Waddell, I have read all these posts [...]

1. Your Dec 21 2012 doomsday is based off the fact that the 4th age of the Mayan calendar ends on that date. Notice I said 4TH AGE. If this is the fourth what tells you there isn't going to be a 5TH AGE! I'm pretty sure no archeologists studying Mayan Civilization and Hieroglyphs have ever stated that the Mayan Calendar ENDS with the 4TH AGE.
2. The Sun is a massive gyro and flips its poles pretty regularly with no effect on us.
3. The Earth goes through polar shifts every quarter to half million years or so (so who knows when the next one will be). The time it takes to shift will take many years, and at worst it will reduce the magnitude of our magnetic field (which is solely responsible for protecting us from radiation, and those cool aurora borealis’) and from all estimates I have heard through my education it will only reduce the magnitude of the magnetic field by 10-20%.

Steven, you are right on. For the 50% of us that don’t believe in divine intervention, I will be raising my glasses to you on the LHC turn on date. I’m assuming the majority of you are the educated individuals who are truly interested in the science we have to gain (and with the full understanding that it will not be doomsday).

For the other 50% of America, get off the bandwagon and crawl back under your rock. God will save you from the disaster and you can sit on your mountain top and point and laugh at us then…

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Anne — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 17:36:42 GMT

Well, the world is supposed to end at some point, right? So why not give this thing a shot and if anyone survives doomsday, they will know better!

I personally am really excited for the CERN folks to begin their experiments and to hear their results. Just 'cause you don't understand something doesn't necessarily mean its wrong or unsafe.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Kyle — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 17:41:23 GMT

It needs to happen, it could advance our society and technology leaps and bounds into technological advances. Even if it does create a black hole and we all die - who cares. Have you seen the way humans treat eachother - beheadings, torture, bombings - try to watch a video of a beheading and not wonder what has happened to humanity. Who says we deserve to live in our current state - turn it on so we can either advance or perish.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Taylor Porter, Victoria, Canada — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 17:44:21 GMT

This is just like the people (Crappy Scientists) who thought that an Atomic bomb over 10 kilotons would ignite the oxygen in the atmosphere and would kill us all. The scientists in charge of the lhc are smarter then you, especially about particle physic's. Plain and simple.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Gphillip, Houston, TX — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 17:49:46 GMT

Did I hear, "Thanks for the fish"?

Seriously, has anyone even bothered to read the risk assessment put out by the LHC? If there were even a one in a billion trillion chance this thing could destroy the Earth, every white dwarf star (and probably every neutron star as well) in our universe would have been destroyed billions of years ago. We can never say there is 100% safety, or that there is a 0% hazard. But to put it in perspective, we are billions (if not trillions) of times more likely to be destroyed by an asteroid or comet, millions, if not billions of times more likely to be destroyed by a gamma ray blast or a free wandering black hole from outside our solar system. As rarely as s stable yellow star like our Sun explodes unexpectedly, I would estimate that would happen millions of times more often than this puny little accelerator could destroy the earth. Yes, it is a powerful accelerator by human standards, but by nature's standards of something like a Quasar, it's almost nothing at all.

Of course, I could be wrong.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Bob C., Dallas, TX. — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 18:10:21 GMT

1) I say "Do it!" If it is the end of life on earth (and it won't be) then so be it!!
2) We need this, we need to learn all we can about everything this stands for and much much more!!
3) Besides, isn't it too late? They should have tried to stop it BEFORE it was completed or even before start of construction. How stupid to wait until the last minute and after all the money and time invested.
4) We have no power to stop them anyway, how stupid can these opposed people be, just let it go and sit back and enjoy!! I think you will be glad you did!
5) For all those opposed, I would say that after this is over and we start to reap the benefits, you will not get to enjoy them.
7) We need somebody to sneak in there and fire it off, the heck with the people trying to stop it, then we can prove once and for all, there is nothing to fear and nothing to worry about at all!!
8) ALL WILL BE FINE!! You'll see!!

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Jeff — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 18:12:15 GMT

Check your facts please. Mr. Higgs detests his proposed boson being called the "God Particle," so it is, in fact, NOT known as that. Please stop calling it that. It's the "Higgs boson." Nothing more, nothing less.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Chris/Trento/Italy — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 18:27:22 GMT

What bothers me most, apart from the fact that we could disappear just because of some kind of mad scientist trying to be God(and I´m not calm as even if there would be a 0.3% of risk they shouldn´t put us on risk,there´s anyway no justification), and apart from the terrific waste of money behind all this, is that there´s a kind of parallel world doing sneak things behind the curtains without our consensus and even our awareness.
Now we hear this because of those 3 scientist suing them but how many experiments they did without we do know?

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Jim Bob — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 18:52:17 GMT

Here are a few scientific things I have learned thoughout my lifetime:

1. Don't cross the streams when using a proton pack.
2. ALWAYS cut the blue wire (not the red).
3. If you time travel, don't visit yourself. Seeing yourself could be catastrophic. Oh...and always take along some extra plutonium.

I'm not sure about this technology, but I wouldn't want to be around if it goes wrong.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Barry — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 19:09:36 GMT

Kirk: Then scientists who aren't working on this project (the plaintiffs) should be trusted too. Since there are contradictory opinions among the scientists, you have to weigh the arguments, which the court is.

I think I'd rather spend extra money and have this done robotically on Mars or whatever's at a safe distance. Or better yet, dump the project. We probably won't even get a better non-stick coating from it.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Steve, Germantown, MD — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 19:15:33 GMT

Apparently I've just been sucked from my normal universe into one where the laws of physics were written by Stan Lee (that's Mavel comics dude). OR is it that the nay-sayers and nervous nellies came from the comic book universe? Puhleese if you are concerned about this use the circumstances to educate yourself using information from a reputable source. How about "The Black Hole War" by Leonard Susskind?

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Robert M. Alto, Tx. — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 19:46:25 GMT

I think the only danger with this thing is it might show us some new law of physics that would allow us to creat something like a gravity bomb or something else unthought of to destroy ourselves with.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Harvey Summers, Richmond, VA — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 19:49:38 GMT

Someone has been watching too much science fiction and not taken enough science classes.

So let me boil this down for you. If CERN creates a black hole, it will be a quantum black hole, which means that its really, really, really small. Which means that it doesn't have enough mass to be stable and will evaporate in milliseconds. That's really, really, really fast - too fast to suck in enough mass to become stable.

It is far more likely that aliens will destroy the earth because we don't have a good understanding of science than be doomed by anything CERN does. So we must fire it up to save the planet!

My stupid science fiction idea trumps your stupid science fiction idea. Now lets argue about which Star Trek series was the best.

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Patrick, Topeka KS — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 19:57:07 GMT

Given the possible hazards, why is no one in the news media asking McCain or Obama for their views on the LHC? It's a little silly for candidates to be babbling on about our national security from "terrorists" if we're about to be sucked out of planetary existence by scientists.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Gabe, Grand Rapids, MI — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 20:16:15 GMT

Is anyone answering to the question, "What good will come of this collider?" As a person who beleives in science, I would say we should not get in the way of exploration. Throughout history exploration in science is what has given us airplanes, computers, and CURES FOR DISEASES. I'm sure the pros out weigh the carfully calculated cons.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

nicolas, Aland, Finland — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 20:26:13 GMT

i don´t know that much about science but i know that if there is a chance (no matter how small) that the world could be destroyed why take the risk. Why spend so much time and money in something that could( not likely at all, but actually possible ) destroy everything.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Alan Boyle — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 20:35:13 GMT

I see commenters are getting around to the "what good is all this" question, so I'll repost the remarks I made in earlier items on this score:

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/08/07/1252902.aspx

Over the past 70 years or so, physicists have been smashing atoms and subatomic particles together to study what makes them tick. The analogy has been made to shooting at a nerf ball with a BB gun, and trying to figure out what's inside the nerf ball by seeing how the BBs are deflected and what gets knocked loose.

These particle colliders have been operating at higher and higher energies, and they've been quite useful ... not only because they reveal what we're made of (for example, the discovery of quarks, etc.) but also because the beams have real-world applications (treating cancer, developing stronger materials, mapping internal organs).

The Large Hadron Collider ("hadron" refers to any particle that contains quarks) will be by far the most powerful particle collider to date, achieving energies seven times as high as the previous champion (the Tevatron in Illinois). It's important to remember that collisions far more energetic occur in outer space all the time. You could think of the LHC as the best artificial cosmic-ray simulator we've been able to come up with so far.

So what will it find? We'll go into that in much more depth in a couple of weeks, but in brief, physicists hope to answer some of the puzzling questions that have been unanswerable until now. For example, based on our current understanding of gravity, we know that all the matter we can see is only about 10 percent of all the matter in the universe. Scientists believe the other 90 percent is "dark matter," which may consist of exotic particles that zip through us all the time but have never been detected. The LHC could detect the signatures of such dark matter particles.

Another question has to do with antimatter. Theorists have said that equal parts of matter and antimatter arose in the big bang that gave rise to the universe as we know it ... but theoretically, those equal parts should have annihilated themselves and resulted in pure energy. There must have been something about antimatter that gave it a disadvantage and led to the fact that we hardly ever see antimatter in nature. One of the LHC experiments, LHCb, will address that conundrum.

Another LHC experiment, called ALICE, will seek to re-create the conditions that existed just after the big bang and study the plasma (or fluid) that made up all that was at that time.

Then there's the Higgs boson. As I mentioned above, it's the last particle predicted by the Standard Model that hasn't yet been detected. It is thought to be associated with a field that determines which particles will have mass (like protons) and which particles won't (like photons). It's so important to the way the world works that it's been called the "God Particle."

Theorist John Ellis told me that the Higgs is the "door" leading to new physics that we can't really guess about right now. Determining its characteristics could lead physicists beyond the brick wall they're facing on several fronts.

There are also way-out ideas: If the universe contains extra unseen dimensions, as some theorists have said, the LHC could create microscopic knots of energy that have been dubbed "mini-black holes" (virtually all physicists say they would disappear instantaneously). Some researchers claim that the LHC could create small closed timelike curves ... essentially, microscopic wormholes or time machines. Most physicists say that's pretty much science fiction, but there has been at least one paper written up about the idea:

http://arxiv.org/abs/0710.2696

As far as real-world applications ... well, that can't be predicted right now. But past advances in high-energy physics and engineering have led to new ways to see the universe (like space telescopes sensitive to various wavelengths) and new devices (like PET scanners and MRI scanners in hospitals). The engineering insights gained from the LHC could help other scientists tame fusion power, or discover entirely new sources of energy, or come up with new types of materials or sensors.

We'll delve into this a lot more in the coming weeks, but I did want to give folks a sense of why the LHC is important.

If you want to click through a presentation that explains particle physics step by step, you can check out the Particle Adventure:

http://particleadventure.org/frameless/startstandard.html

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Mark J. Dinkel — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 20:39:23 GMT

Einstein said that imagination is more important than knowledge. May the scientists at CERN invoke all the imagination of the doomsayers and seven times their caution given the knowledge of this machine's capabilities. See http://www.slac.stanford.edu/pubs/slacpubs/9000/slac-pub-9053.html
http://www.slac.stanford.edu/econf/C0507252/lec_notes/Webber/ webber.pdf

According to the below article, LHC will produce a black hole every second.

http://www.slac.stanford.edu/econf/C0507252/lec_notes/Webber/ webber.pdf

And, on this eve of the commissioning, is it too soon to start talking about the LHC's potential successors:
the International Linear Collider and, every physicist's dream, the Very Large Hadron Collider with more than 100 times the power of the Tevatron.

http://www.slac.stanford.edu/pubs/slacreports/slac-r-591.html

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Mark J. Dinkel — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 21:05:16 GMT

Hollywood Phil writes: "Hawking radiation "proves?" that black holes do radiate energy and decay over time". I find this bit of knowledge quite reassuring especially since the concepts of "Hawking radiation" and black hole entropy grew out of the professor's admission he was wrong in his intellectual battle with Leonard Susskind over the loss of information to black holes. See http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2004/07/21/hawking040721.html See also Susskind's new book "The Black Hole War, My Battle With Stephen Hawking to Make the World Safe for Quantum Mechanics"

The truth is that very little is known about black hole decay (other than purely theoretical projections)and that, for me, is an issue of great concern with regard to the LHC and its successors.

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T. Jones — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 21:46:54 GMT

Didn't something like this happen with the atom bomb...the fear that setting it off would destroy the world. Well, we're still here...several explosions here. I think this lawsuit is pointless. If they're worried about bringing the end of the world, man will do that one way or another. We seem to very adept at killing each other...for any reason at all.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Mike Lemonick, Princeton, NJ — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 21:53:46 GMT

I would love to see a story that for once examines the credentials of these plaintiffs. Dennis Overbye glossed over it in his stories. You mention it in passing. But despite bogus claims of "ad hominem" attacks, these characters are largely clueless about particle physics. That, in my opinion is the most important fact in this dispute. That should be the headline: "Clueless Dudes Pursue Clueless Lawsuit." Why anyone treats them with more respect than that baffles me.

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Mark F — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 21:55:58 GMT

Alan, James, you can actually see Dr. Plaga's paper refuted here: http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0808/0808.4087v1.pdf

And for the record, James over there has a habit of ignoring anything that doesn't agree with his arguments. I remember he was "schooled" by two major physicists in their blog not so long ago.

In any event, that's irrelevant. The LHC should not be stopped just due to some people's megalomania.

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Frank Glover, Rochester, NY — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 21:58:00 GMT

"We need to rule out the ability of anyone to study this sort of nonsense and to disassemble any facility that makes efforts in these areas.

It is sad the minds that are stuck in these cycles in various labs around the world working on the next great catastrophe."

Of course. We need to permit research only on relevant matters where we can apply the results to human well being and that pose absolutely no threat to mankind.

Like, um, biology...

(Just for those easily confused, that was sarcasm.)

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AZGIRL — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 22:19:17 GMT

AGAIN, THIS IS A GIGANTIC WASTE OF MONEY!!!

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Alan Boyle — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 23:18:41 GMT

Thanks, Mike: In the early stories I tried to provide a bit of background about Wagner and Sancho. Sancho is less involved in all this than Wagner is ... in fact, Sancho failed to sign off on some of the court filings and had to catch up with them later.

Sancho is a Spanish science writer who has what one could characterize as far-out ideas about cosmology. Here's his Web site:

http://www.unificationtheory.com

The domain registration for the site lists a New York address.

Wagner's undergraduate degree is in biology with a physics minor, from UC-Berkeley, and he did cosmic-ray research there (he says he is credited with discovery of a magnetic monopole, but the government filings contest that).

Wagner also has had long experience with court filings. One of the government's documents (which doesn't currently show up in the docket) noted that he has a law degree from the University of Northern California and was involved in a wide range of legal actions (and therefore, according to the government, had no excuse for late filings ... the judge allowed the filings to go forward).

Here's one article that focuses on his legal work:

http://thedeadhand.com/Journal/tabid/160/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/413/Lawyers-saving-the-world.aspx

And here's another that addresses a long-running case:

http://donnabader.com/?p=20

Wagner was a radiation safety officer for the Veterans Administration, and retired from that post. Then he taught science and math in California "for many years to grade school and college students."

He now lives in Hawaii, where he founded a botanical garden. That project has been the subject of legal action in recent years:

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2008/Feb/29/ln/hawaii802290352.html

As the article notes, there's a messy legal dispute between Wagner and the current operators of the garden.

I'm familiar with Wagner from his legal battle against the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider, and also wrote a story about his campaign against uranium tiles:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3077374/

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3077213/

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Patrick, Topeka KS — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 04:42:58 GMT

The potential "benefits" of the LHC are evident in the following article: "Scientists use particle accelerator to date wine" http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080903/sc_nm/france_wine_dc One small step for a wino, one great leap for all mankind. So we're all going to risk death - admittedly a small risk, but a real one - so some connoisseur can be certain of his alky's provenance. BTW I get really tired of the bogus cosmic ray argument. Cosmic rays generally don't impact head-on and they move at different velocities that result in any micro black hole being sent at thousands of miles per second. That means gravity won't capture them and they will pass harmlessly through the Earth and other celestial bodies. But the LHC will deliberately strike particles head-on AND at equal velocities. The consequence has to be that any resulting micro black hole will be at rest relative to the Earth and will be captured by Earth's gravity, descending literally to the center of the Earth, where accretion may be possible. As for "Hawking Radiation" that is sheer speculation (admittedly just as it is speculative that a micro black hole captured by Earth's gravity will accrete); but the difference is that if Hawking's speculation is wrong and a micro black hole forms and accretes we might all die. True, this probably won't happen, but at what point will we do some experiment that can and does kill us all? Safety standards have to be articulated, and not just by scientists. Even if some scientific Jor-El warned the scientific community of a hazard, he or she would probably be ignored. Not to mention silenced. The time to start developing and implementing safety standards may as well be now. All of us have the potential to be killed by a variety of experiments and ALL of us must have a voice.

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Henry Deacon — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 09:05:05 GMT

If there is any doubt whether this could bring about the Destruction of Our Earth... The ONLY world we have...

What gives Anyone the right to turn on this machine when no one will guarantee our safety??

I say. Shut the thing down.

Do Not Place Dice with My Planet.

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Steven Oliveira — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 09:43:50 GMT

As a Board Registered and practicing Nuclear Pharmacist (yes, it’s a real profession), I work every night with cyclotrons and particle accelerators. You may or may not consider me an expert, but you must admit I am familiar with the whole process. I am aware of all the “doomsday” scenarios and fear mongering and to that I ask “Why?” 8 years ago many thought the world would end, 40 years ago we would never make it to the moon, 50 years ago it was impossible to break the speed of sound, 63 years ago many were convinced we were going to “burn off the entire atmosphere”, 350 years ago, everyone thought the Earth was flat and you would fall off, and 1008 years ago everyone thought the world was going to end. Yet today, here we are. I do not believe; even at 100x the power that we could generate the forces needed for a “Black Hole”. Our own Sun couldn’t do it, it’s too small. Sadly I think this is more about ego than fact.

Steven Oliveira
I could put all titles here, but why bother.

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Steve Bracewell — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 12:27:49 GMT

I cannot believe all the negative comments about the LHC. The knowledge we gain from the LHC will advance science and technology in ways we cannot even imagine right now. All of you who say we should not turn on the LHC act as if understand quantum theory and mechanics. I wonder how many of you have benefited from MRI's, CAT Scans and nuclear medicine. Yes, science can be used for the wrong reasons, but I'm quite confident that the LHC will advance mankind's knowledge for the better.

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James,Morristown, NJ — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 13:40:24 GMT

Once you create a mini Black Hole, . . how do you get rid of it?
Maybe this is the super advanced machine that wiped all traces of Atlantis off the map.
Why would you take the chance of even plugging this thing in if there was even a SLIGHT chance of something bad happening?
As smart as Einstein was, it's a know fact that he had NO common sense and that he had trouble tying his shoes.....
This falls into that no common sense category.

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Mark J. Dinkel, Salina, Kansas — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 14:25:19 GMT

Previously posted the incorrect link for authority that the LHC will produce a black hole every second.
Here is the correct link:

http://www.slac.stanford.edu/econf/C010630/papers/P321.PDF

The real issue is entropy or rate of decay which is entirely based on projections emanating from a theory born out of an admittedly mistaken belief about the nature of black holes.

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I am tired of stupid people.... — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 14:29:41 GMT

seriously, people will believe anything they read these days, regardless of its validity, anyone who has any clue about what they are doing knows that there is as good a chance of them creating a "globe gobbling" black hole as there is of the sun exploding tomorrow, yea its possible, but its also possible that all the nuclear warheads on the planet will go off at the same time. Leave the science to the scientist, and lets worry about our own little part of the world.

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THE DOCTOR — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 14:35:23 GMT

You know what they said about the Titanic, it was unsinkable the safest ship in the world until a minor flaw in the system caused the death of so many.

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michelle, tahlequah, ok — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 14:39:00 GMT

I honestly don't think we could ever create enough energy to make a black hole. Do we really have that kind of power?

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Silver Tongue Sam — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 15:04:24 GMT

You know there were more than a few scientist that had reservations about detonating the first atomic bomb, something about creating a chain reaction in the atmosphere. Well that didn't happen, but safety is the better part of not being blown all to hell!

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Chet Walker, M.P.A., Montana — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 15:37:15 GMT

Whoa! I’m trying to find a bright side …if the “know it all crowd” invokes tragedy then the first thing consumed will be CERN and along with it a lot of newly identified idiots “More than likely thinking …Oops!”

On the other hand, if nothing catastrophic happens what’s next in the never ending search for critical understanding, to make the unknown-known? What will the new costs be? There are myriads of tangled tangible and intangible costs associated to this stuff? Like most of you, I can’t afford the stress and economic impact on my life. My voice falls on deaf ears as I forget that I’m but one of the billions in the great mass.

LHC-CERN appears to be a herd of techies try to find a “Fart in a Whirlwind!” They can smell something, but they just can’t see it …and it does stink.

On September 10th I’m going fishing, if crap happens, I’ll be having fun when time burns out! Sadly, my heart is too old and broken to consider ending it with sex.

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Don, Anderson, Indiana — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 15:46:25 GMT

It is amazing to see all your presuppositions colliding at quantum levels. Some are spoken, some are assumed. Lots of uncertainty is being detected.
• Universe is billions of years old
• Cosmic radiation has been colliding head-on for millennia
• We, the puny, haven’t seen any catastrophes from those collisions (in 20 years)
• We, the ignorant, want to up the anti (matter)
• We, the fallen, can be trusted with immense power
• The Titanic is unsinkable

Courts weigh doomsday claims

James, Leeds, UK. — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 16:14:37 GMT

I think this is far too bigger risk to take and utterly rediculous to invent something of this nature in the first place. Lets just say this does go wrong and people`s fears become reality, what then?? It is an inventors objective to create new and groundbreaking engineering, as we all know with no consideration at the time for human life, nuclear weapons, atomic weapons, guns etc. What goes through someone`s head when they invent something that could wipe out whole cities - "i know, lets make this", yet goverments fund this kind of thing. As long as they come out with the latest and newest toy right?! What about those affected though?! Lets just say the professors who oppose this do actually have the knowledge and understanding to know that this is a risk to lives on a mass scale, and are so strongly against it to the point of taking it to court. I would say we have something to worry about. Human life is not taken into consideration by inventors, by the people using the inventions and in general so whats the difference here?? The idiots in this case are to no exception so lets hope this doesnt go wrong as im pretty sure it will be going ahead. Oops!!

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Ed Baranosky, Toronto, ON — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 16:43:31 GMT

The problem is that backing off from a miscalculation
is not an option. I have heard the earth would have
at best a half hour. Regardless of the science, look
at other mistakes, like Chernoble, which compared to this is tiny. As for motives? I don't buy such an
airy theoretical basis for spending a half trillion.
The motives have exotic applicable technology in mind,
thus exotic power. I dare say they know what they're looking for, and it isn't any "God Particle," though
perhaps god-like capabilities inflame their egos.
And neither ethics nor morality is anywhere near
such decisions.

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Bonnie Darroch, Sudbury, Ontario — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 16:51:14 GMT

Now this is very interesting....
http://www.williamhenry.net/art_dis-cerning.html

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Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 19:43:27 GMT

I dare say that if the quantum time machine (closed timelike curvature) occures then the past will be immediately altered and we'll be back to the future.

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Alex Blake — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 20:39:17 GMT

Relax! Scientists never make mistakes.

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Phil Scalzo, CT — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 21:49:20 GMT

Great Story. Just think, if they do create a black hole and it does eat the earth we will no longer have to hear about Britney Spears and Anjolie and Pitt. LOL I say let her rip!!! Start it up.

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Michael Noonan — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 22:29:57 GMT

While the article says 7 times more powerful that applies to protons. When lead is introduced that figure reads 500 times more powerful.

It is the same machine. It is presented with a smaller figure than what it will really do in a couple of years. Is that an honest way to introduce a machine 500 times more powerful than anything ever built?

[ALAN ADDS: Aha, you're talking about the ALICE experiment. For about a month out of each year, the LHC will switch from colliding protons to colliding lead ions. The Tevatron doesn't do heavy ions, just protons and antiprotons, so it doesn't provide a good comparison. The correct comparison would be with the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider, which is at Brookhaven and smashes gold ions. RHIC has a peak collision energy of 200 GeV per nucleon pair, while the LHC will produce lead-ion collisions at 5.5 TeV per nucleon pair. That means the peak collision energy for ALICE will be roughly 30 times the collision energy for RHIC, as outlined here:]

http://cerncourier.com/cws/article/cern/34261

[I'm not sure where the "500 times" figure comes from ... that may have been drawn from a look at lower collision energies for RHIC. Or perhaps there's something about relativistic effects that is added to the formulas at some point. But I hope we've been able to shed a little more light on the LHC/RHIC comparison, and why it's different from the LHC/Tevatron comparison. The ALICE collisions are not projected to create globe-gobbling black holes whether you look at the RHIC or Tevatron comparison, although the plaintiffs in the current suit would likely disagree with that view. Follow the link below for more about "black holes" and RHIC:]

http://www.bnl.gov/rhic/black_holes.htm

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Bob ROck — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 01:51:02 GMT

Who cares i say give it full power, this is the shot in the arm that particle theorists have been waiting for, not to mention the rest of the scientific world. If it does go BANG do you really think you are going to feel it? and besides the cosmos has been emmiting energy that could dwarf the LHC even in our own solar system.

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Tom,NY — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 02:42:15 GMT

Do it already. Nothing ventured nothing gained. Whats the worst that could happen? If your dead your dead what would you have to care for?

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Michael Noonan — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 04:49:34 GMT

I found this rather helpful site that described the pb-pb lead to lead collisions as having center of mass collisions in the order of 1150 TeV. http://www.iop.org/EJ/article/1367-2630/9/9/335/njp7_9_335.pdf?request-id=b9b6d39a-3ed3-47fa-bdc0-8044a5a11678

The information is on page 2 just after the introduction. It is more like the impact energy difference between the mass of a sports car and the mass of a freight train. I hope that helps, cheers.

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Brad D. — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 05:17:53 GMT

So sad, looks like all hope is lost. Just to think that chances are by this time next week, the Earth will cease to exist. I can proudly say that I did all that I could to prevent this catastrophe from launching. Too bad so few of us actually care about our planet, our children, humanity, and life in general enough to do anything about it. Such a shame...

If any of you have ANY sense, you will keep your children home next Wednesday and cherish your final moments with them. I know I will.

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Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 06:08:03 GMT

Patrick,
With as many cosmic rays as there are out there it seems almost certain that there would have been head on collisions in the proper energy range that resulted in less that solar escape velocity products in the past 3 or 4 billion years. If nature doesn't create MBHs theres no reason to think we can just because we're using a lab, so no worries. If nature has created MBHs in any abundance and they're actually a problem then we should have black hole planets orbiting our black hole sun. Not the case, so evidently, no worries. The evidence I walk on and the evidence that rises over the horizon each morning says that either MBHs aren't created or they are created but pose no threat.

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Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 06:32:35 GMT

Also,
This is just another article in a long line about this subject. Many are for the LHC and many are opposed. Most who are opposed don't understand what's going on and are alarmed because of some of the questions that have been raised. A few are opposed even with a good level of knowledge. A lot of people strike out against those against, some pretty harshly. Some are for the LHC and have a good level of knowledge. Most of the people who are for it don't seem to have any better understanding of it than most who are opposed. And these people ridicule others because others don't understand and also others who do understand. This does something between baffling me and turning my stomach. Of the two I'd rather listen to ignorance yelling caution. I'm far from stupid and it took a while before I had any assurance this posed no serious risk. It's not like it's casually obvious. I'd hate to think that when someone wants to surface test a proton bomb that the people in charge would take the same casual attitude a lot of people on this blog do now. (The inference being that a proton bomb will do some serious damage.)

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C.Allen — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 08:10:14 GMT

I think there is more to this than whats being reported.
Consider the race (between the US and the EU) to complete new and larger colliders.... Billions in monetary expenditures for science to simply find a "God Particle" and increase scientific understanding of physics? What are the benefits (read returns)for such huge investments? Alchemy perhaps?
Sounds a bit like an arms race.
Manhattan/Philadelphia project anyone? LOL
Seriously though..............think about it.

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Michael Noonan, Perth Australia — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 15:01:59 GMT

Brad D. The power being introduced is a low power test run. There are many different levels of luminosity that can be worked at. Variations in the numbers of protons per bunch collided and timing between the collisions just for a start. If anything goes wrong it is just as likely to break the machine itself. Even if micro black holes form it may be millions or billions of years before we would notice them if were stable.

The point is more like should scientists be given approval for projects that carry the risk of causing such public concern. Scientists may be more comfortable with some levels of risk for the sake of knowing more about their theories. Maybe there is a public level of risk that should not be crossed.

I do not want this machine to be switched on so I am writing on various forums and have sent letters to politicians and made a police report so they have a record of the start date. Our police hadn't even heard of the project but that is not surprising, I live in Australia. The risk ... I haven't the faintest idea of how to rate the risk. Nobody knows that.

Should our politicians have approved building it? Well that time has gone because it is built. Maybe we are past the point of should it be run at all because that was all approved in the proposal back in the early 1980's.

Cherish every moment you can with your kids is always a great idea. The start of a great life is not the end of the world.

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Matthew Maidens, Grimsby, England — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 18:56:34 GMT

Theres a 1 in 50 million chance it will kill us all, but i still dont think its worth the risk.

[ALAN ADDS: Most physicists say the chance is next to nothingness. Say, one out of a septillion or so. As someone previously stated, the chance of the sun suddenly exploding into a red giant tomorrow and killing us all is higher.]

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Michael Noonan — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 01:33:31 GMT

Thanks Matthew and Alan. I worry about the things that responsible scientists might not think about. A black hole is very highly charged electrically. There is so much science that is not yet understood. What if a terrorist group found a way to harness the huge electrical charge to attract the micro black hole into a city.

OK that sounds strange but there is still stuff on the net with things like a Tesla experiment caused Tunguska. A massively electrical point source could totally disrupt communications or harm people if controllable. How do we know this is not the weapon of the next Unibomber or Alkieda or rouge terrorist nation?

Scientists will by nature try and assess the safe and responsible use of technology but how does anyone prevent the harmful use by an organization that would not have had access if the micro black hole was not created in the first place.

That is an extreme example and assumes that Hawking radiation fails to allow the black hole to dissolve. The density difference would mean that any such object would treat any substance as little more that a thin gas, even rock. Sure scientists are not planning to harm society but not everyone in this world has such high altruistic standards.

Are we really ready for this ... beyond the science what do we know and fear of ourselves.

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Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 03:02:29 GMT

A famous physicist and thoughts about using the word God. So..tone down the "God particle" moniker will ya ?

http://www.meta-library.net/transcript/wein-body.html

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Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 06:32:18 GMT

This is a photo of a real particle collision at an energy far below the LHC. Each track defines what the colliding particles contain or at least..produce. It gives a snap shot of the smallest detectable "things" that exist or are somehow brought into existence. Science really does need to dig deeper.

http://maltwood.uvic.ca/physics/Libraries/imagelibrary/28-50low.jpg

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Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Sun, 07 Sep 2008 01:32:27 GMT

A short quiz:

What happens when a hyper-massive black hole collapses due to excessive intake of material and it begins to exceed its own event horizon in radius?

a) You get quite a big bang.

b) Even more gods are invented.

c) Both.

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Ramesh Tavare,Santa Fe,NM — Sun, 07 Sep 2008 19:42:46 GMT

I am an ordinary person and I do not know much about physics. But I want to express my humble thinking about the worlds most adventurous experiment called LHC.
Before I begin I want to go back 14 billion years and try to imagine the situation prevailed at that time in simple and easy to understand language.
1) the entire universe what we see now was having the size of a single dot.
2) explosion happend in that dot sized thing and within fraction of second this universe is formed.
3)if this theory called Big Bang is true then naturally I have some questions which may or may not throw light on current LHC experiment.
question#1) How meny dot sized such particles were there having the same potential of undergoing Big bang.
Question#2)assuming there were many such dot sized particles, then what happened to them.
Question#3)Which space those particles contained in .
I am assuming That the space would be different than the space occupied by our universe. That distinguses that our universe has the dimenssions of its own.
Now assuming that our universe is formed by a dot sized particle U1. And assuming there was cluster of paricles U1,U2,U3......Un. And Assuming most of them undergone the BIG BANG then some of space might have occupied in common giving rise to multiple dimenssions for that common space.
Question#4) Is our universe participating in sharing the space with other universe?
Question#5) Can we exapand two or more gas molecules and prove that they are sharing the space without forming the bond between them?
Question#6) If not then universes U1,U2,U3......Un may or may not have space in common. or they might have collision between them moving away from each other.
Question #7) It is clear that Universes have their own boudaries and as long there is a space between them original BIG BANG force is stil active the universes are going to expand.
Question #8) This is the most important and we need to know the answer. What is the difference between those dot sized paticles and protons which we are going to be used for LHC? assuming that their sizes are equal. if answer is yes then we got the problem and if answer is no then BIG BANG theory is correct.And experiment may lead to Creating microscopic(nano scale) universes but its harmful effects to human beings can not be predicted by any known or unkown technologies.

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Vlad P, Cluj, Romania — Sun, 07 Sep 2008 21:52:35 GMT

If it wasn't for science, there wouldn't be a human race today.

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

I say fire it up... I trust them.

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Phil Byrne, Armidale, NSW Australia — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 04:45:24 GMT

Howdy folks,
Well its all pretty interesting - discussions about possibility of black holes forming. They might if the energy threshhold is sufficient to "tear" a hole in the space-time "surface". But another thing to consider is that black holes don't exist on their lonesome - they have a partner, usually large stars; what goes in must come out and all that. Black holes are "coupled" to "stars" which are the other end. Once formed black holes suck in material which is then ejected from very large stars. In the case of CERN the black hole will be so small (if it forms) and the energy it re-radiates will also be very small and very short lived and may not be detected. But if there is a small ejection of gamma rays this will be from the black hole/mini-star (in this case not self sustaining).

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Fiona Berry, Uxbridge, England — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 11:04:39 GMT

I see this as similar to a child destroying a toy to find out how it works. I am not sure why scientists prefer to work on potentially disastrous projects like this one rather than solving the undoubted problems of our age like how to cope with a rising sea level and increasing floods, how to feed the world and how to avoid freezing or frazzlings as the result of climate change, whether that's caused by man or nature.

That there are differences in opinion among scientists on all subjects is well known and probably faciliates progress... but in some circumstances one has to ask whether the risk that is being taken will be worth the return. In this case, even if the risk is established to be infinitesimally small, I am not sure that a group of scientists who are bound up in the pursuit of this knowledge should have been able to decide for all of us whether the risk is one worth taking. In the 1940s I'd have probably felt that way about the nuclear bomb too.

When laypeople question the drive to do new things they are made to look ignorant and stupid, but I think that many ordinary people would hesitate to sanction many of the things which are done in the name of science today, not from a lack of education but from an excess of humanity.

Scientists, for example, ridiculed the doctor who claimed that transmission of Bovine Spongiform Encephalitis from mother to calf was possible, and that therefore transmission to humans was also possible. They had to eat their words later, when it was proven that he had been entirely correct. Scientists can be as wrong about anything as anyone. If they're wrong about this, I presume none of us will be around the care.

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Don, Anderson, Indiana — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 15:00:36 GMT

It is amazing to see all these presuppositions colliding at quantum levels. Some are spoken, some are assumed. Lots of uncertainty is being detected.
1. The Universe is billions of years old
2. Cosmic radiation has been colliding head-on for millennia
3. We, the puny, haven’t seen any catastrophes from those collisions (in 20 years)
4. We, the ignorant, want to up the anti (matter)
5. We, the fallen, can be trusted with immense power
6. Even God can’t sink the Titanic

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Beckwolf, Johnson City, TN — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 15:20:08 GMT

"have not adequately addressed the idea that the LHC could create globe-gobbling microscopic black holes or other catastrophes such as matter-wrecking strangelets or magnetic monopoles. They're calling for further safety reviews to be conducted."

The problem with these guys is that they don't actually know what a black hole does. They're filing claims that this is dangerous without showing an understanding of the facts regardings that "dangerous" possibility. What do we know about black holes and their formations? They are strings, not sucking in anything as I saw someone post here. Strings of antimatter that absords nearby matter and forms into pure energy, which then breaks apart. On a large scale, large sections of black holes can absord matter, which is what we see with black holes in space seeming to suck in light. On a microscopic scale, the timeline shrinks. The life of a black hole is very dependent on its size. In the case of a miniscule black hole, there would be a slight pop and nothing left to view. Most likely, there wouldn't even be anything visible, it would be gone so fast, which is why they need such high caliber sensors to even see if one forms. The potential benefits, including strong medical benefits, FAR outweigh any risks, especially with doomsday scenarios themselves so easily debunked.

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Gaeus, Alexandria, VA — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 15:24:46 GMT

So these LHC will destroy Earth and we are going to be awallowed by the Black Hole? LOL!!!! So I guess aliens will come and eat us all. Probably, Chuck Norries will do some Kick on the side to stop them. Geez, what kind of coments am i getting here. I can't believe people are getting crazy. Did we ever comment on the Manhattan Project on how dangerous it is? NO! WE DID NOT! SO WHY ARE YOU PEOPLE THINK THIS IS BAD? BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW HOW ADVANCED PHYSICS WORKS AND YOU THINK YOU ARE BETTER THAN THEM!!!

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Beckwolf, Johnson City, TN — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 15:30:46 GMT

"Why am I paying fo this when my country is in recession and my pay scales keep going down? It seems a terrible waste of money for something that will be used only a few times. Is this why we are in recession?"

No, this is not something to be used just a few times. Particle acceleration is a practice that has been conducted for years and years. This will simply push them faster than before. Now if you look back at history, many of the things you see today are a direct result of particle acceleration tests. Your television, your microwave, dozens of medical treatments and procedures with tens of thousands of lives saved, lives that would have ended without the benefits provided by that research.

To answer the whole question about a recession...first, I don't know what country you're in, so I make the assumption that you're in the US. If you are in the US, then your recession comment is incorrect anyway. A recession requires multiple periods of negative growth in succession. The LAST period of negative growth was seen during the Clinton administration, and none have existed since then. Growth doesn't necessarily benefit the people, so while you may suffer and times can even get worse (which right now they're improving quite a bit, food prices down for many items to lower than seen in almost a decade, such as milk at barely over $3 a gallon, some of the cheapest gas in the world, blue collar industries seeing HUGE job increases along with rising pay scales, etc.), it doesn't signal a recession. But if we were in a recession, this wouldn't be why. Ten billion dollars for this project, LESS than the MONTHLY, that's right monthy, ethanol subsidy provided in the country, and equal to the monthly subsidy provided to the three major ethanol corporations (even though their profit percentages are in the double digits higher than oil has ever seen, which in reaily isn't too hard since oil is one of the least percent profitable industries in existence, high profits shown simply because of volume sold, which also translates to record costs).
So this huge project costing what we pay in only one month to ethanol corporations, which isn't even five percent of wasted funds divied in the country. Easy answer here...NO, this has nothing to do with any poor economic times you might see, the funding isn't enough to be construed as a scratch in our budget, but the benefits could be tens of thousands more lives saved.

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Van, Bloomington, IL — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 15:36:07 GMT

The admission by Ellis that the CERN collider is in competition with the Fermi lab is very interesting. It suggests that the scientists in Europe just might be willing to overlook risks of a super catastrophe in order to be the first to discover something new. You know, if you're going to play God (as modern scientists do), you need to give top priority to survival of the planet.

[ALAN ADDS: I think that was Jos Engelen rather than John Ellis who discussed the competition with Fermilab. Yes, there is competitiveness between teams over making the big discoveries. But on the other hand, it was Engelen and his colleagues on the CERN management team who decided to delay startup by a year because of safety concerns ... specifically, about magnets that needed a redesign.]

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Joe Smith, Santa Fe, New Mexico — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 15:45:24 GMT

Go baby, go!

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Marty, Gravois Mills, MO — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 15:50:00 GMT

Hmm, I see Many opinons written here and that is good but it seems that in general people have forgotten that in all science is risk all the way back to the discovery of fire. All our technology has come from those risks. It is foolish to beleive there is no risk here, or that this or that thing can or can't happen. the people who are doing this cannot tell you for certain what will happen, they are guessing just as the detractors are. The fact of the matter is that without trail and error there is no advancement and without advancement we stagnate and everyone should know what happens when something stagnates, It slowly dies off. So in honor of the long standing risks of science, hold your nose close your eyes and jump in the pool.

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Linda — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 15:55:52 GMT

Science is a need but scientists do not have the right to decide if you want to live or die for anybody. When something of this magnitude affects everyone in the world WE then have the right to say NO.

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Jackie — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 16:00:05 GMT

I heard this originally on the morning show on 105.1. Interesting, but kinda scary. Scientist could cause world destruction very soon. They turn the machine on Wednesday.

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Jorge Cervantes, Pittsburgh, PA — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 16:12:16 GMT

Incredible...

It's incredibly amusing that people keep talking about all these "Scientists" being against the LHC, yet are never actually able to name anyone with any credence in that field of physics... or even physics at all, as far as I've seen.

The man behind the Hawaii lawsuit is a nuclear safety officer... What he's doing is comparable to a high school educated janitor telling Microsoft's top IT experts not to write a database because it could erase tha Intarwebs!

The most credible name/title I've seen amongst the detractors is Doctor Plaga, and she doesn't even want them to stop the LHC, just to try to detect more than they are (despite the fact that 1: it's been shown as not necessary, and 2: CERN's instruments can't do what she's asking even if it actually made some sort of difference).

People, get over yourselves. There will be no doomsday. Just like the last super-collider, the scientists will not only turn out to be right at a field they've devoted their whole lives and enormous IQs to studying... the experiments will probably result in a new wave of technological spin-offs. Last time, we got the internet (amongst many other things), can anyone not be excited about what will come of this time around?

And, I know it's been stated many times before, but I'll say it again: Mankind does NOT have the energy to create a self-sustaining blackhole. If that kind of energy could be generated so easily, the SUN would have collapsed in on itself long before the earth even started to come together...

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Mike, South Carolina — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 16:13:51 GMT

Has there ever been anything "Science" has told us was safe that was later found out not to be? If so, what makes this unlike the others?

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Gimena, Puerto Rico — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 16:16:56 GMT

So you know how the Big Bang happened. How is that going to improve our lives, at the risk of losing everything because NOBODY knows the outcome of this experiment. I hope this is not the way for those Scientists to finally convince themselves that God is really waiting for us on the other side! And Sept 10 was the day before 911!

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Chrys, Harrisburg PA — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 16:42:26 GMT

If this supercollider destroys the world, then we don't have to worry about the November '08 election. That makes me happy.

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rodger d morehead city nc — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 17:03:01 GMT

I think the real problem is that we really won't know if the LHC is safe to operate until it is in full operation and then it may be too late if it's not. Just as we won't know if the benifits will outway the cost until after the fact. Oh I guess it is after the fact for the cost.

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cynthia coble — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 17:19:52 GMT

What else is there, but the pursuit of truth? I don't know that there exsists a reason why we are here, but science and quantum physics at the very least make the experience interesting and fun, in my opinion. I'm thankful for the minds that are driven to this....

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Bernard Smith Canada — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 17:22:33 GMT

I believe (a theological construct, not a scientific one) that the big bang bagan the cretion of the universe. Adam and Eve are but symbolic representatives of the theological world's interpretation of the creation of man (and woman). It is an interesting dialogue that we need have over the origins of our uiverse. We must delve further and further into our origins to prove our theories and claim our inheritance as beings of the cosmos.

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Clark Whiting — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 17:22:52 GMT

This "issue" only highlights the problem with rampant technology growth. We (Man) continuously dabble in things what we only have the barest of understanding with in the name of exploration. In the last thousand years or so this attitude has served us well, but the stakes get higher and at an exponential rate. It is only a matter of time where we make some huge fatal "mistake", whether it is an Earth-eating black hole, or some genetically altered super-bug, or poisoning our World's food supply with genetic mutations. Our intellectual arrogance will catch up with us at some point. Why not now at CERN? It's probably perfectly safe. Probably.

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Brian Losee, Danbury, Ct. — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 17:27:10 GMT

Has anyone considered the fact that all these questions and more were asked and the answers given (subject to peer review, no less) both before and throughout this project? The only reason for the court cases pending is that a few (2) less than average scientists(?) felt they were "dissed". This is the legal equivalent of "Mommy, they're ignoring me!" And to the person who asked about the cure for cancer, ever noticed how cancer rates have gone up the more we poison our enviroment? Doctors and other researchers are fighting hard against a many tentacled foe but the truth is we've done it to ourselves. Or, maybe, it's just the next step in evolution!

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Hk, Melbourne, FL — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 17:30:26 GMT

We are but a small speck in the universe to think that we can create some thing as destructive as a black hole on planet Earth is plausible, but take in to consideration to how much energy that is out there to create a massive black hole put things into perspective that what the scientists are doing is miniscule. I agree with the Scientist of CERN. They are conducting this experiment in the most safest manner possible. Realistically, if this was a natural occurrance then we would know by now how dangerous this is be seeing it occurring around us in the universe. Knowing this, a black hole may be created but its lasting effects will be short lived because it does not have the massive energy and sustance needed to sustain it as one would find out in space.

Particles are flying around us out in space at the speed of light, why haven't we see it happen more frequently?

The idea that these scientist's doesn't care about the out come of this is rediculous and are doing this to destroy the planet is silly. They have some idea, but are careful enough not to cross the line that they can't reap the benefit because they killed themselves and destroy the planet in the process is totally science fiction.....why would any one want to find something scientific and reap the millions of dollars and fame from this only to kill themselves in the process.....

And keep in mind, there are thousands of businesses and scientist involved in this project, there no Dr. Evil or mad scientist, or even one derange individual to loose control....yes we are human to be insane, but we are also human to be a safe as possible....there fail safe systems in place.

Worst case scenario, we all die...what do you actually think we are the only life form in the universe. Christians will go to heaven to finally meet their maker or God will save them. This will only accelerate their destiny. All will find the meaning of life soon. We will find the truth that we are all searching for...or maybe not.

Then again, we come this far....we will only go further from here.....

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Paul, Burnt HIlls NY — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 17:41:21 GMT

So what happens when this thing is fired up and we have 10,000 times earths gravity tugging on this 17 mile property?
are we going to wobble the orbit?

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Paul, Burnt HIlls NY — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 17:46:51 GMT

Wouldnt it be interesting if one day we can look far enough out to see that our universe is inside a large collider and that we are just part of a larger experiment

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Michael Terry, Oxford, Ga. — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 18:01:48 GMT

And just think, yesterday all we had to worry about Rogue states and Nukes. Now we have to worry about Safe states and Idiots. "can't we just all get along?" Some things are better off in their own little corner of space and time.

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Chris, Kansas City, Mo — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 20:10:18 GMT

My only concern here is what is unknown. Not known unknowns but unknown unknowns. You can not effectively manage risk if you don't even know what those risks are. Something like high energy phsics just has not been around long enough to warrant such a poor reward to risk ratio on an experiment. It seems to me we're taking this whole idea that man needs to understand his environment a little too far. The upside is that we may get a few answers that will excite about 20 people in world. The downside is that the world gets sucked into a black hole. Hmmmm...no thanks.

I all about scientific discovery, though. And I bet the concerns are for the most part baseless reactions made out of ignorance. It just seems like there are still too many unknowns to warrant such a low yielding experiment when we consider the downside. Remember this: scientific progress is made by previous errors. It has been estimated that 80% of what "science" has given us has been proven erroneous. I wish I had a source on that.

[ALAN ADDS: I think the actual finding is something like this: "Statistical studies show that 80 percent of statistical studies are erroneous." ;-) ]

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Monica v.Fedak, Malaga, Spain — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 20:17:17 GMT

I dont know, this whole affair doesnt seem a great idea to me. What's it good for? Better medicines, more food? Better environment?? Just a big effort at a huge cost to prove/unprove a scientific theory?? Well I personally do not a-prove....at all

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eric — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 21:17:58 GMT

I think they should've built this thing in Washington D.C. Then if a black hole was created all the B.S. could plug it up.

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Norm, St. Louis, MO — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 22:29:32 GMT

No one would be around to laugh, but wouldn't it be the most sublime joke if we blew up the world trying to find out how it all got started. What a bunch of screw ups we are. It could happen!

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Steve Clarke, Birmingham UK. — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 23:17:29 GMT

Since the problem with "Black holes" is their gravity, Would it not make more sense to pause this project for a few years, and chuck a bit of money at Podkletnov, Ning Li and Huchison, all of whom have demonstrated a link between electromagnetic fields and gravity. Once we have mastered gravity, then the danger presented by a black hole would possibly be manageable, and we'd get some immediately really useful technology, into the bargain!

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Devin Waters payette Id — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 00:46:04 GMT

My question is ? There is alot of talk about black holes. Now iam not so smart about things like this so i would hope some one can explain it. But if blackholes genraly are out side the atmosphere. And in space where there is no weight. what happens when we make blackholes on earth where weight is an issue. and we are surounded by an atmosphere.

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Will Monif — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 01:21:16 GMT

Does anyone remember why Adam and Eve got kicked out of the Garden of Eden? Possibly creating tiny black holes while exploring the Mystery of the Universe and hypothetical "God particle" sounds a little like eating from the tree of knowledge when Adam and Eve were warned not to? It is for the sake of knowledge, regarding a mystery about everything should be okay according to current theories which might be overturned. Groan. Those who don't learn from History...

William Monif, Omaha, W1LM@aol.com

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John Doe — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 02:00:53 GMT

Muons and quarks and black holes...OH MY!

I like cheese.

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average joe — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 04:22:55 GMT

Ok another scenerio - suppose absolutely nothing happens.... oopsy 10 billion dollars what a deal

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average joe — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 04:25:03 GMT

Well if it doesn't work maybe they could use it as a paint mixer

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average joe — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 04:30:02 GMT

We could also throw all our plastic into the black hole thereby saving us from the global warming! yay !

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Jeremy Warren — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 04:57:30 GMT

...you people are...well...how to put this...you care about the wrong things. you care about an atom smasher so much you wanns stop it because you think you will all die? get real...you need to focus on the finer things in life. How about the ethnic wars in africa...starvation..,etc so on so forth. instead you're sitting in your air conditioned apartments worrying about something harmless. sissys I tell you...

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William — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 06:48:34 GMT

I read that the atoms smashing will have the energy of two high speed locomotives hitting head on and yet they say there is a microscopic amount of energy in the miniature black hole and it is reliant on the amount of energy that created it. In addition it is my understanding that when they smash these atoms the heat generated will exceed a trillion degrees. They are not being truthful. The energy must go somewhere! So why would it not have enough energy to interact with other atoms and get larger?

[ALAN ADDS: William, the issue is scale. The maximum energy from one proton-on-proton collision will be on the scale of the energy a mosquito expends in flight, but concentrated on a subatomic scale. So a tiny, tiny, tiny volume of space would be heated up to a trillion degrees. You wouldn't feel it, believe me. The bullet-train analogy comes about when you consider the bunches of billions and billions of protons that slam into each other in the beam pipe. So each collision is a small amount of energy, concentrated on a vanishingly small scale. But it adds up to a blast of radiation you wouldn't want to be around. That's why they clear all the people out of the underground complex before they fire it up.]

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Doug — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 07:56:45 GMT

Will, scientists havent believed in the hypothesis of biblical creation now for a long time.

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Doug — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 08:01:37 GMT

Devin, they would instantly suck up the earth and probably our solar system to boot. But hey, no guts no glory eh?

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Paul Ferreira — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 08:26:36 GMT

What I would really like, and probably never get, is a totally rational explanation of the benefits, and I emphasize, benifits of such an experiment? I have read material regarding such sciences, but at the end of the day, a lot of individuals have labelled this as a majorly ground breaking science.

So, if, we tomorrow, find Higgs to be correct. Or if we find/create black holes, extra dimensions, etc. How will that benefit me? OR humand kind. I would like tangible answers. And knowing how universe was born just doesnt seem to be a justifiable answer. Or should it be? Can someone elaborate?

4 Billion dollars is a LOT of money. And if we do find success. How mmuch further are we going to go? How much more money will be spent? And how much richer will the broader world be for that. Perhaps we have lost complete sense of reality? Or is it just me?

Someone. PLease just give me one benefit that means something to me or us Africans!

[ALAN ADDS: I try to address this issue in this story:]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24556999

Courts weigh doomsday claims

steve gumm, LONDON, UK — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 10:14:45 GMT

Man has freedom of will, God will never stop man from doing anything. Man should think before putting his Mouth or his own creation into gear.
Trouble is, curiosity... God gave, and let us use, that too!

Courts weigh doomsday claims

sw-central asia — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 10:33:34 GMT

Hello??!!! Where are all you guys that harp about "carbon footprints" and polar ice caps melting?!!! Think about the footprint this thing will leave behind. We really are hypocrites! Will the real Al Gore please stand up! I also want to know which country is willing to allow its power grid to supply the energy this thing is going to need to keep it up and running.
When so many are going without food and shelter and families are still being told their babies won't live another day, this all seems pretty senseless. It is somewhat paradoxical because the "life" they hope to create disregards all life that already exists.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Åke Lundén, Stockholm — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 11:24:27 GMT

Could you please toy with somebody elses planet. I dont need to know this. Five thousand scientists stating that it is dangerous is quiet enough not to do it ín my book. If scientists knew what would happend they wouldnt do the experiment. Remember that all the smart men in history argued based upon all facts that the earth was flatt. Stop stop stop stop

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Brett — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 16:14:21 GMT

Have we not destroyed enough of this plannet and space with our good stuff we REALLY need? When is enough, ENOUGH?

Courts weigh doomsday claims

NicM — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 17:55:36 GMT

Oh my, so many people on here are the reason we need better science programs in American schools.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Gphillip — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 18:07:55 GMT

To put this into perspective, at full power the colliding protons will have about the energy of a flying mosquito. The protons are not anything to lose sleep over. The mosquito however can be quite anoying.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Corcern Tax Payer — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 19:14:59 GMT

I don't understand something we have kids dying overseas, people are dying of all types of diseases, and my tax dollars is being us to create dark matter! Who cares about how black holes come about? I don't and certainly that little boy or girl dying in the hospital. Please people put our tax dollars to use for the common good not trying to end the world as we know it because you want to prove something. Impress me...find a cure for AIDS, crib death, common cold and even the flu. Have we lost touch of what is really important? Folks Black holes are unstable...don't believe the hype on there safety.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Claudia Patel Spicewood, TX — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 19:28:19 GMT

I don't believe there is any scientist, no matter how smart, no matter how many degrees or experience he or she has, that can absolutely guarantee that nothing disasterous will happen if this "EXPERIMENT" takes place tomorrow. I feel like a little white mouse in a trap with no way out, no way to protect myself from whatever might be the outcome of this project. It should not be allowed to happen.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Danny Doe — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 19:47:11 GMT

hello, Austin Powers?

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Disgusted — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 19:59:39 GMT

Wow, people. Don't call it the search for the "God Particle" and the religious right become un-interested. Note that the LHC cost $10 billion over 14 years from many countries, and the US spends over $600 Billion a year on the defence budget, and that should tell people why we are in a recession. If things were "better left unknown" we might still be hanging, burning, and drowning women by the millions, like in the "Dark Ages", because is there any other way? Faith is believing 1+1=2, faith is believing that smarter people than you have crunched the numbers ten ways from Sunday, progress is letting go of your silly fears and thinking beyond your timeframe, for the advancement of man, not your pocketbook. Progress is understanding our universe, not hiding from it. The aliens are coming, the aliens are coming! Give me a break.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Sean, Las Vegas, NV — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 20:07:50 GMT

I really hope this does destroy the planet, or at least the human race. Time to start over with the cockroaches. If it wasn't for science and people studying it you wouldn't have the internet to post your inane, fear incensed babble on. Or the electricity or light bulb. For the doomsayers, if I had a dime for everytime you have been wrong about the end of the world...
Do you people keep predicting it hoping you will eventually get it right or what.
Alan, great articles, keep up the good work.

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Bev, Trenton, Mi. — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 20:48:27 GMT

Does any thing we say on this make any difference? Scientist will do what they want no matter what. They always do.They have this thing about playing God. One day they will get to meet him through one of their dumb tricks, unfortunately, so will we.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

martin ejankowski, west yorkshire, united kingdom — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 21:11:41 GMT

i think that the scientist that have spent along time buidling this machine have done what they thought was right for the right reasons but in my eyes they are powering up a machine that they really dont know what it does this is shree madness like something from a james bond film crackers.
you all have some very valid points but i would not like to contemplate something going wrong on the otherside of the world and my children and loved ones suffering some dreadful fate for the shree act of wanting to know.
all the media and the scientists say this is safe but the amount of billions spent on this project is unjustifed , what reason do we need to know about this atom that will be a biproduct of this experiment.
what will it achive , what will it contribute towards the human species will it cure world hunger , global warming , will help to reproduce water will it give us longer lives what will it do ..... because nobody along the lines has said what it will do BECAUSE NOBODY KNOWS WHAT WILL HAPPEN STOP THIS MADNESS NOW!!!

Courts weigh doomsday claims

DB Las Vegas, NV — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 22:30:46 GMT

So maybe this is a dumb question from someone with a limited education on this subject, But.. Doesn't time start to go backwards when you pass the speed of light? Does that mean that if their speed is off by 0.02 the speed of light they could "unbang" the Big Bang? Rather than rip a hole in space-time, wouldn't a reversal of these forces condence all existing mass on Geniva?

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Patty, New York, NY — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 22:43:55 GMT

We can invent it but can we control it? Is there a particular group that would want to get their hands on this to control the universe?(LIke how bad guys are trying to get their hands on a nuclear bomb?) How considerate for these scientists to use all our existance as variables in the experiment! Switzerland has always been an island unto themselves when it comes to world politics, but now what they are doing could involve our entire planet? The guys filing the lawsuits are better versed than I on this issue, so if they want it stopped, I'll have to side with them. I find it hard to believe a scientist as smart as to file a lawsuit or write negative words about this amazing project would stop something as spectacular as this if there weren't any doubt. Okay, so "the Manhattan Project" didn't bring about the end of the world... and I have my suspicions as to why it had to be made underground...and that so many people were in on it, the old adage, too many cooks spoil the pot...see you all on the other side

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Lincolns Liberty — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 23:59:37 GMT

We have all heard of the scientists explaination for the begining of the universe as the BIG BANG THEORY, where our Universe started from nothing, that is no Mass,no Matter, just a spark.
What if our Universe is like a single body, with many cells, and some time in the past, a civalizastion similar to ours was experimenting in the same way ours are, to find the origins of "GOD", and the answers as to where it all started.
What if they were trying to find the single bond which holds everything together, and they produced another empty cell "UNIVERSE" with their machines,and a large amount of mass matter was transported via a tunnel into this empty cell "UNIVERSE" to produce our own UNIVERSE as we know it today.
This would answer the fact that the missing sixty percent of the unknown elements which cannot be found in our Universe was left behind when the trans-formation from the previous Universe into ours took place.
Also, the fact that questions scientists belief that when Anti- matter meets positive matter they are suppose to anahalate each other by total destruction.
Now if this new Universe could be created with positive matter within a cell UNIVERSE, then it is also possible that another cell UNIVERSE can also become crested with an ANTI- MATTER equivalent UNIVERSE.
The question that everyone has to ask, is who has the right to proceed at full power testing at CERN, without precautions, in place for unknown entities which may be produced, as no one is qualified or experienced enough to know what the outcome may expose, and how what is created can be prevented from becoming unstable.
WE ALL KNOW YOU CANNOT GET KNOTHING FROM KNOTHING, THEREFORE BIG BANG IS A NON_ENTITY, WHICH ONLY LEAVES TRANSPORTATION FROM ANOTHER SOLAR SYSTEM.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Bob, Austin TX — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 01:49:01 GMT

These are the same type of religious zealot who threatened Galileo for showing that the earth is not the center of the universe. They use scare tactics today, because they can't torture and kill people anymore.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Bob, Austin TX — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 02:06:26 GMT

I just can't believe the extreme stupidity being shown on this blog.
1. There are no aliens.
2. The LHC will not destroy the world.
3. The science that the LHC will produce will benefit mankind, and will be well worth the investment.
4. Too bad if it offends religious conservatives.
5. The 'Big Bang' is one of the most successful scientific theories of all time, and has past many stringnent challenges. It is a well tested theory, and has enormous explanatory power.
6. The 'Standard Particle Theory' is also a very successful, well tested theory with great explanatory and predictive power.
7. Ditto with Einstein's theories of relativity (both of them).
8. Ditto with quantum mechanics.
It is a fact that 20th century science dramatically improved human life, and 20th century science was driven by all of the above-mentioned work. It is very likely that 21st century science will further improve life on earth. The LHC is an important part of 21st century science. Fact is, $10 billion is a STEAL.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Andrew, Boca Raton, FL — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 02:21:01 GMT

I personally think after 6-10 billion dollars spent on this project no amount of laws or anything will stop this project from going through. Who knows what this might cause, a black hole, new disease's...well were going to find out by tomorrow, or in the years to come.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Alfred Flammang, OR — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 02:21:32 GMT

DB: While there is not an upper limit to how much energy you can give a moving object, as it approaches the speed of light the excess energy starts to manifest as mass instead of more speed. You find the speed of the object starts to asymptote off infinitesimally close to the speed of light, which is why we're looking at 99.99994% of it or whatever.

So no, "overshooting" the speed of light and finding time travel is pretty much the one thing we're positive will not happen :P

But with a risk like dropping a stable black hole into our planet -- and even if it escaped Earth, what if it fell into the sun? We're just as boned if it happens at ALL -- there is no ludicrously overwhelming set of odds, no unbelievable load you can give your dice, that would justify such immense consequences.

Really, I like the Hawking as much as anyone, but he's been wrong too. Isn't his admission of being wrong where we got the Hawking radiation theory in the first place? We're human, we make mistakes. It's not a good idea to go all in based on human calculations, especially when three years ago these same 3000 top scientists missed "a math error" that caused an explosion that delayed the project for nearly a year -- it was originally set for Nov. 2007, not tomorrow.

Also, saying mBH's form all the time in nature and decompose before they accrete anything seems reasonable, but uh...last time I checked, huge collisions on the scale we're attempting tend to happen in deep vacuum, not with a pressurized fluid atmosphere that will be continually pushing itself in all directions -- including one direction that happens to contain a black hole and gives way!

Comparing it to the nuclear testing during WWII is mostly moot (mostly) because we were under pressure to develop that weapon before our opponents did. Whether that was justified by what was at stake is up for debate. But this time, there's absolutely no force of urgency to justify it. I mean if we were approached by aliens who said "dude, find us a Higgs Boson or we'll blow up your planet," sure, and Hawking's hunch is as good as any to hinge our survival on in that case. But this is going on for the sheer sake of the curiosity and entertainment of a very small group of scientists capable of understanding it, and the results will likely be completely inapplicable in any way for many, many years.

And don't say we're forced by environmental need or preventing scientific stagnation to do this. The long-term worst case scenario of halting this is we eventually run out of natural fuels and have to revert to a rougher, less-privileged lifestyle, while retaining all our previously gained knowledge of the world and how it works, and continuing to apply it where possible. I mean humanity survived before crude oil -- it wouldn't be easy but we can sure as hell do it when we run out.

TLDR version: STOP THIS. WE DON'T NEED IT. THE RISK, HOWEVER SLIM, IS TOO GRAVE.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Paula Keehn — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 03:44:08 GMT

Listen to the "LHC rap" on Youtube. You'll be laughing so hard, you won't feel like worrying.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Wilson, Brisbane, Australia — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 04:39:55 GMT

Kirk, you wrote: "I have faith and trust in the scientists working on this project. I cannot believe that this project would be going forward with these people knowing or believing that they were putting us all at risk."

When the Challeger space shuttle was launched on its tragic fatal flight the people in charge did not "know or believe" they were putting the shuttle and its brave crew at risk, either.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Felicia Long, Opelika, AL — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 04:40:38 GMT

I don't pretend to be a physics whiz, however, it seems to me that, if all the concerns haven't been addressed, starting up this "black hole maker" should be delayed. I would hope that these scientists would be prudent enough not to put more at risk than their discoveries may be worth. One thing is for certain though, if this thing should, by chance, create any of the problems that have been brought up, we won't have to be so worried about global warming anymore. We won't survive long enough to see any of those notions come to fruition. It seems to me that some folk are more interested in making a name for themselves than doing what may be in the best interest of the citizenry of this planet. What could it hurt to wait a while longer? Just to be sure that what they are attempting to do is safe, it's kind of like putting some drug on the market and finding out
"too late" that it may actually cause someone to die.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Craig, England — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 11:07:04 GMT

I cant understand why people are not outraged at having some (o.k. in fairness propably hyper-intelligent) scientists play with their future and lives. i know i certainly am. Alan, your points are just and im sure your expertise far surpass mine after the mere few days research i have done on this matter, but if you read some of the text, even on the LHC OFFICIAL WEBSITE, it seems to me that part of their exitment is coming from the unknown effects that will occur from this machine, and today is the day to be worried. Going back to a point made earlier about science never being able to produce a 100% accurate conclusion i am slightly outraged at the fact that this exitment of the unknown even exists, and its coming from the people that should have full obligation to reassure us. They may well not be, but without the possibility of a 100% certainty, these guys are playing God and jeopardising humanity. Im no scientist, but i know how to read, and i dont like what i am seeing.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Mitch, Busan, SK — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 12:16:11 GMT

It's like the line from Jurassic Park "The scientists were too busy thinking about, if they could, they forgot to think about, if the SHOULD?" thats a paraphrase.
I don't care if the chances are 900 trillion : 1 that the earth might be destroyed..... if we aren't 100% sure it's 100% safe, then it shouldn't be done.

Curiosity Killed The Cat

Courts weigh doomsday claims

carmen — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 13:39:12 GMT

this machine that was built to satisfy the scientific community, will open new door`s to satisfy there curiousity... then what. the machine`s that are being built are getting bigger and bigger,if they are not happy with there finding`s they`ll go bigger this whole idea of trying to figure out how we became to be, should be put to rest by the court`s in favour of the people that want to stop this ,the machine would try to replicate the big bang,and if something should go wrong (heaven forbid) black hole`s etc. we`d be back like, before the big bang, NOTHING. like turing off the light switch and watching the darkness gobble up the light(LIFE). SO WE MUST PULL TOGETHER AS A PEOPLE AND PUT A STOP TO THIS MADNESS. so are children and there children can live a life just as we have.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

I Grams, Sacramento, California — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 14:14:44 GMT

I believe that some scientist become so focused on their projects that they fail to consider the negative impact on the world. Rather than destroying the world as we know it, why can't they find ways to feed and shelter the hungry and homeless. Why not find ways to improve our economy and provide for world peace. Why not find ways to erase disease and other ails we, as a human race suffer? Why so hell bent on science that will not immediately help improve our lifes or ways of living, but will destroy our world and human race? Why are we the people letting a few elites do this to us?

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Redgie, Denver, CO — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 14:20:29 GMT

Well, they've switched it on, and the sun hasn't gone out. At least we can breath a sigh of relief over THAT concern.

Now this isn't a scientific theory, more of a hunch based on casual observation, but I'm guessing the people who argue the LHC shouldn't be used because it can't be proven safe enough are the same people arguing we shouldn't do anything about global climate change because it can't be proven dangerous enough. How people manage to get up every day and trust their lives and their children's lives to the vagaries of rush-hour traffic is beyond me.

A little logic is needed here. There must be billions of high-energy particle collisions during a hydrogen bomb explosion, many more occurring in our sun every second. The only difference with the LHC is that we are building a huge 'microscope' so we can focus on one at a time. We have observed nothing in existing supercolliders or in nature that suggests any validity to the prognostications of these doomsayers.

Lets be real, we have no proof that black holes actually exist. The black hole is a theoretical construct devised to explain the difference between what we expect to observe in 'galaxies far far away' and what we actually observe. It is equally likely that there are no black holes but some more localized phenomena is distorting our observation of remote events. Even further abstracted from reality is the possiblility of localized, microscopic black holes. IF we accept the existence of massive black holes in the universe, and IF we apply some arcane mathmatics that may or may not be relevant, then THEORETICALLY microscopic black holes MAY be possible, and depending upon which particular twist of theoretical math we apply, MAY behave this way or that. Unless I'm mistaken, nothing has been observed in nature that would suggest the possible existence of these things.

I have a theory. Not really, but its as valid a theory as those being argued in court, and I'm kind of slow with math so it would probably take me a few months to come up with the math to support it. My theory is that all of the integrated circuit chips we are using has created a localized time-dilation effect that is accelerating our reference frame with respect to the rest of the universe. This is creating a massive difference in time potential that could be expressed as a catastrophic energy discharge at any moment, destroying our solar system, perhaps a large chunk of our galaxy. So it is imperative that everybody stop using their cell phones and computers, stop watching TV, etc, etc.

The value of pure science research such as the LHC is that it improves our models and our understanding of the basic workings of our world, therby improving our ability to do applied research in areas that affect us all, such as energy, medicine, game consoles. And as I mentioned before, if our sun in the many years its been around (about 5000, right?) and our h-bomb tests haven't produced any exotic 'killer' penomena, the LHC isn't going to either.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 14:39:04 GMT

Wilson,
All space missions are considered risky. It's not just a walk in the park because it's been done before. The explosion was probably not what they were most concerned with, although such things already had pecedent in our space program.

Felicia,
All the concerns have been addressed. What's going on now is akin to someone who is afraid of heights not wanting to cross a rope bridge. They've been put in a full body harness and are attached to an overhead cable with 50,000 lb tensile rating using multiple aircraft cable, individually capable of carrying 5x their body weight. Now they're saying, "But if I don't hold on I could fall. What if my hands get sweaty, I could fall. It's not safe. What if I fall?"

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Alfred Flammang, OR — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 16:57:51 GMT

No, it's not like someone afraid of heights not wanting to cross a rope bridge.

It's closer to a few people who are so curious about what's on he other side that they're all too eager to rush across it (safety lines given, but by no means foolproof), stubbornly ignorant of the fact that the whole time they're daisy-chained to drag the rest of their species across too, the vast majority of whom have nothing to gain during their lifespan from crossing.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 21:12:00 GMT

Alfred,
Somebody said that the LHC will cause the spontaneous production of little blue evil smurfs that will hunt us down and have us for dinner. And yes, there are still a few people ready to start it up despite this horrendous, or horror end us, "possibility."

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Fausto, London, UK — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 21:34:59 GMT

Hi All,

I just took the time to actually read the pseudo-scientific paper by someone called R. PLaga ( yes a loss of my precious life time but ...) and I was amused by the contents, recombinant DNA to prove or disprove a physics theory ? Usage of wikipedia articles that aren't tied to the area and using shorthand titles in the bibliography ?

For pete's sake if you are going to write a pseudo-scientific paper at least ask someone with knowledge of the trade to write :)

My votes of good luck on getting that "paper" published Mr. R Plaga :)

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Paul Mucci, Horseheads, New York — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 21:48:19 GMT

I think the collider is awesome, necessary and if it actually does accomplish the tasks it's designed to do it will change everything. On the otherhand, if the world goes supernovae....that'll change everything too, but I don't think that will happen. I think that the collider will be of great benefit to science and to all mankind. Thanx.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Johny Doesky, Seattle, Washburn — Thu, 11 Sep 2008 00:05:53 GMT

question: is osama bin laden paying for this experiment?

Courts weigh doomsday claims

nolan — Thu, 11 Sep 2008 02:39:54 GMT

ok, at shcool today nearly everyone i know was worried about this whole doomsday thing, I mean, honestly, what are the odds of creating a miniscule black whole capable of destroying our whole planet? Personally, i think this experiment is just a risk we need to take to attempt to further our knowledge about how we came to be!

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Alfred Flammang, OR — Thu, 11 Sep 2008 02:47:15 GMT

Hey, Tim, strangelets are hot, but in a completely different and much more literal way than Smurfette. Don't go comparing the two for the sake of any risk assessment :P

I'm just saying I'd rather hear the ignorant man cry caution than watch the genius wager all on a chance that is not completely necessary to take. It's one thing when some chemist is mixing volatile chemicals in his room risking his own eyebrows, but I'm a bit affronted to see someone hedging MY life on a theory that has never been proven.

On a more lighthearted note, anyone see the Google picture today? XD

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Bonnie Masson Worley, Idaho — Thu, 11 Sep 2008 08:55:24 GMT

I am wondering if we do have the electromagnetic pole shift in 2012 wouldn't it also effect the magnetics of the magnets in the LHC and if so what might that bring about. I would think if it did change direction as the collisions were happening, that might cause some other unexpected and unwanted phenomenas. I wonder if they even thought about that? I guess we will find out in 2012. and.. if the LHC is running at its peak how easy is it to just turn off then?

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Carrie, Ankeny, IA — Thu, 11 Sep 2008 17:45:34 GMT

I think it's a waste of money and who cares about missing air mass, particles, black holes, other galaxies, molecules and trying to figure out the Big Bang Theory. Honestly, who cares. God created everything, he is in CONTROL. We are functioning just fine here on Earth, there is no need to research how the Earth was made....etc. $4 billion s/h been spent on how we can give back to the Earth and how to make it a better place to live by finding a cure for CANCER, eliminating confliction in Africa, feeding the World, and helping all the veterans from War w/their mental & physical injuries instead of worrying about "what's out there in space". I would rather spend time & energy & resources on our Earth than waste it all on a stupid machine that will crush an atom. No one on Earth will benefit from it.

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Byron, Milwaukee, WI — Fri, 12 Sep 2008 23:27:43 GMT

Well, if they're wrong, the last words spoken on earth may be "Oh Sh"

And who'll be left to complain? Seriously though, I seriously doubt that there's much chance the end coming, but I really have to wonder why they would take a chance. Oh well, If they are wrong, I guess I won't have to worry about getting upset about it.

Courts weigh doomsday claims

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Sat, 13 Sep 2008 02:05:50 GMT

Alfred,
I get your point about the ignorant yelling caution. In fact I made the same point in one of these. I'm just not a proponent of string theory. Then again, string theory isn't either. Well, this string theory and that one. Well, you know. None of them make sense to me and get into a discussion with more than three other people and it's just one explaining why the next one is wrong. I'm confused to the point of frustration.
On the other hand I can really get behind the cosmic ray apology and say they're not hedging your life. The sirens are going off to this part of that theory stuck to that part of this theory to come up with a worst case scenario that can't happen in either. I'm more afraid that a match will blow up my house. I mean, there are explosives on the match. Mixed in the wrong proportions, but still.

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Janie, North Carolina USA — Sun, 14 Sep 2008 04:24:53 GMT

With our current energy crisis. One would think it wiser to use such a machine to create energy we can use rather than a risky venture that could destroy our world!!!

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don — Wed, 17 Sep 2008 22:52:52 GMT

Track whats happening inside the control room with the web-cam.

http://www.cyriak.co.uk/lhc/lhc-webcams.html

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Swaraj Ketan Santra,Kolkata,West Bengal — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 08:31:58 GMT

The temperature created will be no doubt of a high quantity...Altough it will remain enclosed in a vaccum tube but if it spreads by itself....then what will happen to earth......????????????????I think scientists should think more about the asteroid attack in 2012 rather than this type of risky activity. They should keep in mind that planet earth as well as our lives are more important than the theory of physics........

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Swaraj Ketan Santra,kolkata,west bengal — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 08:41:02 GMT

Govt. shouldnot give permissions for LHC...Scientists dont know if something goes in wrong,then who will take the responsibility?....crore of people are starving day by day.....Govt. don't help them with foods and clothes...but spending a huge lump of money in those foul experiments where the question raises in front of our existance..!......After all I,on the behalf of Students, want to request the scients that pls! pls ! pls ! STOP LHC!!!!!!!!!!

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Teddy Steele, Cottage Grove/Eugene, OR — Sat, 25 Oct 2008 23:21:26 GMT

listen....all of you...if the tests of mankind intervene with what we are going to face as "the ultimate change" of our nature, then so be it...there will be little time to fret or scoff about mistakes in calculations if we are to possibly transcend to another level of existence....think of the new avenues we can explore from THAT angle...from THAT place....

...what is god but mankinds better side, bring it on....I CAN'T WAIT

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Tatil — Sun, 31 May 2009 21:25:24 GMT

Why do half of you people talk like you have quantum physics degrees?

Courts weigh doomsday claims

me — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 22:43:20 GMT

Well, it's now november 12th. I assume the damn thing has been flicked on and I also assume nothing important happened leading up to the end of the world, because we're all still here and nothing more has been said. People who aren't actual professionals in that field should really just sit back and keep quiet regarding the Collider. As for spend the money on more important things...like what? feeding the hungry? There will ALWAYS be less fortunate and hungry people as long as everyone likes to drive hummers and live in 5000 square foot homes and stuff their faces with cheeseburgers. World peace? LOL Like that's ever going to happen!!
Go forward scientists! If you can make this world a better place or answer the mysteries of the universe, then go ahead!