ABOUT COSMIC LOG

Quantum fluctuations in space, science, exploration and other cosmic fields... served up regularly by MSNBC.com science editor Alan Boyle since 2002.

Alan Boyle covers the physical sciences, anthropology, technological innovation and space science and exploration for MSNBC.com. He is a winner of the AAAS Science Journalism Award, the NASW Science-in-Society Award and other honors; a contributor to "A Field Guide for Science Writers"; and a member of the board of the Council for the Advancement of Science Writing.

Check out Boyle's biography or send a message to Cosmic Log via cosmiclog@msnbc.com.



Mars rovers on the march

Posted: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 7:00 PM by Alan Boyle


NASA / JPL-Caltech
Spirit surveys its tracks, with a rock
stuck near its right wheel. Click on
the image for a larger version.

The Spirit is moving again on the Red Planet, now that mission managers think they know what ailed the mixed-up Mars rover last month. Spirit has had to cope with more mundane snags as well, such as a rock that got in its way this week.

Meanwhile, Spirit's twin, Opportunity, is continuing its march on the other side of the planet - and both rovers are sending back 3-D snapshots.

Back on Earth, engineers are working on a next-generation rover that works more like a yo-yo. Read on for the latest rover update ...

Spirit back in business
A week ago, rover mission managers at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory were scratching their heads over some puzzling problems that Spirit was having. First, there was a glitch that gave the rover a temporary case of amnesia. Then, the rover seemed to be having problems orienting itself. When it tried to get a read on the sun's position in the Martian sky, it didn't find it in the expected position.

These sorts of problems could be written off as signs of aging - which would be perfectly understandable. Spirit and Opportunity were designed with a 90-day "factory warranty" in mind, but last month they both passed the five-year mark. One of these days, Spirit is going to give up the ghost - but not this time. After its senior moments, the rover appeared to return to normal operation.

Since then, engineers have settled on the view that Spirit suffered an unfortunate cosmic-ray hit that turned off its flash memory temporarily. Spirit's team programmed the rover's computer with an optional no-flash mode - also known as "cripple mode" - to fix a memory problem that cropped up shortly after it landed on Mars. A cosmic-ray strike in just the right place (or actually, the wrong place) could have temporarily put the rover in cripple mode.

"It would require the confluence of a number of likely events, but it's still possible," John Callas, rover project manager at JPL, told me today.

Rover engineers also determined that Spirit's accelerometers - gadgets that the rover uses to measure its tilt - could be off by 3 degrees or so, which would have thrown off the sun-orientation exercise. All this is detailed in an update issued on Monday.


NASA / JPL-Caltech
This stereo view is part of a panorama captured by NASA's Spirit rover on Jan. 26.
Use red-blue glasses to see the 3-D effect. Click on the image for a larger version.

Because the accelerometers aren't used while Spirit travels, engineers gave the go-ahead for renewed roving on Saturday. Spirit's right front wheel has been gimpy for almost two years, but the rover still gets around by rolling backward and dragging the stuck wheel behind it. It was that very wheel that got hung up on a partially buried rock, just about a foot into Spirit's renewed trek.

Callas said the rover team's drivers, who steer the robots by remote control from millions of miles away, were able to get Spirit moving yet again. "On the most recent drive, they were able to move around it," he said.

Over the past few weeks, Spirit has been analyzing the soil around a formation known as "Home Plate," as part of a long-term effort to learn more about the area's geological history. Data from Spirit's alpha particle X-ray spectrometer recently indicated the presence of silica in a patch of soil called Stapledon.

An earlier analysis of silica-rich soil led scientists to conclude that the area once had hot springs or steam vents - and NASA said the findings from Stapledon indicate that "the environment that deposited the silica was not limited to the location found earlier."

Opportunities for Opportunity
Callas said Spirit's twin, the Opportunity rover, is continuing its trek through the sand-swept plains of Meridiani Planum, heading toward the 13.7-mile-wide (22-kilometer-wide) Endeavour Crater.

Opportunity has traveled about 1.2 miles (2 kilometers) in the past three months, Callas said, but there are still miles to go before the rover reaches its destination. "That's a couple of years away," he said.

Callas said the mission plan calls for Opportunity to stop every one or two kilometers along the way to take a close look at patches of exposed bedrock. Such observations will help scientists characterize how the geology changes across the 4-mile-plus (7-kilometer) stretch between Opportunity's old hangout, Victoria Crater, and its new digs.


NASA / JPL-Caltech
This is part of the full-circle stereo view captured by NASA's Opportunity rover. Use
red-blue glasses for the 3-D view, and click on the image for a larger version.

Opportunity may make other scientific stopovers. "There are some waypoints along the way - craters and other features that we will use as lighthouses or buoys, if you will, along the path," Callas said. "They may be scientifically interesting as well. ... It will be opportunistic."

Just in the past few days, JPL has posted 3-D stereo panoramas of Opportunity's vantage point as well as Spirit's surroundings, and the raw images just keep on coming. How long will the rovers keep marching? Callas has no idea. "We're going to keep working these rovers until we wear them out," he said.

The yo-yo rover
NASA is already working on the next generation of rovers: Some, like the pressurized rover that was part of last month's inaugural parade, will be suited for big jobs on the moon and Mars. Others will be built for small, tricky jobs - for example, shimmying down a steep cliff on another world.

Today, JPL touted a project known as Axel, which is being developed in cooperation with Caltech students for the shimmying sort of job. Axel is a robot that works like a yo-yo, reeling out a tether and pulling it back in as it rolls down and up steep terrain. The low-mass contraption is equipped with big wheels, a scoop and two 360-degree-tiltable cameras for observation.

Someday, such rovers could be anchored to the bigger, smarter descendants of Spirit and Opportunity, and lower themselves down to a crater floor on Mars.


JPL Robotics
The Axel rover system being developed at NASA's Jet Propulsion System could be
used as a "marsupial" rover. Axel would be lowered down on a tether from a
larger, anchored rover to explore steep terrain, as shown in this illustration.

"Axel extends our ability to explore terrains that we haven't been able to explore in the past, such as deep craters with vertically sloped promontories," Axel principal investigator Issa A.D. Nesnas, who works in JPL's robotics and mobility section, said in today's news release. "Also, because Axel is relatively low-mass, a mission may carry a number of Axel rovers. That would give us the opportunity to be more aggressive with the terrain we would explore, while keeping the overall risk manageable."

Check out this video to see Axel in action. For more information, consult this JPL Web page as well as this one at Caltech. And to keep up with all the Mars missions - past, present and future - check in with our "Return to the Red Planet" section.

MAIN PAGE

Email this EMAIL THIS

Comments

keep thinking guys,you're doing a great job of coming up with new ideas,go luck with the yo-yo
whatv did they accomplish
Rock on JPL and NASA!!!
Nicely written!  It was good catching up after so long on how these guys are doing.  ...a senior moment :)

Um... well... okay... So they thought it (Op) the end of it's days in the last mega crater, now... HuHum, it's off on a trek a "cupple years long?" to the next 13.5 mile crator?  The five year mentioned still hits me a little.  Can we start asking the Mars Society if it's changed it's mind on a manned mission. ...given that even the most austair and poorly featured robot the Bush Admin could muster has mannaged so well?  Or... Um... was that still a derivative of the FBC, pick 2 priorities?

Take a billion dollar, partially nuclear-powered robot and you'd have yourself a mega mission!  Being unmanned, they never have to return to the same landing spot each day/12 hours!  Their'd be less risk of a public outcry if the missioned failed too!  ...less of a chance and more of a return!  LOACMOAR! ha-ha!

I guess that's all part of the analytical method of design.  One must understand all options, reprocusions, figure in the chance of failure, be nutral in an authentic evaluation that doesn't include "a for the glorry of man clause", and Um... actually takes a wild (and, as of yet, not fully supported buy evidence (NOT), that mars might acutually have WATER, and MOVE ON to looking for life !

I'm not sure how daring I wish to be here, but I'd also wish to know the ideal method of exploration/colonization!  For in other words, is MARS the ideal place to colonize or would a space city/outpost, which can simulate proper gravity!  I like a heavy space outpost in orbits that can support Geostationary/weather/GPS instrumentation (where the popper use of Man's ability to maintain, upgrade, and and replace hardware within the facility can be applied).  WHat about a supporting self-sufficient space city/collony out at L2 that had it's own massive/maintainable array of space/radio telescopes flying insink?  Hey... and then there would be the option of mining an asteroid with much lighter gravity than the moon.  We could mine one that was in a faily sinked up orbit so it can take us where we want to go and yet create metals and resources for the construction on Deliberate intersolar system transports?



WHAT ARE THE GOALS?  Exploration is NOT colonization and will not lead to it.  

...we also have to factor in an ideal way to get materials around.  Are we ultimately aming to build a massive inter-solar system Enterprise?  That can go back and forth between the inner worlds quickly?  What would that platform look like? ...and is the infrastructor that would have been needed "earlier" to build those smaller/less ambicious space outposts be enough to build follow on enterprise-like inter-solar sytem sensor platforms?  Making your planning that far out (what ya think 200 years?), allows us to see what part of the process we need to be working on now.  This is very important!  Since exploration is not colonization, there would be next to no cross-over in the type of equipment and infrastructre that is needed to build one or the other.  You'd only be proving you could do it by sending people to mars which we ALREADY KNOW, by landing on the moon.  

God... I hope Obama doesn't get talked into some manned Mars mission!  (just a thought!)

ALan, I guess to say, even at this stage with what the rovers just accomplished and proved could be done, we need to be thinking of our ideals in the future of space and then stick with it!  there are a lot more levels to the proper application of design than the "manned" proponents seem to understand.  As with anything, you have to weigh all requirements and develop a system approach with an overall plan in place!

Alan, Which reminds me, I once proposed that in order for spacecraft to reach a higher velocity, we could have it run along "GOBBLING UP" fuel pelets we shot into it's path.  In other words, as the spacecraft is accelerating, have it only with marginal fuel storage.  Have it gain speed and then like injesting a water baloon in its path, it could keep buring its fuel without having the full mass of fuel to push... the largest part of Mass!  Such a "timed-trajectory system is possible.  It's like re-fueling a navy fighter jet.  A similar notion of "leaving the mass behind" could be applied to the landing gear on space shuttles (or airliners for that matter), by having them land not on their own gear, but on rail-like cars that reach up and catch/craddel them as they come in.  The landing gear on the shuttle has got to weigh several tons.  Center pivoting wings might be next.

Anyway, thanks for listin'en Alan.  Maybe the five year aniversary of the rovers shoulc have been celebrated as "we proved another option instead of man" day to explor Mars!

Chris  
Wonderful job done by the team at NASA. Proud of you, keep it up
those little rovers just keep on trucking. talk about an engineering triumph! 5 years after the initial 90 days & we're still getting amazing images from mars. i wonder if when we do start sending folks to mars & begin colonization, will we seek out those rovers & set up a static museum around them to show future "martians" how it all started with their explorations for us. these little guys should be part of future memory. go spirit! go opportunity! rip phoenix
Do they ever get sound recordings ? I know we wouldn't hear much, but it would be cool just to hear wind rushing through some of those martian mountains or hear storms on the planet .
Wonderful article Alan!  The little rovers that could have given us taxpayers a really great return on our investment.  I'm glad that Spirit was able to comeback to operational status after that recent scare.  Man it looks like I need to find some 3-D glasses now that so many pictures are coming out in 3-D.
It is becoming more and more obvious that, when properly executed, you get much more bang for your buck with robotic than with manned space exploration.  Think where we could be if we had spent the billions wasted on the Shuttle and ISS on robotic exploration.  Spirit and Opportunity are not losing bone density and we are not worried about getting them back home.
Amazing!! These little rovers are like the bunny....they keep going, and going, and going.
NASA got this one right more than ever expected.
Awesome!  What an amazing project - can't wait for more rovers to get to Mars and discover even more.
Awesome! Spirit and Opportunity ROCK!
Fred, The Planetary Society did record the sounds on Mars.  It was an experiment they piggybacked on a Nasa mission, I think the original rover in '97.  I heard it once.  So it's definitely out there somewhere!  The Planetary Society often did creative things like that but lost my interest with their repeated solar sail project that I thought had already been shown by baloon like satalites that showed being pushed around by solar winds.  I think all of our names are on Mars from the society and out in space on some commet crashing mission :)  that was pretty cool!

Like the comment Chris from AL!  I'd like to know what the proponents of a manned mission think here.  Avoiding gravity wells to colonize space by mining the ice and metals from a much smaller asteroid seems better so even rulling out the better gains of robots on exploration, a true colonization plan might be out the window for them too.  We certainly need to get man into space in the name of our species, but how we do it really needs to be methodically planned out!
Great to hear the rovers are back on the job. Great idea about the yo-yo too. Perfect thing for looking down into a martian sinkhole.
The "lowering down idea" for a new generation of rovers is very good.  If designed, I'd like to see a minor adaptation to this.  Have the part that get's lowered also be able to serve as an anchor so that the larger section can pull itself out of a sand trap or if it gets stuck somehow.  Expand the concept maybe inot two rovers that can assist one another, perhaps even help repair or at least examin one another, and perhaps even disconnect for simultanious operations next to each other.  They'd basically stay together but can drift slightly apart to analyze defferent things simultaniously if the climb down into the crator isn't too bad.  If we ever do get a small fleet of rovers on the planet maybe we could tap into some of the concepts developed by the mars society and just apply them better for robots.  Have a remote station that makes the fuel from the atmosphere like they planned, but use it for a "rover transportation aircraft".  Rovers aren't very large and heavy so you could have a hovering-like platform that can land vertically and wisk them off to their next location without taking years to get there by ground.  Like a military transport the rover would just role onto it's back and be wisked off.  With ample fuel from a central re-fueling station, such a transport aircraft could keep a small fleet of say six rovers moving to each successive location.  

The concept of a small VTOL transport for the rovers doesn't even have to be something special.  The landing platform that comes in with the rovers on their back, could be the ideal platform to do the job if more and more fuel could be provided.  Given ITS ability to land vertically, it might be a nice addition to the yo-yo concept since it can take the rover right down into the crator!  The use of The mars society refueling station could help aerial robotic explorers also.  Flying down into that canyon and hovering along it's walls doing experiments :)

If you were going to go with manned exploration, such a "dust off and relocate" ability that extra fuel enables, can help keep the mission from growing stale just sitting in one location.  Finding and creating fuel is the biggest need for any type of space exploration!  Mining ice on asteroids, Ceres, or whatever would be the most idea and since Ceres is now a planet (under universal rules NOT the IAU's), why not try to colonize Ceres with lighter gravity than Mars?  That thing's a hunk of water ice if memory serves :)

Chris
This is a good amount of bang for the buck!  I hope that every mission is this surprisingly successful.  I would also hope that we can land another few rovers on Mars (and the Moon) to scout out possible landing sights for human colonization.  The sooner we do that the better for the ability to understand how we might better explore the solar system and beyond.
As Bruce Willis said in Armaggeddon, you're NASA; you're the guys that think sh$t up...

Nice work !
Why dont they explore the plains of cydonia?
Exploration does not lead to Colonization????  Really, I mean seirously more than one poster actually said this.  Colonization is the direct result of exploration.  How do you think country came to be?  If it weren't for the Spainish and Portugese EXPLORERS the Americas wouldn't not have COLONIZED by repressed Puritans.  
good job NASA!
Great new idea in examining the rough hard to get too terrain, keep up the good work. I still like the idea of a wind riding rover system, The Windsurfer I presented to the Mars society conference in 2003 and is published in the book On to Mars 2 by Robert Zubrin. The Windsurfer would travel for hundreds of Kilometers over the Martian terrain even in the deepest canyons powered by the wind and thin film solar power on the top of the attached balloon.

http://shineinnovations.com/5812.html

For newer animation see

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg9OCyyPi4M&feature=channel_page
Agree with the prior comments - Spirit and Opportunity are the "little rovers that could".  While I'm a huge supporter of manned space flight, these rovers and their *cousins* (Voyager, Surveyor, et al) provide the necessary recon before we commit to human missions.

I'll definately shed a tear when the day comes that these guys go dark.
wow, thats amazing!! nice work NASA!!
Justin, I guess I put that a bit wrongly...  I mean "human" exploration (in regard to space) will not lead to the colonization of space!  I didn't mean that rover/probe exporation wont because it will!  Using humans to explore is a big money/glory grab!  It's not real... it's an illusion!  Even The Mars society's (name?) ideal plan will not lead to a permanent outpost worthy of staying in.  YOu wouldn't want to keep landing in the same place if your goal is to explore.

If you're going to colonize than state that as your prime directive and argue that point regardless of perceived cost and stick with it.  A true plan will draw even more attention and may be enough itself to unite the world.  People do want glory and sometmes deserve it.  It should not be for the glory of man, but for the sake of it which few can argue against vs. being accused of wasting money on science by a large percent of the population.



YOu see, sometimes you don't always have to scale down your ideas/ideals just to "convince" the public your ultimate goal is worthy.  Just present the idea without the banners and a lot more people would buy the idea.  they hear about so many billions and trillions thrown out in front of them these days that saying "a trillion to create an offworld colony" might sound more appealing to them (jobs?), than 20 million just to go plant a flag on Mars.  

If we are looking to colonize than this is a debate we can have.  But, we all most be open to the type of plan that will work and be used for other things hopefully.  Even travel back and forth to L2 or Ceres/mars would be a possible revenue venture as space tourists.  If we could stamp out a fleet of Cassini sized probes at such a space city and save the launch costs from earth we'd be able to fully read the history of the solar system... one of mans ultimate goals
Great Job NASA!  

Can we have one that will plant seeds and microbial life from the tundra regions of Earth on Mars???

Can Mars become the new Island of Surtsey.  
The yoyo driod seems silly. It will get hung up for sure. You will have to let go of the rope.
Why send humans into space? Two reasons. One is admittedly emotional, but that doesn’t invalidate it: engaging humanity in the grand adventure. Is anyone not on here paying any attention to robotic surveys of Mars? Would anyone on earth NOT be paying attention if it were human beings roaming the surface of Mars? At least the first few times.

The other reason seems practical to me, depending on your definition of practical. Earth has been struck by celestial objects a number of times, and most life here wiped out. In recent years Jupiter was struck by a broken comet that left a number of holes in its atmosphere. One of those holes was bigger than planet earth. We need to establish a colony on Mars as an ark to preserve a few of the only living creatures we know to exist in the universe. Assuming that’s important to us, even if we’re not the ones to be spared.
i want t be a astronaut but i am from third class fa mily
Sound receivers would be great, also they should check seismic tremor sensor, full Elecro Magnetic specrum checking,
Congratulations not only to NASA and JPL, but also to all those people who actually designed and built these machines!
The world's most expensive Remote controlled cars are still hanging in there! They are amazing but if we can put a few guys on the moon, it should be time to try mars!
Once again seeing the wheel tracks in the sands of Mars was a thrilling portent of times to come. Yes, it will take hundreds of years to develop, but it is the high frontier and humans have always sought new frontiers, new challenges, new opportunities for expansion. This solar system is "ours". We only need reach out and embrace it. Mars, like The Moon, is a mineral treasure trove waiting for human habitation. All of the elements necessary to sustain humanity are already there like puzzle pieces in a box waiting to be put together. Inhabiting The Moon, Mars, mining the Asteroids, perhaps even colonizing the Moons of Jupiter and Saturn are the stuff of science fiction today. But there is always tomorrow.
John Mayer, I was actually a bit surprised yesterday.  I was talking to a neighbor and asked him if and why we should send humans into space and he said exactly what you did... as an ark to preserve humanity!  My mother said the same thing first off...

It's almost instinctive for people to want that as a goal which I'd almost guess goes right down to a person.  It would come with the glory but would have a valid reason beyond just planting flags.  Robots and probes are all we need for the science aspect.  We would send a lot different hardware indeed, if the goal was to establish a permanent self-supporting outpost anywhere else in the solar system.  

Yes, mars does have all the resources we need but also one thing we can do without... gravity.  Gravity of almost any kind is a sink hole which we should try to avoid.  Mars doesn't have enough atmosphere, yet enough to require extensive re-entry shielding and the dangers of re-entry.  The surface of mars would also not be ideal for a "last resort outpost" for the same reason that earth is vulnerable.  If the surface of mars it hit with an asteroid, the shockwave can carry thousands of miles and destroy it.  It also lacks the proper gravity for human endurance.

A much smaller world like Ceres or an even smaller large asteroid would also have what we need like water ice, and yet we can get to it easier since there is less gravity.  Mining such an object allows us to pop back and forth from the surface to orbit so that we can build a space city/outpost near it if not right ontop of it to float away from there.  An outpost can simulate proper gravity for LONG durations and is not affected by a near miss by an asteroid unlike an outpost on the surface of mars.

There maybe icy asteroids fairly close to earth that can be mined.  Something the size of the space station might be all that we need to send to it, land on it and start producing all the parts which would be made simple, yet very robust.

We also have to remember that we wouldn't just be helping ourselves survive incase of a chance disaster here.  We could take the seeds and genetic materials from all known life on earth as a huge repository and library of all our knowledge.

As for the size of such an off world colony, we'd have to ask, "okay, if the earth is hit but then recovers back to normal several hundred years later, how large of a colony would it take to properly recolonize earth?  Perhaps it doesn't have to be that large if indeed we had genetic samples from tens of thousands of humans that can be mixed as needed.

Given that we are up-close and mining an asteroid with next to no gravity, we can not only use the metals and ice, but also large boulders and soil which can form a layer of shielding around our station.  Ideally such a station would not only secure our existence, but do purposeful things like build Cassini like probes, maintain satellites, or operate extensive sensors itself, which can save billions of dollars.  

Maybe a lot of people would be watching a mars landing to plant a flag?  ...And if there were a failure?  They'd also be the same masses that criticize it for being an unnecessary expenditure as they always do on this blog.  If we change it our goals to an off world colony, My guess is that you'd find almost universal agreement but it would have to be a serious plan which probably would exclude Mars itself.  The moon is a good "maybe..." especially if more ice is found!

Alan, Can we have one of those "non-scientific" voting things where we ask people if you'd rather spend 20 billion for a one time mission to mars, or a trillion to estabilsh a permanent off world colony for the survival of man?  Can I write it?

Chris

[ALAN ADDS: For you? Sure. We have something new we're phasing in called "question boards" that are just as unscientific but allow people to explain their vote. If there's any special wording you want to try, let me know ... otherwise I'll just pose the question the way you put it, in a follow-up item sometime next week. Have a great weekend, Chris! The same goes for all our other Cosmic Log correspondents.]
If you're in an aggreeable mood Alan, lets start the Ceres Society :)!  Contrasted against the Mars society... what could go wrong? :)  

as for the way to word the questions, I'm not sure I can come up with a way to say it objectively...  I think the whole premice revolves around the fact that you'd get more true scientific gains with robots for the same money than you would with human "exploration".  

I'll certainly try... I think either way you'd have to have a small article of pros and cons before the voting questions!  It may be one of the most critical topics as I think the argument itself has the potential to unite man and preserve the life and history from our very planet.  The debate on how to colonize should be fine tuned...  Objectively!!    
"Take a billion dollar, partially nuclear-powered robot and you'd have yourself a mega mission!  Being unmanned, they never have to return to the same landing spot each day/12 hours!  Their'd be less risk of a public outcry if the mission failed too!"


That depends on the point at which the mission fails. The 'public outcry' at nuclear powered space devices isn't about what might happen in deep space, but about a *launch* failure, no matter how much you do to show them that the material will survive in one piece and not be finely pulverized and delivered directly to the lungs of everyone in Florida...


Chris, I loved your idea of an anchor. When I saw the tether I thought the same thing. The only variation is I would not use it just to rescue the main rover. Imagine how much quicker the decent into Victoria Crater might have been if the rover had been repeling. The anchor would not be used to support the entire weight of the rover just to keep it from slipping. You could then take chances with much more difficult terrain with confidence.
I also like your idea of having sub-rovers able to do maintainence on the main rover. One of the main worries for the Mars rovers is dust on the solar panels.
I think NASA has one more mission to Mars before they can expect civilian competition. Google is looking to have a presence on the Moon. How long after that will the stakes be upped to Mars?
Great point Frank!  It's good to hear from you!  I remember when Cassini was launched all the outcry and it just made me wonder what was going on.  Here people were outraged at such a launch, yet 300 miles to their north was a naval base where every few weeks a trident submarine heads out to see with 5000 times the distructive power of the Hiroshima bomb which they seem to be perfectly fine about.  I think helping people see the ambiguity in their actions may help!  I guess to say that nuclear might not even be needed.  If you argue that manned missions are better given that they can go farther and faster with their much larger moon buggy, than just make a rover as large and as fast as a manned moonbuggy and leave the humans at home.  Maybe a rover with a combination of fuel, solar, and nuclear so that it cuts down on the amount of plutonium being launch is another option too.  Don't the two rovers have a sliver of nuclear materials to keep them warm overnight?  

[ALAN ADDS: Yes, you're right, there are plutonium-powered supplemental heaters on the rovers. This Web page refers to them:]

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/mer/mer-20070726.html
John, I like the repelling/anchor idea for the main rover!  That would have probably doubled or trippled the number of paths Opportunity could have taken down into the last crator!  I guess I was only brain storming about the "rover-servicing-rover" idea.  On the outset, it doesn't seem like the one could really help the other, but if it was designed for simple ease of maintenance, than perhaps the one rover could maybe fix a broken wheel like on Spirit, or at least remove it for less drag.  YOu know... rovers build with universal parts, universal tool attachments and perhaps the ability to interchage parts if you had two poorly functioning robots and could take the best from both.  Ug... my head hurts! :)...

If just needing a basic anchor, some type of explosive bolt shot into the ground may work?  

Well, if you're right?  Civilian involvment could come about as early as 2012, three years after the next launch window.  That kinda seems a bit soon...  perhaps if there were some sort of major discovery that would greatly speed things up?  I don't know a whole lot about the newest rover but I know it's pretty large.  I'll assume it'll still be testing for water and not for life, unfortunately!  

John, if we did have a mini fleet of rovers around an interesting area, perhaps we could land a sizeable robotic labratory in the middle and instead of trying to return the samples, just have a lot of hardware right there with the rovers bringing back samples!  I'm sort of thinking something the size of, say, two refrigerators, with the ability to cut rocks open cleanly, and with powerful microscopes!  Basically, I don't think there's anything our robots can't do that humans can.  just gotta expand the options and hopefully better softwear will enable faster rovers to avoid obsticalls on its own!

Thanks Alan, it probably saves a lot of power, and maybe even during the day as well to keep it warm.  The whole nuclear/non-nuclear thing got me thinking...  I'd have no idea of the mechanics, but I've seen photos of solar collection arrays in space somehow "beaming" down power to a ground facility on earth.  I'm sorta wondering if that can be scaled down to power rovers even at night?  It's the beaming down part I don't understand.  Microwaves?  It probably wouldn't take a big array... maybe just a 3 meter parabolic solar dish to power a rover from up there?  That's a wild guess... but if nuclear is rulled out for all but the most exceptional situations...

Ya know guys, that idea to avoid mars not only because of its gravity but also it's atmosphere for re-entry concerns I think is just another example of a place like Ceres being a bit better bet.  It's escape velocity is .51 vs. Mars at 5.0!  It is 2.1 AU from earth...  Mars is .5 AU, so it's frou times further out.  Gets me wonder'en about the Martian Moons?  Four times further might not be bad with the right ship.  Being 10 times easier to mine with neglegable atmosphere may be worth the extra effort.  I guess apart from Ice, you'd really need to look for a metal rich soil to build from.  

IMPORTANT: I once saw an article on an atomic filter.  If used here on earth, it was said to be able to extract like a ton of gold from a cubic mile of sea water.  It was in Popular Science I think.  In order to design the best outpost with an obvious need for mining, this could be one of the most critical peices of technology if it could be used on a practical scale.  I'd rather "filter" water ice for the metals we need, than to use much more massive drilling/blasting/crushing techniques.  If Ceres or whereever doesn't have a lot of metals in surface rock, we could get what we need easier just by melting the ice for what we need.  Um... sorry for the additional rant here, but that filter may shave 50 years off getting our safe-haven up and running if we can avoid cumbersome mining eq!

Thanks!
Chris
Um... yeap... me again :)! Frank, if launching nuclear materials is a major concern, maybe we could launch several cores separately inside a specifically designed re-entry vehicle?  Simply have a mission that needs a core, dock with it and take a core along for the ride to whereever.  I guess that's kinda the art of design... it never fails to amaze me, but there always seems to be ways to get by what at first seems pretty sizable obsticals.  Often times it doesn't require new technology... just the proper application of existing tech.  Advances seem to come when obsticals in size and cost "force" engineers to come up with something a bit better... applying some obscure form of tech from some other feild perhaps.  I guess the most important part is to just fully understand what options are available to us and find a given system that works best putting them to use.  We need to find the ideal path to colonization and start the blue prints of the road to get us there.  The Mars society--although I bust on them, isn't without my admeration for coming up with the fuel producing method, the idea of a tethered mass to help the main transit ship to achieve gravity, the called for use of Energia from the Soviets which was a far nicer launch vehicle than we had, and even the idea of landing in the same location to build up an infrastructure wasn't bad on paper.  They put a lot of effort into it... I just think mars to have more problems for what it's worth if we really wish to do this right!  I'm rather Cere'ous' about trying to form a competing Ceres Society, and would even lay down 1 or 2K if any of you guys think it holds mereit.  Much like science advances when there is a competing explenation for the same observed anomoly, we sorta owe it to the process to propose alternate ideas, right?  Let me look up that atomic filter... I've been pretty anal about saving thousands of articles like that over the years! :)
all pie in the sky,,a mars pie,,so where is all this money coming from to do all this? if the earth might be wiped out and we need ot ge toff to save our future what about where we are going is going to be wiped out too? didnt mars already have some huge collisions?
so will the avg taxpayer and 3rd world citizens want to spend a portion of their earning for this? they have mouths to feed,their lives to lead,they need to survive ,get clean water and stay free of malaria.just think if bill gates didnt invest millions or billions into fighting malaria he couldve sent the moeny for new robots.and guess what,one guy who could afford to do this,helps out people in africa.think about it.until there is a new way of propulsion that is clean,safe and inexpensive we're not going anywhere soon.there has to be another way of moving faster and farther than what we have.robots to mars is akin to making a cardboard raft and sailing across the atlantic.maybe in another 10 years we'll be back on the moon,maybe,by then it will have been 50 years previous.think about it.and we wont even have vehicles to get to the space station for a few years.we have to rely on the russians.so going to mars will take a full human effort of the whole planet and the shape its in now,,its not a priority.hate to be negative but when people can live within there means,maybe it'll happen and that goes for EVERYONE.why doesnt congress take a pay cut? maybe set some examples.
The Mars Rovers should have visited this website


www.thetransporterroom.com
Fantastic!

I have been following the Space Program since the days of John Glenn and never tire of the wonderful accomplishments NASA achieves.  Whether we see pictures of Mars from the Rovers, pictures of Saturn by Cassini-Hyugens or pictures of deep space from Hubble, it is nearly always money well spent!  

In the next few years when we will all have to tighten our belts, please support NASA funding!
Thought there was going to be a sample return mission???
What happened to that?
Amazing rovers.!.
Joe Negative, I once watched an eight part video series from the library called Civilization.  The whole premice of the series revolved around one seamingly insignificant point.  As the narrator/author presented one monumental engineering project or historic peice of art from across the ages, he said such works were emblematic of the degree of "confidence" the society had.  It may seem trivial, but when a society or world has confidence there is literally nothing they cannot accomplish, yet, without it we fail.  Although open to debate, he said the Roman empire started to faulter when the roman people lost their confidence and started to live in fear of the barbarians to the north... wanting them to basically attack, just so they'd get it over with.

When was the last monument built in this country?  When was the last great engineering project undertaken?  It's quite obvious to me that the world we live in don't have much of any confidence like that which Apollo inspired.  

Sometimes confidence breads marvels, sometimes it's the marvel itself that can bring confidence and pride back into a people.  Maybe "today" isn't the perfect time for such an adventure.  Truly such an adventure would be emblematic of a world united and a global decision to do it right.  It is my feeling that even just beginning the discussion about something so important can inspire...  it makes people think and if indeed such a consideration of having an off-world colony is so instinktive to people, than perhaps even during the most despirate times, such an idea would not only seem natural, but even more important.  We don't just need something to believe in with sound merits.  we need to push ourselves further as if there is no tomorrow no matter in what epoch we live in.  Such goals not only come from a unified planet, it would be my own guess that such goals can help lead to it as that's what it would take.  If indeed people instinktively believe in a universal understanding that we need a safehaven to protect ourselves, maybe this one point can touch people more than some meraculous religious revolation, some global effort to say "let's just get along" etc.  If it is ingrained in us, than the idea itself has the power to move and to motivate.  I'd honestly love to know how much people value the idea of the safety of humanity.  Genetically speaking, it's about all a species really lives for isn't it?

Take care!
Christopher
humans can not live in or explore space.  The cosmic radiation would kill us pretty fast.  The space station is within the protection of the earths magnetic feild but outside that we would be fried.  The only ones to explore space will be robots.
"yo-yo" is not a Disney-esque enough name, NASA will never approve it.
Amazing!! Keep the manned dream alive.This venture has been inspiring and
unmissable. Keep it going guys
This work is great. I just hope that in Europe we would do a liittle bit of the same.
Good to see that our country is still dropping tons of money on space toys when our economy is in the toilet and our unemployment rate is through the roof.  Here is a stimulus plan, put all things NASA on hold for 5 years and take the billions saved and help out the people who have lost their homes!


SEND A COMMENT

PLEASE READ: All comments must be approved before appearing in the thread; time and space constraints prevent all comments from appearing. We will only approve comments that are directly related to the blog, use appropriate language and are not attacking the comments of others.

Message (please, no HTML tags. Web addresses will be hyperlinked):

TRACKBACKS

Trackbacks are links to weblogs that reference this post. Like comments, trackbacks do not appear until approved by us. The trackback URL for this post is: http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/trackback.aspx?PostID=1780978

Latest Tech & Science News

Syndicate This Site

Add Cosmic Log to your news reader:
live.com xml
myyahoo msn
bloglines newsgator
google