Fusion effort in flux

TallDave — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 00:15:38 GMT

Thanks for the update, Alan. Good to know that peer review is underway.

Fusion effort in flux

M. Simon, Rockford, Illinois — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 01:10:33 GMT

Thank you for the report and the link.

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Aero, Eastern Iowa — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 01:45:20 GMT

Good, something is happening!

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Tom Ligon, Manassas, VA. — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 03:00:14 GMT

Bless you, sir, for keeping up with this.

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Fanklin Sherman Lincoln., Rhode island — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 11:34:09 GMT

Fusion is the way to go I certainly hope funding wil be provided.

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Mike Rosing, Madision Wi — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 12:52:50 GMT

If they can put out pre-prints of their report, please let us know. Thanks for following the story!

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jkiefer, Louisville, KY — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 13:15:52 GMT

Alan,
While I am a novice in the physics community, I have always been amazed how physics is changing the world. I recently found an e-book entitle:
"THE LATTICE NESTED HYDRENO ATOMIC MODEL
BASED IN ULTRA CLOSE RANGE CASIMIR EFFECTS" by Mark Porringa. I am curious how much validity is being placed on his model by the Physics community.

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Wade Whitlock, Aberdeen, MD — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 13:27:44 GMT

Alan,
Did I get the name correctly? THE Bussard of interstellar ramjet fame? I am sorry to hear of his death. We will miss his originality of thought. I hope that the work is panning out and will be continued. We are going to need it very badly - very soon.

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Albrecht Schweinhund, Hamburg, Germany — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 13:38:24 GMT

One has to wonder if by conducting these fusion experiments, as with nuclear weapons testing, we aren't causing perturbations in the space-time fabric that will adversely affect extradimensional life forms. We simply don't have enough data on what our experimentation with the quantum world is doing in parallel universes. We could provoke a collapse of the space-time continuum or a war with extradimensional beings or beings from a parallel universe. This fusion research is quite troubling, indeed.

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Joe Strout, Fort Collins, CO — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 13:54:08 GMT

Any news is appreciated. I understand Dr. Nebel's need to be circumspect, but I still find cause for optimism in his remarks -- "we have had some success" is certainly more encouraging than I would expect if the experiment were a dud.

Let's keep watching, and hope this turns out to be a truly game-changing technology.

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Eric, Salinas, CA — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 14:00:35 GMT

We can't trust the oil industry to give us fusion power and we need to tax them so we can give more money to people who are working on this incredible fusiontechnology created by Bussard.

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Chance, Waldorf, MD — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 14:04:17 GMT

Could you clarify: is more power actually being generated than is needed to start and maintain the reation? I read the wikipedia page on the design, but it is a bit too technical for me to get a clear answer on that.

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Rick S. — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 14:30:24 GMT

Very interesting article. Two thoughts:

1. If you pulse the magnetic field and decrease the confinement space the probability of interaction would increase thereby increasing the fusion rate. The particle injection would have to be during the low field time period. Kind of like an internal combustion engine.

2. Could you combine the this device with a tokomak-like arrangement creating a pinch point for the plasma in order to increase the rate of fusion?

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Rick, Simi Valley CA — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 14:45:02 GMT

Just a little more information, please? I would be happy with a graph or two or maybe a simple simple sentence outlining what those successes were.

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John Anderson, North East, Md. — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 14:49:06 GMT

We need Fussion energy to save the world and halt our dependence on fossil fuels. Stop talking about it and move quickly toward this glorious goal. Our future depends on it!!! Thanks for the Info

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Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 15:13:53 GMT

Sounds like a bust !

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Jason — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 16:17:31 GMT

Make with the Fusion already! I just turned 30 and I've been hearing about the possibilies for so long now that I put it in the same category as flying cars. Crap or get off the pot...

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Brent. San Diego, Ca. — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 16:24:49 GMT

This is so exciting to hear!

I've been a staunch advocate of nuclear energy since I was old enough to understand how the various forms worked, but have always been dismayed with our "fission is good enough" attitude and the lack of aggressively funded research in the realm of fusion.

If this approach to the problem proves to be an efficient model and is developed into commercial reactors, it will truly be the mark of a new and exciting era for humanity.

"Free" energy whose waste byproduct you can use to fill up children's balloons with!

I'd love to see some of the design specs of this, or if anything just a basic idea of how it works.
Is it fusing hydrogen or is it designed for a heavier element? Magnetic containment fields? Or is the lack of them part of the "unorthodox approach?"

Very exciting! Thank you very much for this article.

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S.B. Stein E.B. NJ — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 17:44:09 GMT

I can't wait for this to be a reality. It would solve most if not all the energy problems we have. Electric cars would become so much easier to run; there would be no controvery over moving the source of pollution that some people claim.

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Alan Boyle — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 18:38:31 GMT

Dear Chance: This experiment wasn't designed to get to the break-even point. It was meant to get the technical data about how much fusion was going on in a small-scale device. The way I understand it, researchers can take those numbers and model it to figure out what would happen in a larger device. If the model works the way Nebel hopes, a larger machine could go beyond the break-even point and put out more energy than it takes in. But I assume that the key issue is how the reaction is modeled. That's why you probably won't hear that it's a breakthrough ... yet ... and why you might continue to hear debate about whether this technology will work as well as hoped. I assume that's what Nebel means when he talks about seeing a "mix" of results. Other folks more knowledgeable than I am will undoubtedly weigh in on this.

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Joe Strout, Fort Collins, CO — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 18:57:59 GMT

Chance: no, this is a small test machine, a good factor of 10 or more too small to produce net power. But that's fine -- the key thing at this point is to see whether the results of these small tests support the theory, and if they do, then a breakeven machine might be next.

To others looking for a general introduction on how this might work, check out the links at http://www.strout.net/info/science/polywell/, and also browse the Talk-Polywell forum that Alan pointed out, where you will find lots of details and plenty of knowledgeable people willing to answer your questions. (Remember to send email to the moderator to get your account activated, so it is clear you're not a spambot.)

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Joe Strout, Fort Collins, CO — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 19:00:16 GMT

OK, some quick answers for Brent: polywell fusion does use magnetic fields for containment, but only to contain electrons, not ions. Containing electrons is orders of magnitude easier because they're so much lighter. The electrons produce an electrostatic potential well, and that is what contains and accelerates the ions. Initial tests are fusing deuterium, I believe, but the long-term plan is to fuse hydrogen and boron, which produces very little neutron radiation.

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Jethro Bodean, Choccolocco, Alabama — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 19:36:16 GMT

Uh, I got sum questions for y'all. Is that guy from Germany right? Do we have to worry bout warping the space-time fabric or makin sum aliens mad? I'm kinda scared. I don't wanna die.

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Alex T. Anders, Tampa, FL — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 20:44:53 GMT

Jethro: No need to worry -- no aliens have complained yet, so odds are good that our friend from Germany has simply been watching too many late night movies on the Sci-Fi channel :)

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Adam, Brisbane, Australia — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 21:13:53 GMT

Hi Jethro

Assuming you're not joking, there's nothing to freak-out about. The process doesn't go anywhere near the field intensities needed to distort space-time, and the Sun (like all stars) fuses many millions of tons per second without any apparent bogeys from other dimensions appearing - I have no idea where the Austrian guy gets his ideas from, but he sounds a bit irrational.

Electromagnetic fields can distort space-time, but the intensities have to be stronger than what even neutron stars and magnetars generate (i.e. many billions of times stronger than little fusion fields.) So "DON'T PANIC"

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Ed Ruth, Miami Florida — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 21:23:49 GMT

Thanks for keeping us to date on this subject. I hope the findings support additional funding!

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Richard Collette, Connecticut — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 22:08:13 GMT

It took 6 years and billions to develop the nuclear bomb. Human space flight started in 1958 and by 1961 President Kennedy made a commitment to going to the moon and in just about 8 years and 20 billion dollars later they did it. Here we are with the possibility of not only one of man's greatest technical achievements sitting on our plate, but the solution to several of our geo-political and socio-economic issues as well and our leaders are sitting deaf, dumb and blind.

While Barac Obama claims to be dodging politics as usual, his claim to solving our energy dependency in 10 years is a typical game of extending out a promise well beyond a two term presidency.

There are several components that are part of engineering this system. Dedicating the funding and manpower to those components would shorten the development cycle, without a doubt. Why can we note get some leadership, like Kennedy or Roosevelt who were committed to getting the job done.

Write your representatives about this. I have.

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Clifford J. Wirth, Small Town, State of Veracruz, Mexico — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 22:53:08 GMT

One has to wonder why the news media focus on such faint glimmers of some slight possibility of some development to produce electricity, which won't help.

Here is the real problem:

According to energy investment banker Matthew Simmons and most independent analysts, global oil production is now declining, from 74 million barrels per day to 60 million barrels per day by 2015. During the same time demand will increase 14%.

This is equivalent to a 33% drop in 7 years. No one can reverse this trend, nor can we conserve our way out of this catastrophe. Because the demand for oil is so high, it will always be higher than production; thus the depletion rate will continue until all recoverable oil is extracted.

Alternatives will not even begin to fill the gap. And most alternatives yield electric power, but we need liquid fuels for tractors/combines, 18 wheel trucks, trains, ships, and mining equipment.

Surviving Peak Oil: We are facing the collapse of the highways that depend on diesel trucks for maintenance of bridges, cleaning culverts to avoid road washouts, snow plowing, roadbed and surface repair. When the highways fail, so will the power grid, as highways carry the parts, transformers, steel for pylons, and high tension cables, all from far away. With the highways out, there will be no food coming in from "outside," and without the power grid virtually nothing works, including home heating, pumping of gasoline and diesel, airports, communications, and automated systems.

This is documented in a free 48 page report that can be downloaded, website posted, distributed, and emailed: http://www.peakoilassociates.com/POAnalysis.html

I used to live in NH-USA, but moved to a sustainable place. Anyone interested in relocating to a nice, pretty, sustainable area with a good climate and good soil? Email: clifford dot wirth at yahoo dot com or give me a phone call which operates here as my old USA-NH number 603-668-4207. http://survivingpeakoil.blogspot.com/

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A Little Bird — Sat, 30 Aug 2008 00:12:07 GMT

Clifford,

When the reports come out on this, you'll want to notice who headed the review.

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Alan Boyle — Sat, 30 Aug 2008 00:35:26 GMT

Little Bird, you are one smart tweeter: The head of the review panel is said to be Robert Hirsch, who has had long involvement in nuclear fusion research as well as the "peak oil" discussion. (I haven't yet been able to confirm this myself.) Here are a couple of links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_L._Hirsch

http://eclipse-chat.blogspot.com/2007/10/dr-robert-hirsch-fusion-designer-on.html

http://www.worldoil.com/magazine/magazine_detail.asp?ART_ID=2695

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Tobias Holbrook, Carnforth, England — Sat, 30 Aug 2008 11:30:14 GMT

As for power generation, a 100MW Polywell Fusor is only supposed to be about 3 metres in Diameter. Of course extra is needed for the Ion injection and power generation system, but could one of these replace the substations they have near every street?

Perhaps the reason Hirsch is heading the review panel is that he knows about these sorts of systems?

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Richard Collette, Connecticut — Sat, 30 Aug 2008 13:31:54 GMT

Clifford, the design of these reactors is such that they would fit in large ships with no nuclear waste (in the boron version) . The electricity they produce can be used generate hydrogen (which an MIT team recently improved the process for with something like a catalyst). It's amazing that anyone would knock an idea so quickly. If the US can afford to spend trillions on Iraq, you would think that a few billion to solving our energy problems wouldn't draw anyone's ire.

The only thing obstructing progress is naysayers.

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cris p — Sat, 30 Aug 2008 19:16:41 GMT

"generally happy"??

Dammit, Dr. Nebel, why did you have to throw in the "generally"? :P

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Stargazerdude22 — Sun, 31 Aug 2008 04:59:04 GMT

Looks like you should have gone nuclear, Google. Ya missed out.

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CM, Modesto, CA — Sun, 31 Aug 2008 07:51:26 GMT

The problem is that none of these fusion efforts have reached energy breakeven, they've all taken more energy to run than they can produce. Every step closer to breakeven means bigger and more expensive reactors, and there is the risk that reaching breakeven will result in a reactor too big and expensive to be economically feasable. The Polywell approach and plasma focus designs are more promising than Tokamak, but they, too are growing ever more costly in their pursuit of breakeven.

We should continue fusion research as a scientific investigation, but we should not count on it to solve our energy problems.

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Grant Hatch, Clarkston, Wash. — Sun, 31 Aug 2008 09:39:31 GMT

There is an interview with Bussard explaining the fusion process shortly befor he died at the "American Antigravity" site for all those interested.

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Jager Ludmilin, White Rock — Sun, 31 Aug 2008 17:10:00 GMT

Thanks for the update n this I'm very glad to see that this project is stil going and that fusion power is still developing as an energy source for the grid and everything in it.

Most of the time these kind of articles get no coverage whatsoever, but in my oppinion this breakthrough technology is important front page material.

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Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Sun, 31 Aug 2008 18:16:38 GMT

I was wondering how long it would take before a comment like Albrecht Schweinhund’s.

Following Rick S., would a constant containment field with a pulsating z-pinch/feed/z-pinch work? Is there a point at which you can just feed through the containment field?

Thomas Ashby,
Most successes are the hundredth try.

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John Chatelle, Bridgeport NY — Sun, 31 Aug 2008 22:07:44 GMT

Is Dr. Robert Hersch who worked with Dr Bussard at the old AEC, and might be contributing with the review of Drs. Nebel's and Park's experiments, the same Robert Hersch who worked with Philo Farnsworth in the 60's as a graduate student in developing the Farnsworth type electorstatic fusors? Is it the same person or just an uncanny coincidence that they have the same name?

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Frak Glover Rochester, NY — Sun, 31 Aug 2008 22:31:49 GMT

"Clifford, the design of these reactors is such that they would fit in large ships with no nuclear waste..."

Indeed, the reason the Navy was originally interested in this approach is that it could make it possible to use nuclear power (and the range/endurance that comes with that) to *small* ships. (Destroyers and the like.)

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Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 16:39:30 GMT

CM,
Consider computers.
Getting a handle on any technology usually means bigger and bigger, taking more and more power. We may one day wind up with a fusion reactor that produces 100 MW sustainable but requires 200 MW to run. This would be a complete success. After mastering the fusion part, teams could be unleashed on bringing down the energy requirements. Once you understand how something works, you start to understand what things you're doing are unnecessary and what can be done differently. In no time that same reactor could be self sustaining with 75MW outflow.

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Clifford J. Wirth, Ph.D. Small Town, State of Veracruz, Mexicot — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 00:44:19 GMT

RICHARD,

You should read my report which reviews all of the studies. The National Academy of Sciences has examined the hydrogen economy. Even if we had ample hydrogen, we would have nothing. Hydrogen is basically useless, as we can't transport it except by truck, unlike how we transport oil, diesel, and gasoline.

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Ron — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 05:15:38 GMT

Clifford,

It is too bad that you allow your fear to rule you. Yes there is such a thing as Peak Oil, but you have gone way past reality with your assumptions.

I think it also makes you less credible with the way that you have set up a consulting business to make money off the peak oil theory.

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TallDave — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 16:35:33 GMT

FWIW, Nebel has alluded to "detailed reactor designs" that his team has put together, suggesting they are ready to try for the 100MW net power reactor.

Does anyone know how long the peer review and funding decision process will take? I am guessing no more than a month or two but don't really know.

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M. Simon, Rockford, Illinois — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 05:07:02 GMT

When my mate finds wrinkles in the fabric of space-time she uses a hot iron to flatten them. However she tells me the effect is only temporary.

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Aero, Eastern Iowa — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 14:45:37 GMT

TallDave - How long will the review take? Don't really know but my money is on a decision and announcement in time for the new fiscal year. Of course that is fluid, too (in time for). But next year's money will be fast gone as October 1 approaches.

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Eric, Fargo, ND — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 18:00:09 GMT

Nebel speaks like a politician. Why all the weird, cryptic obfuscations such as, "It's kind of a mix" or " We're generally happy with what we've been getting out of it." Why is it "kind of a mix"? Then why would Nebel be "generally happy" with mixed results? Nebel used this language back in June when he said that he was getting data from the machine but that it was "nuanced." Where I come from such generalisations without specifics are called "bulls--t"

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Jeremy — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 01:08:12 GMT

I disagree with the 'hydrogen being useless' fellow. With such a raw material and boundless electricity with it, one can create liquid hydrocarbons on demand using the Fischer-Tropsch process and its variations.
Additionally, ammonia can be created in vast quantities. This can be transported much more easily than hydrogen.
When we are at our best, the human race are benevolent paternalistic colonists. Entities disturbed by any space/time wrinkling would be well served to remember that. :-)

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TallDave — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 18:54:23 GMT

Eric,

In this case, it's called a nondisclosure agreement.

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Vernes, Amsterdam, The Netherlands — Mon, 29 Sep 2008 20:57:50 GMT

Those who think this project is worth the money and the effort, might want to aim their attention at Google's 10 Million Dollar project competition here: http://www.project10tothe100.com

If I see Dr. Bussard's fusion reactor mentioned, I will vote for it.
The hillarious part would be that we would have an answer to the question "Should google go nuclear?".

Cheaper power means more power for thesame value.
More power means more production, means cheaper products.
Cheaper electronics, cheaper tools, cheaper science.
More science for thesame value.

We might even get off this planet before we crash it.

And while this is going on, we polute the planet a bit less.

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Charles Radley, Portland, Oregon — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 22:29:55 GMT

It is now October 16th. Has Nebel's tenure been extended? Has the funding been approved? What were the findings of the peer review visit?