ABOUT COSMIC LOG

Quantum fluctuations in space, science, exploration and other cosmic fields... served up regularly by MSNBC.com science editor Alan Boyle since 2002.

Alan Boyle covers the physical sciences, anthropology, technological innovation and space science and exploration for MSNBC.com. He is a winner of the AAAS Science Journalism Award, the NASW Science-in-Society Award and other honors; a contributor to "A Field Guide for Science Writers"; and a member of the board of the Council for the Advancement of Science Writing.

Check out Boyle's biography or send a message to Cosmic Log via cosmiclog@msnbc.com.



Courts weigh doomsday claims

Posted: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 4:10 PM by Alan Boyle


J. Pequenão / CERN / ATLAS
This artist's conception simulates the particle tracks that could be left behind by
the creation and decay of a black hole in the Large Hadron Collider's ATLAS
detector. The researcher with a hardhat is shown only to give a sense of scale.

Critics who say the world's largest atom-smasher could destroy the world have brought their claims to courtrooms in Europe and the United States - and although the claims are getting further consideration, neither court will hold up next week's official startup of the Large Hadron Collider.

The main event took place today in Honolulu, where a federal judge is mulling over the federal government's request to throw out a civil lawsuit filed by retired nuclear safety officer Walter Wagner and Spanish science writer Luis Sancho.

Meanwhile, legal action is pending as well at the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg, France. Last week, the court agreed to review doomsday claims from a group of professors and students, primarily from Germany and Austria. However, the court rejected a call for the immediate halt of operations at the LHC.

What it's all about
In the U.S. as well as the European lawsuit, the plaintiffs claim that those involved in the particle collider's operation have not adequately addressed the idea that the LHC could create globe-gobbling microscopic black holes or other catastrophes such as matter-wrecking strangelets or magnetic monopoles. They're calling for further safety reviews to be conducted.

The defendants - including the U.S. Department of Energy as well as Europe's CERN particle-physics center - say such fears already have been knocked down in a series of safety reports. The reports, drawn up by leading researchers in high-energy physics, note that cosmic-ray collisions are many times more energetic and prevalent than the collisions expected at the LHC. If the LHC were capable of creating cosmic catastrophes, they would already have been seen many times over in the wider universe, even in the unlikeliest circumstances, the researchers say.

Past "big-bang machines" have faced similar legal challenges, but the worries are emerging anew because the LHC will smash protons together at energies seven times higher than the current world record, held by the Tevatron at Fermilab in Illinois.

Physicists hope to gain new insights into mysteries of the universe ranging from dark matter to supersymmetric particles. The main quarry is an as-yet-undetected subatomic particle called the Higgs boson, also known as the "God Particle." The Higgs boson is the only fundamental particle predicted by current theory that has not yet been found. If it does not exist, that would add weight to alternative theories that depend on extra dimensions of space-time.

Theorists say the LHC could create microscopic black holes - or, more accurately, subatomic knots of ultra-concentrated energy - only if there are extra dimensions. Current theory also dictates that these knots would unravel instantly. The LHC's critics take issue with that particular claim.

In any case, the collider won't be in a position to create any type of black hole for months. The scheduled Sept. 10 turn-on would circulate only one beam of protons around the LHC's 17-mile-round ring at low energy. The first low-energy collisions won't occur until at least a month from now, and the device won't achieve its top collision energy until next year. That's why the courts are not rushing to rule on the critics' claims.

What's happening in court
Both sides in the federal lawsuit contributed to a flurry of filings in the days before today's hearing in District Judge Helen Gillmor's Honolulu courtroom.

The federal government's attorneys, representing the Energy Department, wanted Gillmor to dismiss the suit or render a summary judgment against Wagner and Sancho - on the grounds that the suit's outcome won't affect operations at the European collider, and that the plaintiffs missed their deadlines for legal filings.

In response, the plaintiffs insisted that their challenge was timely and said the defendants' past assurances did not ease their concerns about the safety issues. They called for the case to continue toward trial, with a tentative date of June 2009 already scheduled.

In the next legal volley, Bruce Strauss, who was the Energy Department's associate program manager for the LHC construction project, took aim at Wagner's credentials as well as his arguments. Strauss wrote that assessing the LHC's safety would "require competency in the field of high-energy physics, not health physics or nuclear medicine." Strauss also questioned Wagner's claims about his role in research, citing recent searches of scientific literature.

Strauss said that the federal lawsuit would have no effect on LHC operations because the federal role in building the collider ended a while ago. He said federal funds were now slated to go only toward supporting research activities at the LHC, to the tune of $10 million a month.

On the safety issue, Strauss said CERN's recent report, which was reviewed by outside experts, covered all the realistic scenarios for out-of-control black holes as well as the other doomsday scenarios - and he pointed out that experts at the American Physical Society recently endorsed the report's conclusions. Two Nobel laureates (Sheldon Glashow and Frank Wilczek) as well as a prominent Harvard physicist (Richard Wilson) have also taken the government's side as friends of the court.

Wagner responded to the government's volley just before today's hearing with yet another round of documents. He contended that the LHC would search for strangelets, insisted that yet-to-be-published research "absolutely refutes" claims that the LHC is safe and complained about Strauss' "ad hominem" attacks - while adding a little hominem of his own. For example, Wagner said Strauss once was searching for evidence of magnetic monopoles himself and was "apparently rankled that my work was successful, while his was not."

If this sounds to you like a blizzard of documents, you're not alone. At today's hearing, Judge Gillmor took both sides to task for filing so many disjointed documents and for failing to follow the local rules of the court, Justice Department spokesman Andrew Ames told me. (I've left a phone message with Wagner to get his side of the story.)

Gillmor took the case under advisement and will decide whether or not to dismiss the case at a later, not-yet-determined time. If the case goes forward, the next step would be to consider the plaintiffs' requests for a preliminary injunction against LHC operations as well as for a summary judgment against CERN.

Will the judge weather yet another storm of paperwork? Maybe not. "She doesn't want any more filings without her permission," Ames told me.

Update for 6:50 p.m. ET Sept. 3: In the wake of Tuesday's 52-minute hearing, Judge Gillmor agreed with the federal government's claim that it is immune from any legal action based on European legal documents (specifically, the European Council's Precautionary Principle and the European Commission's Science and Society Action Plan).

She also denied the request to enter a friend-of-the-court brief on behalf of the three physicists because she received no legally admissible evidence (such as an affidavit) that the physicists were actually involved in the filing.

Update for 7:30 p.m. ET Sept. 6: The transcript of the Hawaii hearing, provided to me by Wagner, sheds more light on Judge Gillmor's thinking. No. 1 is that she's taking the case seriously. At one point in the proceedings she took Wagner to task for filing some documents after the deadline, but added this:

"I'm not going to strike your filings because, while it is difficult to make our way through all of these documents that are quasi-appropriate, the nature of the issue raised is too important for the court to strike them just as a matter of course."

Gillmor focused on the legal process rather than the minutiae of scientific theory: Was the Energy Department required to address the doomsday scenario in an environmental impact statement? Has the statute of limitations for that requirement expired, now that the federal money is finished spending money for LHC construction (but is still supporting U.S. researchers involved in LHC experiments)? How much should the federal government be held accountable for activities in Europe? Is the United States a partner or a mere observer at CERN?

In an occasionally tart exchange with Justice Department attorney Andrew Smith, the judge discussed whether Wagner and Sancho had the proper standing to sue:

Smith: "OK, let's assume that there was a NEPA [National Environmental Protection Act] obligation, and maybe there's a NEPA document out there, maybe there's not. But we don't even need to get there. Plaintiffs' complaint says they have to be injured by this project. Their only claim to injury..."

Gillmor: "... is that the world might blow up, and so we shouldn't get concerned about that. You're right. Why was I even considering it? Mr. Smith, I mean, I really find that, you know, I don't know if there's anything to this case, but that's just not a great direction to be going."

Smith: "I'm not following you. I mean, if their only claim to injury is that the world's ..."

Gillmor: "That they might die."

Smith: "Right."

Gillmor: "Yes."

Smith: "So they have to show that that's a credible injury. Is it actually going to happen? I can't just go into federal court and say, you know, 'the United States is participating with Israel to launch a nuclear missile, satellite that has nuclear material in it, and that nuclear material might land on my house in Albuquerque. They didn't do NEPA. I have standing.' That's what this case is about."

Gillmor: "I understand what you just said, that hypothetical, but that's not his [Wagner's] hypothetical. His hypothetical ... I mean, and you know, his hypothetical is that the world would be made into a, you know, hard iron rock, which is different than 'I might be an unintended casualty of something that's happening half around the world - way around the world, but the person next door wouldn't be.'"

Gillmor said her first task would be to figure out whether she had jurisdiction over whatever was happening at the Large Hadron Collider. "Right now I don't know if it should even be in this courtroom. ... If there's no basis for me to be making a decision about this, I'm not in charge of supervising what the federal government does," she said.

The judge is now considering these issues, and in the meantime she told both sides to cool it with the voluminous filings. She noted that the papers already stacked up to measure more than a foot high. "I don't want any more of these raining declarations that I am receiving in these various filings," she said.

Update for 7:52 p.m. ET Sept. 6: On Friday, the government added to Gillmor's stack (with her go-ahead) by lodging its opposition to the plaintiffs' motion for a default judgment against CERN. As expected, the government said that the court lacked jurisdiction over CERN, and that there was no evidence CERN was served in accordance with international procedure.

The government urged the judge to turn down the plaintiffs' request for an injunction against CERN, saying that their claims of potential injury were based on "unfounded and incredibly speculative doomsday scenarios that are not supported by the scientific evidence but only on plaintiffs' 'expert' opinions that they are not qualified to give."

Update for 11:35 p.m. ET Sept. 12: The hearing on the motion for a default judgment against CERN has been rescheduled for Oct. 14 at the plaintiffs' request.

Past chapters in the doomsday saga:

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Comments

All this talk of a "God" particle makes me a little nervous...
OK, Alan.  Time to take a stand.  What do you think?  Is that machine completely and absolutely safe to operate?  And we're not talking about any "most likely" or "beyond a reasonable doubt" here.  Given what's at stake, the level of assurance has to be 100%.
It would be largely appreciated by many people if the LHC could wait or never collide particles. It wouldn't even be worth the risk, we are talking about billions and billions of lives at stake here.
Well..., we may solve the mystery of what causes black holes. Maybe they were other worlds that turned on their own versions of the Large Hadron Collider and their solar systems were sucked in. Of course, our revelation could be short lived.
This just sounds like a science project from the villain in a comic book.  Other dimensions?  Creating a black hole on the earth?  What guy who's too smart to screw in a light bulb came up with that?  Dr. Evil?  "Hey guy's let's make a miniature black hole on the Earth.  It's completely safe..."  
Reminder:
We have, in past threads, seen the complaints about spending money on this research instead of combating the various world woes.  So no need to pipe in about that here.
What do the plaintiffs here hope to accomplish?  If our judge has power to stop another country why didn't we invoke that power for the Cuban Missle Crisis?  I see what there safety concerns are, but what can our courts do about it.  Issue an injuction then send the FBI over to arrest those bad men if they ignore it?
This is ridiculous. The fact of the matter is that mankind cannot possibly harness enough power to make an earth-destroying black hole. It's simply impossible, and we will not be able to muster such power, if at all, for a very, very, very long time.
I think this lawsuit is kinda stupid and holding up good science. Hawking radiation "proves?" that black holes do radiate energy and decay over time. A hubble picture of two jets leaving the south and north pole of a black hole is more proof. also the black hole in question is being created out of a few heavy atoms, so not much mass is involved hear. thus the black hole will radiate away its energy proportionally to its mass. so a massive black hole will take along time to radiate away, but a black hole created from a few atoms will only last under a second. the new little black hole will not have enough gravity to continue a feeding cycle and will die almost right after birth. this lawsuit is built on fear and ignorance.
the article unlike the lawsuit was good.
Wouldn't it be cool if humans were in fact caught in a time continuum loop whereby we get so advanced that we create the next universe, wiping ours out with the LHC, only to have earth form again and have evolution bring about humans so they can evolve and grow technology only to create the LHC again, over and over thereby creating the alternate universes, not simultaneously but in line.  Kind of like an unsupported circle that spins like a wheel but has a wobble because it can't keep it's perfect 360 form each time around, therefore allowing the variances in alternate realities to exist just not at the same time.
Your tax dollars at work defending science from these nutjobs. Doesn't the Federal government have the power to refuse to allow itself to be sued? And wouldn't this be an ideal circumstance in which to exercise that power?

I think we should sue to stop the Hubble repairs, too. They might reveal something... unexpected! Horrors!
Rich, I'm of the view that it's absolutely safe, but I'm glad to listen to arguments on the other side. The big problem is calling the darn things black holes instead of white holes. I've mentioned Hawking's Q&A on this before, but here are some links on the subject:

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/apr/12/science/sci-hawking12

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/319/5868/1321a

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23509238/

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/physics/news/Panda_news/ulffewk_fibhole_06_03_08.htm

http://www.physicspost.com/physicsforums/topic.asp-ARCHIVE=&TOPIC_ID=9872.htm

Well... don't the cores of blue supergiants like Rigel have operating energies that CERN could not even come close to? They still seem to be around and shining even after several million years.

Also, given the amount of supernovae that have occurred over the millenia, you would think that statistically strangelets, monopoles and other exotic zoo members would have been created (and observed)by now
Hello Alan,

I am thankful for your extensive and balanced coverage of this important issue.  

What is your opinion of Dr. Plaga's "three feasable measures for risk mitigation, at least in the start up phase of LHC", which he concludes "To take such safety measures would not exclude but reduce any remaining risk"[1]

Physics PHD Dr. Rainer Plaga writes:

1. Increase of collision energy by reasonably small factors (say, 2) in one step.  

Currently it is planned to perform the first runs at LHC at an energy more than 5 times higher than previously reached[29]. This might result in the copious production of completely novel states, which production was exponentially suppressed at the previous energies. “Proceeding in small steps” mitigates this risk.

2. No operation in which no or only a very tiny fraction of events are analysed.

Currently it is planned to eventually record and analyse only a fraction of 10−7 8 of all events[34]. This is the equivalent of entering new territory and to be on the lookout only for the interesting but not the potentially dangerous.

3. Safety considerations influence the trigger and operational procedures. Meta stable black holes might not yield very spectacular events, but it seems desirable to ensure that their presence is immediately and reliably detected. An immediate interruption of operation and detailed offline study of the event might be a possible risk mitigating measure.

[1] http://arxiv.org/abs/0808.1415 On the potential catastrophic risk from metastable quantum-black holes produced at particle colliders, Rainer Plaga (August 10, 2008)
James, thank goodness I'm not in charge of collider operations, because all I know is what I read in the papers. CERN has said they want to get up to 5 TeV for commissioning, but it's not clear to me whether that is 5 TeV per beam or 5 for the collisions. Right now, the Tevatron is up to around 1.8 to 2 TeV, so the commissioning goal might be on the order of 2.5 to 3 times as high as the Tevatron. I suspect they won't go immediately to 5 TeV. So that's No. 1. 

I do know there are supposed to be so many events coming out of the run that hardware as well as software triggers are required to cull through the data. It's unavoidable that a lot of data will have to be discarded, but I think the kinds of events that hint at black hole creation will not be discarded. Also, the black holes (or white holes) would not be detected directly, but rather by analyzing the decay products.

Here's what Michelangelo Mangano said about the detection process:

"Q: How would these black holes be detected? I assume that you wouldn’t detect them directly, but you’d detect them through their decay products.

"A: This is true of pretty much every particle that we produce at this accelerator. Even the top quark is not detected directly, because it decays within 10^-24 seconds. What we see are the decay products. It’d be the same for a black hole. It would decay on a time scale that is about a factor of thousands smaller than that of the top quark. The main feature of a black hole decay is that there would be no bias in the particles coming out of the decay.

"The final state would be relatively spherical, with no specific direction. There’d be a uniform distribution, with many highly energetic particles of all different kinds: electrons, muons, quarks, photons. This is something that the typical proton-proton collision would not give rise to. It would be a very distinctive signature."

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/07/02/1180976.aspx

... So I assume that any black hole events would be picked up on pretty quickly. I hope that addresses Nos. 2 and 3. But again, I'm just a poor science writer trying to make sense of a world he never made.  ;-)
They say there is no way of directly measuring the events occuring as this confined energy density happen. Since time itself will be altered as space-time is curved at that microscopic point, it's too bad we don't make clocks that small !

Maybe the local time at the LHC will be altered for ever? Stuck in it's own timewarp?...(not serious of course.)
It takes a lot of simple minds to solve these complex puzzles.  Too much of science involves sticking fingers in light sockets.

Personally, I like atoms just the way they are.  I love life and the current state of things.

We need to rule out the ability of anyone to study this sort of nonsense and to disassemble any facility that makes efforts in these areas.

It is sad the minds that are stuck in these cycles in various labs around the world working on the next great catastrophe.

They need to leave the lab, grab a board and hit some waves...life rocks!
Just to throw this out there. The Paper by Dr. Plaga was reviewed and the results can be found here. http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0808/0808.4087v1.pdf
Ever hear of a place called Chernobyl? The science was so well known and understood that the government that built the reactors didn't build a containment vessel around them knowing nothing could go wrong. Well guess what? The consequences of something going wrong at CERN could have an incalculably larger effect than Chernobyl based on science that is far less understood than a fission reactor. Cross your fingers and hold your breath.
Starter up!
I have to say, as a regular joe with 3 years of college.  This interests me to no end.  Mr. Boyle, I have read some of the links you've provided and even managed to read through the 12 page research paper you linked.  While I don't understand the mathematical equations, I do generally understand what the authors were writing about.  You have provided a great service to those of us who are a little less educated yet still interested.  I hope that great things come from LHC, but realize nothing in life comes without risk.  To all the naysayers, have you ever had a kidney stone found by a CAT scan? I did this year, and I am willing to bet that without the things we've learned from previous colliders, and "radical" thinkers, I would have had to suffer quite a bit longer than I did.  Again, thank you Mr. Boyle, please keep up the good work.
I salute these brave indviduals for standing up and doing whats right. They seem to be the only ones who care about preserving life on Earth. Countless distinguished scientists have agreed that this machine poses GREAT risk to the planet and has the ability to destroy it. Hopefully one of these lawsuits will prevail prior to September 12th and we will be able to continue our lives and give our children the chance to live theirs.

Stop this machine before its too late! Write your congressman, contact the press, tell your friends. If you care about the future of this planet we all must unite and do something!
I  dont trust that collider .I dont think its safe,And wouldnt be messing with nature? I think people around the world should vote or let there govement know how they feel about it first .Before they turn it on.aND ASK IS IT SAFE TO TURN ON AND USE?Also what good it for any way? Or is it another play toy for science to play with?
I am glad to see we have one MSNBC writer that is humble and non partisan.
Alan, because of that, you can be sure that I will read what you write until you can write no more.  Good Stories!!!
Has Hawkins theory ever been proven by solid repeatable scientific experiments? Lets not return to the days of Athenian science were we looked for imperial evidence with just the minds eye. The consequences of this type of pure reason may falter, and unlike the Greeks that mistook elliptical orbits for perfect crystal spheres, ours may turn from a little white lie to something quite different.
Ok, check out my blogs on my myspace.  I explain a lot of different theories about doomsday (Dec. 21, 2012.)  I offer every explanation possible.  The signs are there folks the sun went under a polar shift in feb. 2001, thus causing room for concern.  In the article also on my page it shows that the sun is due for another polar shift in 2012 meaning; the north and south poles switch places.   That being the easiest way to explain it.  The planet earth is also due for a polar shift in 2012.  "When" not "if" this happens.... well read my blog.  You'll get it!!
by the way if not shown my website is www.myspace.com/justinwaddell
Thank you for the informative article Alan.  I for one welcome new science and new developments in the highest-technology realm which I believe will continue to open our doors to what we don't understand or conceptualize at this point.
Sure the scientists at CERN are going to say that it is completely safe.  They have been working for years to build this thing. What scares me is that other scientists that have no involvement are saying that it is dangerous.  When the earth is getting swallowed by a black hole, I guess then we will have our answer.
There Has To Be Destruction For There To Be Creation.

Let Them Play With Things They Have No Idea About...

It Might Be A Stupid Science Experiment Or It Might As Well All End Up In A Catastrophic Scene Like In "Mars Attack" When They Release The "White Pigeon."

On The Other Hand...If We Don't Experiment With Things How 'R' We Going To Find Out Answers?

Aren't You Tired Of Living In A World Where Life Is Based On "99% Is Theories"?

There 'R' Other Things That 'R' Destroying The Planet Every Day...Is Not Like If The World Is In perfect Shape Or Like If The Human Race Has Such A Remarkable Humane/Harmless Mentality Now Days Anyway...

There's Not Much At Stake But A Bunch Of Very Precarious Creatures Playing With Live Wires...But Again. That's Just My Perspective.

I Wish I Was Wrong.
Believing It, Would Only Be To Be Pretending.
how they will control black hole ,when they don't know much about that phenomen?
   100% ACCURACY ETC.
 Bona fide scientists know that 100% accuracy is not possble in the physical world, may be possible in spiritual or philosophical world (realm). All scientists that claim 100% accuracy or demand it expose their scientific ignorance, hence, they are not "bona fide". Therefore, the question arises about where the line should be drawn, 99.9%, 99.99%, 99.999%? The next time you drive your car do you know what the chances are that you won't have a deadly accident. If you want 100%, then you must not drive and in some situations it's as low as 60%; yet, most will still drive. I don't remember exactly the chance that the first astronauts to the Moon would get home safely, but it was no where near even 90%. The probability that the first nuclear bomb blast couldn't start a chain reaction that would consume the Earth was not 100% and, of course could not be in the physical world (especially in view of currently known quantum theory). Had the legalists, including some renown physicists, had their day in court, we might still be fighting WWII. Of course, some will say think of all the Japanese lives that could have been saved, but would not that number have paled in comparison to those, Japanese, and others, lost in pitched battles that might still be going on. O.K. "going on" is an exaggeration. Isn't it amazing that about 20,000 deaths a year due to drunk drivers gets far less concern than the less than 5,000 American soldiers killed in over 5 years in Iraq? All the deaths due to coal miners getting black lung disease mining coal for our electric power plants far out number those ever killed by nuclear reactors, making electricity or whatever, and it seems to be ignored by the legalists who are making nuclear power expansion too expensive. BACK OFF legalists and allow us to save a lot more lives than your legal tactics will ever save.
 Perhaps some number, which has to be less than 100%, could be accepted for a particular situation, but it might be unacceptable for another. Who is to decide. I, certainly, don't think the average (even above average) judge should be making the judgement in most scientific matters. Perhaps several judges, with very high scientific expertise, might manage to get it right, but one judge with little or no such expertise should not be relied upon except to see if the acceptable number has been met or not. Such a judge still needs enough expertise to see if the briefs are true and scientifically accurate and I still don't know if a single judge could do this. Maybe that's why we have 9 members on the U.S. Supreme Court; yet, while they may be able to sort out the legal niceties, they do not have adequate scientific expertise. Again, anyone, judge or otherwise, who wants 100% probability (certainty) is automatically disqualified in scientific matters.
 As for the LHC NOT making things that are capable of "swallowing" the Earth, 99.9999% confidence seems reasonable (suspect it might have even more confidence, but quantum-physics uncertainty keeps me at that number with safety). Whether or not that's enough confidence gets us out of science and my area of expertise; so, I'll leave it to others to chat about it in other areas where they are experts.
 Sorry Alan, but your "absolutely safe" is the same as 100% confidence and outside the realm of science. I, however, share your statement of "FAITH". If you define "absolutely" as at least 99.9999% and close enough to 99.9 followed by an infinity of 9's to satisfy your definition, then you are O.K. again. Remember that 99.9 followed by an infinity of 9's is mathematically equivalent to 100.0 followed by an infinity of 0's. :-)  
Why do half of you people talk like you have quantum physics degrees?
When the courts throw out this lawsuit based on the current arguments, these people will invent some other world ending catastrophy to try to stop this important research.
Hi thanks for an informative article. Just a question I see alot of people on the pushing that it's going to eat the world and all that, but has anyone like hawkings or anything like a science big hitter who's opinions carry any weight come out condemning CERN for their project.
So, all this and no cure for cancer?
If the LHC could create black holes, then we would not exist, since collisions of greater energies happen continuously in the atmosphere.

Fundamental Particles: Electron, Neutron and Proton.
Fundamentalist Particle: Moron.
"CERN has said they want to get up to 5 TeV for commissioning, but it's not clear to me whether that is 5 TeV per beam or 5 for the collisions."

It is 5 TeV per beam:
http://press.web.cern.ch/press/PressReleases/Releases2008/PR06.08E.html
I'd like to stand in the middle of this giant ring and perhaps benefit from it when it gets turned on.

Doesnt that sound like somewhere a superhero a la the hulk could be created?
i know he had the atom bomb, but thats ridiculous, this is much more realistic....

id be more hoping for the kind of powers Jon from the graphic novel "Watchmen" got that hulk powers myself....

Whos with me?!?!
Subjective experience > Objective morality. Ayn Rand loses to Hume.
im so sorry to annoy everyone but im really scared now, i cant sleep wondering what the hell is going to happen on september the 10th, surely if they know it would create a black hole then youd have to get the "go ahead" from everyone on the planet, seriously alan what is going to happen, cos im hearing that a black hole will be made!
Sounds to me like some pretty dangerous stuff those guys are messing around with if you ask me.

Jiff
www.privacy.mx.tc
oh my god ..this is soo stupid you cannot contain a black hole .. even if it's really small ...

maybe somethings are left unknown...

don't you think..?

i don't want to be told how long i have to live for

and even if you do succeed how are you meant to get rid of the black hole ?





The fact of the matter is that we don't have the capability to produce enough energy to experimentally test Planck Energy, let alone create a pinpoint singularity.

CERN is producing antimatter by the nanogram and you yahoos are worried about black holes.  
Alan wrote, "... So I assume that any black hole events would be picked up on pretty quickly."
This assumes decay.  I think James' inquiry is about what if they don't decay, how will we even know they're there.  We have no way to detect them if they're stable.  Philip J. Calamatas put up a comment lining out effects we would see as a MBH grows in one of these threads, I'll see if I can find it and post a link.  But the effects on earth as it's insides are sucked out would be our first indication.  (If MBHs are stable and can eat and can eat fast enough for it to matter.  I'd say no on each.)
This is the concern that's coming to the surface in these blogs.  We probably can't even make a detector, so they (those wanting some better safety assurance) won't be satisfied in that way.  They generally accept the idea that any reaction that would happen in the LHC already happens with cosmic rays, but figure these resultants are always produced with great speed and move away before and yamage is done.  The only thing I can think of that will satisfy them is high energy cosmic ray collisions resulting in near stationary products.  Head on cosmic ray collisions similar in virtually all respects to LHC.  I don't have any kind of stats for that though.  You'd figure it has to have happened close enough to every major body that if stable, consuming MBHs can be produced they have been in a lethal proximity.  Yet the earth and sun still exist.
Anybody know how to develop those numbers?  Or find them done already?  Cosmic ray density, random direction, average number of head ons, etc.
I don't have a problem rattling this cage a little, but if this is an ego battle between scientists, I'm not happy.  I think we need to know this infomation. This is no place for ad hominem attacks.  I have no reason, but my gut tells me to trust these guys.
Why am I paying fo this when my country is in recession and my pay scales keep going down?  It seems a terrible waste of money for something that will be used only a few times.  Is this why we are in recession?
Here it is:
http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/06/16/1146317.aspx
Just cut and paste the above into address bar.  Entry on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 8:15 AM
I have put my faith in science my whole life, and I have faith and trust in the scientists working on this project.  I cannot believe that this project would be going forward with these people knowing or believing that they were putting us all at risk.  I think its time that we try to ignore our inner paranoia about things we don't understand, and allow human progress to be made at understanding these fundemental concepts about our universe.  Those who don't want to know about such things can cover their eyes and ears.  
I say let them use it, if anything happens God will save us right? lol


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