Final countdown for collider

david — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 20:12:55 GMT

let them make the black hole, then we can throw our garbage into it

Final countdown for collider

E. Pryor — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 20:50:52 GMT

Black holes are not the only possible catastrophic outcome of this experiment. A by-product particle called a "strangelet" could possibly be formed, and could possibly integrage into ordinary matter. These particles could then change the matter around them into "strange matter" in a chain reaction until the entire planet is uninhabitable. These people are crazy to risk the entire planet for an expiriment.

Final countdown for collider

Kirk, Traverse City, MI — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 20:59:26 GMT

It's exciting to see this come to fruition, and that the concerns of those who fear the unknown won't stop us from learning answers to some really big questions. If this isn't the purpose to human existence, then I don't know what is.

Final countdown for collider

AfraidoftheBrainiacs — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 20:59:51 GMT

This sounds exactly like what I read in "Angels and Demon" by Dan Brown. Did anybody else read that book? What if the highly toxic "anti-matter" that is created in the book comes into existence? What about the black hole possibilities? Trying to find the "God" particle.....do these people REALLY know what they are doing??

Final countdown for collider

Rich, Gaithersburg, MD — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 21:09:37 GMT

I looked through the document posted by Wagner, and found this:

<quote> In examining the affidavits, the court will note that there is a triable issue of material fact as to whether the LHC will likely produce disastrous waste products, as alleged by plaintiffs, or whether such outcome is “unlikely”, as alleged by defendants. <endquote>

The use of the word "unlikely" by the defendants is more than a bit unsettling to me. Simple risk analysis would seem to indicate that an outcome that would result in the end of existence should have a risk of exactly zero. And nobody seems to want to say the risk is exactly zero.

What I'd like to see, in laymans terms, is something a bit more comforting and definitive than just "trust me on this".

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Fred, La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 21:15:04 GMT

Congratulations to the LHC team! These people are doers, while the rest of us, including those attention-seeking lawsuit bringers, are mere talkers and do-littles. We could all learn a lot from the LHC folks and people like them!

Hey USA! Bring high-energy physics back to the American shores! Restart the Superconducting Super Collider project and make America a leader once again!

Final countdown for collider

victimofury — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 21:21:06 GMT

OK , this is a magnet that has the most powerful pull developed by man . earth"s own magnetic sheild is our worlds protector . if you take two magnets an put them end to end . a force of the two i have either is so strong i cannot pull them apart or push together . either way this , this will have an impact on our earths own axis.
pulling at satellites and objects from space could also be that a slightest magnetic pull could lure an asteroid into out directions . remember , this has a
measurable pull 7 miles higher than the other accumalators known . what about earths core ? solid iron that will react in a magnetic force that the core also uses to keep our planet intacted .
sorry . this is one bad apple ready to drop .

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Matthew 'Floyd' Clough — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 21:40:17 GMT

Technological singularity here we come!

Ahhh - in all seriousness - thank you, Alan, for your continued, fantastic coverage of CERN and the LHC.

Wonderful news!

Fingers crossed!

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Loren, SF Bay Area, CA — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 21:43:09 GMT

I wanna know if running the LHC at full power is going to destroy the Earth. Because if it is, to heck with making contributions to my 401k!

Final countdown for collider

russ reed — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 22:02:36 GMT

I think this would be a fitting and timely end to it all.
Not the lawsuit , the planet.
I advocate protection of all martian fossils ( previous life ) because when they create the "thing that should not be" and they are instantly unable to put the genie back in the bottle , Mars fossils will be harmed of course.
The LHC people are going to prevent us from knowing about life elsewhere.
This is sarcasm of course.
But, its easy to imagine a planet that evolved to the point of destroying itself in a lusty quest for knowlege, instead of some all out war.
We know what atomic weapons will do, and we know their ranges and strengths.
We do not know what the LHC program will produce.
Now thats scary stuff... If they build it, they sure in the hell are going to use it for all its worth!
suspense from the most abstract concept known to man ,
woot ! fun fun

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Chris W. — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 22:03:23 GMT

It's fascinating to consider the philosophical, as well as the scientific impact the discoveries made in this collider are likely to have. Beyond the praticial application of new knowledge, it's fun to consider the ways that scientific knowledge changes the way we see the universe. Check out the article below for some interesting ideas on this:

http://www.strangelegacy.com/2008/05/01/socrates-meets-quantum-physics/

Final countdown for collider

Tim, Atlantis — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 22:10:57 GMT

the sky is falling!
the sky is falling!
Not that ANY of this matters, we're all going fo die December 21, 2012.
AND The war in Iraq IS actually armageddon.
Oh, and we found Bigfoot in Alabama.

"'Tis a sad state of affairs when small minds can raise such a ruckus."

Final countdown for collider

Lawrence Wasserman, San Dieog, CA — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 22:15:51 GMT

I am still wrestling with how gravity is caused by a mass distoring the time-space continuim. Now they are adding to my mental burden with matter - anti matter, other dimensions, dark matter and energy, the "God" particle and supersymetrical particles.

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Phil T.- Jackson, Ms. — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 22:26:27 GMT

Hooray for science! History has been a jealous mistress when noting the ignorance of humankind in seeking scientific truths. When Galileo stated that the earth was not the center of the universe, he was threatened with death. The Wright brothers were ridiculed and told man would never fly. And here we stand on the cusp of discoveries beyond our wildest imagination, an opportunity to see into the very distant past to find answers that are crucial to our existence and once again science has to justify it's cause. It spends more energy and time fighting ignorance than it does in moving beyond it. The same thing can be said about stem cell research. That is another subject for another posting.
Future generations will peer back this period of their being and record that as a rule and more times than not, we allowed prejudice, ignorance and lack of vision to be our guide. My, how some things never change.

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brian, carlisle,pa — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 22:33:07 GMT

sounds like a waste of money to me

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RJG in SoCal — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 22:34:02 GMT

As I like to make informed decisions on this issue, I took time out to watch the hour-long talk by Mr. John Ellis-- and, again, I came away much more concerned about the LHC than ever before. Here you have one of CERN's top scientists actively taking cheap pot shots at those who question the safety of this contraption. Mr. Ellis went so far as claiming that those who raise safety issues are only doing it to make a quick buck. His arrogance and tunnel vision "group think" is profoundly disturbing and dangerous. Operators of a machine that creates temperatures "100,000 times hotter than the core of the sun" right over in Switzerland deserve to give the people of this planet a deeper, more serious look into ALL conceivable dangers by UNBIASED third-party scientists-- but instead, they only offer up condescending rhetoric and talking points. It's shameful, really.

Hat's off, by the way, to Mr. Boyle/MSNBC for continuing to look into this important issue.

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Delmar Fairchild, Barron, WI — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 22:39:27 GMT

The Theory of Constraints may apply to this lawsuit.

Convergence
The first principle: Convergence, also called "Inherent Simplicity" states that "The more complex a system is to describe, the simpler it is to manage." Or that the more interconnected a system is the fewer degrees of freedom it has, and consequently the fewer points must be touched (managed) to impact the whole system. A corollary of this principle is that every organization has at least one constraint active in any given point of time (otherwise it would achieve infinite performance relative to its goal). The more complex and interconnected the organization is the lower the number of constraints it will have.

Consistency
The second principle: Consistency, also called "There are No Conflicts in Nature" states that "If two interpretations of a natural phenomenon are in conflict, one or possibly both must be wrong". That is, when in an organization with a common goal, two parts are in conflict (or in a dilemma) this means that the reasoning that led to the conflict must contain at least one flawed assumption.

Respect
The third principle: Respect, also called "People are not Stupid" states that "Even when people do things that seem stupid they have a reason for that behavior". In other words, this principle is stating that people are not inherently bad.

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C Eldridge, HBG PA — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 22:40:41 GMT

Thanks very much for the report Alan! Twice as much steel as the Eiffel tower eh?? You know that is what I remember most from your visit and home movies you made... how absolutely massive those machines really are... I would have thought table top size but to see there were as tall as a five story buidling was just amazing! The Europeans are leading the world in so many fields it's sometimes hare to keep up. I give them credit where credit is certainly overdue! I was just looking at a photo of the Areane V rocket and wondering if they've had many successes in the last two years since I kept track... I know they had a faiure or two early on but a massive rocket like that can really help the world with all the massive communications and earth- and heaven-observing satilites they launch! Still lots to discover in particle physics... Will this new machine be able to find out what Sandies Z-machine discovered when it released something like 7 times more energy than they but in when they fused a thin wire of Iron??? Maybe not directly, but something in that experiement hinted at so much more we don't know in the subatomic relm! Good Luck! Hey, can we buy those guys some donuts? I once did that for the guys that built the New Binocular Telescope down in AZ :) They loved it!

Chris

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John Peterson, Middleton, WI — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 22:43:47 GMT

Just thought you would enjoy this National Geographic video I clipped from an hour long show.

http://democurmudgeon.blogspot.com/search?q=atom+smasher

Final countdown for collider

socrates, nuclear physics theoretician — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 22:59:14 GMT

The problem with this test is that it is about 2 to 3 thousand years too early in the course of Human civilization. There is simply too much that is still not yet known about the nature of the universe, dark matter, and black holes to allow for such a risky experiment. Noone really knows for certain that all the possible outcomes of this experiment will exclude the releases of microscopic black holes...we just don't know. And given the consequences....it just makes you wonder " Are we Humans that crazy...in our desperate search for knowledge and energy that we are willing to risk the destruction of the entire universe or planet earth....I mean..really...?

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Dennis Lokken — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 23:17:58 GMT

I wasn't aware that the federal government was funding overseas projects. I am curious as to whether or not the overseas government funded the particle accelerators located on American soil. Are American scientists going to get equal time or access to the new collider?

At one point there was talk of building a new collider here but it never developed ... was that because of a lack of funding by the federal government?
It bothers me just a little to observe our "high tech" and now our science leaving our nation....if this is a correct deduction.

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David Weigle, Perry, Ga — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 23:26:53 GMT

Interestingly enough, they really dont know what the result will be from this experiment. There is a opportunity to learn from this, however; the results could be catastophic. " NO GUTS. NO GLORY!

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jrb new braunfels,tx. — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 00:12:21 GMT

some,including myself do not totally understand the purpose of this machine. maybe if you came down a few levels, this would make more sense to common people. all anyone may say is black holes,atomic malfunctions.english

Final countdown for collider

Alan Boyle — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 01:22:08 GMT

Dear JRB: Thanks for reminding me about the purpose of the machine... Here's what I wrote a couple of weeks ago on that subject (You'll find this as a comment on http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/08/07/1252902.aspx):

Over the past 70 years or so, physicists have been smashing atoms and subatomic particles together to study what makes them tick. The analogy has been made to shooting at a nerf ball with a BB gun, and trying to figure out what's inside the nerf ball by seeing how the BBs are deflected and what gets knocked loose.

These particle colliders have been operating at higher and higher energies, and they've been quite useful ... not only because they reveal what we're made of (for example, the discovery of quarks, etc.) but also because the beams have real-world applications (treating cancer, developing stronger materials, mapping internal organs).

The Large Hadron Collider ("hadron" refers to any particle that contains quarks) will be by far the most powerful particle collider to date, achieving energies seven times as high as the previous champion (the Tevatron in Illinois). It's important to remember that collisions far more energetic occur in outer space all the time. You could think of the LHC as the best artificial cosmic-ray simulator we've been able to come up with so far.

So what will it find? We'll go into that in much more depth in a couple of weeks, but in brief, physicists hope to answer some of the puzzling questions that have been unanswerable until now. For example, based on our current understanding of gravity, we know that all the matter we can see is only about 10 percent of all the matter in the universe. Scientists believe the other 90 percent is "dark matter," which may consist of exotic particles that zip through us all the time but have never been detected. The LHC could detect the signatures of such dark matter particles.

Another question has to do with antimatter. Theorists have said that equal parts of matter and antimatter arose in the big bang that gave rise to the universe as we know it ... but theoretically, those equal parts should have annihilated themselves and resulted in pure energy. There must have been something about antimatter that gave it a disadvantage and led to the fact that we hardly ever see antimatter in nature. One of the LHC experiments, LHCb, will address that conundrum.

Another LHC experiment, called ALICE, will seek to re-create the conditions that existed just after the big bang and study the plasma (or fluid) that made up all that was at that time.

Then there's the Higgs boson. As I mentioned above, it's the last particle predicted by the Standard Model that hasn't yet been detected. It is thought to be associated with a field that determines which particles will have mass (like protons) and which particles won't (like photons). It's so important to the way the world works that it's been called the "God Particle."

Theorist John Ellis told me that the Higgs is the "door" leading to new physics that we can't really guess about right now. Determining its characteristics could lead physicists beyond the brick wall they're facing on several fronts.

There are also way-out ideas: If the universe contains extra unseen dimensions, as some theorists have said, the LHC could create microscopic knots of energy that have been dubbed "mini-black holes" (virtually all physicists say they would disappear instantaneously). Some researchers claim that the LHC could create small closed timelike curves ... essentially, microscopic wormholes or time machines. Most physicists say that's pretty much science fiction, but there has been at least one paper written up about the idea:

http://arxiv.org/abs/0710.2696

As far as real-world applications ... well, that can't be predicted right now. But past advances in high-energy physics and engineering have led to new ways to see the universe (like space telescopes sensitive to various wavelengths) and new devices (like PET scanners and MRI scanners in hospitals). The engineering insights gained from the LHC could help other scientists tame fusion power, or discover entirely new sources of energy, or come up with new types of materials or sensors.

We'll delve into this a lot more in the coming weeks, but I did want to give folks a sense of why the LHC is important.

If you want to click through a presentation that explains particle physics step by step, you can check out the Particle Adventure:

http://particleadventure.org/frameless/startstandard.html

Final countdown for collider

Justin P — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 01:37:46 GMT

The fact of the matter is, there IS a chance.......a relatively BIG chance.....that this thing could destroy the world. On September 10th, say goodbye to all of those you love. I'm glad I don't have children, and feel sorry for those who do. After the 10th, after we destroy ourselves, our children have no future. If you WANT to have a future for yourselves and loved ones, STOP THIS NOW.

Final countdown for collider

Pat Biello, Sicklerville, NJ — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 01:54:28 GMT

Why is it so important the know how the Univers got started? Lets spend that money too develope better means of space travel so we can find another planet to live after the Russia start WW3.

Final countdown for collider

Negav Kalanaga, Grayson, KY — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 02:29:01 GMT

The energies reached in the LHC still won't equal those of the most energetic cosmic rays to hit the atmosphere. If those haven't destroyed the Earth, in one way or another, in 4.5 billion years, it is unlikely that the less powerful collisions we produce will do so.

Final countdown for collider

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 02:29:16 GMT

Afraidofthebrainiacs,
Do I understand this correctly? You base your fears on the work of Dan Brown. I’m sure you’ll tell me the very notion is ridiculous, it’s just that that’s what it looked like when I read your comment.

Rich,
Do you go out and get a hamburger? Do you know the odds of dying from it? It’s just a personal death, not an everybody death, but even a merely, just, only personal death seems more than trivial if you’re the person. Or how about buy lettuce, or grapes, or drive (remember the other drivers), or … With the amount of risk we willingly, gleefully put ourselves in each day it is ludicrous that people would be fearfully opposed based on a risk that is ridiculous just because they personally don’t understand something that most of them are not capable of understanding. “Trust me on this” sometimes means “there is no way I can explain this to you and make you understand.” They’ve made the explanations in science speak if you don’t want to just “trust them.” That’s more a general rant, not a rant at you, just attached to your question.
And in layman’s terms, it is “unlikely” that I will be squished by a giant stepping on me tomorrow.

Victim of Ury wrote, “this has a
measurable pull 7 miles higher than the other accumalators known.”
???

Russ Reed,
A quantum bomb. Wow! Megatons are for wimps. But really, we wouldn’t use advanced technology to build weapons. Not us.

Lawrence Wasserman,
The fact that you can have that burden says something. And gravity is easy. When these two, it’s when some stuff, all this matter kind of… Crap, I don’t know either. Oh, Advil helps.

Jrb,
The machine will speed up protons, and later lead ions, to near the speed of light as they get pushed around the circle by magnets. Layman’s terms, think merry-go-round, a lot of little pushes making it go faster and faster. One stream will go one direction, another the other direction. The two streams will be directed into each other to make a bunch of head on collisions. The point is to see what happens from the collisions. You know what happens if you toss two baseballs at each other. One moving 20 mph into the other at 20 mph. They bounce off one another. Imagine firing each out of a cannon. Now when they hit they explode and parts of them fly all over the place. Core and string and laces and cover. Stuff that doesn’t look like a baseball at all. Things you would never know about a baseball if you didn’t fire them at each other from cannons. This new knowledge could help you understand why baseballs behave the way they do when you hit them with a bat. That knowledge may lead to developing better bats. Or maybe an improvement in jai alai baskets. For this experiment the stuff that comes out may be a mix of weird, exotic particles we’ve never seen before. Understanding more about the make-up of matter will, we expect, lead to untold, unimagined, unplanned advances. Maybe new manufacturing techniques that interweave material at an atomic level and make Kevlar look like toilet paper. Maybe, probably, new imaging equipment that will give us clearer views of that killer virus or cancer so we can find ways to defeat death. Most likely bigger better weapons, hey, we’re people, it’s what we do.

Final countdown for collider

James Tankersley Jr., Middleton Wi — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 03:45:20 GMT

Thank you for covering this issue in such detail Alan.

Great comment by RJG in SoCal!

I could not agree more and I wrote a similar criticism of that talk at http://www.lhcfacts.org/?p=72.[1]

I would like CERN to respond to German Astrophysicist Dr. Rainer Plaga's suggestions for partial risk mitigation.[2]

Dr. Plaga's paper concludes "there is a definite risk from [micro black hole] production at colliders. This final conclusion differs completely from the one drawn by G & M." [2]

[1] http://www.lhcfacts.org/?p=72. CERN’s Dr. Ellis tells only half of the story, 8/23/2008

[2] http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0808/0808.1415v1.pdf. On the potential catastrophic risk from metastable quantum-black holes produced at particle colliders - Dr. Rainer Plaga Paper, 8/10/2008

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Eric Williams, Torrance, CA — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 03:53:45 GMT

Our world is becoming more uninhabitable every day. Can't 10 Billion Dollars be used to combat some of the major problems the human race has?
Stop this experiment. Some idiot scientist brought killer bees to this hemisphere for an experiment, now they're here!
Use the 10 Billion to clean up some of the toxic mess we're in.

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Wade Beckner, El Paso, TX — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 05:30:00 GMT

the only thing we have to fear is, fear itself. No danger in this experiment, except for the boundless imaginary possibilities.

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John Doe, Seattle, Wash. — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 06:38:56 GMT

When I read about this thing, I get freaked out. But then I think, if this thing could really destroy the world, wouldn't more people be up in arms trying to stop it? I mean, this isn't just the U.S. we're talking about, it's the world. Maybe everyone else is just waiting for someone else to do something? I'd like to think of normal U.S. citizens wouldn't object, leaders of foreign nations would. But I don't know enough about science to understand whether these risks are real or are just crazy conspiracies and silliness. I am trusting and hoping that the people who do understand this thing will do the right thing for the world.

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Anon, PA — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 06:45:09 GMT

Where to begin...there are so many uneducated responses here. First off anyone who is worried about a black-hole swallowing up earth needs to go back and review basic physics. Second atom colliders have been in operation for many years operating safely with no accidents. I find it funny when joe schmoe from nowhere questions if these people know what they are doing. I can honestly say these people know more about the subject matter than anyone of you brain dead idiots. Seriously go out get a life, put the bible down, and join us back in reality.

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Cosmo, military base, Iraq. — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 07:43:23 GMT

I read these comments and can’t believe what is coming out of some of your mouths or fingers to be exact. Some of you have watched too much TV. Do you really think that these teams of scientist are going to risk human existence? Seriously!? Go back to reading your crazy book that talks about humans waking on water and parting seas. It’s a joke people, calm down. Billions have been invested in this project and countless measures have been accounted for. They are doing crap that 99% of the bloggers from this article (including me) can’t even understand. Somebody said put it in laymen terms. FYI, this type of physics cannot be explained in laymen terms, oh, and the string theory doesn’t really involve real strings. It is all going to be OK, we will live past this experiment. Thanks for the laughs.

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John Re — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 07:47:50 GMT

65 Million years ago, there was a dinosaur named Computersaurus who built the first collider and look what happened to her. First she forgot to plug it in and then realized that the software was written by Microsaurus. After millions and millions of years, the scientists were certain that the answer was 42 - 101010.

Finally, if the world comes to an end before the USA becomes fully vested in fascism....Well perhaps we should all wait to see if the fascists steal another election before the first experiment.

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Joe Dough — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 08:49:32 GMT

I hope a man-made blackhole does gobble up the planet. Humanity has always been its own worst enemy. It would be poetic justice.

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Martin, FL — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 09:15:32 GMT

I find the level of ignorance in the replies to this blog to be staggering. These scientists have studied one of the most advanced topics ever developed for decades, and people on this board, most of whom have spent all of 20 minutes reading about this topic, are now suddenly experts in particle physics who feel themselves quailfied to bring up an issue as if these scientist had not throughly considered it a million times over. An issue so obvious, I might add, that any graduate student in physics or astronomy will already have considered it and dismissed it as ridiculous. I'm sorry people, get a grip.

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Ralph. — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 10:12:47 GMT

the nay sayers , these are the same people that belive that the world is flat, that we did not go to the moon,these are the same people that held back this world of ours in progress, because of these persons we as a whole are about 40 years behind development. Please go tell Dr Plaga's to bury his head in the sand, We get bombared with cosmic rays all day long with more energy than the LHC would ever create and yes there are no micrp black holes popping up all over the world. Please let Cern do ther job and the others go back to the cave era.

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D Smith, Atlanta GA — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:10:09 GMT

Passing Physics was hard enough. I think this adds at least 20 more questions to the final.

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ray smith — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:12:40 GMT

hey, there are natural LHC's in the universe, if some of the conjectures are correct there oughta be some mini black holes around jupiter and saturn, and what about the sun, talk about a VERY,VERY,VERY large hadron collider!!...get real people, the sky aint falling, the rain will come eventually so put away the sacrificial knives and lets get on climbing up the knowledge tree like we were intended to do. I agree that 10 billion is a lot of money but maybe just maybe it is better spent on peace rather than war.

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Michael Kent, Ohio — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:16:51 GMT

There is no risk. Collisions of this energy and far higher are common. They not only occur all over the universe,they occur in the upper atmosphere of our own planet. Not only have astrophysicists seen no evidence that any chain reaction of this type has ever happened,the earth has not been swallowed up. As for the black hole hypothesis, black holes evaporate at a rate which increases the smaller the black hole is. A black hole of that size/energy would evaporate a tiny fraction of a second. All this fear mongering is just the ranting of fringe lunatics.

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E. Pryor — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 12:15:10 GMT

I am by no stretch of the imagination a person who is an obstructionist of progress. However, how dare they risk anyone but themselves even if there is a remote possibility of the creation of a black hole or strangelet particles. The fate of the entire human race and future generations could be determined by this experiment. On September 10, we could wake up on an earth of dark matter or inside the event horizon of a black hole (if we wake up at all). Maybe this is the reason that there isn't abundant life out there. Once a race becomes intelligent enough to create a supercollider, then bye, bye. A more intelligent race would wait until it advances enough to understand and deal with the possible consequences. I guess that this is evolution on a cosmic scale.

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Darren Stuart, Jackson, Mississippi — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 12:21:48 GMT

The chance of a negative outcome is indeed small but not negligible. After all, one of the reserachers might fall and break his hip while walking down the stairs. Someone could catch a pencil in the eye. The chance of something resulting from this experiment having a large-scale destructive impact on the planet, however, cannot be said be be zero only becuase it is impossible to logically demonstrate that it is zero. But the possibility is infinitiesimally remote, as anyone with more than a high-school level of science education and a rudimentary grasp of rational thought should understand - far higher-energy impacts occur every day right here on Earth. For any of these doomsday scenarios to occur, our fundamental grasp of physics would need to be clearly flawed, and more than a century of experimentation demonstrates that it isn't.

This lawsuit is pseudoscientific scaremongering, and approximately as credible as creationism or spoon-bending. I hear Uri Geller is taking applications.

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David Howell, Tallahassee, FL — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 12:36:37 GMT

Just a common man's comment, but it seems that all great discoveries involve some risk. Many researchers and scientests have died trying to prove (or disprove) radical theories with experiments that have given rise to many of the elements that make our current lives so comfortable in so many ways.

This huge experimental hotbed NEEDS to be exercised, over and over again. There are fundamental questions that may be answered, basic tenets of the universe that have remained hidden till now because we didn't have the capability to marvel at their wonder.

Now we do...at least in part. My personal belief is that this hadron collider will end up creating more questions than it provides in answers. The smaller we see, the more there is to see. In the "infinite universe," there is the infinitely large and the infinitely small.

Some might say that only the "Eye of God" can see the infinitely small.

Perhaps we're approaching that degree of clarity in our vision. Perhaps not. But, it is a step in that direction.

Ultimately, we must understand the very basic elements of creation if we are to survive. We will not be able to occupy this planet for all time to come. The day will come when the information learned from the hadron collider will be fundamental in the discovery of HOW we will be able to leave this tiny and insignificant bit of space dust to find another bit of dust we can occupy and consume as we've done this planet.

We ARE consumers, there is no doubt. We will deplete this planet. I'm hopeful that the hadron collider comes in time to allow the giant leaps of knowledge about the infinitely small to be made and applied to our exit strategy from the planet Earth.

Just a common man's perspective.

Be talkin' to you.............Webrydr

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Jeff D, Boston, MA — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 12:38:18 GMT

"Your majesty, I seek your permission to send several ships westward. We may find new continents with vast riches and a faster way to reach China without going around the tip of Africa."

"But Christopher, the earth is flat. If you sail beyond the horizon, you will fall off the edge or get swallowed by huge sea serpents. Your experiment is too dangerous and I cannot permit it."

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bb — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:25:11 GMT

I expect if a black hole is created it will consume us all so quickly that we will not even know it - so what, all things come to an end at some time and then get recreated with a big bang.

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Wild Bill, The Great American Southwest — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:31:51 GMT

This is a interesting discussion. Both the pro's and the con's have voiced thier arguments very effectively. But in the end, it's what we out here on the prairie call The Code of the West. Which is simply, "A Man's Got to do What a Man's got to do."
There are plenty of reasons NOT to do something, just as there are equally good reasons TO DO the very same thing. Compelling arguments can be made by both sides, but in the end it comes down to THE CODE OF THE WEST. Whether you phrase it "A man..." or simply "Man" as in Mankind. We've got to do this. So sit back and learn something. There will be plenty of time for recriminations and "I told you so's" afterwards. Ride 'em cowboy and don't spare the spurs!

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Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:50:06 GMT

Alan,
Through a number of articles I've seen a lot of requests for more information or explanation and a lot of really good replies that break things down into terms almost anyone can understand. Outside of dialogue between a few distinct individuals I've only noticed a few courtesy replies indicating that the reply wasn't a total waste of time. Do you routinely get replies that aren't posted or does the effort, as far as you can tell, just go out into the ether? Wait, ether was never experimentally proven.

[ALAN ADDS: Tim, I just keep serving up the flapjacks and hope they're tasty enough that people keep coming back. So far it's been working. By the way, I recently received Frank Wilczek's book, titled "The Lightness of Being," in which the concept of the ether makes a bit of a comeback. But now it's called the Grid. Just goes to show that there's nothing new under the closest astronomical fusion-power source.]

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John Doe — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 15:10:00 GMT

Prudence would dictate that it would be far wiser to wait for the results of other experiments that seek to conclude whether Hawking Radiation is in fact real.
Only after such experiments reveal this to be true or not can it be safe to engage in the firing up of the LHC and ripping a hole in the fifth dimension. I hope you agree this is true, otherwise it's 50/50 that we get a new rip in space time we cannot mend.

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Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 15:44:40 GMT

The notion of "stranglets" transforming ordinary matter the same way a virus spreads is total science fiction. And the idea of stranglets even happening is beyond reality simply because it didn't happen 14 billion yeras ago. Star Trek makes a habit of using names that imply exotic matter..like "neutronium". Maybe the experiment will vindicate star trek ?

To the people runnimg scared of the new genie about to be released I say this, GET A LIFE !

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Dave, Los Angeles, California — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 16:18:15 GMT

It's great how some of the biggest idiots in America can come together to debate a topic that almost none of them is remotely qualified to even comment on. Keep these forums for the stupid alive I say!!!

P.S. To the few intelligent people who have left comments...you have no business being here!!!!!

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todd,olean, ny — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 16:22:25 GMT

Is it possible these things are whats knocking over all the construction cranes?

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MF, Mass. — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 16:28:04 GMT

To anyone wondering about why the EU is funding and building this; It cost $10Bil to create the largest and most usefull scientific experiment ever concieved. That is in Europe. It cost $24Bil to dig a deadly, leaky hole in Boston. YOUR elected officails make this happen. Remember this come November.

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Jeff, cincinnati, ohio — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 16:56:04 GMT

i love how people can throw out this all these made up threats that could happen that they heard from the right wing conservatives that if they had their way not even america would have been created. in about 5-10 years when we start seeing new products introduced to the world because of this i bet they won't be complaining anymore. now if only we would grow some and finish ours

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Rick, New Orleans, LA — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 16:57:35 GMT

I think the closed timelike curve they are discussing in the paper Time Machine at the LHC (arXiv:0710.2696v2 [hep-ph]) would be a very localized phenomenon and not universal. In otherwords the timelike curve would be very small (on the order of femto-seconds as the distances traveled by the ends of the wormholes during their brief lifetime would be very small (comparitively speaking). I would believe that the wormhole ends act very much like blackholes as they evaporate according to the inverse of the size of the blackhole. This would mean that the time-machine would be relatively useless for time travel unless one wanted to travel back a few femto-seconds for some reason.

As for a meta-stable black hole how would one hold together? The uptake mass would have to at least equal the mass lost due to the radiation output at the event horizon.

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Dan Rydzewski, Fort Knox KY — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 17:16:37 GMT

Geez people, its just a particle accelerator. Only thing ive personally observed from beam lines is an increase in radioactivity over many years of use. Just dont sit on the beam line and have your lunch, and you'll be fine.

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doug baker, Fort Collins, Co — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 18:12:02 GMT

Pat Biello, Sicklerville, NJ said,"
Why is it so important the know how the Univers got started? Lets spend that money too develope better means of space travel so we can find another planet to live after the Russia start WW3.

I think he answered his own question, the more we know about how the universe works, the more we can do with it, like space travel.

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MD Smith, Phila PA — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 18:15:17 GMT

I'm too young to have experienced it myself, but I'm told that people, somewhat predictably, exhibited the same uneducated, fear-mongering ignorance back when scientists were pioneering the practical applications of nuclear science. I realize we may have been better off without developing 'the bomb', let alone using it. But the advancement of this planet due to the scientific work done at the time (done at ANY time for that matter) has far exceeded any downside of nuclear application and has consistently shown this kind of ignorant ranting to be just that - ignorant ranting. I'm not a physicist, but I understand the science behind LHC and the search for the Higgs. The risk here is kind of like the display of human 'intelligence' contained in most of these posts...yeah, it's there, but in quantities not worth mentioning.

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Doug Baker, Fort Collins, Co — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 18:15:57 GMT

10 billion on science! Wow do you any of have any idea how much money is spent on many other much more worthless pursuits. i.e. capture a small country that has a rumor about weapons of mass destruction. Science only gets the crumbs that are left over it seems. Education and the environment also get very little over national insecurity concerns.

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RJG in SoCal — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 18:39:04 GMT

I realize it's a lot of fun for "people of science" to insult all of us "ignorant" "naysayers" and "brain-dead" individuals as nothing more than Chicken Littles with an active keyboard. But the reality is, when you dig deeper, you will see CERN's independent, third-party safety reviews are clearly lacking, and are merely set-up to "complement previous studies." They say there is "no conceivable threat from the LHC." But many of mankind's most famous tragedies came from "inconceivable threats" which, if those involved only had more imagination, would have seen clearly the threats-- such as icebergs, Chernobyl, and terrorists using aircraft as missles.

A healthy dialog about risks and rewards of the LHC should be encouraged and embraced -- but instead, CERN is more concerned with demonizing those who want us to move a bit slower examining the ramifications of these experiments. I think the people of this planet deserve more than a flippant response such as "we're still here aren't we?" when you're dealing with a much, much, much more powerful machine that can create temperatures "100,000 times hotter than the core of the sun" on Earth.

CERN: Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.

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Stephanie L. Lakeland, FL — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 18:50:08 GMT

I think science has done many wonderful feats in ushering us into the 21st Century. However how far will existentialist men go to quench their theories and fantasies of a map to life's hidden secrets. Some things are created not meant for humans to know nor discover but to simply exist as we do. I hope the judgement stands. The answers these men seek carry a heavy risk and price that outweighs the "What If" factor to be tested. God Help Us.

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We The People, Seattle, Wa. — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 19:00:22 GMT

For some to suggest that people wouldn't risk every single man woman and child's life in the name of science is retarded and sheepish. Lives are risked everyday through experimentation. The truth is that no matter how smart these people think they are, we actually have no idea what "could" happen. That's the point of experimentation. It's all theory. The comment that things like this have been going on for years and hasn't effected life as we know it may be true but look at it this way; once you increase the magnitude of something it changes the results. Anyone that claims to know everything that can and will happen is an idiot. I'm not for or against, I just think you tools that get on here and berate people because you're such geniuses should really stop pointing the finger. You're a idiot if you think you know everything and that there are never consequences to seeking the unknown.

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L. Roux, Seattle WA — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 19:25:42 GMT

My question is, is it possible to submit a simple set of questions to LHC for answers? Something along the lines of:

What is the probability that at full power the magnet used will affect either the earth's magnetic field or affect the earth’s core? If so, to what degree?

What is the chance that stray particles will find their way into the experiment?

What amount of energy may be released once the particles collide? How may it affect the surrounding area?

How likely is it that the magnet or the particles may affect the health of the local populations? (I'm thinking along the lines of how power lines can affect people)

I do feel that most of the answers to the questions won’t be available until after the experiment has been started/completed.

[ALAN ADDS: For the answers to these types of questions, you can check the CERN FAQ pamphlet:

http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/1092437/files/CERN-Brochure-2008-001-Eng.pdf

[The magnets are pretty strong, but I don't believe anyone expects them to have a significant effect on Earth's magnetosphere. Stray particles, as in cosmic rays, do find their way into the experiment. In fact, the two most expensive detectors, CMS and ATLAS, have been picking up cosmic rays for quite some time. The amount of energy for the proton collisions is a maximum of 14 trillion electron volts. For one collision, that's less powerful than clapping your hands together ... but that energy is concentrated into a tiny point. Read the FAQ for an explanation. The experiment is about 330 feet below the surface (33 stories down), so the expectation is that there will be no radiation effect on the surface. No people will be allowed in the tunnel or the detector caverns during a run, due to the radiation risk. That's standard procedure for particle accelerators.]

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Ralph E. — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 19:40:28 GMT

Sadly, theres a 50/50 chance something could go horribly wrong with this machine. Many distinguished scientists are fighting this thing from starting up because they realize the affects it could have. There are many articles out there written by accreditied doctors and scientists that completely argues the fact that this machine is safe. If I were you, I would keep my children home from school on September 10th and cherish life with them for just a bit longer.

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jc — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 19:43:55 GMT

To the smart people here - I CAN believe so many uninformed people have opinions... they always do, and my belief is that sensationalism runs rampant through the idiots of this world. Uninformed idiots typically stay that way, and whine about silly things, but the fact of the matter is that all of their uninformed energies never get put towards anything except spreading the sensationalism through other idiots, and it's typically the other idiots who have NO influence in the workings of the world... quite simply put, ignore them!

To the rest of you: What are you afraid of them finding? "god" intelligently designed everything, and if "god" intelligently designed particles that are going to swallow us up 5,000ish years after "god" made us, then it's still clearly his will...

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doug baker, fort collins — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 19:45:07 GMT

"100,000 times hotter than the core of the sun" on Earth
Yes, but for a very small amount of matter.

We already make tempatures on earth that are hotter than the sun. In fact, a simple 1 watt laser can do this.
a quick google:
http://www.laserfx.com/Science/Science4.html
Due to the law of the conservation of energy, the energy density (measure of energy per unit of area) of the laser beam increases as the spot size decreases. This means that the energy of a laser beam can be intensified up to 100,000 times by the focusing action of the eye. A one watt laser beam when focused down to a small spot can produce temperatures higher than the surface temperature of the sun!

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Mike Gutierrez — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 20:15:11 GMT

Don't sail too far from shore or you will fall off the edge of the Earth. Don't fly past the speed of sound or your body will implode. If you detonate an atomic bomb it will start a chain reaction that will burn off the entire atmosphere and kill the whole planet. Don't fire up the collider or you will create a black hole that will eat the Earth.

Some things never change.

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Gavin, Stillwater, Oklahoma — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 20:20:57 GMT

I would trust the physicists at the CERN particle-physics lab and similar projects far more than any other source. Also, since we have the technological capability to explore such theories, I see no reason to restrain progress in the name of fear of the unknown.
Next, I am sure that most, if not all western nations have their fingers in this project.
I agree with Thomas Ashby that “strangelets” (if they exist) are EXTREMELY unlikely to transform normal matter and almost definitely would not spread. Also, Black Holes are supposed to be extremely dense objects (like burned out stars) the gravitational fields of which are so great that even light cannot escape. How could mere mortals, at our level of technology, possibly create such a powerful force?
Finally, enough with the doomsday prophecies! No one can know when the world is going to end unless they are planning on ending it themselves! The civil lawsuit is likely from obstructionists who feel that the project would question their beliefs, not that they actually think it will destroy the world.

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David — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 20:25:20 GMT

Hey! Didn't these guys PLAY Half-Life!?

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kay, hanson ky — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 21:01:27 GMT

Well , its in the Bible,they will and open the gates of hell. 09? ok hows about 9-9-09 are you ready?

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Jeff Liston, Great Falls, Montana — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 21:12:36 GMT

What if all the other black holes, at the center of nearly every other galaxy in the universe, were created by intelligent lifeforms experimenting with collider's. Kind of mind blowing heh?

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Robb, STL — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 21:36:07 GMT

Don't forget Torchwood and the Osterhagen Key...

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God, Heaven — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 21:42:27 GMT

If you kids don't quit fooling around you're going to break something!

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Albert V. Jr. — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 22:18:49 GMT

"I told you so!"

One of two sides will be saying this. No one & I stress that - NO ONE knows for sure who will be saying that. To say otherwise one may as well say they know the nature behind everything else grounded around us and that doing this test will fill the gaps. We're still making head way with stem cell research, discovering new species that shed light into our evolution & existence, and waiting on a new President to undo all that has been wrought (can it be done or should we just end it all? I'll take one LHC please!) - and that being said we still have much to learn without using this test/experiment. Yet.

Those executing (har har) the experiment and still standing will cheerfully in all bewildered and enlightened excitement yet in casual bravado utter -"It has come to our conclusion we are still here. Told you so."
Now if it's the other side, those who raise a good point of us not knowing ALL the possible outcomes - I'll have to correct myself - there just might not be anyone left to say "I told you so" but rather some cosmic echo of what once was.

What I don't understand is why such an experiment of uncertain results (cause & effect) isn't up for vote by those who collectively inhabit this blue ball. We might claim territories and fight over who gets what - mine mine mine; but as a whole there should be a say by those who matter - which would be EVERYONE. I know I know - enough with Democracy, but who says a little commom courtesy for neighbors doesn't have weight here?

We can't figure out a common peace to live together but we're willing to find those cosmic answers with existence on the line so to say?

The show however will go on, the test - zap zoom kaboom kablooie - and I hope, pray we're all here to talk and laugh about it (our fear of the unknown, that which humbles us till found & lost) and rejoicing in knowledge we all hope is worth it.

I do wish we could put the test on Mars or somewhere remote, in case we don't hear "I told you so" so that we can at least give a proper applause for those who sought too much a bit too early in the game. I'd be lying if I were to say I'm not curious to see what happens. Playing with what we don't COMPLETELY understand just doesn't sound right, then again that could just be me though in all my goofiness.

In the meantime - I'll be counting how many licks it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie-Pop and hope the LHC doesn't beat me to it.

Till next time (I hope)......waiting in excitement to hear - "Told you so!"

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Robert Briggs, Hartford, Ct. — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 22:21:16 GMT

There is also quite a good possibility that NOTHING NEW happens when they reach full power, which would nearly be as meaningful as finding a whole new particle zoo.

As far as "the aether" goes - isn't that just about what the theoretical Higgs field and particles are the new version of? They're everywhere, even denser than neutrinos, and affecting everything that passes by? Or are we meaning the physical medium that the electroweak forces "wave in", kind of like, umm, a supersymmetrical version of caloric? Heh...

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E. Pryor — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 23:36:41 GMT

Thomas Ashby-
I assure you that some resonable scientists believe in the possibility that strangelets could be made in this experiment. See references below.
"Will relativistic heavy ion colliders destroy our planet?", Phys. Lett. B470:142-148 (1999)
"Strange stars", Astrophys. Journal 310, 261 (1986)
J. Madsen, "Strangelets as cosmic rays beyond the GZK-cutoff", Phys. Rev. Lett. 90:121102 (2003)
J. Madsen, "Strangelet propagation and cosmic ray flux",Phys. Rev. D71, 014026 (2005)
^ J. Madsen, "Intermediate mass strangelets are positively charged", Phys. Rev. Lett. 85 (2000) 4687-4690 (2000)

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Marc, Reading, PA — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 02:00:49 GMT

Alan,
Thank you for your report. I remember when OMNI magazine asked for "Future Bumper Stickers". The one I remember best said "The meek shall inherit the Earth! The rest of us will escape to the stars!" Please hurry up & take me with you!

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Mason Taylor, Vina del Mar, Chile — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 02:09:42 GMT

Let the end come; we have so much more to gain with knowledge than we have to lose - besides, if we all are extinguished, how are we gonna know?

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Athanasius, New Bedford, Massachusetts — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 02:26:06 GMT

Why are the self-identified "smart people" engaging in ad hominem attacks on anyone raising a legitimate question about this project's potential ill effects? All you see are "idiots", "creationists", etc. Epithets instead of explanations. These people may not know particle physics, but at least they are interested and literate enough to be reading this article! They deserve better than that. In reading these comments, they are not the ones who look ignorant, those who are defending the LHC are the ones who look ignorant. Are they all incapable of countering concerns without insults?
By the way, I support the LHC, but the risk of something bad happening IS NOT ZERO. And you cannot compare this to Columbus, for if he did fall off the edge of the Earth, only he and his expedition would die, not every inhabitant of Madrid, or Europe for that matter.

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Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 02:51:49 GMT

Anon,
In basic physics we were taught about black holes. They’re big, scary things to have in the neighbor’s back yard. We through the term MBH around, people who do understand basic physics see and understand the BH part and, in as much as an understanding of basic physics is concerned, they are rightfully scared. There is a problem when people come in on an article like this, it is not very educational. Previous articles have been, and if people knew to go back and read those a lot of those fears would be put to rest.
Second thing [...] is yes, atom smashers have been operating all this time. Never at the energy levels this is capable of, which is the point of having this one. We hope to see new stuff come out. Is everybody comfortable with the idea that the stuff we’ve never seen before will be perfectly safe? Should everybody be? [...]

Michael Kent,
MBHs evaporating the same way regular black holes do may not be right. There is an incredibly different dynamic in place. I’ve seen a lot of allusions to Hawking radiation but haven’t seen anything where the theory has actually been run against a MBH. That aside, with that different dynamic, I don’t think a MBH, if it can be made, can self sustain. It would just “pop” back to a sustainable state, no evaporation, almost no time (my thinking).

Darren Stuart,
I don’t think the lawsuit is scaremongering. I think it’s a valiant effort by some guys who are absolutely off their nut and scared themselves into thinking their fears are justified. Laughable yes, but sincere.
I also think creationism is quite credible.

Dave,
Maybe the intelligent are the only ones who belong. Or maybe they belong for the sake of the unqualified idiots. I think you have this confused with a white paper site.

Todd,
Construction cranes are toppled by Newtonian physics.

RJG,
Yes, it is kind of fun.
The Titanic sank because of impurities in the steel that made it brittle. Metallurgists didn’t understand that at the time. Had the steel had its expected strength the Titanic would have been making runs in the ‘60s. Maybe it would have been “The Love Boat.” Icebergs, meltdowns and planes as missiles were all open, clearly seen, known threats. For Chernobyl and 9/11 carelessness and complacency were to blame.
A healthy dialogue is encouraged. Healthy is not the same as people whining because they won’t accept findings that don’t support their fears.

L. Roux,
Building a city has more magnetic effect where people live than will be felt from the collider. That just from the metal in the structures and power lines, not even the power itself, so during a blackout. Neither will create much of a ripple in the magnetosphere. Like dropping a rock into a stormy sea, well a rolling ocean. Magnetic lines repel each other, so any powerful magnetism disperses quickly with distance. It’s all they can do to keep it focused at the site, you get more magnetic disruption from passing cars and solar flares.

Ralph E. said, “[T]heres a 50/50 chance something could go horribly wrong with this machine.
I guess there’s a 50/50 chance I’ll win the lottery. Either I will or I won’t.

E. Pryor,
The point is they’d have been made elsewhere. Our experiments don’t come close to nature. Not yet. So nature would have made them. Let’s assume that’s the case. Maybe our sun has made billions of the little buggers. Our sun hasn’t transformed into all strangelets. Logic says that producing strangelets on earth wouldn’t transform earth into strangelets. As that is what makes strangelets strange his next conclusion is spot on. Unless dark matter is strange. Oh, crap.

Pass the syrup.

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Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 05:21:31 GMT

E Pryor: Ok.. but spreading like a virus and eating the world?

Also, here is what wiki says in a general way "According to the strange matter hypothesis, strangelets are more stable than nuclei, so nuclei are expected to decay into strangelets. But this process may be extremely slow because there is a large energy barrier to overcome: as the weak interaction starts making a nucleus into a strangelet, the first few strange quarks form strange baryons, such as the Lambda, which are heavy. Only if many conversions occur almost simultaneously will the number of strange quarks reach the critical proportion required to achieve a lower energy state. This is very unlikely to happen, so even if the strange matter hypothesis were correct, nuclei would never be seen to decay to strangelets because their lifetime would be longer than the age of the universe."

Stable nuclei are lower energy states. Read this in wiki. It addresses all the concerns http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strangelet

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Donut Whatever — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 06:51:33 GMT

If this experiment means that some day with just a "thought" its possible to enjoy "things" than let the "Games Begin!".

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Shawn, bentonville ar — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 10:35:35 GMT

For all of those who think there is risk involved, consider this. Did you know that because of particle physics, and our mathematical understanding of how things work on an atomic and sub atomic level, you can mathematically calculate the provability of falling asleep and your entire body dematerializing, and then re materialize on mars. This could actually happen because of how atoms behave on a quantum level.
Now, the odds are so remote for this happening, you would have to live a google years for it to happen to you. A google years is 1 with 100 zeros after it. So there is a risk of this happening to you everyday, but yet, you don't freak out over it. In science you can not prove that there is 0% chance of anything happening, it is not possible. You can not prove that 2+2 will always equal 4. There is a chance that it can equal something else. Sounds crazy, but that is Typographic Number Theory, or TNT. These scientists know more about this stuff than most of you will ever know about anything. To say there is risk is absolutely ignorant and uneducated. Remember chances of this collider causing a doomsday scenario, is the same as you disappearing and reappearing instantaneously on another planet.

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mmn, tahlequah, ok — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 15:24:10 GMT

My birthday is September 10, at least I will have made it another year if this thing does destroy the earth (I really don't think it will). I don't think there is any way we could ever produce astronomical energy, or make heat 100,000 times the heat of the sun. That idea is giving us humans way too much credit.

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John, Bethlehem, PA — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 18:21:49 GMT

Pseudoscientific fearmongering. That should be the Sesame Street word of the day. The scary part is that it works precisely because so few of us are willing to spend the time to become scientifically literate. Fear of the unknown is a basic human instinct, but until you actually walk into the unknown and poke it with a stick, you won't ever find out if your fears were justified. The controversy over this project merely illustrates some of the fundamental flaws in our educational system.

Honestly, I'm far more concerned about whether the people building the LHC are actually capable of the incredible feats of engineering precision required to ensure that it works at all. I have a sick feeling that the next year or so will be spent working bugs out of the device than testing our fundamental assumptions about the universe.

However, if the LHC does work and does perform up to our expectations and hopes, then the amount of scientific knowledge that it can potentially deliver more than justifies its cost. Fundamental science ALWAYS pays off in the long term. $10 billion is a pittance to spend on such a valuable project; it's far less than the amount spent to go to the Moon, and that particular endeavour has returned incalculable benefits to all of Mankind. You could pay for the LHC with a week's worth of the money spent in Iraq, or by cutting off farm subsidies (something that would also dramatically improve world food supply, FYI).

Lastly, if the LHC should, by the remotest chance, annihilate our planet, I'll rest easy in the knowledge that it'll take all the idiots with it.

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Wutwusdat? — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 20:06:46 GMT

I think we should do whatever the smart people say. They are really ,really smart, what could go wrong ?
But if it does go wrong, death will be instantaneous and painless right ? As long as we're not all caught up in stretched time while in the process of dematerializing I'm ok with a little experimentation to advance our knowlege.

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cmac — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 20:08:53 GMT

Looking at the comments here I weep for the general ignorance of most people.

Let me help you:

Black Holes - Any black holes formed would be tiny. They emit a lot of Hawking radiation and die almost immediately after they have been born. They will also be travelling at incredible speeds, so even if one managed to defy physics and remain in existence, it would be exiting Earth's atmosphere at relative speeds to forever travel in a straight line through space.

Strangelets - Strangelets are almost completely theoretical at this point. If they do exist, they too would exit at great speeds. If they did manage to turn any other matter into strangelets, it would be as they impact them with great velicity, almost assuring all would be expelled from our solar system within minutes.

Anti-Matter - We produce a few grams of the stuff a year. There really is no danger from this. Even if it is produced, it would release it's energy as soon as it contacted any matter. There isn't enough being produced to create a large explosion as some fear.

The reason scientists can't guarantee 100% that nothing bad will happen is because there is an infinitely small chance that matter could collide completely head on and lose all velicity in the process. This is EXTREMELY unlikely, but not 100% unlikely. If this was a black hole it wouldn't matter because the hole would remain within a vacuume within a magnetic bottle 300feet underground. Meaning it would still likely starve. Strangelets would just sit there until we found a way to eject them (more high speed bombardment). Anti Matter would (again) release it's energy as soon as it came out of the bottle, causeing little or no damage.

So please educate yourself. Stop letting others fill you with fear, and trust that 1200 CERN scientists are no more willing to end their own collective lives with a risky "end of world" scenario than you are.

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Andrew L — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 20:12:02 GMT

Some of the comments here just reflect the fact that the average US citizen believes more in science fiction than in science fact. The growing ignorance of the US is profoundly disturbing. Science has been largely responsible for our modern standard of living as well as our national defense (It can easily be argued that science and physics in particular won WWII). For some, a return to the dark ages of fear and superstition has great appeal, for if the masses are ignorant they are easily led and mislead. I fear for my country as ignorance is seemingly being embraced by more and more each day. Learning and knowledge is hard, ignorance is easy.

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circuitburner — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 22:18:17 GMT

I think, you know, like we could get along with the black holes should the arrise. Be nice to them. Dont offend them. Be diplomatic, and maybe they will stay small and not gobble up too much matter.
If we could train them, we could domesticate them and use them to solve the worlds trash problem.
Going even further, we could offer negative-mass burials, building demolition, and Storm and Hurricane Removal.
Im all for it.

Final countdown for collider

Michael, Airway Heights, WA — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 23:00:06 GMT

Seems to be a bunch of fuss over nothing. If the world ends when they fire this thing up what does it matter? You won't be around to clean up the mess, but if it works like they say it will and discoveries are made that benefit humankind, turn it on!

I could be wrong (usually am) but the same basic thing was said concerning nuclear explosions. Why does the chain reaction stop? I sure don't know but hundreds of bombs have been tested and every one stopped exploding. We're still here.

Final countdown for collider

christopher cebu philippines — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 23:26:35 GMT

After reading these opinions, I see the fine line between extraordinary accomplishment and the Salem witchhunts is alive and well. Even in the scientific world we have no shortage of arm chair quarterbacks except this time they have lawyers. So sad.

Final countdown for collider

Sarah Benjamin- Riyadh, KSA — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 04:30:29 GMT

Ok, after reading all the 'almost logic' and 'bozo', 'believers' and 'atheists', 'scientists' and 'plain ORDINARY people'...& so on comments... primary opinion of onself kinda gets lost between the lines. and it's kind of interesting how we use and confuse the concepts of scientific and Creationist 'Facts'- let's face it...we're all confused and those who made fun of other's opinions are only afraid of 'something actually going wrong', and they have every reason to be! I mean, haven't we all studied (and agreed) with Newton's third law (in basic physics):'To every action there's an equal and OPPOSITE reaction' back in sixth grade??? who knows what type of reaction this LHC thing would produce!! Yet, we can't just lay aside something people are suddenly afraid of after being theriorized, observed, tested over and over and over for many years, then simply throw out the window like nothing!THAT'S PURE INSULT! besides, they've already invested 10 billion... 10 BILLION PEOPLE! Throw into waste just because a few minds were afraid of expanding their view of science!?! I mean, it's like wanting to open the frist Coke ever made, but yet afraid it would explode at your face and cause injuries cuz you know it's being pressurly filled!!! ...what a different world it would have been if they used that money to solve world's major problems, though...
i say...(don't wanna say it though)give the LHC a chance to 'quarterly' function and see what would happen. The consequences of the experiment (if worse than little that might occur) are the brainiacs' to bear and held accountable to. Besides, it would be their losses and only proving them 'people with fantasies (most importantly WRONG)', which i think is 'unlikely' to occur. If it does, then this message goes to them...'YOU DID NOTHING BUT MADE INCREDIBLE, HUGE FOOLS OF YOURSELVES.' Otherwise, abort the experiment, pay back the money for better use and save yoursevles from mockery!

Final countdown for collider

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 09:38:32 GMT

Athanasius,
The “attacks” are because the “idiots” are raising the question for the umpteenth time. Unfortunately, some of them don’t realize it. This article amounts to nothing more than an update in an ongoing series. The same legitimate questions keep coming up. The same stupid questions keep coming up as well. I haven’t really been paying much attention, but would guess that the real attacks come against the people that raise a question without even reading the comments for the article they’re commenting on and their question has already been addressed. Nothing left then but to address the commenter. The “self identified ‘smart people’” you refer to have probably been involved in this discussion for months at least and keep seeing the same drivel over and over. Stupidity, laziness and repetition can wear smart people down.
I agree with you, though. Just don’t see a reasonable way around it. There are a few thousand comments to wade through in past articles. I wouldn’t ask the casually interested to read them all before posting a comment. I’ve gotten out of some discussions because postings blew up from 30 or so when I came in then over a weekend 450. I’d at least want posters to read the comments attached to the article.

Final countdown for collider

E. Pryor — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 21:10:52 GMT

For those who say that we would have already seen the sun (that acts as a supercollider) turn into "strange matter" already if it were possible consider this:

(1)Large atoms (like Lead) do not collide in nature at LHC energies, not even in the Sun, especially since there are no large atoms in the core of the Sun. Therefore the Sun could not produce Strangelets.
(2)It is true that cosmic rays are more energetic than the LHC- so why havent cosmic rays converted Earth into Strange Matter? It is because the cosmic rays that hit earth pass through at nearly the speed of light. Strangelets produced by cosmic rays would also pass at near light speeds. The strangelets made in the lab will be stationary relative to the lab and could cause considerable havoc especially since it could not escape the Earth's gravity.
(3) Why hasn't the strangelets converted the whole universe yet? It just about has, if it can be proven that "dark matter" is actually made of strange matter.
Most of our universe is made of "dark matter", or matter that can only be observed through it's gravitational pull. This is a type of matter that is fundamentally different than ordinary matter.
(3) Micro-black holes would not evaporate. Hawking himself said he was wrong about that. The black hole would be stuck, unable to escape Earth's gravitational pull and possible steal electrons from nearby atoms and enlarge.
(4) Strange matter is more stable than ordinary matter and converts the matter around it into stange matter.
(5) someone stated that it would be extremely slow for strange matter to decay because of the large energy barrier. That is true, however the energy in the LHC would be the energy to overcome the barrier. The NATURAL decay of nuclear matter into quark matter would take until the sun burns out. But the conditions of the LHC allow the energy barrier to be overcome.

Even if it does not happen on Sept 10, it may happen another time as long as that thing is operational. I hope that the science of strange matter is wrong though and that the CERN scientists are right about the danger.

[ALAN ADDS: I'll leave others to continue the discussion about strange matter, but on the issue of particle-scale black holes, I don't think Stephen Hawking has changed his mind about Hawking radiation. I've linked to this material before, but just to bring people up to speed, here's how Hawking handled the topic in a Q&A at Caltech in April, as reported by the Los Angeles Times:

[Q: According to general relativity, white holes, the opposite of black holes, which spew matter into the universe, can exist. But we’ve never found them. What would we see with our telescopes if we did?

[A: When black holes are large, things fall in. but they give off very little Hawking radiation. So they are essentially black. But when they are very small they radiate more than they accrete. So they are essentially white. Black and white holes are the same, just with different boundary conditions. If the boundary conditions are that particles are going in, but nothing is coming out, we call it a black hole. On the other hand, if the boundary conditions are that particles are going out but nothing is coming in, we call it a white hole.

[Q: If black holes are created in the Large Hadron Collider, will we be in danger of getting eaten up by them?

[This question refers to the construction outside Geneva, Switzerland, of the world’s most powerful collider, which is expected to begin operations this summer. Some skeptics fear it will generate such powerful energies that it could create mini-black holes.

[A: The LHC is absolutely safe. There is no danger that collisions between particles at the LHC will cause a rip in space-time and destroy the universe. Particles from collisions far greater than those in the LHC occur all the time in cosmic rays, but nothing terrible happens.]

Final countdown for collider

E. Pryor — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 02:47:52 GMT

Alan,

I think lots of physicists don't believe in black holes "evaporating", and that "Hawking radiation" is not a good theory. Unfortunately, it is one of the theories that the CERN scientists are using to say that the collider is safe. Hawking has been wrong many times before. Einstein's theories require a black hole to grow in size, not evaporate. Who are you going to believe- Einstein (E=MC2) or Hawking? I am not saying to totally scrap the effort, but to slow it down and think, why rush? If Hawking is wrong, on Sept 10 or at another time, a black hole might form, enlarge, and eventually destroy us. There is a great probability of black holes being formed from this and if Hawking is wrong, we are toast.

Final countdown for collider

David, Los Angeles, CA — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 05:56:01 GMT

I agree with E. Pryor. The fact is, the justification most scientists are giving for this machine being safe is COMPLETELY irrelevant. They claim that because what this experiment does happens in space, its safe. WRONG. They fail to take into account that the conditions in space are completely different from conditions here. The energies that will be produced at the LHC are far greater then what is produced in space AND are produced under a completely different environment.

Many reputable scientists agree that the odds that this could lead to catastrophe are as high as 2 to 1! This monstrosity must be stopped before its too late!

Final countdown for collider

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 11:33:38 GMT

E. Pryor,
Stars make large atoms. That's where most large atoms come from. There are huge, hot, fast burners, there are small, cool, slow burners, there are stars in between. It is safe to assume that there are higher energy collisions all the time, to the point that it's ridiculous to say they don't happen. If strangelets were produced then evetually at least a few would come to rest in the star that produced them, it's like firing a bullet into BBs. If strangelets exist, and pose the danger you suggest, there'd be no novas. There are novas. So don't worry.

Final countdown for collider

mrG — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 16:13:00 GMT

As with the Manhattan Project, I expect the expected perpetual chain reaction will again not happen due to Nature's natural dampening mechanisms and, as with the Manhattan Project, I expect the researchers will again pull the trigger and then express profound remorse for what they have unleashed.

Final countdown for collider

E. pryor — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 23:34:32 GMT

From what I know about how large atoms are made, they are only made when stars go supernova, not when they are active like our sun is. The energies are too great in the core. I think there is only hydrogen and helium at the core of a star.

Final countdown for collider

Carlton, Kamuela, Hawaii — Sat, 30 Aug 2008 16:03:15 GMT

WHY WORRY ABOUT THE LHC?
Postcards on Cape Cod had an elderly fisherman in a nor'wester saying "I've had many troubles, but most of them never happened."
For those who believe in a benevolent God, one is inclined to reply "O ye of little faith" to worriers about the LHC.
For those who believe in a malevolent God, the LHC isn't anywhere malevolent enough for such a God.
For those who don't believe in God, what difference does it make, no purpose (all a matter of chance) no pain. (If one believes that there is purpose, not all just a matter of chance, one may be placed in the benevolent God group if "purpose" is taken as a good.) Does "purpose" guarantee God? Depends on your definitions of "purpose" and "God", but a universe with "purpose" (intelligence too?) can lead one to a belief in "God". One could, also, say that making "chance" the source of everything smacks of making "chance" a god of sorts. There does seem to be a problem with associating chance with a God that does not arise when associating purpose with a God when common defintions are used.
WHY WORRY, ENJOYING IS MORE FUN. PURPOSE MAY INCLUDE MEANING, MAKING MORE ENJOYMENT. ENJOY! :-)

Final countdown for collider

David, Los Angeles, CA — Sun, 31 Aug 2008 03:43:03 GMT

Thank GOD! There are ACTUALLY some people that care enough about the Earth to take some action:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/2650665/Legal-bid-to-stop-CERN-atom-smasher-from-destroying-the-world.html

Support these people as much as you can IF YOU CARE ABOUT THE EARTH AND THE LIVES OF YOURSELVES AND YOUR CHILDREN!

this is the last hope to save our planet.

Final countdown for collider

The Inventor, Los Alamitos, CA — Sun, 31 Aug 2008 05:48:59 GMT

The DATA will be out of focus, the geometry will be incorrect, and the program that massages the DATA and outputs the view the DATA will be dimensionally insufficient, to properly view the DATA.

Final countdown for collider

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Sun, 31 Aug 2008 19:42:10 GMT

E. Pryor,
Those are being used for fuel. I don’t remember much detail and couldn’t find anything in a quick wiki. From memory, so probably only vaguely correct, most stars produce up to carbon, some stars (red dwarfs or giants?) produce up to iron, really heavy atoms require supernovae. So to actually get lead, yes, a supernova is required, or it might be just novae that collapse into a neutron star, but it’s out of the ordinary. And I think most lead is from decay of larger atoms. Energy level wise, carbon collisions have got to be pretty hefty. I think carbon and lead exist in similar stability points, as nuclei formation goes. So anything special about lead, I’d expect to be special about carbon for our purposes here. So a lot of carbon, and some lead that went into solar production – as it is in earth, should be involved in high energy collisions or bombardment by cosmic radiation – which would happen in all directions, not just out. Plenty of chance over the years, millennia, ages, eons, I don’t know what quantifier to use here, for production of all manner of evil. The sun, and all the other stars we see, have had ample opportunity to be swallowed up by MBHs or changed into strangelets or open up transdimensional highways or any of the other things people raise concern over. And yet our sun is still our sun.
Anyone who cares to help with my ignorance is welcome to. I'm just not willing to spend hours and hours relearning stuff that obviously mattered so little that I forgot it.

Final countdown for collider

Hugh Macintyre — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 00:09:15 GMT

I`m excited about this experiment, but!! with the amount of magnets they are using in the tunnels, could this not have an effect on magnetic north, ie if that changed the axis of the earth then we would slip into an ice age. I read in a science magazine around 6 months ago, this experiment was to find out if time travel would be possible by this experiment, so as they said it will answer most things. I`m sure they know what they are doing as cern has been open since 1952 or 4 and have been working on this project and building and spent £6 billion over the past 20 years. Be proud of this point of time in your life, our parents witnessed 1st man on the moon, now its hour turn to witnessss this new era, a new chapter in the science that has leaped the technology to what we have today.

Final countdown for collider

Hugh macintyre, scotland — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 00:29:47 GMT

Watch this space, the next big thing after this will be fully concentrated on space, along with new knowledge and after the success i`m sure that will come from this experiment, governments will pour loads more money into space exploration.

Final countdown for collider

E. Pryor — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 13:58:59 GMT

Even if larger atoms are in the LHC, they don't collide in a star at LHC energies. They are trying to re-create energies that existed m "roseconds after the big bang, when atoms didn't exist yet. From what I read, collisions of this magnitude don't happen in nature in particles of this mass. To make things worse, Hawking radiation is just an unproven theory, just like strangelets and the possibility of micro-black holes. How can you disprove one theory with another?

Final countdown for collider

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 17:44:53 GMT

E. Pryor,
Here’s a copy of a post I recently submitted. It references his site, which is interesting. That post deals with the collisions better than I did here.
I don’t think they’re trying to recreate those energies. On a small scale these experiments may result in the same, or very similar, stuff that appeared in the “2nd stage” of the big bang. Kind of smashing particles into component plasma and seeing what the plasma is. Darned hot, but nowhere near Big Bang hot.
In a star system, because of magnetic fields, the truly cosmic rays are scattered or diffused. These are the high energy, really fast, particles that were accelerated by supernovae or quasars and traverse the vastness of interstellar and maybe intergalactic space. As below, you’d expect them to sometimes hit, and some of those hits to be head on, nature’s LHC. You’d also expect some high energy, head on collisions between cosmic rays and magnetically accelerated solar wind, so super fast alpha particles and really fast lead ions, within a stars gravitational influence.
I have previously addressed decay by Hawking radiation but not here. I’ve actually come to the conclusion that MBHs can’t exist. However, all of these theories are based on the Standard Model with assumptions. Some of the assumptions are used in multiple theories. If you have to have A, B, C, D and E to get a MBH and A, B, C, D and F to get Hawking radiation, then once you assume MBHs only F is in question. So in a lot of instances “using a theory” is simply the statement that when you assume this thing you’re giving me the A, B, C and D I need. In that case the tacit statement is also that if you argue against my A you also argue against the thing. In THIS discussion, many times people fear the MBH which depends on A being true, without A there can be no MBH, then question the validity of Hawking radiation because it depends on unknown, unproven theoretical conditions like A.
Copy/Paste (after a couple of grammatical fixes) of another post:

James Tankersley Jr Co-Admin, LHCFacts.org, concerning MBH production wrote, “I would prefer that confirmation of safety (this safety issue involved the possible production of hitherto unknown particles) happen prior to operation of the Large Hadron Colli(d)er.”
I took a look at your site, not unimpressive. I didn’t check for it exhaustively, but did fail to find anything about collisions inside a star. You (your site generally) dismiss MBHs that may be created by cosmic rays striking the earth (or surrounding) or other planets because the really fast cosmic rays would result in MBHs having such velocity that they would leave planetary proximity prior to performing any damaging acts. You state a degree of fear that the LHC would produce a MBH at relative rest to earth. High energy cosmic rays strike the earth from all angles without any pronounced concentration direction. That is, they move randomly throughout the solar system, at least. This would mean that they must strike each other, at least occasionally. Some of these strikes must duplicate what is to be seen in the LHC, therefore if MBHs are to be created at relative rest, they must have been created at relative rest within our solar system, as well as countless other, over vast time. Being at rest they would be gravitationally pulled toward some body. While it is possible that gravitational acceleration toward the sun could result in orbital speed as it passes a planet and it gets caught harmlessly in orbit, the odds are greatest that it would be produced outside the planetary plane and continue into the sun, or, if planets were involved at all, that it would fall into a planet, not burning up in it’s atmosphere. If stable MBHs can be produced, surely they have been, and have fallen into the sun, which has not been swallowed up by them.
It seems to me that our star, as well as countless others, should be your confirmation of safety and quell your fears. To not accept this you must say one of the following:
1. There is no high energy cosmic particle radiation.
2. This radiation exists but does not hit under conditions similar to those at LCH.
3. The radiation does exist and does collide under conditions similar to those at LHC, producing the feared at rest MBH, but …
My questions to you:
1. Do you hold the nonexistence of high energy cosmic particle radiation?
If the answer is yes, then ‘nuff said. You’ll be dismissed as any other moron with a pat on the head and a jelly bean.
2. Do you hold that this radiation exists but does not collide as in the collider?
If the answer is yes then please, for my benefit, explain how it would always miss.
3. ?
If you go with #3, please finish the but with something credible. Explain how the many MBHs that would have been created in every system have not reduced every system into black holes, but it would still happen on earth.
4. ?
Maybe I missed something. Perhaps you can explain away this natural occurrence some other way. Please do so.

This is in the “Report Rules Out Subatomic Doomsday” article from 6/20/08. Too soon for a reply yet, perhaps in the coming days.

Final countdown for collider

N.A. , Victoria , BC , Canada — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 20:49:44 GMT

The black holes created will evaporate instantaneously for all practical consideration. What some of the informed nay sayers are uncomfortable about , is the fact that the most informed in the pro camp wont stand up and say theres no chance of doomsday happening. Why wont they, when it would obviously quell the assault of ignorance?

Thats what makes me uncomfortable.

As far as my knowledge takes me and that is a considerable distance on this topic , I am concerned that the focus of energy may produce something a cosmic ray collision will not. In the case of the ray , it usualy strikes something of relatively lower energy. In this case , the beam strikes another beam of equal energy. Equivalent kinetics , but I just hope the people in charge approach this experiment with an extra dose of respect. I am reasonably sure that even if something unexpected happens it will not be an ELE event, however , though Im sure well know something nasty happened.

The people that created the atom bomb were reasonably sure that it wouldnt catch the atmosphere on fire and incinerate the earth. Many have been appalled by this revalation , and rigthly wonder why even if they considered there was a remote chance of this happening , we ever did it at all. That argument is equally sound on this issue. I for one would like to see them stand up and at least work the theory to the point where they can assure us better. If they are wrong , so be it. Im not afriad to die. I do distaste the lack of effort in their replies though, when I know they could do better. Dont they at least want to assure themselves better , and if they lack the understanding to do so , is this action premature? That is what we need to ask ourselves.

Final countdown for collider

Susan Jackson — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 22:18:27 GMT

Nothing in science is wasted especially with Scientist like these.
Gee, if somone had not decided to try the first airplane where would we be?
The are Scientist they don't want to die.
We move forward people not backward.

Final countdown for collider

Cars10,Berlin, — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 23:48:10 GMT

So called scientist, babbling of a big bang have one on their head...
Collidermechanics have been thought in the 80 of last millenium, stupid neoeinsteins without knowhow about cosmic laws, with bipol brains which have a bang...
Mechanik physikans, hammering on me - your light to find truth???? And that from people, who claim to have studied...
I call in all of your creative powers to avert this experiments and their no-sense activations, just like the first experiments of this same collider where cranked by us, we mentally blasted some magnets, so the whole thing was laying low a few years now...
i am going in another direction now and leaving the
continiuum you are in...

Final countdown for collider

Robert, Los Angeles, Ca — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 02:05:49 GMT

Hi everyone,,there are some really good comments here on this subject. Most of the people who have commented seem to have more knowledge of this machine than me, this i cannot deny. It does seem logical that this machine could mess with the magnetic pull of the earth...or fix it?! From what i understand the earth is at a critical time as far as it's magnetic poles go. Every 750,000 yrs. or so the poles have flipped. If that happens in these modern times then we will be in the s__t cause nothing will work, cell phones, electricity, cars, etc...Maybe this machine will fix something like this. Anyone taking bets?? www.betoncern.com

Final countdown for collider

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 02:30:35 GMT

N.A.,
An interesting note. Before the first atomic detonation someone came up with the idea that it may start a chain reaction and burn the entire atmosphere. That possibility, that valid high energy physics concern, was evaluated, worked out and found to be unsubstantiated. The reason it's still looked at the way you look at it is because it had to be evaluated and worked out before they could say it was unsubstantiated.
The same sort of case is going on now. Someone had an idea that a world ending black hole could be created. They evaluated that idea, worked it out and came to the conclusion that the idea is unsubstantiated. They had to work to get to that answer becuase it's not obvious. Becuase it's not obvious, the unsubstantiated fear continues.

Final countdown for collider

Obama Binladen, Amerighanistan — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 07:22:00 GMT

The SUN doesn't have enough mass or energy to form a black hole, yet some of you believe that somehow some little experiment on earth is going to create one? Please people, why don't you go sail your ships off the edge of the flat earth.

Final countdown for collider

Jim N, Boston — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 13:46:21 GMT

One day when Thag was hunting he came across a fire and was afraid, he went near the fire and it didn't attack him. He threw rocks and sticks at it and poked it with sticks. After a while he brought it back to his clan. The elders, who had seen forest fires, said that it was too dangerous and he must be stopped. Thag said he was fires master and there was nothing to fear. In the following years, no doubt many huts burned down and smoke killed many people. Even today fire kills countless people every year. Would we be better off if Thag had listened to the elders, the voice of caution? Of course not.

What if Ben Franklin had not tinkered with lightening? What if Edison, Tesla, Westinghouse, Bell and Marconi were told not to experiment with electricity?

Electricity and fire are very dangerous and kill countless people every year, yet they are part of almost everyone’s daily life.

There is always risk in experiments, there is always risk in life. Someone dies every 15 seconds. The risk in this experiment is as low as is possible, but it is not zero, certainly not for people in the same facility as an array of cryogenic super magnets smashing protons at 15Tev but a few miles away the risk is very very low.

When scientists say unlikely instead of zero risk of a catastrophic world ending disaster, they are telling you the truth. They don't know for sure and never will until after the experiment has completed. They could theorize for another thousand years and the risk still won’t be zero.

History doesn't record what happened to Thag, Maybe carbon monoxide killed his clan that first night, but was he wrong to try? I don't think so. I think that he took the first step into a new world for all mankind.

Scientists won't say that the risk is zero, it can't be zero. Zero is absolute. It if will make you feel better though, I will say that the risk of an earth ending disaster is zero. If I’m wrong I’ll apologize afterward.

I would rather be huddled around a warm fire than standing in the cold rain afraid of what could happen near the fire.

Final countdown for collider

Mermaid of Moorgate, Moorgate, UK — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 14:15:38 GMT

Wotever. What I want to know is, should I buy next Wed's lottery ticket, and am I as unlikely to win as I am to get atomised/strangletified/sucked into a black hole or merely pursued by a neurologically changed Alan Rickman with two heads?

Final countdown for collider

E. Pryor — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 20:13:10 GMT

I hope you guys are right. I still don't think that the cosmic ray collisions argument(or decay of a black hole by Hawking radiation) are sufficient to risk our existence. Two cosmic rays slamming into one another, or slamming into atmospheric atoms is NOT the same thing as slamming together matter and antimatter at over 99%c, thousands of times. I think their cosmic ray argument is purposely misleading. They truly don't know what will happen. These people are risking you, me and future generations for scientific fame. They should AT LEAST be prepared to deal with the possible consequences of the experiment. We cannot evacuate the earth, we probably cannot collapse a black hole, or manipulate a strangelet. All they can say if they are wrong is OOPPS! They might not even tell us if it happens. Of course no one would admit that they wiped out human existence. There is alway risk, but you have to ask- Does the risk outweigh the possible gains. Just what will the "God particle" do for mankind that justifies wiping us out without a trace?

Final countdown for collider

Sarah Benjamin Riyadh, KSA — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 03:12:44 GMT

E. Pryor,

I guess the so-called 'God particle' will do us nothing but send us ALL to Judgment Day!
If it does happen, then good luck to you all... 'n me.

Final countdown for collider

True Beleifer — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 13:00:39 GMT

I had a horrible thought---could our souls escape from the diabolical, gravitational clutches of a black hole or would they forever be denied the opprtunity of going to heaven?

Perhaps the startup of the collider should be delayed until this has been thought out by a team of trained theologians.

Final countdown for collider

dr joebloggs — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 14:15:22 GMT

i am a professor of quantum physics.
No they don't know what they are doing or they wouldn't be doing it.It wouldn't be an experiment if they knew what the results would be.The point is that they ARE doing it doesn't matter what anyone says....Only the results matter.One side of this debate is going to look awful foolish.People are so arrogant.Marie Curie killed herself and a few others but she saved more...this is a BIG experiment and none of us know what will happen.hence EXPERIMENT.

Final countdown for collider

RFD NAZARETH, PA — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 15:45:46 GMT

Who do these people think they are to think they can just take over the world. I oppose of this as it seems that they should have more respect for everything. The planet does not belong to some crazy scientists. Why cant they answer the questions honestly and prove that there will be no harm done from this experiment. I guess this is the warning we get for now. Thanks for nothing.
I think the courts should demand that until they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt, that there will be NO negative results, then it should be stopped until they can prove otherwise. Have we gone Mad? Do we have any human right to life? What right do they have to destroy what does not belong to them? WHAT ABOUT WHAT IF!?
May GOD Be with us.

Final countdown for collider

Rick Wall Birmingham, Alabama — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 05:06:18 GMT

I see the American scientist are a bit concerned about the start up. The majority of these guys are affiliated with the NRC. Personally I’m for modern technology. Looking at the condition our plant is in, every effort should be made to learn things that can help our environment. I’m sure I’m way out of line about what the Hadron Collider can do to help our plant. The things that can be learned seem great, however we must keep in mind, and does the end justify the means. I admire the safety of the NRC in the U.S. and think they have some legitimate complaints. I do wish CERN would consider meeting with the scientist that are concerned about the start up. Anyway I hope the men and women that worked hard to make this thing work get the results they want. At this point there are a lot of unknowns and Europe
or the whole worlds fate could be at stake. You know its also a little weird that there is nothing on TV or in the news papers in the U.S about the start up. I know Im going to pack a lunch that day. Good luck guys

Regards,
Rick Wall

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Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 05:36:39 GMT

RFD,
Q. Why cant they answer the questions honestly and prove that there will be no harm done?
A. They have. Most are probably only 4 semesters from understanding the answer. I realize that won't do a lot of good now.
Q. Who do these people think they are to think they can just take over the world?
A. Pinky. No, Brain! Aaaahhh.

Final countdown for collider

Garret McCholearno — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 04:57:14 GMT

This seems intresting. Scientists have been striving to create the world's most powerfull machine for years, and now have just about acheived it. They just need to fire her up. However, like many of you out there, it may be wiser to wait a little longer so more research can be made. I know it is unlikely, but the risks of having a black hole or a strangelet forming doesn't seem to be worth it. I'm not saying shut the thing down and abandon it, they just need a little more patience. There's people out there who are really freaked out, you know, people who are convinced that a black hole will form. We just need to do a little research and convince them there is nothing to be worried about.

Keep up the good work. This is very intresting. I can't wait until they fire it up!

Final countdown for collider

Carl Johnston — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 13:48:43 GMT

Wow, all this blather from people who don't know a pion from a prion. When I read the story the thing that jumped out at me was this:
"During the test, a bunch of protons was sent into the ring's supercooled magnet system".
Shouldn't that have been:
"... a bunch of protons WERE sent...".

Final countdown for collider

Tyler Yasaka, Florence, Alabama — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 19:20:25 GMT

that's real cool! I honestly don't think anything dramatic will happen.This is what i would say if i were a scientist: I think black holes are simply gates to another dimension, in which three dimensional matter and energy cannot exist. example: =================. two lines. entering a black hole is like a two dimensional line changing planes. maybe our spirits are 4 dimensional and that's where heaven is?

Final countdown for collider

NecroV4L, Michigan, USA — Sun, 07 Sep 2008 03:12:09 GMT

Would'nt it be nice if we actually discovered something! Then it would be like the last x amount of things these things have discovered: completely and udderly useless!!

Final countdown for collider

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Sun, 07 Sep 2008 06:34:14 GMT

Carl Johnston,
There are no preons.
If bunch is like flock, pack, school or herd then was was fine.

Final countdown for collider

Grouchy Old Hippie, Eugene, Oregon — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 21:23:00 GMT

Once again, I see the same dumb argument by scientists in favor of the LHC, and that is that these particle collisions occur in nature everyday. That is far from the truth.

The collisions that occur in nature that the CERN scientists use in defense of their project are based on particles hitting stationary objects at almost the speed of light. Such as x-rays and gamma rays colliding with Earth's atmosphere.

The difference with the collisions that they are attempting at LHC, is two particles will be traveling from opposite directions directly toward each other, with each of them traveling at almost the speed of light. This in effect, is the same as creating a collision of a particle with a stationary object at almost TWICE the speed of light. This DOES NOT occur naturally in the cosmos.

It was once theorized that matter itself was incapable of a velocity faster than the speed of light based on Einstein's equations. Einstein theorized that matter traveling faster than the speed of light would not collide at all, that the two sources of matter would pass right through one another. But Einstein did not have any theories as to what interaction would take place when those two objects of matter passed through one another at above light speed.

Sure, chances are that the Earth, or the universe, will not be gobbled up into a man-made stationary black hole. But they have all stated that it is a possibility however unlikely.

We have reached a 'zero error' point in our sciences, and pursuing the discoveries at CERN that these scientist seek to find is far beyond the 'zero error' scenario, and any errors at this level may be humanity's last.

[ALAN ADDS: The idea of an "at rest" black hole just sitting there is somewhat bogus. If you look at the spray of particles given off by collisions in the accelerator, you can see that the particles are not just sitting there but zipping off at a significant proportion of the speed of light. Also, relativity dictates that two particles moving at relativistic speeds still do not exceed the speed of light relative to each other. Their relative speed would just be a slightly higher fraction of the velocity c. And such scenarios do occur in nature. Cosmic-ray collisions occur at significantly higher energies. Sorry, Grouchy.]

Final countdown for collider

ChandraSekhar Battula ,Andhrapradesh,Kaikalur — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 02:47:22 GMT

Lets hope the Giant Atlas Experiment will be successful and throw some light on many secrets regarding universe evolution.

Final countdown for collider

Melody — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 08:37:05 GMT

So,Let me get this straight..This will prove there is a God.All the world needs to do is read the bible to find out that info.

Final countdown for collider

E. Pryor — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 13:32:05 GMT

I don't think those collisions happen nature. In one of their experiments, they will be colliding Lead. Cosmic rays are electrons, helium and hydrogen, which have much less mass than lead. They will be hitting lead atoms head on at close to the speed of light. I don't think that happens anywhere in nature, not even in a supernova. Some of the black holes formed may move off at a fraction of the speed of light, but I have seen estimates that some of them may move as slow as 4m/s relative to the lab they are created in. Even if they did move off at relativistic speeds, I wouldn't want any black holes forming anywhere near the earth. Comparing cosmic ray collisions to Lead collisions is like comparing apples to oranges. I just hope Hawking radiation exists.

Final countdown for collider

Conrad617 — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 16:47:59 GMT

haha thats funny david ..not we cant cotroll the black hole basikly the world is doomed if the black hole acurs

Final countdown for collider

John Doe, Seattle, Wash. — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 19:50:06 GMT

Just make sure its pointed tward the enemy terratory when you turn it on just in case XD

Final countdown for collider

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 15:08:51 GMT

E. Pryor,
Apples and oranges is probably right. There are vast differences between a single proton and a lead nucleus. The lead nucleus being more massive, at the same speed the lead nucleus will have more energy associated with it. So what's the worst case collision? Is it a single subatomic particle (p+ or n) striking another head on with the rest of the mass behind it or is it a single particle hitting in the seam between three particles? Do you think both whole nucleuses will be caught up in one single mega-reaction? Do you suppose all of the energy will translate to just those two protons leading the way, leaving the rest of the nuclei at rest, thereby upping the energy of the proton collision? Did you mean to imply that the ion collisions are just an amped up collision that's completely similar to proton collisions? If we put lead at the front of those bullet trains, weight them down, construct a track between two mountain tops and run them into each other in the valley is that just a still bigger reaction with nightmare consequences because we get higher energy levels with the heavy fast trains? Of course not, the energy would be dissipated in mechanical deformation. Have you considered the nature of the collision between two clumps of loosely connected particles? Lead nuclei being clumps of protons and neutrons that are bound tighter than a rack of pool balls but far looser than the neutrons or, more to the point, protons themselves. And the reference to the rack of pool balls is very intentional, as was the reference to mechanical deformation. Comparing proton collisions to lead collisions is, indeed, apples and oranges. Both fruit, but one is not a larger version of the other. You can't just scale up the energy by a factor of 200 and treat it like a proton collision.

Final countdown for collider

jon doe, jacksonville,florida — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 22:50:24 GMT

- Given the accelerating force of the experiment and the reaction of which I have worked out the calculations to, it is in my opinion that the experiment could actually have a 50% chance of going either way. If the end result were one of regret, let me state that a black hole would not result but a dynamic of dimension related quantitivity that would cause extreme heat instead of extreme blank and extinguish everything in its path working outward to infinity.

Final countdown for collider

UnderTheBridge, Tempe Arizona — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 23:48:30 GMT

What you peoplw have completely left out is the existence of the Demonic as a factor in the "material" world. Christrian author C.S. Lewis wrote a novel "That Hideous Strength" in which a group of scientists, trespassing into realms where man was never meant to go, unleashed the Demonic upon the earth.

Like the LHC researchers of today these scientists were arrogant - believing nothing in the universe was beyond the reach of Man and his powers and abilities. They were proved tragically wrong.

These researchers seek what they call the "God Particle". Perhaps they will find a Particle exhibiting behavior they interpret as Godlike - truly "God from a machine" (Latin - Deus sx Machina). But this Particle will not be God or from God, no matter how many fall down to worship it and even if it is placed in the Holy of Holies in a rebuilt Temple - as prophecy depicts.

These researchers seek to open a door, but they know not what they are letting into our world.

Fortunately, God's hand is at work in the world, as we see he has raised up Sarah Palin, a God-fearing Bible-believing strong Christian Woman. You can be sure that Sarah Palin has no doubts about the physical reality of the Demonic, and will understand immediately the true dangers of this line of experimentation. Surely we can expect her to move politically to cut off the funding for these ill-conceived and possibly Demonically inspired experiments. Surely we can expect her to move spiritually to call the Nation together in prayer against the Spiritual Powers which stand behind these experiments.

Final countdown for collider

John Yarnold, Cape Town, South Africa. — Fri, 23 Jan 2009 02:53:39 GMT

I personally reckon that nothing at all related to the nature of the universe will occur. Either the 2 proton beams go out of phase and cancel each other, or the protons will re-enforce each other and perhaps create a type of anti-matter. A completely positively charged type of matter in a state of flux...Well, this could react with something like the collider itself, resulting in an implosion beneath the surface of the earth, sinking a piece of Europe 100m beneath the ground..
As far as "strangelets" go.. Please give them a better name if you are going to try to sound like you have even the faintest inkling of a clue about theoretic work.
Another theory I thought of is that the collider might possibly be able to be used as a transmutation device. Perhaps the old science of alchemy was just in the wrong century. Turning lead into gold could possibly be a reality with the collider. They should test it with a small piece of lead and lots of control and proper planning.
Perhaps, if the other point I made about the anti-matter comes true, they may be able to contain it. One more step closer to a possible, theoretical warp drive. Just a thought.

Final countdown for collider

Susan, Grand Prairie, Texas — Mon, 23 Nov 2009 23:00:15 GMT

Ah come on Science marches on. I'm sure every advance in Science there or many that say oh this will destroy the earth. Get over it.
These Scientist don't want to die.