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Matthew 'Floyd' Clough, Stockbridge, GA — Mon, 16 Jun 2008 23:30:32 GMT

Thanks for the update Alan! :)

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Patrick, Austin, TX — Mon, 16 Jun 2008 23:55:36 GMT

Interesting... Is the such a thing as a "small" black hole? A center that is infinitesimally small, that's what normal black holes are, right? I'm all for the furthering of technology and understanding our world in the sub-atomic way, but playing with the ultimate of destroyers, a black hole, seems dangerous. Oh, well, if something goes wrong, we won't know.

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James Tankersley Jr — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 00:24:58 GMT

The issues and the dangers are real, the lack of study attesting to the safety of micro black holes is astounding.

The issues are detailed fairly well on the Wikipedia Large Hadron Collider article, Safety section, also on the discussion page. Quality content also at LHCFacts.org.

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Wilson, Brisbane, Australia — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 00:34:11 GMT

Allan

Thank you for being such a good source of valuable concrete information on the situation concerning the LHC safety assessment question.

You wrote:
"In the meantime, CERN officials are moving ahead with a report that updates a six-year-old study contending the LHC is scientifically safe. The updated study from the LHC Safety Assessment Group is expected to come before CERN's Scientific Policy Committee and the CERN Council during meetings this week - and if the process goes as planned, that hotly anticipated report should be released to the public soon afterward."

Given that the LSAG report was commissioned by CERN, and reviewed by the CERN Council Scientific Policy Committee, composed only of physicists, we have the situation where this flagship physics project is reviewed by CERN and physicists. This physicists-only advice is then put to CERN Council for decision. CERN Council represents the 20 governments funding the LHC. The Council therefore itself is not at arms-length from the project, and may itself feel a bias to justify its prior decisions of support.

With this state of affairs, thoughtful people are uneasy because of reference to a basic sense of fairness. This goes right back to the start of civilisation and as such is embodied in the rules of natural justice or procedural fairness. These have traditionally been classified under two branches:

The hearing rule: audi alteram partem – "hear the other side"

The rule against bias (nemo debet esse judex in propria sua cause – "no one to be a judge in their own cause")

It is hoped that the 20 governments involved in this process will each seek and take independent, neutral, arms-length advice on the recommendation made to them by the their CERN Council representative before approving LHC startup. That is, the independent, neutral, arms-length advice which has been missing in the LHC risk assessment process so far, an absence which adds up to serious deficiencies in procedural fairness which put the public at risk.

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Robert I. Marsh II, Butler, GA. — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 00:42:03 GMT

Behind closed doors! There are discussions going on, by Stephen Hawking, Director General Robert Aymar (CERN), and LSAG Risk Assessment Group (CERN), in regard to the formation of a Quantum Wormhole! The Quantum Time-Dilation Contraction Calibration Equations are being re-calculated for a 14 TeV Proton collision (scheduled for Sept-Oct 2008). The question is: Will the collision produce an Inverse Energy (Quantum Inversion), from the Quantum Plasma Wave Function, and would this alter Quantum Pathways, thus changing Nuclear Positionings; creating a Time/Space curvature, and establishing a Quantum Wormhole??? Could this in turn, breach the containment area, and affect the superconductor dipole systems/detector array?

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Thomas Ashby, Calgary — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 01:13:56 GMT

" Will the collision produce an Inverse Energy (Quantum Inversion), from the Quantum Plasma Wave Function, and would this alter Quantum Pathways, thus changing Nuclear Positionings; creating a Time/Space curvature, and establishing a Quantum Wormhole??? Could this in turn, breach the containment area, and affect the superconductor dipole systems/detector array?!"

Will the dynamic duo solve this Gotham riddle? Tuuune in next week to see the conclusion!

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james, Georgia — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 02:14:28 GMT

i personally think that is the stupidest idea ive EVER heard. playing with that kind of stuff is just unnecessary and dangerous.obviously the people trying to make a black hole care more about sciece and much much much less about the safety and well-being of every person on earth.pollution is a huge issue but obviously scientists want to kill us much quicker.i personally want to live a full life but seriously how about focusing more on global warming and the pollution issue then a black hole. becuase a black hole like the one guy commented is an ultimate destroyer like the earth realy needs something to destroy it much sooner.im not going to lie this issue scares me and every person i know.give me one reason why it is a good idea to risk the lives of every person on earth and maybe my opinion will change until then like i said i believe it is a rediculous idea.

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J Wyatt, Tempe, AZ — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 02:22:40 GMT

There comes a time when science must set aside its hubris and take exceptional precautions to ensure that our existence is assured. This is one of those times. Too little is known about it to be firing this particle cannon at exotic particles, considering the sheer power output of this device.

I am not being unreasonable in saying that the people of the world need better assurances that this device is safe. To fire this thing off under varying, never-before-attempted scenarios without having nigh-conclusive proof that this thing wont destroy us all, is just plain mad.

For the love of Pete! Listen up people! Science is just now coming to the conclusion that cell phones are worse than cigarettes! This after 30 years of use, by billions of individuals, they finally realized that cell phones are cooking parts of our brains.

And now they want to fire up the largest, most powerful energy pump in the world, and aim it at particles that have the potential to implode and destroy our atmosphere in a matter of minutes.

I hope these scientists are better than the ones who thought it would be a good idea to explode over a thousand nuclear weapons in the American Southwest, killing an untold number of Americans via subsequent nuclear fallout and the resulting cancers. Ever wonder why the US has some of the highest cancer rates? Check out the long term fallout map online, then go compare that map to yearly cancer rates nationwide.

Think. Learn. Don't be fooled. Stop being a sheep

The US Government is the largest business on the planet, and the greediest. It is made up of bureaucrats whose only interest is self preservation, and rarely, if ever, in the interest of the people. Demand that Government work and stop being such a beast that only exists to perpetuate more government.

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Dionysus, Raleigh NC — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 02:33:59 GMT

It seems like a whole lotta hooplah over something that is not so bad. these "black holes" don't have enough mass to suck anything up, so i have no idea what you are fearing. However, this energy might tear a hole in spacial fabric... that is just speculation though.

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andre fontana — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 03:17:15 GMT

There are no real particles, only waves of high energy that jump from one small peice of the uiverse medium to the next. These energy waves ie (particles) once on a piece of the medium make it easier for another wave of energy to latch on, thus you get gravity. The faster these energy wave move from one piece of the universe medium to the next the more energy cocentrates on that particular piece of the medium ,hince mass seems to increase. Time is the material in between the pieces of the medium. As the wave pass from one piece of the medium to the next it stretches one peice of the medium further from the next, thus lengthing time ,ie makes it run slower. Oh there you have it gravity is not really real, it is a consequence of the above actions. Back holes develope by the concentration of an intence amount of energy on a small number mediums. It is unlikley that sub atomic particles would be able effect a picece of the universe medium allowing it to attact more and more energy (particles) and grow into a large black hole.

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Michael Kent,OH — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 04:28:18 GMT

The fact is,this is not going to happen. Particles impact the earth with vastly more energy than this every day. These sorts of colisions are extremely common all over the universe and there is no sign here or anywhere else of any of these sorts of effects happening due to them.

Furthermore,microblack holes are not a danger at all. Blackholes radiate energy. The smaller the black hole the larger the energy. a 20 TeV black hole would evaporate almost instantly. Any small black hole will radiate far more energy than it could possibly consume.

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LighterSide — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 05:30:45 GMT

Darn it, Robert, you took the words right out of my mouth! It could discumbobulate the whatchamacallits forcing the dingledorks to ka-boom until the willywonks tear the jabberwookies apart.

I need to go lie down now... that hurt my brain.

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Duane, Monett, MO — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 05:50:43 GMT

Does anyone really know what time it is? Or, as Cramer would say, does anyone know what the hell they are talking about here?

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TavishHill, Bunker Hill, IL — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 05:57:48 GMT

Wilson, your complaint about the supposed hint of corruption within the group of physicists whose job it is to decalre the operations safe or not is rather dumb to be blunt. We are talking about general relativity meeting quantum mechanics here via high energy particle physics. Who would you like to review the safety hazards if not the type of people who have spent to entire careers undersanding how the science of these fields of study works?

This whole issue is completely absurd to begin with. It is wholly based on an ignorance about what black holes actually are. Black holes are NOT objects that suck everything around them into them to be gobbled up and devoured, only to grow larger and keep feeding like some sort of mythical monster. A black hole has a limit where its gravitational pull is no longer strong enough to gobble up anything. The bigger the BH, the more it can gobble up.

These microscopic BH's are simply too small to be capable of devouring nearby matter. BH's are no different than any other form of matter that interacts gravitationally with other matter. If you were on a ship whizzing around a BH outside a certain radius, it'd be absolutely no more dangerous (less so actually due to heat) than if you were orbitting a star or even a planet.

Not to mention that BH's this small evaporate too quickly to cause any damage anyhow.

You have to be willing to look into the actual science of what a BH is and what is actually being tested in the LHC before imagining you have some intellectual capacity to criticize it.

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William Smith, Kalama, Washington. — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 06:00:47 GMT

If they blow up the world, hold them accountable.

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Cruxoftheissue, Canada — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 06:22:03 GMT

This reminds me of that one time...back in 1948, I believe, when the incredibly arrogant talking-heads of our government funded the incredibly arrogant pin-heads of science to blow a hole (aint nuclear power grand) in the Van Allen Belt. Sure, this allowed us to go to the moon...(or did it, haha), but did anyone ever stop to consider what it might have allowed to COME IN? Cue myriad UFO sitings since.
Listen brainiacs....it's not just YOUR planet. It belongs to the under 145 IQ set as well, and it's their Van Allen Belt, and their "medium", and their "gravity" too. You don't just get to "experiment" with EVERYBODY'S universe just because you can. We all share this sandbox, kiddies, and so please remember the old adage:
If you pee in your pants, you will only stay warm for so long.

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Timothy C. Phillips, Birmingham AL — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 07:09:05 GMT

Ah but the strangelet argument bears consideration. Anything a strangelet touches adds to its mass. Black holes be damned; the issue is could this sort of Xp blot us all out, and the answer isn't certain. Why on earth would you ok this under those circumstances?

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Brian M. Bannon, Riverview, FL — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 07:26:52 GMT

Before the first atomic bomb was detonated there was speculation that the nuclear reaction could not be limited to the fissionable material and would spread until it consumed the earth. Possible? Yes. Probable? Well, we're still here.

I can recall how people were once fearful of microwave ovens. It was a real concern that they would somehow make the food radioactive. I suppose it didn't help that one of the first consumer models was named the Amana Radar Range.

People always have a kneejerk reaction to new concepts, even when they are beneficial. Irradiation of foods is proven safe and could prevent these salmonella and E. coli scares.

To master science sometimes requires bold experiments and leaps of intuition. The secrets of nature can not all be unlocked from a chalkboard.

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LF1975, Europe — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 09:43:54 GMT

"The fact is, this is not going to happen. Particles impact the earth with vastly more energy than this every day. These sorts of collisions are extremely common all over the universe and there is no sign here or anywhere else of any of these sorts of effects happening due to them.

Furthermore, microblack holes are not a danger at all. Blackholes radiate energy. The smaller the black hole the larger the energy. a 20 TeV black hole would evaporate almost instantly. Any small black hole will radiate far more energy than it could possibly consume."

Those are some of the previous arguments of the CERN. On the wikipedia LHC talk page you can see the counterarguments.
These counterarguments are:
The cosmic ray high energy particles have a speed close to the speed of light. Any products of the collision with a static earth particle/atom will have a speed still very close to the speed of the cosmic particle. In case of a micro black hole (MBH), its even horizon will be infinitesimally small, with a very small gravity field according to its mass and combined with the high speed it is obvious that this MBH will pass thru earth like a neutrino.
In the case of the LHC, millions of MBH could be created at a speed close to zero, so these MBHs will be captured by earth, and then they will be able to capture more particles, grow exponentially and combine.
If the MBH radiate, then we do need to worry. The problem is that there are some doubts about it, see wikipedia LHC talk page.

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Abhi C, Raleigh, NC — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 11:29:44 GMT

These micro black holes that could possibly be created would emit so much Hawking radiation that they would disappear in less than 10^-42 seconds. Furthermore, as Michael Kent said, particle collisions of much higher energy occur all the time in the earth's atmosphere due to high energy emissions from outer space. Its just a matter of being able to study them under a controlled environment. In reality, there is no cause for worry; there is only the bogus fear-mongering hogwash that these two idiots have thought up.

Even if the plaintiffs win their case, no U.S. court has jurisdiction over the LHC. Essentially the plaintiffs are wasting their time.

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Philip J. Calamatas — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 12:15:52 GMT

Recall: Physicists that claim to the safety of this experiment are basing everything on the fact that they believe that sub-atomic size black holes will vaporize and self-destruct nearly as fast as they are created, and all this comes from a Stephen Hawkings theory that has already been shown to be somewhat inaccurate in certain areas. How do they know what will really occur?

As for those individuals that believe that their death will be instantaneous and painless, well, think again, as the Earth shrinks there will be devastating earthquakes followed by the oceans overflowing their basins drowning any individuals that survived the earthquakes, this could last from minutes to months nobody really knows for sure. Following this the atmosphere will experience a tremendous pressure increase that would result in the combustion all the terrestrial oxygen with any remain matter (this phenomenon is known from submarines that imploded when crushed at great depths). Due to the law of conservation of angular momentum, the final stages would exhibit unbelievable amounts of Gamma and X-rays, don’t forget black holes don’t consume 100% of the matter falling into it, a large portion is converted to pure energy (perhaps as much as 50%) and is ejected as either radiation or in the form of particle jets emanating from the poles). To an observer looking at the Solar System from a distance, it would seem as if there was a strange type 1a supernova explosion where no white dwarf was known to exist. Nothing in the Solar System would indicate that there was anything intelligent in this area of the galaxy, and maybe there never was any intelligence here.

I wonder: is it possible that this may be the reason why SETI cannot find any intelligent life in the universe? It may be because these exo-cultures all went through the same phase of experimentations’ that we are now attempting that resulted in the total destruction and erasure of their home planet along with all evidence of their existence.

Have a nice day 

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J. S. Paul, Syracuse, N.Y. — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 13:02:39 GMT

It appears to the educated mind that SHOULD a black hole form, its intense mass would make it continue in a straight line. As it would be travelling with Earth's rotation at the moment of its creation, where the Earth's surface is in a continual curved rotational path around the planet's center, the B.H.'s mass would dictate that it would continue in a straight line. The comparatively wispy planet's surface would have no more pull on it than an airball would have on us in space. The black hole would appear to us (if we could actually see it as more than a point of darkness) to instantly take a quick path straight up, away from our surface. At worst, it might suck up some material in and around its path as it moves straight away from us, leaving (probably at most) a basketball-sized hole up through the "roof" of the collider. This would happen so quickly that it would appear to be fired up through the roof, without sucking up anything else around it (other than some nearby egocentric physicist who expects everyone to suck up to him). So if you have a detestable relative, ask them to a celebratory party to be held just above the anticipated collision point at the appointed time, and you may be relieved of their unnecessary burden as well.

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Philip J. Calamatas — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 13:10:11 GMT

To Michael Kent

Recall: that a relativistic particle (cosmic ray particle) that impacts a stationary particle (an air molecule) decelerates slowly imparting a large amount of its energy to the molecule causing the destruction of both into sub-atomic particles (think of a cue ball hitting the other balls causing them to disperse). However, when CERN becomes active they will impact two relativistic particles that were traveling in opposite directions and colliding together, coming to a complete halt with all of the energy compressed into one sub-atomic area with little or no loss of that energy. The resultant particle of matter would now be almost stationary. The mass of this particle could be of such intensity that it could rip a hole into the (expected by string theory) other hidden dimensions of our universe. WOW!!

Physicists expect that this micro black hole would dissipate (explode) almost as soon as it was formed with the more massive of these particles taking somewhat longer than the less massive (reference Steven Hawkins theory). However, what would happen if it took a few seconds before it disintegrated instead of the predicted Pico-seconds (recall: black holes have a profound affect on the passage of time), and had a source of heavy matter nearby to start consuming? As it munches it delays its expected disintegration starting a positive feedback cycle where the more it eats the more it delays its self destruction. Now wouldn’t these physicists look stupid, telling the world’s population they pulled a Homer!!

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Leonardo, Huntsville, AL — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 13:27:44 GMT

Turn the switch on.

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Clarence M, Olivehurst, Claifornia — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 13:37:58 GMT

I for one am for the LHC. The blackholes they are going to create are so microscopic that its not going to have the gravatational pull to do the earth any harm. The only concern i have is what to do with it after its created. Will it disperse quickly like they said it will or will it have to be put in a 55 gallon drum and store with all the nuclear waste that we have already created with the nuclear plants ?

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Nick, Lacona, NY — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 13:38:04 GMT

There was a time when it was said that the first time we split an atom it would start a chain reaction that would annihilate the planet. We all know how that turned out.

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Michael Bloom, VA — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 14:24:49 GMT

What blows me away is how every time something groundbreaking is about to happen in science that could explain why we are here and how we came to be, fear and ignorance take over. This is the kind of thing that holds back progress. Remember when someone suggested the Earth was not the center of the universe. Black holes are created by something at least 3 times the mass of our sun exploding! Do you really think this kind of energy could be created by a collider that is powered here on Earth that slams quantum particles together? Honestly? Creating something that powerful from a small Earth power plant. I bet scientists wish they could pull off something like that. People watch to many movies. Lastly, in case people didn’t know, CERN has been colliding particles for a long time now and we are still here.

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justin canada — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 14:33:14 GMT

why not test it out in space a cupple thousand miles from earth would be nice

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Walt — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:10:58 GMT

Playing God! - 'The World is not Enough'
Nobel Prize hungry Physicists are racing each other and stopping at nothing to try to find the supposed 'Higgs Boson'(aka 'God') Particle, among others, and are risking nothing less than the annihilation of the Earth and all Life in endless experiments to try to solve theoretical problems when urgent real problems face the planet. The European Organization for Nuclear Research(CERN) new Large Hadron Collider(LHC) is the world's most powerful atom smasher that will soon be firing subatomic particles at each other at nearly the speed of light to create Miniature Big Bangs producing clouds of Micro Black Holes, Strangelets and other potentially cataclysmic phenomena.
The CERN-LHC website Mainpage itself states quote: "There are many theories as to what will result from these collisions,..." This stunning admission is because they truly don't know what's going to happen. They are experimenting with forces they don't understand to obtain results they can't comprehend. If you think like most people do that 'They must know what they're doing.' you could not be more wrong. The second part of the quote reads "...but what's for sure is that a brave new world of physics will emerge from the new accelerator,..." A molecularly changed or Black Hole consumed Lifeless World? The end of the quote reads "as knowledge in particle physics goes on to describe the workings of the Universe." These experiments to date have so far produced infinitely more questions than answers but there isn't a particle experimentalist physicist alive who wouldn't gladly trade his life to glimpse the "God particle", and sacrifice the rest of us with him.
This quote from Nation Geographic exactly sums this "science" up: "That's the essence of experimental particle physics: You smash stuff together and see what other stuff comes out."
For more information visit;
http://www.lhcdefense.org/
http://www.lhcconcerns.com
http://www.SaneScience.org/
http://www.LHCFacts.org
Popular Mechanics - "World's Biggest Science Project Aims to Unlock 'God Particle'" - http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/extreme_machines/4216588.html"

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Nuclear, Mechanical Engineer, Oakridge, TN — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 16:06:55 GMT

The issue here is the uneducated against the educated. The uneducated hear "Blackhole!!!!" and freak out. We have 20 countries and hundreds of the worlds most educated people making the decisions. Let's try to remember that scientists by nature are some of the most cautious pepole on the planet. They come up with an idea, test it, check it with another test, then check that test, then have others check to prove there results. All while maintaining the mindset that there intial test was actually wrong or flawed some how, trying to find error in there intial results. They have done as much of the work, calculations, and theorization that they can, and now it is time to put some of those theories to the test. Hell, we let Bush barge into Iraq with just sketchy intelligence, which turned out to be a lie, no, an "exaggeration of the facts". This country has no problem letting an oil cowboy play war games with our sons' and daughters' lives. But now we have a problem with scientists expanding our knowledge of the universe. All because these individuals don't have the understanding of how a cautious, scientifically minded individual thinks. Just sleep well knowing that it is scientists making the decisions in this case, and not politicians.

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Chris, St.Paul, MN — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 17:58:26 GMT

And even if they did suck in matter, micro black holes are so small that the amount of matter they can absorb is as minute as they are.

Back before the first tests of the atomic bomb, some very creditable physicists feared the explosion would "ignite the atmosphere" and destroy the earth.

That didn't happen, and neither will this.

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Joe Bean Novi Mich — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 18:15:35 GMT

These must be the same people that destroyed the nuclear power program with their doomsday predications while the rest of the world developed there programs and left us sucking up all oil reserves. Believe me when I say to all the chicken littles out there, the sky is not falling. Joe

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Jeff Hitchcock, Olathe, Kansas — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 18:17:27 GMT

Maybe, these guys are trying to build some way to travel through time, using a black hole as a portal but they'll need another black hole on the other end to return. It's going to be a big mess any way you look at it, even, if it's the size of a pinpoint. Making a vaccum like that, isn't just irresponsible, it goes completely against science and humanity.

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Alex, Chichago — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 19:35:57 GMT

It is so nice to have public debate on black holes. Bravo America - we finally identified "real" problem.

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Wayne Reeves, Fairview, N.C. — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:17:26 GMT

The recreation of the instant our Solar System was Born is not something to be played with. The Lord bound the one we call the Devil, and these IDIOTS are going to recreate the instant of his Birth. We were warned that HE would be released again. I guess it is about that time. At least they will be there first to see their ticket to Hell.

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DirtCrashr, Silicon Valley, CA — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:27:28 GMT

Maybe they'll solve Global Warming?!? Oh the horror! Which is it gonna be? Oh the humanity! Sheesh.

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John Miller, Foster City CA — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:32:04 GMT

I'm reminded of the eighteenth-century farmers who, upon seeing the Montgolfier brothers' balloon descending toward their field, thought it was some kind of a monster and attacked it with pitchforks.

Think about all the things that we have, that we take for granted in life, that make us able to live the lives we live, then consider that if our current litigation industry had existed when they were invented we'd all still be living in caves begging the government for our daily fifteen minutes of secure fire.

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Ken Hahn, Placentia California — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:37:59 GMT

The Luddites who support this lawsuit remind me of those who warned that traveling 15 mph on a train would make the blood boil. To then quote wikipedia as if it's a controlled source rather than a hubbub of reader contributions only adds to the amusement. This lawsuit is a joke and those who support it are afraid of the dark. Far more dangerous events are occurring every day in the biological weapons labs of third world countries.

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Brad, Syracuse, NY — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:49:00 GMT

Unbelievable. Reading the vast majority of the comments above makes me fear for the future (and the present!) of science education in this country. You people are ignorant. I didn't say "stupid", I said "ignorant". Meaning uneducated. You are spouting meaningless garbage about a topic you obviously know nothing about.

Do yourselves a favor. Stay in high school long enough to pass some basic science classes. The world will look much better afterward.

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Robin Goodfellow — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:54:17 GMT

The lack of scientific and technical knowledge and perspective in the doomsday pronouncements is astounding. Consider that cosmic rays routinely shower the Earth and every other planet and body in our Solar System with particles at speeds which create sub-atomic collisions with energies many many orders of magnitude greater than anything we will be able to achieve with the LHC. Now consider that the number and variety of such sub-atomic cosmic ray collisions occurring over the many billion year lifetime of the Solar System would be astronomical. Any conditions we could create in the LHC have certainly been created in our own Solar System many, many times before (likely millions or billions of times, easily) in its history. Also consider that the mass and size of the outer planets, especially Jupiter and Saturn, greatly increase the likelihood of gravitationally capturing micro-blackholes, for example (by significant factors). And yet the evidence shows quite plainly that no planets in our Solar System have been converted into black holes. No planets in our Solar System have been converted into negative charged strange quarklets.

The ONLY rational conclusion from these blatant facts is that the likelihood of the conditions created by the LHC to cause some doomsday scenario are exceptionally tiny even were it to be operated over a 4.5 billion year time frame.

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bill c. — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:02:18 GMT

Robert,

To answer your question:

It depends.

:)

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chris Austin,TX — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:11:35 GMT

Earth is not meant to be desecrated by govt and mad scientists. Is there any real need to figure out what will happen when we chase these insane ideas? Whose suffering will stop, what child's happiness will be revived? The men involved in this experiment should be forced to go on dates with beautiful women:) and forget about thier selfish quest for knowledge.

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Pundit Joe, NC — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:18:33 GMT

Hmm, this is a difficult one. From what I have heard, and I may be wrong, the folks building this thing say it is possible something terrible could happen, but the chances are extremely small. Still, even with an extremely low probability of a catastrophic occurrence, the consequences of something going wrong are total - game over. So, at this time I would prefer to err on the side of caution until I know more.

I would hate to lose the Earth - that's where I keep all my stuff!

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John Houston — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:22:41 GMT

I do not have a college degree but I feel that I have matriculated well from the unwritten book of life. Common sense and a simple way to express oneself in an understandable form seems to be lost. Just what is a simple man to think about all these comments which seem to talk in circles about whatever it is that is in that circle. I wish someone more knowledgeable than myself could write just a paragragh or two to explain to the 99% of us simple people just what the fuss is all about. Plesae start with #1 and then proceed. I am a veteran of Vietnam and would appreciate being heard. Please do not leave the rest of us who are not that well educated..behind.

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Chris Doe, Chicago, IL — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:25:03 GMT

Look folks, please rest easy. I can tell you with perfect confidence that the LHC does not end the world. In fact, data collected from experiments performed there in 2017 were used to develop a theory of time travel that finally bore fruit in 2091.

Turns out that the whole Hitler thing... well THAT is what the LHC actually resulted in. The original leader of the NSDAP that Hitler replaced in your time stream developed nuclear weapons before the US... it was a near genocidal period of human history. Hitler is actually the lesser of two evils.

Oh... that whole "New Coke" thing... yeah the LHC was responsible for that too

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William Charles Edick — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:30:15 GMT

Well on the brigth side. I'd like to think this may lead us to the ability to fold space soto speak and travel beyond the light barrier. Sad note is if it does I won't live long enough to enjoy the product or be a part of the exploration of other worlds. EH!
Sincerly
Still this side of the great dirt nap.

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Charles Goebel, Reading, PA — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:31:08 GMT

The net import of all this reveals just how ignorant people are when it comes to science in general.
Need I cite another example of stupidity in action? Look at the Extreme Green Environmentalists. And consider what they are trying to sell the suckers.
If you're ignorant, all modern science seems to be a type of Magic. And the plaintiffs, the witchcraft trials are just around the corner...and they want to be the judges.
Dolts and Morons, all of them.

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S Shaw Pottstown PA — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:45:30 GMT

Are you guys nuts? Some of the leading nuclear physicists in the world are working on this project. Do you think that they want their legacy to be catastrophic destruction on the earth? What makes Wagner and Sancho think they have a better handle on quantum mechanics than the people working on the project? If they really thought there was the slightest chance they would be making black holes that would devastate the earth they would rethink their involvement.

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George, WA — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:46:45 GMT

oof. Im just glad Wagner and the other goof have to represent them selves so they can for all time be the doom sayers of the past that impeded the worlds growth. they sould get on the Global warming band wagon hehehehe and help ol Gore prove the planet has nothing to do with out climat its all the humans fault lol

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Mike, Long Island, NY — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:48:56 GMT

I fear for the future of the human race. Not because of the LHC, but because of all the sci-fi wierdos, religianazis, quacks, and fear mongers who think they know more than the experts and scientists. They get all the normal people up in arms about things that are completely harmless. This only serves to undermine confidence in good science and to slow progress.

These people will stop at nothing in order to stop everything.

Witness: The Arrogance of Ignorance.

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Mike Torbert — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:49:27 GMT

Uneducated vs. Educated huh? How about these educated folks, educate us dumb hillbillies on what the heck they are doing. Maybe if we understood more, and were mor INFORMED, then Science would not see as much conflict on new ideas. What are the Risks vs the Reward, that is what I want to know.

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C. Giveans, New Orleans, LA — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:56:51 GMT

I may be a lowly teen with no original thought of my own, but this all seems a bit egotistical to me. what makes anyone beleive that they have the right to tamper with nature? what can truly be gained by this? How the planet was created? is it that important for scientists to disprove the existence of any god? in the long run is it really that detrimental to the advancement of civilization? Why can we not spend this money to help educate this world? I'm not so naive that I think there can be a perfect world or anyting close to that, but with all of the problems facing the long-term survival and advancement of the ENTIRE world, why do we allow our scientists (our Educated individuals who supposedly know what they're doing)to potentially endanger the continuation of life (not just human life) by producing something that is meant to be the answer to cretion, but may turn out to be the destruction of it?

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Rick Cain, Tulsa, OK — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:57:07 GMT

Scientists made the 100 megaton 3-stage thermonuclear bomb. I feel much safer now that they're working on a sequel to that.

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John — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 22:04:01 GMT

Wow!

It's amazing how poorly people spell, let alone understand physics!

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Ryan, Rochester NY — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 22:44:25 GMT

THIS is one of the most exciting moments in HUMAN history! The (possible) discovery of a particle that can unify Quantum physics and The theory of Relativity. It's true, No one knows the outcome of these experiments, but I think I speak for most people when I say that the results will severely outweigh the risks. Especially since you have the top minds working night and day for many, many years on this project.

Now, here you have these two "scientists" who , in my own opinion, are extremely naive and ignorant to the situation at hand. Regardless of the work they have done on it in the past. Otherwise they would have been employed to work on this project. Like many other people have already stated in previous responses, there are always going to be people scared of something they are not familiar with. This is what is going to make or break our species. We need to invest in the future of our civilization and run these tests and experiments. We need to gain the full knowledge of physics and other fields of science for that matter to persevere as a civilization. Contrary to popular belief, we are still in our infant stage of existence and need the scientific knowledge to solve the many problems of a growing species. As we come into a time where countries' borders and cultural boundries are no longer clearly defined, we need to come together as a species, not a country, not a race, not a religion. This is the only way to evolve (for those of you that do subscribe to the FACT of evolution) as a species. We are not meant to stay on this planet. We are a explorative species and will only expand in our understanding of the Universe and beyond.

Now how can we let so few stand in the way of some of the greatest discoveries in HUMAN history. This is just the beginning and I, for one, would love to be alive to experience as many of these great discoveries as I can. So let's send a message and get rid of these speed bumps in the road.

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Philip J. Calamatas — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 22:58:12 GMT

Physicists say that a micro B-H should self detonate within a few billionths of a second, however a B-H does not live by our time scale, a few billionths of a second for the hole may be a few hours for us, long enough to annihilate the planet. Many physicists have witnessed the effects of time dilation on particles produced by the current generation of accelerators that have extended the lives of these particles by the nature of the velocity they were traveling at. However, now they will have a particle that is not traveling at relativistic speeds, its stationary (due to the fact that it was produced by the head-on collision of two equal protons), except it will still have an enormous time dilation effect that could slow its self destruction. Furthermore; it would not be the ultra massive object that many believe a micro B-H to be. Therefore, inertia would not greatly affect it, allowing it to escape the planet due to the planet’s rotation. It will not be flung into space as it would easily be captured by the Earth’s gravitational field.

For those people saying that the micro-black hole is minuscule and could not devour enough mass to cause any harm, are totally ignorant of what would happen if it remains stable. An established hole of sub-atomic size and mass that has no velocity will gravitate nearly frictionless to the center of the Earth and would probably continue on to nearly the other side of the globe at which point it would again re-fall back constantly sewing its way through the planet as it rotates, all the while continuously gaining mass and growing larger. At one point it would be large enough and would lodge permanently within the core of the planet. Once there it could be only a matter of minutes before the planet totally falls into it. The only thing that might delay this outcome could be the back pressure generated by the hole of several billion megatons of energy radiated by the hole (not all the matter is consumed, as much as 50% is converted to pure energy), but eventually this pressure will explode the remaining outer portion of the Earth (the crust) in a fireball that would be similar in magnitude to a type 1a supernova.

I’m all for Physicists playing god, but I would expect them to do it is a fail-safe environment, like in space far from Earth and myself and my children.

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Philip J. Calamatas — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 23:47:10 GMT

To all those fearless people claiming that science never falters, I would like to sell them a ticket on the either the Titanic (unsinkable) or the Hindenburg (safest way to fly), its your choice. Now its the whole planet they are playing with. Any buyers?

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Robert Coon Rapids, MN — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 00:41:19 GMT

I think the real problem is that we haven't thrown enough money into education. The lack of critically thinking "Americuns", brought on by the similar lack of funding for higher education and for the education of our children in basic math for crying out loud. (when is the last time you saw a kid making a multiplication chart with a <GASP> pencil and paper?)
I'm waiting for the Mothership to dock with planet earth and harvest us for dinner. HA HA HA HA

POWER UP LHC AND LETS LEARN SOMETHING!!! Too bad we waste our money on adventures in the Middle East, instead of SCIENCE, TECHNOLOGY, and RESEARCH...
what a concept...

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Glenn, Yulee, Fl — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 00:42:13 GMT

I tend to see both sides of the issue. What the LHC could do is allow us to get a view of how the universe began, have a way to create wormholes to travel vast distances in very little time allowing humanity to colonize and expand on planets with infinite resource capability, and so forth. If the LHC does work and is proven safe by being functional, then it could seriously push science and human advancement extensively forward.

However, I do also see the ones wishing to heed the side of caution. We are trying to directly control a force of the universe, feeling we understand it better than we do in an attempt to advance our understanding, willing to take risks. Many different factors could logically occur. The energy used to collide the particles together to test the Strong Force, could in affect cause a huge energy output, well beyond anything expected and cause Earth to be destroyed, our only known planet of life. We still have only vague understandings as to how Gamma Ray Bursts happen and what all forces affect such a large release of energy. Also by playing with this same Strong Force and immense energy, we could create a black hole that likes to eat and ends up growing up right here on our own planet, consuming its makers. These are just two of the many interesting possibilities. Energy and Mass are interdependant, with common ground being their wave movement, as was shown by mass moving in forms of waves also, even if less noticable, from other studies.

So therefore, we're left with 2 main possibilities, we either grow in science due to it or... it could blow up in our face by either creating a huge amount of energy, mass, or magnetic force that could end up dooming us. Is CERN being arrogant? Yes, especially with one planet. Is there a high likelihood of one of these many doomsday events happening? We won't know till we try it. However, it is paid with taxpayer money and in the end, the taxpayers whom's governments, businesses, and such are funding this project, can at any time begin or end all such projects with the single swift movements of their pens.

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James Tankersley Jr — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 01:09:25 GMT

John from Huston writes "explain to the 99% of us simple people just what the fuss is all about."

I run LHCFacts.org, I will try to explain what the "fuss" is all about and try to keep it simple.

The Large Hadron Collider is an experiment that will slam tiny particles into each other at very very high speeds, then measure what happens, and scientists hope to learn some of natures secrets from these experiments.

Unfortunately we do not know if this would be safe or dangerous, but some very intelligent scientists are working very hard to make sure that this experiment will be safe before collisions begin, before the experiment is turned on.

A black hole is something that crushes and destroys anything that gets too close to it. It eats everything that gets too close to it.

CERN is the company that built and will run the Large Hadron Collider, and CERN thinks that the Large Hadron Collider might create micro (tiny) black holes. We do not know if micro black holes will be created, but they might be.

Some scientists think that micro black holes would evaporate, just disappear so they would be safe. But other scientists believe that micro black holes might not evaporate and might be dangerous.

Micro black holes would be very tiny, but they would get bigger as they eat other stuff, like the stuff the Earth is made of. Some scientists think that micro black holes would grow so slowly that they would never become large enough to eat all of Earth. But some other scientists believe that micro black holes could grow quickly and become large enough to eat Earth in just 5 or 10 or more years. But we don't know what will really happen.

So CERN asked Dr. Michelangelo Mangano to try to find out if micro black holes would be safe or dangerous.

Dr. Michelangelo Mangano should be done soon, and then the world's scientists will read his safety report and make sure that no mistakes were made, and make sure that the Large Hadron Collider will be safe before any micro black holes are made.

The law suit will try to make sure that the safety report is completed and that the worlds scientists are allowed to read the safety report and make sure no mistakes were made before before collisions begin.

I hope this helps explain the science,
JTankers
LHCFacts.org

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Nathan C , Little Rock, AR — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 01:28:58 GMT

I love how all these intellectual gurus of space and science set here and put everyone who doesnt have a degree in advanced nuclear physics into a catagory of stupid and ignorant. You people are the ignorant ones. I just finished reading every single post that you supporters have written explaining why we uneducated 9th grade science dropouts dont understand the true meaning of black holes, but the funny thing is that none of you idiots made one statement that matched the other. Some of you stated that the energy would be blasted in a straight line straight out of earths atmosphere, and some of you stated that the black hole wouldnt produce enough inverse energy to consume its own therefore would only destroy itself. It seems to me that you guys are the only ones that are mixed up. Everyone on here that doesnt support the idea of creating a galaxy destroyer all have their facts straight. Black holes eat large things, NO one really knows why black holes occur because we have never witnessed one created, and no one knows at what real size black holes become effective. For all you intellectuals know, everyblack hole in the universe could have been created by what was a civilized world at the point we are in, scientific suicide. Who gives you the right to make a decision for an entire planted. The way I see it your minority of super intelects doesnt even compare to the vast majority of people with enough common sense to know that you dont need to create something that eats worlds...ON A FREAKING WORLD. No matter how large or small.

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Mike Schneider — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 02:00:49 GMT

Yank the handle.

For the Chill Dren.

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Andy Boo, Philadelphia, Pa — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 02:20:10 GMT

People feared that the first atomic bomb test would IGNITE THE ATMOSPHERE and destroy the planet. Sound familiar? What if this accelerator creates a runaway black hole? At worst there would be a lot less trash on the planet! AND at best we would have the most efficient trash can in the universe and not to mention our energy problems would be sucked in as well. It is a risk we as a civilization need to take. What if early humans were to afraid of utilizing fire? We would all be sucking marrow out of the corpses we found laying around. Lets leave the quantum physics to the quantum physicists.

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Jaycubed — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 02:47:58 GMT

One can only hope that their FLUX CAPACITORS are sufficient to stand the strain!

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Marty, Carson City, NV — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 02:56:28 GMT

I'll bet you a billion dollars that we'll still be here the day after they fire it up! - Seriously though, the probability is tiny, but the consequence is GIGANTIC. Also, a micro black hole IS capable of gobbling up matter! Anything that gets within a tiny distance WILL be consumed. The only question is: Will it evaporate more quickly than it falls into contact with matter? Probably, but I don't want to bet our lives on it.

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Mark VanGelder, Searcy,AR — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 03:42:18 GMT

Humans are inherently stupid (religion and Earth pollution are the best examples)! Actually, religion is a pollution, a social poison. The world would be a much kinder place without them both!

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Redherkey — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 03:43:31 GMT

RHIC's director ridiculed claims that their collider would possibly produce micro black holes, equating such arguments as bogus science. When evidence was later produced of such occurrences taking place, he rephrased his criticism to say "Of course black holes are being created, but they're so tiny, they just evaporate. We knew that all along!"

To say I'm skeptical when the scientists promoting high dollar projects go from denying something is possible and calling those who raise the concern kooks, to saying it was totally expected all along but it's "nothing to see, move along," is an understatement.

As a risk professional who directs the operational risk program for one of the largest global financial providers, I'm astonished at the reckless risk taking being conducted in our scientific institutions. This is nothing more than people taking shameless risks for the pursuit of professional glory, at the potential expense of humanity (and more). Any risk professional who tolerates the rationalization of "well, it never happened before therefore it can't happen in the future" ought to be locked up in perpetuity.

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Marilyn Terrell — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 03:51:54 GMT

For some reliable info on CERN and the project explained in laymen's terms, without hysteria, here's an article by Joel Achenbach published in National Geographic in March:
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/03/god-particle/achenbach-text

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Michael Gebert, Chicago IL — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 04:01:11 GMT

"The fact is,this is not going to happen. Particles impact the earth with vastly more energy than this every day. These sorts of colisions are extremely common all over the universe and there is no sign here or anywhere else of any of these sorts of effects happening due to them."

Yeah, there's no sign because the signs all disappeared into the black holes!

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flyoversam — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 04:26:00 GMT

Like Mike, I also fear for the future of the human race. Not because of the LHC, but because of all the leftists who place blind faith in the master and his yoke (be it a politician, dictator, scientist or other authority) to take full responsibility for their lives in a devil's bargain where the fool presumes to trade away risk and uncertainty. They believe by exchanging their freedom for slavery to the master's cause, they might bargain for a little certainty hoping the master won't be as cruel as the uncertain future of autonomy and self-responsibility.

These wierdos, gaia religianazis, global warming quacks, and fear mongers who think they know more than the skeptics and highly educated professionals from other fields who have the capacity to identify fraud when they see it, regardless of whether it's based in science. They get all the normal people complacent in things they know absolutely nothing about, but declare harmless because their master proclaims so.

Unfortunately they sell their neighbors in their slavery bargain. A gamble on a high energy collider that "only has a less than 1% chance of eliminating the earth" is written off as impossible, in typical prospect theory manner. While these fools make for interesting study in behavioral finance, their foolish gambles risk us all. Where does it say a handful of PhDs aspiring for professional greatness have the authority to take the existence of humanity into their own hands?

Today's high energy physicists are no different than Hitler's scientists connecting dog heads to human torsos. For a little fame and curiousity, nothing is off limits.

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Chris Gibbs, Myrtle Beach, South Carolina — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 07:09:26 GMT

WoW....folks...are we really in the 21st century here ? Most of the world (and the sheep on it) sound like they come from the dark ages !! Anyone remember the sound barrier ? How about the world being flat ? Or that dead organic matter actually spawns maggots ? Its not LHC, scientists or anything else I worry about .....frankly...my worries are the REST OF YOU HUMANS. We are such a backwards race...

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Dave F Cape Town SA — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 09:01:28 GMT

I understand that a popular theory about generating small black holes like those postulated is that they would sink right through the earth and keep on going.

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Brando L., Oceano Beach, California — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 10:02:38 GMT

Danger, shmanger!!! All I want to know is, if I put these "particles" in my SUV, will they make it go??? And how much are these particles a gallon? Let's do this thing!

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Pat Patterson, Huntington Beach, CA — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 10:17:28 GMT

Professor Fate: "Push the button, Max!"

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Ryan Newberry, Colorado Springs, CO — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 12:33:10 GMT

I say we just turn it on and spin it up. What's the worst that can happen; the world plunges into a black hole and we go out in a rampage of global implosion: so what! We won't know the difference.

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JRH South Bend, IN — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 12:45:58 GMT

They say that something like 30% of people in the US understands the scientific method but over 70% believe in psychic powers. This is a sad because the US has thrived economically and socially because of our technical advantage.

People who are not scientists seem to have this impression that scientists are not people. They are! They have lives, families, and they do things outside of science. Why do people think that scientists would harm their own families?

The search for scientific truth would not matter much if we anihilated every person in the world, would it?

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Steven Vande Lune, Morrison, IL — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 14:08:31 GMT

It is legitimate to ask the question: Will the experiments I am about to do cause harm to the earth. We accept a great deal on faith in the modern world. For example, one hopes that the discussion of the risks of side effects of conducting particle collisions at CERN have been discussed and understood to be zero. Perhaps the most alarming thing I noticed in the article is that the discussion is not about whether or not CERN poses a risk to the earth, ie the possible annihilation of earth, but centers around the legal basis to bring suit. God help us, if our future is in the hands of the attorneys. At the same time we have to realize that anyone can bring a suit, and one needs to keep proper context.

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Craig, California — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 14:32:26 GMT

John - I'm not a physicist, but here's the general issue as I understand it:

1) LHC is a particle collider - it speeds atoms and other particles up tremendous speeds and then smashes them together.
2) When they collide, two things can happen: a) they are smashed apart into thousands of smaller particles that the scientists can then trace in their billionths of a second lives, or b) all the mass of the two particle can get pushed so close together that it collapses from its own gravity.
3) If b) happens, this is called a mini blackhole. Now, large black holes eat everything in their path. Small black holes pop out of existence in a tiny fraction of a second.
4) The fear is that, if a small black hole sticks around for a little too long, and it wanders into the Earth (they pass through regular matter like it's not there), it could feed on matter and grow into a black hole big enough to eat the Earth.

Obviously, the 'worst case' is bad. It's also unbelievably unlikely. Like one poster pointed out, nature has likely been showering the Earth with mini black holes for billions of years and nothing has happened.

Also, it's not like these physicists are doing this for kicks. These same experiments that may create momentary black holes will also almost certainly enable new technologies as well - medicine, new classes of computers, insight into how the brain works, nano technology. Even black holes themselves could conceivably be of serious use in energy generation and storage, propulsion, micro-industrial fabrication, medicine, communication, and computing - probably all decades or centuries off, but that's all the more reason to learn how to work with them now.

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Salt Lake City, UT — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 15:34:33 GMT

It is theorized that Black Holes are created in the upper atmosphere every time lightning strikes. Atom sized black holes are popping in and out of existance every millisecond of every day right here on Earth. What's the worst that could happen? We create another dimension? If we die we will just return to the eternal collective unconsious anyway. (((FIRE IT UP))) spiral-out

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ken, easley SC — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 18:35:34 GMT

I recently had a conflict with my local homeowner's association. It convinced me that democracy can sometimes result in really stupid decisions. This thread convinces me even more. Hereditary Monarchy looks better and better every day.

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hugo, Pontiac, Mi — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 20:10:51 GMT

...and an American court has jurisdiction in this matter how?

jdfu!

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Clare — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 21:28:55 GMT

The world doesn't end that way, anyway.

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Crystal — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 04:00:59 GMT

What happend to just letting things be in the natural skem of things, why do some scientist feel the urge to mess up the nautral order of things ? I think its like playing with fire accept if something goes worng it is at the expense of every living thing on the earth that pays. The earth does not belong to us we belong to earth, Its really depressing to think of what kind of world this place has become with quacks like this running around, I worry for the children mostly and our poor mother earth. I really hope there is a god out there somewhere and if there is he is watching over us cause if not we are all screwed. people need to start fighting back and stop giving the control to mindless idiots like this. I am so tired of feeling like i have no say in anything if someone can go play god like that we should be able to stand up and fight back!!!!!

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Crystal — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 04:08:36 GMT

do all scientist have god complexes? Get over it!! Your just a monkey like the rest of us according to evolution. So go back to eating your bananas and stop trying to take over the planet .It would do us all a favor you dont see apes trying to create black holes .Can you imagine?? wait a second they do ....oh no we are in trouble!!

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John Joseph TO, California — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 04:25:25 GMT

The reality is the LHC scientist may be careful, thoughtful and prudent. But they cannot judge the risks themselves objectivly. They are so far past the Fail Safe point due to the economic pressures, that they must pay Manna to. The nations and their agendas building the bugger. No one is quite sure what will happen over time, with the many experiments they will conduct.The LHC is many different types of a-bomb tests, metaphorically speaking.Much could happen over time.Cell phones are just now being realized as quite dangerious to the brain.DUH!!!!
The real problem will occur when Q and the Borg show up one thousand years early.We can only hope that Admiral John Luc Picard, Admiral Kirk and Spock are right behind, whipping past the sun at light speed times 10 to 1000th speed. Coming back in time to save us from the Borg,Q and LHC. And kindly take the Bush Regime with them. Depositing them at a Klingon prison.
That works for me.

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Victor, Seattle — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 04:48:35 GMT

Humans! always man against man.

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Donald Pelton, Colorado Springs, CO — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 06:15:38 GMT

I happen to agree with Mike from Long Island. There were people who filed suit before the first Atomic Bomb explosion claiming that it would start an infinite reaction sucking in all of the earth, and that hasn't happened. Even if a supercollider were to create a few particles of antimatter, they would be neutralized within seconds by all the matter particles around them. Do these fearmongers have any real scientific data to substantiate their fears?

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Donald Pelton, Colorado Springs, CO — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 06:21:21 GMT

I have a question for Pundit Joe. Some people drown in deep water. Isn't it better to teach swimming than to keep people away from deep water?

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Andy, La Plata, MD — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:04:01 GMT

Keep in mind that microscopic black holes are a mathematical construct and have not been proven to even exist in the physical world.

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Pundit Joe, NC, USA — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:46:11 GMT

Yes Ken from Easly, SC, curse people’s petty wish to govern themselves. lol

As for Mark VanGelder, Searcy,AR and his view that "religion is a pollution, a social poison. The world would be a much kinder place without them both!" Mark focuses on only the bad religion has done but none of the good. Sure there are many evils carried out in the name of religion, but it was also used as basis for a decent moral code and laws, inspired many people to oppose slavery, and encourages acts of charity.

Conversely, Mark ignores the bad carried out in secularism. One only need look at the tens of millions killed by communist regimes in just the last century alone to see that secular societies are well skilled at doing bad.

Myself, I’m an agnostic, so I don’t have a dog in this hunt. I just want folks to be fair and honest about such things. Religion has done a lot of good as well as bad, just has secularism, the trick is to promote the good and discourage the bad.

As for the collider - I don’t have enough information to make a judgment. I suspect it will be safe, researchers can't get additional grants if we are all dead, but I want to learn a bit more before I give my blessing.

Even if I'm convinced it is reasonably safe, I may use the event of it going online as an excuse to have a big party with wine, women and song... just in case, of course. ;)

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Pundit Joe, NC, USA — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 16:04:23 GMT

From Donald Pelton, Colorado Springs, CO:
"I have a question for Pundit Joe. Some people drown in deep water. Isn't it better to teach swimming than to keep people away from deep water?"

Hi Donald, the point of my first comment was summed up in the line..."So, at this time I would prefer to err on the side of caution until I know more."

I'm not saying we shouldn't do it, I just would like to know more before giving my personal approval to the project. - not that my approval accounts for much anyway. lol So, I am trying to learn more. :)

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donald Canaday,20 bow ave,Dedham,Massachusetts. — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 01:04:57 GMT

Since the cern collider is functional on paper as ready to go, does anyone know for sure what kind of gateway is there? If so, will scientists contain or close cern if what comes out gets out hand. Maybe scientists should watch episode from bbc's "Doctor who." Remember the bible. what does it gain a man to have world and lose immortal soul..Sincerely, Donald Canaday of Dedham,massachusetts,usa.

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Philip J. Calamatas — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 13:30:48 GMT

TavishHill, Bunker Hill, IL wrote:

These microscopic BH's are simply too small to be capable of devouring nearby matter. BH's are no different than any other form of matter that interacts gravitationally with other matter. If you were on a ship whizzing around a BH outside a certain radius, it'd be absolutely no more dangerous (less so actually due to heat) than if you were orbitting a star or even a planet.

Apart from that fact that you are confusing the issue between stellar holes and Planck size B-H only adds to the general misunderstanding, as for me I think I would rather not get within a light year of any B-H as the gamma and X-ray radiations given off by it would fry anything getting closer.

However your claim that they are too small to chow down is wrong. The physicists claim that micro B-H will self vaporize nearly instantly is based on the fact that these micro holes do feed on the quantum foam which are the virtual particles that makeup space-time. These virtual particles are created constantly as a positive and negative energy pairs that normally self annihilate nearly as soon as they are formed. However, in the presence of a B-H the negative energy particle is expected to be drawn into the hole (because negative energy particles are not allowed to exists in our universe) while the positive particle is expelled thus changing from virtual to real and becoming “Hawking” radiation. The accumulation of these negative particles within the hole is what is expected to destroy the B-H which is comprised of positive energy. Therefore in order for the micro B-H to destroy itself before it grows, it has to consume negative energy therefore even though its very small it does start eating as soon as its born.

Now think of some the things that can go wrong, just to name a few:

1. There may not even be negative energy, its something that quantum physicists believe must exists but there is no solid proof.
2. These negative particles may get stuck on the micro B-H event horizon and never be able to penetrate to the actual core of the singularity where they could do their work.
3. The B-H may also consume both particles thus allowing it to grow without even contacting real matter.
4. At the event horizon time slows down and may even stop, how can a physicists predict the time require for the B-H to disintegrate.
5. What would happen if the singularity is has no polarity? The entering negative energy particles could also lose their polarity thus adding to the mass of the hole.

These are just some of the problems I see that could happen, I’m sure that others can come up with just as many more possible scenarios. The whole point here is that the people that are working on this don’t actually know what will happen so they are taking this exploratory route hoping to get some answers.

Did you know that the two most basic corner stone theories of Physics being Quantum Mechanics and Einstein’s Relativity are totally incompatible with each other? One or both of these two theories has major problems with it. And its these same theories that the particle physicists are using to explain the workings of black holes. I don’t feel very comforted by this fact and I think that most humans should worry as well.

Doomsday under debate

Al Gonzalez, Salt Lake City, UT — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 22:15:49 GMT

When we send people into space they undergo psychological testing to see how fit they are for the mission. How many of the scientists have undergone this kind of testing? One psycho could cause a catastrophe just by creating a sub-routine in a program that would cause the experiment to fail. Has anyone sought to answer this question before?

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S Shaw, Pottstown PA — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 03:40:07 GMT

Phillip Clamatas said,
"Physicists say that a micro B-H should self detonate within a few billionths of a second, however a B-H does not live by our time scale, a few billionths of a second for the hole may be a few hours for us, long enough to annihilate the planet."

The time dialation effect of a black hole is only relative to particles/molecules/thingies that are near the event horizon. To an entity observing a particle being consumed by a MBH it would be nearly instantaneous. The MBH would not see any time dialation effect and would evaporate in a few billionths of a second from the point of view of a particle even a millimeter away from the MBH. A particle that was within a fraction of a nM of the event horizon might see the time dialation effect, But the TDE is only sensed by the doomed particle.

Doomsday under debate

Philip J. Calamatas — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 12:45:04 GMT

I’ m afraid that Mr. S Shaw you have it backwards.

Any intimate object being consumed by a black hole will not experience a Time Dilation Effect (TDE), as far as its concerned it will more than likely accelerate towards the singularity where it will be shredded by the intense gravitational tidal effects before it gets there (that’s the predicted outcome for any object going in). However, an outside observer would see the object ever more slowly approach the event horizon (decelerate) all the while it’s image will progressively red-shift the photons leaving it. In fact we could wait until the end of time and never actually see the object enter BH, though we might see it flatten out into a two dimensional representation of the object that will eventually cover the entire surface of the event horizon (Holographic Theory).

All of this boils down to the fact that an object (or particle) going into a BH experiences no TDE but an outside observer does see the TDE on the object.

Now this is expected of stellar holes but dose the same effect also pertain to MBH? If it does then we can also make a statement that the MBH could remain stable while its consuming a particle since just like the stellar BH there will never have enough time to see anything actually pass through the event horizon, and under this condition we could now also make an assumption that the MBH will not vaporize.

Therefore a possible conclusion is that the MBH could have an extreme TDE for those outside of its influence watching it at first eat sub-atomic particles then moving up to matter and finally to the entire planet, at which time we would no-longer be an outside observer but rather an intimate observer watching ourselves accelerate towards the singularity experiencing no TDE and passing through the event horizon as if it were not there.

The only thing that could prevent this would be the consumption of negative energy at a rate superior to the rate of consumption of positive energy. The negative energy would be extracted from the virtual particle pairs that makes up the quantum foam that particle physicists predict pervades all of space-time (all matter is positive energy and negative energy is forbidden to exist in our universe for extended periods of time).

Doomsday under debate

Anthony — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 18:59:28 GMT

What, exactly, is a micro black hole? How is a giant gravity well fromed from the collapse of a star ( and, mind you, our sun isn't even a large enough star to even become one ) to be formed from some sub-atomic particles? What, none of you could afford tickets to this year's Star Trek convention?

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Walter Privacy — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:43:17 GMT

Anyone ever read this si-fi book?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrice_Upon_a_Time
Reminds me of this.

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Daniel, Las Vegas, NV — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 20:15:47 GMT

Murphy's law is an adage in Western culture that broadly states that if anything can go wrong, it will. "If there's more than one possible outcome of a job or task, and one of those outcomes will result in disaster or an undesirable consequence, then somebody will do it that way." It is most often cited as "Whatever can go wrong, will go wrong" (or, alternately, "Whatever can go wrong will go wrong, and at the worst possible time, in the worst possible way").

its true science has brought us so many good things. so many things, in fact that we take for granted most of them. unfortunately science has also given us so many reasons to fear for our lives, health, and safety. in many states you cant be outside in the life giving sun too long or else that sun will take it away... because of science. in arizona people are being born deformed and cancer prone, the very water they drink delivers the death that kills them... because of science. we live in a world that is on the potential verge of a nuclear war... because of science. now there are many good things that science has brought us, for sure, but so much of todays science is so new that we dont truly have a full grasp of what the end consequences of all our actions are going to be.

whether or not you believe in the existence of God, you have to agree that the earth and our universe is special, and that it was not created by our hands. you also would have to agree that there is so much to that creation that we do not know, and you would also have to agree that no one person or group of people can ever even hope to know all or think of all possible consequences and outcomes of something that happened so many billions of years ago. the Bible does mention that in order to progress in life you must have a strong foundation. with this foundation you can overcome all obstacles.

we have so many problems in our world today that it will take hundreds of years to solve all of them, and yet already we are reaching out to other worlds. its like a child stacking chairs and boxes and books on top of each other in order to get to the cookie jar on top of the fridge, only hes to too young to realize that if he falls he could die. we are that kid and our make-shift tower is wobbling too-and-fro but our eyes are so filled with the thought of those cookies that this fatal wobble is only in the back of our minds. there is so much we dont know, and even what we do know is at best just this side of controlled chaos. if we are ever to explore the greater reaches of our universe we must first get our house in order. now to close, ill leave you with this thought, to paraphrase an earlier comment in this discussion, "when dealing with the primordial forces that created our universe, i would rather err on the side of caution until i know more before proceeding down a path rife with the possibility cataclysm."

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Mark The All Knowing, London, UK — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 22:27:03 GMT

I think we're safe as long as the LHC is off on around 31 Dec 2012. You know, doomsday date and such.
;)

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Zoe McCar, Plymouth, IN — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 23:04:04 GMT

Well, I for one, would love to hear more from Chris Doe in regards to, "data collected from experiments performed there in 2017 were used to develop a theory of time travel that finally bore fruit in 2091."
It sounds fascinating... I wonder if he knows anything about the Montauk Project?

Doomsday under debate

Bryan Alvarez,Fontana, California — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 07:36:29 GMT

Turn it on already! If something goes wrong no one will know we will all be dead..but if it goes right it will be a great advancement in science!

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Joe, Hobbs, NM — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 15:14:01 GMT

This science project should be conducted in space in a far far away place...

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WM, LA CA — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 04:26:53 GMT

If I could just create a bubble of nothingness to measure everything else against then I will have the answer to how everthing else was created.

and poof went the world.... WOW I have my answer.

Doomsday under debate

Universe User — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 17:50:10 GMT

Perhaps we can call it "Piercing the Veil" or, if copyrights permit, "Hellboy III"....
What a big toy for junk scientists.
ONE thing that doesn't get made right, (COUNT on it), and the same thing happens that happened to Tesla's energy-transmission experiment - - an unintentional ACCIDENT. OOOOOOOPS!
Regardless, it is an unreasonable waste, just as most human endeavors.

Doomsday under debate

Michael, Johannesburg, South Africa. — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 06:27:27 GMT

Switch the sucker on, I don't see what the big deal is. If we die, we die. Had to happen sometime.

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Tim Rommes, Washington, UT — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 04:13:50 GMT

S. Shaw and Philip J. Calamatas,
The particle entering the event horizon would do so in an amount of "absolute time." If the particle was wearing a watch, an outside observer would see that the watch was turning very slowly. As the particle looked back up at the observer, it would notice that his watch was spinning so fast it couldn't possibly be read. The outside observer would notice that the particle took 15 years to cross the event horizon (observer's time) and also note that the particles watch had only advanced 3 seconds. The particle would note that it only had 3 seconds, not enough time to do anything about disapearing into the black hole, but strangely, the guy watching turned old and gray. Now really, to us a particle would disapear too fast to even try to time, but to the particle it would happen even faster.
That is the time dilation effect. An object in high gravity experiences less time than an object in low gravity for the same absolute time. Therefore things appear to happen faster when you're in high gravity.
A man practices a dance routine. His timing is impeccable. He goes to the moon. He dances his dance. To him the timing was perfect. You observe from earth through you 13' telescope, nice. To you he went fast.

Doomsday under debate

Baron Von Kerplunk — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 10:52:24 GMT

if they're so sure that its safe themselves then it might be a good time to release that 6year long report they keep mentioning.

If not, heres my plan:

http://nodnodwinkwink.blogspot.com/2008/09/cern-and-end-of-world.html

Doomsday under debate

Alice, Boston, MA, USA — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 05:02:55 GMT

You can 'delay' progress... but you can't stop it.

How long do you want to delay the future?
1 year?
10 years?
100 years?

What did you gain?