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Quantum fluctuations in space, science, exploration and other cosmic fields... served up regularly by MSNBC.com science editor Alan Boyle since 2002.

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Planet debate gets greater

Posted: Friday, September 19, 2008 7:12 PM by Alan Boyle


A. Feild / STScI / NASA / ESA
An artist's conception shows the dwarf planet Haumea
and its two moons, Hi'iaka and Namaka.

So just how many planets are there in our solar system anyway? Eight? Nine? Thirteen? Or thousands? Far from settling the question, the "Great Planet Debate" has revealed just how complex and interesting the question is.

The planethood question got more interesting this week with the naming of yet another dwarf planet, Haumea. It's traditional to name planets after mythological deities - and Haumea, the Hawaiian goddess of childbirth and fertility, follows that formula.

The football-shaped world was found by Caltech astronomer Michael Brown just after Christmas 2004 (which prompted its initial, unofficial nickname: "Santa"). Haumea's discovery was shrouded in a scientific controversy that Brown recaps in his Weblog. At the time, controversy surrounded its planetary status as well, because it added to a growing class of objects in the same general class as Pluto. Astronomers surmised that hundreds of Pluto-scale objects may lurk on the icy rim of the solar system's disk, known as the Kuiper Belt.

The controversy came to a head in 2005 when Brown's team found the object now known as Eris - a world like Pluto, only bigger and farther out. All this led the International Astronomical Union to agonize over where to draw the line on planethood. In 2006, the IAU came up with a definition aimed at putting the solar system's eight biggest planets in one class, and Pluto in a different class with Eris and other dwarf planets or "plutoids."

The Great Planet Debate has been simmering ever since. In August, astronomers held a teach-in on the subject at Johns Hopkins University's Applied Physics Laboratory, which is the base of operations for NASA's New Horizons mission to Pluto. One of the purposes of the meeting was to see how teachers were handling the planethood question.

Scientist (and parent) sees 'teaching moment'
The education angle literally hit home for planetary scientist Alan Stern - and not just because he's the principal scientific investigator for New Horizons.

"My own son was told by a teacher that an answer was wrong on a test about Pluto," Stern told me last week. According to the test, the "right" answer for the number of planets in the solar system was eight - but Stern said that August's installment of the Great Planet Debate proved that the question was still up for grabs, even among educators.

"It was clear at the end of the two and a half days that there was no consensus," he said. "We're in transition. I think that's a teaching moment."

Stern has long argued that the IAU's definition of planethood provided more confusion than clarification. "There's a lot of unhappiness with the IAU's solution," he said. "I didn't hear anybody say, 'Oh, I think it's the cat's meow.'"

He maintains that it's wrong to think about the solar system as if there were a sharp division between eight planets and everything else. Even dwarf planets are still planets - and in Stern's mind, they may be more representative of the planetary spectrum than the eight biggies.

"It's the most populous class of planets in the solar system," Stern said. "Pluto's no longer the misfit."

There's something about Haumea
The fact that the IAU is giving names to dwarf planets - Pluto, Eris, Ceres, Makemake and now Haumea - shouldn't make a difference in the debate, Stern said. In fact, it totally makes sense. "From our perspective, these are planets. They deserve names," he said.

Stern has often compared the definition of planets with the definition of rivers: Sure, there might be six great rivers in the world ... or are there 14? In any case, that doesn't mean you have to set the Maquoketa River or thousands of other streams apart as "dwarf rivers." Every river, great or small, has its own special appeal - and it's the same with planets.

In fact, Haumea may be one of the most endearing little planets out there: Caltech's Brown has said it's his "favorite object in the solar system," in part because of its fast, end-over-end spin, the elongated shape it has as a result, and also because of its tightly orbiting satellites (which have been named Hi'iaka and Namaka, after two of the goddess Haumea's children). Brown said additional bits of ice and rock were apparently struck off Haumea in a cosmic collision long ago and are now circling the sun in their own orbits.

New Horizons gets a transplant ... and Twitter!
Oodles of such oddities may well come to light when the New Horizons spacecraft makes its way through the Kuiper Belt, starting in seven years. Last week, the probe underwent a successful "brain transplant" that upgraded the onboard software. It's now more than a billion miles from Earth, flying toward Pluto at a rate of about a million miles a day.

You can keep up with the mission's progress via Twitter or Facebook. (In the wake of Phoenix Mars Lander's Twitter success, it seems as if every space mission nowadays is getting into social networking.)

New Horizons' team will be checking out the spacecraft's instruments over the next couple of months, and then put the probe back to sleep for another months-long nap. The first "dress rehearsal" for the Pluto flyby will be conducted next year, but there's still a long way to go before showtime in 2015.

Will the planethood debate be settled by that time? Stern won't be surprised if it isn't. After all, it took decades for scientists to settle the controversy over continental drift - and some are still going back and forth over the implications of climate change and evolutionary biology.

"This is not atypical," Stern said. "It's just one of the most visible topics on the table right now."

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It's amazing to me that anyone cares one way or the other!
"All Science is either Physics or stamp collecting."
- Ernest Rutherford

This debate appears to be in the realm of the latter.
It seems to me that we're all dancing around the real issue here, which would appear to be fear (seemingly verging on absolute terror for some) over having to have kids memorize more than 9 names.

First off, this is nonsense, since even my 3-year-old daughter can tell you the names of the 9 traditional planets, plus Ceres, Eris, Sedna, and Quaior, and the Galilean Moons of Jupiter.  Secondly, it misses the point entirely.  Kids should be learning science, not rote memorization just to pass some test.  They should be learning ABOUT planets- their types, formations, compositions, and histories, not simply their names and orbits.

If we were to apply the logic of many involved in this debate, we shouldn't teach kids about asteroids at all, since there are thousands of them, far too many to memorize.  There are an awful lot of names for animals too, perhaps we should discard them with the bathwater as well?

Unfortunately, education will likely always trail significantly behind our current state of knowledge.  Heck, when I was first taught the planets back in 2nd or 3rd grade in 1980 or so, my teacher was using a book published in the 1940's!  I can also remember being quite disappointed over how little time we spent on the lesson, and how little was said about Uranus, Neptune, or Pluto.  I wanted to learn more, indeed, already knew more than was being said.

So how many planets are there in the Solar system?  Depends on your definition, but the important thing is not how many are out there, but rather that what KIND of things out there gets taught- Rocky Bodies, Icy Bodies, Gas Giants, Rings, Moons, Asteroids, Comets, Kuiper Belt Objects, etc.

Obviously, I've opted to include the Dwarf Planets in my discussion of planets with my daughter, even to the point of including objects the IAU has yet to formally classify as Dwarf Planets, such as Sedna and Quaior.  I resisted Varuna because I couldn't find any real listing of size at the time, but it looks like I should introduce Makemake and Haumea now.
Really, the only thing that matters is that there is ONE class M planet in this system.
I just don't understand all this fuss about "what constitutes a planet" and what doesn't.  Jiminy poke, people!  A solid definition shouldn't be THAT hard to cook up.  I for one favor a definition where a "planet" is a body that

(A) Has a star as the center of its orbit;
(B) Has sufficient mass to gravitationally assume
   the shape of a spheroid having an oblateness not
   in excess of (an agreed-upon value).

Now, I grant you: that last bit in parentheses will be a bone of contention amongst a good many astronomers, but by settling on a sufficiently small oblateness, you get an essentially (and easily recognizable) oblately spheroidal body, effectively excluding potato-shaped monstrosities like asteroids.  Since everyone insists a line MUST be drawn, how hard could it be to come up on a reasonable, universally-accepted value?  And just to cover another possible point of contention, one may exclude PROLATE spheroidal bodies, which would effectively be the "potato-shaped monstrosities" I mentioned before.

Well....It seems like a reasonable set of criteria to me....
Is the classification really necessary? Or is it just their habit to make things more complicated for the rest of us? This debate is trivial at best, if not pointless since its not like any of us will ever go to that planet in our life times.And isn't calling Pluto a dwarf planet a contradiction? Dwarfs being small and planets being large.
Apparently none of us want to work today.  How about we leave politics and religion and the galactic trans-hemispheric migration(how's that for a name)out of this one.  Though, we could ask Tom Cruise to consult Xenu and his Thetans about what we should do.
Several good points have been made about size differentiation.  There are a crapload of different types of dwarfism as far as people go.  There are rivers, streams, brooks, etc.  There is a difference where wire becomes cable.  Boat to ship.  Car to Truck.  Blah blah blah.  
What do we refer to Alderan as now that the Death Star blew it up?  I don't even know where I'm going with this.
AND NO STUPID, THE SUN IS NOT A PLANET.
Isn't a dwarf planet still a planet?  If not why is "planet" still in the name?  As far as I'm concerned, the planet list is still growing.  What makes people feel like EVERYTHING must be strictly categorized?  Come on... a planet is a planet regardless wheather it is a dwarf or not..
Hey, if Pluto is not a planet because it has not cleared out all the stuff in its orbit, what if we find some stuff in Earth's orbit 10 years from now. Will we then de-classify Earth as a planet?
Planets  Shmanits. . Let’s call them resource objects and use something akin to the automotive vin number that is coded to designate its characteristics, size, composition, spin, orbit and whatever.  That way some time in the future after the people of faith are gone and humanity can progress again we will be able to find resource objects that can be used to make mars suitable for human habitation by adding water and mass.  Earth could probably use a nice ice moon as a resource object for our space program.
I have a large interest in planetary activity, and I found this article very useful. Thank you.
There are only 4 planets: Mercury, Venus, Earth, and Mars...the "giants" are just big balls of gas and to not fit the definition  of planets. Pluto is more of a planet the the gas giants....
2012, isn't' that the date that the Inca calendar stopped as they could not see anything beyond that?
What a time to be had by all. PARTY,PARTY,PARTY, LIKE THERE IS NO TOMORROW! Who knows, maybe there won't be.
I agree with the river analogy, but it depends on who names it. It is a river or a creek? They are both exactly a like, just one bigger.
I like to think that Pluto is still planet, and always will. So sue me!
To borrow on the rivers concept, why not consider lakes. The United States has an untold number of them. Yet only 5 are considered Great Lakes. Why not call them all planets and designate the 8 as Great Planets?
>Perspective<
Our complete solar system doesn't even measure on the scale of it all! Why focus so much effort on these local specks of dust when there is so much more out there to discover! BTW: I like Stern's river analogy - smart! Also, to Dan Hilbert, I agree with your viewpoint regarding moons the size of planets. However, Titan is a moon circling Saturn, not Uranus.
Here's an idea. Poll children in grades 1 thru 8 and ask them how they want to handle this issue.
You can ask:
1)Is Pluto a planet?
2)If so, is everything the size of Pluto and bigger a planet?
They are the ones who will be dealing with this problem in the future so let them make the call. Then the textbooks can just be updated with new objects each year like historical dicoveries are added.
Planet isn't a scientific term.  It tells me nothing about the objects, structure, formation, or relationship to other objects.  It is a pop cultural term only.  We need to develop a Scientific Nomenclature for these "things" out there that will also cover "things" in the gravity well of other stars.
(Jaipal, India
Answer to your non-question is SUNday, MONday, Tuesday (MARteS in spanish), Wednesday (MiERColes in spanish), Thursday (JUeves in spanish), Friday (ViErNES in spanish), SATURday.)

I have changed my mind on Pluto being acknowledged as a planet. I think it should be, as well as Eris, etc... Pluto orbits the Sun, so classify it as a planet. I don't care if there are 30 more out there, name them, and we'll get used to it. We have got to get past this adolescents of "no change" that we are in.

I take it back, Pluto is not a planet. If it was as close to the Sun as the Earth, it would have a tail. Now call me crazy, but don't we already have names for objects with tails?

Just because Pluto is not classified as a planet, doesn't mean it is no longer there. It's still out there.
-Singe-
Jupiter is a failed star, with it's own little solar system going on. Look at all of it's satellites, kind of reminds you of the Sun and all of it's 8 planets orbiting.
Saturn as well. You give Saturn a few more years (thousands), and it's rings will be gone. It is very similar to Jupiter.
Also Jupiter is not that much bigger than Saturn. If you add the rings as part of the planet, Saturn is larger than Jupiter. But that would be like calling Pluto a Planet, lol.
The problem with the IAU definition of a planet is that it leaves only two panets in our solar system, because only Mercury and Venus are spherical by the force of their own gravities, and only they have cleared their orbits.  The rest have moons..

I agree that the only reason for this change in definition is that a group of scientists needed to have their names appended to a newly published definition.  If that were not so, they would have included all the spherical Kuiper belt objects as planets; they would have worried about truth in classification, rather than worrying about a cutesy mnemonic to memorize the planets' names (My Very Excellent Mother...).

Singe's point about the mass of Jupiter is well taken, but does not go far enough.  Compared to the Sun, the rest of our solar system is dust, so let's ignore the planets.  Beyond that, the universe is almost completely empty, so why not ignore  everything in the universe as a little dust?  



i agree with Joseph if it orbits the sun its a planet, if it orbits the pre-existing orbit it is a moon, its not that hard. and come on shouldn't we worry more about discovering planets and possible life out side of us not arguing over weather a celestial body is a planet or not!!!!
Don Boyer : You made me smile in recognition. You obviously understood the nature of egos in debates such as this one. Thinking ahead of our era just a bit...just a bit...
I wonder what Kurt Vonnegut, who is now in heaven... and looking at both us humans and the Kooper belt , would have to comment on all this.
Can anyone guess ?

Nonetheless, if Mad Mom, says there are nine planets as Pluto is a written fact and that we are discriminating ourselves because it is printed already in millions of textbooks, than for the sake of her children...I would I would suggest a massive book burning bonfire.
Kids love that stuff.

From all I understood from this debate, there is a big soup out there. But especially the following : a "higher" filosophical debate could be an option as to how our human minds work in order to classify and to name things.
It might occur to us then, that this debate is of minuscule importance to any one of us.
What we all already know I guess

Thanks for the entertainment. The world still looks pretty flat from what I've read about this issue.




Is this a political debate or scientific? It certainly isn't going in the direction that was initially intended. Aparently know one knows how many "planets" exist in the Milky Way, however, It was nine until Pluto was recently eliminated... Seems to me that simple math and not speculation should be improvised here.
I just want to know if other planets have added.I tell him of nine he says some have added.please I really want to know.


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