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Doomsday lawsuit dismissed

Posted: Friday, September 26, 2008 11:56 PM by Alan Boyle


CERN
A hardhat worker is dwarfed by the Large Hadron Collider's ATLAS detector
during construction. Click on the image for a larger version.

A federal judge in Hawaii today dismissed a lawsuit raising fears about Europe's Large Hadron Collider, on the grounds that she had no jurisdiction over the multibillion-dollar project.

In a 26-page ruling, District Judge Helen Gillmor said that the world's largest particle-smasher was not subject to U.S. environmental regulations because the federal government didn't contribute enough money or play enough of a role in controlling the experiment.

After years of construction, the LHC was started up at low energy on Sept. 10, sending beams of protons around a 17-mile-round (27-kilometer-round) ring of tunnels beneath the French-Swiss border. On the day after the startup, however, the machine suffered a magnet malfunction, and more serious problems cropped up a week later.

This week, Europe's CERN particle-physics organization announced that the LHC would be shut down until next spring, due to the time needed for repairs as well as the experiment's previously planned winter break.

The LHC, which is arguably the world's biggest and most expensive science experiment, is expected to extend the frontiers of physics over the next decade. It could help scientists solve puzzles about the origins of the universe, the nature of mass and dark matter and the potential existence of extra unseen dimensions.

But the plaintiffs in the federal civil case - retired nuclear safety officer Walter Wagner and Spanish science writer Luis Sancho - voiced fears that the machine could create black holes or bits of exotic matter capable of destroying the earth. Experts have ruled out such scenarios in a series of safety reports. Nevertheless, the plaintiffs filed suit in March, seeking a suspension of operations at the collider until still more safety reviews could be conducted.

Among the defendants were the Europe's CERN particle-physics organization as well as the U.S. Energy Department and the National Science Foundation. Federal attorneys argued that the court had no jurisdiction over the LHC - and ultimately, Gillmor agreed.

She did not directly address the scientific issues raised by the plaintiffs, but said that federal court was the wrong place to consider the legal matter.

Gillmor noted that the federal government's $531 million contribution to the LHC's construction budget was less than 10 percent of the total cost, which has been estimated at between $5.8 billion and $10 billion. She also noted that the federal government did not play a part in managing operations at the collider. For those reasons, the U.S. role in the project did not constitute a "major federal action" under the terms of the National Environmental Policy Act, or NEPA, she said.

The judge said that Wagner and Sancho didn't provide any evidence sufficient to show that the court had the power to rule. "Plaintiffs appear to believe they invoked federal jurisdiction by simply filing suit in a federal court," she wrote. "They have not met their burden of establishing that jurisdiction exists."

Because of that lack of jurisdiction, Gillmor said she would not address the other claims and counterclaims contained in the hundreds of pages of documents filed over the past six months.

"It is clear that plaintiffs' action reflects disagreement among scientists about the possible ramifications of the operation of the Large Hadron Collider," she wrote. "This extremely complex debate is of concern to more than just the physicists. The United States Congress provided more than $500 million toward the construction of the Large Hadron Collider. But Congress did not enact NEPA for the purpose of allowing this debate to proceed in federal court."

Gillmor's dismissal of the federal civil lawsuit does not affect a separate, though similar, legal action currently under consideration by the European Court of Human Rights.

Do you want to read the full decision? Click here to download the PDF file. This report was last updated at 2:05 a.m. ET Sept. 27.

Past chapters in the doomsday saga:

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Comments

Could this be a message from God not to intervene of what he did?

There will be a lot of collateral damage(death in thousands)during the last phase of this experiment.
So far, people predicting the end of the world have a perfect record:  they've been wrong 100 percent of the time.
Could this whole thing be too perfectly timed for all those 2012'ish end-of-the-world predictions?  I hate to think we are now witnessing the final crawl to our own destruction in these little pg. six bylines.  When this is page one it will be too late.  Meanwhile, Iran is on page one for their more immediate saber-rattling and our attention is riveted by their overly expressive president.  Not that there isn't real menace in his words, I would just hate for it to turn out that our attention on him was ironic as we built our own doomsday lab in the mountains of Europe.
The Photo of the ATLAS detector looks a bit like the inside of a Borg cube.
Cosmic rays with billions of times more energy hit the Earth every minute.  And we are still here after billions of years of that.  That is why scientists are not worried.
Cosmic rays, with billions of times more energy than the LHC can generate, strike the Earth every minute.  And we are still here after billions of years of that bombardment.  This is why scientists know they are not going to destroy the Earth.
I don't think we need to worry about it, it's just an experiment. if we do not stop destroying the environment  the doomsday will come
LOL people are always scared of stuff they know nothing about GOD has nothing to do with this machine its all people so sit back and wait for whatever but if you wanna be all GOD GOD GOD the bible code says that an asteroid will do it so QUIT TRIPPING about this machine its just an experiment and i hope they get what they are after out of it or its billions of dollars wasted
The scientist need to realize that the rays that the earth is hit by daily are from outside the atmosphere. This planet isn't capable of handling such an internal combustion with no ramifications.Are we really willing to risk all life as we know it to discover a cause to an event that happened so many years ago and virtually will have no positive effect on today's world except the hindsight knowledge of "I wish I wouldn't of flipped that switch"? I appreciate science, however I have no interest in putting something on this planet simply because we can't find the means to go find it in space. Why would someone want to bring a blackhole to earth if we can see the destruction they create in space? Call me crazy but I enjoy my family more than the idea of learning knowledge that will prove useless to 99.997% of the earth's population. It's obvious that becoming a scientist doesn't require you to have common sense or regard for life.
I think if God took personal interest in stopping the LHC he could do a lot better than melting some wires.  They always expected some startup problems with the most complex experement on Earth.  This is to be expected, but you can bet someone still broke their hand punching a wall when it happened.
"There will be a lot of collateral damage(death in thousands)during the last phase of this experiment."

You know this how?  
"Hey... you can't sail a ship over the horizon, you'll fall off the edge of the world!"  

Apparently, the same fear still exists today.  Fear can only be overcome by knowledge, not lawsuits.  
I guess that we have no other choice but to wait and see what happens.  At least it is not aimed at killing.  It just may teach us something and it may show that "Creationism" and "Evolution" have a lot in common.  God could have "Created" everything and then let it evolve into what we know and understand today.  
Hello Don,

The LHC will create conditions not created by nature on Earth.

In the LHC protons collide head on, like a head on car crash, some resulting particles will travel too slowly to escape Earth's gravity.

When a cosmic ray strikes Earth's atmosphere results all have extremely high speed. If any stable neutral micro black holes were created by Nature they would all travel through Earth and into space.

CERN's LHC Safety Assessment Group acknowledged this in a 16 March 2008 email before they modified their theories a bit.[1]

"While it is true that a BH produced by cosmic rays would not be stopped by the Earth, there are many other "things" in the universe that could trap such CR-produced BH's, thus leading to visible consequences."[1] (that arguments is also refuted)

[1] http://www.lhcconcerns.com/LHCConcerns/
Forums/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2&st=0
&sk=t&sd=a&start=10
LHC Safety Assessment Group, 16 Mar 2008 2008
Well Im no phycisist or a doomsday guy.  I just read what they say.  What they are trying to do does not happen everyday.  And some have even admitted that "unstable" blackholes could in theory be created but would not last.  Let us not forget these guys brought us the nuclear bomb.  Personally I'm betting they do make a major breakthrough and find out that those religious "nuts" were right all along; i.e. everything that has been or will be is happening right now and time is just a human way of seeing things.  December 2012?  Anyone taking bets?      

So with the LHC we are able to in some sense re-create the conditions that existed in the universe when it was just a fraction of a second old - the sort of thing that the optical telescopes and just can’t see.  So, most powerful microscope …  most powerful telescope.

Does not equal

Cosmic rays, with billions of times more energy than the LHC can generate, strike the Earth every minute.  And we are still here after billions of years of that bombardment.  This is why scientists know they are not going to destroy the Earth




To repeat what the last two posts said, the interactions in the LHC are neither exceptional or unusual. Until the tinfoil had crowd can tell us what the LHC does that does not happen countless times every day,Im not worried.
"extend the frontier of physics...help scientists solve puzzles over the origin of the universe, the nature of matter, and dark matter and the potential existence of unseen dimensions" Our quality of life won't change one bit! and we may destroy the world. THIS IS A MASTERS DEGREE IN STUPIDITY!!
Since we already have the Fermi Lab Tevatron working we already have scientific proof that there will be no black holes mysteriously conjured to swallow the earth.  A good thing that the judge used his intellect to make a wise decision.  So sad that the religious nutcases post some really clueless comments which do not belong here in a scientific forum for intelligent people.
Damn, it got thrown out. Now were not going to have any exciting LHC reportings until they start it back up. Alan, you are going to have to think of something good to fill the gap. Maybe protesters will start to circle the LHC..
They shouldn't even be messing with this kind of stuff! Seriously! I know there are many questions in our minds about the universe and stuff, but its not worth putting the earth on the line to find those answers. Its idiotic. I don't trust scientists at all, and I hope that something happens to stop all this. I hate that people can't make a big stand to do things, they just sit back and watch our doomsday coming from curious, stupid scientists.
Message from god this message from god that. stop saying what you think gods message is....  
If we didnt do experiments, you would still be hunting for food. It takes allot of power and energy to create a sutainable black hole. Try a star imploding on itself. Not a machine built by us in 2008. It is not possible.The people making a big deal about this exeperiments are the same people who think that dinasours are nothing but an imagination. Fanatics who interpret the bible in there own way and try to make everyone else follow their lifestyle. Its the same notion if I were to come running out of my house in the 12th century yelling "the earth is round" "the earth is round". I would have been branded as a heretic and accused of seaking against god and burned at the stake.
There's a fundamental difference:  that process isn't happening in a vacuum.
So what your saying is that the scientist' at Cern are recreating the physics and laws that protect our planet within our atmostphere that have been in existance for thousands if not millions of years within a lab underground that was built 15 years ago when the technology didn't even exist to build the actual machine itself. Seems pretty pompous to me...
They are hitting the earth from outside the stratosphere and against our magnetic field.
Not from inside.
If this does bring doomsday, I think that it's been long overdue because of the severe moral decline and outright evil people have been doing to one another.  I hope they DO continue with the experiment.
 I am more worried that we have idiots with PHD's making important decisions. I can hardly believe anyone with such education would be involved in this legal action. I guess a phd isn't what is used to be and any half wit can atain one. Thats what I deduce from this.
 Its reasonable to argue we are hit with far more powerfull things everyday and yet here we are. I am embarrassed for these idiots.
This expirement may determine the tele-portation of both inorganic and organic matter. It is a look also in to time. They may be able to warp the process to actually see time. If we are going to go very far into space travel. We will have to find a way to travel at speeds much greater then the speed of light.
Robert G. Deardorff, Lebanon, Indiana
Nothing is going to happen, unless u count expanding our understanding of physics as something which apparently most people dont.....
Eric,
 This is hardly a "scientific forum." It's hosted by MSNBC and their job is to report news. And secondly, just because someone has faith does not mean that they are unintelligent. Quit acting like people can't post and believe what they want in a forum discussing current events.
If there is a God where does it say we aren't supposed to learn about the things it created and how they work? Perhaps since we were created in the image of a creator we are also supposed to create.
As much as I'm glad that the lawsuit was dismissed, I was kind of hoping that it would go through the whole process before it was dismissed. Dismissal because of a "technicality" (is jurisdiction a technicality?) will do nothing to quiet the doomsayers. Maybe the European courts can provide a measure of solace to those who are needlessly scared, but probably not. I guess we'll have to wait another half year until they can see for themselves that the LHC is harmless and will expand human knowledge, which is always a good thing even if the payoff isn't immediate.
Let the scientist have thier experiment for crying out loud! We'd didn't come as far as we have if we did not conduct experiments. Look at the last 100+ years, look how far we have gotten in that time span; we got here through experimenting and not listening to you pesstimistic morons! I'm no physics professional and I could care less, but I beleive that science and technology is the future, not God! All I hear is god that, god this, bah!! A figment of your imagination for the beleivers. If it was to destroy us, fine, again- I could care less. Better dying in the name of science than war. At least we wouldnt push the red button on ourselves! Fools...
Thanks to Dan, the interns, Scott, Eric, et al. for injecting some reason into this. Some scary folks post on these things.
umm... if it were so easy that idiots could get PHd's, everyone who's posting would have one ... or is that kind of logic and rational thinking over your head, Joe?
I find some of the things being said in here to be sad, just plain sad. "Stupid scientists"? "Idiots with PhDs"? Seriously?

I doubt that anyone who has posted in this forum has even a Bachelor's degree in theoretical physics, much less a PhD.

The world isn't flat, the Earth isn't at the center of the solar system, atomic bombs don't ignite the atmosphere. The LHC is not going to destroy the Earth.
Even if it does, I'd be greatful to be alive for such an event.
"extend the frontier of physics...help scientists solve puzzles over the origin of the universe, the nature of matter, and dark matter and the potential existence of unseen dimensions" Our quality of life won't change one bit! and we may destroy the world. THIS IS A MASTERS DEGREE IN STUPIDITY!!
Scott Moroz (Sent Saturday, September 27, 2008 10:29 AM)"

I daresay that this sort of outlook is rather near-sighted, based on ignorance.  To simply state nothing good will come of an attempt to gain understanding of a vital phenomenon, when historically many of our now common technologies and improvements in our comprehension have been the byproducts of other experiments.  Even if the LHC's experiments do not produce the originally intended results, no one can even begin to predict the possible benefits derived from its failure.  And if the experiments succede in providing the information they were designed to capture, who are you to judge the extent of their benefit when the people who have devoted their lives to studying and developing the related sciences can't even postulate what they might find aside from a relatively small number of near-given facts.
Scientists are examining the effect of destruction, not creation. Check out Keylontic Science: the science of Higher Mathmatics (Sacred Physics), 12 Strand Multidimensional DNA and Higher Consciousness.
www.amentiproject.net The information had been stored on CDT Plates and is now being translated by a highly evolved person. It is knowledge of the Universe's beginnings and our place in the Universe. We live in One 15-Dimensional Time Matrix with 5 Harmonic Universes.
So, you don't worry about global warming (leading to possible slow agonizing death for billions due to food shortages and lack of potable water), but you worry about some theoretical black hole that could *possibly* wipe everything out in an instant...  Apparently the same people who voted Bush into office a second time
So we are running out of  FOOD FUEL Clean air 'water
land resources population growth global warming 'possible big earthquake or asteroid from space terroist behind everydoor  let's hope we get sucked into a blackhole
It seems logical to me that a federal judge refuses to intervene since this project is in Switzerland and a US federal judge was asked to intervene.  I have one question to the judge, "Why use 26 pages, when it is not even in this country?
"Its idiotic. I don't trust scientists at all.."

So...what *do* you trust, Mark? It's because of those untrustworthy scientists that we even know black holes of any kind can exist to begin with.

It's high time this frivolous lawsuit brought by that know-nothing NON-PHYSICIST Walter Wagner was dismissed as the joke it was. For those of you who don't know, Wagner is a biology major who is a physics dilettante. A so-called "nuclear safety officer" does not a physicist make. Wagner's a complete fraud [...]
Jason said: "Dismissal because of a "technicality" (is jurisdiction a technicality?) will do nothing to quiet the doomsayers."

First of all, jurisdiction is not some fuzzy legal technicality - it is a rock-solid argument against allowing this lawsuit to proceed. Second of all, Wagner undoubtedly knew this, and knew he didn't have a chance with this lawsuit. This tells me he's just a crackpot and publicity-seeker.

Let's face it - although conspiracy theorists and "end-of-the-world" types have never, ever been right in the entire history of mankind, it's obvious that they will never stop their loony babbling, no matter how solid the grounds for dismissal. That's because these people are usually either the aforementioned publicity hounds like Wagner, or mentally unbalanced, or both.
For the scientists and engineers coducting this experiement, for them, I do not believe that they are in it for the "science vs. religion" part. We were made to answer some damn questions of our exsistence and everything else in this universe. Nothing in this world ever said that science has ever "slowed down" the progression of our knowledge and with that, technology. Experiments are done to get things right, 'cause now they variafiable evidence that something is true, or in some cases, false. I am not that naive that some of people at the LHC are not trying to quite the religious nasayers, but there are many good people scientist that are humbly trying to figure out what really goes on in the universe.
Good move by the judge.  What a bunch of boneheads for bringing this suit in the state of Hawaii.  They should have filed it in Europe.  

Hopefully, if they do file in Europe, it will be shot down.  I am kinda looking forward to having a few black holes that could suck up some other black holes like Congress or the White House...
You know what? IMO, they DID the experiment. Then something went bad OR either really well, they don't want to reveal the results, so they mad3e up something to tell the press 'til the stir calms down. Then they will seek commercial profit with their findings,AND LAST, they'll reveal partly to the media.
I'm not a conspiracy-paranoic geek just like that, they made me that.
Hey Chad --Perhaps you don't have a bachelor's degree. I'll bet quite a few posting here do. I have a Masters. all sorts of people read these things and all sorts post on them.
Why are we persuing things like this? Why can't we just put that money to a better cause? Like I saw in one of the previous posts, i doubt 99.997% of the world's population would even put these principles into action. It doesn't seem to be helping anyone. All the LHC is doing so far is freaking people out and making them angry!
Paul Moscow,
Please explain your "fundemental difference" arguement.  This will cause you to actually think about it.  That process, thinking, should clear things right up.

ROb,
Do you think the direction matters?

Joe,
About the idiots with PhDs.  You probably can't even come up with the argument without the education.  It wasn't worked through to any logical end, but most people couldn't have even started this foolishness.

While the Hawaii case has been dismissed on really the technicality of jurisdictional grounds, I believe it is a major victory in the battle of ideas, and hopefully will increase the chance of success of the European case.

Note the following excerpts from an initial Hawaii press report (www.starbulletin.com > News):

“Gillmor did not address whether the collider poses a danger to the Earth. She said there is a disagreement among scientists about the possible ramifications of the collider.”

In this statement Gillmor elevated the scientists questioning CERN to the same standing   of those defending CERN - Nobel prizes on the CERN side notwithstanding. This is, to me, a very important development.

“ "This extremely complex debate is of concern to more than just physicists," Gillmor said.”
This judicial statement gives great authority to the point of how CERN with its studies done in the club - the “26 physicists” and signed off by CERN Council, which cannot avoid the appearance of  bias because of  its earlier decisions to fund the LHC - can be open to the appearance  to have arranged the safety assessment to give it answers convenient to it.
The judicial statement should help the European Court case which asks for a proper safety conference with a “plurality’ of expertise – including arms-length expertise -  not just ever more physicists or participants like CERN Council who can appear  biased.

“...she said the proper venue for the debate over U.S. support for the program is in Congress…”

This again is saying that a proper decision-making process involving public representatives should exist.

I am sure many thoughtful people worldwide will clearly see that the Hawaii case achieved important steps toward better risk governance of the LHC and hence for the safety of civilisation and the planet.


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