Science's summer blockbuster

steve smyth — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 23:17:55 GMT

I bet any amount that the FermiLab guys have the ace in the hole...waiting to show up the new kids.
Sounds pretty ridiculous to think that something which could be a key to future energy would be played close to the vest for bragging rights...but...what else is new?
Geeks with Power Rule...in their own little worlds...don'tcha think?

Science's summer blockbuster

Robert Marsh II, GA. — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 23:55:59 GMT

The unfolding events concerning the CERN LHC programs, will be 'blockbuster' science headlines well into 2009, to possibly (at least) 2019! We are awaiting further MSNBC updates --- Keep up the excellent work!

http://thefifthknight.blogspot.com/

Remember: Follow the 'White Rabbit'!

Science's summer blockbuster

Matthew 'Floyd' Clough, Stockbridge, GA — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 00:04:34 GMT

It's great to have another LHC update, Alan.

Thanks a bunch!

Science's summer blockbuster

Alan Boyle — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 01:51:13 GMT

By the way, Fermilab scored another advance on the Higgs front a few days ago when the DZero team announced that they had detected a rare phenomenon known as the "ZZ diboson." I should explain that physicists can't see the Higgs boson directly but detect it by observing its decay products. One of the possible decay products includes a pair of Z bosons. That is a very tricky thing to detect, and there are other Standard Model phenomena that can produce Z pairs, but Wood told me that seeing the ZZ is a big step toward having the sensitivity to detect the Higgs. "It’s the last benchmark Standard Model cross section in rarity before going to the Higgs processes," he said.

Here's the Fermilab press release on the subject:

http://www.fnal.gov/pub/presspass/
press_releases/Dzero_zzdiboson.html

Longbeards in the physics community are waiting for news of an even cooler phenomenon: the production of two Z bosons plus a top quark, also known as ... the ZZ Top.

PSYCH!

Science's summer blockbuster

James Tankersley Jr, Middleton WI — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 01:59:39 GMT

Outstanding column as always Alan. Have you considered interviewing Professor Otto Rossler? Dr. Rossler is scheduled to meet Swiss President President Pascal Couchepin this month (Mid August) to discuss his concerns that possible creation of micro black holes by the LHC would destroy Earth in 50 months to 50 years based on Dr. Rossler's calculations.

Dr. Rossler's June 8th interview with 20 Minuten News "Biggest crimes of humanity" is very interesting. (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.20min.ch%2Fnews%2Fwissen%2Fstory%2F24668213&hl=en&ie=UTF8&sl=de&tl=en)

Science's summer blockbuster

ANON. N/A — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 05:14:45 GMT

WELL WELL, NOW WE CAN MAKE MICRO-BOTTOMLESS PITS.

THIS ISN'T A SURPRISE.

NO JOKE ABOUT US NOT BEING THE ONLY ONES WHO HAVE LEARNED HOW TO DO THIS.

I FEEL SORRY FOR ALL THOSE PEOPLE IN THE FUTURE WHO P*** OFF THE ALIENS WITH THIS KIND OF TECH.

JUST IMAGINE SOMEONE FROM THE EARTH P***ING OFF AN ALIEN WITH A HAND HELD NANO-HADRON COLLIDER?

YOU'D NEVER TALK SMACK TO AN ALIEN WITH A POCKET COLLIDER, LOL.

THEN AGAIN, WOULDN'T IT BE SO COOL TO HAVE ONE OF THOSE HADRON COLLIDER'S FIT IN THE PALM OF YOUR HAND?

OH YEAH, THAT'S THE FUTURE GOAL HERE, LOL.

ISN'T IT?

OR ARE WE GONNA GET OUR BUTT'S KICKED BY ALIENS WITH POCKET SIZED HADRON COLLIDERS?

DIDN'T I ASK THIS BEFORE?

-GRYMM-

Science's summer blockbuster

Tony S Brownsburg, Indiana — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 10:54:40 GMT

LHC is awesome. If god is real it might show us how he made the universe. If god had nothing to do with it we will still know.

The problem with the black hole theory is typically those who have no understanding of science are pushing it forward. LHC will not produce anything which nature is not already doing. Obviously cosmic rays are traveling around at the speed of light smashing into things - obviously we are still fine. This happens to particles on a daily/regular basis.

Theists are scared because they need their invisible gods to stay invisible and unjnown

Science's summer blockbuster

Brian M, Essex VT — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 11:56:32 GMT

We act like the world's something we want to save. Wars, pollution, deforestation...screw it... Let it eat the whole thing.

Morne

Science's summer blockbuster

Frank, Atlanta GA — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 14:11:00 GMT

I read with interest that German-to-English article about the interview given by Dr. Rossler.

What caught my attention was his statement that it is possible (and I don't know how probable -- but let's hope it is very low probability) that the CERN experiments could create a mini-black hole that, in the WORST-CASE scenario, grow only after APPROXIMATELY 50 MONTHS an atto-quasar that will spit out jets of radiation enough to destroy life on earth (if I understand the article correctly).

Call me a kook, a crazy, or whatever, but it is rather interesting that CERN's operational debut will be September 2008, and 51 MONTHS after that will be December 21, 2012, the date the Mayan Long Count calendar will end (and supposedly the end of the current age of mankind and the beginning of a new one).

Some people believe that 2012 date is a Doomsday date, and others allege it will mark the start of a great human spiritual awakening. Of course, most scientists and 'level-headed' people would scoff at such ideas and prophecies.

Still, it is a curious coincidence, is it not?

Science's summer blockbuster

Scott Cedar Rapids Iowa — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 15:10:58 GMT

Yes I agree please keep us updated. This is very exciting and interesting science.

Science's summer blockbuster

tma — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 15:11:48 GMT

science if finally getting closer to explaining why their doesn't need to be a God to create energy. thank goodness. maybe we will see more peace in this world without God.

Science's summer blockbuster

SaneScienceOrg — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 16:06:20 GMT

Man's technology has exceeded his grasp. - 'The World is not Enough'
Zealous Nobel Prize hungry Physicists are racing each other and stopping at nothing to try to find the supposed 'Higgs Boson'(aka God) Particle, among others, and are risking nothing less than the annihilation of the Earth and all Life in endless experiments hoping to prove a theory when urgent tangible problems face the planet. The European Organization for Nuclear Research(CERN) new Large Hadron Collider(LHC) is the world's most powerful atom smasher that will soon be firing subatomic particles at each other at nearly the speed of light to create Miniature Big Bangs producing Micro Black Holes, Strangelets and other potentially cataclysmic phenomena.
CERN physicist Alvaro De Rújula in the BBC LHC documentary, 'The Six Billion Dollar Experiment', incredibly admits quote, "Will we find the Higgs particle at the LHC? That, of course, is the question. And the answer is, science is what we do when we don't know what we're doing." And CERN spokesmodel Brian Cox follows with this stunning quote, "the LHC is certainly, by far, the biggest jump into the unknown."
The CERN-LHC website Mainpage itself states quote: "There are many theories as to what will result from these collisions,..." Again, this is because they truly don't know what's going to happen. They are experimenting with forces they don't understand to obtain results they can't comprehend. If you think like most people do that 'They must know what they're doing' you could not be more wrong. Some people think the same thing about medical Dr.s but consider this by way of comparison and example from JAMA: "A recent Institute of Medicine report quoted rates estimating that medical errors kill between 44,000 and 98,000 people a year in US hospitals." The second part of the quote reads "...but what's for sure is that a brave new world of physics will emerge from the new accelerator,..." A molecularly changed or Black Hole consumed Lifeless World? The end of the quote reads "...as knowledge in particle physics goes on to describe the workings of the Universe." These experiments to date have so far produced infinitely more questions than answers but there isn't a particle physicist alive who wouldn't gladly trade his life to glimpse the "God particle", and sacrifice the rest of us with him.
This quote from National Geographic exactly sums this "science" up: "That's the essence of experimental particle physics: You smash stuff together and see what other stuff comes out."
Find out more about that "stuff" below;
http://www.SaneScience.org/
http://www.LHCFacts.org
http://www.risk-evaluation-forum.org/anon1.htm
http://www.lhcdefense.org/
http://www.lhcconcerns.com
Popular Mechanics - "World's Biggest Science Project Aims to Unlock 'God Particle'" - http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/extreme_machines/4216588.html"

[ALAN ADDS: This message is sent, mostly as a cut-and-paste job, every time there's a posting on the LHC. I'm letting it go through this time because there's a bit of variation in this version.]

Science's summer blockbuster

steve smyth — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 16:13:55 GMT

Alan...how about a little deeper take on the killer black hole scenario...maybe it'll be like the proverbial Hole to China...I musta started digging the friggin' thing fifty times as a kid...never even got to see any molten anything, never mind stand face to face with a Chinaman*.
I say...let her rip, eh?
*not politically incorrect, insensitive, nor racist...that's what they were called...authenticity demands continuity...don'tcha think?

Science's summer blockbuster

Nolan, SLC, UT — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 16:19:06 GMT

Metallica's Death Magnetic Album will also be released in September ... coincidence? I think not.

Science's summer blockbuster

jesuguru — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 17:49:21 GMT

Hilarious, reading naive comments about the LHC being the death of God, and that theists are "running scared". Not this one. Rightly exploring the wondrous "what" and "how" of the universe never answers the transcendent "Why", and any scientist worth her salt would agree.

Science's summer blockbuster

James Basil Dickinson — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 17:59:51 GMT

I Had no idea that these nerds were up to. Trying to find God! I can tell them how, but they do not want to find the God that I serve, they do not want to serve the God that I found. They want to find Him, their own way as an equal, and not as a creation of God. I want them to know that they will find Him, and when they do, they will all be cinders. Their father the Devil, wanted to do the same thing, and did he gain anything? no he lost all that was good and has gained all that was bad. God said in the book of reverlation that mens hearts would fail them because of the things that were comming upon the earth. What if they discover that they have created a black hole and it is out of their control and the chain reaction causes the complete destruction of the planet, and they know exactly what is going on? Would that not cause the exact thing that is prophecied in the Holy Bible? The best insurence is an assurence of saving grace in your life. No mater, weather we live it is unto God or weather we die we are God's. What a wonderful place to be, come quickly Lord Jesus!

Science's summer blockbuster

Andy, ATL, GA — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 18:13:46 GMT

The end of the world stuff was also predicted when man first split the atom. That a chain reaction would start that would create a miniture sun that would kill all life on Earth and destroy the solar system.

Science's summer blockbuster

stem, huntington, wv — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 18:25:59 GMT

hey! i'm a theist and i totally welcome the LHC. i can't wait for them to start up the proton destruction derby.

it seems to me that if there is a God (and i believe that there is) then the LHC will only reveal a little more of His majesty.

Science's summer blockbuster

Brent Bennett, Memphis, TN — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 18:57:46 GMT

This is why you dont pick on the nerdy kids. Yesterday he was a quiet bookworm tomorrow he is doing particle physics that can alter the very reality in which you and everything you know exists. Beware the revenge of the nerds.

Science's summer blockbuster

Gphillip, Houston, TX — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 19:05:44 GMT

Just remember, cosmic rays with hundreds and even thousands of times the energy of the LHC protons have struck white dwarf stars millions of times over for billions of years, and they haven't poped out of existance yet. Compared to Nature's giant quasar particle accelerators, this LHC is like a tiny candle flame. The only reason it is so valuable is that the energy can be directed very accurately for measurements, as opposed to the much higher energy cosmic rays that impinge on the earth (and Sun and all the other planents) every day from all random directions.

Science's summer blockbuster

Michael D, Ca — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 19:40:18 GMT

Alan's comments sound like the same Marxist Cummunist dribblings "that if we allow oil to be drilled in America, we will be distroying the planet" or to paraphrase Nancy Pelosi " I'm not allowing a vote to be held for drilling oil here in America, because I'm trying to save the entire Earth!!!" Give me a break. The left in America seem to want to tell us " Let the most stupidist among us lead us". You can believe them if you want, but if you do, I think that fact tells us something about you.

Science's summer blockbuster

Dave Hoffman — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 19:58:39 GMT

When I had a chemistry set as a kid, I mixed all kinds of things together to see what would happen. Worst case scenario, I make something that smells to high heaven.

That's pretty much what these guys are doing, except the worst case scenario is the destruction of the planet. That's a pretty big risk, even if miniscule, so I wonder if the potential gains are worth the potential risk.

Can a black hole be created from these experiments? In theory, yes. It that possibility virtually nonexistent? In theory, yes, but the fact is that they don't know, they're just guessing. Nobody knows exactly what is going to happen, and that's a little disconcerting.

Oh well, crank that baby up! See ya in the afterlife.... if things don't go according to theory.

Science's summer blockbuster

Sean, Gilbert, AZ — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 20:11:04 GMT

I am going to follow this more closely than I have previously; I am suprised that reservations haven't been expressed over the exploration into the possibility of 'supersymmetric particles' as mentioned above. Being a meta-geek I have found some of the most disturbing fiction I have read dealt with inter-planar meddling (Moorcock's novel "Blood", King's "The Mist", most of Grandpa Lovecraft's works.)
I always wanted a pet black hole, but I would like to pass on semi-solid BEMs from Beyond the Veil...
Then again, they might be tasty! We will just have to wait and see.

Science's summer blockbuster

Ryan, Rochester, NY — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 22:18:10 GMT

I am extremely interested to see what kind of discoveries the LHC will produce. Hopefully another tick in the "evolutionists" column. The sooner the veil of religion is lifted, the better. Then we can start funding the science community like they deserve.

Science's summer blockbuster

Ryan, Rochester — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 22:19:13 GMT

And Alan, I thoroughly enjoyed the ZZ Top joke.

Science's summer blockbuster

Upright Monkey — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 22:28:53 GMT

Shame on folks like Megellan and Copernicus. How dare they explore and forge ahead without knowing the consequences? How dare they try to expand our knowledge or experiences in life? We should strive to be cave dwelling upright monkeys. Apparently we are all safe and happy if we are all stupid.

Science's summer blockbuster

Justin, Spfd, MO — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 22:58:40 GMT

LOL, best comment so far.

Science's summer blockbuster

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 23:04:23 GMT

I just took a look at SaneScience.org. Not the first thing I noticed was, at the top of their page, "Imagination is more important than knowledg" (sic). So, since I didn't know that an e was at the end, I tried to imagine it. Maybe they did that on purpose, to get me imagining. It didn't work so well. Back on the Usedtafish Finch always tried to get me to admit "I don't know." The closest I could come up with was "I'll find out" and then take my lumps. I think the lumps were supposed to be incentive to admit the lack of knowledge. I guess I don't have much of an imagination, so knowledge is pretty important to me. They seam to imagine quite a bit, and after checking out their site I'd say that they don't have that much knowledge. Go with your strengths (perceived) I guess. I didn't read the whole site, I so rarely read an entire site, so there may have been some contributors who knew something, but what I read was just imagined woes. I was struck by people who didn't understand the science, which isn't at all surprising - it's complex, decided it was unsafe because they couldn't understand it to be safe, studied enough to learn some of the jargon and then sat at their computers to start typing. I imagine that the people who frequent the site also don't understand and so they get pretty impressed that these guys can throw around the jargon. I suck at foreign languages, but I can learn enough to throw around strings of words. That doesn't make them sentences because I don't know how to use the words. I'm sure you can put those thoughts together.
Even in the part they copied over to here you can see that their rhetoric would only allow us to engage in experiments for which we already knew the outcome. That would be only experiments we've already done. That's great for sixth graders. I imagine that means SaneScience.org is published by sixth graders. I could be wrong, I already said my imagination isn't so good.

Science's summer blockbuster

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Wed, 06 Aug 2008 13:55:09 GMT

James Basil Dickinson,
No, that would not be what is prophesied. If you're interested in seeing what is prophesied actually read Revelation.

Stem,
I so agree with you. The problems seem to come when the revelation of God's glory doesn't agree with the preconcieved notions preached by leaders and held by leity.

Science's summer blockbuster

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Wed, 06 Aug 2008 14:10:26 GMT

To the fearful,
So here's a thought. In several of these there are comments about the possible MBHs created by interactions with the planets being of no consequence because when they're created they're moving so fast that they pass harmlessly on but those produced at LHC will be essentially motionless relative. I was thinking that stars don't just radiate. There have got to be all kinds of head on collisions in every stars interior at all manner of energy levels that produce every godknowswhat particle or wave. Maybe that's the mechanism that actually creates the mega-BHs that we think are out there. A particle reaction inside the star produces a MBH at low relative speed that eats the star from the inside out. Whatever. The collisions that will take place at LHC must take place naturally in every star. In our star how many take place every second? The sun has not yet collapsed on itself due to the outcome of these reactions. While it can never be proven completely safe I'd guess that billions and billions and billions and billions... Darn, I mean billions OF billions of billions of billions of reactions without the loss of our star indicate that it's pretty harmless. If you're really afraid of the outcome of these experiments you must be terrifed of eating. After all, people choke -- to death -- when they eat. I say you exercise that fear and stop eating. In a couple of months the rest of us won't have to read your drivel.

Science's summer blockbuster

Jason, Middletown, New York — Wed, 06 Aug 2008 18:19:12 GMT

Why do folks get so up in arms about hypothetical doomsday scenarios resulting from the exploratory sciences? Don't they remember the basics of the scientific process? Create a theory, test theory with experimentation, analysis result to confirm or deny theory's validity.

In this case the theory is that the Higgs exists as predicted in the Standard Model and it should be identifiable in such-and-such range of GeVs. By any definition of the word "theory", the physicists cannot "know" for certain what exactly will happen in the experimental phase, because until the experiment is conducted, the theory remains solely an idea, something predicted by the paradigm. If they knew exactly what would occur, then the theory wouldn't be a theory, it would be knowledge. But as man has not previously reached the GeVs expected to be produced in the LHC before, what happens there is still theory, and to some extent, unpredictable.

And yes, the Standard model allows for some funky creations in the upcoming GeV ranges to be seen in the LHC. Some of which *may* even have the potential to be a doomsday harbinger. You have a better chance of winning the lottery every day for a week, but the possibility does exist. It still doesn't mean we should fold up shop and bury our heads in the sand.

Here's another theory. A US President will not initiate a nuclear exchange, which even in our post-Cold War world represents a much greater threat to human survival than anything the LHC may generate. To test this theory we elected into office a man with a C grade in college who cannot even properly say the word "nuclear". Not once but twice! And we're still here.

Science's summer blockbuster

Eva Decker, canada — Wed, 06 Aug 2008 18:49:08 GMT

LHC, ZZ top, Wow, chinese to me! and that's not racist either. If this can prove the non-existance of God, then it will be worth it. A black hole could purge the earth of those God believers that are killing each other in God's, and there are many,names.
Humans are always so scared of the scientific unknown but will destroy everything for a stupid belief, Wow again. Bring on our future whatever it may be!!

Science's summer blockbuster

babs Austin TX — Wed, 06 Aug 2008 21:46:34 GMT

Thank you Brian, VT. I totally agree.

Science's summer blockbuster

John Rosengarten — Wed, 06 Aug 2008 22:56:54 GMT

I can see no sequence of events that could produce a black hole without requiring about eleven solar masses of raw material.

Nothing on Earth, or more accurately, everything on Earth would never even come close to making a black hole.

Oh, and I am in the same county as that Tervatron at Fermilab, if anything happens there I guess I will be the among the first to see "god".

Science's summer blockbuster

Jamo, Area 52, NV — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 07:40:12 GMT

LOL the CERN guys are the old boys and the new boys... Americans are working with CERN also nim rod. We are soon to find that the theories of today will be shattered and we will go back to square 1(love the pun). May spark more revolution then actually finding the hig in the hay stack...

Science's summer blockbuster

Jamo, Area 52, NV — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 07:44:39 GMT

That is a good one Alan! Its true though we can't see the higs, but only the aftermath, which we won't see either cause the theories of today are wrong, that is why we have no unified theory and don't even understand gravy or have eq's that are completely right, but we always love to blame stuff on weasel physics, like quantum. There is a unfied theory for eveything however its call 1=1. :(

Science's summer blockbuster

RICHARD BRADBURY, ST.PETERSBURG,FLORIDA. — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 09:00:30 GMT

AND THIS HELPS THE PLANET HOW?? WHAT WILL BE ABLE TO BE DONE WITH THIS THING WHEN IT'S FINISHED? WHATS THE GOAL?FINAL POINT? IN COMMON TERMS PLEASE...

Science's summer blockbuster

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 13:25:04 GMT

John,
The 11 solar mass thing is only for a "traditional" black hole. The kind of black hole talked about here would be from a very small amount of mass shifting to a different quantum state that takes up so little volume that the gravity density increases to the point light can't escape. This kind of black hole would have drastically different characteristics around the Schwarschild radius because it is so near the center. So where we talk about a spaceship being torn apart by the different gravity at the leading and trailing edges well after it crosses the horizon and well before reaching the core, in a MHB there wouldn't be any significant gravitational effect on even an electron until the electron was very near the horizon and core, well less than a Planck length. The gravitational disparity would only exist on the side closest to the anomily. Instead of King Kong grabbing a person top and bottom and ripping them in two it's a flea biting your ankle. Completely different animal. The only similarity between King Kong and a flea is that they're both black. The similarities between a traditional black hole and a MBH are on the same scale. You're saying the only way to make King Kong is with a huge pile of bananas in a discussion about fleas. The physics here is way wierder. What AUs are to me jogging a Planck length is to MBHs. These are not black holes that could swallow planets, these are black holes that can't swallow electrons. If they can eat at all they would have to extract a part of a particle. Doing so would elevate the particle parts to a higher energy level, which would require taking energy out of a black hole, which theoretically can't happen. The alternatives, of which I see two, are these:
1. E=mc^2 type reaction where a fundemental particle is lost. This particle would have to be the part that imparts mass, so we wouldn't see any physical thing left.
2. The particle is destroyed across time. Unlike the ship going into a traditional black hole where destruction would take place when both ends of the ship were still experiencing time at almost exactly the same rate, the gravity concentration differences in a MBH scale would allow for normal time on one side of an electron and time all but stopped on the anomaly side. I can't even imagine what that means or how that plays out but figure that momentum might factor in. There might be conservation when you consider the time difference. I haven't even tried to work that out.
This really trailed off toward some other discussions, but at this point those threads are dead.

Science's summer blockbuster

Ctech — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 04:16:41 GMT

HAHA
I can't believe that people actually believe that micro black holes is created by cosmic rays...and evaporate by Hawking radiation. Anyone with half-a-brain would know this is not real. Its all theory!

All the accepting nutjobs have been duped into thinking this is all taking place and we have nothing to worry about. CERN has done a fantastic PR job! Well done.

Science's summer blockbuster

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Sat, 23 Aug 2008 18:46:43 GMT

Ctech,
If it is taking place then we have nothing to worry about.
If it is not taking place where the energy levels do exist then it will not take place at LHC and we have nothing to worry about.
Anyone with half-a-brain could make a point that means something.

Science's summer blockbuster

gerald deloach , Alligator, Miss. — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 04:43:58 GMT

some of the people here are so bitter about the existence of people who believe in a god, and want to associate the concern over the creation of
mini black holes with those theistic religiious types.

You are not being very rational geeks for calling up such a red herring.

The truth is, that there are reasonable doubts about the risks...
I know, I know, they thought that the atmosphere would spontaeneously when the first nuclear device was detonated.

That didn't happen, but logically, that has no bearing on the
current question. It was a different scene, on at least one level
it was a way low power compared with the CERN experiment.

The other argument that suggests that this is something that
occurs on a regular basis in the universe is equally flawed.
The Cosmic particle slamming into a bit of matter at rest, or on
a slightly different vector is hughly removed from what is planned
at the CERN thang. There They are orchestrating an event in which
the particles are focused and equal inn momentum, the ultimate goal
being a perfectly alligned head on collision.

Where as the cosmic particle striking a relatively stationary particle, will carry forward with enough velocity to pass on through the
mass. A perfectly alligned collision could produce a mini-black hole
that has no exceleration but a gradually building momentum toward the nearest large mass, which would be the center of the earth.
As it would pass through miles of dense matter, maybe attracting and pulling in a particle or two, it's momentum would cause it to
acheive an orbit around the earths core, depending upon its vector.
Eventually the mbh whould begin to exponentially gain mass.
THe end of all life would follow shortly.
Or you can be smug. and assume an air of "false knowing:, retiring
your responsibility as a reasonable human who should be screaming:
"Stop you idiots!!! "Nobody has proven Hawkins' Radiation." "This
experiment could destroy your life." "Who will stand up and admit
that this is totally safe without feeling like a liar??? "

It has nothing to do with the existence of some God, but about
the continuing existance of Man. We are charging ahead like dumb
bulls.

Science's summer blockbuster

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 18:31:19 GMT

Gerald,
Beautiful sentiment about religion and geek. I think often we are ruled by belief rather that reason. It explains compulsive gamblers, too.
The cosmic ray + stationary particle = fast moving MBH point has been raised often, and it’s a good point. Mostly, it’s a good point because the MBH wouldn’t have time to eat and grow into a danger, it just gets whisked away along with the solar wind, eventually into the interstellar medium to who knows where. That “time to eat” being key. A little bitty black hole has a little bitty gravity, and a little bitty profile. A MBH at relative rest would not be a matter sucker. If we assume a MBH at LHC in June of ’09, how long would it take, in a nutrient rich place like earth, to achieve the mass 1 g? what is the likelihood, in a matter dense place like the earth, that it would take up a harmless orbit around an atomic nucleus, never to eat again? Assuming a short time to 1 g and low likelihood of nuclear orbit: What are the odds of high energy cosmic rays colliding head on in the gravity well of any given star or planet? (With the assumptions above these would have eaten the star or planet.) What are the odds of such a collision, near any given body – this one in particular, having not ever happened from the dawn of time until 1,000 years ago? (I am assuming that 1,000 years is sufficient time to eat the whole planet or star.) Overall this leads to some frequency for LHC similar collisions within the earth’s capture radius from the formation of the earth until sufficiently long ago that any single of these events would have led to the current annihilation of the earth. That frequency over that length of time and we have a number of earth ending events, if it actually has the capacity to be earth ending. If a MBH doesn’t have that capacity, then this discussion is uber-silly. To be generous, let’s say that if that number of hits is less than 100 it’s statistically insignificant so presenting no useable data, and 100,000 or more and we can feel safe about a MBH not presenting a threat. From 100 to 99,999 can be shades of grey. Obviously, the number of such hits would go up with a greater Cosmic Ray density and vice versa, and I don’t even know what it is now, much less what it has been. The earth being 4,500,000,000 years old, one such collision every 45,000 years and I feel perfectly safe. One such collision every 100,000 years and I still feel pretty safe, as that would mean that 4,500 MBHs haven’t eaten earth yet, with their combined force, over billions of years (for the oldest).

Science's summer blockbuster

gerald deloach — Fri, 12 Sep 2008 02:56:40 GMT

If you are so sure of statitica, Then tell me the odds in the universe
of particles colliding exactly head on, where the force from both directions are equal..
Also, consider what is at risk weighed against what is unknown.
There is admission that there is a possibility that a mbh could be
produced. There is a lot of speculation, based upon the cosmic
ray collisions, but this is not the same thing. The alice project
has the potential of creating a MBH at rest. This is an entirely different scenario than a MBH with momentum.
There is too much at stake with this device to allow it to go forward.
While it is true that it could be harmless, it is also true that it
could destroy the local universe. It could introduce a state
that is irreversible. Hawkins theory that the mbh would
dissolve has not proof.
So, its the end of all life as we know it vs. an experiment that
proceeds disregarding the possible consequences.

Science's summer blockbuster

gerald deloach alligator A-lig-ah- taouw. — Fri, 12 Sep 2008 03:05:39 GMT

There are other considerations, that may lack the math to back them up
but consider the spin principle, the pin prick principle, that the collider
by producing an off center collision at high energy ,near light speed, could break the stability of the local universe, and creat an expanding
collapse.
we have no reliable unity theory. It could be quite fragile.
Is it worth the risk?

Science's summer blockbuster

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Sun, 14 Sep 2008 08:53:26 GMT

Gerald,
Let me reiterate that I can neither find nor generate that statistics. I don't even balance my checkbook. The nearest starting point I can find is the number of high energy collisions with earth. So we get a number going through a volume in a time, evenly distributed, yada yada. But I can't turn that into a statistic. It doubtlessly happens though. Infrequent as it may be, as I'm sure it is, it only has to occur within the gravity well of a body, given the resultants residual speed. So it doesn't have to be produced at rest, just within a capture scenario. Decay time becomes key, if they're stable then no worries, they've been raining down on everything for basically ever. If they have very fast decay then no worries because they can't possibly eat enough to survive. The longer lived they are and the faster they travel, up to escape velocity, the farther out the collision can occur and still be in capture. If only 1 was produced naturally and captured by the earth in it's first 4 billion years then I say we're safe from LHC for at least the next half billion years. There's also the sun and other planets to consider, cummulatively, and all the other stars we see, up to the point in time in their lives that we're now seeing them. That makes billions and billions of reasons incorporating a huge volume of space to believe the LHC is safe.
Your other scenarios, while interesting, fall away even faster as the head on collision would be far less likely than the off center collision.
What's alligator?