The benefits of black holes

Matthew 'Floyd' Clough — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 23:21:42 GMT

Wow - brilliant Q&A!

Really love Mangano's closing...

Thanks a ton Alan!

The benefits of black holes

Bryant, Springfield MO — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 00:03:18 GMT

put it in warp drive captain

The benefits of black holes

Jack Danils — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 00:50:30 GMT

Wait for the movie that's coming out and then the failure management team can just check the ending!

The benefits of black holes

Bob, San Diego, CA — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 01:01:44 GMT

Great Q&A. Look forward to seeing (or not) what comes out.

The benefits of black holes

Gary Long Island New York — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 01:06:19 GMT

I wish I was younger,I'm going miss whats going to happen in the next 35 to 40 years. This was very intresting reading . Look foward to more of the same.

The benefits of black holes

Harry, Rockwall, Texas — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 01:09:28 GMT

Outstanding! As an engineer I believe God exists at the edge of all we don't know. Hopefully, LHC brings us closer...

The benefits of black holes

James Tankersley Jr, Middleton WI — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 01:10:09 GMT

I believe that Michelangelo Mangano did a very credible job leading the LHC Safety Assessment group. I thank him for his outstanding contribution.

However, I also strongly support those who require that the <a href="http://www.lhcdefense.com">safety findings be confirmed</a> empirically (proven by observation) before micro black holes might be created on Earth with velocities to slow to escape Earth.

The GLAST space telescope was launched last month. The Large Hadron Collider should not risk creating micro black holes at least until Hawking Radiation can be verified by GLAST (prove that micro black holes evaporate). Otherwise we will not have learned a lessen from the space shuttle Challenger.

We know that Hawking Radiation is disputed and that charged micro black holes <a href="http://www.lhcfacts.org">might grow very quickly</a> on Earth.

Empirical evidence from dense objects in space is not confirmed. For one, we do not know with any certainty if micro black holes are powerful enough to "eat" super dense Neutron star "food".

Let us not ignore what CERN's SPC Committee <a href="http://indico.cern.ch/getFile.py/access?contribId=20&resId=0&materialId=0&confId=35065">wrote in their validation</a> of the 2008 LSAG Safety Report:

"<i>A powerful argument applicable also to higher energies is formulated making reference to observed neutron stars, but this argument relies on properties of cosmic rays and neutrinos that, while highly plausible, do require confirmation, as can be expected in the coming years.</i>" - SPC Committee

We all understand that waiting possibly years for safety confirmation is extremely inconvenient, but also absolutely reasonable, prudent and <b>required</b> in my opinion.

The benefits of black holes

Stephen Jackson, Dallas, Texas — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 01:19:41 GMT

It is an exciting time, even for us "educated lay persons"! Indeed, for those who allow their minds to wander in such circles, the demonstration of extra spacial dimencsions will take many things out of science fiction, and place them into our reality. I do not expect the infamous "anti-gravity" propulsion system next year, but to ever get there, we go here first. I am elated by the events about to take place. The leading edge of science always overlaps with philosphy, and I am intrigued by both .... and look forward to the events about to take place at CERN!

Stephen

The benefits of black holes

Dagomar Degroot, Toronto, ON — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 01:24:04 GMT

This was illuminating. Brilliant article.

The benefits of black holes

Harry Lenakakis ,Evanston, ILL — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 01:39:52 GMT

This is the first time in my life have feelings the experiment will change To a new form of how we had perceive the world around us!
You’re a brilliant Mr. Mangano!

The benefits of black holes

Kevin DeShazer, Roanoke, VA — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 02:01:49 GMT

Great interview. How about more? Topic suggestions:
Supersymmetric dark-matter particles, quark-gluon plasma, the elusive Higgs boson (a.k.a. the "God Particle" as mentioned in this article.
Thanks

The benefits of black holes

James House — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 02:21:21 GMT

There was at one time a great deal of concern that a train traveling at more than ten miles per hour would suck the breath out of any person or animal in the vicinity. I guess no one considered the velocity of weather generated wind. Will we look back on this and laugh also?

The benefits of black holes

Robert I. Marsh II, Butler, GA. — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 02:37:33 GMT

With half of the 'Standard Model' missing, shrouded within a mathematical haze of pure speculation, and the LHC being built upon these antiquated precepts, there is absolutely no way of telling what awaits CERN! It will take these experiments to extricate the physics community, from their stagnated, depressing, and quagmired current positions! At least one sector of the 'Standard Model' shall receive a tsunami of change, that will send the mathematicians and physicists scrambling wildly to install these new, much needed corrections! There is no doubt, that the future world desperate energy needs lie in LHC technologies; however, the production course should be traveled with extreme caution! The LSAG 'safety report' covers only lower energy 2008 'start-up' operation projections, and speaks nothing of the pre-planned decade of precision energy upgrades to come, set to begin in 2009! This report covers only previous public dockets of concern, and nothing toward the 'new' emerging risk assessment meetings, that are going on - 'Behind Closed Doors'! CERN is grappling with multiple variance-calculation paradoxes, and even as Michelangelo Mangano (and others) penned the now famous 'quiet the public' 'Safe Status' safety report! Two such situations are known: #1). CERN uncertainty RE: Quantum Time-Dilation Contraction-Calibration Equations, used for particle beam timing/focus, that optimize the beams 'impact moment' for collisions per second, which then are detector analyzed. This line of equations must be precise, or facility damage may occur! #2). RE: ALICE heavy (Pb) ion collisions, scheduled to begin (once financed) in 2009. This project generates hyper-density plasmatic fields, that could affect a gravitational curvature, thus possibly producing a compression singularity vortex, and then an event-horizon expansion. This is known as the: Einstein-Rosen Bridge wormhole: QUANTUM WORMHOLE!

The benefits of black holes

Scott Denbina, Fort Worth Texas — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 03:10:41 GMT

>>You know, 5 billion years from now, the sun is going to blow up. There is nothing we can do about that.<<

Whew! For a moment there, I thought you said five MILLION years!

The benefits of black holes

Austin Bergeron, Kansas City, KS — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 03:25:34 GMT

That was quite a fantastic Q&A as Matt put it. With any luck the scientific field will discover some of the things that he has mentioned above and change our perspective on the universe. It would be easier, maybe, to find the Unified Field Theory, (the Theory of Everything); the theory that Einstein spent so much devoted time searching for.

The benefits of black holes

Walter, San Diego, CA — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 03:36:09 GMT

LOL

Humans, even in early ape form, have only been on the Earth for about 1 million years, and we're talking about doing something to last longer than 5 BILLION years.

Was the last paragraph a little wink wink comedy?

I'd expect that over the course of a billion years, not 5 billion, we'd evolve (if we live past the current global warming crisis) to some ethereal pure energy form theorized by many people.

The benefits of black holes

Dan Asti, NYC, NY — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 03:36:14 GMT

Boy, it's sure nice when we get to hear one of 999 out of 1000 scientists who aren't subscribing to a doomsday scenario.

It seems like the 1 scientist who screams "doomsday!" the loudest gets the most media attention. The general public needs to hear these people speak more about their work!

Great read!

The benefits of black holes

RJB, Cleveland, Ohio — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 03:37:17 GMT

Yes, with luck in five billion years Einstein, Hawking and Witten will be perceived as, well, quaint, much as we now look at Pythagoras and Aristotle and Euclid.

Hopefully in five billion years, the breakfast conversation (assuming we still sleep) among the beings we have evolved into will be something like this:

"Sol went nova yesterday."

"Oh, so the calculations were accurate. Earth is no more."

"Yes, could you pass the newcoffee please."

The benefits of black holes

Gary — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 03:47:24 GMT

We cant figure out for sure what happend 5 billion years ago let alone what MIGHT happen 5 billion from now!
If they keep playing with more and more powerful devices, more and more powerful accidents will happen. Or more powerful weapons... And that being said, Id say theres a better chance of us destroying ourselves than there is the sun blowing up and killing us all.

The benefits of black holes

ajay — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 04:01:23 GMT

Please refer to space travel in the hindu culture. Vedas (hindu scriptures) already describe the extra dimensions and theory of space travel.
It is very difficult to understand but it assumes this is only possible through a unique kind of meditation which allows the soul to enter another dimension and travel in space. the texts also describe some experiences people had when they tried this. It would be interesting if the above research can be combined with these old texts

The benefits of black holes

whiterabbit — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 04:06:17 GMT

while I doubt they will be shattering any planets, What does his assurances matter? If they rip the earth apart, it isn't like we're going to hold a trial. What is he going to say? "my bad"

The benefits of black holes

Walter L. Wagner — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 04:49:45 GMT

Alan:

Thanks for presenting the interview. Mangano is correct, if microblackholes [MBHs] decay, they will have a very distinctive signature.

However, his LSAG Report has been preliminarily reviewed and found invalid in a number of key respects.

He claims that cosmic rays would strike neutron stars [NS] with energies comparable to LHC energies. That is questionable. The high magnetic fields would likely cause them to lose tremendous amounts of energy before impact. Indeed, the report seems to acknowledge this fault, but then sidesteps it. The same would be true for White Dwarves [WD].

Further, there is no proof that they would stop in a WD, which is no where near as dense as a NS. WDs are relatively transparent to relativistic neutrinos [by which emissions they cool in their early history], and likely would be even more so to relativistic microblackholes [MBHs], which interact with only the much much weaker gravitational force, rather than the 'weak' force of the relativistic neutrino.

If relativistic MBHs can't be trapped, then the argument also completely fails.

Moreover, the LHC might also be producing deconfined quarks. It is, after all, primarily designed to deconfine quarks by collisions of Lead nuclei. This might be the greater risk for strangelet production, though since Managano only spoke of MBHs in this article, I won't go into those arguments here.

Suffice it to say I agree that the LHC might produce MBHs, and that if they decay, they would have a distinctive signature. However, they might alternatively not decay, or even worse, spontaneously grow larger by a process known as "reverse Hawking radiation" in which nearby matter could conceivably quantum tunnel into the MBH. This was not discussed at all in the LSAG Report.

Best regards,

Walter L. Wagner

The benefits of black holes

Matt, Austin, TX — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 04:54:03 GMT

dark matter,dark energy,wormholes,extra dimensions;so much we still have to learn, IF we don't destroy this planet 1st!

The benefits of black holes

Bob Estes, Somervile, MA — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 05:30:18 GMT

I thought people reading this article and the comments on it might be interested in a summary analysis I made of the comments to a somewhat earlier article in cosmiclog, which dealt with the CERN safety report mentioned in the curent article. The analysis can be found in my blog at <http://onscreen-scientist.com/?p=26>. My weariness from the task itself may have colored my view of the comments.

The benefits of black holes

M. Larson — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 05:38:33 GMT

Feynman talked about the "rules" of quantum mechanics being similar to chess: The pieces are "particles" and each piece has a certain rule set for movement on the chess board plane...

I am speculating that what all these quantum physicists are looking for are the Knights of Quantum Mechanics: or, more plainly stated, the particle that can "move" interdimensionally over other pieces.(or metadimensionally? Creates a dimension (how, I don't know - a very small localized gravitational field right in xyz plane? Ions do move through channels in neurons. Potassium Ions can't go through Sodium Channels) on the fly, moves through it and lands somewhere in xyz space? There is talk of mini black holes. Maybe that's the transport mechanism these Knights use to change the state of matter/energy)

So, yeah the rule of a Knight, right? (Poetry in motion...)
Up OR Down 2, Left or Right 1 Square
OR
Left Or Right 1 Square, Up or Down 2 squares.

Using a "lattice" description, how many possible paths does a knight have available on any spot over the chessboard?

Answer: 8 [4 from moving up or down first, 4 from moving left or right first] (notice it's similar in shape to a circle, if you were to draw a curved line through all the points..)

With chess, there is some sort of anticipatory element that MAY or may not exist in nature. With chess, the idea is that Knights are very powerful pieces that can "fork" other more "powerful" pieces (Refer to the rating system: Knights: 3, Rooks: 5, Queens: 8. [Interesting numbers pop up from the fibonacci sequence in the rating system]) But in order to generate the condition of the fork, one must think forward, therefore, have a perception of sequencing events to unfold over a period of time. Also, there are the permutations of possiblity involved. Lots of IF THEN possibility/probability structures.

Now - with regards to the mystery of quantum physics, the question is:
1. How many "knights" are there that can operate inter and/or metadimensionally? (If an additional "dimension" is even used - maybe it's similar to the stuff to the flattening of dimensions, moving in that dimension, then reappearing in another dimension to change position altogether.)

2. What are the core rules for these knights? How do they communicate/interact with other particles to generate/transform matter and energy, hmmmm?

The idea being Knights can "jump" over a wall of pawns or any pattern/configuration of pieces and "take over" any square by vanquishing who ever is in that square. BUT it cannot move to a square where an "ally" is located. It can move next to one, in front of one, but no two pieces can occupy the same square.

My guess, again, is that these guys are thinking "Dark Matter" Or Bosons or whatever mysterious particle they think they are looking for are the "Knights of Quantum Physics" that operate and bind particles together to generate the various forms of matter and energy?

So maybe: Pawns, Rooks, Bishops, Queens and Kings are the "visible" pieces of Quantum Mechanics and Knights are the Particles that can jump metadimensionally (go x, then z, then w, land in y, go y then x land in z) and land where ever, creating different configurations of matter/energy to occur.

Of course, that's assuming there isn't something ELSE going on we haven't detected yet. Ha!

The benefits of black holes

Bruce Athan — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 05:48:51 GMT

I built one of these LHC`s in my basement back in 1959 using some old telephone wires and ball bearings out of my boys roller skates. When I fired it up I was jettisoned forwards in time to 2008. I`d just about given up on any chance of you Mangano boys showing up. Now come on, get it fired up and get me the heck outta here!
B. Athan
Somewhere, Universe

The benefits of black holes

ray smith — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 06:12:51 GMT

It is good to have a "fire" extinguisher around when doing "experiments"....I wonder what that is in this case. I am glad the LHC will take us to the next level of particle physics, I am watching closely for any sign what-so-ever of the Higgs particle but I do not expect them to find any thing but a hint of the proposed black-holes that have made the media frenzy headlines of late. Now the clincher, I think the equivalent of the LHC is already in operation, albiet natures version, Saturn, for example may be haphazardly tossing higgs bosons about with not a care in the world as to who or what measures them, and jupiter would be an even better candidate, let alone the numerous black holes. Some of Nasa's directions should also be to look for opertune natural particle accelerators. In fact we should begin planning to put the LHC succesor off terra firma. The moon might be a good starting point. Thanks for a very good article....And the comments are terrific too!!! If more people could find an interest in science some of our more pressing problems in society could be seriously reduced....good or bad, please tell anyone that will listen what you read today. Really, for the sake of humanity.

ray smith

The benefits of black holes

Bruce Gee — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 06:20:45 GMT

Personally, I would rather belong to a species that destroyed itself in the quest for understanding than a species that climbed to the utmost edge of the void where it could gain ultimate cosmic knowledge, but then said, "Nah, too scary" and backed away.

The benefits of black holes

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 06:23:55 GMT

So many chicken littles. It's interesting how we will cherry pick at the science to make the worst possible scenario. Army Wife Syndrome we could call it, AWS. He'll get shot, he'll get blown up, he'll catch tsitsi or a rabid fish will attack in the desert. Show me empirical evidence that a MBH can even exist, then tell me why I should be worried about it. Until then, if you don't trust the science that shows it to be safe, why do you trust the science that shows it can exist? If all you have is a bunch of what ifs add these: What if we all burst into spontaneous human combustion? What if aliens are among us and mean us harm? What if the sun gets jiggy 5 billion years early? What if two super novae go off such that we're caught in a node that pushes us out of orbit?

For the chicken littles on here, you are hypocrites anyway. If you were truly concerned about preventing man made catastrophe you wouldn't be offended by that statement because you wouldn't see it. Your computer would be off. It's a totally unnecessary contribution to green house gasses.

That being said, I appreciate a good chicken little hypocrite from time to time. I'm probably only alive to be annoyed by them because of them.

As for the concern that future experiments haven't been so openly discussed: Data from early experiments will most likely profoundly impact the understanding of the science involved. Speculating about it now is akin to the rant of an eight year old throwing a tantrum because daddy wouldn't buy him the precious thing he won't be able to live without. "If I made as much money as he makes ..." That's easy for the eight year old to say. He doesn't have the understanding adults have. There's the house payment, car payment(s), insurance, food, nestegg (Americans can ignore that one, I know it makes no sense.) $1,000 becomes $50 faster than an eight year old would believe. I expect that when the knowledge comes to take mankind out of that eight year old state those of us contributing here won't understand it. If not for lack of brains then for lack of time. We have to work to pay all those bills. Decissions on how to proceed will be made by those immersed in that information as their job. And they have a vested interest in not destroying the planet in the near future.

The benefits of black holes

ice — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 06:24:22 GMT

This is space alien technology at its best but said in a human language. wake up. it s either a quantaum leap or space travel..beam me up scotty..give a year or two after it works and there will pocket size travel deals

The benefits of black holes

I.M, Cleveland ,Ohio — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 06:26:12 GMT

I am not a scientist and have no background knowledge of how any of this works. Speaking as a regular person with regular needs I have to ask,what are the benefits of this experiment and if a "mistake" could result in a worst case scenario situation is it worth the risk? Had the scientist on the Manhattan project known would they have gone ahead an built the atom bomb? Many said no. Do common folk get a vote before the smart guys play with black holes. Maybe this isn't such a good idea and the sad part is this is one time we don't get a vote.

The benefits of black holes

Celia G, Beaverton, Oregon — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 06:37:38 GMT

This is incredibly, incredibly exciting.
As a high-schooler, I'm put out that I'm too young to see this happen. Hopefully I'll help work on it.
Wait for me, Science!

P.S. Brilliant article.

The benefits of black holes

russ reed — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 06:44:08 GMT

There will be a rumble right before the light changes frequency and bends, distorting everyones feild of view as our reality, time and space, everything , disappears in a final rush of heavy blackness ...
At that moment, mankind finally finds the solution to his existence ...

The benefits of black holes

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 06:53:15 GMT

Bob Estes,
Fantastic job. Fairly done, insightful, no cheap shots. Not quite up to publication in a psych journal but you obviously put in way too much work on it as is. I can only imagine how grueling it must have been taking a serious, contemplative look at a lot of those comments which I happily ignore. Hopefully the moderators took the time to read it and let it influence them as to which comments make it through. It is unfortunate that the posters who need the guidance it provides are the least likely to be effected by it.

The benefits of black holes

socomsfinest — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 07:13:19 GMT

what? 5 billions years iam sorry i cant wait that long i want u to blow us up now!!

The benefits of black holes

larry flynn — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 08:03:45 GMT

The black hole will be like pacman and will gobble up the entire planet before the scientists can even say whoops. Or not.

The benefits of black holes

William Stewart, Canberra "Down Under" Australia — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 09:58:45 GMT

Terrific read ! I am so looking forward to the results of these experiments. I cannot imagine why so few people are unaware of what is going on at CERN. Most people have no idea what the LHC is. The average person is not aware that scientist, to this day, have not been able to find a "Theory of Everything", a theory that would unify or explain through a single model the theories of all fundamental interactions of nature. The main candidate at the moment is Superstring Theory, which requires 10 or 11 dimensions. Hopefully these experiments will unearth these extra dimensions. I for one am very curious about our Universe and our very existence.
For decades, theorists have tried various strategies to roll up the gravitational field and the quantum field into one set of equations. This has been the "Holy Grail" of Physics. Now we have a chance to venture into new territory.. to go where no man has gone before.
I am excited. I am not a Physicist. I am simply a person who reads as much as I can about new discoveries, new possibilies. I look around me and shake my head in disbelief when I see the rubbish that interests most of the population. For those against the start-up of the LHC, I strongly suggest that "Reality" shows have done more damage to humankind than the LHC could ever come close to doing. What has happened to us ? Where has our spirit of adventure gone ? If we never take chances, as we have done in the past, we will never discover anything new. I believe that the people who are objecting to the operation of the LHC need to take a good look at themselves and ask themselves some serious questions. I am 53 years of age and it is so great to be alive during this amazing age of technology. Let's grasp this opportunity with both hands and get this show on the road ! This is the most exciting thing since the moon landing... only 90 percent of the population of the world don't know it yet !!

The benefits of black holes

Bored Civil Servant with too much time, Dublin — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 10:34:36 GMT

Great read, lots of food for thought for the scientifically curious lay-man like myself. Lets support this man's work and others like him, stop practicing witchcraft and superstition, bridge the gap between philosophy and science, get these anti-matter warp engines fired up and make it so!!

The benefits of black holes

Anuraag Aggarwal, Pune, India — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 11:21:22 GMT

A masterpiece article. This highlight the worst and best possible outcomes of LHC. Feels like talking to a director of a sci-fi movie. I will now have to read more about LHC.

The benefits of black holes

vannatta, New York, NY — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 11:55:45 GMT

Awesome, awesome article. If for some reason anything at all does get swallowed up, I can only hope that it includes the physicist that created, and say, anyone else in the room. ;) - Great science on how we (almost certainly) will not be swallowed up by a microscopic black hole - any more (or any faster) than a dust mite can eat your entire bed - even with enough time. Cheers!

The benefits of black holes

lin — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 12:43:14 GMT

What's the point of making a microscopic black hole? Just to know more about them? Seems pretty pointless except for wasting a lot of energy.

The benefits of black holes

Dave S., Toronto, Canada — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 12:56:44 GMT

OK, doesn't anyone else see the complete logical fault(s) in Mangano's description of the non-effects of black holes on neutron stars and/or white dwarfs? Firstly, as has already been pointed out above, the de-energizing effects of the gravitational field around the wd or ns would slow particles before they hit those objects, so there is no real way to make the analogy to the highest energy collisions that the LHC will eventually generate.

But far more importantly - he says that "if it produced a black hole that was capable of consuming the star, the star would be gone. It would not be there." Well "DUH", if the ns or wd is not there, then what would he have to observe? How can he base his argument on stars that are still there and observable, when any that HAD been consumed by a black hole WOULD NOT BE THERE?

There are just too many unknowable factors, too many contradictory theories, to believe that he knows what he is talking about - especially considering his vested interest in the LHC. Any mistake here costs us or existence - so how does someone like Mangano have the audacity to say he has the answer - and that we are safe?

The benefits of black holes

billy bob, levelland, texas — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 13:02:58 GMT

what's a black hole?

The benefits of black holes

Branden Gemzer, Egelston Township, MI — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 13:27:14 GMT

I agree, this will be very interesting. We need something new to respark the light of science in the world.

The benefits of black holes

Art Fuller, Madison, WI — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 15:08:43 GMT

It appears that Mangano has thought of everything. I don't want to ever hear him say...Darn it all..I wish I had thought of that.

The benefits of black holes

Guillermo, Fort Worth, Texas — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 16:01:08 GMT

I can assure you that black holes present an imminent threat to life on earth and are already in our midst.

For years, my tax dollars have been getting sucked into one located somewhere in Washington, D.C.

The benefits of black holes

Bill — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 16:09:08 GMT

In this article, I noticed an assumption of what are the odds of the creation of a single black hole in a dense structure and that black hole growing large enough to consume the structure.

What about the creation of a cloud of microscopic black holes in a non-dense structure? There is an assumption that a small black hole would not have the gravitational field to swallow a particle in proximity to the black hole before the black hole evaporates. What I did not hear was what happens when a cluster of black holes are created and pushed together via the LHC containment field. A near instant merging of say 100 microscopic black holes is a completely different story than the existence of a single black hole in a dense structure. You could have a much larger, stronger and older black hole to deal with.

The benefits of black holes

Marty Martineau — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 16:11:09 GMT

If we are assume that a microscopic black hole can be produced by the LHC and we are wrong in our theories, would it be possible a rip could occur causing say a wormhole and instantanously transporting the LHC into another dimension without anyone knowing what happened? "What can go wrong, will go Wrong!"

Also, does anyone know of person that can answer a question regarding what is beyond the universe. If in fact the universe is expanding and will fall back upon itself. What is the area (space) that it is expanding into or leaving behind?

Is there more than one universe? If so, what happens when one expands into another?

[ALAN ADDS: The first part of your question is what Mangano addressed in the latter part of the Q&A. The LHC is the most powerful collider constructed to date, but it's way less powerful than what's going on out in the universe. The collision strength of particles hitting astronomical bodies is orders of magnitude higher, and over the course of billions of years, some of those collisions would have (or might not have) produced exotic phenomena in proximity to astronomical objects. If there were a catastrophic rip-in-spacetime event (this sounds like the vacuum-bubble event mentioned in the CERN safety report), such a phenomenon would already have had an impact.

[As to what the universe is expanding into, there are a couple of levels to that question. For three-dimensional space, here's a quickie answer from physicist Michio Kaku:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3077398/

[If you allow for extradimensional physics, theorists sometimes see the universe as one of many potential universes in a larger extradimensional space known as "the bulk." For more on this concept, check out this story:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13070896/

[Hope this is helpful...]

The benefits of black holes

GF Smith, Austin TX — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 17:40:52 GMT

There is already a proposal for Faster Than Light (FTL) travel,see this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive

Perhaps some deeper knowledge from the LHC about the construction of spacetime will result in FTL travel someday in the future. This 4-dimensional existence is so boring!

The benefits of black holes

MJ Staley — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 17:46:18 GMT

"Anything that could destroy the earth cannot just happen on earth, it would have to be able to happen somewhere else."

Well, I guess if you ignore minor issues like global warming and nuclear war ...

The benefits of black holes

MJ Dinkel — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 19:10:53 GMT

Great article on a fascinating subject!!! Thank you many times over for your continuing coverage of this important story. Suggestions for future topics might include the Atlas and Alice experiments and plans for the International Linear Collider. The discussion of the risks also creates focus for the opportunities. I don't dismiss the risks as insignificant because there are too many examples throughout history that demonstrate error only after it is too late: e.g., Nazi Germany, global warming, nuclear proliferation etc. Hopefully, the LHC will prove to be a Library of Alexandria, not a Tower of Babel.

The benefits of black holes

Opondo, CA — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 19:49:14 GMT

If we manage to create a microscopic black hole in the fabric of space and time, it may continue to grow exponentially in size and rapidness (at the rate of the universe's expansion), consuming everything around it. Sayonara! This surely shall destroy this beautiful place we call home, our universe as we know it. Are we willing to take that chance?

The benefits of black holes

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 22:39:39 GMT

Ray Smith brought up a good point about the fire extinguisher. What about antimatter? Would there be enough attraction to matter-matter do draw it into the anomaly should things go terribly awry?

Also Billy Bob brings up a good question, what is a black hole? I've been giving this some thought and can't get my mind aroun MBHs. In a high energy collision between two particles as minute as protons. You look at the maximum system energy as they approach light speed and translate that to mass, and then get an amount of gravity, it just seems too small. At least for my concept of a black hole coming from stellar collapse. So what makes a black hole a black hole?

The benefits of black holes

M. Larson — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 22:49:29 GMT

Somone mentioned a "cloud of microscopic black holes."

Both Einstein and Feynman were playful souls, and made some of the most profound contributions to physics and science. (All science eventually boils down to physics, or description of entities moving through time.)

Anyway:

Could it BE possible that:

A cluster of mini-black holes that open and close so quickly, allowing particles to move in AND out of them, produces a sort of reverse gravitational field, hmmm? Why doesn't matter just spontaneously fall apart at the macro level? At a certain microscopic level, it's ionic bonding of atoms into molecules and the repetition and sequencing of molecules that help maintain the form. Still, that's a lot of stuff going on at the microlevel to maintain the perception of consistency in the macro world.

Maybe mini-black holes are all around us, hmmm? Surrounding us. Maybe it's these little black holes that transport sub-atomic particles intradimensionally that determine if something stays together or flies apart. (A thermodynamics model appears to be a better description of a dynamic system versus a pure Newtonian one: Reference Order Out of Chaos by Prigogine - Fascinating Read. Same with QED by Feynman.)

The benefits of black holes

S.W., Boise, ID — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 02:08:27 GMT

I love the plain and clear way in which he explains why there isn't any real risk (at least due to black holes) from the LHC. I wish everyone would read this article...

The benefits of black holes

Romeo — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 10:27:40 GMT

I love science but this is hardly science. Eloquent interview? Yes, but there are too many huge assumptions. The safety issues remain hardly addressed. Quote: “God knows what we will uncover.” This experiment is rather a huge leap of faith. The only conclusion that can be drawn from this interview with the LHC “safety report” author is that the scientists do not know exactly what they are doing and what will happen once the LHC is in operation. They are going scientifically and physically into very dangerous waters in uncharted territory. They are eager to play with some of the most awesome forces in the universe. Yet, their detectors will produce so much data that it will take years to analyze what really happened, while it has already happened. There needs to be a full-sized, worldwide debate, on the risks versus benefits of this project, presented by scientists, in a worldwide referendum outside of the scientific community.

The benefits of black holes

Rosendo Marcano — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 17:43:55 GMT

I'm not a Physicist but what I'm hearing is you got a bunch of unproved theories (assumptions based on assumptions). but you figure everything will be o.k.

I remember that before they tested the first atomic bomb some scientists warned that there was no knowing
if the chain reaction would get out of control and destroy everything, they of course went ahead and did it anyway. anyone under 40, or with children has a stake in the future, "Atlantis redux". We're approaching the next octave.

The benefits of black holes

JTankers, Middleton WI — Sun, 06 Jul 2008 16:28:32 GMT

Studies in progress may tend to further challenge cosmic ray safety arguments which may not have fully explored properties of neutrinos nor fully accounted for the effects of extremely powerful magnetic fields surrounding neutron stars and white dwarfs that may tend to challenge some of the assumptions made.

Results of such studies may tend to indicate that safety is not yet verified or assured.

The benefits of black holes

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Sun, 06 Jul 2008 22:03:48 GMT

Romeo,
You so miss the meaning. God knows what we'll discover when we open this old diary we just found. Long lost family recipes, stories of rape and incest, murderous plots, descriptions of the weather, the day to day rumours of a small town recorded for posterity. Completely unlike what we'll find when we open a copy of The Lord of the Rings. We already know that story, no surprises. God knows what we'll uncover - critical information that will lead us to an understanding of the essence of gravity, new understandings about quantum physics that will open up a whole new form of communication that replaces radio waves, the fact that at certain energy levels colliding neutrons make pretty light shows. The statement means nothing more, and nothing less sinister than what we will find reading a book. Twisting the meaning into something ominous is a trick common to the paranoid ignorant. Another chicken little.

The benefits of black holes

Charles Kapplinger Jr — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 02:13:26 GMT

Please remember that astrophysicists and the physicists at CERN are often wrong.

And please note that the Big Bang theory is quite wrong (and obviously so).

CNN.com and AP report --
“Scientists plan to hunt for signs of the invisible "dark matter" and "dark energy" that make up more than 96 percent of the universe, and hope to glimpse the elusive Higgs boson, a so-far undiscovered particle thought to give matter its mass.”

The concepts of “dark matter” and “dark energy” are spurious. These concepts are based upon the incorrect Big Bang theory.

So what is the purpose of the LHC??

The benefits of black holes

Robert Alto, Texas — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 17:49:29 GMT

These quantum blackholes are so small that even ei we created trillions upon trillions of them it would be like all the supermassive blackhole in the universe eating the universe. Even if they were charged they would only stay charged until they ate a few electrons. It would take the whole age of the universe for them to eat the earth don't think?

The benefits of black holes

jdtseattlewa — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 00:57:40 GMT

Okay, this is the kind of data with the paramecium-level explanations that I was hoping for. Let 'er rip!

The benefits of black holes

Trevor Ockenden, Sydney, Australia — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 02:08:56 GMT

I used to believe that if we just learned that little bit more then maybe there will be a way out of this place ... well somehow I think it was meant to be that we are marooned within this very thin envelope of an atmosphere on this small unobtrusive planet in a relatively suburban part of our galaxy for a good reason somewhere in an inconcevably large universe.

Perhaps we are spiritual beings having a human experience and not the other way round. Once we open to this idea then the other dimensions are already there for our enjoyment. Have fun - while we can.

The benefits of black holes

kyle, french lick, indiana — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 04:23:01 GMT

im pretty young (16 to be exact) but this is the kind of stuff i love. everyday i wonder about different deminsions that could even be rite next to me. and also other planets in the universe. i wish all the scientist luck. Maybe one day well find that place to move to..

The benefits of black holes

kyle, french lick, indiana — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 04:26:39 GMT

im pretty young (16 to be exact) but this is the kind of stuff i love, blackholes, space and dimensions. everyday i wonder about different deminsions that could even be rite next to me. and also other planets in the universe. i wish all the scientist luck.

The benefits of black holes

P.L. Williams Madison, Wisconsin — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 18:13:06 GMT

If the only way to detect a small black hole produced at LHC is by the decay products, then if it doesn't decay or disperse energy, how will we know one has been produced?

The benefits of black holes

Marc Rome, New York City — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 21:11:29 GMT

“Seven Seconds to Midnight”
It is truly Ironic that while hundreds of thousands of fellow Homo Sapiens are starving, homeless or being slaughtered as they are in the Sudan,
our greatest scientific minds are focused not on a War on Hunger, Homelessness, or Genocide but on discovering “The God Particle”.

When these people say “fire her up” this is all very exciting for the physicists involved. We’re talking Nobel Prizes, Chairs in prestigious Universitys and big Research Grants etc.,
They view themselves as pioneers akin to those who undertook potentially dangerous research before them; The Wright Brothers, The Craig Breedloves etc., but I believe there is a difference between men risking their own lives on the one hand and scientists risking the stability of our planet and the lives of (6) billion unsuspecting Wo(Men) and children on the other.

According to legend and a respected philosopher named Plato there was once a continent with a highly advanced civilization called “Atlantis” that quite literally disappeared off the face of the earth. Some theories say that they were victims of their own science. Is there a parallel here, are we approaching “the next octave” ?

To the scientists that interject
“that’s just a theory” I respectfully
Submit, that’s exactly what you are working with
“A bunch of theories”.

iota by iota, We are all writing this Story,
A few by commission and most by omission,
While there is still Time, there is still Hope...

Atlantis aside, There is an interesting (if not frightening) precedent for this project, before the detonation of the first atomic bomb some scientists warned of the possibility that the chain reaction could get out of control and destroy everything, well they went ahead and did it anyway.
At least then there was what was perceived as an urgent need.

Is finding the “Higgs Boson” the most urgent issue that needs to be resolved at this point in the history of “genus homo sapiens” ?

Can our brilliant scientists focus on the real and pressing problems in todays world ?, Please,
pretty please with icing on top !!!

I suspect (and not without precedent) that the real danger lies with the knowledge of the cosmic forces that will be gained from this project.
That is; when we learn to harness the energy of the cosmos, that knowledge will be used for the creation of “Weapons of Universal Destruction” for those who may believe that such a thing is too insane for any country to attempt, “Doomsday” devices are already in existence. This is part of a “M.A.D.D.”defense strategy by several countries.
(Mutually Assured Destruction Devices).

this from the CERN website.
“Researchers have some ideas of what to expect /
but also expect the unexpected!”

I have always felt that Einstein could have solved the “Unified Field Equation”, but he knew better than to release that knowledge to this world.

Anyhow, if the LHC* goes bad, it may unintentionally solve our planets most urgent problems of overpopulation, hunger and homelessness by precipitating our demise.

It’s time to reset the atomic clock**,
From now on it’s “seven seconds to midnight”

MARC ROME
New York City

* Large Hadron Collider
** Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists

The benefits of black holes

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Fri, 11 Jul 2008 09:17:59 GMT

Marc,
It should be noted that sustained fission requires critical mass and critical geometry, enough fissionable material packed closely enough together. Going beyond the minimum you can quickly get to supercritical and explosive. Nuclear explosions generate a lot of heat. Heat makes fires, not nuclear explosions. The air is not made up of fissionable material, it lacks critical mass. The ground has a lot of fissionable material in it but it's separated by vast distances, it has critical mass, but lacks critical density. Exploding a nuclear weapon on earth will make hot air and hot ground. You simply can't make potting soil fission. So, ...
Some people were afraid that the entire earth would get caught up in an unstoppable nuclear reaction. Those people didn't understand that part about not being able to make potting soil fission. Some other people did understand that you can't make potting soil fission. Those other people went ahead and conducted the experiments. If your grandpa was an auto mechanic and he was afraid that the whole earth might blow up then it's good that he didn't go ahead with the experiments. But the fears of the uninformed should not stop us from proceeding. There will always be people with more fear than knowledge. That's mostly because a lot of scientific stuff requires more knowledge to understand than most people have. A lot of science is so specialized that a lot of scientists don't have the requisite knowledge to understand it. Hopefully that means that a lot of cancer researchers don't understand the LHC, and not that a lot of LHC researchers don't understand the LHC. I've heard it said that we fear the unknown. This will always be unknown to many. In 50 years people will blog their concerns about some new experiment and recall how there were concerns but they went ahead and detonated an atom bomb, and there were concerns but they went ahead and fired up the LHC. In 50 years the people who have the knowledge and understand what they're doing will ignore the ignorant frightened and proceed.

On the social responsibility note, I agree, generally. But we expect a lot of unknown good to come out of this. That's the "unexpected" from your citation. We expect it because we keep getting unexpected good out of research. So rather than hamstringing scientific efforts, the likes of which have lengthened the quantity and increased the quality of life for millions of people, let's redirect billions of dollars of funds from something that really only benefits a choice few. Let's take all the money from professional sports and feed the hungry, clothe the naked and cure the sick. The only good I know of that baseball ever brought us is when we used 1/10 the money tickets to the ballpark would have cost, bought equipment and played it. The "War on Hunger" is not fought with stadium dogs.

The benefits of black holes

noname — Sat, 12 Jul 2008 02:09:33 GMT

A black hole is nothing more than a space hurricane.

The benefits of black holes

Philip J. Calamatas, Montreal Canada — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 23:21:44 GMT

Tim Rommes

I may be responding to your comment a little late but I think you have a major misunderstanding believing that the problem was “Fission” based. The problem was not an issue of Fission but rather that of “Fusion”. You see the argument was that the intense heat and pressure from a Fission explosion (an atomic bomb) would cause the hydrogen that was pervasive in water molecules in the atmosphere (and again later when they performed the underwater “Baker” A-bomb tests) to fuse resulting in a global conflagration. Please understand that the only difference between fusing atmospheric hydrogen and that of a Fusion Hydrogen-Bomb is only in the technical details but the principles are the same. So should we today mock the people that were worried at that time about destroying the planet? Or should we view these people as heroes that had the guts to stand up and force people to realize the potential dangers.

We may not destroy the Earth with a micro black hole this time, but I can say with absolute certainty the time will come when something may indeed threaten OUR planet’s survival and whose fate will rest in the hands of someone crying wolf for real. As far as I am Con-CERN-ed there can never be enough wolf warnings if it makes the people involved step back and rethink / analyze the situation more clearly. There is no reason on Earth for CERN to rush into these tests until everyone who has the technical ability to voice their opinions has a chance in an open unbiased form. I firmly believe that CERN has too much an investment at stake in this project to make an impartial decision therefore the judgment must rest elsewhere and must be binding upon CERN.

The benefits of black holes

Philip J. Calamatas — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 16:59:51 GMT

I would like to point out to Mr. Michelangelo Mangano (who is one of the Physicists at CERN) that your last statement is somewhat erroneous!

The Sun will not blow up in 5 billion years as you stated in your closing comment. By then it will have SLOWLY expanded into a Red-Giant phase and will have expelled its outer layers of hydrogen into interstellar space (forming what is known as a planetary nebula) and thus becoming a white dwarf. However this predicted solar expansion will have roasted the Earth approximately 1 billion years hence a lot sooner than you’re 5 billion.

By the way, stars that Blow-up are called Nova, Super-Nova, Hyper-Nova, and perhaps a new distinction called by some astronomers as an Anti-Matter-Nova which could be the fate of the star “Eta Carina”.

The point I am raising is that the Physicists at CERN not infallible as your (Planck scale) error points out! You should not make predictions involving the potential destruction of our Earth base only upon theories, speculations and (worst yet) assumptions. I.e. How do you know that Hawking radiation exists, have you ever seen and measured it? What fail-safes have you implemented incase the micro black hole remains stable? The new GLAST satellite may generate valuable information in this respect; why not wait until you can get some solid evidence from it before performing your experiments? These are but a few of the many questions I am sure you’ve heard a thousand times before, however I have yet to read anything that clearly answers these Con-CERN-s.

I am a firm believer in scientific progress and I expect that CERN will eventually prove to be one of the greatest assets in this regard, but this must be handled with extreme caution as you are walking into a mine-field, there may only be one mine but if you step on it there’s no turning back. In that event at least you’d know that you won’t have to submit to any board of inquiry :)

The benefits of black holes

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Fri, 18 Jul 2008 00:59:17 GMT

Philip,
My bad, that was a 3 a.m.-trying-to-stay-awake rant. The fission part came from another discussion. Sleep deprivation leaves me easily confused.
However, on the fusion note:
This whole matter was the result of a miscalculation. Easy enough, I make them all the time. It was something in the range of this: I have a chisel and a hammer. I'm pretty sure it can split stone. What if I lay my chisel to the bedrock and strike it, might I split the world? Only it wasn't really that silly. Much like the concerns of a friend that an atomic explosion might set off ambient reactions that cascade around the globe, ambient reactions almost assuredly happen under the direct influence of a fission explosion, but less than self sustainable. Also in a fission reaction sufficient heat and pressure exist to produce a fusion reaction, also less than self sustaining in our atmosphere or oceans. A fission reaction can set off a fusion reaction, the fusion reaction produces heat and pressure, enough to produce a fusion reaction. That process can only go so far in an expanding pressure wave before the heat and pressure are too dissipated to produce a fusion reaction. That's why there was some discussion about how much volume would be destroyed. It's been a long time but I think the range for that type of reaction is about 500 meters, but that might be dependant on the size of the initial fission reaction also. But very limited.
This is the crux. The question was raised, it was a good question, it was looked into, it was found to be a non-issue, it was dismissed by the scientists who went on to conduct the experiments.
Now let's talk about child-like fear, or adult-like fear for some people. If I'm out in the woods in a cabin in an area where I know bears to be present I will have acknowledged the danger that bears pose. If I wake up in the middle of the night and see a bear in the cabin I'll have to change the sheets, I'll be that scared when faced with the dangerous animal. A small child will be afraid of the dark because the bear might be there. In the dark the child can't see that the bear is not there, so there's no way to feel safe. I'd be scared if a saw a bear, a child would be scared if he didn't see that a bear wasn't there. Too many people are afraid, not because they know there's something to be afraid of, but because they don't know that it's safe. Most of them don't know because they can't understand. Many of those will be afraid as long as there’s one other person who doesn’t understand who’s willing to speak up. That’s one ignorant voice fueling a lot of ignorant fear.
If you want fear because you can’t know safety sit in the dark. Incandescent bulbs create an oscillating magnetic field around the glowing coil. If that oscillating field cracks the fabric of space-time it could open a worm hole to another dimension and allow “them” in. Just because billions of incandescents haven’t done it yet doesn’t mean it can’t happen, just that it’s a low probability high consequence phenomenon. The possibilities are catastrophic, so turn off your incandescents. Fluorescent bulbs use an arc to start emitting light, the arc creates a magnetic pulse, similar to the oscillations above, but only once, that could also fracture space-time. There’s a much greater risk of a rupture in lightning bolts because they’re bigger, but it’s all about enough stress at a weak enough spot in space-time. The additional risk, although minimal, of fluorescent lights is simply unacceptable. Turn those off, too. Don’t even get me started on vacuum cleaners.

The benefits of black holes

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Fri, 18 Jul 2008 01:02:34 GMT

Philip,
I would like to point out that Mr. Michelangelo Mangano’s (who is one of the Physicists at CERN) last statement is somewhat correct!

The Sun will not blow up completely in 5 billion years. When stars make the transition to white dwarf they do it by blowing off their outer layers. This is somewhat like having a cannon ball inside a powder keg and setting off the keg. When the powder explodes and the keg goes every which way as a bunch of splinters that is an explosion, even though the cannon ball doesn’t explode. When the star blows off it’s outer layers, that is an explosion even though the core doesn’t explode.

Don’t think I don’t appreciate you. Your comments are both interesting and thought provoking.

The benefits of black holes

Brian Murphy, aston pa — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 16:09:33 GMT

why do i see so many of the doomsday responders saying that the whole Hawking Radiation theroy isn't proven and we should stop the LHC?

by my reading of the article I am pretty sure the saftey report said that even if there is no hawking radiation it still wouldn't be a danger.
----
This does have the same feeling of nukes will chain react all of the hydrogen in the atmosphere fears.

The whole idea is this the MBH will be so small that their gravity will not be great enough to draw in any other of the exotic particles that would be created due to the "vast" relative distances in quantum physics. if you think of the distance between the sun and the next nearest star then mutiply by a large factor that is the kind of relative distances we are talking about relative to the quantum scale.
----

I personally don't think MBHs will be produced @ LHC. we might get a unique quantum particle or 2 but with my interested lay persons understaning I don't think there is enough energy.
========================
lastly for the poster concerned about the "wasting" of resources when there are so many social ills that require attention(and funding).
This also has the chance to discover the next energy source that we could use to a Star Trek like utopia that would allow converion of energy to matter and create replicators to produce limitless supply of food and destroy the social & economic systems that we use today. its a long shot but we never know untill we try.

The benefits of black holes

Ariel, Kailua-Kona, Hawaii — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 09:56:37 GMT

This article scares me a little bit. I understand the risk for total annihilation is very slim ...but the risk is still there ...why would this project even be considered when there is a chance, however small, that the earth could be destroyed?

The benefits of black holes

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 23:11:11 GMT

Ariel,
There is a definite risk that we'll be hit by a meteor of significant size. There is, now, a definite risk of destroying the planet ourselves because our cars are part of the family. There is a very great probability of discovering something that saves us from these calamities. Learn something about gravity and all the sudden we can see that bad boy coming in time to gently steer it away. Earth saved because we dared to explore. We could discover some way to clean the atmosphere and truly leave this place cleaner than we found it. A great gift for future generations. If you eat food there's a risk of being poisoned. If you don't eat death is sure. If you run through the flames of your burning house you might get burned. If you sit and watch you will almost surely roast like a chicken. If you really do a risk analysis, aren't the risks of not exploring greater? This is not always the case, but we sit in so much peril that we can go forth boldly with a small risk of sudden death but great reward of longevity of the species or "play it safe" and ensure a longer time to a more certain end.

The benefits of black holes

T. Little — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 23:38:50 GMT

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

The benefits of black holes

Vladimir Staykov, Sofia, Bulgaria. — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 07:23:12 GMT

"You know, 5 billion years from now, the sun is going to blow up. There is nothing we can do about that."
WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THE GUY !?
As a species we have been around for less than a million years. We manage to acquire reasonably sophisticated technology for the last sixty years, and for less than a century we managed to create so many insurmountable problems that potentially can to lead to our extinction and Mangano is talking about billion years in our future.
I think that our biggest problems come from "trigger happy cowboys" that do not think for the consequences and act on vague deductions. The truth is that we do not know much about our universe and CARN's LHC is a loaded gun in the hands of an ape.
For the sake of humanity, do not let people like this decide our fate.

The benefits of black holes

Jon brooks — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 17:17:39 GMT

While breaking for lunch I couldn't help but respond
to this interesting article. I personally don't think disaster awaits us when CERN is operating at low or full power but lets play..what if. Possible thousands of interactions at the surface/core etc. of a neutron star that is a few billion years old would equate to an event once every few million or hundreds of thousands of years on average, far less frequent than supernova, mayhaps this explains why we havent seen even one yet, since we have only have had telescopes for a few hundred years. What if within the folded spacetime that we disrupt momentarily in this dimension via the collider, its effect propagates and unfolds a string resulting in it influencing another and another and another....and we end up with a zero point vacuum energy explosion? I did a calculation once on a cubic meter of space its volume comprised of strings at 10 to the minus 33 meter wavelength, using the energy equation for photons or quantas of energy, E=h x nue
to calculate the energy of one string then extrapolating that to the whole population of strings in a cubic meter of "empty" space and..voila.. its enough to power our galaxy for a year based on a billion stars putting out 465 million megatons of energy conversion a second average. Go to a conversion table to find out the conversion from pounds/tons/etc. of explosive to ergs of energy. Not only could we take out earth..but the whole galaxy as well:) I guess the what if here is ..what if we accidentaly unfold space not compress it. Enjoy.
In letters to Micheal a book of correspondence between lucifer and micheal, micheal observes a solar system going..poof! He writes lucifer and asks him if that was him that destroyed that star planets and civilization. Lucifer writes back and says basically
..twasnt me..all i gave them were the equations:)

The benefits of black holes

Stephan — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 07:05:06 GMT

I understand a bunch of u guys are happy and excited over the LHC. I myself must agree it is an amazing acomplishment. But i also have to agree with the person who said, "If something can go wrong, it will go wrong." Are the benefits of this experiment really worth the risks? Compare it to a drunk driver...with six billion passengers. We don't know the outcome. Many of us would prefer that CERN would wait a little bit until they confirm that this is safe. Even if the risk is 1 in a million trillion, there is still a possibility that it may happen. Another worry about the LHC is the possibility of it creating a strangelet. If you don't know what it is just look it up in wikipedia. If a strangelet forms, it may eventually convert Earth into a lump of strange matter. So not worth it. I'm not saying the LHC was a bad idea, but it isn't a good one either. We should be spending that $10 million dollars on something more productive, like fighting global warming, curing cancer, etc. With mankind and the creatures around him at stake, I wouldn't risk it.

The benefits of black holes

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Sun, 07 Sep 2008 07:03:46 GMT

Stephan,
The gist of the safety report is that this experiment is already being performed by the universe. It has been for billions of years and we seem to still be here. If any of the weird things were going to happen the would be happening naturally. We can't rule out that they happen, but we can say that if they do happen, they're not dangerous.
Don't compare it to a drunk driver, compare it to a river. I'm afraid to open the tap in my kitchen. The water in the pipes is under pressure. If I open the tap water will come out. It will flow through the pipes. What if the friction of flowing causes it to superheat. On the one hand I could get a drink, on the other hand there could be a steam explosion anywhere in the piping system that may kill thousands. The risk isn't worth it. However, I can go to the river and see water flowing over rocks. More friction there than in a pipe, and that water stays pretty cold. Water has been flowing in rivers my whole life without so much as a boil. This is the scale of the argument. If the water one sounds ridiculous but you give credance to the atom smasher one it's only because you're more familiar with water. You have personal experience that tells you my steam explosion fear is stupid, even though it's based on real physics. There are some real questions asked regarding the collider, but they've been investigated and answered. The people you see on here that are vehemently opposed just won't accept the answers. If you go see people learn to rappel, sometimes, before using a slip rope they'll be tied in and eased down a cliff so they can get used to the vertical descent without having to worry about working the rope. It makes for one less distraction when they need to concentrate on the rope. Before going over the edge some people freak out. Even though their instructor has done this with thousands of people without ever deciding to drop someone because it was time for lunch, some people are controlled by fear and won't accept "I've got you." In this case some people are controlled by fear and won't accept sound answers. In this blog sometimes people can't accept what they can't understand.

The benefits of black holes

Andy Lai, Age 62 plus, Republic of Singapore — Sun, 07 Sep 2008 08:02:19 GMT

Everything happened instantly during the collusion where the whole mass of matter within and out of the circumference will burst into combustion and turning into dust as though being suckout into the atmosphere through a gigantic tube miles above the earth surface. The whole of Northern Europe be blacken into darkness with ashes, something like the Mount Krakatau of Indonesia where the whole island sink into the sea. But in this case a very gigantic and deep crater will be form as though it being bombard by an asteroid or meteoroid with earthslides around the circumference.

This is my perception vision and imagination. Who knows that, nothing serious will happen and things turn out to be in perfect control, and out of it mankind discovered the usefulness of it. A new source of cheap and abundant energy can be produced and harness in replace of fossil fuel and crude oil, and the world will be a better place to live.

The benefits of black holes

Matthew Wake, Lebanon Oregon. — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 22:19:00 GMT

The scientists never thought they would live to see a Resonance Cascade, Let alone create one! (Half-life reference)

Anyway, I don't feel safe about this, I mean you could be walking along at the time they turn on the LHC and *whoosh* black hole just ate you.

The benefits of black holes

ross whitton — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 19:09:08 GMT

cant beleive they are actualy doing this . opening a can of worms hear you just cant stop this or turn it off . messing with mother nature is a big no... surely they know this can inter fear with the earths gravatational pull .not even mentioning the earths core... who am i to say i just live hear . how about spending money on space travel got a feeling we need to get of rock and find a new home .....

The benefits of black holes

David — Thu, 11 Sep 2008 04:31:26 GMT

At some unknown date in pre-history, a caveperson called Grog put their entire known world at risk by loosing the power of fire upon everyone using friction sticks. Since then, cooking alone has saved uncountable lives.

A hundred years ago, Tesla may or may not have "skipped" an energy beam into the Tenguska forest while refining the rudiments of radio. Now every ambulance, every hospital, every household uses his technology in the name of life.

Sixty-three years ago, the team at Trinity risked setting the very air on fire, an act that many believe ended World War Two with fewer deaths than the planned invasion would have caused.

This is what it means to be human. The LHC is simply continuing the tradition.

Would any of us really have it otherwise?

The benefits of black holes

Sandor, Johnson City, TN — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 01:15:24 GMT

You talk about surviving the death of the sun 5 billion years hence. That's a joke. That would be like a prisoner on Death Row scheduled for execution tonight taking SaME because he hears it slows down the aging process by 5%. And say he gets out of his date with destiny tonight. Say the prison is hit by a derailed train and he escapes into the night. Who cares if he prolongs his life by 5%. It's over after the extra 5% just the same. Supposing man beats the ecological catastrophe he's set upon himself or a more sudden and more deliberate destruction by nuclear war, or natural phenomena in the meantime like megavolcanoes and asteroid impacts and the possibility of a massive object entering the solar system and either killing us all either with fire or with ice, and has only the long-term problems to worry about then. The earth will be uninhabitable in a mere 500 million years, not 5 billion, the Andromeda galaxy is going to collide with ours, but if we survive all that, it won't even matter, because there are two things we won't survive no matter what obstacles we defeat on the way: the first two laws of thermodynamics!

The benefits of black holes

Concerned Amarillo Tx — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 04:13:30 GMT

Two objects cannot occupy the same space ,if you make a blackhole wouldnt that cause an explosion?Or maybe you should consider that the Universe is natural and balanced and this is intetional and gos against the ballance of things.What if one of these dimensiions is the one that God lives in wouldnt we be in trouble for opening that door,who knows whats behind it. I hope you guys have a great shutdown plan that contains a big red button because you guys would be the first to go .Id be looking out for light bending and maybe some king of radiation.Goodluck and I wish the best for you and for us to.

The benefits of black holes

Eric, London, UK — Mon, 15 Dec 2008 01:26:56 GMT

Here's a section from a paper by astrophysicist Rainer Plaga
"A catastrophe at CERN?
The luminosity of a mBH accreting at the Eddington limit with the parameters
assumed above corresponds to 12 Mt TNT equivalent/sec[11], or the energy
released in a major thermonuclear explosion per second. If such a mBH would
accrete near the surface of Earth the damage they create would be much larger than deep in its interior. With the very small accretion
timescale (≪ 1 second) that was found with the parameters in section 3, a mBH created with
very small (thermal or subthermal) velocities in a collider would appear like a major nuclear explosion in the immediate vicinity of the collider."

To think that an astrophysicist could say this and there to be no tendency for reconsideration by CERN when the main counter arguments made against Plaga by Mangano and Giddings were considered, in Plaga's Sept '08 addendum to his paper, to be based on MISUNDERSTANDINGS of Plaga's own paper,
I find, well, horrifying.

nb check google scholar if you wish for the credibility of Plaga as astrophysicist.

The benefits of black holes

B. Williams — Mon, 05 Jan 2009 22:42:38 GMT

I have read the articals and M.Lason goes close Manganos LCH quest of unlocking matter seems near. I have waited with interest the 'Cernatron'and results which at present are on hold they have discovered design changes are necessary. The expanding universe is held together by string energy particals they are the product of matter converted back to energy from blackholes.Matter is the product of energy condensed by gravitational attraction where after which fusion forms stars and antimatter is the blackhole generator of matter to string energy particals. The universe is unforgiving with collapse and a new beginning.

The benefits of black holes

Rosendo Marcano — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 03:36:25 GMT

The LHC has been stopped, at least for the moment.

What intrigues me now while reviewing these posts is
the "naivette" of many otherwise intelligent people.

As I stated in my previous posting: Einstein may very
well have been able to solve the "Unified Field" equation, but he knew better than to release that knowledge to this world.

It is History, and not any theory of mine that any advanced knowledge of energy sources Will be used for military purposes to create ever more powerful Weapons of Universal Destruction.

Anyone who at this point in time speaks about "Life"
in Decades or Centuries to come is out of touch with what's actually happening in todays world.

Our planet "The World" may very well exist in centuries to come, what is very much in doubt is the
continued existence of genus Homo Sapiens here.

for anyone who is still waiting for the headline on the "New York Times" to acknowledge that we are already involved in "WWIII" it officially started when a major american city was attacked on a day which will live in Infamy, no, not December 7, 1941 (that was WWII) I'm talking about September 11, 2001.

This is a New and Unprecedented Time, and we need to deal with todays realities if we are to survive.

The answer is not to move to other planets, that's the object of "Research Grants" for misguided PHD's
and pipe dreams of the gullible.

We need to deal with the realities of the here and now, while there is still Time, there is still Hope.

If we dont deal with the otherwise mundane realities of overpopulation, hunger, homelessness and lately
the global "Money" crisis, We Will Self Destruct.
and all these super duper theoretical projects wont amount to "A hill of beans" to quote from a classic
movie from the last war.

Again, my call goes out to all our Brilliant Minds;
Solve the "Real Problems" of today's world,
If not for my Children, do it for Yours.

Rosendo Marcano, New York