Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Prophet of Doom — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 17:25:48 GMT

DOOM! Repent! The End is Nigh!

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Chance, Waldorf MD — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 18:01:15 GMT

The Overcoming Bias blog had an excellent point that while likely correct, the older report on this topic seems to have been written from the premise that there was no danger, and then went on to support that position. A better approach would have been to look at the topic much more neutrally.

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

peat moss — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 18:13:22 GMT

I dont believe we are in any real danger, other than learning more about the universe around us. Thats not even a danger, just a good idea!

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Bob Estes, Somerville, MA — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 18:22:41 GMT

Probably 30 years ago, I had a bad idea for a movie based on a graduate student predicting that a new particle accelerator would destroy the universe when it started up. Now it's happening (I mean people warning about the catastrophe). I compared that situation to the current experiment we're unintentionally conducting on global warming in my blog. (Look for dangerous experiments.)

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

P, Austin, TX — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 18:24:53 GMT

Would hate to have a mini-blackhole in existence for a couple years before it hits a flashpoint. Might validate the Mayan Calendar's end.

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Tom Orion LA California — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 18:40:45 GMT

If you COULD make a stable black hole it'd be one hell of a research tool.

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Joe — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 18:48:04 GMT

The danger in a black hole is due to it's mass creating incredible gravitational forces, not it's density. Therefore, even if the LHC is capable of creating points in space where the density of matter is as great as a black hole, they won't have anything even approaching enough mass to create the gravitational forces to hold that mass in place let alone suck the rest of the earth in as the luddites fear.

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Gphillip, Houston, Texas — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 18:49:15 GMT

Between the desire, And the spasm
Between the potency, And the existence
Between the essence, And the descent
Falls the Shadow
For Thine is the Kingdom

For Thine is, Life is, For Thine is the

This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.

—T.S. Eliot

H-I-G-G-S

I’m just kidding, you purveyors of the apocalypse. Good hunting!

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Gphillip — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 19:14:33 GMT

And for reference, the Earth has been hit many billions (if not trillions) of times by cosmic rays thousands to millions of times more powerful than this accelerator can produce. In the end, it's a very down scaled and weak replica of natural processes that have repeatedly occurred over many billions of years to every bit of exposed matter in our universe.

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Vladimir Pejic , Chicago , IL — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 19:53:22 GMT

If we end up having a mini black hole in our yard we should just do what we do best.... blast it to pieces with one of our rockets.

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

jenni — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 20:03:05 GMT

People love to bring up the Mayan calendar, yet they know very little about it or why it stops at 2012. The assumptions of the end of the world have grown in the hundred of thousands over the last few thousand years, yet we still are here. If something were to go wrong at CERN, I'm sure we'd be gone before 2012. The possiblity of mass wipeout is probably one in a billion. We are most likely in more danger of an asteroid collision.

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Douglas — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 20:04:02 GMT

Yes, cosmic rays have been hitting earth for millions of years, yet they leave out one little detail, the earth is not moving at light speed, in fact earth can't move a centimeter without getting hit by cosmic rays, so how can CERN physicists compare the experiment at the Large Hadron Collider, where nothing is stationary, to cosmic rays hitting a stationary planet. The Protons in the LHC are traveling at each other at light speed till they collide, which is not happening in nature. Now if CERN physicists want to mimic what's happening in nature, then one set of protons at the LHC should be hitting stationary protons.

Think of Earth as a pool table, when cosmic rays hit stationary earth particles, like a cue ball hitting racked balls, the particles as well as the cosmic ray bounce harmlessly into space. Now if you were to have two cue balls collide at the same speed and point, like what will happen with the protons at the Large Hadron Collider, the cue balls will collide and stay right where they collided, like the protons at the LHC. Nothing bounces away. Now if the colliding protons create a stationary black hole that is stable, gravity will take place, and the black hole will gravitate to the center of the earth where it will grow.

Physicists state black holes created at the LHC will evaporate due to a theoretical process, Hawking Radiation, which has been onced proved to be in error due to a lost bet by Stephen Hawking. Hawking Radiation has never been witnessed or proven to exist, but they're willing to risk the world in hope it does exist for fame and fortune.

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

christian — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 20:23:10 GMT

I think the people with concerns have a right to have their concerns addressed in court. Personally, I don't think it will be the end of the world. It's obvious the Tribulation hasn't occurred nor is that the way the end of the world is described in the Bible.

However, that's not to say that it might not cause some kind of domino effect that will bring about the end, or that knowledge gained from its use won't do the same. As for me, I don't care. Collider or no collider, the end is near and there's nothing we can do to change the outcome (or even the series of events that must take place). I welcome the end as I know where my eternal resting place will be. Do you?

Revelation 22:

20He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

21The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.

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Pundit Joe, NC, USA — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 20:38:07 GMT

Dang, there goes my excuse for an "End of the World" party. Aww, what the heck - I'm gonna throw the party anyway! lol

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Chris, Seattle, WA — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 20:44:15 GMT

Sad news; I was hoping to use one of those tiny black holes to help me clean out my garage!

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Big Len, Boulder Colorado — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 21:32:38 GMT

Anyone who thinks the scientists conducting an experiment cannot get "too close" and miss something important ought to look at the "Castle Bravo" nuclear test and what happened there. Everyone missed it. Scientists aren't infallible even when they tell us they're infallible.

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Brad — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 21:33:28 GMT

Douglas, it's called "relativity". Look it up.

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

HVACDoc, Manchester, NH — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 21:47:23 GMT

Very well written comment, Douglas. My thanks for such an insightful view.

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Thomas W. Stevens, Eugene, OR — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 21:48:24 GMT

I find the religious zealots fascinating, not because they bring anything to the table, but rather that they pretend to know, with great passion and certainty, when the end of the world will come, which is based solely upon a book of fairytales.

Yes, we are all going to die. Our lives will end, and the matter that made up our bodies will be reused again and again. Nothing is ever wasted or destroyed. There will be no second chances nor afterlife, no heaven nor hell. Our only practical option is to try and make life better here on earth. Eventually, the earth will die, as will our sun. We know this with great certainty. The question is what will we do to overcome this limitation?

The religious zealots are a waste of humanity and energy.

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

oldBEAR, seattle WA — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 21:53:11 GMT

The end wont come until 12/21/12 (per the Aztecs) so why worry, get thee to vegas and have some fun!!!

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Marcus Etherton, Illinois — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 21:54:23 GMT

I don't think that scientists should rely so heavily on the prospect that hawking radiation exists as there is little to no evidence supporting it.

Putting that much weight into a theory, in my opinion, is an unacceptable risk.

Seeing as it is 7 times (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) larger than its predecessors, the LHC has a lot of room to approach full power and still go beyond what's already known. I think we should start from where we left off with previous particle colliders and study it, and I think that they should ease into it instead of just testing it and going for the gold.

"The planet’s survival has become so uncertain that any effort, any thought that presupposes an assured future amounts to a mad gamble."

- Elias Canetti

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Paul van Gent Leiden The Netherlands — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 22:13:48 GMT

Projects like Cern are themselves monstrous black holes gobbling up billions of taxpayer money for a return of about one elemental particle every ten years. Who needs religious fundamentalists when the true zealots wear lab coats.

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

steve smyth — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 22:34:26 GMT

Someone needs to locate an old piece of film from the Manhattan Project.
Oppenheimer and The Boys are hiding in a bunker, awaiting the light-off of The Big One numero uno.
They are really nervous about the possibility of the chain reaction being unstoppable.
Nervous, but giddy.
Johnny Von Neumann...the human calculator...who was actually an unfortunate, childlike math savant being utilized as a computer...sat against a wall* in the fetal postion, sucking his thumb, and shivering...he was that scared.
Oppenheimer glared at him, and the rest is History.
They were like tittering old women at their first porn flick...no kiddin'!
The films shown on History Channel, etc. have been seriously edited...find the entire sequence to see Von Neumann.
Point being...the worst did not happen...but, they really didn't know up to the moment of ignition...and they set it off anyway.
Up to the point that Hadron produces the Black Hole from Hell, or doesn't...we'll never know for certain...it happens that way, movin' West, Kids...
*I always thought the whole bend over and kiss your butt goodbye idea came from him...same position...same possibility...sorta...
Forge Ahead, Kids!

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John Doe, Seattle, Wash — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 22:52:15 GMT

Douglas,

One cue ball hitting another is equivalent in energy to two cue balls approaching each other at half the velocity. The 2*1/2m(v/2)^2 appears smaller, but in the case of the resting cue ball, after the collision the resting cue ball carries away more kinetic energy relative to the observer. But it is all relative.

They don't seem the same when you look at real cue balls, but that is because you are comparing in to the pool table. There is no cosmic pool table to compare to.

Joe "The danger in a black hole is due to it's mass creating incredible gravitational forces, not it's density."

The problem is that a seed black whole might not have much gravity, but if it comes near other atoms it will keep sucking them in an grow until it does have a lot of gravity. The fact that this doesn't happen with cosmic rays is what is convincing.

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

John , Tulsa, OK — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 22:59:18 GMT

I'm just curious about one thing (okay, more than one thing but I'll keep it to just one here)... I'm wondering how many Particle Physicists are actually sitting judges? I mean, how do we expect a judge whose training is in law, not physics, to render a decision as to whether or not the LHC is going to create black holes?

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

phil, omaha, ne — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 23:11:01 GMT

wow everyone is freaking out here. the collider will not kill us all. an even if it did, it would be an improvement to the earth. religion has destroyed our vaules and our planet. besides god never taught me how to spell either. even if the pro's make a mini-sucker. it would not have enough mass to hold together for very long at all. and at a mass of 2 protons (quite tiny for a black hole lmao!!!!) the gravity emitted by it would be less than a piece of dust. in fact tht same piece of dust would seem huge , huge , huge to tht mini black hole. so how bout we just continue comments about how bad my grammer and spelling is. cause you relig freaks are just killing us all with your god made it so i dont question. knowledge is power and it seems religion doesnt have the power to control the people ne more. so they have to destroy science. well who else do you fight when there is no one to fight you, thts right, the curious.

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Borlock, Seattle — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 23:26:30 GMT

Douglas - "the earth is not moving at light speed"

How is the earth not moving at light speed?

Everything in the universe is moving at light speed through either space or time.

Just depends on your frame of reference.

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Mark, Denver, CO — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 23:40:38 GMT

ROFL And what makes people and more special is... why are you bringing up 2012? The calander doesn't really end then. It starts over again for the new world. We've already been through 4 or 5 of them. Do your research before you flip out people. Jeeze.

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Bill — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 23:48:30 GMT

I'm sure there were many doomsdayers out there saying the world would end when we tested the first nuclear bomb.

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Mike, santa cruz, ca — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 23:53:15 GMT

is anyone here even qualified to speculate on any outcome or happenings???

The Bible is just a book, there is no science behind it. Just like any book it was written be men

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HetNet — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 00:00:52 GMT

And all that stuff about other radical concepts, like "fire" and "flight" should also have been avoided because of thier potential damage.

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Michael A. McKenney, Detroit, Mi. — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 00:44:25 GMT

I was hoping for a black hole to swallow the Earth.

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Jody Geiger, Chicago, IL — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 00:59:52 GMT

I consider myself very much for technology, but can find a loophole for consideration. Cosmic rays are moving at considerable velocities relative to the Earth or for that fact all bodies in the universe. Any microscopic black holes created by Cosmic Rays would to a high degree of probability leave the area of space occupied by the Earth in due time.

The question is, then, would any microscopic black holes produced by and Earth-stationary collider remain in the same space of the Earth over an extended period of time be a threat?

Given this consideration, a comparison to cosmic rays suddenly becomes less appropriate. Granted, velocities obtained within the collider should be significant enough to eject microscopic black holes from the Earth's vicinity and perhaps rule out this consideration. And in that light, I would remind others that a flat comparison to similar phenomena is only valid when the conditions are identical. I certainly hope the differences I have brought up were taken into careful review by the scientific community.

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Ray Kirk, Simi Valley, CA — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 01:10:01 GMT

The primary fallacy of most religions is their claim to know that which is not knowable. The nature of creation...the existence of an afterlife... and a myriad of other concepts about which there is no data. But this can also be said of the proponents of the LHC. The fact is, nobody knows. Period.

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Bob Estes — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 01:23:12 GMT

Douglas said:

"Now if you were to have two cue balls collide at the same speed and point, like what will happen with the protons at the Large Hadron Collider, the cue balls will collide and stay right where they collided, like the protons at the LHC. Nothing bounces away."

Douglas, I suggest you try this experiment with cue balls and report back. Where did you get such an idea? What happens to the kinetic energy? Run a couple of blobs of putty together and you have more of a point. The blobs will heat up if they don't bounce.

Blogging at onscreen-scientist.com.

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Loren, fullerton, ca — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 01:29:40 GMT

The report does not ignore the idea that a black hole created at slow speeds relative to the earth might be a problem. What it says (without offering any proof) is that some black holes created even with high speeds relative to nearby dense stars would have been stopped as they flew through those stars. Apparently some calculations indicate that if such black holes could be created and cause a problem, these stars should be disappearing into black holes, but that their demonstrated lifespans indicate that this is not happening.

It seems to me that if cosmic rays are passing through everything all the time in huge numbers, that head on collisions similar to what particle accelerators create should be happening near neutron stars. Since neutron stars aren't all being converted into black holes, it doesn't seem likely to me that there is much chance, if any, that there will be any problem.

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Robin Newport Oregun — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 01:53:00 GMT

Oh, like the scientists are going to tell the truth and ruin their chances of finding out what will happen! We don't have a choice but to wait and see...just like we didn't have a choice of going to war. So what does it matter...just wait and see where it takes us. We are only along for the ride!

I for one am putting in my order for my very own tiny black hole!

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Rich, Buffalo — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 02:02:06 GMT

this is all very confusing - should i get ready for the rapture? is there no god? will the value of my house go down even more? do i need plastic sheets and duk tape? - what a terrible state we is in

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James — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 02:31:44 GMT

Simple experiment: Open the drain in a full bath tub and
look at the shadow created by the vortex. Measure it the way you would a black hole. Oh no... what were we thinking.

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Neil, Madison, WI — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 02:38:45 GMT

@Borlock: uh no. Earth doesn't travel at light speed. Light from Earth does - but the planet itself doesn't. Otherwise we'd have some problems. (Light:299,792,458m/s vs. Earth: 67,000 MPH-ish I ball-parked it. Anyway not even close to light speed).

And *everything* moving through time at light speed depending on your frame of reference?" Also, no. Not unless you have a really interesting frame of reference that isn't in any way based on known concepts. Again, *everything* cannot move at light speed without some very serious and very noticeable problems in orbits, having daylight, etc.

@John: Expert witnesses will be produced by each side and will be cross-examined by their respective opponents. The court will make a decision based on the more credible evidence presented by each side. So the Judge will judge the case based on the strength/weakness of the arguments presented before her/him.

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Jeff, Ann Arbor, MI — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 02:46:41 GMT

Borlock,

You're right, but thats not convincing to Douglas or most people because they have no understanding of special relativity.

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Steve — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 03:36:00 GMT

It's all a simulation anyway

http://matrioshkaworld.blogspot.com/2008/05/general-relativity-as-proof-of-virtual.html

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Mark Wright, Melbourne, Florida — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 03:45:37 GMT

I seriously doubt that this machine will destroy the world, but even if it does, there would be no way to stop it, no place to go, and nothing left over, excluding a black hole. So, does the outcome really matter? the Manhattan Project was calculated to possibly immolate the globe with an unstoppable atom-splitting chain reaction, but they did it anyway. If the Hadron Accelerator succeeds, it will be a great stride ahead in our understanding of the universe. If it fails, nobody will be alive to argue the point. Everybody dies, and furthermore, you never know untill you try. And as for the mass-vs.-gravity points about the micro-black holes, to generate the required gravity to consume the earth, the black hole would need enough mass in the first place to start assimilating other particles, something that seems improbbable with a meass of two protons.

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Don, Onaway MI — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 03:53:34 GMT

Even if one were created, miminmal mass & gravitational effects. By most theroies, Hawking Radiation would cause it to evaporate in short order anyway.

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William Volterman, Hamilton, Ont, Canada — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 04:03:02 GMT

Borlock the Earth is not moving at the speed of light, space itself is expanding... that is not the same thing.

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micahel, san diego — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 04:18:03 GMT

what if it opens the door to a hostile world or another realm/dimension, where we have no way to close it and a creature/entity/being, bent on our destruction is accidentally released on earth.

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luis Villanueva, Pflugervill, TX — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 04:42:14 GMT

the machine itself can not not produce enough energy to build what you all conspiracy theorist are predicting about (black hole my A$$). Read more so so y'all clouded brain will help you realize or clear up y'all brain and understand about this collider.

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John Doe, Seattle, Wash. — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 04:48:15 GMT

All I have to say is that decades ago, scientists said smoking doesn't cause cancer. The point is no one knows for sure what's going to happen, because it's never been done before.

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Bob Walker - West Palm Beach, Fl — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 05:09:20 GMT

Learning and science is not always a bad thing - spending our tax money to do it is a sham. I hate to see us spend so much on this and not fund other important things like infastructure like bridges and roads and dams...

I am not too worried about black holes and the like. This is how we learn about them laws of the universe and physics. Yes we will make mistakes - we always do.
I am all of experimenting and science...

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Eric, Dublin GA — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 05:27:58 GMT

Jesus is coming, and is he pissed!

The end of the world is nigh!

Come on, look at the reality - we have discovered how many extrasolar planets now? If they see ours "wink out", maybe they'll get the idea about a population that became a planetary infestation, and destroyed itself, and the LHC is the least of our problems. If we get smart enough to meet other civilizations that might be out there, we should first learn to solve our problems at home, and not follow the beat of a drum that leads us into conflict.

Otherwise, we could be doing any extraterrestial neighbors that we may have a favor...

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Chance Callister, San Diego, California — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 05:28:32 GMT

phil i couldnt have said it any better myself! BRAVO! BRAVO!

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Keith Whitt, Chesapeake, Va — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 05:42:42 GMT

As much as science likes to predict the future and what might happen with any given experiment, it is impossible to do. If it were true that they could predict the outcome then there would be no reason to do the experiments. Any of the fields of study which involves predictions, such as economics, meteorology (which is probably the most accurate but still falls miserably short most of the time), etc., are all exercises in futility. Anything can happen. Most great discoveries come about by accident, not through predicted results. It is unsure whether the LHC will cause destruction or give us vast insights into the "god particle" or whether it will produce nothing of significance. Only the tests themselves will allow us to find out. Read The Black Swan: The Impact of the Highly Improbable by Nassim Nicholas Taleb to get a good grasp on just how unpredictable the future is and has been throughout history.

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Gary French — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 06:41:30 GMT

Black holes mystify 'even'the scientists.

I suspect that only a tiny bit about these oddities is known beyond theory. That leaves a lot of potential surprises to worry about. Harking back to the drama going on during the first atomic bomb detonation, I'd bet that the scientists involved at CERN have a lot more invested in faith than pure science.

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Patricia Shannon, Atlanta, GA — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 06:57:21 GMT

So, if you expect the end is coming, it means it's not!

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Timmy Two Moons Phoenix — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 07:21:01 GMT

Ok, ok. What would Jesus do. Would he flip the switch and turn the thing on? Of course not! His dad created the universe and he needs no fancy book learnin'. I'm no scientist and I'm not a believer in God, and from where I sit, there doesn't really seem to be any difference between the two camps on this. Both sides seem convinced with no lack of certainty that they are right. I'm pretty sure the religious doomsayers are wrong but ponder this... If the scientist are certain that there is no danger from this machine, it seems to follow that they are pretty certain of what this machine will produce and, if they are so certain of what this machine will produce, why are they spending upwards of 12 Billion USD to manufacture it? Their reasoning behind it is that it will unlock the mysteries of the universe. It seems that their justification for building it and their justification for turning it on are at odds with each other.

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W. Powell — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 08:11:46 GMT

Sakes, somebody at least google "Doctor Who" and "Omega" before attempting this sort of thing......

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Filipowicz, San Diego, CA — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 09:15:35 GMT

Isn't it an Einsteinean concept that as matter (any matter)approaches the speed of light, it's mass approaches infinite mass? Black hole....no problem. A chunk of protons of infinite mass.......problem, especially for those residing in Geneva.

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Joe — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 10:19:34 GMT

how can u say .... " oh, well the earth gets hit all the time by way more powerful stuff than the LHC"....???!?!?!?
r u serious
if thats ur opinion im glad u came out and said it just to prove u know nothing and now i can laugh at u
LHC moves partices at the speed of light
the sun does not shoot out particles that fast
but much much slower
and we have like the best of the best of the best of magnets maging a beautuful magnetic field to protect us... now we are speeding it up inside a lil tube.... when we knooooooooow that the summer are going to get much much hotters and the electrical blackout could shut down CERN caustion all the matter and antimatter and dark matter what ever is gonna be inside that monster of a sexy yet horrible scary machine... i just hope hey. when the coin is flipped... i hope it lands on life and no death

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nick — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 10:31:04 GMT

For God impossible, is a four letter word.

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nick — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 10:32:54 GMT

Remember, you can trust a lawyer ,more than a scientist to tell you the truth.

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PAUL L STRATTON SR MANCHESTER NH — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 12:11:35 GMT

WHEN AN IF THE WOLG COMES TO AN END IT WON'T BE BY THE HAND OF GOD BUT BY THE HAND OF MAN I WORRY NOT FOR MYSELF BUT FOR MY GRANDCHILDREN I SIT IN THE CENTER OF BALLANCE NOT KNOWING WHICH WAY TO LEAN I SUPPORT OUR GREAT SCIENTISTS WE HAVE TO MOVE ON THAT'S THE WAY WE ARE OUR LIVES ARE IN THE HANDS OF THE LHC AS WELL AS ANY OTHER WE DEPEND ON THEM LIKE WE DEPEND ON DOCTORS,CDC,POLICE,FIREMEN AND SO ON LET THE EXPERIMENT GO ON AFTER ALL WE ONLY KNOW ONE WAY TO MOVE AND THAT IS FORWARD WERE ONLY HUMAN GOOD LUCK TO ALL OF YOU AT THE LHC AND MAY GOD GUIDE YOU TO LEARN ALL YOU CAN AND NOT HARM US AGAIN GOOD LUCK

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JG, St. Louis, MO — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 12:58:24 GMT

I'm so tired of the uninformed bringing up the end of the Mayan calendar. That's not entirely accurate. It's actually the end of the Mayan Long Cycle, and doesn't specifically predict doomsday or the end of the world. This is not the first Long Cycle to end. We're still here. Conclusion: We'll be here after the end of this Long Cycle too.

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Frank Costello, New Brunswick, Canada — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 13:04:27 GMT

This experiment will shed light on the earth and universe, could create ideas for a new power source and most importantly give “yes” and “no” answers to physicists, which hasn’t been done in 50 years. The study of physics can now move on in old directions or new ones, that can change the human existence, and everyone is afraid of the end of the world. Without this experiment, the human race will be at this level forever, so what ever risk there is, it is worth it.

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George Hilltown PA — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 13:24:24 GMT

If we get a black hole....will it lower gas prices?

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GWS Perkasie PA — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 13:53:44 GMT

Paul van Gent Leiden: I personally would not call the MRI a 'no-return' for the money. I am also fairly sure that there are perhaps millions of others that can attribute that device to saving thier lives. You see, the MRI was made possible by the data collected from partical colliders

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Nate, Hartford, CT — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 14:02:14 GMT

As usual, what is conveniently ignored is WHERE the natural collisions tend to occur - at the outermost edge of the atmosphere, where mass is extremely dissipated, and if a mini black hole were to form it would not find enough mass to satisfy its appetite. But to deliberately create such conditions in solid rock, where a mini black hole would be born in front of a smorgasbord??

To compare apples and oranges in an attempt to make this big-money driven idea appear safer than it is is monumentally irresponsible, and anyone associated with pushing this project forward against the legitimate safety concerns of the entire planet should be arrested and jailed. They are extremely arrogant and dangerous.

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jon — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 14:04:08 GMT

How can anybody know that doomsday will NOT happen? How do 'they' have enough information to determine that it will not happen?
There are 3 things that can happen, it won't work at all which is highly improbable based on earlier verison of colliders; the results will produce some more interesting information of which to me if they could discern the state of 'big bang' before 1 to the -43rd of a second like even futher back to the -45th of a second that would be interesting; or the collider could start a massive reaction that destroys or alters the state of the universe which has a high probability of not happening.
So do it.

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Rob, Orlando, FL — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 14:18:12 GMT

People keep arguing about the cosmic rays hitting this planet, but we have the Earth's magnetic field protecting us.

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Black Hole Recycler — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 14:19:40 GMT

If it appears please have your recyclables separated, step forward, and deposit trash in proper black hole recepticle.

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George Martel — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 14:34:52 GMT

It will finally prove that the world is flat.

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Ronald Baro — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 14:45:23 GMT

I hope that the Gentlemen at CERN asked Gods' permission to fiddle with what he made. He doesn't want us to mess around with things we don't know about. Are we spiritually ready to be like him?? Thank God some scientists do believe in God. Like thos Astronomers, and Astrophysicists that were looking at the Image of the Big Bang and saw what looked like an imense large hand as if saying... Stop! go no further!!

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Jay — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 14:54:24 GMT

Fear will keep us in the dark and I think we have had enough fear in the past 100 years. Lets move ahead and see what happens and what other new question we may have.

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Brent Humber, Milton, Fl — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 15:15:01 GMT

Solar Panels work during the day, wind fans only work during wind, corn take months to grow and yeild low energy, we oil from our enemies. How dumb are we? The Holy Grail of energy of nuclear fusion. A God given example of how it work is 93,000,000 miles away. The collider will help work out the details. The anti-science want the world to stay dump and in confusion.

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Prophet of Truth — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 15:27:29 GMT

Rejoice! Give thanks to god for scientific knowledge!

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seek the truth — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 15:42:50 GMT

"It's the end of the world as we know it...

and I feel fine!"

PS.. two pool balls intersecting at equal ( perpendicular ) velocities will reverse their direction of travel, at equal velocity ( the original velocity minus a smidge ) They will NOT just sit there.

Try it.

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Bob Estes — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 15:43:53 GMT

Keith says "It is unsure whether the LHC will cause destruction or give us vast insights..."

Well, yes, but it's not really a coin flip. If we had good reason to believe it was going to wipe out the Earth, we wouldn't do it. If we didn't think it very likely to turn up the Higgs particle, at least, it would be hard to argue for the funding.

On the mini black hole question: Hawking evaporation is very plausible if not confirmed; mini black hole production is very speculative.

Blogging at onscreen-scientist.com

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Wabbit — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 16:35:13 GMT

This bites! I was really looking forward to all the molecules in my body exploding at the speed of light.

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Matthew, Virginia — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 16:37:40 GMT

Of course this is science fiction, but what if one of these tiny black holes does form and then starts accreating mass? The entire World would end, sometime after the black hole was created.
Or What if another deminsional Universe were made during the testing, and ripples throught the existing Universe--would all accidents, Wars, conflict and what not been caused by the development of another Universe baining upon this Universe?

Oh well, the Earth will end sometime...5 Billion years in the future when the Sun has grown to a red giant. So, life will be just a faded memory...a fossil of existance.

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Bryan, Dallas, TX — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 16:53:29 GMT

My old Mac computer, which for some odd reason sounds almost exactly like Stephen Hawking when it reads text, always starts acting up when something cataclysmic is imminent.

It's acting up, folks...

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george, livermore, california — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 17:27:12 GMT

The Hawking theory leaves an open ended question: probabilities can leave some wiggle room for the unknown. This can play a role of some consequence when dealing with a magnitude of universal significance. I urge caution, and I suggest moving in degrees rather than in quantum's

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S Nicholson, Irvine, CA — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 18:36:02 GMT

I've lived with a mini-black hole for the next seven years now. Eats only quarks (prefers Strange) and takes up no space (none ... really). Occasionally sucks up car keys and utility bills, screws with my alarm clock (boss will confirm); otherwise, peaceful and quiet. Nothing to fear folks ... really. Hey! Here it co

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Mike Maxwell, Laurel MD — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 19:05:28 GMT

I guess the cosmic rays striking the Earth are somewhat reassuring (although I don't know enough about them to evaluate this point). But one of the other points this report makes seems wacko:

"The universe as a whole conducts more than 10 million million LHC-like experiments per second. The possibility of any dangerous consequences contradicts what astronomers see - stars and galaxies still exist."

Right, but stars and galaxies are a bit sturdier than I am. I don't want to be within a thousand light years (and sometimes further) of some of those experiments!

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Snotbucket ,Okee FL. — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 19:18:24 GMT

A mini black hole , the people of Waste Management would love one. ( feed me Semor)

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Jim Lallier, Tulsa, Ok, It — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 19:21:37 GMT

If I can remember, once upon a time there was a man that said, "Everything had been invented that was to be invented." That's interesting. By stopping thought and interest in everything around us, keeps us stuck on this planet in this tribal warfare we seem to be stuck in. I say let's remove our heads from the sand, like our creator gave us the ability to do, and take the step forward and stop being stuck in fear that keeps us so tribal with OUR own silliness to kill each other. We have been given the ability to reason so use it. We might find there are like minded creatures in the universe aka next-door neighbors, that might decide to be friendly and can help break our ignorance. Like the old saying goes,"Ignorance is vincible." Get a life, smell the roses and quit worring. "Fear is the mindkiller."

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sheldon Kingston Ontario — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 19:32:08 GMT

i doubt anything bad will happen but we wont know till we turn it on just quit stalling and flip the damn switch

black hole... interesting, we all die getting suckied into a hole... not very fun, now opining an dimensional gat and relasing all kinds of monsters, and such would be lot better, even if they do whipe out humanity atleast its something we could fight against. as for all you zelots out there, maybe you should read your books again, then read the other guys books and realise they are all the same damn book, and fighting over it is a dumb thing to do

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Walt — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 19:38:09 GMT

Zealots Playing God! - 'The World is not Enough'
Nobel Prize hungry Physicists are racing each other and stopping at nothing to try to find the supposed 'Higgs Boson'(aka 'God') Particle, among others, and are risking nothing less than the annihilation of the Earth and all Life in endless experiments to try to solve theoretical problems when urgent real problems face the planet. The European Organization for Nuclear Research(CERN) new Large Hadron Collider(LHC) is the world's most powerful atom smasher that will soon be firing subatomic particles at each other at nearly the speed of light to create Miniature Big Bangs producing clouds of Micro Black Holes, Strangelets and other potentially cataclysmic phenomena.
The CERN-LHC website Mainpage itself states quote: "There are many theories as to what will result from these collisions,..." This stunning admission is because they truly don't know what's going to happen. They are experimenting with forces they don't understand to obtain results they can't comprehend. If you think like most people do that 'They must know what they're doing.' you could not be more wrong. Some people think the same thing about medical Dr.s but consider this by way of comparison and example from JAMA: "A recent Institute of Medicine report quoted rates estimating that medical errors kill between 44,000 and 98,000 people a year in US hospitals." The second part of the quote reads "...but what's for sure is that a brave new world of physics will emerge from the new accelerator,..." A molecularly changed or Black Hole consumed Lifeless World? The end of the quote reads "as knowledge in particle physics goes on to describe the workings of the Universe." These experiments to date have so far produced infinitely more questions than answers but there isn't a particle experimentalist physicist alive who wouldn't gladly trade his life to glimpse the "God particle", and sacrifice the rest of us with him.
This quote from National Geographic exactly sums this "science" up: "That's the essence of experimental particle physics: You smash stuff together and see what other stuff comes out."
For more information visit;
http://www.risk-evaluation-forum.org/anon1.htm
http://www.lhcdefense.org/
http://www.lhcconcerns.com
http://www.SaneScience.org/
http://www.LHCFacts.org
Popular Mechanics - "World's Biggest Science Project Aims to Unlock 'God Particle'" - http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/extreme_machines/4216588.html"

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Pablo — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 19:39:41 GMT

There is a mini Black Hole running the United States. Everything flows in but nothing of consequence flows out. We have so far survived.

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MrPex, Sacramento, CA — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 20:20:33 GMT

Maybe we'll get lucky and there WILL be some big disaster and it will wipe out a large part of the human population... you know, cull the herd a little.

Boy do we need it!

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Walt — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 20:35:29 GMT

CERN judging their own LHC is safe is like a drunk driver deciding he's all right to drive... with 6,700,000,000 passengers.
http://www.LHCFacts.org
http://www.LHCDefense.org
http://www.SaneScience.org

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Greg Wilson, Austin Texas — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 21:00:35 GMT

Colliding pool balls that stick together? Collisions at velocities greater than c? Douglas, you got a D in physics didn't you?

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Geekydude, Portland, Oregon — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 21:28:24 GMT

Douglas:

I recommend you perform your experiment and see what you get. The conditions of your premise is wrong in the first place.

They never said nor implied that the conditions of the cosmic collisions were with the earth itself. In case you live in an informational vacuum, there are more sources of particles traveling at light speed than our sun. There are countless stars and other phenomena that produce particles that travel at the speed of light (or faster). The sheer number of particles in our cosmos that collide with greater energy and intensity all around us would tell you that producing a collision resulting in a micro-black hole with a mass of two protons is NOTHING compared to the forces of nature we live within every moment of every day.

It is egotistical to think like mankind is so powerful compared to the nature of the cosmos in which we exist.

For the religious zealots:

I would only say that you should be ecstatic about the end of the world and the coming of the new heaven and new earth with God's kingdom. For then you would be living with him in a perfect world for eternity (If your souldis truly prepared!).

If I were you, I'd be cheering them on and hoping that it brings forth the end and ushers in the end of time!

For those who are curious and want to learn more about the make up of the cosmos:

I'd say this piece of science will be an exciting time of learning for mankind, and will likely help advance our knowledge to another level.

I for one am a Christian who enjoys science.
Jesus told use to fear not and to be children of light. In science there is no time at the speed of light, and therefore eternal.

God is a God of science and created us in his likeness. What does that tell you about the science of light and particle physics??? It says that these scientist are doing what they were created to do, and therefore one of the most Godly things they can do!

I wish Godspeed to the Scientists of CERN and those who utilize the LHC!

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Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 00:22:10 GMT

Joe.."LHC moves particles at the speed of light"

Not true. Only photons (Bosons) move at light speed.
Particles are fermions like the elements and ions.
It is not possible to accelerate particles to light speed.

I can't help but getting images as shown in Stephen Kings..The Mist. Scientists inadvertently opening up a window to a strange universe due to inexact understanding of universal physics...these images are just fantasy however.

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jj jjville ohio — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 01:36:00 GMT

well we will go out in a bang ;)

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allen whitman ma 02382 — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 01:37:55 GMT

if wee stop learning we stop advancing

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Rick B., Exit 7A, NJ — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 01:56:18 GMT

As Dave Barry might say, Subatomic Doomsday would be a good name for a rock band.

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Flakk, Houston Texas — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 02:03:35 GMT

"Sad news; I was hoping to use one of those tiny black holes to help me clean out my garage!"

No kidding. there goes the worlds answer to secure document shredding and where to store nuclear wast.

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Bob Estes — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 02:11:58 GMT

Thomas says:"Only photons (Bosons) move at light speed.
Particles are fermions like the elements and ions.
It is not possible to accelerate particles to light speed."

This is a little mixed up. The difference is between massless particles (like photons) and those with mass (like protons). There exist bosons with mass. In fact, observing experimentally the Higgs boson is one of the main achievements hoped for the new accelerator. Presumably the Higgs has not yet been seen in experiments for the very reason that its mass is so high.

Massless particles all travel at the speed of light. They can't help it. Those with mass can't quite get there but they can be accelerated arbitrarily close to the speed of light. Those colliding in the LHC can be said to move at the speed of light without being wrong enough to worry about, except for the basic principle.

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Greg, Irvine, CA. — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 02:14:05 GMT

We wont spend the money to cure diabetes which causes misery beyond description but we will spend twice as much to find the next piece of an endless puzzle that won't help anyone for hundreds of years.

Basic research in subatomics has long past exceeded in cost any benefits that make it worth while. These scientists need to get over their self importances and start looking into improving the quality of life for the people their leaching tax dollars from.

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Mikey, Anaheim, CA — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 03:08:39 GMT

You'll have to forgive me as I don't recall the author, but the speculation that something drastic will happen when we bring CERN up to full power was written about in a science fiction short story years ago. That story is exactly what the opponents are speculating will happen. It's as if they plagurized it, and filed it as their complaint. As near as I can recall the story has the supercollider "switching on", and all heck breaks loose. Not the destruction of the Earth mind you, but widespread devastation in pockets radiating out from the point of collision. Pure science fiction. I would have been more impressed if they chose a different "doomsday scenario".

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blank — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 03:58:55 GMT

The religious zealots do not represent the religious community as a whole. Obviously, not everyone who believes in a god claims to know when the end comes. the bible says man shall not know the day nor the hour. It is possible the end will come through the LHC, everyone should probably admit that.

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Yo Joe, So Cal — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 04:30:59 GMT

I'm kinda curious about the whole "black-whole-eating-up-the-planet" thing.Bring on the adventure! Besides, it may open up a portal to the future...or the past...or to the planet Vulcan. Sounds like a groovy experience, and I really don't have anything big planned.

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Brian, Pueblo, CO — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 06:39:34 GMT

So the world ends not with a bang, but a *pfzzt*. Anticlimactic, but at least it won't wake me up.

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RUBERT MERRITT-- KANSAS — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 09:44:42 GMT

GOOD OR BAD, WHATS THE POINT OTHER THAN TO GIVE THESE WANT TO BE MECHANICS SOMETHING TO DO OTHER THAN PUMP GAS.IT'S JUST LIKE THE BUNCH OF CON MEN WHO ARE LOOKING FOR A CURE FOR THIS OR THAT AN HAVE BEEN SEARCHING FOR 50 YEARS WITH NO SUCCESS BUT EVEN IF THEY FIND A CURE DO YOU THINK THEY WILL LET ANYONE KNOW AN LOSE THE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS THEY GET EVERY YEAR TO FAIL- I THINK NOT!!!!

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Joe, Norman, OK — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 09:55:01 GMT

Particle Physics is the single most basic type of physics one can do. Physics is the most fundamental of all sciences. At the root of all phenomana in the universe lies the ever (hopefully) clearer and simpler picture of the types of energy and mass that exist whitin the realm of very fast and very small.

Particle Physics, and the fundamentals of science it hopes to unlock, is the ultimate holy grail of our most basic efforts to understand the universe as completely as possible, hopefully one day in its entirety, or at least the part of it that can possibly be observed.

As such, to deny the monies and import of Particle Physics is to deny the import of basic science and the immense impact it has had on all of us since its inception. The invention of the wheel, the fulcrum, the light bulb and television, and even more modern phenomena like the desktop PC, Internet, high-speed wired and wireless communications, all serious advances in modern medicine and of course the constant march of technology in warfare all depend on basic research in all facets of science to proceed effectively.

The resson so much money and effort is spent on particle physics is that those in the ivory towers who are at the heart of prioritizing and in a position to understand, unlike the layman, the import of such research and its potential for amazing advancement in our understanding of so many other types of science, which it has already done to a large degree in so very many ways, and the incredible amount of knowledge and understanding and ultimately scientific and technological advancement that will most likely be gained by delving ever deeper into the fundamentals of the universe, cosmology, quantum physics and relativistic physics are basically doing their jobs well and with wisdom.

As to the point of "doomsday" - those scientists who worried about an uncontrollable chain reaction that would spell the end of the earth when they unleashed the atomic bomb existed in the mid forties. Many of the most important advances in physics in areas including quantum, relativistic, atomic and atro-physics have been discovered or understood much more fully after that time, which was a very early time in the period of this type of science. They simply suffered from fear of the unknown, which has been to a large extent allayed by our much greater understanding of the universe and such phenomena.

An earlier post already said it very well - much better than I do here - that there are forces in nature in the existing or past universe that we can just look at with a variety of astronomical devices that are so far in excess of the rather unremarkable forces to be unleashed by the relatively miniscule efforts of the most potent collider imaginable at this time that it is probably a mere nuisance and extraneous bother that theoretical and experimental particle physicists must go through to allay the fears of those who are not knowledgeable in their field of expertise, probably to the point of just plain ridiculous in their minds.

Our own Sun is a nuclear fusion blast-furnace within which are unleashed forces and phenomana quite close to us in astronomical terms that are so far in excess of this miniscule "burp" that the whole doomsday idea just seems to me utterly ludicrous.

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YD — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 10:46:31 GMT

LOL it will be like SpiderMan-2? The guy create a Sun <<<? And now tat LHC will maybe create blackhole >.< NO spiderman to help LOL

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Jeremy, Trenton, GA — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 11:56:34 GMT

I can prove that it won't cause black holes, no matter how much energy is used.

Its simple really.

A particle annilated in a collision, according to Einstein, and most of his work has been validated as much as it can be, is the famous formula, E=MC^2, where e is energy, m is the mass, and c is the speed of light squared.

Now, a black hole, if theorized, has at its center, infinite mass, and infinite energy (theorized), therefore, if both theories hold, and so far they have, then:

the E required in the collision of the particles, maxing at MC^2, would have to become infinite through some miracle. And if it does, then God does exist, because it's about the only way some particle will create a black hole.

[Alan adds: Sorry, but black holes have neither infinite mass nor infinite energy. The masses of black holes vary over a wide range. Nevertheless, I've approved this comment, as I approve most comments even if the science is wrong, for the sake of discussion.]

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Robert I. Marsh II — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 13:01:49 GMT

Any disaster scenarios, will reside within the ALICE Lead (Pb) Heavy Ion Collisions (once financed), scheduled to begin at full-power in 2009. ATLAS also provides heavy impact density. It would be these two (ALICE/ATLAS 2009), that can produce dense Plasma Waves, generating Gravitational Waves, Curvature within Space/Time; creating a Vortex Ring, and allowing a Compression Singularity to stabilize a Quantum Wormhole (Einstein-Rosen Bridge). Quantum Inverse Energy can create new magnitude density Plasma Waves, and the analogy of a Hyper-Cane appears around the Event-Horizon. The CERN LSAG Safety Report is not conclusive. JTankers' Blog has pointed to a Black Hole located inside the 'Safety Report', that you could drive a semi-truck through! There are 8 Billion reasons, for Michelangelo Mangano (and others) to have penned an expedited safety report. Right Now, CERN is grappling with multiple variance calculation paradoxes, and a finalized report (at this time)is ridiculous!!!

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J. Baxton Taylor — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 13:34:16 GMT

Don't forget to ADD the existing cosmic ray phenomena to the total of the phenomena produced 'per square millimeter' at the most concentrated resulting point of the experiments.

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Skillet, Hickory NC — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 14:54:45 GMT

These holes will be so tiny that they could pass through a 100 foot thick chunk of lead and never see an atom. I can't wait until they fire this thing up.

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BILL — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 15:00:59 GMT

The question is what do we need this nutty thing for no how?The world will end with cartoons in the sky with the end caption of dut dut dut thats all folks.

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Bender, New New York, New York — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 16:34:55 GMT

Were Doomed! DoOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED
~quote Bender

PS Bite my Shiny Metal Behind!

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Brian Tallahassee, Florida — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 16:57:47 GMT

Everyone needs to calm down and shut up, When either of you people criticizing these scientist, have the education that these scientist have then maybe, just maybe your opinion will matter to them or anybody else. How about first you become informed then try to sound like you know what you talking about when it comes to how the universe was created.

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Jane Sane — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 17:21:10 GMT

U R all wrong. This black hole will tear a hole in this dimension and another dimension will be sucked into this one (or vice-versa) and THEN we will have to learn to live with and deal with some unimaginable creatures from another dimension not to our liking. I know this because of my visions I have had---obviously I am not a scientist or any other "educated" fool---just your average "fool"-LOL!

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Scott, Augusta, GA — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 17:21:37 GMT

I cant wait! I want to use it to vacuum my house!

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jweyant,c-springs — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 17:59:03 GMT

let them do this...we need to more prodictive in the science field all ive seen from there in the past 10 years is a hard on pill let get some stations up and build a real navy.

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Crawford Tillinghast — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 18:44:21 GMT

Forget about this doomsday nonsense.
I want to see the science experiments behind "From Beyond."

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Bob Estes, Somerville, MA — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 18:54:44 GMT

Mikey recounts a story he read: "As near as I can recall the story has the supercollider "switching on", and all heck breaks loose. Not the destruction of the Earth mind you, but widespread devastation in pockets radiating out from the point of collision."

That is better than what I came up with in my similarly begun movie idea mentioned on my blog (Dangerous Experiments at http://onscreen-scientist.com/?p=5).

Quite a bit of hostility to particle physics research per se in these comments, which I guess shouldn't surprise me. Just keep in mind that physicists don't have power of taxation, and that all the countries involved in funding are democracies.

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Wayne Sirculomb — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 19:13:39 GMT

Douglas, isn't stationary something that Newton used when he could not think of anything better that would solve his bucket experiment. I believe that the two theories of relativity make stationary a bogus concept. I also would like to know what law of thermodynamics would be violated if the energy and matter levels in the LHC were to suck the entire Earth over its event horizon.

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JWilly48519 — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 19:20:56 GMT

Hey, anything can be productized...even unintentional black holes. For instance, they'd be the perfect convenient disposal means for high-level gamma-emitter nuclear waste, or complex toxic compounds containing heavy metals, or unwanted/unstable explosive materials and bioweapons, or just about anything that needs to be gotten rid of but is subject to NIMBY. And, they'd be great replacements for landfills in general. Just dump in the trash...boom, gone. Got a coal fired power plant that makes a few thousand tons of CO2 per year? Run the exhaust gases into the plant's black hole...presto, zero CO2 emissions. And all this can be yours for just a moderate one-time charge plus annual maintenance.

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Bob Estes, Somerville, MA — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 19:40:43 GMT

Tommy Two Moons says:"If the scientist are certain that there is no danger from this machine, it seems to follow that they are pretty certain of what this machine will produce and, if they are so certain of what this machine will produce, why are they spending upwards of 12 Billion USD to manufacture it? "

Whoa, Tommy, let's be logical. The experiment is not designed to test whether we can destroy the world by colliding protons. Consider this scenario involving exploration of Mars. Say some crackpot raises the idea that digging into Martian soil will cause an enormous explosion which could knock the planet out of its orbit and onto a collision course with Earth. The scientists say this is crazy. Would you say, "If you know that's crazy then why do you need to go to Mars?" No, the purpose of the scientific exploration of Mars has nothing to do with the crackpot theory. Same holds true for the LHC.

Blogging at onscreen-scientist.com.

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G. Williams, Phoenix, AZ — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 19:58:32 GMT

Two protons colliding at light speed may or may not cause strange or new particles. That's the point, I think, NO ONE REALLY KNOWS FOR SURE YET! Also, what might happen if there is another particle of some sort right in the path of the the other two? Might that create an even worse effect (like a three (3) car collison), the unknown particle will be squished and split and that could be just like an atom bomb or worse. There goes the billion dollar collider and all the smart scientists. Bye bye now. Or not! Who knows? Let them go at it and if they disappear, we can finally all say, YEP, something unexpected happened.

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Bryan, Eugene OR — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 20:43:14 GMT

Joe is right, who wouldn't want to be the last humans on Earth? At least we'd all know how we died out, and supposedly it stretches us all down to a single point? That would a fantastic way to go!

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Dylan, Seattle, WA — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 22:16:08 GMT

Why do people always worry about the end of the World? We're all going to die someday. Why worry about it now? Maybe it's because of selfishness or vanity... get over yourselves. I guess the end of the World can be big business!

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Hazmat339 — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 23:07:03 GMT

Who really cares if someone wipes out the planet in a moment of ignorance? I love a great many things but I am already dead. If I or they go away, that is existence in this universe. I say go for it and just let the world know BEFORE you press the 'start' button.

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James Hawk III — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 02:23:35 GMT

@Douglas -- if, perchance, two protons collide and form a black hole, that black hole will have a mass of--get this--two protons. So, if it exhibits a gravitational pull, it will pull with the gravity of--believe it or not--two protons. Just about everything else in the region will be going too fast to be affected by it. The lifetime of a black hole of mass 3.3 x 10E-24 grams is so low it's less than a Planck time, and that's a strong indication that such a thing can't even happen.

@Neil -- check your General Relativity again. The assertion c = SQRT(dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2 + t) is true. (This is why photons don't "feel" time; their lifespans are indefinite as long as they're moving at c.) The Earth IS moving at light speed in space/time--just not in space alone. Borlock qualified the statement to include time, and that is true.

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Rob W. — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 02:51:13 GMT

Remember folks..... there already is a black hole on Earth where everything gets sucked in.....it's called the U.S. Government.....

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Wayne, Nazareth, PA — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 03:00:21 GMT

A report cannot tell what happens when particles traveling at the speed of light collide. IT CANNOT!

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Delmar Fairchild, Barron, WI — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 03:38:44 GMT

Some people here need to seek help on the professional level when they hope the world will end today. Don't let them near a cliff.
Some people here need to seek help from their pastors so they better understand their religion and science.
Most people here need to understand more about black holes by reading more. Including myself.
Who can better define their cause than the 20 SPC members? Why should we not believe them? Who can a lawyer get that has better credentials and knowledge about what they are doing?
For those that wonder why we are doing this anyway --
We need to see if we can find the smaller particles beyond electrons, protons, neutrons. They are the key to all future understanding and a better life for us. They will show us how to be better at being humans.
Think of what the American Indians were saying for a thousand years. There are cycles to life, a web that holds everything together. The Earth, the sky, the four directions.
Objects revolve around something in a higher plane. An electron revolves around a nucleus, objects revolve around the sun. An object revolves around the earth. Objects of all types revolve around a black hole.
If those all occur, then some thing must revolve around inside the Electron, Proton, Neutron. By finding them, we will know that Infinity not only goes out to the whole universe, but starts from within the very smallest part of the whole universe. If you look at the Infinity sign ∞, then we are at the crossroads and there are circles for us to travel -- In both directions.
If we know about these things, then we were meant to fully understand them. God and scientists are partners. It is time those that believe in both show their appreciation for both.

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Adam Smith, Vancouver,BC — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 06:00:03 GMT

I agree with Borlock. If you are standing still and the earth suddenly moves away from you at light speed, are you moving at lightspeed or is the earth? What if the earth is still stationary in relation to space?
What if you are stationary in relation to space?
What if you BOTH are stationary in relation to space?
The Earth is orbiting around the Sun at about 110,000 kilometers per hour. Keyphrase: Around the sun
If you were to get the speed that we are moving away from the center of the universe (if the universe was only 3dimensions), it would be closer to the speed of light.
Wikipedia for the win.

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John Doe, Seattle, Wash — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 06:46:36 GMT

... i dont think i saw a single comment here that wasnt flawed in its logic or relatedness to the topic. what ive noticed recently is that adults are truely like the children they once were. sure, they have more "valuse" and "morals" and they have usually changed to fit society. the fact is the whole thing is flawed i mean really read these comments and really look at what is being said and how. from curses to talk about prophetical doom (and to those people that say "sure it will end so whatever", you dont really think that, you either dont believe it or you are simple deying your feelings on the matter. i have gotten off point. this is silly! no one knows what will happen so just sit back and relax, if they turn it on then they will if not then they wont. if the world ends, then it will if not then it wont. there is no point arguing when even the experts arent sure. and i agree with some of you on the point that their defense the LHC is based on 1 or 2 main points that in themselves are not solid, tested, known truths. now i sound like one of you and thats sad. this comment is messy so i will summarize it:
1. there is no way to know what will happen so stop arguing you just look bad.

2. the expert's defense is flawed and unstable.

3. adults NEVER grow up, children become teenagers which are just expanded version of the child with the same flaws and traits but with more rights and resposibilities where these traits show. then teenagers becom "adults" over time but there is really no change. they have just learned how the world works and have adjusted to it but in fact the whole world is just as flawed and insecure as they are!

people please grow up!

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Concerned, Spokane, WA — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 09:24:23 GMT

Declaring themselves to be wise, they became as fools and erased God from their knowledge. As someone who has stood at the edge of death and eternity, I have learned that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

I admire the tenacity and brilliance displayed in these arguments, even the humor. The LHC isn't scary, though. I tremble for those who will, like a man I witnessed, cry out from a hole both black and unreachable, a reward waiting for those who have turned their backs on the Holy Spirit.

Think again.

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JTankers — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 10:01:25 GMT

Before we accept the report as the "final word", lets recall that this report HAS NOT been validated outside of CERN yet!

And CERN has not even fully validated the report. The primary argument is characterized as NOT CONFIRMED by the SPC Committee!

CERN's SPC committee on the LSAG safety report Neutron Star argument "but this argument relies on properties of cosmic rays and neutrinos that, while highly plausible, do require confirmation, as can be expected in the coming years."
(http://indico.cern.ch/getFile.py/access?contribId=20&resId=0&materialId=0&confId=35065)

One of the problems with the cosmic ray theory of safety is that (as the LSAG report confirms), if cosmic ray impacts with Earth could create neutral micro black holes, they would all travel harmlessly through Earth at nearly the speed of light.

No paper has been written that I am aware of the argues in detail why a cosmic ray particle impact with Earth must create a micro black hole just because a head on collider, colliding tightly packed groups of thousands of protons or Lead to Lead Nuclei head on in powerful magnetic fields might create a micro black hole (and one at low speed that might be captured by Earth's gravity).

An initial review of the report is available at: http://www.lhcfacts.org/?cat=99

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Paul Mundt, Corvallis, OR — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 12:37:18 GMT

Carlin had the right idea and exited stage left before this thing possibly creates the anti big bang!

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tahmkat3d, Rogers, ND — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 13:20:37 GMT

After the Manhattan boys failure to fireball the Earth on the first try they reasoned that hydrogen would really have a darn good chance to do it, so they lit one off at Bikini Atoll and the damed thing wouldn't fireball Earth either. Idiots don't destroy things, it takes science. Abolish education, make the scientists,academics,engineers and all learned get jobs in the service sector and do SOMETHING for the benefit of humankind, beat satellites into plowshares and quit wasting money, if the moon isn't made of green cheese, it might as well be. 40 yrs since last energy crisis and not one damed improvement from any of you!!! Shame....

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Brad Seidl — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 13:48:54 GMT

Mike
The Bible may not be the only book written by man but it's the only one inspired by God.

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j may — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 14:35:01 GMT

I think these comments are scarier than the collider.

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Joseph P. Uhl — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 14:36:34 GMT

I agree whole heartedly with Mr. Stevens from Eugene Or., the pathologicaly religious of this planet have been spewing forth this crap since they invented God! They care more about an imaginary paradise than this REAL LIFE on earth! and don't you dare get in their way or you will be called every thing under the sun that they claim Jacob reportedly stopped in it's orbit! There is a science teacher in Mt.Vernon Ohio that not only displays the bible,but also has the 10 commandments posted on the classroom wall.He has also burned into some students skin a cross with an electrostatic device, a few of the students were unaware that he was going to burn a cross onto them when they volunteered. When these students protested they were admonished by the teacher as being godless! Not only has Mr. Freshwater(chuckle!) violated the seperation of church and state in various ways but has continualy upheld his "God given right to do so!". But the most heinous ignorant statement yet is his claim that he has proclaimed to all his SCIENCE students that all SCIENCE books are wrong because the coul not be proven FACTUAL by the bible! How STUPID can these people be? that question gets answered daily when Mr.Freshwater and his ilk speak! The supercolliders are as safe as any microwave oven in your house! unless you explode a spud in it! Put down the bible and start reading books with things called FACTS in them and this world will be a better place for all of us!

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John, Fairfield, IA — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 15:02:08 GMT

It seems unlikely that the worst will happen. But if it does, those last few seconds will be one hell of a ride!

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j h, cleveland — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 15:21:29 GMT

Why slander Von Neumann? He was a genius not a savant. Relatively normal social life, married,one child, drove a car, poorly. 150 publications. Multiple professorships. That was just an ill-informed statement.

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Software Developer, Bethesda, MD — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 15:37:48 GMT

I often wonder if the end of the Mayan calendar is rather like the whole Y2K debaucle. Ancient mayan "engineers" didn't think they'd need to develop a calendar that extended longer than 2012--they assumed a new calendar would be in use by then! :)

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Phil of the Future, Neo York, USE — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 16:50:08 GMT

John Doe: Smoking DOESN'T cause cancer, viruses do. Smoking just weakens your lungs' defenses.

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Ron Russman, Oxford, PA — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 17:07:36 GMT

Help me here, I confess I'm thinking outloud. I'm an ex USN NUC qualified enlisted type. I've watched the progress of nuclear physics since I got out in 1974 and am amazed at all the particles the've identified since. I understand the K effective formula and the mass defect formula (E=MC2) and once calculated that our sub used about 5 grams of Uranium in 3 months for fuel. These energy levels are God-like. I was told that upon the threshold of creating the first Uranium chain reaction, the scientists weren't sure they could stop the reaction from consuming the planet. Let's face it, they're doing it again. If they are correct, maybe I'll get that flying car in my garage and cheap unlimited energy, if not, I guess there won't be any complaints...

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Kristin — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 18:14:04 GMT

"Now if you were to have two cue balls collide at the same speed and point, like what will happen with the protons at the Large Hadron Collider, the cue balls will collide and stay right where they collided, like the protons at the LHC" -Douglas

What Physics are you using here? Not the Physics that govern this planet. The two cue balls would bounce directly away from each other. Newton's law of Motion states, "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction." If the cue balls did not bounce away then they would have to explode to release their energy. I'm not saying that there is no reason to be concerned but you have to get the science right. Which means most of us only have uneducated opinions and those opinion don't mean much. I don't want to see the world destroyed fast or slow. My personal opinion is the slow method we've been using is far more real and dangerous then this fast one.

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chris — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 18:18:25 GMT

"The Protons in the LHC are traveling at each other at light speed till they collide, which is not happening in nature."
Duh, yes they are.

[ALAN ADDS: As I understand it, protons cannot travel at light speed, in the LHC or elsewhere, otherwise they would have infinite mass. In the LHC they travel at relative speeds of up to 99.999999 percent of the speed of light.]

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Alex, Lenexa, Kansas — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 19:13:58 GMT

Maybe we can kill two birds with one stone here. Perhaps the LHC will create a Black Hole that will suck up all the religious nuts, leaving the rest of us to carry on and learn and grow, while sending the nutties to their "rapture" they so desire. Ohhh to dream...

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Thomas W. Stevens, Eugene, OR — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 19:18:00 GMT

My prediction:

The world will not end until Darth Vader arrives with the Death Star V. III.

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Matt, Burlington, MA — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 20:54:17 GMT

I know that the doomsday speak is all sad paranoia, and shame on you who speak up about scientific issues when you are nearly clueless on the matter, but I have some little questions I want answered: what is so exotic about a magnetic monopole on the subatomic scale? Is an electron not a magnetic monopole? Is a proton not a magnetic monopole? If not, what distinguishes a magnetic monopole?

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reece powell odin IL — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 21:31:22 GMT

12 21 12...not the end of life...the end of the cycle... the end of ignorance and hate...the begining of peace love and understanding... the begining of the noosphere the begining of noocracy...we are all metaphysical beings evolution is near be ready

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Danny Bolerjac,k Carthage NC — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 21:49:56 GMT

you people are all morons the fact is it's happening and even if it does mess something up it doesnt matter the truth is we are humans and as humans we have the right to destroy whatever we want be it a pile of trash or a whole planet.... We've been doing it since the beginning of our reign as this planets highest being. We are a parasite and there is no need to fear anything because the truth is were all doomed one day nothing you can do about it except for brace yourself and hope youve found joy in your existance on this earth.

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Frank Glover Rochester, NY — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 21:57:07 GMT

"If you COULD make a stable black hole it'd be one hell of a research tool."

You might like Larry Niven's short story 'The Borderland of Sol' (set in his Known Space universe)

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James F — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 23:38:56 GMT

"I find the religious zealots fascinating, not because they bring anything to the table, but rather that they pretend to know, with great passion and certainty, when the end of the world will come, which is based solely upon a book of fairy tales."\

Too true my friend, too true. We scientists base our theories on REALITY and physical observable phenomena.
If I, as a scientist, were to approach you, and tell you the world was going to end because my great great great grandfather (a thousand years ago, or something) wrote a book saying that the world was going to end if we discovered how to make light appear from thin-air (i.e. light bulbs) would you take it as fact, or fiction.

It's simple really, the bible, is a--fairy tale, nothing more. The fact that it was written many centuries ago...it's age...does not lend credence to it's argument. The bible is based around social principles (i.e. morals) that have root causes in our chemical brain-structure (of which Jesus and his apostles did not know of). Social Principles (and the underlying brain structure), while possibly good thing to follow in your social life, have nothing
to do with physics. The tales in the bible our largely fiction, or else fact much exaggerated...they are written to illustrate points on social principles, nothing more...

As for the Mayan calender, the reason it ends 2012 is because by 2012 (from the date of the invention of the Mayan calender) astronomical bodies would have changed (i.e. positions, velocities, etc) significantly, making accurate predications beyond that point all but impossible (until our current advancements in astronomy). Also, 2012 was associated with the end of the world AS WE KNOW IT--not a complete end. The Mayans believed the world would experience a spiritual awaking or some hogwash like that.

Finally, there is no possible way we will create a stable black hole for several reasons. 1) A black-hole...to exist, requires a constant, and exponentially-growing amount of matter to fuel it. 2) It requires a specific mass just to begin the *process* of "gobbling-up" other particles. 3) The chamber it would be contained in is nearly absolute zero, airless, and sterile. It would remain stationary, unable to obtain fuel, and we would get to witness a breif, but beautiful microscopic explosion as it vaporised from lack of fuel.

And as to whoever mentioned the film, I have see it friend. The *WHOLE* UNEDITED version, no-where do I see anyone cowering in a corner or sucking their thumb, please stop fear-mongering.

Last but not least, the reason the two particles merge to begin with is by virtue of mutual gravity. Normally, they can not come within sufficient orbit of each other to be trapped by each other's gravity (at that range, the nucli would merge). But when each is traveling at light speed, relativaly speaking, they are moving compared to the collider equipment (but not to each other) Essentially the nucli merge without moving relative to each-other at all.

Thus the collider provides relative translation of the
particles positions, because the collider has a different vector (close to nil) as compared to the particles. Theoretically, if we were to take a box and fill it with iron atoms, and trap them in a ultra-strong magnetic field and heat them to thousands of millions of degrees (and the particles were separated by light-years within the box)...the nucli would still merge.

Essentially all the iron atoms would be resonating at the same frequency. Does this present the possibility of a min-black hole resonating with other black-holes
in the universe and thus creating a link to said black holes? (allowing matter transport between the two), possibly. Of coarse I'm just an armchair scientist, and most of what I said is hypothetical.

Which brings me to *ANOTHER* point. Religious Zealots, and the Jesuit-Cult seem to think everything is set in stone >> see the ten commandments (snickers), when in fact *nothing* is set in stone. No scientific FACT can be proven. But hell, the bible's just as bad...if not worse. The only proof the bible has is "Eye-witnesses"...and the susceptibility of humanity to fallacy is enourmous....eye-witness reports are not *hard* evidence...matter of fact, I would hardly call them evidence at all.

Which some would say is a contradiction because we rely on SITE to confirm all our experiments. The difference between scientific experiments though, and religious experiments is that the parameters (the tools, procedures, and materials used) when applied in a scientific experiment, should yield success (i.e. the replication of purported phenomena in similar experiments) or else failure (i.e the failure to replicate the phenomena purported by earlier experiments.)

This is a logical structure for determining whether a hypothesis (essentially an educated guess derived from brief observation or calculation applied using knowledge already known...including the scientific method) is "True" or "False". Of coarse a hypothesis is never an absolute...it can only be more or less true. It can only be accepted as the best possible answer (not nessacarily the correct one), and so becoems a theory. Some theories have so much evidence,
and supporting data behind them that they are almost universally accepted by scientists as "True" or "Fact". But we call theories...theories...because you never know what new knowledge will crop up disproving them...thus to truly call them fact, would be a logical fallacy insofar that all theories are based on observation and no matter how controlled, their may be factors we do not understand, or know about. Thus we can not be 100% sure we are absolutely correct, because (as I've pointed out before) we are are the ones observing...and we all know how error prone humans can be.

I hope I've helped to clear up some of the ignorance about science, what it is, and what's going on at CERN. Thank you for your time

-Jim

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Lindsay, Toronto, ON — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 00:33:07 GMT

I must say, I'm kind of scared that people are making black holes. There are some forces that nothing should fool around with and I think that this is one of them. What if they make a mistake or underestimate the power of those microscopic black holes? It's those kind of things that scare me.

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leon de ponce, Ponce, Puerto Rico — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 01:43:22 GMT

All I can say is that I'm hoping that these guys don't mess up the earth more than it is right now. And as for those who believe that the world will end on 2012, I suggest that you prey that you're wrong, but just in case enjoy life while you can. You never know when you'll die. As for me I'm sorta looking forward to seeing the results of this whether they're good or bad.

Good luck to the guys at CERN and please don't mess this up may God be with you.

P.S.: if I made any grammar errors feel free to correct me

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James Tankersley Jr, Middleton WI — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 02:30:04 GMT

So the good news is that CERN's SPC Committee validates CERNs safety report that deems the LHC Collider safe!... As we all expected. But the small disclaimer is a bit concerning to me...

"... this argument relies on properties of cosmic rays and neutrinos that, while highly plausible, do require confirmation, as can be expected in the coming years."

And the Large Hadron Collider is expected to begin collisions in the coming months, not the coming years...

Is it still possible that micro black holes might be to weak to eat dense "Neutron food"?

Or is it still possible that the unique conditions in high energy colliders might create micro black holes while a single cosmic ray collision might not?

Could the several PHDs and Professors of Math and Physics that refute the certainty of Hawking Radiation still be correct?

"no compelling theoretical case for or against radiation by black holes"

Could Dr. Otto Rossler's math be correct?

"...after 50 months the earth to a centimeter would have shrunk. It would be nothing more there, not only no more life, there but also the earth would be... a small black hole.

I can't tell you there is no risk either, but I can not assure you that this is perfectly safe. I think it just might be perfectly dangerous.

Have you read what a growing list of credible scientists are saying at LHCFacts.org?

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Allen Meyer, Sayreville, NJ — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 04:03:27 GMT

This is a risk/reward conundrum. Ultimately we all make decisions based on the risk compared to the reward. In this case the reward is more knowledge about theoretical and applied physics that may or may not lead to breakthoughs man can use. The risk (and some have placed it as high as 10%) is total destruction of the planet and over 6.6 billion of us by possible strangelets or creation of a black hole and and resulting unknown fate. It seems to me the risk FAR outweighs the potential benefits to the point of recklessness. With the stakes so high, even a .000000001 risk should be deemed unacceptable. Heck, the odds of winning the Mega Millions lottery is 1:173,000,000 and there is always a winner sooner or later. Don't play the lottery for me and mine, thank you.

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Des Emery, St.Thomas, ON, Canada — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 06:18:45 GMT

Douglas, and others - protons are not cueballs, the LHC is not a pool table, and the operators of CERN are not a bunch of fear-mongering hucksters.

If those cueballs were made of glass (instead of "ivory") they would shatter each other. If they were made of rubber, they'd bounce. If they were made of magnetic steel, they'd stick together.

Protons are not made of glass, rubber or steel. They will behave as protons, collide on command, and mutually produce a variety of other particles, perhaps including a boson. We'll get a lot more knowledge out of the collision, and take another step forward.

BTW, the Bible does not attempt to teach humans about physics, biology, geography, or musicology. But most of us could learn a lesson or two about things like "Who is my neighbour?" "Am I my brother's keeper?" and "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."

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Bubba, Georgia — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:37:58 GMT

'christian,' I'm sure you don't think people should be allowed to sue every time they disagree with someone's interpretation of the universe. How about I sue you and make you stop praying until a court decides if your prayers could conceivably do harm to the fabric of the universe? Do something about that arrogance; pride is a sin. You are not guaranteed salvation.

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Bob Estes, Somerville, MA — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 00:35:44 GMT

It's been interesting to follow this series of comments, to which I have contributed a few. I decided to try to categorize them, and I hope to present the results of my (obviously subjective) analysis in my blog in a couple of days, along with some discussion of the actual issue and how it's being handled.

Just in case anyone else wants to play the game, I'll give you an idea of what I mean. I haven't finished refining this rather laborious analysis, which will give the number of comments falling into each category, but here are a few categories that are well represented (some comments fit into more than one):

Humorously intended end-of-the-world comments.
Humorous comments about the usefulness of a mini/micro black hole.
Comments that use the topic to present an unrelated political point.
Comments that use the forum for antireligous statements.
Comments that use the forum to attack particle physics funding per se.
Comments that make erroneous, inadequate, or unclear attempts to correct the physics mistakes of others.
Comments that mention the Mayan calendar.
Comments that advance the view that physicists have risked and continue to risk destroying the world with reckless experiments and tests.

And there are some categories that include actual discussion of the specific report on the safety of LHC experiments.

Blogging at onscreen-scientist.com.

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James Tankersley Jr, Middleton WI — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 10:49:00 GMT

I am not sure what SPC Committee chair Enrique Fernandez and coordinator Fabio Zwirner are arguing.

The 2008 LSAG Safety Report argues that the planet will not be destroyed by micro black holes based on empirical evidence from neutron stars that relies on properties of cosmic rays and neutrinos, that the SPC Committee validates as highly probably but requires confirmation.

Are Enrique Fernandez and Fabio Zwirner arguing that the properties of cosmic rays and neutrinos prove safety from micro black holes created by the Large Hadron Collider, but are only highly probable and require confirmation with respect to micro black holes created from higher energy colliders?

Is the argument that the Large Hadron Collider will prove safety from micro black holes when it begins operations and nothing bad happens, but that future higher energy colliders will not have empirically proven safety yet?

I would prefer that confirmation of safety happen prior to operation of the Large Hadron Collier.

Thank you, James Tankersley Jr Co-Admin, LHCFacts.org

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Louis Snyder — Sat, 28 Jun 2008 00:42:18 GMT

To me the report plainly states natural cosmic events far exceed the effect of those in the collider. In other words stop worrying and smell the roses.

Louis

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Paul, Concord, California — Sat, 28 Jun 2008 01:18:01 GMT

Something I don't hear too often, if there was a possibility of destroying the earth with the LHC, don't you think the people involved with the LHC's operation (who number well into the thousands) would care and be concerned? Don't they have hopes for the future and families too?

Why is it that the most uninformed people always raise alarm to that which they understand the least? Ignorance or is it attention seeking maybe?

And I challenge John Doe to find a report by a doctor who was not in the pay of a tobacco company that actually said smoking is not harmful. Come on man, that's a straw man argument and is not relevant here.

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kyle — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 18:18:47 GMT

i read that it will create tempreratures 2x hotter then the sun but according to scientists earth cannot cope with such heat.

[ALAN ADDS: Some of the collisions in the LHC will result in temperatures billions or trillions of times hotter than the sun, but this is only on a subatomic scale, and there will be no effect on Earth. Remember, the magnets themselves around the beamline are cooled to 1.9 degrees Kelvin, which is about as cold as it gets in outer space.]

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lil kevin — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 19:38:28 GMT

but think about it.. if these scientists are successful what would be the outcome? what are all the benefits for humans? mabe if they could take apart an atom theu could put it back together.. mabe they will be able to beam people up like in star trek.. technology, science and change are a part of us. i believe... we are meant to go the distance.. think about this: god made us in his image. wouldnt god be the greatest scientist of all? and if we were made in his image would it be wrong to follow gods steps of creation? ok here is a random thought cause im like so high right now.. what if we failed and created these black holes that opened to another dimention and outside these black holes came the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse?? or even satan came thru the black hole. or what if the black hole just sucks the world inside of it and brings us somewhere else.. hhahaha ok bye.

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Allen Meyer, Sayreville, NJ — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 01:54:27 GMT

In reading the 2008 report, it seems to me the report still relies upon the theoretical, and as yet UNobserved effect known as Hawking Radiation, as the safety net against a black hole lasting long enough to begin taking on mass enough to grow. As I understand, isn't a satellite called GLAST supposed to be launched soon that would be able to detect "Hawking Radiation and confirm whether it actually exists? If so, (and scientists are relying on Hawking Radiation existence) then shouldn't LHC be delayed until this satellite has has sufficient observations to confirm that the safety net relied upon in fact exists? Prudence would seem to demand delay where the stakes are SO high.

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John Doe,Seattle, Washington — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 20:19:39 GMT

The world did end when we tested the first nuclear bomb we just haven't realized it yet

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JIM DELPHI IN — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 19:29:47 GMT

IS THE WOULD REALLY GOING TO END IN 2012 OR COULD IT NOT END ?

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Lola Baker, Winston-Salem North Carolina — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 10:36:51 GMT

That's our probelm in world today trying to play God. Can you really say if they start this machine it wouldn't cause no harm to the earth. NO HELL NO because a scientist say it wouldn't do no harm to the earth. Because he wants to make a name for his self and go down in the historys book. Come on people send money and time on gobal warning instead of messing with stuff you don't know anyhing about.We have did enough to our planet aready.How much more can it take.

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Del, Bellingham WA — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 21:45:58 GMT

Why do all these comments remind me of a couple of scenes from the movie "Contact"? People have been predicticting doomsday/end-of-the-world scenarios for centuries, then the fateful day arrives and nothing happens. These idiots got to me ONCE when I was a kid, then I learned my lesson.

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Don, Winchester, Va — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 00:42:13 GMT

If the earth really were moving at the speed of light, wouldn't we all be a bunch of really fat dudes that didn't look a day over 0?

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Sick of silliness — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 02:24:08 GMT

This fear is stupid. The masses they are dealing with are incomprehensibly small. These types of particles have lifetimes measured in trillionths of a second. There is no way a "chain reaction" could initiate. To put it in perspective, it would be like rubbing two cellulose molecules (tiny sticks of wood, so to speak) together to start a fire. Not exactly likely.

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russ, baltimore,md — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 11:35:19 GMT

10 billion dollars to play god.

i say fire it up. things on earth aint so great that we cant take a chance.

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Michael Music, Tampa, Florida — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 14:04:15 GMT

Ok first off, I beleive science should have it's limitations. Ever stop to think just because we can do something, that we should?

Starters i'm relgious, and i'm not saying the end of the world is coming, but i'm also nto stating it's not. For those who say the bible is just a book fo fairytales, your wrong. You cna beleive what you wish, but do not undermine nor dis what other poeple beleive in. Only one force in the entire universe knows when it's going to end, no one else does and no one else will.

secondly, I honestly feel that if this works, fine we dodged a bullet and were learning something, but did they really sit down to think about if they should do this at all? Thats what I really don't like about science. It throws out everythign about religion andf has to prove that what is beleived is untrue or semi true. They must also delve into things that are possibly out of their hands and could go wrong regardless if they feel it's safe.

Besides, shouldn't we all finish discovering things on our planet first before looking into space?

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Dennis - Chicago, IL — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 16:00:53 GMT

Did anyone ever consider that all the other black holes in the universe were once research laboratories with LHC experiments gone wrong?? THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!1!

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

John Smith — Sun, 10 Aug 2008 14:52:24 GMT

One wonders how far humanity would like to push their luck, even if nothing significant happens. Is all this really necessary when there are so many other problems in the world?

As usual this will all end up on the web and encourage some madperson somewhere to push everyone's luck without even debating offering it up for debate.

The universe is a very violent and dangerous place. Let's not forget that.

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 20:41:20 GMT

James Tankersley Jr Co-Admin, LHCFacts.org, concerning MBH production wrote, “I would prefer that confirmation of safety happen prior to operation of the Large Hadron Colli(d)er.”
I took a look at your site, not unimpressive. I didn’t check for it exhaustively, but did fail to find anything about collisions inside a star. You (your site generally) dismiss MBHs that may be created by cosmic rays striking the earth (or surrounding) or other planets because the really fast cosmic rays would result in MBHs having such velocity that they would leave planetary proximity prior to performing any damaging acts. You state a degree of fear that the LHC would produce a MBH at relative rest to earth. High energy cosmic rays strike the earth from all angles without any pronounces concentration. That is, they move randomly throughout the solar system, at least. This would mean that they must strike each other, at least occasionally. Some of these strikes must duplicate what is to be seen in the LHC, therefore if MBHs are to be created at relative rest, they must have been created at relative rest within our solar system, as well as countless other, over vast time. Being at rest they would be gravitationally pulled toward some body. While it is possible that gravitational acceleration toward the sun could result in orbital speed as it passes a planet and it gets caught harmlessly in orbit, the odds are greatest that it would be produced outside the planetary plane and continue into the sun, or, if planets were involved at all, that it would fall into a planet, not burning up in it’s atmosphere. If stable MBHs can be produced, surely they have been, and have fallen into the sun, which has not been swallowed up by them.
It seems to me that our star, as well as countless others, should be your confirmation of safety and quell your fears. To not accept this you must say one of the following:
1. There is no high energy cosmic particle radiation.
2. This radiation exists but does not hit under conditions similar to those at LCH.
3. The radiation does exist and does collide under conditions similar to those at LHC, producing the feared at rest MBH, but …
My questions to you:
1. Do you hold the nonexistence of high energy cosmic particle radiation?
If the answer is yes, then ‘nuff said. You’ll be dismissed as any other moron with a pat on the head and a jelly bean.
2. Do you hold that this radiation exists but does not collide as in the collider?
If the answer is yes then please, for my benefit, explain how it would always miss.
3. ?
If you go with #3, please finish the but with something credible. Explain how the many MBHs that would have been created in every system have not reduced every system into black holes, but it would still happen on earth.
4. ?
Maybe I missed something. Perhaps you can explain away this natural occurrence some other way. Please do so.

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

craig mason 17, leighton buzzard, uk. — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 21:33:45 GMT

i dont mean to sound stupid here, but i thought a black hole could only form if their was enough matter. suns collapse into black holes. how can two streams of protons hitting each other have enough mass to do that? sus are made of atoms. protons have very little mass, so how could it be possiable?

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 17:55:39 GMT

Craig Mason,
This is a different animal. A black hole exists any time gravity is sufficiently concentrated. The "normal" way is by putting together a lot of mass. The "different animal" way is to shrink a small amount of mass impossibly small. For any mass there is a radius where a black hole would occur. For a normal black hole we talk about removing the empty space out of the atoms, the space between the nucleus and the elctron cloud. For MBHs we have to talk about taking the empty space out of protons and such. The radius for a MBH is far, far, far, far, far smaller than the smallest measurable particle. Bear in mind that until very recently we had no way to measure subatomic particles, before that we had no way to measure atoms. Maybe, just maybe, all elemental particles have physical form and discrete size. Then maybe, just maybe, with enough energy we can squeeze the empty out of a proton.

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Pete Krohn — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 04:22:34 GMT

gosh darn, even if they do find the answer to the last question, they will just create more questions. this thing is just another money hole, a plaything for smarty pants people with nothing else to do. or maybe they can solve species extinction with the results, NOT!

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Laura,Sheffield,England — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 11:19:34 GMT

It Is astupid idea to put the world at risk!!!!

i hate them... im so damn scared and cryng my eyes out!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Heather - Ft Knox, Ky — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 03:45:23 GMT

They probably won't let this comment through but I will try just for kicks.

I disagree with this project. I might be religious but I am not a empty headed zealot with an IQ of 10. I have the brain power to realize this was a huge waste of money but that is what government is best at so I am not suprised. There are dangers to this test. Will the benefits outway those risks. I doubt it. I do not think they care about the risks as long as they can prove they are infallible and all knowing. This is a test in arrogance and little if nothing they learn will have a real benefit for the rest of us. If all these things happen already in nature they should have saved money and studied it there. If there happens to be a few real world benefits that would have been worth the effort.
I also realize unlike some others that faith cannot be measured or formed through science. So attacking faith because it is non scientific means you don't know the definition of faith. They test because they can believe nothing until they know everything. When they know everything they would be god. Since they do not believe in god they will no longer exist. Well I can hope. Oo new theory let just go ahead, say its right, destroy the world to prove it, and hope someone out their records it so I can be famous. Sigh

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Rob Hill, SoCal, USA — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 03:43:20 GMT

Well, If CERN does create a strangelett that eats the Earth at least we will all have the satisfaction that France will go first. Seriously though, even if these collisions happen in nature, that is no solice. For example, fusion happens in stars, and I'm cool with that. I just don't want it happening next door.

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Squeep, Troy, Missouri — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 00:13:48 GMT

okay, gamble with your own life, but please don't gamble with the entire earth's!

can't some things just be left a mystery?

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Tony, Clevo — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 19:05:14 GMT

Douglas,

True that the Earth is not moving at the speed of light, but the cosmic rays that hit us everyday are moving at the speed of light. Consider the sun being 93,000,000 miles away from earth. Now consider that the speed of light is 186,282 miles per second. When you see the sun rise in the morning it takes nearly 8 min. and 30 secs. for heat to hit you. That is because the rays are traveling at the speed of light, and it is taking that long to hit you.

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Jeffrey, NYC — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 23:11:09 GMT

The CERN safety report concludes that because the earth, sun, etc. still exist, no danger is posed by the CERN experiments. The flaw in the argument is that we don't necessarily know what astronomical bodies no longer exist, and whether any of those may have been lost to mini-black holes, strangelets, super-vacuums or otherwise. The lack of that knowledge makes the conclusion suspect (like saying that a particular disease may not have affected humans 20,000 years ago because nobody today is infected with that disease). I respect the work of the scientists who have reviewed the safety of CERN, but they're too heavily invested in CERN's operation. I would much more respect the review of a peer group that has had no involvement with the CERN project.

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Joe Smith — Thu, 11 Sep 2008 01:47:46 GMT

what a waste of money.. if a black hole does come. KOOL!

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Kav, Virginia — Thu, 11 Sep 2008 03:35:46 GMT

God the Mayan calendar ending at 2012 was probably as much as they could count.

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Steve Cox — Thu, 11 Sep 2008 05:28:35 GMT

Just a comment: talk about learning from a "stable" black hole, or any black hole misses the point. You should do all experiments that have an iota of a chance of producing a BH in another solar system, not your own.

Perhaps a good lawyer could do a "class action" and ease the angst a little…
sc

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:44:47 GMT

Jeffrey,
There does seem to be a lack of knowledge problem. Allow me to recast your arguement. Some scientists are talking about getting goldfish. A couple of people uninvolved in ichthyology saw a special on cable about the Amazon and are concerned because they know that pirhana pose a safety issue. The scientists released a safety study concluding that because millions of households have or have had goldfish in them and the people in the houses are still uneaten it must be safe to have goldfish, otherwise the people would have been eaten by the goldfish and the houses would be empty except for the goldfish. You're saying we can't know goldfish are safe because there might be some families that we don't know about BECAUSE they were eaten so we can't ask them if they were eaten or not.
That's your arguement in a nutshell, except that I severely understated the state of goldfish. It would have to be something ridiculous like houses converted to ponds that were overloaded with goldfish and the families wade around in them.
CERN isn't saying that we know that no body has ever been consumed by a MBH. They're saying that we're bathed in collisions similar to what will be in the LHC. If those collisions produce dangerous MBHs or strangelets or other exotic doomsday whatsits we'd have experienced the results of that danger already.
I know it's safe to turn on a lamp. I know that the artificial light produced by an incandescent bulb, no, let's be green, a fluorescent bulb won't cause me to burst into flame. I know this for the lamp I haven't turned on yet because all the other lamps that I walk by with those bulbs in them haven't made me burst into flame.

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Nicholas, Winston Salem, NC — Sun, 14 Sep 2008 15:07:01 GMT

Here's the main thing: scientists aren't exactly sure what black holes are capable of.
They say that they simply suck matter in and crushes it, but I have a different outlook on it. What if these generated black holes that may pop up during the experiment serve as portals of sorts? They could reconfigure our matter and end up dropping us off in another place in another time.
Since we're kicking theories around over here, I figure I'd thrown in my proverbial two cents.

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Charles, Chantilly VA — Sun, 28 Sep 2008 03:07:40 GMT

"the world's biggest and most expensive atom-smasher."

It is NOT an atom smasher; it is a hadron smasher! ARRRGGGHHH!

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Chris Boothe, Vidalia, LA — Sun, 28 Sep 2008 08:25:01 GMT

Borlock is correct that the Earth and every other object in the universe is moving at light speed in some frame(s) of reference. For example, a cosmic ray moving parallel to the one posited to be striking the Earth, but in the opposite direction, would perceive both the earth and the other cosmic ray to be moving toward each other at light speed. This is not relevant, though, since that ray would exist in a frame of reference causally insulated from ours. To put it in layman's terms, if a person were riding that cosmic ray, he could never see what happened to the Earth because the light from the Earth at the time of the collision and thereafter could never catch up to it, therefore it could not be affected by the incident, so in its universe it did not occur. Differently stated, any planets subjected to such collisions in the "real world", i.e., our general frame of reference, could have been destroyed and we would, by definition, never be able to see it.

Having said that, it is still correct to rely on the lack of observed events to deny the danger. Even if we assume the energy of such collisions is doubled, as per the "cue-ball" analogy, they still fall short of the total energy of observed natural collisions by many orders of magnitude.

More importantly, the simple math of the "killer black hole" doesn't work. The mass of the supposed two-proton black hole would still be less than that of any atom except hydrogen. Does an iron atom suck in other iron atoms and form black holes that eat the world? If not, then why would an object of even less mass be strong enough to do so? The scale of distance between particles renders the gravitational force almost meaningless in particle interactions. It is like expecting the sun to "suck in" a neighboring star. Sure it could theoretically happen, but even then the resulting black hole would have less mass than many other atoms around it. This incredible coincidence would have to happen many many many times over before it would become large enough to reasonably affect its surroundings. Suffice it to say that it is not, strictly speaking, impossible for it to occur; but it is sufficiently improbable that if the LHC ran for a trillion trillion years it would have less than a trillionth of a trillionth of a chance of happening (in fact the odds are much less, almost infinitely so).

There is a much greater chance of the Earth detonating in a spontaneous fission chain reaction at any given moment than there is of the LHC ever creating a killer black hole. After you win the lottery jackpot 1000 times in a row, then you may be in the ballpark to worry about these kinds of events. Until then, don't lose any sleep over it. If doomsday appeals to you, why not worry about comets and asteroids, or gamma bursts, or instability in the sun. These are things that can really happen, and could end our puny existence in a flash. Better yet, worry about getting hit by a car, having an aneurysm, or being blown up by a terrorist bomber. These are even more likely, and could end your (or my) existence in a flash.

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Chris Boothe, Vidalia, LA — Sun, 28 Sep 2008 10:59:42 GMT

There is an error in my example given above. Sorry, but this relativity stuff can get confusing. The "observer" cosmic ray would be moving in the SAME direction as the ray colliding with Earth, but on the other side of Earth, and thus would be moving AWAY from the collision point. This would create the appearance that the Earth was moving away from the "observer" ray at light speed, towards the colliding ray, which would appear to be moving toward the observer ray (and Earth) at light speed. This seeming contradiction is best understood by the analogy of the train and the flashlight. If you are on a train travelling at light speed and shine a flashlight ahead of the train, then the light from the flashlight would still appear to you to move ahead of the train at light speed. This is true even though, to an outside observer, the light beam would not be going "twice" light speed. This is what relativity is all about.

Sorry for the mix-up, but the point of the example is still valid. The basic idea is that, from the point of view of the "observer" ray, the relativistic effect of "doubling" the light speed of the other ray would expand the time required for the collision to occur into infinity, so that the collision literally would never occur in the referential universe the observer ray exists in. This means that, to us, no such collision could ever be observed, since in our universe it would take an infinite amount of time for the collision to happen.

Conversely, you could say that, since an object with mass (like the Earth) can never appear to be moving at light speed, relativity would make it appear infitely distant, another way of saying "outside our universe." Either way, the outcome is the same, that no such collision would ever be observable.

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Bill — Mon, 29 Sep 2008 08:56:06 GMT

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
Albert Einstein, "Science, Philosophy and Religion: a Symposium", 1941
US (German-born) physicist (1879 - 1955)

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Jeffrey Johnston San Diego, CA — Tue, 28 Oct 2008 15:23:26 GMT

Hahaha, that would suck if all existance on earth suddenly disappeared, and even earth itself, if they created a black hole. The few people in space would be like haha where is earth! And fail to reproduce in space, and the human race would be gone.

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Jason therado — Sat, 29 Nov 2008 21:44:20 GMT

I think we should use the technology that will eventually be obtained from the LHC and use it to both discover, then ultimately mock and destroy other civilizations.

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

James Bejjani, Merrylands, Sydney — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 09:22:33 GMT

the world is not going to end in 2012. thats only 3 years away. it can't be. some of my friends think it is going to end in 2030 because of an ice age. they are wrong. i don't want to die in 2012. i'll be 19 years old. i'm too young to die! they said it was going to end in 2000. but nothing happened. so what? added another 12 years and said it is actually going to end in 2012. we are still going to be here. 100%.

Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Austin Neon Sign — Sun, 07 Jun 2009 01:16:31 GMT

Would hate to have a mini-blackhole in existence for a couple years before it hits a flashpoint. Might validate the Mayan Calendar's end.