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Quantum fluctuations in space, science, exploration and other cosmic fields... served up regularly by MSNBC.com science editor Alan Boyle since 2002.

Alan Boyle covers the physical sciences, anthropology, technological innovation and space science and exploration for MSNBC.com. He is a winner of the AAAS Science Journalism Award, the NASW Science-in-Society Award and other honors; a contributor to "A Field Guide for Science Writers"; and a member of the board of the Council for the Advancement of Science Writing.

Check out Boyle's biography or send a message to Cosmic Log via cosmiclog@msnbc.com.



Where the shuttle went wrong

Posted: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 7:40 PM by Alan Boyle


NASA
Click for slide show: See scenes from Columbia's last mission.

"Space Shuttle Disaster," a documentary premiering on public TV stations tonight, traces the bad decisions that led to the shuttle Columbia's fatal breakup in 2003. But this isn't just about a five-year-old tragedy: The show also demonstrates why the 27-year-old space shuttle program has turned into a dead end - and why investigators say NASA must resist the temptation to keep the space planes flying for any longer than absolutely necessary.

"Extending the shuttle is taking unnecessary risks that could doom the whole program if there were another shuttle accident," said John Logsdon, a space historian at the National Air and Space Museum who served on the Columbia Accident Investigation Board. "Even though the shuttle has been improved since its return to flight, it's still a risky vehicle."

If the shuttle is so risky, why was it built that way? Didn't NASA realize how risky it was? Such questions get a prime-time spotlight in "Space Shuttle Disaster," airing on PBS as part of the "Nova" documentary series.

Close observers of the shuttle program might not find all that much new in the program. In fact, Logsdon told me this week that developments since the Columbia tragedy have served only to confirm the conclusions reached by the accident investigation board, also known as the CAIB.

"It reflects what a comprehensive job CAIB did," Logsdon said. "I think we nailed the situation pretty well."

The show also nails the situation well, starting with its examination of the shuttle program's historical roots. Just after 1969's historic Apollo 11 moon landing, NASA and the Nixon White House settled on a plan to build a reusable shuttle fleet and an orbiting space station for the next phase of space exploration. The idea was that the shuttle would serve as a low-cost "space truck" to bring people as well as cargo into orbit on a weekly basis, with the station serving as a jumping-off point for further exploration.

But the development cost for the shuttle turned out to be so high that plans for the station had to be thrown into limbo. That served as an early indication that the shuttle concept wasn't as efficient or as elegant as NASA thought.

In 1986, the Challenger explosion showed that the shuttle wasn't as safe as NASA thought, either - due to a booster design flaw that had long been ignored. The shuttle and its seven crew members were lost as a result.

The space agency agonized over its "safety culture." It redesigned the booster O-rings and returned the shuttle fleet to service.

A similar set of warning signs was ignored in the run-up to the 2003 Columbia tragedy,. "Space Shuttle Disaster" focuses on the shuttle fleet's problems with foam insulation debris from the external fuel tank - which was a known issue well before Columbia's final launch. Investigators concluded that a chunk of flying foam, seen in close-up views of the shuttle's ascent, blew a hole in Columbia's left wing and set the stage for the shuttle's fiery, fatal breakup 16 days later.

During Columbia's flight, some engineers tried unsuccessfully to get a better fix on what the foam did to the shuttle. And even after Columbia's loss, some experts inside NASA didn't believe that a lightweight piece of foam could do such damage. "Space Shuttle Disaster" replays the actual tests that proved it could.

Once again, the space agency agonized over its "safety culture." It redesigned the external fuel tank and returned the remaining shuttles to service. But this time, it also decided to retire the fleet in 2010, once construction of the international space station is complete.

The designs for NASA's next generation of spaceships follow the safety recommendations made by the accident investigation board, Logsdon said.

"One of our recommendations was to be sure to separate the crew-carrying from the cargo-carrying function as you go to space," he said. "The approach that's being taken for the new Vision for Space Exploration does precisely that."

NASA's proposed Orion crew vehicle is meant to ride at the top of a rocket, where there's far less risk from flying debris. It will also have a built-in escape rocket system in case the launch goes awry. Once again, however, building the spaceship is turning out to be more expensive and time-consuming than NASA would like.

That has led some lawmakers - including Republican presidential candidate John McCain and his Democratic rival, Barack Obama - to call on NASA to consider the option of extending the shuttle's retirement date past 2010. Some would even like to keep the shuttles flying until the Orion is ready, in the 2015 time frame.

That would be a big mistake, Logsdon said. He pointed out that NASA has estimated the probability of losing the crew on any single post-Columbia shuttle mission at 1 in 80. Adding another 10 flights between 2010 and 2015 would obviously add to the risk of another disaster.

That caution doesn't rule out adding one or two flights to take care of some important unfinished business, such as the delivery of the $1.5 billion Alpha Magnetic Spectrometer to the station. Right now, there's no room on the schedule for an AMS delivery, but some lawmakers want to give NASA more money to cover the cost of an extra flight.

"Flying one or two more flights in 2011 would not bother me very much," Logsdon said.

Looking beyond the shuttle, some space activists have suggested that commercial spaceships such as the SpaceX Dragon could help NASA fill the spaceflight gap. Logsdon said SpaceX's launch system - or Orbital Sciences' alternative, or still more spacecraft from Europe or Japan - would do a fine job for delivering cargo to the space station. But he would see cause for concern if NASA turned too hastily to unproven spaceships for crew transport.

"There are lots of variables at play in this," he observed. "It's a wicked, complex problem, but you can't risk human lives on unproven systems."

The best option, or the "least bad" option, would be to use those other spacecraft for cargo but continue using Russian Soyuz spaceships for crew transport, Logsdon said. Even though U.S. and Russian leaders may not see eye to eye on earthly matters, and even though NASA may wish things were different, the two nations are bound together in space for the foreseeable future.

Would things have turned out differently if NASA had stuck with the Apollo-Saturn system for space exploration, instead of starting from scratch with the shuttle? That's a topic worth chewing on in the comments section below. Feel free also to weigh in on whether "Space Shuttle Disaster" makes an accurate diagnosis of the shuttle program's problems, and whether Dr. Logsdon's prescription is the right one. If you miss the show on TV, never fear: You can watch the whole program online starting Wednesday.

Update for 9 p.m. ET: And now for something completely different ... NASA will air a documentary titled "50 Years of Exploration: The Golden Anniversary of NASA" on the agency's Public and Education channels at 9 p.m. ET Wednesday. Host for the 90-minute documentary is Apollo 11 moonwalker Neil Armstrong.

The show features interviews with former senator-astronaut John Glenn, Apollo flight director Gene Kranz, science-fiction author Ray Bradbury, Nobel-winning physicist John Mather and former Presidents George H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton. "50 Years of Exploration" will be rebroadcast at 1, 5 and 9 p.m. ET on Thursday and Friday, NASA says in its TV listing. Some cable systems air NASA TV, but the most reliable way to find it is online.

NASA TV's YouTube channel offers what appears to be a sampling of the documentary for anytime viewing.

It's also worth mentioning that the Discovery Channel has served up some tasty footage in its documentary series "When We Left Earth: The NASA Missions." The series' six episodes, plus hours of extras, are now available on DVD.

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Comments

why stop the space shuttles from going out to space??!!??
Its probably time to get out of space for a while. Too many things to straighten out here at home. When did science truly ever help mankind? We'd be better off being still in the caves. At least they didnt have nuclear weapons.
Gaia Two was first presented to NASA as a replacement for Shuttle via Frank McDonald in 1982.
The comment was 'thanks, but NASA will continue with its plans.'
Same ol', same ol'...the bureaucrats gave themselves lifetime positions, doing the same things as they did in the 1960s.
and that's the way it is...
We as a nation have forgotten what true exploration is like. Any endeavour that carries so much value, will by necessity be inherintly dangerous. The Space Shuttle is and was no different than any previous space craft. Humans are subjected to an environment in space that is beyond any other, and the risks are well known and documented. I applaud the men and women of NASA and the space program, the astronauts and their families for understanding these risks, and their willingness to allow themselves and their loved ones to assume such risk. If we feel that we can just retreat to our small planet and forego space, then we have lost our will and our built in quest for the unknown. What a sad day that would be for humanity.
Dear Mr. Boyle,

  What you say is of course largely on the public record. The problem however, is that the political process always intervenes in the design, building and especially in the case of the shuttle, operations.    
  Politicians, many who barely possess the technical acumen to roll the pearl on the their Blackberrys are deciding what money is "needed" for such programs. The silly cost cutting and "making the shuttle pay for itself" nonsense of the Reagan administration surely destroyed Challenger and 7 wonderful people in as much as any O-ring failure did. However, it seems that in the world of non-accountability, there is no leader like JFK for example who will say..."yep we were responsible..we will fix this etc." They just do not seem to get it. The shuttle is far more hazardous that it needed to be and far less capable that it could have been if not for extreme requirements placed upon it by the US military and then never used. So the shuttle has these big wings and a 1500 mile cross track recovery capability that is simply a waste of mass. If the STS system had more ability the shuttles could have gone to the synchronous orbit and if you can get this high why not go to the moon? etc. Nope, each shuttle barely crawls into low Earth orbit and somehow we are satisified. If we had done this correctly, then we could have built two shuttles at the beginning and then a new on every fives years incorporating the lessons learned from the previous versions. We could have morphed into a new technology seamlessly in my view.
  We have to remember regardless of the vehicle (Apollo, STS , Soyuz) etc. No space system in history has has anywhere near the number of launches that the shuttle has enjoyed and no system can come anywhere near its stunning set of successful working in space missions. The two tragic (and easily preventable) accidents were in the first case an example of massive underfunding and an operations climate that put a fear of program cancellation ahead of sound operations. The second disaster was also an operations fiasco as the problem was not foam shedding fro the tank, it was this briefcase sized piece of foam stuck onto the tank *afterward* Considering the crazy drag and vibration forces encountered during launch, it should be clear to even an engineering student that we do not stick *anything* to the foam. Oh well...
  When the STS first flew everyone was terrified of the main engines. They were cutting edge and so they were tested and retested. Testing costs money. A lot of money.
  I am tremdously grateful to the US for its space exploration investments and accomplishments, but it is a shame that the people who know how to do it are always being squeezed. This is no way to operate an unforgiving technology. As Prof. Rchard Feynman wrote in the Challenger report appendix. (I paraphrase here) "...for a successful technology the laws of physics must take precedence over public relations for Mother Nature cannot be fooled..." I behooves this round of Congress members to remember that the space club costs a lot of money. Discount fares only kill dedicated astronauts and destroy national assets. If they are not willing to pay the full fare then SHUT IT DOWN. Space costs the average taxpayer peanuts in comaprison to the military or the current vogue to bail out irresponsible bankers. This is one technology that has more than once led the technology transfer industry and easily made a profit for the US and other nations by association. It deserves more than most to be taken seriously during budget talks allowed to operate properly and safely.
NASA's other mistake was scrapping the Saturn 5 and relying on "Solid Boosters Rockets!
When I joined Rocketdyne in the late 1970's the scrap yard was full of completely or partially complete F1 and J2 engines and tooling. They were sold for scrap.

If you all had any idea how much Rockwell hid from NASA you would never want the shuttle to fly again. The weld joints attaching the Inconel jacket to the Narloy Z combustion chamber where full of liquid metal embrittlement yet they lied to NASA that the problem was fixed. The weld joint holding the base plate and injector rods failed during pressure test and almost completely blew out of the hot gas manifold. At the time it was under 7500 PSI of hydrostatic pressure and if the weld had failed instantly it had the possibility of blasting through the pressure safety door and launched towards the Topanga Mall.

Please just let the space shuttles go into retirement now that they and the main engines have reached their end of life design before more astronauts are killed.
Thanks public TV for showing us once again how you just can't help yourselves when it comes to another bash AMERICA first documentary. We are aware of the even more bad decisions leading to the current public broadcasting system on TV. Most americans will and do support the space program.
Did we get out of space so as to let the Chinese in? Of course space travel is risky. Why not ask the astronauts if they are willing to take the risks? My guess is that most would answer in the affirmative. Everything in life entails risk. Are we so timid that we cannot take risks?  Columbus, Magellan, Amundsen, and all the great explorers took greater risks. So did the troops who fought this nation's battle. Have we grown so soft and decadent that we can no longer take risks?  This country was founded and developed by strong people who took big risks to accomplish their goals. John F. Kennedy inspired us to explore the universe. It appears we got to the moon and then fizzled out. Whatever happened to the American spirit?  Am I the only one who is bothered by this?
In the early 70's I attended the public announcement of the Shuttle.  The venue speaks volumes about NASA's attitude about the end of Apollo and the the start of the new Shuttle.  The event was held in the Lubbock, Texas Municipal auditorium on short notice.  Almost no media showed up.  Werner Von Braun displayed the now familiar shuttle, solid booster, and external fuel tank stack.  He mentioned in passing that the original concept had been a runway launched carrier plane to lift the shuttle/fuel tank  assembly to ~ 30,000 ft at 500+ kts., then an in flight separation with the shuttle pressing on to orbit.  
Budget constraints killed the development of the very expensive carrier plane.  Thus was born the kludge that was ultimately built.
 
Notice that the two shuttle failures were caused by elements added to make the shuttle a vehicle that could actually be afforded in the climate of the early 70's.

1. The original concept had no solid boosters to fail with low ambient temperature weakened segment seals.

2. The original shuttle/fuel tank had a different configuration.  Since the carrier and shuttle would have been mated until separation, the shuttle could have been closely monitored for damage in the run up to separation.  The wing damage that destroyed Colombia occurred early in the launch, well before the 500 Kt. separation speed on the original concept.  The mission could have been safely aborted and returned to land with minor damage and no loss of life.

When the shuttle project contract was let, the Apollo contractor bid the job using their experienced staff. The contract was won by a company that bid the job using all new college hires. The apollo team moved on to rewarding careers in fast food and lawn maintenance.

Many of the early delays in the shuttle can be directly linked to the inexperience of the designers.
(The very late realization that the fragile thermal protection system would require a continuing extensive amount of maintenance. The hugely optimistic belief that the main engines would only require major attention every 6 to 10 missions, not every mission as is the practice now. etc. forever.)

For all that it works.

Yes it is very dangerous, all current ways of leaving the planet are.  If the Saturn 5/Apollo had remained in service it would probably have had many more failures than the shuttle. It's only saving grace would have been the much lower cost.

The proposed replacements for the shuttle only have one major advantage; 21 century technology and new hardware.  (The shuttle is 1970's tech. with 30 year old hardware.)

Unfortunately, I don't think any of the new hardware will ever be deployed.  Everything I see points to a new dark age for anything but taking ever higher resolution pictures of our belly buttons (navels for those of you with at least a 9th grade educations.)
I worked with the physicist that developed the shuttle reentry profiles.  The 1500 cross grade capability was just a pleasant benefit of the large hypersonic S turns required for the shuttle to land at the destination of it's choice.  The "big wings" were and are the only solution found so far for controlled hypersonic reentry.
Until NASA changed the shuttle foam to be CFC free, the only foam that came off was in small irrelevant pieces.
Ever since, the foam has had problems shearing off in much larger pieces. bye bye shuttle.
Have to agree that the scrapping of the Saturn 5 was a big mistake.  What ever happened to the America will do do the improbable (sending man to the moon and safely returning to the Earth) as espoused by JFK.  As for the "International Space Station", for all the billions it cost (not including getting it up there, what is the payback?
One of the political intrusions in this situation, and probably critical to the design flaws was the original contract award:  Originally, Grumman Aerospace of Long Island, NY, was notified that Grumman had been awarded the contract for the shuttle.  Then communications went silent.  It was finally re-announced that Rockwell, of California, President Nixon's home state, had been awarded the contract.  

And yes, scrapping the Saturn 5 was a mistake.  The technology has not been equaled.
I couldn't have said it any better than John from  Denver, Colo and Henri Ban Bemmel from Keswick, Ontario!!!!!
The Shuttle fleet has only used up 1/3 of its intended flight time.  These ships were designed to fly 100 missions and yet, people are now putting down their foot on flying further missions.  Reasons:  dangerous, old technology,(let the Russians do it), etc.  One forgets that Congress will probably not fund further investments in Russians launches beyond 2011. This is due to the unpredictability of our relations with the Russians.  So much for international space station!  We probably will be 100 billion dollars in the whole and not being able to go to the ISS for 5 years or longer. I guarantee that we will be delayed with this Orion project. By this time, 2011, we could always beg a flight from the Chinese, they only be to happy to 'give' us a ride for propaganda purposes.  Stick out your thumbs naysayers to hitchhike.
To Tom, IL; re: Caves.  Tom, we'll let you be the first one to return to living in caves, using stone implements and retreating behind the fire at night for protection.  No internet, no hybrid foods like corn or wheat, no indoor plumbing or soap, etc.  Try it for a few years and let us know if you think science and the improvements it brings to life might just be worth the associated costs.
Why have education without NASA? NASA has been underfunded for so many years. Private Industry is no more than a kite when compared to NASA's capabilities. They are finding out the hard way that space is expensive and dangerous.

The ROI still exceeds $7 - so for every dollar pumped into NASA - $7 returns to the public. Many things we do not see or even realize. It's always been this way throughout history. Those Nations that withdrawl from science and discovery - seemingly disappear. Look for yourself. History doesn't lie. It's amazing, with all our intelligence - we are unable to grasp this one, simple fact!
So flying into space is dangerous... DUH!  You would thing someone like John Logsdon would know that but it sounds like he is just trying to validate conclusions he came to as part of the CAIB.  Yes, it's dangerous, very dangerous... But, so was sailing across the Atlantic ocean in leaky open boats.  At least we can see where we are going in space.  Early sailors often had no idea what was beyond the horizon yet they sailed on.  How many tens of thousands were lost at sea?  Yet they sailed on.  Without the brave explorers of yesteryear we wouldn't have the brave explorers of today.

The human losses in manned spaceflight have been miniscule compared to almost any other exploratory endeavor, yet they are constantly blown way out of proportion.  Also, please remember that every human killed in manned spaceflight accidents has been a willing and eager participant.  Of course they did not want to die, but they knew the risks and were willing to take them to achieve the goal.  They all died with their eyes wide open.  

I suspect that what most nay-sayers really object to is the expense which is indeed (& no pun intended) astronomical.  Yet, so were the exploratory voyages of the 15th thru 19th centuries.

I wholly agree that the STS has myriad flaws but it is a relatively proven and known technology.  So why didn't NASA build it without those flaws in the first place...  What human device is built without flaws?  The shuttle was built with the best technology available in the 1970s.  Their biggest mistake (IMHO) was in not building the design modularly enough that crucial components could be easily replaced as improved technology became available.  My feeling is that, rather than return to single use vehicles for access to space, we need to invest in a modernized version of the shuttle.  We have much superior computing technology than when the shuttle was first designed.  We could rebuild it... smaller, lighter, faster and safer than the current version.  Would this new version be completely safe?  Of course not, but neither would a single-use vehicle.

One of the advantages of multi-use vehicles is that when it comes back you can check it out and see what works and what doesn't.  A single use vehicle is virtually thrown away each time it is used and the materials are not even (to a great extent) recoverable for examination.  It is also wasteful of natural resources and is akin to throwing away the 2 liter soda bottle but recycling the cap.

One last point...  Do we really want to rely upon the Russians to get us into space from 2010 to 2020?  Thats how long it will likely take to get a reliable and relatively safe single use launch system into place.  Don't believe for one second that this project will be done on time.  What government project ever is?  The only one I know of was the original Apollo program but we have neither the motivation nor the leadership to do that today.

Keep flying the shuttle as long as possible and surely don't kill it before it's time...
I have to admit that I will be sad to see the shuttle go.  Growing up in the 80's, the shuttle was the coolest thing a kid could have ever dreamed to pilot.  It was extremely sad what happened to Challenger and Columbia, but those two vehicles helped our knowlage today of what not to do for vehicles in the future.  And think...we got almost 30 years of use out of something that has gone millions of miles and carried millions of tons of people and equipment to possibly help our life down here.  Remember that the shuttle was also a "green machine", and future ships might not be (enviromentalists unite!).  I will have never gotten to see a takeoff or landing live in person, but I wish the shuttle all the best
NASA and the space program have given us many technologies and advancements that we use in our everyday lives, for one thing. (To answer a question of when science has really benefited mankind) Not to mention, the incredible advancements in medicine, communication, and information sharing that have resulted from science.

I have studied astronomy, geology, and paleontology since I was a child and have also been a christian since my early years as well. Thus having said that, I believe that to not explore what this universe has to offer and to turn our backs on science or to true exploration of the unknown could be construed as an insult to what has been created. If we do not make an attempt to understand God's creation, how can we truly appreciate it. I believe that mankinds future lies in the stars and that NASA's continued efforts are essential to that future.
What ever happened to the X Project winner, the lifting wing spaceplane?
The space shuttle program and the ISS is the porverbial "bridge to nowhere". This program set back space exploration by 40 years. The idea that astronaughts (sic) could become glorified truck drivers is too silly, even for a beenie wearing geek like me.
Reusable!  That's what the politicians sold us on in the early 70's.  It was a mistake to scrap the program that was in place back then.  As I recall, each moon mission cost about $300-400 million (that's what; about the cost of a B-2 bomber today).  $700B (the bailout) could go a long way today in getting us toward the moon and Mars.  
Tom, you really think we'd be better off "living in caves?"  Are you truly serious?  As for "when science ever helped mankind," the absurdity of this question barely merits a response.  How many lives have been saved because of advances in medical science, how many saved because of advance hurricane warnings from satellites, how many deaths averted due to advances in automotive technology such as airbags?  The obvious irony of all this is that you're using a computer and the Internet to post your comment....  are you going to get a hi-speed connection while living in "your cave?"  [...]
The United States needs to regain the lead in the exploration of outer space. Going back to the moon is just the start. During the Project Apollo the United States took a big lead in industry and technology. Many of the things that we take for granted in our daily lives happened because of the space program. We can advance at a faster pace in our efforts to explore outer space.
Take off from a Runway, land on a Runway. That was the original concept of the Vehicle to replace Apollo. The Shuttle was a design that resulted in everybody adding their own pet concept to the Orbiter.
This included people who had influence with members of Congress who also owned factories that employed people who were all registered to Vote. This is how politics works, and this is how it will continue to work unless we end up with a President that is economically successful enough and popular enough to be able to prevent politics as usual and allow the best design to actually reach the top of the Idea Vat.

This is also why our best bet is to look to the private sector to build the next best space ship, be it Sub-Orbital, Orbital, Lunar, or a Planetary craft.
I like the shuttle, a lot. I grew up dreaming of being an astronaut and flying in the shuttle to space. The mere image of the shuttle inspires me to dream about the grand things here on earth and in space.

With that being said, it is time to move onto a new launch vehicle. The shuttle *is* getting old and unsafe. It has also shackled us to near earth orbit instead of setting us free to explore the moon (again) and Mars and elsewhere. We need a vehicle to take us to the places we haven't explored. We need to leave the orbital exploration to the private sector much the way Old World exploration was done. With governments spending the money to reach the farthest flung places so that private entities can follow and develop its resources (hopefully not the same way history records though).

Government does many things half... heartedly, but almost never does anything well. The singular exception I can see is exploration down through the ages. So lets take advantage of one of its rare strengths rather than retreat to our little bubble in fear of what lies beyond our direct line of sight or what we may or may not do in this place or that. I am all for fixing things here but we are a nation of many people, as such we can do many things at once. Let us do this one great thing while we also do the things needed here.

Truly, humans are defined by how they expand their understanding through their lives. Space (as the sea was) is a natural extension of that and in fact is the manner in which our species demonstrates that at the end of the day. We are not a reclusive cowardly bunch. We are bold, curious, and intelligent. Let us put the desires of our hearts in deeds not just words.

Okay, I will get off the soapbox now. But seriously, the idea that we should leave space because we have problems on Earth is akin to not mowing the lawn because the dishes are dirty in your house. Ask your spouse to do the dishes while you mow the lawn!

As for the topic of the article: Dr. Logsdon's ideas don't sound far out to me. But I have heard precious little in the way of contructive (and practical) alternatives being offered up from anyone either.
Anytime you try to make something do more than one thing it usually doesn't perform either task very well. Look at car/boats, or car/planes...Putting people into space  requires different things than putting cargo up there. Flying a plane in atmosphere is very different than moving a craft through empty space. the course they are taking now seems to be getting back to the more prcticle and reliable methods used previously. I applaud NASA. The Shuttles were necessary to get us this far but it is time to move on.
The problem with powered space travel is exactly that, the large red liquid fuel filled, heavy, tank that the shuttle must haul up into space and then jettison once it empties. The solution to it all is very expensive and much safer. A magnetic rail system powered by multiple nuclear power facilities, which stretches miles, which would be capable of delivering a fairly large payload to a stable orbit. If the distance is sufficient, then the crew, a much larger crew, would not have to deal with high-G acceleration. AT a rough 7 mi/s escape velocity, or 25200 mi/hr, at 200 miles that is only 126 miles per hour per hour. This is roughly 11 m/s or 39600 m/hr, earthly gravity is roughtly 9.8 m/s/s. I haven't the science to work out all the bugs, but the big picture has been ignored. The problem is that instead of throwing everything into this kind of massive project, which will provide infrastructure to space exploration, we send up one rickety, old shuttle at a time, one that carries large amounts of fuel, and thus can carry only small payloads, and passengers.
It is an excellent documentary and one that brought tears to my eyes.  Neil deGrasse Tyson did a fine job with the narration.  The shuttle is a futuristic concept but needs scramjet technology, not rocket engines to achieve the promise of economy and reuseability.  Until scramjet and or space elevators can be developed for routine vs. experimental use, it is more practical to begin establishing a permanent human presence in the solar system beyond earth where only rockets can take us.
The main flaw (well, "flaw" is a harsh word, how about "limitation") with the space shuttle is that it was limited to "missions to planet Earth" and was not designed to even go to lunar orbit let alone a solar orbit or anywhere else in the solar system.

Then, in the "nice to have" category would have been a shuttle that takes off like an airplane as well as lands like one.
The space program must continue!  If we have to wait for the Constellation Program to get us back to the moon, than I say wait!  To insure humanities survival we must venture into our solar system and explore Mars, Europa, and Titan.  We need to venture to the other planets and learn the mysteries that have dumbfounded us for centuries.  A comment on this board suggested that we live in caves as science hasn't helped anyone...  SERIOUSLY!??  I can't believe a human alive today would say that.  This isn't turn of the century church beliefs...  This is science.  This is the same science that has increased human life span exponentially.  This is the same science that saw 12 brave men to the moon and back.  This is the same science that created cell phones, laptops, and the internet.  Yes, with technology comes destructive power.  That's gonna happen.  However it is vitally important to continue the space program responsibly.  Death and sadness will occur.  If we gave up after the Apollo 1 disaster, where would we be?  If I had the potential to become an astronaut, I would do it in a heartbeat and lay my life on the line for humanity's sake.  NASA is one of the greatest programs ever created and must continue.  Within 60 years of the Wright brother's first flight, Neil Armstrong stood on the moon.  AMAZING!  Let's keep it up.  Let's continue forward.  Let's be adventurous and take the chances our forefathers took.
Why not just skip all this and go back to the first NASA idea that was named Orion, use nuclear weapons to propel a truly huge ship into space.  The largest Orion design on the drawing board was capable of lifting 8 million tons.  Ok, sure, you have to set off some nuclear weapons within the earth's atmosphere to get it off the ground but given the right conditions it could totally be worth it.
I will volunteer to go on any space mission they want!

Even if it were a failure/one-way trip.  

We need a National Vision and a goal that gives us pride.  

I would rather give NASA the 700 Billion and see what they could do with it in five years.
What killed the space program - and, by this, I mean, true space exploration (the space shuttle is just a place-holder,) - was human nature. Within hours of the first moon landing, people were on the street saying things like "We can put a man on the moon, but we can't cure cancer/make a decent cup of coffee, etc..." Cynical, but irrelevant.

The key is that we proved that democracy was superior to communism by being the first to land a man on the moon, so there was no point to pushing beyond.

Until we have a political motivation again, we will not do anything serious in space.

The good news is that that political motivation is coming. As soon as China lands on the moon, you can bet your last dollar we're going to go to Mars.

We should at least entertain the idea of re-vitalizing the Energia project. This late-Soviet design was successfully launched in the early nineties with a cargo capacity equivalent of three shuttle launches.  There was work on a system that could throw up to eight shuttle launches.  Instead we develop a new system from scratch.  I have high hopes that Aries I/V will work out.
Anyone consider exploring the depths of our oceans if we need to expand our horizons beyond Earth or "earth", as the case may be.  There's oxygen to be milked, muscle-sustaining gravity, no radiation, no rockets required, food to be harvested, and you can get back to land relatively easily.  As glamorous as it is to explore foreigh orbiting bodies in space - humans simply can't live there, so what are we going to do once we blast a half-dozen brave souls off to Mars or beyond?  How many billions per individual would it cost to get anyone else out there, much less sustain them?
The space program (especially the race to the moon) inspired me and a generation of American kids to go into science and engineering to invent machines to further the frontiers of technology.

Let's be honest, NASA nailed the concept for a moons-hot vehicle with the Saturn 5 / Apollo, and bit of more futuristic concept than it could chew with the Shuttle.  We went from a workhorse heavy-lift capability to a lower-lift capability "Space Truck" that can only achieve low earth orbit.  There is a place for the latter concept, but it is hard to do that cheaply with a "re-usable" craft that requires so many design compromises, just to be re-usable.

So the Russians, French, Japanese, and now Chinese are pursuing efficeint expendable launch vehicles that are designed for a specific purpose, instead of something that tries to do too many different things, like the Shuttle.  We can bash the Shuttle all day, but we have learned a lot from it, and there is value in that.

It sure looks like the Constellation / Orion concept borrows heavily from the Saturn / Apollo concept, with the use of some efficient, reliable Saturn AND Shuttle hardware.  The man-rated Ares I lifter has its task simplified to only lofting the Orion capsule to low-Earth orbit.  I applaud NASA, because I think the new Ares I / Ares V / Orion concepts seem to be well-thought out, in terms of offering a range of capability and avoiding the vehicular design flaws of the Shuttle System.

We need to press ahead with some meaningful mission for NASA.  A trip to Mars would be inspirational, if Mars weren't so far away and require a mission of something like 2 years.  There is still a lot that can be done in Earth orbit and the Moon.  America's technological leadership will wither on the vine, if we toss our Space Program on the scrap heap.  We can debate the cost-benefit of the program ad nauseum, but if our Space Program is a waste, why have Russia, Europe, Japan, and China all jumped in ?  They clearly see a long-term value to space exploration and all the technology required to achieve it.
Mike from Jefferson City, Missouri Hit it on the head. I couldn't add anything else or put it better.  Props to you.
I am a huge fan of the space program. The benefits we have garnered from it are beyond price. We also need to face the fact that we are running out of both room and resources here on Sol III. I agree that the shuttle should be retired and that it desparately needs a replacement. However, as long as politicians with no clue and less science are running the show, we will have accidents. As long as we have an urge to explore, we will have accidents. It's the price humankind must pay to advance.

Whatever happened to the "right stuff"? I grew up on Air Force bases, watching expermental craft take off from the flight lines, knowing every time I saw a new design, I could also be seeing a new disaster - that black smoke rising in the distance often meant a friend's dad had died. I also knew you could never ground a test pilot telling him "it could be dangerous." When they were testing the F-14 and F-15s out of Pensacola Naval Air Station and Eglin AFB, we watched as the pilots pushed those weird looking jets to their limits over the Gulf of Mexico ("hey, look, those jets have twin vertical stabilizers!") The SR-71 looked like it was doing Mach sitting on the tarmac. The F-16 flew rings around its competition. But someone had to try those birds out first. And some politician, somewhere, was always looking to put that money on his pet pork, at the risk of those pilots' lives.

And the pilots still had the guts to fly, because the risk was worth the price. It's still worth it - I sincerely hope my grandkids have the opportunity to live on another planet, before we completely deplete this one.
"When did science truly ever help mankind?"

I could go all day with this, but I'll be extremely breif and just say that if you want to go without antibiotics and sanitary sewers ('scientists' learned what germs were, after all), go right ahead...

"The Shuttles were necessary to get us this far but it is time to move on."

Correct, but 'move on' should mean a better (not necesasairily bigger) RLV, not moving back to one use capsules (the 4-5x reusable requirement of the Orion capsule seems to be slipping away) launched on expendables (yeah, I know its based on shuttle SRBs [boy *those* worked all the time, didn't they?] but they still need way too much re-work before re-flight)...

"The main flaw (well, "flaw" is a harsh word, how about "limitation") with the space shuttle is that it was limited to "missions to planet Earth" and was not designed to even go to lunar orbit let alone a solar orbit or anywhere else in the solar system."

That the shutle couldn't go to the Moion was also noted in the documentary. My response to both is:

"Right. So?"

The shuttle was already trying to be too many things to too many people. In a rational world, it (or something like it) would be used to *assemble* Lunar and or Mars ships in orbit.

Why, after all, are there so many different kinds of aircraft /ships /motor vehicles? No one expects a semi tractor-trailer to act as an off-road vehicle...

When Appolo 11 landed on the moon  we completed JFK's promise of landing on the moon before the end of the decade.  As an engineer i thought we were on our way to Mars or elsewhere.  I only later learned the politicians had no other goal and space exploration was discontinued with Nixon stopping the programs.  There were no further manned space programs.  The shuttle and space station are like going to the mall with no further imagination.  What has come out of the space station other than practicing orbital hookups and feeding people in space and monitoring longterm bone loss?  Space station was to be a way station on to other destinations.

The shuttle was partiarly do to excess testerone in pilots who wanted to land a plane.  What a waste of resources.   No one else has to deal the excess weight of wings and tires.

There has not been the payoff of new materials and other advances that occurred with Mercury to Appolo programs.  The thrills of space havelong gone and we no longer have the school improvements and increased numbers of engineers and scientists.  Dumbing down our students to what every student can do is not a goal to be proud of.

Sam
Ofcourse going to space is risky, but it's a risk and cost worth undertaking.  I'm miffed that the shuttle program is being shut down before a viable alternative is ready to fly.  We had better keep the shuttle flying until Orion is ready to go.

I'm really miffed that the Alpha Magenetic Spectrometer was knocked off the list.  The AMS is a really crucial piece of equipment ready to go that will help explain the beginnings of our universe.  It would be a terrible waste of money to let that completed equipment go to waste as well as the $1.5 billion it cost to make.

We need real science now more than ever!
Alan correectly alludes to the essential problem with the shuttle, the change in the safety culture between the lunar program where safety was paramount and cost was largely irrelevant, and the shuttle where the whole philosophy was turned upside down implementing as much as possible with COTS technology and let schedule and $ drive the program.

Anyone have any doubts, just watch Apollo 13, the system was so robust that all the crew and the system survived and returned to earth.  

Anyone having doubts about about the benefits of space exploration should understand what drove our miniaturization of the electronic that eventually led to control the early rockets which led to the development of the IC, etc.
A good history of the Space Shuttle and the design trade-offs in its development can be found here:

http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/shuttle.htm

http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4221/contents.htm

...And remember, it was a design that reflected what Congress was willing to *pay for,* as much as the best the technology of the day could deliver.

"Why not just skip all this and go back to the first NASA idea that was named Orion, use nuclear weapons to propel a truly huge ship into space.  The largest Orion design on the drawing board was capable of lifting 8 million tons.  Ok, sure, you have to set off some nuclear weapons within the earth's atmosphere to get it off the ground but given the right conditions it could totally be worth it."

The nuclear-pulse Orion wasn't really a NASA project.

Still...do you remember the hue and cry fro a lot of people, when we wanted to launch a probe (Cassini) which carried a few pounds of naturally decaying plutonium to power its electronics, much to far from the Sun for practical solar panels...and how they expected a launch accident to make all of Florida a radioactive wasteland? (Yeah, that's hype, but so were their claims.)

And you want to propel a ship with actual nuclear *detonations?*

Yes, nuclear pulse will work, but there is no chance, politically, that it will ever be used from Earth's surface. None.

What's that? You want to build a nuclear pulse ship in orbit and start from there, instead? Well, that brings us right back to the need for a good RLV to get from Earth's surface to low Earth orbit and back, on a regular, economical, reliable basis (for whatever purpose you have in mind), doesn't it?

Kevin, where does atmospheric drag figure into your proposal? There have been many ideas for using ground-based accelerators of one kind or another for spacecraft, but none based on Earth (the Moon would be quite another matter) propose getting the ship all the way up to orbital velocity by themselves.

Drag losses *will* happen, and you *will* need rockets of some kind operating along the way to overcome it.

Also these systems are constrained to launch in *one* direction, serving *one* orbital inclination. You can launch out of KSC in *any* direction that stays over the Atlantic (and remember, even that is only for safety and lower stage disposal reasons)

Scramjet enthusiasts also forget that it's increasingly difficult to scoop in, burn fuel in, and get net thrust out of an engine at higher and higher Mach numbers, and they must also deal with atmospheric drag (and the heating that comes with it) along th3e way.. I submit it's not worth it to do airbreathing much above Mach 5 for a space launch system (as opposed to something intended to operate only in the atmosphere). Rocket trajectories are generally such as to get out of the dense lower atmosphere as quickly as possiblee, where drag is greatest, and rocket efficency is lowest..

If we ever field a two-stage to orbit RLV, It would probably be best if seperation of the orbiter took place at the highest altitude possible, but still at *subsonic* speeds.

If we ever have *single* stage to orbit, a vertical takeoff, vertical lander is the best way to go, IMHO.


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