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Quantum fluctuations in space, science, exploration and other cosmic fields... served up regularly by MSNBC.com science editor Alan Boyle since 2002.

Alan Boyle covers the physical sciences, anthropology, technological innovation and space science and exploration for MSNBC.com. He is a winner of the AAAS Science Journalism Award, the NASW Science-in-Society Award and other honors; a contributor to "A Field Guide for Science Writers"; and a member of the board of the Council for the Advancement of Science Writing.

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Fill 'er up ... in space?

Posted: Friday, July 31, 2009 5:10 PM by Alan Boyle


NASA
An artist's conception from 1971 shows an orbital fuel depot in action.

The panel reviewing NASA's long-range plans is giving a new boost to the old idea of setting up orbital fueling stations for spaceflight. If the space agency and the White House go down that route, it would mark a dramatic change in direction for future journeys beyond Earth orbit.

Some would say that's just what the nation's space effort needs.

The idea of setting up a permanent infrastructure for travel in deep space was floated on Thursday during a hearing in Cocoa Beach, Fla., conducted by the Review of U.S. Human Space Flight Plans Committee.

Panel members who have been focusing on future travel beyond Earth orbit spoke favorably of the fuel-depot idea, and it's likely to appear as one of the options in a final report that's due by the end of August. It will be up to NASA and the White House to decide which option to pursue and how much money to spend. (The current ballpark figure is $80 billion over 10 years.)

Basically, here's how a fuel-depot system would change the spaceflight situation:

Spaceships currently have to carry all the fuel they'd need for an entire trip at once. That was the case for the Apollo-Saturn missions of the 1960s and the space shuttle missions of the past 28 years.

If fuel depots were built in orbit, however, spaceships coming up from Earth's "gravity well" could fill 'er up and continue their journey with a full tank of gas (or, say, liquid oxygen and hydrogen). Alternatively, you could design a different sort of transfer vehicle, optimized for making the trip from one orbital spaceport to another rather than launching and landing. 

That would lighten the load for launch vehicles leaving Earth, since they wouldn't have to carry all the fuel for a long trip at once. And it might reduce the need to develop a new heavy-lift vehicle like the Ares V. You could get by instead with a smaller booster, launched empty and fueled up in orbit.

"It really is a game changer," Jeff Greason, chief executive officer of California-based XCOR Aerospace and a member of the review panel, was quoted as saying in a New York Times report on the hearing.

The idea has been floated before. As the Apollo program was winding down, planners at NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Alabama touched upon orbital fuel depots as a key piece of space infrastructure for deep-space flights. At the time, the space shuttle was little more than a twinkle in the space agency's eye.

"An orbital modular propellant storage depot, supplied periodically by the space shuttle or Earth-to-orbit fuel tankers, would be critical in making available large amounts of fuel to various orbital vehicles and spacecraft," NASA said in 1971. (The artwork above conceptualized how the system might look.)

NASA's space ambitions didn't pan out the way those planners planned. The cost of building the infrastructure for those deep-space trips was deemed too high, with too little payoff. As a result, no manned spacecraft has gone beyond Earth orbit since Apollo was shut down.

Five years ago, when President George W. Bush announced a new goal of returning to the moon by 2020, NASA turned to an "Apollo on steroids" approach that passed up orbital refueling. The plan did call for a maneuver that would link up moon-bound crews with their fueled-up transfer vehicles, however.

Now the Bush-era vision is being reviewed by Obama-era officials, and many of the previously laid plans are open for discussion again. Panel members laid out five scenarios for future trips beyond Earth orbit (which I previewed earlier this month):

  • Lunar base: Basically the current return-to-the-moon plan, which calls for setting up a permanent base.

  • Lunar global: No manned base, but a combination of quick visits to the moon ("sorties")  plus robotic missions.

  • Moon to Mars: Lunar landings conducted primarily as rehearsals for Mars landings.

  • Mars first: Just focus on eventual Mars landings, don't return to the moon.

  • Flexible path: Start out by sending astronauts to platforms that are at stable points spread from Earth orbit to lunar orbit to Martian orbit (on Mars' moons, for example), plus near-Earth objects. Then send robots from those manned platforms to the surfaces of other worlds (down into the "gravity wells"). Don't send astronauts down onto the moon or Mars right off, but see how things go.

The last option sounds most conducive to the fuel-depot approach, and it also meshes best with the international space station's current role. In fact, Transterrestrial Musings' Rand Simberg suggests that using the space station as a fuel-depot test bed is such an attractive idea it might be worth the cost of changing the station's orbit.

Simberg also links to a host of other commentary about the panel hearing in general and the fuel-depot idea in particular. One of the best links goes to a white paper at Selenian Boondocks discussing how the concept could boost American industry and commercial space development. You'll find still more to sink your teeth into over at RLV and Space Transport News as well as the Space Coalition Blog.

For a skeptical view of the fuel-depot idea, check out Rob Coppinger's comments on the Hyperbola blog.

In addition to the "how" and "where" questions surrounding human spaceflight, the panel members took on the question of "why" - something we've talked about in the past. (You do remember the five E's, don't you?)

Here's how MIT aerospace professor Edward Crawley answered the "why" question during Thursday's hearing:

"Our ultimate objective should be viewed as the exploration and eventual extension of human civilization within the solar system. We have to keep our eye on the big prize. This will take a long time, but the time has come. The political alignment is here to allow this to be a goal for our nation, and it's a goal worthy of a great nation."

XCOR's Greason added a kicker to that comment, according to Irene Klotz's account for Discovery.com: "I know this sounds terribly ambitious and dramatic, but if that is not the point of human spaceflight … then what the hell are we doing?" Greason asked.

What the heck should we be doing in space? I'm going to be a bit out of the loop this weekend, discussing this subject and many others at the SpoCon science-fiction convention in Spokane - but if you leave a comment below, I'll try to add it to the mix as soon as I get a chance.


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Comments

A space fuel depot is a good idea.  The way NASA of today thinks is to put it in a "BAD" orbit like in the orbit the ISS is in. That is the reason why when there were 4 Shuttles, Colombia never visited the ISS.
What would do a lot more to open the space frontier is for someone to make people understand that the industrial learning curve applies to launch services.

http://jimbowery.blogspot.com/2009/07/ive-been-following-space-solar-power.html
1971 artist conception, eh?

How many times have I repeated the 'still on the drawing board from the 50s' comment?

Things must be moving ahead faster than I figgered...all the way ahead to the 70s...whoopdy doo.

Gaia Two is Solar Powered while in Space, self sustaining, recovereable, and recycleable.

Rocketeering Rules, I guess...friggin' Peenemundeites!

http://gaiatwo.blogspot.com
I like the concept of going somewhere for a reason that anyone can identify with; human presence somewhere other that Earth. We seem stuck it the 60's doing things we have already done that were suppose to get us the capability to go out into the solar system to places like Mars. The capability and expertiese is there, the will is lacking. We seem fixated on near space & the moon when outer space is there to experience. The technolgy exists to use concepts like fueling depots. Let's fill her up and see what's out there!
If we do not pursue the goal of space travel throughout and beyond our solar system we are condemning ourselves to our own demise.  It is time we as a race evolve beyond our end times religions with their self fulfilling apocolyptic prophecies and grasp infinity
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the orbital refuel surely is a great idea, but (excluding the refuel of the Altair) NOT for the ESAS plan, not now
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it adds very much costs and complicate everything without save money nor time
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I've already explained that, in my VERY DETAILED Suggestion #09 for the HSF Committee:  "absolutely avoid to adopt (for now) any kind of orbital refuel"
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you can read it here: http://www.ghostnasa.com/posts/045suggestions09.html
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the main problem is that there is NO advantage or saving to send (both) "dry" vehicles and (separately) its propellent in Space, until the launch-costs will not fall to a fraction of today's EELVs $15+ million per ton to LEO
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this option will become useful and real ONLY when (someday) the commercial old/new.space companies will be able to send tons of fuel in Space at less than $1 million per ton!
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for now, the orbital refuel, is ONLY a fascinating but absolutely NOT VIABLE option, something that NASA must study, but don't apply soon
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Orbiting fuel stations would need to carry more than fuel. Solid fuel in boosters complete with new nozzles
would be the desired method of refueling, along with Liquid Hydrogen and Oxygen for steering purposes. This
would require a high degree of standardization for
quick refueling and booster replacement.
Then there is the detriment of lost velocity to stop
at the 'filling-station' and re-accelerating to far
off targets. Sounds pretty daunting and wasteful!
Actually what is needed is another source of thrust,
don't ya think?
i love it!! im for exploration first step start is always hard ..getting someone to fit the bill is another step .billion dollars dont seem much compared to the way we spent on taxes. my own thinking is always diffrent from the first step tho to me we are still in a model t era , and what goes up must come down has changed a bit. we have not sent any life forms out to see the effects it has on them to date ..besides the moon everything looks okay.
my question is if this is for the future genrations what happens if they find a better way to travel? just by using magnets could be a sourse..could it??by turning a craft into self powered ship  like the subs under the sea.... im just saying the future is an unknown even in space.
and the saying is, very good ideas come from very bad ideas
Space exploration should be viewed as a whole earth project, including cooperation with Europe, Japan, Russia, China, and whom else would like to contribute money, talent, or other necessary resources. It could be a great way for countries to begin to cooperate for peaceful uses of the worlds resources. Cooperation and not competition should be the goal.
I thank its a good idea for a refueling station.  I also thank it would be a good idea to have a shuttle left in orbit with a extra fuel tank in part of the cargo bay so that it could go to higher orbits for satellite repair.
I thank its a good idea for a refueling station.  I also thank it would be a good idea to have a shuttle left in orbit with a extra fuel tank in part of the cargo bay so that it could go to higher orbits for satellite repair.
Refueling Station? Remember, you have to shoot up both the fuel containers and the fueling station, then shoot up the rocket to be refueled. Very inefficient. Having Orion and Altair sent up on different vehicles will complicate things enough, adding several more and then having them all dock in orbit at the right time will be a nightmare.
 The depot only makes sense if somehow, magically, you find a significant source of rocket fuel that can be gathered from earth orbit.  
Building the infrastructure pathway for commercial space launches to repair and re-fuel satellites will essentially save hundreds of millions of government and private sector dollars in the long-term. It is but one way for spacefaring nations to open up the New Frontier to LEO, the Moon, Mars and the NEO asteroids.

IF Ares-1 goes forward, perhaps using the liquid tanks on-orbit for both commerical and civil space may be a viable option to reconsider. The used tanks could have value in orbit.
1-way trips to Mars
send as many people as we can, send as much supplies as we can
When the pioneers get there to colonize Mars they will figure out all kinds of solutions for survival.
Maybe eventually you could get the fuel from the moon, and send it to Earth orbit. It might be cheaper in the long run.

[ALAN ADDS: Dennis, I think you've hit on something that might make sense, and something I meant to mention in the original posting. Imagine a solar- or nuclear-powered factory on the moon that converts regolith and ice into fuel and building materials. The fuel is shipped up from the bottom of the moon's relatively shallow "gravity well," then transferred to Earth orbit. That may be the best way to make the moon pay ... assuming that the infrastructure is put in place.]
gaetano marano - ghostNASA.com:  You're right, there would be no advantage to sending a dry vehicle into orbit.  But since most of the fuel is used getting TO orbit, how about a vehivle with enough fuel to reach orbit, then refill the tank?  You wouldn't have to lift the fuel that was to be used in space with the same booster, which would allow larger payloads.  And, for manned flight, the fuel launches wouldn't require life support systems, so could carry much more fuel on the same launch vehicle, compared to a manned launch.  It probably wouldn't be cost-effective for going to the Moon and back, but for Mars, it could allow the use of much smaller launch vehicles.

And, there MAY be mass-production savings, if we use more, but smaller, rockets, rather than a few large ones.
There are plenty of Davy Crocketts ready to settle space when it becomes possible. Elbowroom!
As one of the two illustrators on Freeman Dyson's original Orion nuclear pulse engine project I feel it's time to take another long look at its potential before somenine beats us to it..
In-space refueling is an overdue idea...

http://nextbigfuture.com/2008/01/boeing-propellant-depot-useful-space.html

http://www.transterrestrial.com/?p=20686

But...

"...I also thank it would be a good idea to have a shuttle left in orbit with a extra fuel tank in part of the cargo bay so that it could go to higher orbits for satellite repair."

Enough with the ides of turning the Space Shuttle from the launch vehicle it's supposed to be, into something it simply is not and cannot be.

With *no* payload and maximum OMS propellant, an orbiter can get to about 600 miles above Earth. That's it. Period. Anything more distant should be done by something *designed* to operate at higher orbits and possibly as far as the Moon. This is jst the sort of craft that would benefit from refueling in LEO (and possibly the Lagrange points and/or Lunar orbit).
Over a hundred fuel tanks have been just thrown away after each shuttle mission. That would have been an great start to build the fueling depot. It has been such a waste to destroy every one of them after all the costs of manufacturing and lift-off.
The basic idea of refueling depots in Earth orbit is a good one, but the current approach is not.  Having to launch the fuel into orbit negates any launch savings realized in later launches of partially fueled spacecraft. The ideal way to do this would be to create the fuel in orbit. For example, in earth orbit the atmosphere is quite thin but it is there and oxygen and hydrogen could be scooped up, cooled, compressed and stored for future use.
gaetano is the only person here who has done his homework.
A.P.Garcia - The main reason that Colombia never visited the ISS was that it did not have the docking port to allow it to visit!!  It was the only shuttle which did not have the docking port.  
The only way that it would be feasable to have a fueling station in space, would be if you could manufacture the fuel in space, not send it from earth.

@Negav Kalanaga
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yes, it was an idea proposed by Boeing, but all these ideas based on orbital refuel may come true ONLY when companies like an "Exxon Galactic" will offer very cheap "Space-Gasoline" in orbit... :)
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I believe that the orbital refuel technology is a PERFECT research (and a future profitable job) for new.space companies, but NOT for NASA that always has too high R&D and space-hardware costs!!!
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so, guys, START NOW develop and build your SpaceGasStation, send in orbit your SpaceGasoline at VERY LOW PRICE and you can be SURE that NASA, ESA, Russia, China, etc. will BUY it!!! :)
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@Frank Glover
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sorry, Frank, I haven't read your post before write my comment
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also, orbital refuel is completely useless for a Mars mission since I believe that it can't be accomplished with big chemical engines (that need big tanks and huge amounts of fuel) but ONLY with smaller, efficient, hi-Isp nuclear engines!
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Having to make two launches, one for the fuel and another for the spacecraft, means two rockets and more fuel needed and higher costs than a "single shot" approach. The only way a "fuel depot" makes any sense is if a high efficiency high powered launcher, like an electromagnetic railgun, is used to launch the fuel at a much higher specific impulse than can be used for manned launches. Even then it is kinda iffy.
Two different kinds of vehicles are needed for space exploration: 1) planet to space to planet, 2) space to space.

The design of a vehicle that must escape/re-enter gravity for a short distance is significantly different than one that must travel long distances in zero gravity, in structure and cost.  The first one carries personnel (and possibly fuel) from Earth to some kind of (optionally re-fueling) near-orbit space station, the second one carries personnel between planets.  (Upon arrival at a non-Earth planet, of course, a lander is needed, but that is much smaller/cheaper than the entire craft.)
I would be most impressed if the announcement at the end of this is that we will be doing it all. Moon, Mars and other deep space ventures. I mean everything, including landings and base deveopment. Now that would be truly be bold and historic. Expand the NASA budget to 25 or 30 billion plus per-year, which is where it should rightfully be in the scheme of things. A still trivial amount of the budget,especially considering the payoff in both scientific achievement and engineering development. Technological progress is always stimulated most when we are challenged to do more than the merely neccessary. We have wasted two generations, the time to begin moving forward in leaps once again is now.
Having a refueling station in orbit makes more sense than direct launches from Earth.  The main reason is simple.  To get to orbit you have to boost your vehicle to 17,000 mph.  To reach escape velocity is 25,000 mph.  That little 8,000 mph makes a huge difference in the SIZE and WEIGHT of the launch vehicle,  Saturn V was a monster in size, and limited in the crew size and cargo carrying capability.  The space shuttle can deliver up to 60 tons of cargo, so what if we could refuel it with LOX and LH2 on orbit?  It would take a minor redesign of the External Tank attachments and an orbiting FULL external tank to give the shuttle a crack at going to the moon.  Send a full tank to orbit the moon and you have deep space capability with existing hardware.
We need to go to the moon in a significant way, with systems that can haul a lot of cargo and people, to learn the lessons that we can only learn away from near earth, then we go to mars knowing how to survive a long, long way from home.
Didn't von Braun work this all out around 1950?  Although there are a few assumptions that have since been heavily revised/disproven, the overall program he laid out is STILL the most sound plan for getting to the moon and Mars.
When driving to Vegas from LA, most people stop on the way to fill up the car.  Yes some cars can go all the way, but very few cars can go there and back.  Somewhere you stop and fill up your gas tank.  You could if you want fill up your car with fuel with 5 gallon drums and then you can do.  But guess what--that leaves very little room for anything else expect fuel.  NASA way has been to launch vicheals with nothing but fuel--but would would happen if you can buy fuel at LEO--then you could take alot more of the stuff that you really want.  Guess what--a fuel stop\space depot is not sexy.  Spending money and launching things into space is more sexy.  But you need that infrastructure if you want to go anywhere else.  How do people think CA was settled? We built the infrastructure--trains and the west was won.  We need to do the same for space.  

People complain that fuel will not be cheap.  That is correct it will not be cheap to start, but that will change.  When companies see that other companies are making money, guess what--there will be more comptition and the price will go down.  Even if the price does not go down, sometimes it is choice of paying a hugh amount for fuel or leaving something behind--people sometimes would rather pay for the fuel.  

The Direct team (Directlauncher.com) even has fuel depots as part of their plan to get the US to the moon.  The best part of that plan, make the europeans pay for the fuel in exchange for a seat to the moon!

There has been alot of work over the years for space depots--NASA was meant to offer a Space Prize regarding it, but could not find $5 million--I guess Constellation eat the money for its morning snack!  Boeing has presented some papers on space depots and most people think that its time for space depots.  The ISS is in the wrong orbit for a depot--it would be cheaper to just buy a Bigalow module and tender the depot if needed.

Space used to be exclusive to governments, that is now changing!!  NASA needs to change with the times as well, or it will be left behind.
After reading I noticed that an item or two was missing from the discussion. What about using a Mag-Lev device to be used to escape or "neutralize" the gravity well. There has been much research done in this area and the energy to operate it could come from a Broussard polywell reactor (see U.S. patent 5,160,695). Also, a couple of years ago 2 scientists came up with the theory for an anti gravity device that was based upon the neutralization of gravitons which has already been discussed and several theories presented preliminary studies that they do exist. Also, based on theories from Einstein that if you can neutralize the effects of Mass it would take 0 energy to move it from point A to point B in 0 time (General and Special theories of relativity). Maybe we are all looking at this, including NASA, from the wrong perspective. We are right now looking at expensive and inefficeint ways of doing what needs to be done. Maybe a different approach should be investigated, based on the research thus presented. Why carry fuel if it can be created internally in half the space and weight. For deep space flight from the inner and outer planets to beyond, we are going to need a different approach in regards to the fueling issues. Spacecraft in the near future (5 to 15 years) are going to need a minimum of two different types of drive strategies. One of the strategies mentioned was a nuclear pulse drive. The other type of drive could be an ion drive that uses local space matter. You would only have to use the pulse drive only when there is not enough matter to convert. Using these type of drives or something similar to what was earlier mentioned you could maybe achieve the goals wanted. In theory, if you have enough energy to overcome mass by a sufficeint amount times the speed of light squared you could go anywhere (E=MCsquared). Energy and Time equal 1. You can check my findings and I insist that you do. It has taken many years of study. I hope hope you are willing to take the Time.  
"Lunar global: No manned base, but a combination of quick visits to the moon ("sorties")  plus robotic missions."
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this is a low cost robotic alternative to the VSE that I've called "VME - Vision for Moonrovers Exploration" and proposed/published in my October 16, 2005 in this article:
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http://www.gaetanomarano.it/moonrovers/moonrovers.html
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also, I've posted the idea in 2005 on some space forum and blog since it was/is very much cheaper than the manned VSE/ESAS and may give incredible results for the money invested exploring nearly ALL the Moon surface in a few years!
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just imagine the Spirit and Opportunity job but multiplied thousands times!
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about one month after my "VME" article, in 2005, I've proposed also a "Moonrovers Prize Competition"...
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http://www.gaetanomarano.it/moonprize/moonprize.html
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but, unfortunately, 20 months AFTER my article, Google said everywhere that it is its own """original""" idea... :(
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http://www.ghostnasa.com/posts/008moonprize.html
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I like Paul Nicols idea of scooping up Hydrogen and Oxygen from orbit at the edge of the atmosphere. Traveling at those speeds you would not need a big intake to take in a huge amount. The orbit would create drag and you would need to produce fuel to sustain it and hopefully enough to produce more. It sounds do-able but then what does it take to seperate hydrogen and oxygen from the air. Anyway Paul I like the way you think. It's these kind of thoughts that lead to future science.
Everyone who is saying that Prop depots are inefficent, unless you use in-space resources.  Long term, it is preferable.  However, in the short term, there is a benefit by doing it this way - reduced launch costs, for *all* of launches.  The amount of launches you need for prop depots is high enough that it allows you to bring online systems and operations that are much more geared towards mass production, or safe and reliable continous operations.  In otherwords, this would mean a major push towards cheap and reliable space access.  And, by extention, it also allows you to do more and better operations (whether its science, R&D, exploration, whatever), because you are lowering launch costs.

Finally, a comment directed at Mr. marano - Learn what Tech Readiness Level is, and about the Orbital Express, and about ATV servicing the ISS, particularly as it relates to storable propellant depots.  Prop depots are not like space elevators - storable fuel depots have a TRL of 9, and cryo fuel depots (the "big one") has a TRL of 5-7.  

Finally, if you have a prop depot, you don't need Ares V - you can do it with CURRENT rockets.  Ares I is gone, Ares V is gone, no need for Shuttle-C, no need for Direct - all of that development goes away.  
Without a more cost-effective LTO system, this may as well be pie-in-the-sky. My thing for transorbital craft is NTR's using water for reaction mass.
I agree with the author of this article when she said what the hell are we doing in space.     We are eager to spend another 80 BILLION dollars on another space boondoggle while millions of our citizens are running out of unemployment compensation.     How can this be justified in a civilized society?      
Interesting article on the economics of space travel.  Right now the idea of a space refueling station does not make econmic sense because we just don't have enough deep space traffic going on to make it economically viable.  Someday when we've got a more robust deep space program going on with regular flights to the moon and Mars then it makes sense to have a refueling station.  Plus we need to engineer our future rockets with that space refueling concept in mind, right now it's not.

First we need to ditch Clueless George's aqrrogant and ignorant idea about going it alone back to the moon and on to Mars.  We don't need another space race, we need to go with other countries along the lines of how we did the International Space Station.  That would spread around the huge cost among many nations which would make it economically feasible.
There are at least 3 big reasons to explore space:

1) It is important work to lay the foundation for the eventual need for people to live in places elsewhere than Earth. At some point down the road, our Earth won't be sufficient for humans anymore. Whether the reason is sheer over population, or if we continue to damage our environment and strip the Earths resources, eventually we will have a pressing need to spread out to other locations in space.

2) There are tremendous natural resources in space that would be of great interest to mine. Currently the Earths resource are being tapped and a growing rate, and many of these resources are in countries where politics complicate things. If we could find a way to economically mine in space, this could be a huge gamer changer.

3) Lastly, exploring space is a catalyst for innovation that leads to benefits for people everywhere. How many things in our lives that we used everyday can be trace back to NASA and the space program? Medical imaging, smoke detectors and cordless tools are just three examples -- there are hundreds more.
I was thinking the same as TW from Portland:  Ignoring the additional propellant required to pull the Shuttles fuel tanks into orbit.  If there had been only 1% of fuel left in the 'empty' tanks NASA could have had 127% of an available shuttle fuel in orbit already.  (There normal safety margin for an aerospace program is 5-10% safety margin.)

Currently, unless there is presidential edict or commercially-sponsored project, a fuel station will not happen.  The costs to launch fuel seperately far outweighs any benefit that can be gotten.  

Until there is a multi-generational plan for space exploration you can forget refueling stations in space.  If you want to perform any serious space-exploration you better start learning Mandarin or Hindi.  When the long term plan can change every four years ..........
How about smaller fuel canisters thrown into orbit from magnetic rail launch sites and collected in orbit.  Canisters gathered empty and flown back to earth in shuttle like reentry vehicles. No fuel expended up or down?
How would you keep the refueling stations fueled? In other words, What happens when the refueling station runs out of fuel or will it somehow regenerate itself?
You still need to get the fuel into space.

Whether you've got computer-guided or manned missions strapped on top of the thing, you're still going to spend the money and the fuel to get all the rest of that fuel into orbit.

I get the idea, but I dont understand how this is going to be game-changing.
From: http://www.geocities.com/scripturalphysics/4v4a/PwrPnt.html

"The U. S. government's "visionary" space exploration policy is totally uninspiring and has dampened enthusiasm for this topic. Using rockets to explore space is like using tin-can telephones for long distance communications, or using steam engines to power aircraft"

From http://www.geocities.com/scripturalphysics/4v4a/ADVPROP.html  

"If not us, someone else will lead in the exploration, utilization and, ultimately, the commercialization of space, as we sit idly by."
(A Journey to Inspire, Innovate and Discover [by using obsolescent technology],   p. 12, June 2004, http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/60736main_M2M_report_small.pdf )

What we need to go to Mars is a completely new technology: antigravity or what NASA has called "propellantless propulsion". It is a technology that is on the verge of being born, and parts and pieces of it have already been demonstrated. See: http://www.geocities.com/scripturalphysics/4v4a/ADVPROP.html#MotionCancellers  

Another needed technology is advanced atomic energy which would supply abundant power to a spacecraft propulsion system. This too is on the horizon, as there are indications that there are materials that can be fabricated to have a "power density of 100,000 watts per cubic centimeter. For comparison, a fuel rod in a nuclear reactor has a power density of about 500 to 1000 watts per cubic centimeter." See: http://www.geocities.com/scripturalphysics/qm/issues.html#ColdFusion

You won't find any of this in the popular press. We are still waiting for a "breakthrough", not so much in technology, but in the general public realizing that such things are possible, and are even being done in the laboratory. If the United States does not develop this technology, you can BE SURE other countries will!

Re: Paul Nichols, Indianapolis, IN
Idea for new experiment: build a polar orbiting satellite that can create a magnetic bubble or extended magnetic field. As it flies over the poles, where material ionized by the solar wind is greatest, see what kinds of stuff can be gathered, and in what amounts. Has anyone tried this already?
Maybe I play WAY WAY too many video games...   But has anyone come up with the idea to build infrastructure on the moon, have a massive solar array to take the Suns energy to convert the water, or take some of the other elements and break them down, or even mining nuclear material from the moon (seeing as how its made of the same stuff as Earth and avoiding the green peace people from protesting launching nuclear material into space)

The infrastructure would require huge silos or storage areas, landing pads, and everything to connect them, then we build a sort of "space highway" and have a couple launches a day from the moon into the spots where the Earth and the moons gravitational pull are at their minimum (I forgot the name of these points).  With the moons low gravity well we could have huge tanker ships (built on the moon with moon material).  

If we really want to get ambitious, we could build huge ships in space with moon materials as well. We have the technology, we have the know how, we have our "Yankee ingenuity" to adapt and thrive, we just DO NOT have the will or the balls to do anything that might endanger peoples lives.  

If a country stops exploring, a country will fail, in these days exploring is building technology, but if Columbus stopped the first time he was told no where would we be? And if we really cant muster the political will get NASA to open its doors to private companies and let the private sector do it.  WE NEED to go beyond NEO and the moon but the moon would be a great stop!
How much of an enginerring challenge would it have
been to utilize the external fuel tanks of the shuttle, which would have been 100+ tanks to a major infrastructure?  One which could have started a long but steady build-up to say a spoke like construction spinnig like a bisycle wheel to create artificial gravity. The central axis for zero g research and the spokes for living quarters and research and work shops for the construction projects to modify this superstructure.  With artificial gravity and a propulsion system the entire structure along with scientists and engineers could leave earth orbit on their journey to wherever they decide. Some of the tanks could carry water, a couple of greenhouses.  With 100+ tanks and some Nasa ensite into long term benefits (28 years ago) we might have been a lot closer to our goal of exploration of Mars and beyond.


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