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To hide a hunter

Posted: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 7:35 PM by Alan Boyle


W.L. Gore & Associates
This picture approximates a deer's-eye view of a bow hunter wearing Optifade camouflage. Click on the image to see how the scene would look to human eyes.

To hide yourself from the deer you're hunting, do you want to dress like a tree - or become invisible? Researchers are trying to take the second approach, with camouflage clothing that takes advantage of the fact that animals don't see the world the way humans do.

The Optifade camouflage pattern, created by W.L. Gore & Associates (the makers of Gore-Tex fabric), represents a break from the colored leaf patterns you see on stereotypical camo clothing. In fact, it looks a lot like the mostly monochromatic blocks-and-dots now used on military duds. That's no mistake: One of the advisers on the Optifade project was retired Lt. Col. Tim O'Neill, whom some regard as the father of modern-day military camouflage.

The design includes a big, blocky "macro pattern" that is meant to make the human form hard to spot when it's on the move (just as a tiger's stripes break up its outline). There's also a smaller-scale "micro pattern" that helps hunters blend into their environment when they're waiting to ambush a deer (similar to the function served by a leopard's spots).

But that's not all: The fabric's colors and patterns were fine-tuned to take advantage of the particular way deer and other hoofed animals (known as ungulates) process visual information. Jay Neitz, an animal vision scientist at the Medical College of Wisconsin, was called in to lend his expertise.

One big difference between deer and humans has to do with the placement of the eyes on the head. Our maximum field of view is about 180 degrees (with 140 degrees for binocular vision), while deer can take in nearly 280 degrees at a time - thanks to the fact that their eyes face in opposite directions rather than both facing forward.

That wider field makes it easier for the animals to get a low-resolution, all-around look at potential predators, but there's a trade-off: They can't process fine-scale detail as easily as we can. So clothing designed to mimic a deer's forest surroundings in detail doesn't work as well as you might think, Neitz told me.

"We could put all sorts of fine, beautifully detailed leaves in a camouflage pattern," he said. "The deer's vision system doesn't pick up all that fine detail. It just picks up the coarse view of a human form, and he'll say, 'Hey, there's a guy standing by that tree over there.'"


W.L. Gore & Associates
The Optifade pattern uses macro and micro patterns in muted colors.

The Optifade pattern is specifically designed to fool a deer's lower-resolution eye, Neitz said. And the color scheme does away with the usual forest green and brown. Instead, it emphasizes blue, black, white and gray - because those colors, plus yellow, are the only ones that a deer sees.

The eyes of a deer have the receptors for blue and yellow, but not for red, Neitz explained. As far as they're concerned, red is just another shade of gray.

From a scientific standpoint, perhaps the most interesting question is how scientists try to figure out what a deer sees. Neitz and his colleagues conduct experiments with animals who are trained to walk toward a particular type of pattern - for example, a card with black and white stripes on it vs. a gray card. The researchers modify the patterns by using different colors and widths of stripes, and eventually figure out what the animals can see and what they miss.

Deer aren't nearly as amenable to these sorts of tests as, say, lab rats. The experiments have to be conducted outdoors, under challenging conditions. "Those are really hard experiments to do," Neitz said. But once researchers figured out the way the deer vision system worked, they could create image-processing software that fuzz and fade a picture to duplicate a deer's vision.

Human subjects were then recruited to look at the resulting deer-cam video and pick out the camouflage patterns that maximized the wearer's invisibility. This video clip from W.L. Gore & Associates about the "Science of Nothing" provides plenty of examples.

A segment from W.L. Gore & Associates' "The Science of Nothing" explains
how deer-vision studies figured in the creation of Optifade camouflage.

For more examples, check out the deer's-eye view of a hunter in the trees vs. the human-eye view - or a picture of a hunter in an open field, as seen in human vision and deer vision.

The "Science of Nothing" video makes it look as if competing camo patterns would be much more easily seen by deer. But in this case, I suppose the true proof of the pudding is in the shooting - and I'm not aware of any scientific findings relating to Optifade's efficacy in the wild. During my youth in Iowa, I would occasionally go out hunting with my father - and I can tell you that deer-distracting camouflage wouldn't have made a bit of difference.


Does all this put you in the mood to learn more about different levels of visual perception? For an example that doesn't involve killing other living things, check out this Web page, which ties together visual spatial frequencies, Abraham Lincoln in the rough and Salvador Dali's wife in the nude.

Correction for 11:30 a.m. Dec. 11: I mistakenly typed "W.R. Gore & Associates" instead of W.L. Gore & Associates in an earlier version of this post. My deepest apologies to Mr. Gore ... and all his associates.

Correction for 8:20 p.m. Dec. 11: A sharp-eyed reader (who also happens to be an eye doctor) spotted my reference to the human field of view and upgraded it from 120 to 180 degrees. After a double-check, I've corrected the reference.

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Comments

I think that people who get off on killing animals are pretty sick.  And to use technology to help them is truly an evil waste of a good mind.  How about using tech to make the world a better place, instead of a bloodier one?
Well, you should study your history, and world as it is now, because everybody eats, and it comes from somewhere. I think narrowmindedness is the issue here
Well I think the Camo technology is truly amazing!!! At first I couldn't even see the Hunter, it took me a second. I think that Hunting is a Good, to a point. For instance, Over population can be a real pain in the A@@! Not all hunting is necessary, I agree. But it is In our DNA. We would not be here if it wasn't for hunters!!!
David would probably have us all eat Soylent green.  Seriously most people who hunt eat the meat or sell it to  others to be processed and eaten.
I Love animals too, they are delicious!
I don't hunt them, I just eat them.
Its kind of cool but sucks that they're using this technology to kill animals :[.
Hunting and predation are the way wild animal populations are managed. Mans expansion into wildlife habitat and the loss of natural predators have concentrated wildlife populations and increased disease and conflicts with people.
Hunters provide more money for improved habitat and protection of wildlife than any segment of the population.
Get outside and experience these things for yourself. If you do not eat wild game take a camera. The knowledge and thrill of wild places and things will allow you to have an informed basis for your opinion.
There is a huge difference in killing an animal to eat and killing one as a sport.
RE- David,

Someday, there may come a time when you cannot depend on grocery stores, distribution chains, gas stations, cellular networks, or even electricity.  Hopefully, it would only be for a short time, and far in the future.  But in any case, people like you will be the first to go.
Perhaps we should scrutinize the intentions of tigers and leopards as well...what were they thinking?  Their millions of years of evolution have made them invisable to their prey.  How cruel!!!
Everything is living including that salad you eat for dinner. Just cause you don't think it's cute does not mean it is not alive. Do you live in a house? Then you are also part of the problem! We need to hunt deer - population control - because you took their land and made it your home and drove them out!
I'm with you David, and so is most of the normal world.
David....ever known of anyone that hit a deer with their car? There are plenty, some seriously injured, or yes, even killed. In areas that are overpopulated with deer those deer move excessively in search of food or water. Those necessities of life are constantly being taken by development...quite possibly by the neighborhood you live in. Ever walked through a forest that is overpopulated with deer? You may notice that most foliage below the reach of a deer is gone or chewed up. This inhibits or even kills new tree growth. And I'm sure you know what that leads to.

Most hunters don't get off on killing animals, they do it to escape simpleminded people and bring some good, clean meat home. Oh yeah, the company that developed this camo developed gore-tex fabric (stated above) that helps our military be more effective. And our military is what has protected our way of life and right to free speech over the past 230 some years.
Poor guy, wanting no animal blood shed... Sorry but does the phrase 'food chain' mean anything? It's a basic fact of life, part of the wonderful 'balance of nature' that makes this world work so well. Technology to assist the hunter is part of the reason the human race has survived - it's part of the history of mankind. First flint arrowheads, now a new understanding of animal vision - it's a natural progression!
Folks, if you don't hunt the deer, do you know what will happen?  We have gotten rid of all the natural predators.  They overpopulate, get sick, and start dying and spreading disease.

I have no problem with anyone who hunts for food, especially for a commonly available animal like deer.  Deer is delicious.

Which is more cruel, going hunting for deer, or penning up animals, fattening them up, restricting their movement, and slaughtering them?
I see nothing wrong with technology helping hunters to hide while hunting. As any seasoned hunter knows it isn't just the suit your wearing that hides the hunter, he must also use guise and skill. If it was just the suit, then I guess that means anyone putting on a 300 dollar armani suit would then be considered a lawyer!
Also in responce to David's comment, I suppose he's never eaten any meat in his life, seeing how quick he is to judge hunters. Don't get me wrong, I think the world in general needs a major overhaul and technology isn't always the answer as has been proven by the world's economic crisis. I wonder if all the people who are against hunting would be willing to donate their real estate for the "timid woodland creatures" that have survived for thousands of years to create a preserve for them to live on, seeing how it's the loss of land that makes it difficult for them to find food or places to live.
But don't worry, for if human history teaches us anything it's that it's human nature to take the latest technological advances and corrupt them into the most efficent killing devices for all the world to use, so just wait long enough and with time the only thing left will be the "timid woodland creatures" getting the last laugh!
Do not pity the deer, David, pity man.

The day is coming when machines can find and distinguish man in any complex sensor image, and follow our fixed action patterns by progromatic analysis of our instincts, emotions, and detectable stress levels, and even our "face perception".

And those machines will be programmed to hunt us down and kill us.

In the future, war will not be fought by men, it will be fought by machines that predate men.

In the future, the value of human life will become zero. Machines will become the heroes. And war will become meaningless as a human endeavor.

The doorway into this line of thought was opened up to me by media coverage of the Gulf War: it was the opposite of the potrayal of of the Great War, and all previous wars, when war centered around the individual, his courage, his convictions, etc....

Since thas time, machines have become the new heroes, and their power and skill in battle exalted, and the human side of warfare has become a footnote.
being a hunter means not having to apologize for reaching the highest pinnacle of human ability.
Calling hunting a sport when the animal has no chance of winning the game is actually laughable. Maybe the human race will evolve into something much better than we've got right now, but until then big burly men with small genitals needing weapons to kill something to prove how manly they are, to me, are pathetic creatures and they're hiding serious insecurity issues which a therapist would take a lifetime to unmask.
What no one has mentioned is the absolute agony, pain, fear and terror an animal experiences during a hunt.  Sure, some hunters will retort that their first shot kills the animal instantly.  But look at all of the other times when that first shot doesn't kill an animal and they flee, in vain, dying a painful, excrutiating death.  Why would you want to eat meat that has all of these stress hormones in it?  Everyone knows it ruins the taste.  If you want meat, go to the grocery store.  I'm not even going to get into how the U.S. government made it a policy to kill all of the buffalo, wolves and grizzlies that they could find to prepare for the white man to move into the area.  Like most things that man does, when it comes to "managing" nature -- we've messed up the balance.  Granted, there's nothing humane about having a pack of wolves rip a deer/elk/moose apart.  [...]
        As a one who has been a vegan, vegetarian and a carnivore, I am familiar with the complex of thoughts and feelings that the eating of an animal ignites.  I would rather eat a deer or any other overly abundant animal that is currently destroying native vegetal species (due to the loss of natural predators) than a cow that has been eating foods unnatural to its biology and kept in deplorable conditions. The cow is also emitting an obnoxious amount of methane gas into the atmosphere while consuming much more energy (kcal)than it is producing. Having said that, the culture of hunting is problematic in that the taking of life is often treated as a sport. In most cultures, the animal from which a peoples depends on for its food (and which is often times synonymous with "making a living"), is treated well and thanks are given after its life is taken. In our society this can translate into, knowing when it is time to take the life of an animal (when it is out of balence with the environment around it), and knowing when not to (when the ecosystem needs it more than we do). We must not forget our we are a part of the ecosystem as well as dependant upon it. As long as hunters are killing for sustenance,there can be little problem with it (as long as the species is not endangered, obviously).
          It is true that our ancient ancestors, as well as ourselves, have omnivorous teeth, not the herbivorous flat teeth that our relatives in the ape family possess.That being said there are certainly groups of humans that have been vegetarian for centuries if not longer (such as in India) that show it is entirely possible to never eat the flesh of a beast and still consume all of the proteins and nutrients needed to physically thrive. An addiction to overly processed vegetarian foods ( boca and morningstar farms products) is not a supremely healthy and sustainable substitute either.
       So, in the ends it seems we should plant some gardens, learn how to cook for ourselves, and maybe hunt the overpopulous (and in some cases, starving because of it) animals. So, lets get to work everyone, and transform ourselves, as well as our nation!
Hunting isn't something I do, it is a significant part of who I am. It is a heritage.

Far too many of us are too far removed from the farm, fields, and forests, and the sea (waters) the sources of all that we eat.
I wondered how long until they caught up to this idea. Ever since I saw the program about the military making the change, I figured it would be just a matter of time. I think it is way cool! Now if we could figure out how to hide "David", that would even be better [...]
Perhaps my genitals are small, perhaps not, but folk tales and personal insults are never going to change my heritage or who I am. However, if you insist, you many want to comment on my daughter's genitals too. She's hunted since age twelve, is now 32, a secondary math teacher,  wife and mother of two. She got one deer so far this year, and that with a bow.

As for sport, I never call hunting a sport, it is a lifestyle to us. It is not all about meat, although we do eat or someone eats what we kill. In addition to meat there are hides, feathers, antlers, bones, all used for clothing, adornment, interior or exterior decorating, and the list goes on.

Deer and most wildlife are renewable resources, like corn, beans, and trees. It is likely much more enviromentally friendly to use renewable resources, than say...oil, coal, natural gas.  

I would never open a faucet just to watch water run, or ignite a gallon of gasoline just to watch it burn, anymore than I would shoot a deer, just to watch it die.
Too ALL of you hippie FREAKS out there, you are PANSIES! So, since I am a hunter, I must have small genitals and must hunt to feel more "Manly"! HAHA, you GEEKS, your master is the computer, you are slaves to technology. What will you do when all of this technology FAILS, and it will, you will NOT SURVIVE! HAHA..GOOD!! You will be LOST, and PERISH! Yes, it feels GREAT to be sitting in the woods with a high power weapon, I'd rather hunt than play the women's game GOLF, now, that is NOT manly! Men are sissies today, thanks to womens LIB! HAHA! Now, be a stay at home DAD, no wonder that our diseased SOCIETY is FAILING..and do NOT forget..HUMANS ARE A DYING SPECIES! HAHA! Our days are NUMBERED..YES!!!!
David (1st comment) is either a vegetarian or he prefers his meat penned up and restrained for a peaceful, stress free kill.

I hope Smokey, in SC (12/10, 2331) isn’t talking long pig.

LTM, *somebody* has issues.

I say camo’s okay for a bowhunter.  Maybe handgunners.  If you can’t get to rifle range in jeans and a t-shirt, …
LTM -- Who cares about the size of a man's genitals?  That has nothing to do with hunting.  If you don't want to hunt, great.  If you do want to hunt, that is also great.  There is not a law in this great land that says you have to hunt.  If you don't want to, go to the store.  I hunt meat that way every week.  I also hunt birds, deer, fish, buffalo -- anything that is legal.  I enjoy the teaching of others, the group of family and the wonder of nature.  

As far as I am concerned, if hunting is legal where you live, you have a choice.  If you don't want to hunt, don't.  If you do want to hunt, all the better.
Calling names doesn't do anything for you or your point.  By the way, I am a mother of three wonderful children.  Two of them hunt, and the other wants nothing to do with hunting.  My husband and I love our children and respect their rights and choices.

We (all of us) run a company.  Hunting doesn't affect our family in any way.
Obviously not everyone lives in the real world.  It must be pretty easy to depend on a grocery store for all your needs... It must be nice to depend on someone else for all your needs.  Sorry guys, but out here in the real world, we still value the independence to take care of yourself and your own family.  We still value the ability to pass this own to our children, and to pass it on in an ethical way that you choose to ignore.  We value the security of knowing that we could survive even without the babying of our government and the detached corporations.  We value traditions, we value ethics, and I'm willing to bet we value life more than most people ever think about.  We understand how the world really works, and I guarantee you we value the sustainability of our environment more than people who live in cities and don't do anything for themselves.  When our environment manages to still sustain us a hundred years from now... thank someone who took the time to understand, care, and make a difference.  Don't criticize something you know nothing about.  It doesn't make a point, it highlights your naivete.

- A 20-year-old, college-educated female with values
I think that the animal lovers here are forgetting that we are animals too. I love my pets, but don't think for a minute that wild animals will walk right up to you for a scratch on the head.
You have to be from one school or the other. Either we are above the animal kingdom or are a part of it. I choose to accept that we are part of the order (predator and/or prey), and game management in the states has a done the best job it can with considering the growth of our own species.
And that is some interesting camo.
Ok,as a hunter,I look for anything that gives me an edge.Deer,elk,or any other game animal is at home and very familiar with his/her home range.Those of you who decry hunting as some great evil must rember that the very hunters you want to stop are the largest source of funds to protect the environment thatthe animals they hunt need to survive.since the wolves,Puma,and grizzlies that would keep the population prey species in check are gone in most parts of North America,some one has to keep the deer under control.If not there would be more deer than the land could support.As to an animal dying a horriable death.Have you ever seen what a starving animal goes through?As too buying my meat.At least the deer,elk,etc.isn't full of drugs,urea,and growth hormones Lastly.If you don't like hunting.Don't go.
In Oakland CA people shoot, stab, and hurt other people. Not for food, but for reasons unknown to me, and they don't even eat their prey. They use the latest in camoflage. Black hoodies, bandanas, baggy pants, and etc. Now that is someting to complain about. Deer hunting is more than a sport. It helps control herd size and health. One dies so many can live a long healthy life. AND the one that dies suffers no more than a person quitting smoking. If you don't want to hunt or eat meat, I respect that. Please allow me to eat meat and hunt for that meat with the same respect you expect from me. Bear
agony and pain, fear and panic? What about hunger and starvation, sickness and illness? If we're going to be redundant and repeat ourselves, hunting is a natural part of life, deer will be hunted by something whether it be man or a lesser predator, unless you eliminate the predators and then they overpopulate and die of starvation and disease. Where is the humanity in any of it??????? Oh wait, they aren't human HELLO. No most of the world is not with David, just the head in the clouds fools who don't want reality to intrude on their ideals. Hunting is not about being the man with the big stick and small testicles, it is about being the animal that man is not the sheep he is becoming.
I love reading all the posts.  You've got all these people crying that Bambi is going to die...  Face it, if humans (the cruel evil animal that we are) doesn't kill that deer, then as stated above, disease, other animals, or it may even kill itself (breaking an ankle, leg, or falling and getting infected wound). So for the what 10% of the population that actually hunts and the 2% of those that will buy this camo please do us all a favor and take out the deer over population.  There is no difference between a hunter who goes out and hunts for his food or the hippie that goes to the store to buy his organic lettuce and bananas...  Other then if/when anything happens to our infrastructure the TRUE hunter will actually be able to find food while the hippie will cry the when his organic lettuce is no longer available.
Neat.  BUT fairly useless once you put on your bright orange safety vest!  :p
Wow, apparently America has become a bit "weeny-fied" in the past 20 years. If you want meat, go to the store?? Are you kidding? I'd rather have clean meat with no hormones raised in the wild than a New York Strip cut from a slaughterhouse-raised cow.

Believe it or not, many, many hunters are conservationists who know that they aren't hunting "for sport" but to regulate populations since deer don't have many natural predators any more (in many areas, anyway). Same with other animals. Even if they WERE being hunted for sport, the end result is the same.

I used to hunt, but I no longer do. But rest assured I can nail a deer with the best of 'em if I need to eat :)

If you [...] feel the need to whine, at least whine about something meaningful, like starvation in Africa. I bet those people wish they had the ability to hunt as we do...
Lorna, glad to see that you acknowledge that Our grey wolf packs are not humane killers. The bears,mountain lions,and human hunters usually get the job done quickly and effiently and rarely waste any of the meat.several times in the last few winters here I have seen where grey wolves have killed deer and elk (some large healthy bulls) and never eaten them (it's called sport killing).I think members of peta,the hsus etc.should come and spend a winter in Wyoming,Montana,or Idaho and view the results (and inhumane killing of Our ungulates) by Our grey wolves.
I can't believe some of the naiivete on here.

These aren't people hunting a deer because they want to "kill bambi" or hang a head on a wall. Most deer hunters I know of are hunting for meat. Yes, we can go to the store and buy hamburger - ever see how those animals are treated?

As far as the "fear and stress" of a hunt, don't make me laugh. How is *our* hunting them - sitting for hours, barely moving, just watching and waiting - any different from another animal hunting them, be it bear, wolf, great cat? Some animals hunt, some are hunted. It's part of life.

Finally, hunting is not just authorized, but regulated. Would you rather have a deer die from a gunshot or arrow, and serve as food, or let it and the rest of an oversized population die of starvation over the winter? Most of their natural predators (other than us) are severely diminished if not gone completely. Do you, and your abhorrance of hunting deer, providing a quick death for food, prefer letting them die a slow, cold death over the winter instead? How *humane.*
Allegedly,  there are more deer now in the US than when Columbus arrived.  Mostly a combination of killing off their predators plus habitat changes.

Anyway,  hunting is in our DNA.  How else can you explain goose hunting,  which is mostly lying in mud during a freezing drizzle waiting to shoot something that is barely edible.

I, my father, his father... etc.  have been able to hunt without technology for hundreds of thousands of years.  Don what is warm and hit the woods!  This is a perfect example of the human race getting more and more lazy and unable to fend for itself.  Hunting is a skill that is developed in the wild, not purchased from the store.
Please do not try to insinuate that the meat in the grocery store is more "humane." Meat in grocery stores is from animals raised in factory farms where treatment of animals is abhorrent. Not only animals confined to the point that they can't move freely but even herbivores are fed back to their own kind. Between zoonotic diseases that will develop antibiotic resistance and spread of rare diseases such as the source of the mad cow scare, how did hunting become the "abnormal" way of getting meat?
I am a card holding member of "PETA"...People Eating Tasty Animals
Concerned about fear and terror experienced by deer?  It's the way of nature.  Better for people and better for them.  Always feel good for the deer that it ran away to safety in fear rather than coming over to visit you.

The camo helps just a little.  Hunting is hard work that involves all your senses.  Like nothing else it tests your patience, your wits, your fear, your endurance, your honesty, your strength, and your accuracy.  It's not for everyone.
lorna & LTM ????
As a person who as a youngster, working in a bloody killing field, butchering animals for profit, to provide your supermarkets with meat,so you can eat without the gilt or concerns of where your food came from.
Makes me question the comments you bogged.  
Don’t think of the pain and suffering;
Just eat your steak and forget about where it came from. I can tell you that the stress and absolute fear of the animals killed for your store wrapped meats are far worse than animals harvested from the natural environment. The next time you eat any beef, pork, chicken, or god help you lamb, I for one, hope you think, while you are eating, that you contemplate about the animals crying in absolute terror before being killed, cut up, gutted, stripped and racked for your pleasure.    

Enjoy your hormone enhanced animal products!

God bless all American hunters
Keepers of our ongoing heritage  

Black powder hunter by choice.
I believe it is good technology becuase we have to eat like a Lion has to eat meat but that isnt cruel, So why is it when humans hunt and eat its cruel... completely stupid... if ur a vegetarian keep ur opinion to urself! Us meatheads dont wanna know
 As someone with hunting experience, and being raised on a S.Dak. farm, I don't have a problem with gun-hunting.  I consider bow-hunting to be cruel, however, with some research showing up to 30% of shot deer escaping, only to die days later of an arrow in the intestines, flank, etc.  Why not use technology to develop either an explosive head which would have the effect of a 30/30 or perhaps a radio transmitter to permit better tracking?
I'm in favor of a fair fight.  No weapons, no camoflauge for either side. May the best species win.
I wish they would do the same thing for cat vision. Just north of Orlando, there is an area overrun by feral cats and it is spreading. A bad decision was made to protect them and disease etc. is the result. If you think birds of prey aren't looking at those cats, you are mistaken. Now think. What have we created by establishing an area covered by cats? Dogs, alligators, large birds - all hunt these cats, many that have been turned loose by owners and do not know how to feed or protect themselves. Those that do are breeding and attacking the others. Animal lovers make mistakes too.  
Wow, great stuff! I believe this is only the beginning for effective camouflage technology.  As an amateur marketer, sometimes hunter, occasional comment poster, and an all-around good guy, I have consolidated many of the above posts into distinct marketing segments and selected the predominant ones for considerations for the R&D section at W.L. Gore & Associates.  

W.L. Gore & Associates, please consider camouflage patterns of the following types:

- Those that hide hunters from prey while at the same enhance the hunter’s genitals.
- Consider producing a hat or scarf that would make folks like David appear intelligent.
- How about slip-covers for my laundry hamper that makes it appear to be a bag full of money?

Please discontinue the following products:
- The invisibility products my co-workers wear after 1200 on Fridays.
- The kids-gear worn by my children when their chores are not done.
I love all of God's creatures. I believe they should all have a place in this world. Right next to my mashed potatoes.
Dominic, your point was so excellent you would think it would shut down this issue once and for all. Pure logic. And I have never been hunting. Ever.


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