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Alan Boyle covers the physical sciences, anthropology, technological innovation and space science and exploration for MSNBC.com. He is a winner of the AAAS Science Journalism Award, the NASW Science-in-Society Award and other honors; a contributor to "A Field Guide for Science Writers"; and a member of the board of the Council for the Advancement of Science Writing.

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How much is that in Apollos?

Posted: Friday, October 03, 2008 3:56 PM by Alan Boyle


NASA
Moonwalker Buzz Aldrin poses for a picture taken by Neil Armstrong during 1969's
Apollo 11 mission. In current dollars, the Apollo program cost around $100 billion.

How much will $700 billion get you? Roughly speaking, the widely publicized cost of the financial bailout … er, rescue package … is equal to seven Apollo programs, or 70 state-of-the-art atom-smashers. The magnitude of the figures being thrown around is so much easier to understand when you use our currency conversion chart for mega-projects.

A goodly number of real-world cost comparisons have come out since the $700 billion figure was first put out there, a couple of weeks ago. For example, msnbc.com's First Read blog pointed out last week that $700 billion is just a bit more than the gross domestic product of Taiwan, or the total expense on the war on Iraq to date. If you take another tack, you could see it as three times the annual income of every household in Ohio.

Of course, no comparison is going to be completely accurate. On one hand, the initial price tag will almost certainly come to more than $700 billion, thanks to $110 billion in goodies that were added to the plan to sweeten the deal. On the other hand, the federal government could juggle the mortgage-related securities so adroitly that some of the money is made back. Such spin-offs could produce benefits to offset the bailout's effective cost.

Come to think of it, that's sort of how the space program works, too.

What we need is a currency scale that helps people visualize these multimillion/multibillion-dollar government programs, using gee-whiz images if possible. This would be handy for much more than the bailout: For example, when someone talks about an Apollo-scale program for energy independence, what does that actually mean?

Fortunately, folks who have been covering the space effort have been doing this ever since the days of the actual Apollo program. "One Apollo" turns out to be a relatively standard currency unit, the equivalent of $25 billion in 1970 dollars, or roughly $100 billion in today's dollars.

In fact, you could put together a whole scale of scientifically based currency units, based on the estimated cost of big projects, including the Large Hadron Collider and the international space station. In reality, these numbers are always squishy. Nevertheless, even order-of-magnitude estimates can be helpful.

Let's start with the smallest unit for big projects. Back in 2004, reporters covering SpaceShipOne's quest for the $10 million X Prize reflected on how much money billionaire Paul Allen was contributing to the project. It turns out that the reported figure - $25 million - crops up in another context. That's how much Allen contributed to the initial construction phase of the Allen Telescope Array, which is hunting for signals from alien civilizations.

In honor of those contributions, we can set the value of the allen at $25 million in 2004 dollars. Since then, the value has almost certainly gone up, to the extent that you could probably use an allen to buy a $30 million trip to the international space station. If you happen to have several allens sitting around, you could start your own space program (as Elon Musk did when he invested 4 allens to found SpaceX). And the scale just goes up from there, as detailed in this currency chart:

Currency unit...

Equals ...

In dollars ...

1 allen








Paul Allen's expense on the
SpaceShipOne project, or on
the Allen Telescope Array.
Also, the cost of a ticket
to the international space
station on a Russian craft, or
the Google Lunar X Prize purse.


$25 million
(ranging up
to $30 million)






1 rover




20 allens. Equal to the
per-rover cost for NASA's
Mars Exploration Rover mission.


$500 million
(ranging down
to $400 million)


1 shuttle






2 rovers. Roughly equal
to the cost of launching
a shuttle mission
in the
post-Columbia era.

 

$1 billion
(NASA has
cited figures ranging
from $450 million
to $2 billion)


1 LHC





10 shuttles. Equal to
the construction cost
of the Large Hadron Collider.



$10 billion
(some estimates
only count $6
billion in expenses)


1 Apollo








10 LHCs. Equal to
the cost of the Apollo
space program in current
dollars. Also roughly equal
to space station cost, or the
cost of returning to the moon.


 

$100 billion
(and rising)







1 budget


30 Apollos. Equal to
the White House's
federal budget proposal.
$3 trillion
(actually, $3.1
trillion
for FY 2009)


Does all this make you feel better about the $700 billion, or worse? Feel free to weigh in with your comments below.

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Comments

This is "The Great American Bank Robbery".

$892 billion to date.  That is what it is costing us now.  Where does it go?  We still do not know who is getting it or what exactly it is buying.
As long as they are smart with what they are doing and the Treasury Dept. makes some money off this investment I'm all for it.

Manhattan Project?

[ALAN ADDS: Strangely enough, I have the answer to that one: $20 billion in 1996 dollars:]

http://www.brookings.edu/projects/
archive/nucweapons/manhattan.aspx

Divvy it up to the people instead of the failing institutions!
I read it would be close to $250 thousand per person, 18+...there would be no depression, no foreclosures, and definitely an economic stimuli!

I LOVE THIS IDEA.  Only thought:  need to have the scales on the right be consistent.  1 of each unit on the left needs to equal 10 or 20 or 50 or 100 units on the right.  Unit doesn't matter -- just that they are the same as they move up.

[ALAN ADDS: Well, you can look at this two ways: One way is to say that we have pennies, nickels, dimes, quarters, half-dollars and dollars that don't always go up in equal increments. The other way is to add just one more unit that comes close to what you suggest. Let's call $100 million a "falcon," named in honor of the rocket SpaceX's Elon Musk developed with that initial investment. Then you have 1 falcon = 4 allens ... 1 shuttle = 10 falcons ... 1 LHC = 10 shuttles ... and 1 Apollo = 10 LHCs. Of course, a Falcon 1 launch (at $8 million) costs far less than a falcon. That would be 0.125 falcons (13 falconcents?) or 0.32 allens (32 allencents?). 

Because of the 'billions and billions' cliche, some have said a billion anything should be referred to as a 'Sagan.'

On the other hand, Sen. Everett Dirksen, who once commented; "A billion here, a bilion there, and sooner or later, you're talking about real money.' has led to a 'Dirksen' as 1 billion US dollars...
To figure out how inflation has affected big-project costs, you can plug numbers into this inflation calculator:

http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi

For example, if you try this with the Manhattan Project's cost ($20 billion in 1996 dollars), you'll find that it equals $26 billion in 2007 dollars. That's 26 shuttles or a roughly a quarter of an Apollo. This comes in handy when you're trying to figure out whether you support a "Manhattan Project for energy independence" or an "Apollo program for energy independence."
Unit mismatch error detected, Alan.

Top unit Bailout listed as billions, end of message ...Does all this make you feel better about the $700 million, or worse?

Have a nice weekend!

[ALAN ADDS: Sheesh! Got that fixed, Patrick, I can't tell you how many times I wanted to switch m's and b's in these figures. Thanks for setting me straight, and have a good weekend yourself!]
... And a little more detail. Assuming that the figures cited here are in 1970 dollars ...

http://www.historyshots.com/Space/backstory.cfm#cost

Cost of the Mercury program in 2007 dollars would be $2 billion, cost for Gemini would be $6.3 billion, and cost for Apollo would be $132 billion.
L. Beard, learn how to do math.

700,000,000,000 / 225,000,000 = $3,111

hardly worth getting excited over.   225 million number from census.gov based on 2006 population estimate of 298,398,484 with 24.6% of those being under 18.  225 million is low but within a million.  

actually think about what's behind those emails you've been reading.  
Playing with numbers makes it seem like everything from before was a bargain.
Why not just solve the entire crisis by dropping one zero from the end of every dollar amount mentioned...around the world...every bank...every national currency.
What's a zero?
Nobody would worry.
It's like buying a $900 mattress so you can 'save' $300 over the competition's offer...same, same, eh?
We are amazing creatures!
L. Beard, unfortunatly that "$250 thousand per person, 18+..." figure is not accurate.  The government early this year provided a 500 billion stimulus, basically writing a check split between every taxpayer.  In the end each taxpayer got between 300 and 600 dollars from it, although if you had children you could have recieved a bit more.  A 700 billion bonus, even if equaly split only between people over 18, would most likely be worth less then one months rent, not hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Here's one that may not make the figures any much more comprehensible but it gives a good visual: 700 billion is 7 times the number of stars in our galaxy!
At least the $100 billion spent on the Apollo resulted in something awe inspiring that brought hopes and dreams to everyone on the planet during the era and even up to today. I want to know how $700 billion to Wall St. is going to inspire me to reach for my dreams.
How many trips to Mars and back is that...???
1 allen = $25 million...
1 Alan = Priceless
Millions, Billions, whats it really mater its not REAL money (its just taxpayer money)...   Plus it doesn't get us any closer to setting up the a moon base! or the elevator to nowhere - errr I mean elevator to space! wonder how many Apollo's or budget's it would take to get us established on the moon?
L. Beard, La Mirada, CA wrote: " Divvy it up to the people instead of the failing institutions!
I read it would be close to $250 thousand per person, 18+...there would be no depression, no foreclosures, and definitely an economic stimuli!"

Do a little math.  Supposed the adult population of the US is only 200 million, then divide that number into 700 billion, and you end up with $3500 per person.  Whoever gave you the $250k number is a real idiot.  Unless, maybe, they think that 98.5% of the adults in the country are illegal aliens. Yeah, that's got to be it, lets send them all back to Mexico.  Then there will only be 2.8 million of us to fill all of the jobs in the US.  Boy, we wouldn't be worried about minimum wage laws then, would we.
Let's take a look at the two biggest companies in the world and see how that compares to the $700 billion investment in a bailout that should return some $ to the taxpayers and might even turn a profit:

Walmart (in billions)
$378 sales
$12 profit
$235 market capitalization
$64 stockholders' equiy

Exxon Mobil (in billions)
$372 sales
$40 profit
$404 market capitalization
$121 stockholders' equiy

Suddenly the bailout numbers don't look so large.  If this is an investment in distressed banks and financial companies, it is smaller than the market capitalization of just those two companies.  
Whoever thinks that the US Government is going to get any money back from this deal must also believe in Santa Claus and Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer.
I'd feel much better if Warren Buffet had oversight of the project.
I imagine that 7 apollos would get us more in return then one bailout bill.  

I would say the apollo program was worth at least 2 trillion in GDP today in products and technology leaps.
Let's not forget, Treasury has already loaned $400 billion to banks and $130 billion to money markets at 2.25% in the last week, so the price is now already over $1.3 trillion ... and rising by the minute.  So, divvy that up to households (forget individuals), reduce their mortgage rates to 2.25%, we'll be solvent overnight, and the arteries will be liquid.  Magic.
What if we (The USA) told the countries of the world that they had to pay us back for all the money we have loaned them. How much would that be. Even if we got half of it back it would be more then enough to pay off the national debit and have some left over.
In 2001, I had a good job with a $42,0000 salary.
The cost of housing increased so fast that I could not afford a house. I told my boss that I needed a 50% raise or I would have to move away. The boss didn't believe it, so I left. In 2006 I had a good job with a $72,000 salary. The cost of housing increased so fast that I could not afford a house. I told my boss that I needed a 100% raise or I would have to move away. The boss didn't believe it, so I left. Now, I hope my former bosses are watching the news because; $700,000,000,000 to bail out an industry, not because of bad mortgages but because of overpriced housing, I don't mind saying I told you so! These real estate investors are domestic enemies, traitors!
Actually more like $3000-$4000, L Beard, but still a lot of money. And this whole idea of "trickle down" is neocon [B.S.]; the money SHOULD be given to CONSUMERS who will SPEND it not HOARD it; who will pay mortgage bills, thus boosting the value of those garbage "securities" those a******s invented, and keep themselves in their houses. THAT would stimulate the economy a helluva alot more than giving it to those like the piece of trash I mention at the bottom of this!

Alan: I'll see your shuttle and raise you 1 Mars rover program . . . oh, that's just pocket change.   1 Sagan should be equal to the number of 1980's high school students who went into science because they watched COSMOS.

Anybody else see that greedy pig of a broker being interviewed on TV who said "we need the money, so give it to us!!" after the first giveaway bill failed? It's a good thing *I* wasn't a passer-by or I mighta gone right one side of that jerk and down the other. I have also heard that Wall Street institutions are already shifting money and debt around to 'position' themselves for the maximum take when the hundreds of billions get made available.   Wall Street needs to be put the clamps on - they shouldn't be able to sneeze without approval from 8 different agencies, and me.

I'd feel better if we used exponential notation for $700-billion, or $7.00x10(11).  I mean, 7 and 11 aren't that big, are they?  And they're lucky, too!
Bill, from Mill Creek, has spoken the ultimate truth!
         "The Great American Bank Robbery".
"While the sheep sleep the Coyotes are hunting" (DW)


 
When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another ...

Sounds familiar?

Here’s an idea:  Let’s separate ourselves from the District of Columbia.  Our former impotent and incompetent politicians, and government beauraucracy, will be blocked from entering the United States.  That will leave those morons only 70 or so square miles to mismanage.  

Any innocent resident of Washington, DC can apply to the United States for Political Asylum.  

All of the greedy Wall Street Bankers, Real Estate Developers and anyone else responsible for this mess, will be deported to DC.
Oh - one more thing, at this rate we will all be selling chicklets and White Elephantes at the border crossing into the US, si es possible, brush up on your Spanish people you will be working for Mexico very soon and happy to do so.
who ever wins the whitehouse will inherit a mess my company is bankrupt  2850 jobs  no one bailed whitehall out
How about converting it to Zimbabwe Dollars? It will be roughly 103 Trillion. What's a few more zeros?

Friday, October 3, 2008

700,000,000,000 US Dollar = 103,190,332,000,000 Zimbabwe Dollar
700,000,000,000 Zimbabwe Dollar (ZWD) = 4,748,506,866 US Dollar (USD)

Median price = 147.385 / 147.415 (bid/ask)
Minimum price = 144.420 / 144.450
Maximum price = 149.500 / 149.540

FXConverter - Currency Converter for 164 Currencies164 Currency Converter © 1997-2008 by OANDA.com

After the previous week's lesson in how not to do government -- Suppose we just do three things as a people:
1) learn how to do arithmetic -- such as dividing 1T$ / 200 M people == $5,000
2) learn how to read -- we might use the text in the US Constitution including the various and sundry amendments -- focusing on the enumerated powers that the Federal Gov't is given by "We the People"
3) Using our newly acquired or remediated skills -- We make our Representative Government return to what it is supposed to do and leave the rest of the money in our individual pockets -- we might start by voting this November for folks who believe in the above

Westy

PS: the first two things to go once we get back the power: Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac
This bailout was insane.  If I had to spend $700B, I wouldn't bail out the banks.

I read that the total Federal income tax receipts in 2006 were just over $1T.  $700B is close enough - how about we cancel federal income taxes for a year?

At $35k a pop, we could put solar panels on 20 million households.

Speaking of energy, couldn't we be well on our way to solving the global warming / transportation problem?

What would free healthcare cost?
I agree 100% with JC from Fairbanks.
You notice how fast our elected politicians were able to agree to a big spending plan but these same politicians can't come together to cut federal spending
Hey Denver, CO,

If they had done 700,000,000,000 / 140,000,000 = $5,000 where 140-million is the number of taxpayers.  They could have given taxpayers bank CDs for $5,000 that matured randomly in 3 to 7 years.  The banks could have greased the economic skids with those deposits.  The taxpayers would know in advance they would not get screwed and in fact would benefit.  All taxpayer balance sheets would have been improved.  And, the best part is that the financial dudes far-removed from the banks would lose their jobs as they should.  
So basically what you are saying is that the government is throwing away 700 billion dollars comparative to the 100 billion dollar Apollo mission that  DID NOT happen.
I am really starting to get the picture on how government works. Tell the people of the U.S. that you are doing good with the money but instead you only give us great pictures and some great stories from astronauts that were supposedly there.  Next time use a different analogy!!
" I'd feel much better if Warren Buffet had oversight of the project."

Do the Math George.  $700B = 5,054,152
BRK-A [Berkshire Hathaway's Stock (BRK-A) value of 138,500.00 per share (has never split)]

So, we can say that $700B is 5 Million BRK's (or my fav: $5M Buffets)
The size of this bailout is proof that some of our currency is now obsolete and needs to be abandoned. Specifically, the fraction of a dollar currency needs to be eliminated.

We used to have the mil that was equavilent to 1/1,000 of a dollar (a tenth of a cent).  The Coinage Act (1792) describes milles and other subdivisions of the dollar.  The mil currency has been abandoned long ago.  Now it is time for the penny and nickel to go.

It is no longer necessary nor useful to subdivide the dollar into one-hundredths.  Only small candies and cheap trinkets can now be bought for less than a dollar.  Add a couple of small bites to the package and it will also cost at least a dollar each.

Why manufacture nickels or pennys?  The Mint estimated it costs 1.23 cents per penny and 5.73 cents per nickel in fiscal year 2006 (USA Today) because of the skyrocketing metals prices.  The cost to melt and separate the metals in the pennys and nickels is the only reason that this is not done by everyone for a profit!  The mint is the only federal agency that makes a profit. This is yet another "hidden tax."  The profit capability from manufacturing dimes and quarters is present because it still costs less for the mint to manufacture dimes and quarters than the face value of these coins.

In 2005 over $760 billion of US cash was in circulation.  As of December 2006, the euro cash in circulation was more than $991 billion.

Today, our currency is printed in bills in denominations of $1, $2, $5, $10, $20, $50, and $100. At one time our currency included five larger denominations: $500, $1,000, and $5,000 interest bearing notes in 1861, and $10,000 gold certificates in 1865 and the $100,000 Gold certificate from 1934.

High-denomination bills were last printed in 1945 and officially discontinued on July 14, 1969. The $5,000 and $10,000 effectively disappeared well before then: there are only about 200 $5,000 and 300 $10,000 bills known, of all series since 1861. (www.nationmaster.com)

With our governmnets (state and federal) and companies like WalMart and ExxonMobile now talking in terms of $700b, and single digit Trillions (tens and hundreds of trillions soon to come), we now need to return to the larger denominations of US currency and abandon the pennies and nickels.  

A $500 bill may buy two nights hotel lodging in Bethesda, MD tonight.  It is not uncommon anymore for a dinner for two to cost more than $100.  Having larger denominations of US currency will be much easier on the wallet thickness and reduce the need for credit or debit cards. I have always enjoyed laying out cash for my purchases.  I get a certain amount of pride and satisfaction knowing that I have worked hard to earn the "cold hard cash" I'm spending.  That prid simply isn't there when my plastic is "swiped."

Everything moves up in price ever single year (Inflation).  The lower end of our currency is now obsolete and needs to be abandoned, as evidenced by the shear size of the bailout.  
Some people are always complaining that the NASA budget would be better spent on social engineering projects.  How much better if this money were spent on NASA!
From a European perspective, America has been bankrupt for decades but it looks like now it's all over and the very fat americain lady is singing! What a shame because the world needed america when we have opposite us the likes or Russia & China. Now America will end up in the same ranks of Brazil (the debt being paid back). Europe goes it alone to bring liberty, freedom, democracy ...bla bla bla
I got 20 Euros in my pocket to bail out America :)
This wall st. thing reminds me of my neighbors kids(yes their are republicans). They pillage and plunder any area they enter and when they do not get their way they scream or kick, hold their breath or pout until they get what they want. Sound familiar..........?
What's worse than the $810 billion bailout is the waste of $700 billion and rising in Iraq.  What we could have had without that useless war?  It's a pity that the shuttle is being retired too soon, 5 years before Orion comes on line.  I'd like to see money invested into keeping the shuttle going until Orion is finished and ready to launch.

What a pity that we spent $2 billion on our supercollider and then cut and ran from it.  We don't even have a prototype fusion generator project like Britain or France.

My biggest regret is that we could have invested in a nationwide mag-lev train system for the money we wasted in Iraq.  We are getting to vote on a bullet trian system here in California next month and that's kind fo exciting.  It's touted as being over 200 mph so I know we're going after old bullet train tech.  A pity we aren't going with the cutting edge mag-lev train system that goes over 300 mph.  A nationwide mag-lev train system is what our country should be going for, but we're wasting too much money in Iraq.

We need to stop wasting so much money in Iraq and get with investing in cutting edge technology before we fall behind many other countries.

It's a shame we waste so much money on research into how to kill people faster and so little on real cutting edge science that will help propel us into the 21st Century.  We research warbots while the Japanese research robots that help people.  Okay, okay they also are researching fembots, but as my generation used to say "Make Love, Not War"!
On a somewhat related topic...in 1984/5 one could purchase a ticket to space from Society Expeditions Project Space Voyage, for the sum total of $52,000...only $5000 down.
Today, Branson's proposed ticket keeps varying...but, it seems to be around $250K.
That's only 5 times the 25 year ago amount...a bargain, eh?
Of course Project Space Voyage kept the deposits (5000 of 'em) and nobody went anywhewre...starting to sound just like Branson...don'tcha think?
similar article from Jay Garmon over here:
http://writtenweird.blogspot.com/2008/09/what-could-700-billion-government.html

Real good read, similar conclusions - check it out!
This will give you a much better concept of how much money we're talking about:

How much money are we talking about?

US taxpayers have paid $85 billion to purchase AIG.  The Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac bailouts will run taxpayers at least $200 billion.  Now Congress is allowing the Secretary of the Treasury (with little to no oversight, naturally) to transfer $700 billion from the taxpayers to buy “toxic debt” (bad mortgage bonds that financial institutions have on their books that absolutely nobody else wants to buy) from the very companies that precipitated this financial
disaster.

So, the bailouts thus far will cost the taxpayer at least $985 billion. That’s $985,000,000,000.00!  A scary number when written out, isn’t it?  Scarier still is that many are predicting that this is just the beginning of the bailouts.

Here are a few analogies to give you an idea of how much money that really is:

1.  One $100 bill weighs only 3/100ths of an ounce, but $985 billion worth of $100 bills would weight eighteen million, five hundred thousand pounds.  The Statue of Liberty weighs four hundred and fifty thousand pounds.  If you were to place on one side of a huge balance scale the weight of the money we have spent and are going to spend to bail out reckless Wall Street investors, it would take forty Statues of Liberty to balance it.

2.  A $100 bill is only 4/1000ths of an inch thick, but stacked one atop the other, that $985 billion worth of $100 bills would tower 621 miles into space.

3.  Spending $1 per second ($3,600 per hour, $86,400 per day, $31,536,000 per year), it would take you 31,234 years to spend that $985 billion.

4.  $985 billion is greater than the entire annual gross domestic product (GDP) of Australia in 2007.   The GDP is the cost of all goods and services produced within a country in a year down to and including the cost to produce, purchase and consume every hamburger fried and eaten, every stick of gum made and chewed, every toilet cleaned by a hotel maid.  Everything.

Finally, in his “Meet the Press” interview on September 21, 2008, the Secretary of the Treasury Henry Paulson explained what led up to the crisis, “We'd had [financial market] excesses building up for some time in this country.  They played out first in terms of bad lending practices, irresponsible borrowing, irresponsible lending; then moved a chain reaction into the financial institutions, illiquid assets; that then has played out into the broader economy.”  Shouldn’t the very next question from his interviewer have been, “So, if these excesses have as
you say been building up for some time, why wasn’t something done _some time ago_ to prevent this crisis?”

Unfortunately, that question wasn’t asked.
Getting rid of pennie and nickles is just dumb. sales taxes would soon be 20 or 30 cents on the dollar...think people...Unless you love paying more taxes.
Give them a break. They're doing the best they can, folks.


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