ABOUT COSMIC LOG

Quantum fluctuations in space, science, exploration and other cosmic fields... served up regularly by MSNBC.com science editor Alan Boyle since 2002.

Alan Boyle covers the physical sciences, anthropology, technological innovation and space science and exploration for MSNBC.com. He is a winner of the AAAS Science Journalism Award, the NASW Science-in-Society Award and other honors; a contributor to "A Field Guide for Science Writers"; and a member of the board of the Council for the Advancement of Science Writing.

Check out Boyle's biography or send a message to Cosmic Log via cosmiclog@msnbc.com.



Bye-bye to the bounce?

Posted: Friday, September 05, 2008 7:26 PM by Alan Boyle


Jae C. Hong / AP
Delegates are showered with balloons after John McCain's acceptance speech
during the Republican National Convention in St. Paul, Minn., on Thursday.

Republican presidential candidate John McCain didn't benefit from that big of a bounce today in the post-convention prediction markets. Then again, Democratic rival Barack Obama didn't get much of a bounce from his party's convention last week, either.

In fact, the idea that political conventions produce an upward "bounce" of popularity doesn't really apply to the prediction markets, and economists think they know why.

By the way, McCain's surprise selection of Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin to be his running mate didn't move the markets either, for different reasons.

The no-bounce campaign
Prediction markets represent an attempt to bring the dismal science of economics into the political sphere: Instead of relying on polls of representative voter samples, the markets simply provide an online method for buying and selling "stock" in various candidates of political propositions. (Similar markets have been set up for contests ranging from the Super Bowl to the Oscars race, by the way).

The Iowa Electronic Markets have offered real-money trading in political futures since the Bush-Dukakis campaign of 1988. Over the past 20 years, the IEM has been at least as accurate as political polls when it comes to picking the winners.

Here's how the system works: If you think McCain will win, based on his showing at this week's convention, you could plunk down up to $500 to buy shares that fluctuate based on his fortunes. The shares pay off at $1 each if McCain wins in November, but become worthless if he loses.

As of 5 p.m. ET today, McCain's shares were trading at 41.3 cents, which means the traders' consensus view is that McCain has a 41.3 percent chance of beating Obama. On the other hand, Obama's shares were valued at 59 cents - meaning that the Democrat is still the strong favorite, at least as far as the market is concerned.

The funny thing is that those values on the IEM have been basically unchanged (with one exception, detailed below) since Aug. 25, the day the Democratic convention opened. That runs counter to the conventional (heh, heh) wisdom that candidates enjoy a surge of popularity after their turn in the national spotlight.

"If you look at the prediction markets, it's been the most boring two weeks of the campaign," said Justin Wolfers, an economist at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School who has studied the dynamics of such markets for years.

This year isn't unusual in that respect. The IEM has never seen a post-convention bounce in the 20 years that it's been gathering statistics, said Tom Snee, a spokesman for the University of Iowa's Tippie College of Business.

"We speculate that's because the people on the IEM are really into politics, and they can see through a lot of the rhetoric and the stagecraft," Snee told me. "They look for substance - and there's not a lot of substance anymore at these things."

Obama's stock actually saw a significant but short-lived dip during the Democratic convention. That left the IEM's economists scratching their heads, but they did find that the dip correlated rumblings that Hillary Clinton's supporters might rebel against the presumed nominee. (Here's a pre-convention report that hinted as much.) Once Clinton gave her strong support to Obama, the downward plunge was reversed.

On InTrade's prediction market, there has been more of a bounce: Obama's shares have moved up and down, going from a little more than 58 cents on Aug. 23 to almost 62 cents on Wednesday, then dropping to today's closing price of 55.5 cents. As you'd expect, McCain's trend line went down (to 36 cents last week), then up (to 43 cents today). But in the grand scheme of things, not much has changed.

Wolfers' hunch is that traders generally discount the upward swings in the post-convention polls as being in line with expectations - just as traders on the stock market would shrug off expected good news about a company's quarterly earnings. "We think that financial markets are forward-looking in a way that political polls are not," he told me.

Standing pat on Palin
The current price stability doesn't mean the traders are frozen in place. So if the conventions' glare doesn't move the market much, what does?

"News," Snee answered. "News is really the big thing that moves it."

He pointed to the example of fallen Democratic hopeful John Edwards: When word got out that his wife had cancer, his shares fell from 7 cents to 2 cents. And when he announced that he wasn't quitting the race because of it, the shares rose to 11 cents - but then eventually settled back to 7 cents. Of course, now his shares aren't worth the paper they weren't printed on.

So wouldn't you think Palin's debut as McCain's vice-presidential pick would shake up the market? Neither her surprise selection, nor the reports about her political baggage, nor her raucously received convention speech made any difference in the GOP price levels.

"Apparently the traders didn't think it would help or hurt," Snee said.

Wolfers noted that there were wild swings last week in the prediction markets for GOP vice-presidential candidates (would it be Tim Pawlenty? Mitt Romney? Tom Ridge? Sarah Palin?!), but those swings had zero impact on the presidential prognosis.

"I think the most obvious inference from this is that no one thinks the VP matters," Wolfers said.

(After the Palin pick was announced, InTrade set up shares for "investing" in the chance that she'd be withdrawn as the GOP vice-presidential nominee. A couple of days ago, the stock was trading as high as 19 cents, but today it was in the 7-cent range.)

Maybe it's time to wave bye-bye to the bounce: Even political insiders are focusing less on the post-convention poll numbers and more on the complex perceptions hidden within those numbers - perceptions that could eventually affect political strategies as well as the marketplace.

The interpretation of those polls over the coming days could well make a difference, even in the prediction markets. "It's absolutely possible for the wonks who are trading to not be able to read Joe Six-Pack," Wolfers said.

Unless something unexpected emerges, the next big opportunity for a move in the market will come during the debates, which open with an Obama-McCain faceoff on Sept. 26. If nothing happens to change the equation, the Democrats will likely retain their market edge. But if McCain or Palin score points, watch how the traders react.

Speaking out on science
Speaking of debates, ScienceDebate 2008 is still working to shed more of the spotlight on issues that have a scientific or technological twist. We're not just talking about the outrageous price of lab helium here, but about concerns ranging from climate change to international competitiveness, from fuel cells to stem cells.

ScienceDebate 2008's organizers couldn't get the candidates together to talk about such issues during the presidential primary season, but in July they offered up 14 questions for would-be presidents to answer. (Scientists and Engineers for America have drawn up a seven-question version for congressional candidates.)

A week ago, ScienceDebate 2008 announced that Obama had sent in his answers to the questions.

"Most of America's major unsolved challenges revolve around these 14 questions," ScienceDebate2008's chief executive officer, Shawn Otto, said in a news release. "To move America forward, the next president needs a substantive plan for tackling them going in, and voters deserve to know what that plan is. We're pleased that Senator Obama has provided voters with that substantive plan, and we're hoping for similarly thoughtful responses from Senator McCain."

In his response, Obama said "ensuring that the U.S. continues to lead the world in science and technology will be a central priority for my administration."

Obama talked about expanding scholarship programs to beef up teaching resources in high-need schools; encouraging reductions in carbon emissions through a market-based, cap-and-trade system; increasing federal spending on energy research and development; boosting support for embryonic stem-cell research; and much, much more.

McCain - or members of his campaign staff - could no doubt send ScienceDebate 2008 a similarly detailed case for his science and technology policies by distilling all the statements he has already made on such issues. So why haven't they done so already?

Update for 7:30 a.m. ET Sept. 8: McCain's shares did post a 4.5-cent day-to-day uptick on the IEM in the latest trade on Sunday night, based on the daily price chart. The average price showed a 1.3-cent rise, so that would qualify as a bounce. The message to be drawn from that could be that traders saw something in the post-convention enthusiasm worth acting on. But the rise was nowhere near the kinds of jumps that were reported by traditional polls, first for Obama, and now for McCain.

As of late Sunday night, Obama's shares were valued at 56 cents, and McCain's were at 44 cents in the winner-take-all market. In the vote-share market, traders try to figure out how much of the vote the Republicans and the Democrats will get: In the day's final trade, The Democrats' projected share was 52.2, and the Republicans' share was 46.5. Because these are all separate trading propositions, the totals don't necessarily add up to 100 percent.

Check out msnbc.com's Politics section and the First Read blog for more on the presidential race.

MAIN PAGE

Email this EMAIL THIS

Comments

Why would McCain bother to send it in?  His campaign is not about issues.
I wouldn't expect McSame to get ANY bounce whatsoever.  For the "speech of his life", he responded with the most incredibly moribund, ineffective and incredibly self serving bland droll I've ever heard from a politician EVER.  Shame on the media (Jeffrey Toobin on CNN EXCLUDED) of complicit deceit in not calling this speech a total shame.  He is a discredit to anyone wearing a uniform with his chronic POW pandering...Oh BOO HOO HOO.   That was then John - what have you done for US lately???
I don't know where you're getting your information. A visit to pollster.com will show you the major polls give Obama a substantial post-convention bounce, in the neighborhood of 5-9 points! The contest may have been close before the conventions. But now analysts generally acknowledge that Obama is ahead in the neighborhood of ~48-43 over McCain, and building a steady and growing lead. Let's just hope it continues.
The reason McCain hasn't replied is because he keeps changing his stance on the issues....whichever way the Republican Puppet Master pulls him.
The only polls that count are the ones the voters make in November.  Polls are mostly wrong so why bother with them.  

MC CAIN +   PALIN  =  A SOLID TEAM, HONEST AND TRUSTWORTHY
I suspect the lack of post-convention bounces in candidate popularity is due to our extremely polarized electorate. Extremism breeds extremism. When there is an extremist administration in office, we all cling to our side, right or left, with an intense fierceness, even convincing ourselves that the other side is "evil." There are no post-convention bounces because most people have already made up their minds, and have no intention, no matter what happens, of changing them. I know I have.
Right, Morton, I'm not talking about the polls here, but rather the markets. The analogy would be, let's say, earnings vs. share price. Let's say Applesoft comes out with a new iWidget that increases the company's earnings by 20 percent. That's good, right? But suppose the traders were expecting an increase of 40 percent? They would bid down the stock, even though the company registered an earnings rise.

Similarly, traders could discount a bounce in the polls because they are looking at a bigger picture and see that the fundamentals don't necessarily justify increasing their "investment." I know this sounds like gambling, but the technique has been found to be pretty accurate...

http://www.biz.uiowa.edu/iem/archive/BFNR_2000.pdf

... And that's why economists and political scientists are studying the prediction-market phenomenon.
By the way, I'm not likely to approve comments that don't reference the original item. So comments that don't even make an effort to refer to the issue of political polling or ScienceDebate 2008's campaign won't be showing up.
Science issues and Adances in technologies are subjects that the GOP just don't believe to be a priority, relevant or more important than war or Drilling for oil.
I wasn't expecting any bounce for McCain and Palin. This was especially so after Wednesday. After she delivered her speech, it was obvious that the only people excited were the folks at the convention who had nothing to cheer for all year long. Infact there is a good chance that she repulsed swing and independant voters with her rabid attitude. McCain tried to do some damage control the next day but it was too late. The hope to catch some late undecided voters failed. No one wants a hot headed, disrespectful person in the White House whether man, woman or pitbull. Now unfortunately, McCain is in a dilemma because he cant be all nice and adoring to independants because his deputy has already extinguished that avenue.
The idea of markets - or more broadly; predictive techniques - such as the ones outlined in the article have a surprisingly rich history of success.

I am reminded of the application of similar principles in recovering a lost thermonuclear weapon off of the coast of Spain in the 1960s.  The efforts led by Dr. John Craven, applied Bayesian search theory - in essence with input data points strikingly similar to how bets that are placed on financial markets.

You HAVE to know Alan that polling is averaged over 3 days, McCain's bounce or lack thereof won't be fully known until early next week. This is the type of bias and hack reporting that upsets conservatives like myself.

[ALAN ADDS: I hope I made clear that I'm not talking about traditional political polling, but rather about the money-based prediction markets. This is why I've made no reference to the tracking polls, or the fact that the "bounce" in the traditional polls may show up next week. In the markets, the enthusiasm factor that pollsters pick up on through later surveys has already been accounted for ... and discounted. However, as Justin Wolfers told me, it's quite possible that traders will see something in the polls that impress them to the extent that the trading values actually do rise in response.

[Someone else asked whether such markets can be manipulated. The IEM limits "investment" to $500, so that may be a built-in brake on trading. InTrade deals with higher volumes of trading, so that may contribute to volatility, and provide more potential for market manipulation. Wolfers noted that Friday's volume on the InTrade presidential prediction market was $170,000 ... and for this particular market, that's starting to get into real money. Tom Snee told me that the IEM has seen some indication that folks are trying to manipulate the market, but so far it hasn't worked. Wolfers thinks that he may be seeing some "artificial" effects on the markets lately, though he can't verify it. I do try to avoid bias, hack reporting and idiocy if I can ... so I'm sorry if you somehow see those elements creep in to my scribblings.] 

To the writer of this article:

Are you a complete idiot? The poll results that will have included both Palin & Mccain's speech will not even be available until Sunday.  Obama got a very obvious 8 pt bounce from his convention and it looks as if Mccain will get about the same from his evening things out.

The idiocy of MSNBC writers never ceases to amaze me.

You biased fools.
I think most of America suffering from election fatigue...quit with all the polls already!!
The ScienceDebate 2008 questions are excellent, and I'm grateful to you for bringing them to my attention.    They make it quite clear how important scientific education, research, and development are to the most pressing issues of our time.  Barack Obama's answers are thoughtful and clear, and even though they were probably written by his campaign, they give me hope.  The ScienceDecision 2008 website says that John McCain's campaign has promised answers as well, and I'm really curious what they will be.  One of the annoying things about McCain in this campaign is his propensity to support positions that he knows he would not really act on and make statements that he must know are not true.  Will he answer these questions honestly, knowing that the audience for his responses will be largely scientific, or will he play to the anti-intellectual scorn for science that his party has done so much to cultivate?  
Polls have stabilised as each party faithful have settled in a mode. The only question is the undecideds, maybe 9% of total voters. They can and will swing several times in the next 59 days. But, at the end of Nov 4th, I beleive Obama will win this election by virtue of a majority of votes and electoral college votes.  
People actually pay attention to "the bounce"  ROFL...no wonder our country is in the shape its in.
It's kind of hard to have a bounce during a time when the country is split down the middle.  With both candidates pulling numbers around 44-47% since the primaries ended there really isn't much room.  I don't think there are as many undecided voters as the polls claim, just people who don't want to say out loud what there decision is.
I would have been surprised if the electronic markets showed a convention bounce.  The conventions are designed to manipulate (the voting) public opinon about the candidates.

If it were important for the campaigns to manipulate the electronic markets (if, for example, the markets enjoyed extensive news coverage) then the campaigns would be able to manipulate the electronic markets as well, although not to the same degree that they manipulate public opinion.
Just as candidates bashing candidates will not sway a voter to change positions, neither will commentary from the public sway voters to an opposing side. People will, and should, vote on the candidate they believe in, and one that supports the same ideals that they do. Its understandable that people get heated up during election season.......after all, they want their candidate to win. But do yourselves all a favor, be a strong, positive supporter of your own candidate and get over it that people dont think exactly the same as you. All politicians lie, so vote for the person you think lies the least and be done.
Hello,
I have a question.  In thinking about the strategy of the selection of Sarah Palin (which I found very puzzling given the previous "experience" strategy) and assuming some rationality, I have formulated an hypothesis that the selection has less to do with the impact of the presidential election than with the down stream elections.  If, barring some gamechaning event, the RNC knows that they have a strong possibility of losing with McCain, then logically the strategy would move to securing as many Congressional seats as possible.  Given that a high proportion of contested Senate seats are in the West, and Palin is a "red meat" candidate designed to appeal to the base, I think this might make sense.  Could you check you Congressional markets and see if there is an impact from Palin's selection or speech to see if there is any support for my hypothesis?  
Do you really think you can poll people right after the convention?  OMG dude its a little early to say this, wait and let the polling do it job after the weekend.  Geeze.
TruThat! definitely hit it on the head. Anyone that believes that advances in science and technology are not the future has no business in politics today. We, as a nation and as a world leader, need to step it up and fund anything that is science. NASA, LHC, telecommunications, GPS, robotics, etc. These fields are the future, NOT oil, NOT war. As far as the bounce is concerned, I am seriously astonished that Mclame's rating or standing didnt go down. He is just starting to use the internet, maybe we should send him the link to science.com so he can read up on some of the discoveries that our species has made. Hopefully Obama can have the vision of the future that most of us have. Peace and ease of life. To solve disease and poverty, we first need to accomplish these advances in tech and science that are required get us to that point. Go MOON!!!!
Regardless of what psuedo-science polls can or cannot predict, one fact sticks with me. When Clinto left office we had a surplus in our wallet. Now we have moths floating out and more breeding there. I'm for surpluses that keep the U.S. headed in a direction that's good for OUR citizens FIRST, and the rest of the world SECOND. Does that make me an old fashioned isolationist, well...if you need labels I guess that one works as well as any other.

All the ad campaigns are laughable and an insult to the American people. I can't imagine why EITHER party bothers to spend so much money on them...they are a JOKE that falls flat with punch lines that do NOT deliver. If this is the best we have to offer, it's no wonder the rest of the world finds our political process in need of an overhaul, and nothing that they would want to emulate. Democracy? Hmmm, if that means taking every statement out of context to make oneself look better than the other candidate, then we are in serious trouble if we think we can sell democracy to other nations.

I used to be an eager voter, now I'm cynical beyond all reason and only hope for some kind of future parity for my family and my country. My fervent hope and prayer is that at SOME point in the campaigns between now and November at least ONE candidate will say what they mean and mean what they say.

I don't think that's too much to ask, and it's what we deserve as a nation that was founded on those principals.
this article could have mentioned that "prediction markets" have been beating just about every other prediction method when it comes to predicting unpredictable things like political campaigns. no one knows exactly why yet, except maybe people care so much more about money (not a bad thing) than they do about imaginary things like "values." for example, the prediction markets were far more accurate than the polls all through the obama-clinton razor fight.

there is no doubt at all that the american people, and not just republicans, have consciously and unconsciously thrown away our technological lead (it's not obvious yet. but it will become more and more obvious every year from now on) over the last ten to fifteen years. everything from anti-intellectual religiosity to right-wing, anti-immigration xenophobia to election-year red tape has contributed to this trend. and it's probably too late to reverse it now. amreica is no longer the place where the world's smartest students go to succeed. even the smartest americans are moving elsewhere. enjy your iphones. it's the last time an american company is going to leap ahead of the rest of the world.

lieberman uber alles!
McCain hasn't responded because they have to somehow manage to reconcile Palin's extreme, and in some cases diametrically opposed views into their campaign.
Thanks, great article.  I was hearing about the prediction market but was clueless as to what it was exactly.  Great explanation.  Very, very informative in an election year that sees just too much ranting and fear-mongering instead of real issues being discussed.

And it is very telling that McCain has not sent in his science and technology response - critical thing has become a thing of the past for a large segment of the American population, if it ever existed.

Do you think reviving the Cold War fears would help education, technology and science?  Obviously, global warming has not had much effect yet on the thinking of the Palins of the world.  Cynical, yes, but it's kind of fun fantasising about how to actually crack this nut. (I'm not calling anyone a nut, but this whole election has been so "interesting" to see how surprisingly diverse the views of Americans are, and how the meesages of one one side are so foreign to the other.  Just amazingly fascinating.)

Interesting article - I had never heard of such a market. War and drilling for oil are full of opportunities for scientific and technological advances. But really, the point is, if we don't stop transfering all our wealth to the Saudi's and the Chinese, we won't have any money left for science.

Drilling for oil and building nuclear reactors are just stopgap measures, but without them, we may not survive as a major player in the world economy.

When it comes to energy independence and climate change, McCain promises to do just as much as Obama is promising.  Looking at his voting record, though, it's clear he consistently votes down proposals that would help America build wind, solar, or other alternative energy plants.  He says the magic word "nuclear power" all the time, but he fails to mention that nuclear power is actually extremely expensive- the feds would have to heavily subsidize it, just like the French.  Plus, no one's exactly volunteering their own backyard as a dump for the nuclear waste. McCain also opposes any international agreement that would mandate reductions of US carbon emissionos; they would "slow down our economy", aka bring the oil companies record losses.  It's clear that McCain is no real friend to the environment.  At least he seems to be able to pronounce the word nuclear correctly.

We are a civilization built on science and technology.  It's frightening that our leadership in both is slipping away to other countries in Europe and in Asia.  The right man in the Oval Office could help us get back on track, and that man is definitely not McCain.
Science Debate: Most of the questions invite standard campaign rhetoric, puffed up but meaningless responses. Nobody is going to say that health, education, competitiveness, innovation, etc, are unimportant.

A few, however, are different: climate change, stem cells, possibly ocean health. McCain runs the risk that intelligent responses will irritate the base; going with the base will disenchant the moderates. I don't think he is in any hurry to respond.

Political markets and the bounce: It's clear that most commentators didn't read or understand the difference between markets and polls that was made in the article.

My question is, how does the volatility of the election market compare to the volatility of a stock market? Are there trading rules that slow the pace of transactions? What is the potential for arbitrage? Are the behaviors of thin markets with few stocks different from broader markets?

Is there any evidence that some were buying Obama stocks before the convention, seeking to sell them at as the bounce peaked, trading into McCain stocks in the early days of the Republican convention? This would smooth out the prices, making the bounce harder to detect.
Someone on MSNBC said the other evening (I do not remember who, but things just are not the same this year without our lost friend and national conscience Tim Russert to keep the party enforcers honest) that roughly 45% of the country is locked down Republican and about 45% locked down Democratic. I believe they have it about right. The hoopla with a convention is designed to get a party's respective 45% locked down even tighter and to the polls.  The real election is over the other 10% of us, who want good government, rather than to be on the winning 'team' as it were. It is tough for us.  We can stomach neither party platform, which is ripe with outrageous no-nonsense pandering to the die-hard’s of the party.  I almost have to go with Obama for the simple reason that I fear McCain may allow us (with a lot of help from his friends) to continue to slide into some sort of 'pseudo jesus cult – scofield based theocracy' ... you know, the thing the founding feathers warned us about repeatedly, and with such good reason.  I am not completely comfortable with this, though.  Democrats have proven time and again that when they hold power, they want to micromanage the country from Washington.  Now that the Republicans have proven themselves no better .... it is yet another 'lesser of two evils' election for many of us *sigh* ...
"So why haven't they done so already?"

Since announcing his VP pick, McCain has been campaigning from cloud nine. The predictions market doesn't apply up there. Come the Day After, they'll be plunged back to earth--too late to analyze the behavior of predictions traders. Like all clueless losers, they'll then create a lost cause myth.
I find the theory fascinating and have been interested in the phenomenon for a while.  I'm reassured when I hear that Sen. Obama responded. That shows me that he's actually thought about the importance of science in our society going forward. We need a forward thinking President!  
Large investments in infrastructure seems to run in cycles in our society, no matter who pushes them.  Despite Reagan's support for the superconducting collider, it was never built.  Now the science focus shifts to Europe as CERN opens the LHC.  China is sending up manned spacecraft, Japan is working on its own space program, and basic advances in a number of sciences are now being made in India and South America.  This is already having an effect, despite the dullards who see "no benefit" to research, BOTH presidental candidates have sworn to invest in the US infrastructure for science and for a great many other needed improvements as well.  All this eventually shows up on the bottom line of the economy as improved efficiency/productivity/innovation.  It's time to rebuild once again, and I'm sure we will.  It is worth remember that the 200 inch telescope on Palomar was the world's largest for quite a few decades, and it was built during the depression.
I think most people took a decision already.  Who are these people the polls reflect that can't decide, or keep changing their minds?
If they want to see the bounce maybe they could each take some of their millions in campaign money and use it for something more worthy NOW instead of the silly commercials that people mute or change the channel anyway when they come on. Who benefits from these commercials? Only television stations, production companies, and the like but Americans are bored to tears with them. SO, I challenge both Obama and McSame to put their money where their mouths are now and use that money for Change now instead of spending it on the same old "I approved this message" garbage. Find anything that needs change, a school, park, playground, neighborhood,etc. and use that campaign money to improve lives right now. Making silly commercials with millions and flooding yards with cardboard signs which blow all over the streets really is a waste of money! I'd love to see candidates who tried to top each other by actually doing something worthy for people NOW instead of grandstanding on a stage preaching to their choirs for applause and a spot on Nightly News. Politics as usual is as usual all about them and never about us.

I thought McCain was 8 points behind at the beginning of the convention.  Today, according to CBS poll, he and Obama are tied.  Seems like a bounce to me.  Unless one is blind and deaf and completely isolated from the media they are aware of the Palin Mania that is sweeping across this country.  Try again!  You missed it this time completely. I am sure this will never make the net.  

[ALAN ADDS: Again, I should point out that I'm talking about the prediction markets, which have had a better track record than political polls for predicting the outcome of presidential elections. And a better track record than folks who predict whether or not their comment will appear on the Internet.   ;-)   ]

With there only being a 15% undecided vote to fight over, it is not surprising that the pompous nature of the coventions failed to sway these voters. It is likely the undecided will wait for the debates. And though i found John McCain's speech to endearing in his plight to survive in Hanoi's prison camp I need to know what he plans on doing. He stated he wants to send people to community college to train them for jobs but did not tell me where the jobs are to come from. His voting record as of late on veterans affairs is deplorable and he seems to be staking his future on these issues which I would assume is why he went with nostalgia.
The bounce of the convention won't come out until Monday or Tuesday...
"Democrats have proven time and again that when they hold power, they want to micromanage the country from Washington." Stephen Jackson

I wonder if this isn't more the conventional wisdom than the actuality. How exactly did Clinton micromanage the economy? Or Carter, Johnson, Kennedy?

Both parties attempt macromanagement. It was Carter's appointment of the monetarist Voelker, not so long after the work of Milton Freidman gained wide acceptance, that changed from macromanagement by fiscal policy to monetary policy.

What Democrats do favor is more regulation. Regulation promotes transparency and reduces risk, making the market work better. I saw it someplace just a couple of days ago - economic growth is higher under Democratic than Republican administrations.
Polls are reliably "unreliable"...Truman against Dewey in 1948 is a prime example.  What if a pollster were "bought off" and produced skewed results???

We'll just have to see what the results will be in November.  And let's hope that Obama gets CRUSHED.
Absent of some major scandal, McCain/Palin will win - polls schmolls...they're incredibly biased by never having more than 35% of their respondents claiming to be Republicans. If McCain keeps the biased polls witin the margin of error he will win.
I wish people would read the article.  This has nothing to do with traditional polls.  If you think it does, go back and read it again.  These "markets" have a much quicker (and accurate) response to events in the political world.
I kept an eye on the Intrade market, and I thought there was a pretty significant bounce for McCain.  He got as hign as $0.45 before profit taking reduced his bounce.  Still at $0.42, I still think he is trading higher than he was when he went into the convention.  Back when it became clear it would be a Obama-McCain race, McCain traded at $0.30.  So, I tend to disagree with the premise of the article.
I am fascinated by the concept of "marketing" political campaigns, but I am even more fascinated by the apparent inability of so many of the commenters on this site to comprehend that you are not talking about polls, and have repeated that several times, to no apparent avail!  No wonder this country is in trouble, people have no comprehension of what they read!
I'm not a big player in the market nor am I informed enough to even think I could have any intelligent input on this subject. But I have a few questions. 1) How did Bill Clinton get us out of the enormous debt he inherited when he took office and improve the economy at the same time? No matter what anyone may think of him personally, they can't deny the fact that he did this. 2) I have always said that if it had not been for email, porn and the opportunity to daytrade without a broker, the personal computer would have never been a success. So now I would like to know if the daytraders have become a negative influence on the market by increasing the market's volatibility? 3) If the daytraders are a negative influence on the market which results in a negative influence on the economy, can anything be done about it?

Thanks for the informative article.
For those folks who stayed awake during Political Science classes, this certainly is an historic presidential campaign, and as best as I have been able to determine, it is the first presidential campaign where a candidate focused intensely on controlling and owning what one might call the online and interactive digital communication space, which spans websites, blogs, instant messaging, Twitter, YouTube, and the political stock market described and explained in this installment of the "Cosmic Log" . . .

To be more precise, early in the campaign I began to get the distinct impression that it was very different from previous presidential campaigns, if only because one of the Democrat contenders in the primary launched his campaign with a YouTube video of attractive young women wearing t-shirts with what one might call the modern version of "I Like Ike!" slogans, which certainly was a novel way to introduce oneself to the voting public . . .  

Sometime later, after observing more of such apparently non-standard campaign strategies, a few strange thoughts began appearing in the particular part of my brain that focuses on discerning the obvious, even when it is not so obvious on first inspection, with the consequence that I started to suspect that it might be possible to hire vast teams of professional offshore workers to engage round the clock in activities such as voting in online political polls, posting short messages to blogs, and so forth and so on . . .

Insofar as I know, there are no specific laws that prevent doing something like this, and if one has the money to pay for it, then it simply is a matter of deciding to do it and then getting connected to the telemarketing and other types of companies that specialize in this type of work . . .

Stated another way, my thinking generally is that if I can imagine it happening, and if it doable within the legal framework of our great nation, then someone else probably can and perhaps already has imagined it and then has put the strategy into motion . . .

So, how does this relate to trading artificially created political stock and interpreting the resulting market data sensibly?

One perspective is that manipulating a market primarily only requires a lot of money and some very specific resources, so it is entirely possible to do, especially when it is not specifically prohibited by law . . .

In other words, given a virtually unlimited budget, I think it is entirely possible and practical to control or to own quite a few digital spaces (YouTube, Twitter, MySpace, Facebook, assorted blogs, news websites, so forth and so on), if only because initially few if any people in their wildest imaginations ever would suspect that controlling or owning a digital space actually is so easy to do . . .

When you take the time to engage in the required arithmetic, all it takes essentially to buy a viral YouTube video are a few geographically diverse centers filled with workers who join YouTube and then click on a specific video 24x7, over and over and over, but always in a way that makes it difficult or impossible for the YouTube security folks to recognize that they are being "owned" by what for all practical purposes are highly paid professional hackers . . .

Could a similar strategy be used to "own" an artificially created political stock market?

Sure!

Or, it could be just a matter of enough people deciding sua sponte to support their candidate with their pocketbooks and purses in a rather unusual and somewhat expensive way . . .

Of course, the problem with this type of strategy, as is the case with polls in general, is that it is only so effective as the accuracy of the initial presumptions that create and guide it . . .

In Political Science, as sometimes is the case in Probability and Statistics generally, a classic example appears and is used by professors to emphasize the importance of vast initial conditions and presumptions . . .

Specifically, it focuses on a political poll which was conducted based on selecting people from a telephone book in New York City (or perhaps Manhattan) nearly a century ago during especially difficult economic times not so long after the telephone appeared on a somewhat large scale . . .

The results of the poll showed one candidate winning by a landslide, but in the actual election that candidate in fact lost by a landslide, and after a bit of analysis the cause of the huge error was determined to be the simple fact that only very wealthy people could afford telephones, hence were the overwhelming majority of folks who were listed in the telephone book . . .

Great idea for a political poll, but the premise was fundamentally flawed in a way that skewed the results in the extreme . . .

And connecting a few dots, this is the way I view what I think is the first large-scale attempt to control digital space in a presidential election, in the sense that while it might appear to be a great idea, it simply does not matter in the grand scheme of everything, because there simply are not enough voters in the the YouTube, MySpace, Facebook, Twitter, IM, and all the other digital spaces to amount to a hill of beans when compared to all the senior folks and their "Baby Boomer" children--a group of folks who will stand outside in a roaring blizzard or a hurricane if that is what is required for them to cast their ballots in a presidential election AND who generally are pretty clueless when it comes to digital spaces . . .

All the YouTube et al. folks are not going to get cold and wet to vote, if they even bothered to register to vote, and the only queue they will form is the one outside of an Apple Store or perhaps a game store, where they will stand in line for days to get a new iPhone or the latest version of Grand Theft Auto (Special Airhead Edition), but there are not going to be a lot of them in the queue on the first Tuesday in November, which is something the Founding Fathers realized, with this being one of the reasons the presidential election is held on a day when the weather is not always so fair and sunny . . .

In other words, if you are not willing to stand outside in the rain or snow, then perhaps you should be discouraged from being among the group of citizens who select the next president of our great nation, with the most simple way of doing this being to include a bit of unpredictable weather in the equation . . .

Thanks!
Aaron, you're right that the InTrade figures did show more of a bounce for both candidates, and I understand that there was a significant spike on Friday, up and down as you describe. I was looking only at the closing figures day by day, but this is something that Justin Wolfers remarked about. This may be an instance of the market at work ... the price was bid up by folks who really felt pumped about McCain after the convention (and saw that things went well), and then bid down by "profit-takers" ... people who were not quite as optimistic about McCain's chances and decided to sell off. Remember, this is a winner-take-all investment, so the profit takers not only serve to balance the market but also balance the political assessment as well.
The reason McCain hasn't responded is because he is equally unable or unqualified to answer a question without the help of someone else. Pretty scary to think John McCain could not answer and return the 14 questions regarding science/scientific issues and he and the RNC/GOP will not allow Palin to speak to or answer questions from the press or media.  What about the rights of voting Americans - shouldn't we be allowed to know something about the people we may vote into public service?
Obama had his bounce stolen by the Palin announcement, on the other hand, on the day Palin spoke at the RNC she motivated people to donate $8 million to Obama.

McCain will get a tiny bounce, but he was behind already.


SEND A COMMENT

PLEASE READ: All comments must be approved before appearing in the thread; time and space constraints prevent all comments from appearing. We will only approve comments that are directly related to the blog, use appropriate language and are not attacking the comments of others.

Message (please, no HTML tags. Web addresses will be hyperlinked):

TRACKBACKS

Trackbacks are links to weblogs that reference this post. Like comments, trackbacks do not appear until approved by us. The trackback URL for this post is: http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/trackback.aspx?PostID=1355855

Latest Tech & Science News

Syndicate This Site

Add Cosmic Log to your news reader:
live.com xml
myyahoo msn
bloglines newsgator
google