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Quantum fluctuations in space, science, exploration and other cosmic fields... served up regularly by MSNBC.com science editor Alan Boyle since 2002.

Alan Boyle covers the physical sciences, anthropology, technological innovation and space science and exploration for MSNBC.com. He is a winner of the AAAS Science Journalism Award, the NASW Science-in-Society Award and other honors; a contributor to "A Field Guide for Science Writers"; and a member of the board of the Council for the Advancement of Science Writing.

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How safe is the shuttle?

Posted: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 12:01 AM by Alan Boyle


NASA
The shuttle Endeavour stands on Launch Pad 39A at NASA's Kennedy Space Center
in Florida, in preparation for its Nov. 14 launch to the international space station.

Both of this year's presidential candidates - Barack Obama as well as John McCain - have called on NASA to look into the idea of flying the space shuttle fleet past its scheduled 2010 retirement date.

Now the space agency is providing some sobering estimates of the costs and the risks that would be involved - leading one seasoned space observer to wonder whether the shuttle program should be throttled back rather than extended.

NBC News' Jay Barbree, who has spent 50 years as a space correspondent, was struck by NASA Administrator Michael Griffin's guest column in Florida Today this weekend, headlined "Time to Retire the Shuttles."

In the wake of the 2003 Columbia tragedy, investigators warned that the inherent risks of the shuttle design - including the lack of a reliable escape system and the vulnerability to flying debris - were so great that the fleet had to be retired "as soon as possible."

Citing that warning, Griffin said that the shuttles "should be retired after fulfilling our commitments to our partners from Canada, Europe, Japan and Russia by completing assembly of the international space station." For the five years or so between the fleet's retirement and the debut of the shuttle's successor, NASA would have to rely on Russian spaceships to send crews to the station and back. That situation may be "unseemly," but it's less risky and less expensive than the alternative, Griffin said.

How risky would it be to keep flying the shuttle? In an e-mail, Barbree said Griffin's answer gave him pause:

"Griffin warns, 'With knowledge gained since the loss of Columbia, we estimate there is a one in 80 chance of losing a crew during any single shuttle launch.'

"The NASA administrator goes on to write, 'If we were to conduct 10 additional launches prior to retiring the shuttle, there would be about a one in 8 chance another crew would be lost. These are sobering odds - one reason why the Columbia Accident Investigation Board recommended the shuttle be replaced as soon as possible.'

"Whoa, Nellie!

"If I read this correctly, NASA feels the odds are a one-in-8 chance the agency will lose a shuttle during the 10 flights to be flown before the shuttle is to be grounded Sept. 30, 2010. If this is true, why is NASA flying these missions, even if the USA has contractual obligations with international partners to complete the construction of the international space station?

"On the drawing boards are America's next-generation rockets and spaceships, named Ares and Orion. Experts say they will be 30 times safer - one loss in 2,100 flights.

"Should NASA ground the worn and dangerous space shuttles now, and move ahead with the much safer rockets Ares and the spaceship Orion?

"A sobering question."

Does the math make sense? The 1-in-8 statistic is roughly correct, assuming that each launch truly does pose a 1-in-80 risk of catastrophe. If you make that assumption, the precise figure would be an 11.8 percent risk of encountering at least one fatal mission in any set of 10. That's somewhere between 1-in-8 and 1-in-9. Obviously, the more flights you consider, the higher the risk of suffering a catastrophe at least once. For example, the risk rises to 72 percent if you launch 100 more flights.

Combining probabilities in that way doesn't change the risk for any individual flight. The next shuttle flight, scheduled for launch on Nov. 14, would carry a 1-in-80 risk, as would the flight after that, and the flight after that, and the flight after that. (It's the same with dice: You have a 1-in-36 chance of rolling snake-eyes for each individual throw, but a roughly 1-in-4 chance of rolling snake eyes at least once in 10 throws.) 

The question NASA has to ask itself is whether each mission between now and the fleet's retirement is worth a 1-in-80 risk of losing the crew. Griffin is saying it's worth that risk for finishing the space station (and fixing the Hubble Space Telescope). But in his view, it's not worth that risk for transporting crew members back and forth - particularly if there's a Russian alternative.

NASA is required by law to lay out the risks and the costs associated with extending shuttle operations by as little as a year, or as much as six years. Griffin's guest column in Florida Today shed light on the risk question, and shuttle program manager John Shannon provided further information on the cost question today.

The Orlando Sentinel quotes Shannon as saying that the price tag would be at least $2 billion extra per year - a burden that he said would be "disastrous" unless Congress boosted NASA's budget by that amount. What's more, keeping the shuttle program running while working on the Orion-Ares system would jam up operations at NASA's Kennedy Space Center in Florida as well as the Michoud Assembly Facility in Louisiana, Shannon said.

Bottom line: Extending the shuttle program could be messier than the candidates think. There might be enough leeway to fly one more mission to deliver a $1.5 billion particle-physics experiment known as the Alpha Magnetic Spectrometer to the space station. But if NASA's current management has its way, there'd still be four years or so when the space agency is dependent on other people's rockets.

If you were Obama or McCain, what would you do with this information? Would you want to keep the shuttles in business for a couple of years longer, go with NASA's retirement plan, or pull the plug early? Feel free to add your comments below.

I'll be helping out with msnbc.com's Election Day coverage, so the next Cosmic Log posting will be on Wednesday - and it will likely be related to the election. Don't forget to vote!

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Comments

Mr. Griffin’s failure to understand simple failure stats is surely a problem. For one, the failure rate of the shuttle is a known factor, for another, he assumes that the failure rate of the replacement will be lower.

I for one will be glad to take my chances on a flight. A one in 80 chance of a major failure is a small risk to take for a flight in space.
I think it is worth the risk.  Our astronauts know the risks of flying into space for the greater good and I believe that it is such a special and monumental experience that they wouldn't want to give it up for anything.  I certainly wouldn't pass on the chance to ride in the shuttle no matter what the odds are.
Both Shuttle disasters would have been avoided by simply placing the orbiter at the top of the stack, rather than strapped to the side, as one of the early designs had it.  After Columbia, I wrote to NASA reminding them of this, and that the orbiter momentum would have carried the shuttle high above the explosion.  Their reply: "Placing the orbiter at the top of the stack has been considered, but would result in a recertification of flight, which would take years."  Then Challenger occurred, which resulted in that same "years delay" anyhow.  Debris could NOT have struck the shuttle if the shuttle was ABOVE the debris-source.  Now we are looking at a several-year gap of NO US-ISS capability.  Penny-wise, Pound foolish.
After the Challenger disaster in '86,we should have ended the shuttle program in favor of  developing the next generation of space craft.We are still usung flawed technology from the '60s,that has cost 14 lives so far.Isn't this enough. while I do believe that we must continue to explore our solar system and beyond,we must be more concerned with the safety of our Astronauts who risk their lives every time they fly the shuttle.Safety first before cost must be the new mantra for NASA..or they are doomed to extinction.
The shuttle is already operating past the original life expectancy and while that is a remarkable acheivement, in spite of corrections to o-rings and more risk assesment in terms of foam hitting the wings, the fleet is aging.

While there are more safety checks and balances in place now for future shuttle flights, the components that cannot be easily replaed are past their life expectancy and its only a matter of time before something else fails. Better to retire the fleet early and wait for the next generation of space craft.
Ask the surviving family members of the 14 dead astronauts.  I'm pretty sure they'll have an opinion!    
Actually, NASA should get out of the manned spaceflight business altogether.  Robotic missions are far more cost effective and NASA's much better at designing those anyway.  Also, the Russians have a far better safety record than NASA will ever have with their time-proven heavy lift rockets.  Plus, other countries should soon be able to take over shuttling back and forth to the gigantic technological boondoggle and money-pit that is the International Space Station.  This idea of trying to send humans to Mars is just plain ridiculous too.  We haven't even finished destroying the ecosystem on Planet Earth yet.  We should at least finish that before we start on a new one!
I think the basic premise here is not whether the shuttle is breaking down from overuse but that it has a basic design flaw that cannot be changed- the craft is directly in the path of broken foam pieces which have been falling off since the first mission. Theplain is that the ISS is not worth the lives of another crew.
As an employee working in the Aerospace industry for a major supplier of electronic subsystems that already fly on the Shuttle and will in the future be flying on Ares and Orion... I have at least *some* insight here, as some of my design work is already flying on the Shuttle.  

In summary, I agree with Mr Reyes statement above. Statistics can be adjusted quite easily to provide "scientific" backing for a current agenda. The reality is that 1 in 80 statistics seem more like a return to the stone age of the Shuttle mission era... Perhaps at first that risk could have been. Perhaps not. After all, nothing went wrong until Challenger, right... And now, how many missions have they flown?? The number is greater than 100. (I'd have to go look it up to say exactly anymore... It's been a while since I last saw an exact number of missions.)

In all that, there were two accidents. -Both PREVENTABLE. Both will NOT LIKELY EVER be allowed to happen again. --So just how likely is it that the next 10 or 20 missions will be catastrophic? I think not so much.

The reality, however, is that the Shuttle operations will interfere with the progress in making modifications to heritage Shuttle launch preparatory and launch pad facilities for the Ares I use. It would be a very tricky maneuver, prone to many delays, to inter-mingle the two programs for an extended period of time.

With that said, I do want to point out that the Ares I-X DEMONSTRATION FLIGHT TEST (DFT) mission is proceeding right now in its development path WHILE shuttle operations are in process. There are some schedule snafus that can happen. -Such as the Shuttle's recent delays impacting the launch date for the Ares I-X demonstration flight test.- But in the end, the DFT teams probably can use that extra time to better prepare for their test flight mission... Thus, the main impact is COST.

What amazes me is that NASA is paying to integrate a commercial off the shelf demonstration flight avionics system for Ares I-X, which they intend to essentially throw away when the DFT is done. Sadly, the majority of avionics involved are arguably robust enough to perform flawlessly for any manned space flight mission. -If only NASA had not mandated that all Ares I avionics must be original/new designs and can NOT contain any commercial off the shelf technology.

Oh well. I suppose they have their reasons, to which I would have zero insight at my lowly level as a sub-prime engineer.
We are spending hundreds of billions of dollars on greedy wall streeters who give nothing back. The space program has driven technology development and given us real tangible results, items we use every day.
I say take some of the money we'd waste on wall street and give it to NASA to fly the shuttles or ramp up the speed of Orion.
It's ridiculous that we waste money on greedy people and cut funding for the space program.

If I were one of the candidates I'd increase NASA's budget by at least 10BN/yr and tell them to do everything possible to keep us flying. If they needed more money or other assistance I'd give it to them.
I have read these articles before and watched specials on missions. One that struck me was the Saturn V could leave a hole in part of FL. Ironicly, we never waivered from the odds on the Apollo Mission and changed history. Do any of you remember when the the last Skylab missions and apollo souyz missions happened there was a long dwell in our manned space program sue to the fact that the shuttle was so high tech they had to fix many many issues. I think that the sales pitch is to scare the american people. To prove my point look at the first mission to the challanger then look at that point (1986 or 87?) till the Columbia in 2003. Now we are in 2008 so, since 1981 and over 100 missions we have had to catastrophic failures making the MTBF (mean time between failure) very long on cycle and very short off cycle. To conclude they are dropping the shuttle just as we dropped the Saturn V. When we dropped the Saturn V we lost a tremenoudus lift capablity (over 1,000,000 lbs in low earth orbit. The shuttle is between 10% and 20% of that type of lift mass. I am not talking about how much Saturn V weighs loaded and fueled I am talking about what it can lift into orbit. It put a man on the moon and could have put 70,000 lbs to Venus or Mars. IF we had kept this platform we could have built massive unmanned platforms for space probes and would have been greatly ahead. The same goes with the ISS. 10 Saturn payloads and we have more than we have now!! For NASA to have so many smart folks making awsome rescources they sure as hell love to abandon it on the skip of a heartbeat when they have a new toy comming their way!!
SAD!!
the shuttle has been a marvelous vehicle overall, despite the 2 tragedys, its accomplishments have far
outweighed the risks over the past 27 years of flight.
the real question here is , should nasa invest more money to keep em flying, in lieu of state of the art
technology? the b-52 was never conceived to fly for 100 yrs, but it just might!!!!
So sell the shuttle to a private company/lease flights from it.  Maybe a private company can figure a way to fly the shuttle safely and make improvements upon it and allow NASA to continue flights at a "reduced" rate until the new Ares/Orion system is ready for flying.  Selling the shuttle would provide NASA with funds...flying at reduced rates saves funds...more for the new Ares/Orion...
Since when was space flight considerd a safe job? If you had givin Buzz Aldrin or Armstrong a 75% Chance of crashing into the moons surface I doubt any one of the moon walkers would have steped back. The truth of the matter is.... What are the ods I am going to die in care crash driving to and from work? The space shuttle my have not been the best invention overall but. It works, I'ts old, and i'ts time to move on. However it may be highly prudent to keep the fleet in stand by operation from 2010 till Aries is ready to fly. If there is a major problem with the ISS. Lets face it... We are relying on Russia? C'mon no politics mentioned... They are not a stable country, if the soyuz program looses funding (because the country goes broke) Who rescues the 100 Billion (Or what ever it cost) Multi nation space station? The shuttle needs to be retired... But even my grandpa sometimes has to go help people get a job dun. Keep them operational and hope we dont have to use them... Other option..... Comercialize the Shuttle... Hand them over to Westinghouse or something... Selling the technology alone could pay to keep them running for another 5 years.
Another Thought: Fly the thing unmaned for the next 5 years.... If Russia flew their shuttle and landed it un maned so can NASA... Thet way if they needed to rescue the ISS crew they could fly it up un maned and they could bring it down. Or leave it up there for a life boat. build a gient space blinket and wrap it up and save it for a rainy day when the ISS breaks in half and they need to abandon ship!
"Why not just update and repair the current fleet until the Orion is ready?  Why not just cover the main fuel tank with a hard light weight plastic shell to keep the foam on?  Yes it will add some weight, but would it be worth the slight drop in cargo capacity to keep then flying?

We should push for the development of a fully reusable space transport system.  The goal should be for a craft that can take off from a conventional runway, attain orbit, deliver a payload, and return to earth to be reused again in one week.

The craft could be a single or tandem design, similar to the Spaceship One design by Scaled Composites.  The payload should be close to the capacity of the current space shuttle.  It should be able to attain an altitude of 300 miles, and stay in orbit for at least one week with a crew of five.  The cost per flight should be equivalent to a Trans-Pacific flight by a large airliner.

Once this craft is developed and successfully placed into operation, it will lead to an explosion in space industry and colonization.
"

Ummmmmmm... If you could whip one of those out NASA has a job waiting for you... Fuel Dude! An airplane style craft has two problems... A Jet Engine cant run in space and a rocket engine burns way too much fuel to fly the 6000 or so mile it would take to achieve 300 Mile orbit launching horizontal. And a 747 cant lift a loaded Space Shuttle... How could you posably acheive such a feat using the same amount of Jet fuel a 3000 Mile 40,000' Altitude airliner uses? You should get some phyics clases before telling the Folks at NASA what to invent!
Why is nobody stating the fact that the shuttles were each designed for 100 missions?  The most on any one shuttle was Columbia, which is no longer with us.

There have been about 125 missions across the entire fleet.  Provided proper care and maintenance, they should be able to fly until the new system is ready.

Not one of these amazing machines should be set aside to we can pay the Russians to keep us in space.  Doesn't anyone remember the race to space AGAINST the Russians?

Ask any astronaut who has been in a shuttle, and I doubt one would refuse a mission and say its not safe.  Since when is strapping 7 people to tons of jet fuel and shooting them into space at thousands of miles per hour safe?  NASA should be commended for their excellent safety record, having only lost 3 vehicles (17 people) over the course of 50 years!
As a former NASA Intern, I can tell you that many of the engineers within the Administration consider the shuttle program a joke. The only reason it is continued is due to the wishes of a few of the older "rocket" guys who happen to be in control of much of the administration.

What really blows my mind is that this government is still trying to lie to its citizens about anti-gravity and energy technologies that have been developed over the past 60 years through DARPA the Air Force and various other research and development programs.

Technologies that would completely eliminate the need to Oil companies or Weapons manufacturers as it is them that currently control the means of getting into orbit via extremely expensive rocket propulsion systems.

If you want to understand how free energy works, just look into zero point energy and realize that we are moving through the Universe at extremely high speeds, this gives us potential energy relative to the start of the big bang.

If you want anti-gravity, take a ferromagnetic super fluid cooled at -80F and spin it within a copper wound toroid. When you put electricity through the copper, the ferromagnetic super fluid will speed up to 60,000rpm due to the super fluid properties. Try to figure out when a ring of magnetic fluid spinning at 60k rpm might do. ;)

When it comes right down to it though, we really should just be focusing on Spaceship Earth.

The idea of relying on the Russian vehicle for transporting American Astronauts because the Shuttle wuld be unsafe is curious. The preducted orbital success rate for the Shuttle (STS) appears to be the highest amoung all the vehicles listed at:
http://www.geocities.com/launchreport/reliability2008.txt
It would be unfortuate to trade a 12% Shuttle risk for a higher risk on a Russian vehicle.
throw me the key I`ll drive it. Hitching a ride bye Russia, not such a good plan. esp opsec.
Astraunats drive them selfs to work every day.
when on the rds of america they have a greater
chance of not making it. so keap pushing
the limits.
Go Shuttle! For the life of me I can not understand why we didn't replace every lost shuttle with a newer improved one! Then the "risk" factor would decrease, we need both systems one short range and one long range. Instead of funding wars lets fund the future, and yes I'll be watching Endeavour Nov 14th from my frontyard saying "go baby go" God Bless.
I fail to see why we are even supporting the ISS. What hard science has come out of it? A waste of time and money. The shuttle? An even bigger waste.
US Adminstration (Obama by the looks of it) should order NASA to fly the Shuttle to the end of the Space Station program until 2020. Each Shuttle was designed to fly 100 missions. The Shuttles were designed to fly to and service a Space Station. ESA, Jaxa, Canadians and Private Industry should be invited to fund the required $2 to $3 Billion per year to do so. Solves Gap problem. Solves funding Problem. Fly 2 or 3 missions per year with crew max of 5. Orion- Ares should focus on Moon with contigency only to ISS. Statistically you have more chance of dying climbing Mt Everest than flying on a Shuttle-quote from Administrator Griffin. Probably more chance of being killed-injured fighting in Iraq. Orion-Ares-Altair will no doubt loose a crew or 2 in 130 missions or so. Use Pad 39B for Duel Shuttle Orion use - NASA already saying they are thinking about that. Build 10 extra external tanks and store over next few years prior to Ares 5 start. If the Shuttle is that unsafe it should have been grounded in 2003.
Has anyone calculated the odds of a Russian Soyuz launch failure over the period of time between Shuttle retirement and the Ares I first launch?  In addition, has anyone compared the risk versus benefit of each spacecraft?
We have a commercial alternative for suborbital flight now with Virgin Galactic and the Rutan space vehicle.  Until a modern substitute for the old Saturn-5/Apollo launch vehicle is available in Orion/Galileo, I suggest investing in an atmospheric launch alternative for manned flights.  Virgin Galactic on steroids, something like the old X-15 (nowhere near as large as the shuttle, but able to deliver personnel and small cargo shipments to the ISS.  Even a Gemini capsule equivalent.  Just something to fill the gap.  It's possible that the USAF already has this capability.  It's not in U.S. strategic interests to not have independent launch capability.  
Why not listen to the "experts"???  If NASA management had listened to the Engineers back in 2003, We would still have a 2003 crew of astronauts!  The problem is that there is too much politics and too few brains running things!  Listen to the EXPERTS, THE ENGINEERS!
Think about the alternative... what are the chances that in the 5 year gap, that an fatal accident will occur on a Russian space capsule? I would venture to guess that the answer is 100%... multiple times.

Look at the last two re-entries of their capsules... off course by hundreds of miles (the Russians "lost" them for 30 minutes after landing), one of them re-entered inverted by accident, resulting in a harry ride and a stronger then normal (by several orders of magnitude) impact with the ground.  Without the heat shields to protect them during re-entry, the capsule almost burned up.

And we are going to put all of our eggs in that basket?  The decrepit space shuttles look far safer to me.
Maybe the Administrator of NASA should have to fly on every mission.
The last accident ended flights altogether for 2 years. So logic would dictate to end the shuttles early and the loss of life associated with it,  and get on with building a new safer system.
Don Nelson – Good One!! After all these years of building the space station I cannot believe NASA has put it in jeopardy by not having a US vehicle ready to carry passengers and  components to the station. The worse thing they ever did is hook up with the Russians, we who have lived a long time realize the Russians will always revert to their KGB Communist ways. They use the station we built as a tourist trap and charge millions to visit the station. What the hell? How stupid can NASA Administration be to allow that to happen? Look at the period from 1963 to 1969 – no that was when NASA had some real engineers who could get things done, today they have so many overpaid PHD’s spread all over the country burning up budgets and they don’t have a craft to fly!! Get those old guys back and you will have a craft in a few years. Once NASA was state of the art – now it is one big bureaucratic paperwork nightmare that has a hard time doing much right. They are choking in their own paperwork
The original shuttle idea( 1970 1st plan)was good idea and sound. It looked liked it relyed on liquid engines and manned boosters.  Budjet cuts & buracratic squables meant that solids(SRB's) and no manned boosters won the day and doomed the shuttle. Retire the shuttle, buy the Soviet "Klipper" design and put American Ingunity to work, like was done to the AV8A design.  Remember the Saturn 5 has a 100% "safety record.
I find it disturbing that Griffin would even cite odds at all, given the nature of space exploration. How are "they" determining the variables? There are far too many factors for a statistically accurate projection to be made.

That said, I have to state that no matter what the odds, space is still a frontier region, and the fact is that people die when we first open up a new frontier. If the loss of Roanoke had prevented pioneers, the United States would not exist. How many died on the Oregon Trail? Yes, the losses of the Challenger and the Columbia were tragic, but that should not deter our efforts to press onward. NASA has paid for the investment many times over when you consider the value of the NASA spinoffs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_Spinoff

Given the volatile nature of Russia, how can we seriously consider outsourcing our space transportation? I believe we must extend the use of the shuttle. We must control our own destiny,lest we become a nation of timid bottom feeders who watch as those bolder than we claim the prime offerings of the heavens.
Read it for yourself in the MIT OpenCourseWare free video lectures by those who built the shuttle, in a forum organized by a former astronaut. This machine pushes the edge at all points, and is inherently dangerous, by design. You can listen to a lecture by the lady who made the decision to ground the shuttle in 2010; this appears to have been a somewhat arbitrary date:

http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Aeronautics-and-Astronautics/16-885JFall-2005/LectureNotes/index.htm
Well, it's like this, Dale Earnhart put it best when he was asked about the speeds they were attaing in NASCAR. He said to the reporters, "hey, let the guys run as fast as they can! They know the risk involved in the SPORT, if they want to compete they will"!
POINT IS, This will be a major risk for years to come! Anytime you strap a few people on top of a pipe full of the most explosive fuel ever created in the most complicated machines ever created, for a thrill ride, you're bound to make mistakes. We are human, we make mistakes. Lives will be lost. That is a fact we will live with forever in our explorations of space!! Astronauts know this.
As far as the funds go, OUR FAITHFUL GOVERNMENT just stole 1.5 trillion dollars to give to their pals to go out and party with, I'm sure they could steal a few billion more somewhere, or for that matter, just print it up!!!!!!!
What ever happened to the pioneering spirit of America and the human race?  The first time that we launched a human into space, nobody knew if they would survive the launch, much less the harsh environment of space.  People settling the frontier of this country risked and died for the opportunity to explore and expand the bounds of humanity.  Today we're scared of these kinds of odds, because we've decided that space travel should be as safe as any other form of transportation, but it's NOT!  And yet I haven't heard a single astronaut of the hundreds we have today say that they refuse to go on a shuttle mission.  If these people, the very lives you are so scared of losing, are willing to take the chance, then who are we as a nation to do anything but cheer them on as the brave and modern pioneers that they are!?
The math is indeed flawed from what I understand here. But there are more than just mathematical reasons as to why statistics alone, should not be relied upon to determine the fate of a program.

Statistics are very useful indicators of success or failure probabilities. But, they are not absolutes. If the 1 in 8 flight accident rate in the shuttles
case were an absolute, there should have been an accident on the 8th shuttle flight...not the 25th flight.

The 1 in 80 odds of course, would have dictated a probable shuttle disaster on the 80th flight. But prior to Challenger, the stats were skewed towards a
much higher success probability. Something like 1 in 500 IIRC.

After Challenger, it was 87 flights before the Columbia accident occurred. A far higher demonstrated actual statistical outcome than the actual outcome
of 1 in 25 resulting from the Challenger accident. In effect, a learning curve that resulted in increasing the statistical probability of success.

Based on the 1 in 80 statistical probability. It could be argued that the remaining scheduled flights should be completed without major mishap. However, one cannot rely on stats alone to make a case either way.

The Saturn V had a 100% success rate to be sure, but The Saturn V flew 13 times.

Even the shuttle managed 25 flights before its first accident. And the Saturns success rate does not reflect absolutely perfect launches each time. There were stage II engine anomalies on Apollo 6 and 13 IIRC. And unlike the shuttle, the Saturn V benefitted from development in a budget rich environment.

It should be noted that statistics were cited by Author Bill Kaysing in his claim of the moon landings being hoaxed. A use of stats that are indicative of someones absolute belief in statistical odds...or deliberate misuse of statistical information. In either case, not a strong enough reason to make a controversial claim, or base shuttle flight safety issues on.

In the Kaysing case, the stats were that the odds of a successful round trip lunar landing mission were something like 1 in .0017. In other words, a successful man on the moon mission was simply impossible by statistical reasoning, therefore NASA faked them.

The .0017 statistic reportedly came from a study by Kaysings former employer, Rocketdyne in the late 1950s, and was partly based on the data for reliability of rockets at that time.

Actual operations rather than statistics resulted in rockets eventually becoming far more reliable than they were in the 1950s. Reliable enough to greatly increase the chances of a successful lunar mission.

Something that Bill Kaysing apparently ignored.

The reason we have not developed a follow on shuttle per letter writer Jamie Logans request is that, we already tried. Programs such as the X-33 (Venture Star) were designed for that purpose.

There were several unsuccessful attempts (NASP, Delta Clipper) all eventually canceled due largely to developmental costs. While those programs did not require Apollo sized budgets, they required budgets larger than what the public and lawmakers were willing to spend...even during the Clinton budget surplus years!

These efforts culminated in the cancellation of NASAs last effort at developing a shuttle successor, the Venture Star. The Venture Star was cancelled in 2001 as a result of technical issues which made the cost
of continuation unacceptable.

The bottom line is money. You can still find people complaining about having a human spaceflight program because its too costly in their view, long after NASAs budget was cut by roughly 50% in the post apollo years.

Even President Elect, Barack Obama was calling for NASA cuts early in his campaign. Cuts he thought should go to education. Why not cut the far larger annual budget spent on Iraq if we need education money
that badly?

Unforetunately, the reality is that a sizeable percentage of folks could care less about human spaceflight, as evidenced by the current plans to return to the moon using Apollo based technology but without the Apollo sized budget.

One can only hope the private sector will do what NASA will probably never be properly budgeted for again. And thats get humans into space on a regular basis which should eventually set the stage for
exploration beyond LEO.
I have been a Documentation Artist and interface with NASA since 1981, STS-1, and at that time was a Failure Engineer for MDAC-NASA-KSC for STS.

I do know failure and CRIT-1 failure issues, especially with STS.

Since that time in '81 to current and studying all phases of STS it appears that not only should STS continue to fly but one more vehicle should be assembled to replace Columbia and augment Atlantis, Endeavor and Discovery. However, the fault tree scenario shows that we will now lose one more vehicle, regradless.

This is not entirely doom. Please read on.

The Fault Tree shows that in a 25 year operational life of the STS we would lose three ships. 1.-one on launch, 2.-one on reentry, 3.-one on orbit.  So far, the fault tree is 100% accurate. We WILL lose a third ship on orbit.  It is a given.

However, this is not some new hardware like a toaster or  some new product like some form of jello.  No, these are Space Ships. And in space exploration there is extreme risk.

Everyone involved knows this categorically.  It is not subject to debate nor is it subject to lack of resolve.

Thus, build another bird since Discovery is the oldest and most likely to exceed operational life and fail catastrophically - (CRIT 1 Failure=loss of vehicle, mission, and crew, due to one of any of the 700 CRIT-1 items that would terminate the flight if any one or more of each fails or occurs.).

With this stated as fact, build one more orbiter to augment the nearly new Atlantis, still young Endeavor, and ramp for replacement of a failed Discovery.

Now, ramp ahead with these stats in mind and operate till STS is able to be translated over, and phased out completely,  to operational next-gen transportation system*.

And do not operate with reliance on any foreign space partner.

This is risky business.  Ok, it is what we do and so live with it. Then, basically, stop hand wringing and "Go For Throttle Up!"

*I do not agree at all with a next gen space delivery system based on retro-Apollo.

Build another bird, 5-7 missions  per year. Add one more orbiter. Fly to failure. Extend STS to translation to next-gen to and from delivery system.  Simple.

Admin:  Consider.

I am,

Robert A.M. Stephens,  LLC ®
NASA Fine Art Documentation Program
Aztec-Maya Gold Expedition
http://www.behold-the-rage.com
_______________________________________________
Have Jeep, Have Horse, Have Heart, Will Travel


The point is by this administrator is that the Space Shuttle is a very poor design and should never have been launched in the first place. There's no logical reason to combine heavy lift capability with human transport and no cost savings in reuse of such a complex and high performance vehicle that has to be completely refurbished after each use. Putting humans between two solid rocket boosters was just plain stupid from day one. 14 people are dead and the responsible people just lost their jobs instead of their freedom. NASA should have been dismantled after the second disaster.
The space shuttle is old technology.  Why are solid rocket boosters still being used to begin with?  It took a private company 6 years to design and develop a craft that uses non-volatile rocket fuel to get into space.  Can we please get away from the light the fuse, back up, and hope for the best approach of getting into space?
I am sorry, but I have a hard time with the business of space. I have always supported it whole heartily and with anticipation. This is the most dangerous profession there is, and the astronauts know this and are still willing to take the risk. If I could have I would have become one. (Wrong generation) I believe we should spend more money and make space a bigger priority. We live in a country that has made great technology changes in medicine, but NASA has to beg for every dime. Yeah, I know this is not science fiction, but you know, what used to be sci fi is now reality in some fields, medicine, computers, etc. The country is looking for a business to help the economy , Space exploration could be that business. Let’s put a new urgency to space travel and the leadership to guide it into the next generation. NASA has done very well up till now, but NASA doesn’t play well with others, and I think they should be mandated to work with the private sector more and get the new shuttle up and going ahead of schedule ( using the newest shuttles till then)and then become the nation that the world looks to for leadership in space exploration.
We have stats on the topic. For every 50 flights or so we lose 1 crew.  
What I don't understand is why we designed and built a space shuttle that is unsafe to fly to begin with.  In this hurry-up job of a project. was it the fault of Congress or the Government to financially limit NASAm but yet get a shuttle up and flying?   Or has it been the bureaucratic and incompetent nature of big organizations such as NASA that doomed the project from the beginning. AS in the Saturn Moon rocket design of success---why wasn't some of that success transferred over to the shuttle program?  Some in one of the letters, blamed the administrator of NASA for most of NASA's problems---maybe a little, for not being a stronger leader that could handle people as well as hardware.  Another question is why hasn't the last few shuttles been worked on extensively to adapt more safety features---or is it that the engineers and designers worked themselves into engineering corners that they could not salve.  WE need better thinking people at MASA I believe for the future, because problems can only get worse and more diverse.
I have to agree with the NASA plan. Retire the shuttle by 2010; if one more flight is necessary to deliver a component to the ISS, then go for it - but consider the ISS is due for retirement by 2020. I believe that the future of space flight is in the private sector, with companies like virgin galactic and SpaceX - which just completed a test launch of its Falcon 1 vehicle to an altitude of 330 km.
their are glitches in any simple and complicated system and any person with knoledge of what their doing is going to make an error in what they do everyday so the odds of loosing another crew are most likly correct i work on heavy equipment and have seen more accidents from a simple lookover during a safty inspection than a osha combover nasa has had the shuttles to long and i believe they need to be retired. they mayby the most safisticated machine ever built but like any aircraft with every flight its stucture weakens and is bound to fail.  
How safe is the Shuttle? No safer than the Nina, Pinta, and Santa Maria. Odds aside, if humans never took risks they would not be the (arguably) dominant life form on this planet today.
The TV show "Life on Mars" is about a man who gets stuck back in 1973 and shows what a different mind set existed then.  I imagine it's a lot like walking around parts of NASA. What do we gain or learn investing so much in the Shuttle, Hubble, or ISS? In the 70s the Shuttle and Sky Lab replaced Apollo moon missions.  Today we should be investing in Ares, James Webb Telescope, and Orion.    
Its impossible to know for sure the unique considerations that one must take into account for each specific vehicle launch as each vehicle assembly is different.  However, the two major causes (SRB joint failure & Orbiter tile delaminations) are currently mitigated effectively, thus the failure rate will be driven by something else ("the unknown").  The STS Shuttle is the thing we know and knowledge grows with each launch - we don't get the benefit of implementing effective recurrence control as soon as we need to (budget pressure, material lead time, etc.).  Also, we get much more bang for the $$ when we go to Low Earth Orbit.  
So large chunks of falling foam are a big risk to the ceramic--address the root problem!  

Why not simply add a METAL jacket to the underside of the shuttle on the way up?  Jettison it like the SRBs, after the tank and that darn foam is clear...

Why not simply spin some mono-filament fishing line around the tank before final painting?  It'd weigh next to nothing, be locked into a web like the reinforcing threads in our money, and any falling chunks of foam would have to be smaller than the web openings...

So again, wouldn't it be cheaper to address the root problem than to rent Soviet equipment?  And it'd certainly be cheaper than the costs (AND RISKS) to "fast-rack" Aries/Constellation design any further!


I have never been a fan of the Space Shuttle, but all of this sudden concern over the risks seems overblown to me. Before the first one even launched, I had guesstimated a catastophic failure about once every 50 flights (pretty good guess, huh!), and NASA went ahead with it knowing more than I did. Why is this only now an unacceptble risk? I can believe their new crew delivery system will be safer, but not by an order of magnitude.
We have to remember that each flight carries new technology on board. Technologies that often impact human kind in positive ways. The space program is not a civilian operation or just another government operation. It is a military environment in it's risks and acceptance of those risks by the astronauts who choose to fly on the shuttle. If we are reach toward the stars, there are going to be losses, including human losses. We loose tens of thousands of people to all types of accidents each year but we do not clamor for the cessation of producing those technologies or environments that lead to THOSE deaths.

Finally, both shuttles were lost because of human error in judgment. We knew about O-ring problems before it brought it down Challenger. We knew about foam shedding being a possible risk. It's the human element that failed and took human life.


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