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Quantum fluctuations in space, science, exploration and other cosmic fields... served up regularly by MSNBC.com science editor Alan Boyle since 2002.

Alan Boyle covers the physical sciences, anthropology, technological innovation and space science and exploration for MSNBC.com. He is a winner of the AAAS Science Journalism Award, the NASW Science-in-Society Award and other honors; a contributor to "A Field Guide for Science Writers"; and a member of the board of the Council for the Advancement of Science Writing.

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How safe is the shuttle?

Posted: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 12:01 AM by Alan Boyle


NASA
The shuttle Endeavour stands on Launch Pad 39A at NASA's Kennedy Space Center
in Florida, in preparation for its Nov. 14 launch to the international space station.

Both of this year's presidential candidates - Barack Obama as well as John McCain - have called on NASA to look into the idea of flying the space shuttle fleet past its scheduled 2010 retirement date.

Now the space agency is providing some sobering estimates of the costs and the risks that would be involved - leading one seasoned space observer to wonder whether the shuttle program should be throttled back rather than extended.

NBC News' Jay Barbree, who has spent 50 years as a space correspondent, was struck by NASA Administrator Michael Griffin's guest column in Florida Today this weekend, headlined "Time to Retire the Shuttles."

In the wake of the 2003 Columbia tragedy, investigators warned that the inherent risks of the shuttle design - including the lack of a reliable escape system and the vulnerability to flying debris - were so great that the fleet had to be retired "as soon as possible."

Citing that warning, Griffin said that the shuttles "should be retired after fulfilling our commitments to our partners from Canada, Europe, Japan and Russia by completing assembly of the international space station." For the five years or so between the fleet's retirement and the debut of the shuttle's successor, NASA would have to rely on Russian spaceships to send crews to the station and back. That situation may be "unseemly," but it's less risky and less expensive than the alternative, Griffin said.

How risky would it be to keep flying the shuttle? In an e-mail, Barbree said Griffin's answer gave him pause:

"Griffin warns, 'With knowledge gained since the loss of Columbia, we estimate there is a one in 80 chance of losing a crew during any single shuttle launch.'

"The NASA administrator goes on to write, 'If we were to conduct 10 additional launches prior to retiring the shuttle, there would be about a one in 8 chance another crew would be lost. These are sobering odds - one reason why the Columbia Accident Investigation Board recommended the shuttle be replaced as soon as possible.'

"Whoa, Nellie!

"If I read this correctly, NASA feels the odds are a one-in-8 chance the agency will lose a shuttle during the 10 flights to be flown before the shuttle is to be grounded Sept. 30, 2010. If this is true, why is NASA flying these missions, even if the USA has contractual obligations with international partners to complete the construction of the international space station?

"On the drawing boards are America's next-generation rockets and spaceships, named Ares and Orion. Experts say they will be 30 times safer - one loss in 2,100 flights.

"Should NASA ground the worn and dangerous space shuttles now, and move ahead with the much safer rockets Ares and the spaceship Orion?

"A sobering question."

Does the math make sense? The 1-in-8 statistic is roughly correct, assuming that each launch truly does pose a 1-in-80 risk of catastrophe. If you make that assumption, the precise figure would be an 11.8 percent risk of encountering at least one fatal mission in any set of 10. That's somewhere between 1-in-8 and 1-in-9. Obviously, the more flights you consider, the higher the risk of suffering a catastrophe at least once. For example, the risk rises to 72 percent if you launch 100 more flights.

Combining probabilities in that way doesn't change the risk for any individual flight. The next shuttle flight, scheduled for launch on Nov. 14, would carry a 1-in-80 risk, as would the flight after that, and the flight after that, and the flight after that. (It's the same with dice: You have a 1-in-36 chance of rolling snake-eyes for each individual throw, but a roughly 1-in-4 chance of rolling snake eyes at least once in 10 throws.) 

The question NASA has to ask itself is whether each mission between now and the fleet's retirement is worth a 1-in-80 risk of losing the crew. Griffin is saying it's worth that risk for finishing the space station (and fixing the Hubble Space Telescope). But in his view, it's not worth that risk for transporting crew members back and forth - particularly if there's a Russian alternative.

NASA is required by law to lay out the risks and the costs associated with extending shuttle operations by as little as a year, or as much as six years. Griffin's guest column in Florida Today shed light on the risk question, and shuttle program manager John Shannon provided further information on the cost question today.

The Orlando Sentinel quotes Shannon as saying that the price tag would be at least $2 billion extra per year - a burden that he said would be "disastrous" unless Congress boosted NASA's budget by that amount. What's more, keeping the shuttle program running while working on the Orion-Ares system would jam up operations at NASA's Kennedy Space Center in Florida as well as the Michoud Assembly Facility in Louisiana, Shannon said.

Bottom line: Extending the shuttle program could be messier than the candidates think. There might be enough leeway to fly one more mission to deliver a $1.5 billion particle-physics experiment known as the Alpha Magnetic Spectrometer to the space station. But if NASA's current management has its way, there'd still be four years or so when the space agency is dependent on other people's rockets.

If you were Obama or McCain, what would you do with this information? Would you want to keep the shuttles in business for a couple of years longer, go with NASA's retirement plan, or pull the plug early? Feel free to add your comments below.

I'll be helping out with msnbc.com's Election Day coverage, so the next Cosmic Log posting will be on Wednesday - and it will likely be related to the election. Don't forget to vote!

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Comments

I have trouble believing these odds as they are based on what I believe to be incorrect assumptions.

While I cannot calculate the odds, the reality is that for each flight, there is a gain of knowledge and an improvement in safety. Therefore, while the shuttle does carry a significant risk based on it's history, the reality is that current risk assessments must be made upon the factors that impact safety now.

For instance, what are the odds that another piece of foam are going to strike the wings? What are the odds that another O-ring will have a burn through? Certainly not the same as they were before....so therefore the risk per flight cannot be the same.

I'd like to see a real risk assessment instead of one influence by emotion.
If the pic doesn't get the point across that it's over for the Shuttle, I don't know what does.
Looks like the boneyard to me.
I can hear the claw machine starting up from here.
Change, kids!
I gather that the risk assessment is based on the shuttle complexity and the probability of catastrophic failure of any of myriad critical components. So discovering a fix for a few weaknesses won't change the odds much.
That being said, I suppose Griffin would prefer the funding to be directed at new projects than poured into obsolete technology that might take more lives. Can't say I dosagree wuthj that.
hey again...the image above really set me off...here's what's wrong...
Not in our lifetimes...
a thought process/belief/attitude expressed by guys who had grown up during the Great Depression, fought in WWII, came home, made babies, and went to work creating a better world for those babies.
Period!
The feeling was of developing a brighter future.
If it took the rest of their lives to get the ball rolling, OK.
The grandbabies will reap the rewards.
We’ll teach everything we know to our offspring, provide as much as possible, encourage them in the right direction, and they will carry on our beliefitude.
This plan went seriously awry in the decade from 1957-1967.
There was just too muckin’ futch happening to ignore the alternatives in favor of following the beaten path.
Large numbers of the ‘not in our lifetimes’ people found themselves on the outside looking in on what appeared to be the early stages of Sodom and Gommorah.
Looking forward for the benefit of others wasn’t even on the radar of those immersed in the Bacchanal.
they had become one with it all.
Everything’s gonna be alright.
Not my problem, man.
OOPS!
...make of it what you will...

I agree with Matthew, but working against the odds is the fact the structures of the Shuttles themselves are deteriorating as well.  These shuttles have flown millions of miles and been subjected to extreme conditions not ever faced on Earth.  So, although experience does dictate safer practices and newer technologies, that same experience wears out important structural components.  Some I imagine get replaced frequently, others I imagine would require building one from scratch ( such as the body frame ).
There are ways to keep the shuttle flying safely...the first step is a new NASA Administrator.

The 1 in 80 figure is consistent with the performance of the Shuttle to date and with other space launch vehicles -- Shuttle has been among the most reliable, but it's still at something between 98% and 99% probability of success per launch.

Ed Kyle has been keeping track of launch reliabilities for a long time. See his statistics at http://www.geocities.com/launchreport/reliability2008.txt
Ask yourself this:  Would you rather fly on the 100th Shuttle mission, or on the first, second, or even third manned flight of Ares-1?  It takes a while to work out the kinks in any new launch vehicle, and failures are more prevalent in these early missions.  I agree with Mr. Reyes that the Shuttle--though far from perfect--has probably become progressively safer.
Matthew,

Your comment assumes that NASA learns and applies the correct lessons from each flight.  For instance, NASA had learned that foam impacts were "normal" and to be expected before Columbia.

My question, what is the possibility of a Russian craft crashing or exploding?
The former Soviet Union and now Russia have used, essentially, the same crew delivery system since they started space exploration, with an admirable safety record.  Quite simply: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

The Shuttle, while a marvel of technology and aerodynamics, is too complex for it's own good.  It should have the plug pulled now, so that all R&D can move on to the replacement deliver system.  The Space station will still be there and there is another viable (and safe) delivery system from Russia.  I see no need in needlessly risking the lives of Shuttle crew members.

In the day and age of our computer-aided design and manufacturing processes, we should invest in the next step, technology-wise, and go with the Orion deliver system.
"Dice have no memory." As Alan points out, the "one in 80" chance for each flight is just that, and regardless of the outcome of that flight, the odds are identical for the next launch.

One wonders how much of this risk assessment is skewed based on what Griffin *wants* to happen. It's like the politician who says, "If you don't pass this item/budget, we'll have to lay off all our cops."

NASA needs the money to do its job safely and well. And private industry needs the money to beat NASA's pants off and/or complement their abilities.
Let's become world partners.  Liz Musil, Arlington, VA
I think the major worry here, at least from my point of view, is that we will be relying on other nations to move our astronauts to and from the earth. While I do not think that additional missions should be carried out unnecessarily, the shuttle fleet, and the budget to use it, should be kept ready in case tensions with Russia should escalate. As a country, we do not want to be relying on other countries for anything that does not have a backup plan. Especially if that country we are relying on is one that may use our astronauts as a bargaining chip to gain power.

On a seperate note, as an engineer, this is a particularly exciting time for private companies to make headway in the area of space travel, and the government should enthusiasticly support that as well.
Griffin obviously has a hidden agenda.  That is to get the Ares rockets working.  Unfortunately, the Ares I rocket is a total diaster.  The private industry (Spacex and Orbital Sciences) will have their rockets and capsules flying way before Nasa will.  If Nasa had a real desire to fly the shuttle, I bet the odds of shuttle failure that Nasa presents would be much lower.

The government (Nasa) needs to provide more money to support the COTS program.  In addition, Nasa needs to get behind the space tourist industry.  Turn the private space industry loose (Spacex and Orbital Science).

I too would like to see a truly independant risk assessment. I think that with sufficent funding, the shuttle program could be extended for a few years.
WHY MAKE A STEP BACKWARDS??? THE SHUTTLES ARE MORE ADVANCED THEN ORION AND CARRY MORE.  EVEN SO AN UPDATE SHUTTLE COULD BE MADE ALSO.  BIGGER BETTER AND SAFE.  THEY HAVE THE DESIGNS FOR THIS.  WHY STEP BACKWARDS MAKE STEPS FORWARD AND BUILD THE BETTER SHUTTLE.
I say keep the shuttle flying there are alwys risk in space flight do not give up I think nasa has over the years made the shuttle as safe as possible keep up the GOOD WORK nasa GOD BLESS NASA AND OUR FLIGHT CREWS    GO NASA''''''''
My arguement is why are people so concerned about losing seven or eight people in what they know is a very dangerous environment? The astronauts are people just like the rest of us, I admire their courage just as I do our soldiers. Why the public outcry for their loss when compared to the losses suffered by other proffessionals? We don't stop everything when a train derails killing dozens, nor airplanes or boats. There is an investigation just like there is with any losses NASA incurrs whether it be equipment or human lives. We learn from our mistakes, make improvements and move forward. To depend on an undependable partner to send our people and equipment to the space station is ludicrous.
With regards to getting the hardware up to the space station, in this case, would be rocket sience!  But the answer to the question of safety isn't really rocket sience.  

You take your current vehicle inventory, pull out the launch vehicle that has the capability of launching a payload in to space and you will have an alternative. These rockets are remote managed anyway so getting it to the space station is a simple matter of flight operations programming.

Now, as for manned space flight, hitch a ride with the Russians.  That's safe enough and we won't be doing anything but saving money until our next generation vehicle rolls out.  They get a little money for their troubles and all is good.

If I'm the next president, I opt to retire the fleet after the Hubble mission or the next space station mission (which ever comes first).  This saves lives but moreover, it save a truck load of money.  While I never want to see an astronaut harmed or killed, there is also the cost to train and develop that recouse - the money saved there, allows us to place that recourse in a new vehicle without having to train someone new.  

It's simple:  To extend the fleet now would be the possible death of NASA for several years if one or two missions end in disaster - recruiting new tallent and training them.

Anybody's thoughts?
What do we do if Putin gets ornery and decides to charge $200 million to transport astronauts? Remember, without the space shuttle we could only sustain a crew of two on the space station.
With a crew of six on the space station, Russia will have to more than double the number of manned and unmaned missions. Russia doesn't have the capability to build rocket's that quickly.
Based on 100,000 monte carlo simulations at the stated 1 in 80 odds, I got an 11-12% chance of a failure in 10 missions.  Assuming that NASA's risk forecast at 1 in 80 is grossly overstated, I also looked at 1 in 120 odds and at 1 in 160 odds.  The results don't get much better.  At a 1 in 120 chance of a failure, there is a 7-8% risk of a failure in 10 launches, and at 1 in 160 the forecast is right around 6%.  If NASA's calculations of the risk are right, then your incremental improvements in safety would have to halve the risk to get to this level of safety.

I won't claim that's not possible to achieve that kind of safety increase and maintain schedule and funding profiles, but I'll suggest it's unlikely.
I think the odds are 50-50 every time the Shuttle flies. Look, they lost one going up and they lost one going down. The Shuttle was never what it was supposed to be; which was cheap, reliable, access to space. True, NASA will lose capability when they retire the Shuttle but it's time to get out of Low Earth Orbit and on to the Moon. Other nations, other companies can work on getting into LEO. NASA's mission is much more important than hanging around just 180 miles above the earth.
This usage of odds is what makes Vegas so dangerous. a 2.7% chance of rolling a snake-eyes every roll, but if you are miraculously on roll 10 and haven't hit it yet, you have a 25% chance?  Not quite how it works, but this is how the Casinos hook you and the politicians scare you.  Space travel is inherently unsafe, anytime you are combining Hydrogen, Oxygen, and a flame there is a chance for disaster, never mind leaving the Earth.  The fact remains that the Shuttle still has been the safest, mode of Space transport to date.
Having worked on the space shuttle orbiter program following the loss of Challenger, and leaving the program ten years later, I can validate the risk calculations. While the risk presented by aging hardware and marginal designs is significant, the concept of management at NASA is an even greater risk. Columbia was lost for the same reason as was Challenger: scientists and engineers putting on their management hats and ignoring protocols that could have saved both crews.

Should NASA fly the orbiter past their retirement date? In my estimate, no, not even with increased budget. To safely fly humans into space, we need a delivery and return system that can successfully compensate for a lack of sound program management that has cost the lives of two crews. If that system is still on the drawing board, NASA has no right to subject crews to a risk that the orgnization has proven it does not have the capability to manage. Better to have a technologically advanced delivery system than to continue risking human life based on demonstrated poor judgement.

Hardware is expendable; human life is not. To lose even a single crew member is an unacceptable loss.
I think we should find international support for space shuttle missions.  

The space shuttles purpose should be narrowed to delivery, repair, and return of large payloads.  Without the shuttle, there is no vehicle in the world that can return an object from orbit.  

NASA knowledge in flying a reusable vehicle should not be lost like the Apollo missions.
I know that the idea of being totally dependent on the Russian Soyuz Spacecraft to ferry crew to the ISS after the Shuttles are retired is something that make alot of people uneasy.  However, there is an American Alternative.  Space X is currently developing their Dragon Space Vehicle.  The Dragon is a pressurized spacecraft that can ferry both personnel and supplies to the ISS, according to Space X.  I have been keeping up with Space X and their Dragon appears to be something that both NASA and Congress should back in order to get it up and flying as soon as possible. Dragon should be the vehicle to bridge the gap between the Shuttles and Orion and even beyond that.
I think its been obvious for sometime (maybe since its inception)  the STS is not a completely reliable system. Anytime you have to pilfer parts from another vehicle to keep the one you have running (Enterprise) is a bad sign.

This said the shuttle program has been serviceable and has exceeded expectations due to the hard work of NASA and its partners.

Astronauts know full well the risk they take, probably more then anyone. I know they embrace it and consider themselves lucky to be in the position of exploration they are in. So to discount the shuttle due to inconclusive odds as if it were a commercial jetliner, well its just not the same. Obviously all the astronauts want to live another day, but they are more then willing to risk their lives for what they do and put their faith in the engineers to keep them as safe as possible.

In conclusion it really comes down to the future of space flight. Its obvious the usefulness on the shuttle will be cut down incredibly once the space station is complete. The future of manned space flight is the Moon, Mars and beyond, something the shuttle is not capable of.

The status of the shuttle will never be replaced. To go from cramped space capsules to something that is so recognizable and iconic as this vehicle, only to go back to the capsule design albeit modernized is something our egos do not want to see happen. In reality though its what's needed if we want to push the boundaries of putting humans in space.

Americans, especially ones who came of age in the 80's such as myself will always carry a torch for the STS, but as our parents who watched the first man walk on the moon live, we need to embrace the future and all the possibilities that can come from it.

Would the Falcon 9 rocket from SpaceX serve as an alternative to the Space Shuttle?  
- Their timeline is 2010 for the DragonLab crew module
- They are on track for approval by NASA for docking with the International Space Staion.  
- The Falcon 9 Heavy can lift 12,000 kg (26,000 lbs) to GTO.
The problem isn't really one of risk so much as it is one of budget. What keeps the shuttles safe is money. Congress generally freezes NASA's budget UNTIL there is an accident, then they raise it for a few years, and then begin cutting it again, trying to get top-line spaceflight on the cheap. It's a repeating pattern that has been in place since Apollo 1 burned. It's why human spaceflight has been stuck in LEO for the last 24 years. The shuttles are an experimental vehicle that is constantly in development. They are expensive, but they also have capabilities no other spacecraft has ever come close to. I fully support Ares/Orion, a 2-3 billion increase in NASA's budget till 2015 would allow the shuttles to continue operation safely. There is no reason to retire these birds until Ares/Orion is operational. There have been about 120 Shuttle launches with only 2 losses. So the idea of a 10% chance of loss doesn't jibe with the results, especially when considering all the safety changes made over the life of the launch system. The Shuttles we are launching now are the safest Shuttles. Spend the money to keep them that way until their replacement is in place.
This math seems flawed, a 1 in 80 chance does not become a 1 in 8 chance even with creative statistics... After the first goes without error, you have a 1 in 80 chance out of 7/8 and then a 1/80 out of 6/8... The shutdown of the space program in 2010 was an arbitrary call for a given year (for Bush to Appear Kennedy-Like) with his we will put a man on the moon and safely return him by the end of the decade... The shuttle program should run in parallel with the development of it's replacement, and the cost at $10 Billion for 5 years is equal to one less month in the Iraq War, yet the payoff is immeasurable by having a choice to get to the spacestation without having to submit to pressures from Russia when we are sole source on them given the alternative.
I agree with Matthew. Each time we lost a shuttle, it was because of a flaw that we weren't looking for. Now we are looking for them so the risk is less. If another chunk of foam hits a wing, we might loose that shuttle but not the crew.

I do think the logistics issue at the facilities is a big one. Over crowding over worked crews and too many simlutaneous tasks are the kinds of things that cause people to make mistakes.

To answer the real question though, I agree with Griffin. I'd keep the shutttles rolling only so long as to complete our current obligations + 1 Hubble trip, but I'd up NASA's budget by a Billion or two to try to get the Aries\Orion systems online as quickly as possible. Leverage the EU, Russia, JAXA, The Chinese and anyone else to move cargo and people to the station until our new systems are built and proven.

PS. Everyone talks about buying seats on the Soyuz. That was great when our economy was good and their's was in the crapper. Now, we should be able to negotiate better on this. Promise them seats on future Aries shots in exchange for Soyuz shots while we're in-between. We could even take a Russian to the Moon. If the Russians are too cash strapped to do it, Maybe the Chinese would like to partake? They could even brag that they're helping "the West" out in addition to their own high-profile program.
I would try to improve the odds, why not make modifications to the existing shuttle fleet to make them safer until the new rockets and shuttle start going into production.
The problem isn't really one of risk so much as it is one of budget. What keeps the shuttles safe is money. Congress generally freezes NASA's budget UNTIL there is an accident, then they raise it for a few years, and then begin cutting it again, trying to get top-line spaceflight on the cheap. It's a repeating pattern that has been in place since Apollo 1 burned. It's why human spaceflight has been stuck in LEO for the last 24 years. The shuttles are an experimental vehicle that is constantly in development. They are expensive, but they also have capabilities no other spacecraft has ever come close to. I fully support Ares/Orion, a 2-3 billion increase in NASA's budget till 2015 would allow the shuttles to continue operation safely. There is no reason to retire these birds until Ares/Orion is operational. There have been about 120 Shuttle launches with only 2 losses. So the idea of a 10% chance of loss doesn't jibe with the results, especially when considering all the safety changes made over the life of the launch system. The Shuttles we are launching now are the safest Shuttles. Spend the money to keep them that way until their replacement is in place.

I believe the shuttle has made about 74 flights, someone correct me if I'm wrong.  We have lost two crews.  I would say the 1 in 80 chance of losing a crew is a reasonable estimate.  It may be more dangerous than we realize, perhaps a 1 in 40 loss given past experience, or perhaps a little less dangerous, if some worst case assumptions are included which wouldn't manifest due to good maintenance or ability to repair in orbit or wait for a safe ride at the space station.

But no doubt, space travel is extremly risky.  The most risky part isn't what we can know and calculate, but it's what we can't know or calculate, until it happens. As far as the one loss in 2100 flights expected for the new system, all I can say is, Horse Hockey!  That would be more than an order of magnitude safer than the best safety record on the books.  We don't know how to build a manned  spacecraft that safe.  No one does.

The astronauts all know this.  They didn't take the job to play it safe.  Some may be thrill seekers, but most are just plain brave beyond our imagination. So the Feds messed up and left us with no access to space for 4 or 5 years.  That doesn't mean these brave young men and women should have to pay with their lives.  Personally, my pride can take the hit if it saves an astronauts life.  I would hope that everyone feels that way.

[ALAN ADDS: The estimate of 74 flights is way off. This month's launch would mark the 124th shuttle flight.]

NASA, like any other program or agency, should justify it's budget each and every year.  They should get no special bonus because what they do is "sexy".  If you have faith in the leadership of NASA, then you accept their program.  If you don't have faith, then replace the leadership - but you should still give them the authority to run their agency.

I don't know if the quoted statistics are correct or not.  However, I've not seen anyone knowledgable from NASA offer another set of data.

Speculation from the forum is interestng, but not not particularly useful.

DalGal
I am anxious to see the Ares/Orion in action and believe they should stick to the original plan of retiring the shuttles.  The shuttle are old, the technology is old and the schematics are just out dated.  They need to get the Ares/Orion up and running with all the new technology available to us now.
My big question in all of this is why does the government continue to spend money on space exploration vehicles? The private sector has indicated that they are ready to take on the capital risk of designing and building new transportation systems for LEO and beyond. In this day and age when government has better, more important tasks on which to focus, why don't we let private industry provide us with the mechanism to get in and out of space. At that point, the government isn't paying directly for the research and development but rather only what ACTUALLY WORKS, in the form of contracts to deliver: people, parts, etc. to and from the ISS or the Moon. Without the carrot of open-ended government contracts for the design of technology that might not ever be viable, private industry will be more likely to develop the most efficient, cost-effective, and safest way to get into space.

We in America take pride in being capitalists... Let's put our money where our mouths are and turn space exploration over to the private sector!
Why not just update and repair the current fleet until the Orion is ready?  Why not just cover the main fuel tank with a hard light weight plastic shell to keep the foam on?  Yes it will add some weight, but would it be worth the slight drop in cargo capacity to keep then flying?

We should push for the development of a fully reusable space transport system.  The goal should be for a craft that can take off from a conventional runway, attain orbit, deliver a payload, and return to earth to be reused again in one week.

The craft could be a single or tandem design, similar to the Spaceship One design by Scaled Composites.  The payload should be close to the capacity of the current space shuttle.  It should be able to attain an altitude of 300 miles, and stay in orbit for at least one week with a crew of five.  The cost per flight should be equivalent to a Trans-Pacific flight by a large airliner.

Once this craft is developed and successfully placed into operation, it will lead to an explosion in space industry and colonization.
While I'm glad that we are building a new spacecraft,I'd ride in the Space Shuttle today, if they would let me. I also do not think we should allow America to become dependent on the Russians for our access to space.
In this item I didn't touch upon the troubles facing the Orion-Ares launch system, but these troubles will have to be factored into the equation for figuring out what to do about spaceflight. For example, the Orlando Sentinel has this report about a CBO report claiming the Orion-Ares development effort will require $7 billion more ... or else would have to be delayed years longer:

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_space_thewritestuff/
2008/11/congressional-w.html


And there are continuing design problems with Orion-Ares, as Clark Lindsey notes in his must-read blog, RLV / Space Transport News:

http://www.hobbyspace.com/nucleus/index.php?itemid=9292

Meanwhile, SpaceX announces plans to move ahead with its DragonLab orbital science platform:

http://www.spacex.com/press.php?page=20081103

Are we witnessing the birth of a new commercial space power? Hard to say, considering that SpaceX has just one successful orbital launch under its belt. But it's definitely something for the next president to ponder.
Ok, Why is Griffin allowing more money to be spent to upgrade the shuttle and it systems if it is a poor design. We can not afford to not fly for five years (which will turn into eight years) or only fly via the Russians.
Within the next 50 yrs, and I'll be gone, you young people will see space travel turn into no big deal, much like catching a Southwest flight out of Austin is now. Seems unlikely? Well, 50 yrs. ago we were still getting hauled around in DC-3's and the like, the first jet airliners were just starting to be introduced, and Sputnik was flying around the earth, doing nothing more than beeping. I still remember the first satellite TV broadcast from Telstar...it was some stupid show from France, and only lasted about 5 minutes while the satellite could pick up the signal. That was in 1961, I think. Look at us now, and you'll all be amazed when you're my age. Wish I could stick around to watch.

I know the international partners are putting pressure on NASA to keep the shuttles flying, and for good reason.  The shuttle is the most capable low-earth orbit vehicle ever, and is really at it's finest when working with/at ISS.  Not only is crew transport important (and not relying on the vagaries of international politics for access to the ISS and the HUGE investment and potential it represents), but experiment return is also a big factor.  MPLM rack-return is a feature that cannot be underestimated.

Glad to see most posters support the space program.  Keep in mind all of NASA comprises .6% of budget.
That is, for every ONE HUNDRED DOLLARS of federal income tax you pay, SIXTY CENTS goes to NASA (all of NASA, not just the shuttle--mars rovers, Cassini, etc etc etc).  That's the kind of government efficiency and dedication that makes the USA great!
Alan, looking at the Spacex press page you referenced, it does look like NASA has seen the light, that a private company with a fraction of the cost can outcompete any government agency.  The Spacex model should serve NASA well for Mars and Beyond programs, if NASA can just get over the NIH (Not Invented Here) roadblock.  By the way, will you be invited to cover the "By Invitation Only" Spacex Users Workshop on Nov 6?  Oh, to be a fly on that wall.  
What about after the current 10 missions, sending the thing on an automated flight to the station with the AMS on board. If you can manage to safely land the shuttle automatically, you get it back and maybe continue to be able to launch (without the cost of the people) large payloads again. I know that it wasn't built to land automatically, but that modification seems like a trivial engineering exercise for a fly-by-wire craft in the this day and age. If we could continue using the shuttle to lift bit cargo without having to keep the life support functional, it seems like the cost-benefit ratio improves significantly.

10 flights at 1/80 odds do not result in an overall probability of 1/8.  Every flight will always have a 1/80 probability of failure.  For 10 flights or 1000 flights, each flight will always have a 1/80 probability of failure.

Put it this way: If you have a 1/80 probability of failure and you fly successfully 79 times, does that mean you have a 100% chance of failure on the 80th flight?  No, you still have 1/80 probability of failure.

A good start to making an educated decision on these issues is to not start with a bad set of facts.

[ALAN ADDS: I tried to make this clear in the item. If we assume a 1-in-80 chance of catastrophe is correct, then that is the probability for each event, whether it's the first, or the 80th, or the 8,000th. But if you take a set of 10 events, what's the probability that one of those events will be catastrophic? What you're actually doing is asking what are the chances that you can go through 10 events with no catastrophe, and then taking the remainder of the probability. The formula for this  would be 1 - ((79/80)^10). That's where you get the 11.8 percent chance. The dice-rolling experiment is actually instructive on this, if you roll 10 sets of dice at a time. You should have snake-eyes among the 10 dice rolls roughly a quarter of the time. So if you actually do 80 flights, are you certain of having a catastrophe at least once? Obviously not. This'll really fry your mind: The formula indicates that you have a 63.4 chance of having at least one catastrophe. Of course, that includes the chance that you have more than one catastrophe in a set of 80.]

I agree with the concept of retiring the Shuttles in favor of the new systems in development; however, those systems will leave the US without what admittedly is one of NASA’s shining stars that being a capability to return manned servicing missions to spacecraft already in orbit. Taking the “Man Rated” requirement out of heavy lift systems makes the best sense.

While there is certainly a diminished need to use a vehicle like the shuttle in the future, there some things that it is still the best option for like returning large payloads to earth. I as a US taxpayer and therefore shareholder of NASA, will expect these capabilities to be recreated in an updated form for future orbital operations.

With our experience and expertise, a repair module that remains at the station or in orbit, capable of rendezvous’ with a CEV, is certainly within our means. Propulsion modules can be lofted with unmanned systems and then docked with whatever orbital system needs them.

As for when the shuttles should be retired; as soon as the existing hardware that has been built and designed for shuttle launch is on orbit, the shuttles need to be retired. That should include any remaining MPLM’s that could be docked with additional equipment/facilities for future use even if it’s only spares. The modules can provide additional storage/berthing for future transiting crews or safe haven in the event of an emergency. The shuttle’s robot arms could be left in orbit as well on each vehicle’s final voyage.
I believe we should not scrap the shuttle and instead send politicians in the place of astronauts until the new and improved space ship is ready. That is my scientific opinion.
You misunderstood the memo.

Griffin said 10 ADDITIONAL flight (i.e after 2010), so the odds at the moment are still 1 in 80, like he previously said.
The easy way to calculate the odds is to take the inverse of the odds that it does NOT fail:

(79/80)^10 = 88.18% chance all 10 missions succeed.



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