ABOUT COSMIC LOG

Quantum fluctuations in space, science, exploration and other cosmic fields... served up regularly by MSNBC.com science editor Alan Boyle since 2002.

Alan Boyle covers the physical sciences, anthropology, technological innovation and space science and exploration for MSNBC.com. He is a winner of the AAAS Science Journalism Award, the NASW Science-in-Society Award and other honors; a contributor to "A Field Guide for Science Writers"; and a member of the board of the Council for the Advancement of Science Writing.

Check out Boyle's biography or send a message to Cosmic Log via cosmiclog@msnbc.com.



Final countdown for collider

Posted: Monday, August 25, 2008 3:55 PM by Alan Boyle


LHCb Collaboration / CERN
This computerized diagram shows the tracks of subatomic particles moving through
part of the Large Hadron Collider's LHCb detector during this weekend's test.

Europe's CERN particle-physics lab says the countdown to the startup of the world's biggest atom-smasher in two weeks is proceeding "without a hitch."

Well, almost.

CERN says the past weekend's "final test" of the system for sending beams of protons into the Large Hadron Collider's 17-mile-round (27-kilometer-round) ring was successful. During the test, a bunch of protons was sent into the ring's supercooled magnet system and sent about 2 miles (3 kilometers) down the track counterclockwise. That followed up on a test in the clockwise direction two weeks earlier.

"Thanks to a fantastic team, both the clockwise and counterclockwise tests went without a hitch," LHC project leader Lyn Evans said in a news release. "We look forward to a resounding success when we make our first attempt to send a beam all the way around the LHC."


CERN
The green spot shows protons
inside the targeted area during this
weekend's test of the Large
Hadron Collider's counterclockwise
beam synchronization system.

However, James Gillies, CERN's chief spokesman, told me that physicists are planning a do-over of the weekend's beam synchronization test, just to make sure everything is in working order.

"They learned something this weekend, I understand," he said. He didn't have the details, but an online recap of the test indicates that the team had to work through some difficulties with steering the beam and keeping it from dispersing.

In between the beam tests, workers have been checking out the rest of the hardware for the $10 billion particle collider, which is arguably the biggest physics experiment on earth. Gillies said the physicists behind the Compact Muon Solenoid are finishing the installation of their massive detector, which contains twice as much iron as the Eiffel Tower.

Meanwhile, the LHCb detector, which is designed like a telescope to track bits of matter and antimatter, recorded its first hits during the weekend's test. The subatomic particles zooming through the detector's beamline were actually thrown off by proton collisions with a "beam stopper" set up some distance away, Gillies said.

All this activity is taking place about 300 feet (100 meters) underground, inside a tunnel and a series of artificial caverns beneath the Swiss-French border. Despite the hiccups, nothing appears to stand in the way of the LHC's official turn-on, scheduled for 9 a.m. local time (3 a.m. ET) Sept. 10.

Why the big deal?
The Large Hadron Collider represents the science world's latest, greatest attempt to smash its way into the mysteries of the universe: Beams of protons will eventually collide with the energy of two bullet trains - spawning sprays of subatomic debris that are certain to lead to new discoveries.

The discoveries may not lead directly to building a better iPhone, but they could lay the theoretical groundwork for new medical therapies, energy sources or ways of seeing the world - as past particle-physics experiments have done.

One experiment at the LHC, known as ALICE, seeks to re-create the conditions that existed just an instant after the big bang that gave rise to the universe as we know it. LHCb's researchers want to understand why matter won out over antimatter after the creation of the cosmos.

But the LHC's main goal - targeted by the Compact Muon Solenoid as well as the ATLAS detector - is to fill the gaps that currently exist in the Standard Model, the grand theory governing the subatomic structure of the universe. That may mean finding traces of extra dimensions, or a whole new class of supersymmetric particles, or the causes behind dark matter and dark energy.

Filling the scientific gaps would almost certainly include getting a fix on the Higgs boson, which some physicists have dubbed the "God particle." The Higgs is the only particle predicted by the Standard Model that hasn't yet been found, and it could hold the key to understanding why some particles (like protons) have mass while others (like photons) do not. 

The debate over black holes
Then there's the little matter of ultra-microscopic black holes: Detecting such knots of concentrated matter/energy is seen as a bit of a scientific long shot. But the possibility has captured the public attention far more than the Higgs boson, no doubt in part because of a civil lawsuit claiming that such black holes could grow big enough to gobble up our planet.

The legal challenge, which claims the LHC's operators haven't adequately considered the doomsday scenarios, is due to come up in Hawaii federal court on Sept. 2, just a week before the scheduled startup. Arguing on behalf of the U.S. Department of Energy, lawyers from the Justice Department are seeking to have the suit thrown out on narrow legal grounds. They argue, for example, that the case is moot because the federal government has finished its contribution to LHC construction.

I dwelled on the legal back-and-forth last week, but since then there have been these developments:

  • On Friday, Justice Department lawyers filed a brief saying that the plaintiffs in the case, former nuclear safety officer Walter Wagner and Spanish science writer Luis Sancho, missed an Aug. 15 deadline to challenge the government's motion to dismiss the case. As a result, the court should "enter a final judgment terminating this litigation," the federal lawyers said.

  • Wagner has filed a document dated Aug. 20 that says the suit should proceed because the federal government is continuing to fund research on the now-completed LHC. He also addresses other objections from the government and adds some new claims about the potential for a fusion-fueled blow-up, as you can read on Wagner's Web site. Was the document filed in a timely fashion? The government argues that it wasn't, but that's up to the judge to decide.


  • Attorney Martin Kaufman has gotten the court's go-ahead to file an amended friend-of-the-court brief from three prominent physicists - Harvard's Richard Wilson as well as Nobel laureates Sheldon Glashow and Frank Wilczek. The physicists side with the government and say the suit should be thrown out.

Even if the court allows the lawsuit to go forward, the LHC startup will likely go forward as well. CERN's plan calls for the first proton beams to be sent all the way around at relatively low energy in one direction only on Sept. 10, with the testing phase moving on to the first collisions about a month later, Gillies said.

The energy of the collisions will gradually be increased, but even if all goes according to plan, the LHC wouldn't reach full power until next year.

There's lots of good stuff about the Large Hadron Collider on the Internet: CERN offers an hourlong talk by one of its top theoretical physicists, John Ellis, in which he takes note of the blog-driven doomsday debate. On the Symmetry Breaking blog, science writer Glennda Chui points to 1,600 pages' worth of technical documentation for the LHC. Ars Technica refers to the LHC in the context of the search for dark matter. Gail Collins even finds a way to get the LHC as well as the political conventions in the first paragraph of her latest op-ed column for The New York Times. Now that's a collision! 

Update for 9:40 p.m. ET: I've updated this item to reflect the fact that the court docket now includes Wagner's memorandum in opposition to the government's motion for dismissal or summary judgment.

MAIN PAGE

Email this EMAIL THIS

Comments

It's great how some of the biggest idiots in America can come together to debate a topic that almost none of them is remotely qualified to even comment on.  Keep these forums for the stupid alive I say!!!

P.S. To the few intelligent people who have left comments...you have no business being here!!!!!
Is it possible these things are whats knocking over all the construction cranes?  
To anyone wondering about why the EU is funding and building this; It cost $10Bil to create the largest and most usefull scientific experiment ever concieved. That is in Europe. It cost $24Bil to dig a deadly, leaky hole in Boston. YOUR elected officails make this happen. Remember this come November.
i love how people can throw out this all these made up threats that could happen that they heard from the right wing conservatives that if they had their way not even america would have been created.  in about 5-10 years when we start seeing new products introduced to the world because of this i bet they won't be complaining anymore.  now if only we would grow some and finish ours
I think the closed timelike curve they are discussing in the paper Time Machine at the LHC (arXiv:0710.2696v2 [hep-ph]) would be a very localized phenomenon and not universal.  In otherwords the timelike curve would be very small (on the order of femto-seconds as the distances traveled by the ends of the wormholes during their brief lifetime would be very small (comparitively speaking).  I would believe that the wormhole ends act very much like blackholes as they evaporate according to the inverse of the size of the blackhole.  This would mean that the time-machine would be relatively useless for time travel unless one wanted to travel back a few femto-seconds for some reason.  

As for a meta-stable black hole how would one hold together?  The uptake mass would have to at least equal the mass lost due to the radiation output at the event horizon.
Geez people, its just a particle accelerator.  Only thing ive personally observed from beam lines is an increase in radioactivity over many years of use.  Just dont sit on the beam line and have your lunch, and you'll be fine.
Pat Biello, Sicklerville, NJ said,"
Why is it so important the know how the Univers got started? Lets spend that money too develope better means of space travel so we can find another planet to live after the Russia start WW3.

I think he answered his own question, the more we know about how the universe works, the more we can do with it, like space travel.

I'm too young to have experienced it myself, but I'm told that people, somewhat predictably, exhibited the same uneducated, fear-mongering ignorance back when scientists were pioneering the practical applications of nuclear science. I realize we may have been better off without developing 'the bomb', let alone using it.  But the advancement of this planet due to the scientific work done at the time (done at ANY time for that matter) has far exceeded any downside of nuclear application and has consistently shown this kind of ignorant ranting to be just that - ignorant ranting.  I'm not a physicist, but I understand the science behind LHC and the search for the Higgs.  The risk here is kind of like the display of human 'intelligence' contained in most of these posts...yeah, it's there, but in quantities not worth mentioning.
10 billion on science! Wow do you any of have any idea how much money is spent on many other much more worthless pursuits. i.e. capture a small country that has a rumor about weapons of mass destruction. Science only gets the crumbs that are left over it seems.  Education and the environment also get very little over national insecurity concerns.
I realize it's a lot of fun for "people of science" to insult all of us "ignorant" "naysayers" and "brain-dead" individuals as nothing more than Chicken Littles with an active keyboard.  But the reality is, when you dig deeper, you will see CERN's independent, third-party safety reviews are clearly lacking, and are merely set-up to "complement previous studies."  They say there is "no conceivable threat from the LHC."   But many of mankind's most famous tragedies came from "inconceivable threats" which, if those involved only had more imagination, would have seen clearly the threats-- such as icebergs, Chernobyl, and terrorists using aircraft as missles.  

A healthy dialog about risks and rewards of the LHC should be encouraged and embraced -- but instead, CERN is more concerned with demonizing those who want us to move a bit slower examining the ramifications of these experiments.  I think the people of this planet deserve more than a flippant response such as "we're still here aren't we?" when you're dealing with a much, much, much more powerful machine that can create temperatures "100,000 times hotter than the core of the sun" on Earth.  

CERN:  Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.
I think science has done many wonderful feats in ushering us into the 21st Century. However how far will existentialist men go to quench their theories and fantasies of a map to life's hidden secrets. Some things are created not meant for humans to know nor discover but to simply exist as we do. I hope the judgement stands. The answers these men seek carry a heavy risk and price that outweighs the "What If" factor to be tested. God Help Us.
For some to suggest that people wouldn't risk every single man woman and child's life in the name of science is retarded and sheepish. Lives are risked everyday through experimentation. The truth is that no matter how smart these people think they are, we actually have no idea what "could" happen. That's the point of experimentation. It's all theory. The comment that things like this have been going on for years and hasn't effected life as we know it may be true but look at it this way; once you increase the magnitude of something it changes the results. Anyone that claims to know everything that can and will happen is an idiot. I'm not for or against, I just think you tools that get on here and berate people because you're such geniuses should really stop pointing the finger. You're a idiot if you think you know everything and that there are never consequences to seeking the unknown.

My question is, is it possible to submit a simple set of questions to LHC for answers? Something along the lines of:

What is the probability that at full power the magnet used will affect either the earth's magnetic field or affect the earth’s core? If so, to what degree?

What is the chance that stray particles will find their way into the experiment?

What amount of energy may be released once the particles collide? How may it affect the surrounding area?

How likely is it that the magnet or the particles may affect the health of the local populations? (I'm thinking along the lines of how power lines can affect people)

I do feel that most of the answers to the questions won’t be available until after the experiment has been started/completed.

[ALAN ADDS: For the answers to these types of questions, you can check the CERN FAQ pamphlet:

http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/1092437/files/CERN-Brochure-2008-001-Eng.pdf

[The magnets are pretty strong, but I don't believe anyone expects them to have a significant effect on Earth's magnetosphere. Stray particles, as in cosmic rays, do find their way into the experiment. In fact, the two most expensive detectors, CMS and ATLAS, have been picking up cosmic rays for quite some time. The amount of energy for the proton collisions is a maximum of 14 trillion electron volts. For one collision, that's less powerful than clapping your hands together ... but that energy is concentrated into a tiny point. Read the FAQ for an explanation. The experiment is about 330 feet below the surface (33 stories down), so the expectation is that there will be no radiation effect on the surface. No people will be allowed in the tunnel or the detector caverns during a run, due to the radiation risk. That's standard procedure for particle accelerators.]

Sadly, theres a 50/50 chance something could go horribly wrong with this machine. Many distinguished scientists are fighting this thing from starting up because they realize the affects it could have. There are many articles out there written by accreditied doctors and scientists that completely argues the fact that this machine is safe. If I were you, I would keep my children home from school on September 10th and cherish life with them for just a bit longer.  
To the smart people here - I CAN believe so many uninformed people have opinions... they always do, and my belief is that sensationalism runs rampant through the idiots of this world.  Uninformed idiots typically stay that way, and whine about silly things, but the fact of the matter is that all of their uninformed energies never get put towards anything except spreading the sensationalism through other idiots, and it's typically the other idiots who have NO influence in the workings of the world... quite simply put, ignore them!

To the rest of you:  What are you afraid of them finding?  "god" intelligently designed everything, and if "god" intelligently designed particles that are going to swallow us up 5,000ish years after "god" made us, then it's still clearly his will...
"100,000 times hotter than the core of the sun" on Earth
Yes, but for a very small amount of matter.

We already make tempatures on earth that are hotter than the sun. In fact, a simple 1 watt laser can do this.
a quick google:
http://www.laserfx.com/Science/Science4.html
Due to the law of the conservation of energy, the energy density (measure of energy per unit of area) of the laser beam increases as the spot size decreases. This means that the energy of a laser beam can be intensified up to 100,000 times by the focusing action of the eye. A one watt laser beam when focused down to a small spot can produce temperatures higher than the surface temperature of the sun!
Don't sail too far from shore or you will fall off the edge of the Earth.  Don't fly past the speed of sound or your body will implode.  If you detonate an atomic bomb it will start a chain reaction that will burn off the entire atmosphere and kill the whole planet.  Don't fire up the collider or you will create a black hole that will eat the Earth.  

Some things never change.
I would trust the physicists at the CERN particle-physics lab  and similar projects far more than any other source.  Also, since we have the technological capability to explore such theories, I see no reason to restrain progress in the name of fear of the unknown.
Next, I am sure that most, if not all western nations have their fingers in this project.
I agree with Thomas Ashby that “strangelets” (if they exist) are EXTREMELY unlikely to transform normal matter and almost definitely would not spread.  Also, Black Holes are supposed to be extremely dense objects (like burned out stars) the gravitational fields of which are so great that even light cannot escape.  How could mere mortals, at our level of technology, possibly create such a powerful force?
Finally, enough with the doomsday prophecies!  No one can know when the world is going to end unless they are planning on ending it themselves!  The civil lawsuit is likely from obstructionists who feel that the project would question their beliefs, not that they actually think it will destroy the world.
Hey!  Didn't these guys PLAY Half-Life!?
Well , its in the Bible,they will and open the gates of hell. 09? ok hows about 9-9-09 are you ready?  
What if all the other black holes, at the center of nearly every other galaxy in the universe, were created by intelligent lifeforms experimenting with collider's.  Kind of mind blowing heh?
Don't forget Torchwood and the Osterhagen Key...
If you kids don't quit fooling around you're going to break something!
"I told you so!"

One of two sides will be saying this. No one & I stress that - NO ONE knows for sure who will be saying that. To say otherwise one may as well say they know the nature behind everything else grounded around us and that doing this test will fill the gaps. We're still making head way with stem cell research, discovering new species that shed light into our evolution & existence, and waiting on a new President to undo all that has been wrought (can it be done or should we just end it all? I'll take one LHC please!) - and that being said we still have much to learn without using this test/experiment. Yet.

Those executing (har har) the experiment and still standing will cheerfully in all bewildered and enlightened excitement yet in casual bravado utter -"It has come to our conclusion we are still here. Told you so."
Now if it's the other side, those who raise a good point of us not knowing ALL the possible outcomes - I'll have to correct myself - there just might not be anyone left to say "I told you so" but rather some cosmic echo of what once was.

What I don't understand is why such an experiment of uncertain results (cause & effect) isn't up for vote by those who collectively inhabit this blue ball. We might claim territories and fight over who gets what - mine mine mine; but as a whole there should be a say by those who matter - which would be EVERYONE. I know I know - enough with Democracy, but who says a little commom courtesy for neighbors doesn't have weight here?

We can't figure out a common peace to live together but we're willing to find those cosmic answers with existence on the line so to say?


The show however will go on, the test - zap zoom kaboom kablooie - and I hope, pray we're all here to talk and laugh about it (our fear of the unknown, that which humbles us till found & lost) and rejoicing in knowledge we all hope is worth it.

I do wish we could put the test on Mars or somewhere remote, in case we don't hear "I told you so" so that we can at least give a proper applause for those who sought too much a bit too early in the game. I'd be lying if I were to say I'm not curious to see what happens. Playing with what we don't COMPLETELY understand just doesn't sound right, then again that could just be me though in all my goofiness.

In the meantime - I'll be counting how many licks it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie-Pop and hope the LHC doesn't beat me to it.

Till next time (I hope)......waiting in excitement to hear - "Told you so!"
There is also quite a good possibility that NOTHING NEW happens when they reach full power, which would nearly be as meaningful as finding a whole new particle zoo.

As far as "the aether" goes - isn't that just about what the theoretical Higgs field and particles are the new version of? They're everywhere, even denser than neutrinos, and affecting everything that passes by?  Or are we meaning the physical medium that the electroweak forces "wave in", kind of like, umm, a supersymmetrical version of caloric?  Heh...  
Thomas Ashby-
I assure you that some resonable scientists believe in the possibility that strangelets could be made in this experiment. See references below.
"Will relativistic heavy ion colliders destroy our planet?", Phys. Lett. B470:142-148 (1999)
"Strange stars", Astrophys. Journal 310, 261 (1986)
J. Madsen, "Strangelets as cosmic rays beyond the GZK-cutoff", Phys. Rev. Lett. 90:121102 (2003)
J. Madsen, "Strangelet propagation and cosmic ray flux",Phys. Rev. D71, 014026 (2005)
^ J. Madsen, "Intermediate mass strangelets are positively charged", Phys. Rev. Lett. 85 (2000) 4687-4690 (2000)
Alan,
Thank you for your report. I remember when OMNI magazine asked for "Future Bumper Stickers". The one I remember best said "The meek shall inherit the Earth! The rest of us will escape to the stars!" Please hurry up & take me with you!
Let the end come; we have so much more to gain with knowledge than we have to lose - besides, if we all are extinguished, how are we gonna know?
Why are the self-identified "smart people" engaging in ad hominem attacks on anyone raising a legitimate question about this project's potential ill effects? All you see are "idiots", "creationists", etc. Epithets instead of explanations. These people may not know particle physics, but at least they are interested and literate enough to be reading this article! They deserve better than that. In reading these comments, they are not the ones who look ignorant, those who are defending the LHC are the ones who look ignorant. Are they all incapable of countering concerns without insults?
By the way, I support the LHC, but the risk of something bad happening IS NOT ZERO. And you cannot compare this to Columbus, for if he did fall off the edge of the Earth, only he and his expedition would die, not every inhabitant of Madrid, or Europe for that matter.
Anon,
In basic physics we were taught about black holes.  They’re big, scary things to have in the neighbor’s back yard.  We through the term MBH around, people who do understand basic physics see and understand the BH part and, in as much as an understanding of basic physics is concerned, they are rightfully scared.  There is a problem when people come in on an article like this, it is not very educational.  Previous articles have been, and if people knew to go back and read those a lot of those fears would be put to rest.
Second thing [...] is yes, atom smashers have been operating all this time.  Never at the energy levels this is capable of, which is the point of having this one.  We hope to see new stuff come out.  Is everybody comfortable with the idea that the stuff we’ve never seen before will be perfectly safe?  Should everybody be? [...]

Michael Kent,
MBHs evaporating the same way regular black holes do may not be right.  There is an incredibly different dynamic in place.  I’ve seen a lot of allusions to Hawking radiation but haven’t seen anything where the theory has actually been run against a MBH.  That aside, with that different dynamic, I don’t think a MBH, if it can be made, can self sustain.  It would just “pop” back to a sustainable state, no evaporation, almost no time (my thinking).

Darren Stuart,
I don’t think the lawsuit is scaremongering.  I think it’s a valiant effort by some guys who are absolutely off their nut and scared themselves into thinking their fears are justified.  Laughable yes, but sincere.
I also think creationism is quite credible.

Dave,
Maybe the intelligent are the only ones who belong.  Or maybe they belong for the sake of the unqualified idiots.  I think you have this confused with a white paper site.

Todd,
Construction cranes are toppled by Newtonian physics.

RJG,
Yes, it is kind of fun.
The Titanic sank because of impurities in the steel that made it brittle.  Metallurgists didn’t understand that at the time.  Had the steel had its expected strength the Titanic would have been making runs in the ‘60s.  Maybe it would have been “The Love Boat.”  Icebergs, meltdowns and planes as missiles were all open, clearly seen, known threats.  For Chernobyl and 9/11 carelessness and complacency were to blame.
A healthy dialogue is encouraged.  Healthy is not the same as people whining because they won’t accept findings that don’t support their fears.

L. Roux,
Building a city has more magnetic effect where people live than will be felt from the collider.  That just from the metal in the structures and power lines, not even the power itself, so during a blackout.  Neither will create much of a ripple in the magnetosphere.  Like dropping a rock into a stormy sea, well a rolling ocean.  Magnetic lines repel each other, so any powerful magnetism disperses quickly with distance.  It’s all they can do to keep it focused at the site, you get more magnetic disruption from passing cars and solar flares.

Ralph E. said, “[T]heres a 50/50 chance something could go horribly wrong with this machine.
I guess there’s a 50/50 chance I’ll win the lottery.  Either I will or I won’t.

E. Pryor,
The point is they’d have been made elsewhere.  Our experiments don’t come close to nature.  Not yet.  So nature would have made them.  Let’s assume that’s the case.  Maybe our sun has made billions of the little buggers.  Our sun hasn’t transformed into all strangelets.  Logic says that producing strangelets on earth wouldn’t transform earth into strangelets.  As that is what makes strangelets strange his next conclusion is spot on.  Unless dark matter is strange.  Oh, crap.

Pass the syrup.
E Pryor:  Ok.. but spreading like a virus and eating the world?

Also, here is what wiki says in a general way "According to the strange matter hypothesis, strangelets are more stable than nuclei, so nuclei are expected to decay into strangelets. But this process may be extremely slow because there is a large energy barrier to overcome: as the weak interaction starts making a nucleus into a strangelet, the first few strange quarks form strange baryons, such as the Lambda, which are heavy. Only if many conversions occur almost simultaneously will the number of strange quarks reach the critical proportion required to achieve a lower energy state. This is very unlikely to happen, so even if the strange matter hypothesis were correct, nuclei would never be seen to decay to strangelets because their lifetime would be longer than the age of the universe."

Stable nuclei are lower energy states.  Read this in wiki. It addresses all the concerns  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strangelet
If this experiment means that some day with just a "thought" its possible to enjoy "things" than let the "Games Begin!".
For all of those who think there is risk involved, consider this.  Did you know that because of particle physics, and our mathematical understanding of how things work on an atomic and sub atomic level, you can mathematically calculate the provability of falling asleep and your entire body dematerializing, and then re materialize on mars.  This could actually happen because of how atoms behave on a quantum level.
Now, the odds are so remote for this happening, you would have to live a google years for it to happen to you. A google years is 1 with 100 zeros after it.  So there is a risk of this happening to you everyday, but yet, you don't freak out over it.  In science you can not prove that there is 0% chance of anything happening, it is not possible.  You can not prove that 2+2 will always equal 4.  There is a chance that it can equal something else.  Sounds crazy, but that is Typographic Number Theory, or TNT.  These scientists know more about this stuff than most of you will ever know about anything.  To say there is risk is absolutely ignorant and uneducated.  Remember chances of this collider causing a doomsday scenario, is the same as you disappearing and reappearing instantaneously on another planet.  
My birthday is September 10, at least I will have made it another year if this thing does destroy the earth (I really don't think it will).  I don't think there is any way we could ever produce astronomical energy, or make heat 100,000 times the heat of the sun.  That idea is giving us humans way too much credit.  
Pseudoscientific fearmongering.  That should be the Sesame Street word of the day.  The scary part is that it works precisely because so few of us are willing to spend the time to become scientifically literate.  Fear of the unknown is a basic human instinct, but until you actually walk into the unknown and poke it with a stick, you won't ever find out if your fears were justified.  The controversy over this project merely illustrates some of the fundamental flaws in our educational system.

Honestly, I'm far more concerned about whether the people building the LHC are actually capable of the incredible feats of engineering precision required to ensure that it works at all.  I have a sick feeling that the next year or so will be spent working bugs out of the device than testing our fundamental assumptions about the universe.

However, if the LHC does work and does perform up to our expectations and hopes, then the amount of scientific knowledge that it can potentially deliver more than justifies its cost.  Fundamental science ALWAYS pays off in the long term.  $10 billion is a pittance to spend on such a valuable project; it's far less than the amount spent to go to the Moon, and that particular endeavour has returned incalculable benefits to all of Mankind.  You could pay for the LHC with a week's worth of the money spent in Iraq, or by cutting off farm subsidies (something that would also dramatically improve world food supply, FYI).

Lastly, if the LHC should, by the remotest chance, annihilate our planet, I'll rest easy in the knowledge that it'll take all the idiots with it.
I think we should do whatever the smart people say. They are really ,really smart, what could go wrong ?
But if it does go wrong, death will be instantaneous and painless right ? As long as we're not all caught up in stretched time while in the process of dematerializing I'm ok with a little experimentation to advance our knowlege.
Looking at the comments here I weep for the general ignorance of most people.

Let me help you:

Black Holes - Any black holes formed would be tiny. They emit a lot of Hawking radiation and die almost immediately after they have been born. They will also be travelling at incredible speeds, so even if one managed to defy physics and remain in existence, it would be exiting Earth's atmosphere at relative speeds to forever travel in a straight line through space.

Strangelets - Strangelets are almost completely theoretical at this point. If they do exist, they too would exit at great speeds. If they did manage to turn any other matter into strangelets, it would be as they impact them with great velicity, almost assuring all would be expelled from our solar system within minutes.

Anti-Matter - We produce a few grams of the stuff a year. There really is no danger from this. Even if it is produced, it would release it's energy as soon as it contacted any matter. There isn't enough being produced to create a large explosion as some fear.

The reason scientists can't guarantee 100% that nothing bad will happen is because there is an infinitely small chance that matter could collide completely head on and lose all velicity in the process. This is EXTREMELY unlikely, but not 100% unlikely. If this was a black hole it wouldn't matter because the hole would remain within a vacuume within a magnetic bottle 300feet underground. Meaning it would still likely starve. Strangelets would just sit there until we found a way to eject them (more high speed bombardment). Anti Matter would (again) release it's energy as soon as it came out of the bottle, causeing little or no damage.

So please educate yourself. Stop letting others fill you with fear, and trust that 1200 CERN scientists are no more willing to end their own collective lives with a risky "end of world" scenario than you are.
Some of the comments here just reflect the fact that the average US citizen believes more in science fiction than in science fact.  The growing ignorance of the US is profoundly disturbing.  Science has been largely responsible for our modern standard of living as well as our national defense (It can easily be argued that science and physics in particular won WWII).  For some, a return to the dark ages of fear and superstition has great appeal, for if the masses are ignorant they are easily led and mislead.  I fear for my country as ignorance is seemingly being embraced by more and more each day.  Learning and knowledge is hard, ignorance is easy.
I think, you know, like we could get along with the black holes should the arrise. Be nice to them. Dont offend them. Be diplomatic, and maybe they will stay small and not gobble up too much matter.
If we could train them, we could domesticate them and use them to solve the worlds trash problem.
Going even further, we could offer negative-mass burials, building demolition, and Storm and Hurricane Removal.
Im all for it.
Seems to be a bunch of fuss over nothing.  If the world ends when they fire this thing up what does it matter?  You won't be around to clean up the mess, but if it works like they say it will and discoveries are made that benefit humankind, turn it on!

I could be wrong (usually am) but the same basic thing was said concerning nuclear explosions.  Why does the chain reaction stop?  I sure don't know but hundreds of bombs have been tested and every one stopped exploding.  We're still here.
 After reading these opinions, I see the fine line between extraordinary accomplishment and the Salem witchhunts is alive and well. Even in the scientific world we have no shortage of arm chair quarterbacks except this time they have lawyers. So sad.
Ok, after reading all the 'almost logic' and 'bozo', 'believers' and 'atheists', 'scientists' and 'plain ORDINARY people'...& so on comments... primary opinion of onself kinda gets lost between the lines. and it's kind of interesting how we use and confuse the concepts of scientific and Creationist 'Facts'- let's face it...we're all confused and those who made fun of other's opinions are only afraid of 'something actually going wrong', and they have every reason to be! I mean, haven't we all studied (and agreed) with Newton's third law (in basic physics):'To every action there's an equal and OPPOSITE reaction' back in sixth grade??? who knows what type of reaction this LHC thing would produce!! Yet, we can't just lay aside something people are suddenly afraid of after being theriorized, observed, tested over and over and over for many years, then simply throw out the window like nothing!THAT'S PURE INSULT! besides, they've already invested 10 billion... 10 BILLION PEOPLE! Throw into waste just because a few minds were afraid of expanding their view of science!?! I mean, it's like wanting to open the frist Coke ever made, but yet afraid it would explode at your face and cause injuries cuz you know it's being pressurly filled!!! ...what a different world it would have been if they used that money to solve world's major problems, though...
i say...(don't wanna say it though)give the LHC a chance to 'quarterly' function and see what would happen. The consequences of the experiment (if worse than little that might occur) are the brainiacs' to bear and held accountable to. Besides, it would be their losses and only proving them 'people with fantasies (most importantly WRONG)', which i think is 'unlikely' to occur. If it does, then this message goes to them...'YOU DID NOTHING BUT MADE INCREDIBLE, HUGE FOOLS OF YOURSELVES.' Otherwise, abort the experiment, pay back the money for better use and save yoursevles from mockery!
Athanasius,
The “attacks” are because the “idiots” are raising the question for the umpteenth time.  Unfortunately, some of them don’t realize it.  This article amounts to nothing more than an update in an ongoing series.  The same legitimate questions keep coming up.  The same stupid questions keep coming up as well.  I haven’t really been paying much attention, but would guess that the real attacks come against the people that raise a question without even reading the comments for the article they’re commenting on and their question has already been addressed.  Nothing left then but to address the commenter.  The “self identified ‘smart people’” you refer to have probably been involved in this discussion for months at least and keep seeing the same drivel over and over.  Stupidity, laziness and repetition can wear smart people down.
I agree with you, though.  Just don’t see a reasonable way around it.  There are a few thousand comments to wade through in past articles.  I wouldn’t ask the casually interested to read them all before posting a comment.  I’ve gotten out of some discussions because postings blew up from 30 or so when I came in then over a weekend 450.  I’d at least want posters to read the comments attached to the article.

For those who say that we would have already seen the sun (that acts as a supercollider) turn into "strange matter" already if it were possible consider this:

(1)Large atoms (like Lead) do not collide in nature at LHC energies, not even in the Sun, especially since there are no large atoms in the core of the Sun. Therefore the Sun could not produce Strangelets.
(2)It is true that cosmic rays are more energetic than the LHC- so why havent cosmic rays converted Earth into Strange Matter? It is because the cosmic rays that hit earth pass through at nearly the speed of light. Strangelets produced by cosmic rays would also pass at near light speeds.  The strangelets made in the lab will be stationary relative to the lab and could cause considerable havoc especially since it could not escape the Earth's gravity.
(3) Why hasn't the strangelets converted the whole universe yet? It just about has, if it can be proven that "dark matter" is actually made of strange matter.
Most of our universe is made of "dark matter", or matter that can only be observed through it's gravitational pull. This is a type of matter that is fundamentally different than ordinary matter.
(3) Micro-black holes would not evaporate. Hawking himself said he was wrong about that. The black hole would be stuck, unable to escape Earth's gravitational pull and possible steal electrons from nearby atoms and enlarge.
(4) Strange matter is more stable than ordinary matter and converts the matter around it into stange matter.
(5) someone stated that it would be extremely slow for strange matter to decay because of the large energy barrier. That is true, however the energy in the LHC would be the energy to overcome the barrier. The NATURAL decay of nuclear matter into quark matter would take until the sun burns out. But the conditions of the LHC allow the energy barrier to be overcome.

Even if it does not happen on Sept 10, it may happen another time as long as that thing is operational. I hope that the science of strange matter is wrong though and that the CERN scientists are right about the danger.

[ALAN ADDS: I'll leave others to continue the discussion about strange matter, but on the issue of particle-scale black holes, I don't think Stephen Hawking has changed his mind about Hawking radiation. I've linked to this material before, but just to bring people up to speed, here's how Hawking handled the topic in a Q&A at Caltech in April, as reported by the Los Angeles Times:

[Q: According to general relativity, white holes, the opposite of black holes, which spew matter into the universe, can exist. But we’ve never found them. What would we see with our telescopes if we did?

[A: When black holes are large, things fall in. but they give off very little Hawking radiation. So they are essentially black. But when they are very small they radiate more than they accrete. So they are essentially white. Black and white holes are the same, just with different boundary conditions. If the boundary conditions are that particles are going in, but nothing is coming out, we call it a black hole. On the other hand, if the boundary conditions are that particles are going out but nothing is coming in, we call it a white hole.

[Q: If black holes are created in the Large Hadron Collider, will we be in danger of getting eaten up by them?

[This question refers to the construction outside Geneva, Switzerland, of the world’s most powerful collider, which is expected to begin operations this summer. Some skeptics fear it will generate such powerful energies that it could create mini-black holes.

[A: The LHC is absolutely safe. There is no danger that collisions between particles at the LHC will cause a rip in space-time and destroy the universe. Particles from collisions far greater than those in the LHC occur all the time in cosmic rays, but nothing terrible happens.]

Alan,

I think lots of physicists don't believe in black holes "evaporating", and that "Hawking radiation" is not a good theory. Unfortunately, it is one of the theories that the CERN scientists are using to say that the collider is safe. Hawking has been wrong many times before. Einstein's theories require a black hole to grow in size, not evaporate. Who are you going to believe- Einstein (E=MC2) or Hawking? I am not saying to totally scrap the effort, but to slow it down and think, why rush? If Hawking is wrong, on Sept 10 or at another time, a black hole might form, enlarge, and eventually destroy us. There is a great probability of black holes being formed from this and if Hawking is wrong, we are toast.
I agree with E. Pryor. The fact is, the justification most scientists are giving for this machine being safe is COMPLETELY irrelevant. They claim that because what this experiment does happens in space, its safe. WRONG. They fail to take into account that the conditions in space are completely different from conditions here. The energies that will be produced at the LHC are far greater then what is produced in space AND are produced under a completely different environment.

Many reputable scientists agree that the odds that this could lead to catastrophe are as high as 2 to 1! This monstrosity must be stopped before its too late!
E. Pryor,
Stars make large atoms.  That's where most large atoms come from.  There are huge, hot, fast burners, there are small, cool, slow burners, there are stars in between.  It is safe to assume that there are higher energy collisions all the time, to the point that it's ridiculous to say they don't happen.  If strangelets were produced then evetually at least a few would come to rest in the star that produced them, it's like firing a bullet into BBs.  If strangelets exist, and pose the danger you suggest, there'd be no novas.  There are novas.  So don't worry.
As with the Manhattan Project, I expect the expected perpetual chain reaction will again not happen due to Nature's natural dampening mechanisms and, as with the Manhattan Project, I expect the researchers will again pull the trigger and then express profound remorse for what they have unleashed.
From what I know about how large atoms are made, they are only made when stars go supernova, not when they are active like our sun is. The energies are too great in the core. I think there is only hydrogen and helium at the core of a star.
  WHY WORRY ABOUT THE LHC?
 Postcards on Cape Cod had an elderly fisherman in a nor'wester saying "I've had many troubles, but most of them never happened."
 For those who believe in a benevolent God, one is inclined to reply "O ye of little faith" to worriers about the LHC.
 For those who believe in a malevolent God, the LHC isn't anywhere malevolent enough for such a God.
 For those who don't believe in God, what difference does it make, no purpose (all a matter of chance) no pain. (If one believes that there is purpose, not all just a matter of chance, one may be placed in the benevolent God group if "purpose" is taken as a good.) Does "purpose" guarantee God? Depends on your definitions of "purpose" and "God", but a universe with "purpose" (intelligence too?) can lead one to a belief in "God". One could, also, say that making "chance" the source of everything smacks of making "chance" a god of sorts. There does seem to be a problem with associating chance with a God that does not arise when associating purpose with a God when common defintions are used.
 WHY WORRY, ENJOYING IS MORE FUN. PURPOSE MAY INCLUDE MEANING, MAKING MORE ENJOYMENT. ENJOY! :-)



 


SEND A COMMENT

PLEASE READ: All comments must be approved before appearing in the thread; time and space constraints prevent all comments from appearing. We will only approve comments that are directly related to the blog, use appropriate language and are not attacking the comments of others.

Message (please, no HTML tags. Web addresses will be hyperlinked):

TRACKBACKS

Trackbacks are links to weblogs that reference this post. Like comments, trackbacks do not appear until approved by us. The trackback URL for this post is: http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/trackback.aspx?PostID=1290475

Latest Tech & Science News

Syndicate This Site

Add Cosmic Log to your news reader:
live.com xml
myyahoo msn
bloglines newsgator
google