ABOUT COSMIC LOG

Quantum fluctuations in space, science, exploration and other cosmic fields... served up regularly by MSNBC.com science editor Alan Boyle since 2002.

Alan Boyle covers the physical sciences, anthropology, technological innovation and space science and exploration for MSNBC.com. He is a winner of the AAAS Science Journalism Award, the NASW Science-in-Society Award and other honors; a contributor to "A Field Guide for Science Writers"; and a member of the board of the Council for the Advancement of Science Writing.

Check out Boyle's biography or send a message to Cosmic Log via cosmiclog@msnbc.com.



Final countdown for collider

Posted: Monday, August 25, 2008 3:55 PM by Alan Boyle


LHCb Collaboration / CERN
This computerized diagram shows the tracks of subatomic particles moving through
part of the Large Hadron Collider's LHCb detector during this weekend's test.

Europe's CERN particle-physics lab says the countdown to the startup of the world's biggest atom-smasher in two weeks is proceeding "without a hitch."

Well, almost.

CERN says the past weekend's "final test" of the system for sending beams of protons into the Large Hadron Collider's 17-mile-round (27-kilometer-round) ring was successful. During the test, a bunch of protons was sent into the ring's supercooled magnet system and sent about 2 miles (3 kilometers) down the track counterclockwise. That followed up on a test in the clockwise direction two weeks earlier.

"Thanks to a fantastic team, both the clockwise and counterclockwise tests went without a hitch," LHC project leader Lyn Evans said in a news release. "We look forward to a resounding success when we make our first attempt to send a beam all the way around the LHC."


CERN
The green spot shows protons
inside the targeted area during this
weekend's test of the Large
Hadron Collider's counterclockwise
beam synchronization system.

However, James Gillies, CERN's chief spokesman, told me that physicists are planning a do-over of the weekend's beam synchronization test, just to make sure everything is in working order.

"They learned something this weekend, I understand," he said. He didn't have the details, but an online recap of the test indicates that the team had to work through some difficulties with steering the beam and keeping it from dispersing.

In between the beam tests, workers have been checking out the rest of the hardware for the $10 billion particle collider, which is arguably the biggest physics experiment on earth. Gillies said the physicists behind the Compact Muon Solenoid are finishing the installation of their massive detector, which contains twice as much iron as the Eiffel Tower.

Meanwhile, the LHCb detector, which is designed like a telescope to track bits of matter and antimatter, recorded its first hits during the weekend's test. The subatomic particles zooming through the detector's beamline were actually thrown off by proton collisions with a "beam stopper" set up some distance away, Gillies said.

All this activity is taking place about 300 feet (100 meters) underground, inside a tunnel and a series of artificial caverns beneath the Swiss-French border. Despite the hiccups, nothing appears to stand in the way of the LHC's official turn-on, scheduled for 9 a.m. local time (3 a.m. ET) Sept. 10.

Why the big deal?
The Large Hadron Collider represents the science world's latest, greatest attempt to smash its way into the mysteries of the universe: Beams of protons will eventually collide with the energy of two bullet trains - spawning sprays of subatomic debris that are certain to lead to new discoveries.

The discoveries may not lead directly to building a better iPhone, but they could lay the theoretical groundwork for new medical therapies, energy sources or ways of seeing the world - as past particle-physics experiments have done.

One experiment at the LHC, known as ALICE, seeks to re-create the conditions that existed just an instant after the big bang that gave rise to the universe as we know it. LHCb's researchers want to understand why matter won out over antimatter after the creation of the cosmos.

But the LHC's main goal - targeted by the Compact Muon Solenoid as well as the ATLAS detector - is to fill the gaps that currently exist in the Standard Model, the grand theory governing the subatomic structure of the universe. That may mean finding traces of extra dimensions, or a whole new class of supersymmetric particles, or the causes behind dark matter and dark energy.

Filling the scientific gaps would almost certainly include getting a fix on the Higgs boson, which some physicists have dubbed the "God particle." The Higgs is the only particle predicted by the Standard Model that hasn't yet been found, and it could hold the key to understanding why some particles (like protons) have mass while others (like photons) do not. 

The debate over black holes
Then there's the little matter of ultra-microscopic black holes: Detecting such knots of concentrated matter/energy is seen as a bit of a scientific long shot. But the possibility has captured the public attention far more than the Higgs boson, no doubt in part because of a civil lawsuit claiming that such black holes could grow big enough to gobble up our planet.

The legal challenge, which claims the LHC's operators haven't adequately considered the doomsday scenarios, is due to come up in Hawaii federal court on Sept. 2, just a week before the scheduled startup. Arguing on behalf of the U.S. Department of Energy, lawyers from the Justice Department are seeking to have the suit thrown out on narrow legal grounds. They argue, for example, that the case is moot because the federal government has finished its contribution to LHC construction.

I dwelled on the legal back-and-forth last week, but since then there have been these developments:

  • On Friday, Justice Department lawyers filed a brief saying that the plaintiffs in the case, former nuclear safety officer Walter Wagner and Spanish science writer Luis Sancho, missed an Aug. 15 deadline to challenge the government's motion to dismiss the case. As a result, the court should "enter a final judgment terminating this litigation," the federal lawyers said.

  • Wagner has filed a document dated Aug. 20 that says the suit should proceed because the federal government is continuing to fund research on the now-completed LHC. He also addresses other objections from the government and adds some new claims about the potential for a fusion-fueled blow-up, as you can read on Wagner's Web site. Was the document filed in a timely fashion? The government argues that it wasn't, but that's up to the judge to decide.


  • Attorney Martin Kaufman has gotten the court's go-ahead to file an amended friend-of-the-court brief from three prominent physicists - Harvard's Richard Wilson as well as Nobel laureates Sheldon Glashow and Frank Wilczek. The physicists side with the government and say the suit should be thrown out.

Even if the court allows the lawsuit to go forward, the LHC startup will likely go forward as well. CERN's plan calls for the first proton beams to be sent all the way around at relatively low energy in one direction only on Sept. 10, with the testing phase moving on to the first collisions about a month later, Gillies said.

The energy of the collisions will gradually be increased, but even if all goes according to plan, the LHC wouldn't reach full power until next year.

There's lots of good stuff about the Large Hadron Collider on the Internet: CERN offers an hourlong talk by one of its top theoretical physicists, John Ellis, in which he takes note of the blog-driven doomsday debate. On the Symmetry Breaking blog, science writer Glennda Chui points to 1,600 pages' worth of technical documentation for the LHC. Ars Technica refers to the LHC in the context of the search for dark matter. Gail Collins even finds a way to get the LHC as well as the political conventions in the first paragraph of her latest op-ed column for The New York Times. Now that's a collision! 

Update for 9:40 p.m. ET: I've updated this item to reflect the fact that the court docket now includes Wagner's memorandum in opposition to the government's motion for dismissal or summary judgment.

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Comments

let them make the black hole, then we can throw our garbage into it
Black holes are not the only possible catastrophic outcome of this experiment. A by-product particle called a "strangelet" could possibly be formed, and could possibly integrage into ordinary matter. These particles could then change the matter around them into "strange matter" in a chain reaction until the entire planet is uninhabitable. These people are crazy to risk the entire planet for an expiriment.
It's exciting to see this come to fruition, and that the concerns of those who fear the unknown won't stop us from learning answers to some really big questions.  If this isn't the purpose to human existence, then I don't know what is.
This sounds exactly like what I read in "Angels and Demon" by Dan Brown.  Did anybody else read that book?  What if the highly toxic "anti-matter" that is created in the book comes into existence?  What about the black hole possibilities?  Trying to find the "God" particle.....do these people REALLY know what they are doing??
I looked through the document posted by Wagner, and found this:

<quote> In examining the affidavits, the court will note that there is a triable issue of material fact as to whether the LHC will likely produce disastrous waste products, as alleged by plaintiffs, or whether such outcome is “unlikely”, as alleged by defendants. <endquote>

The use of the word "unlikely" by the defendants is more than a bit unsettling to me.  Simple risk analysis would seem to indicate that an outcome that would result in the end of existence should have a risk of exactly zero.  And nobody seems to want to say the risk is exactly zero.

What I'd like to see, in laymans terms, is something a bit more comforting and definitive than just "trust me on this".
Congratulations to the LHC team!  These people are doers, while the rest of us, including those attention-seeking lawsuit bringers, are mere talkers and do-littles.  We could all learn a lot from the LHC folks and people like them!

Hey USA!  Bring high-energy physics back to the American shores!  Restart the Superconducting Super Collider project and make America a leader once again!
OK , this is a magnet that has the most powerful pull developed by man . earth"s own magnetic sheild is our worlds protector . if you take two magnets an put them end to end . a force of the two i have either is so strong i cannot pull them apart or push together . either way this , this will have an impact on our earths own axis.
pulling at satellites and objects from space could also be that a slightest magnetic pull could lure an asteroid into out directions . remember , this has a
measurable pull 7 miles higher than the other accumalators known . what about earths core ? solid iron that will react in a magnetic force that the core also uses to keep our planet intacted .
sorry . this is one bad apple ready to drop .  
Technological singularity here we come!

Ahhh - in all seriousness - thank you, Alan, for your continued, fantastic coverage of CERN and the LHC.

Wonderful news!

Fingers crossed!
I wanna know if running the LHC at full power is going to destroy the Earth. Because if it is, to heck with making contributions to my 401k!
I think this would be a fitting and timely end to it all.
Not the lawsuit , the planet.
I advocate protection of all martian fossils ( previous life ) because when they create the "thing that should not be" and they are instantly unable to put the genie back in the bottle , Mars fossils will be harmed of course.
The LHC people are going to prevent us from knowing about life elsewhere.
This is sarcasm of course.
But, its easy to imagine a planet that evolved to the point of destroying itself in a lusty quest for knowlege, instead of some all out war.
We know what atomic weapons will do, and we know their ranges and strengths.
We do not know what the LHC program will produce.
Now thats scary stuff... If they build it, they sure in the hell are going to use it for all its worth!
suspense from the most abstract concept known to man ,
woot ! fun fun
It's fascinating to consider the philosophical, as well as the scientific impact the discoveries made in this collider are likely to have.  Beyond the praticial application of new knowledge, it's fun to consider the ways that scientific knowledge changes the way we see the universe.  Check out the article below for some interesting ideas on this:

http://www.strangelegacy.com/2008/05/01/socrates-meets-quantum-physics/
the sky is falling!
the sky is falling!
Not that ANY of this matters, we're all going fo die December 21, 2012.
AND The war in Iraq IS actually armageddon.
Oh, and we found Bigfoot in Alabama.

"'Tis a sad state of affairs when small minds can raise such a ruckus."
I am still wrestling with how gravity is caused by a mass distoring the time-space continuim. Now they are adding to my mental burden with matter - anti matter, other dimensions, dark matter and energy, the "God" particle and supersymetrical particles.
Hooray for science! History has been a jealous mistress when noting the ignorance of humankind in seeking scientific truths. When Galileo stated that the earth was not the center of the universe, he was threatened with death. The Wright brothers were ridiculed and told man would never fly. And here we stand on the cusp of discoveries beyond our wildest imagination, an opportunity to see into the very distant past to find answers that are crucial to our existence and once again science has to justify it's cause. It spends more energy and time fighting ignorance than it does in moving beyond it. The same thing can be said about stem cell research. That is another subject for another posting.
Future generations will peer back this period of their being and record that as a rule and more times than not, we allowed prejudice, ignorance and lack of vision to be our guide. My, how some things never change.

sounds like a waste of money to me
As I like to make informed decisions on this issue, I took time out to watch the hour-long talk by Mr. John Ellis-- and, again, I came away much more concerned about the LHC than ever before.    Here you have one of CERN's top scientists actively taking cheap pot shots at those who question the safety of this contraption.  Mr. Ellis went so far as claiming that those who raise safety issues are only doing it to make a quick buck.  His arrogance and tunnel vision "group think" is profoundly disturbing and dangerous.    Operators of a machine that creates temperatures "100,000 times hotter than the core of the sun" right over in Switzerland  deserve to give the people of this planet a deeper, more serious look into ALL conceivable dangers by UNBIASED third-party scientists-- but instead, they only offer up condescending rhetoric and talking points.  It's shameful, really.      

Hat's off, by the way, to Mr. Boyle/MSNBC for continuing to look into this important issue.  
The Theory of Constraints may apply to this lawsuit.

Convergence
The first principle: Convergence, also called "Inherent Simplicity" states that "The more complex a system is to describe, the simpler it is to manage." Or that the more interconnected a system is the fewer degrees of freedom it has, and consequently the fewer points must be touched (managed) to impact the whole system. A corollary of this principle is that every organization has at least one constraint active in any given point of time (otherwise it would achieve infinite performance relative to its goal). The more complex and interconnected the organization is the lower the number of constraints it will have.

Consistency
The second principle: Consistency, also called "There are No Conflicts in Nature" states that "If two interpretations of a natural phenomenon are in conflict, one or possibly both must be wrong". That is, when in an organization with a common goal, two parts are in conflict (or in a dilemma) this means that the reasoning that led to the conflict must contain at least one flawed assumption.

Respect
The third principle: Respect, also called "People are not Stupid" states that "Even when people do things that seem stupid they have a reason for that behavior". In other words, this principle is stating that people are not inherently bad.
Thanks very much for the report Alan!  Twice as much steel as the Eiffel tower eh??  You know that is what I remember most from your visit and home movies you made... how absolutely massive those machines really are... I would have thought table top size but to see there were as tall as a five story buidling was just amazing!  The Europeans are leading the world in so many fields it's sometimes hare to keep up.  I give them credit where credit is certainly overdue!  I was just looking at a photo of the Areane V rocket and wondering if they've had many successes in the last two years since I kept track...  I know they had a faiure or two early on but a massive rocket like that can really help the world with all the massive communications and earth- and heaven-observing satilites they launch!  Still lots to discover in particle physics...  Will this new machine be able to find out what Sandies Z-machine discovered when it released something like 7 times more energy than they but in when they fused a thin wire of Iron???  Maybe not directly, but something in that experiement hinted at so much more we don't know in the subatomic relm!  Good Luck!  Hey, can we buy those guys some donuts?  I once did that for the guys that built the New Binocular Telescope down in AZ :)  They loved it!

Chris  
Just thought you would enjoy this National Geographic video I clipped from an hour long show.

http://democurmudgeon.blogspot.com/search?q=atom+smasher
The problem with this test is that it is about 2 to 3 thousand years too early in the course of Human civilization. There is simply too much that is still not yet known about the nature of the universe, dark matter, and black holes to allow for such a risky experiment. Noone really knows for certain that all the possible outcomes of this experiment will exclude the releases of microscopic black holes...we just don't know. And given the consequences....it just makes you wonder " Are we Humans that crazy...in our desperate search for knowledge and energy that we are willing to risk the destruction of the entire universe or planet earth....I mean..really...?
I wasn't aware that the federal government was funding overseas projects. I am curious as to whether or not the overseas government funded the particle accelerators located on American soil. Are American scientists going to get equal time or access to the new collider?

 At one point there was talk of building a new collider here but it never developed ... was that because of a lack of funding by the federal government?
 It bothers me just a little to observe our "high tech" and now our science leaving our nation....if this is a correct deduction.
Interestingly enough, they really dont know what the result will be from this experiment. There is a opportunity to learn from this, however; the results could be catastophic. " NO GUTS. NO GLORY!
some,including myself do not totally understand the purpose of this machine. maybe if you came down a few levels, this would make more sense to common people. all anyone may say is black holes,atomic malfunctions.english
Dear JRB: Thanks for reminding me about the purpose of the machine... Here's what I wrote a couple of weeks ago  on that subject (You'll find this as a comment on http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/08/07/1252902.aspx):


Over the past 70 years or so, physicists have been smashing atoms and subatomic particles together to study what makes them tick. The analogy has been made to shooting at a nerf ball with a BB gun, and trying to figure out what's inside the nerf ball by seeing how the BBs are deflected and what gets knocked loose.

These particle colliders have been operating at higher and higher energies, and they've been quite useful ... not only because they reveal what we're made of (for example, the discovery of quarks, etc.) but also because the beams have real-world applications (treating cancer, developing stronger materials, mapping internal organs).

The Large Hadron Collider ("hadron" refers to any particle that contains quarks) will be by far the most powerful particle collider to date, achieving energies seven times as high as the previous champion (the Tevatron in Illinois). It's important to remember that collisions far more energetic occur in outer space all the time. You could think of the LHC as the best artificial cosmic-ray simulator we've been able to come up with so far.

So what will it find? We'll go into that in much more depth in a couple of weeks, but in brief, physicists hope to answer some of the puzzling questions that have been unanswerable until now. For example, based on our current understanding of gravity, we know that all the matter we can see is only about 10 percent of all the matter in the universe. Scientists believe the other 90 percent is "dark matter," which may consist of exotic particles that zip through us all the time but have never been detected. The LHC could detect the signatures of such dark matter particles.

Another question has to do with antimatter. Theorists have said that equal parts of matter and antimatter arose in the big bang that gave rise to the universe as we know it ... but theoretically, those equal parts should have annihilated themselves and resulted in pure energy. There must have been something about antimatter that gave it a disadvantage and led to the fact that we hardly ever see antimatter in nature. One of the LHC experiments, LHCb, will address that conundrum.

Another LHC experiment, called ALICE, will seek to re-create the conditions that existed just after the big bang and study the plasma (or fluid) that made up all that was at that time.

Then there's the Higgs boson. As I mentioned above, it's the last particle predicted by the Standard Model that hasn't yet been detected. It is thought to be associated with a field that determines which particles will have mass (like protons) and which particles won't (like photons). It's so important to the way the world works that it's been called the "God Particle."

Theorist John Ellis told me that the Higgs is the "door" leading to new physics that we can't really guess about right now. Determining its characteristics could lead physicists beyond the brick wall they're facing on several fronts.

There are also way-out ideas: If the universe contains extra unseen dimensions, as some theorists have said, the LHC could create microscopic knots of energy that have been dubbed "mini-black holes" (virtually all physicists say they would disappear instantaneously). Some researchers claim that the LHC could create small closed timelike curves ... essentially, microscopic wormholes or time machines. Most physicists say that's pretty much science fiction, but there has been at least one paper written up about the idea:

http://arxiv.org/abs/0710.2696

As far as real-world applications ... well, that can't be predicted right now. But past advances in high-energy physics and engineering have led to new ways to see the universe (like space telescopes sensitive to various wavelengths) and new devices (like PET scanners and MRI scanners in hospitals). The engineering insights gained from the LHC could help other scientists tame fusion power, or discover entirely new sources of energy, or come up with new types of materials or sensors.

We'll delve into this a lot more in the coming weeks, but I did want to give folks a sense of why the LHC is important.

If you want to click through a presentation that explains particle physics step by step, you can check out the Particle Adventure:

http://particleadventure.org/frameless/startstandard.html
The fact of the matter is, there IS a chance.......a relatively BIG chance.....that this thing could destroy the world. On September 10th, say goodbye to all of those you love. I'm glad I don't have children, and feel sorry for those who do. After the 10th, after we destroy ourselves, our children have no future. If you WANT to have a future for yourselves and loved ones, STOP THIS NOW.
Why is it so important the know how the Univers got started? Lets spend that money too develope better means of space travel so we can find another planet to live after the Russia start WW3.
The energies reached in the LHC still won't equal those of the most energetic cosmic rays to hit the atmosphere.  If those haven't destroyed the Earth, in one way or another, in 4.5 billion years, it is unlikely that the less powerful collisions we produce will do so.
Afraidofthebrainiacs,
Do I understand this correctly?  You base your fears on the work of Dan Brown.  I’m sure you’ll tell me the very notion is ridiculous, it’s just that that’s what it looked like when I read your comment.

Rich,
Do you go out and get a hamburger?  Do you know the odds of dying from it?  It’s just a personal death, not an everybody death, but even a merely, just, only personal death seems more than trivial if you’re the person.  Or how about buy lettuce, or grapes, or drive (remember the other drivers), or …  With the amount of risk we willingly, gleefully put ourselves in each day it is ludicrous that people would be fearfully opposed based on a risk that is ridiculous just because they personally don’t understand something that most of them are not capable of understanding.  “Trust me on this” sometimes means “there is no way I can explain this to you and make you understand.”  They’ve made the explanations in science speak if you don’t want to just “trust them.”  That’s more a general rant, not a rant at you, just attached to your question.
And in layman’s terms, it is “unlikely” that I will be squished by a giant stepping on me tomorrow.

Victim of Ury wrote, “this has a
measurable pull 7 miles higher than the other accumalators known.”
???

Russ Reed,
A quantum bomb.  Wow!  Megatons are for wimps.  But really, we wouldn’t use advanced technology to build weapons.  Not us.

Lawrence Wasserman,
The fact that you can have that burden says something.  And gravity is easy.  When these two, it’s when some stuff, all this matter kind of…  Crap, I don’t know either.  Oh, Advil helps.

Jrb,
The machine will speed up protons, and later lead ions, to near the speed of light as they get pushed around the circle by magnets.  Layman’s terms, think merry-go-round, a lot of little pushes making it go faster and faster.  One stream will go one direction, another the other direction.  The two streams will be directed into each other to make a bunch of head on collisions.  The point is to see what happens from the collisions.  You know what happens if you toss two baseballs at each other.  One moving 20 mph into the other at 20 mph.  They bounce off one another.  Imagine firing each out of a cannon.  Now when they hit they explode and parts of them fly all over the place.  Core and string and laces and cover.  Stuff that doesn’t look like a baseball at all.  Things you would never know about a baseball if you didn’t fire them at each other from cannons.  This new knowledge could help you understand why baseballs behave the way they do when you hit them with a bat.  That knowledge may lead to developing better bats.  Or maybe an improvement in jai alai baskets.  For this experiment the stuff that comes out may be a mix of weird, exotic particles we’ve never seen before.  Understanding more about the make-up of matter will, we expect, lead to untold, unimagined, unplanned advances.  Maybe new manufacturing techniques that interweave material at an atomic level and make Kevlar look like toilet paper.  Maybe, probably, new imaging equipment that will give us clearer views of that killer virus or cancer so we can find ways to defeat death.  Most likely bigger better weapons, hey, we’re people, it’s what we do.
Thank you for covering this issue in such detail Alan.

Great comment by RJG in SoCal!

I could not agree more and I wrote a similar criticism of that talk at http://www.lhcfacts.org/?p=72.[1]

I would like CERN to respond to German Astrophysicist Dr. Rainer Plaga's suggestions for partial risk mitigation.[2]

Dr. Plaga's paper concludes "there is a definite risk from [micro black hole] production at colliders. This final conclusion differs completely from the one drawn by G & M." [2]

[1] http://www.lhcfacts.org/?p=72.  CERN’s Dr. Ellis tells only half of the story, 8/23/2008

[2] http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0808/0808.1415v1.pdf.  On the potential catastrophic risk from metastable quantum-black holes produced at particle colliders - Dr. Rainer Plaga Paper, 8/10/2008
Our world is becoming more uninhabitable every day. Can't 10 Billion Dollars be used to combat some of the major problems the human race has?
   Stop this experiment.  Some idiot scientist brought killer bees to this hemisphere for an experiment, now they're here!
    Use the 10 Billion to clean up some of the toxic mess we're in.
the only thing we have to fear is, fear itself. No danger in this experiment, except for the boundless imaginary possibilities.
When I read about this thing, I get freaked out. But then I think, if this thing could really destroy the world, wouldn't more people be up in arms trying to stop it? I mean, this isn't just the U.S. we're talking about, it's the world. Maybe everyone else is just waiting for someone else to do something? I'd like to think of normal U.S. citizens wouldn't object, leaders of foreign nations would. But I don't know enough about science to understand whether these risks are real or are just crazy conspiracies and silliness. I am trusting and hoping that the people who do understand this thing will do the right thing for the world.
Where to begin...there are so many uneducated responses here.  First off anyone who is worried about a black-hole swallowing up earth needs to go back and review basic physics.  Second atom colliders have been in operation for many years operating safely with no accidents.  I find it funny when joe schmoe from nowhere questions if these people know what they are doing.  I can honestly say these people know more about the subject matter than anyone of you brain dead idiots.  Seriously go out get a life, put the bible down, and join us back in reality.
I read these comments and can’t believe what is coming out of some of your mouths or fingers to be exact. Some of you have watched too much TV.  Do you really think that these teams of scientist are going to risk human existence?  Seriously!? Go back to reading your crazy book that talks about humans waking on water and parting seas. It’s a joke people, calm down. Billions have been invested in this project and countless measures have been accounted for.  They are doing crap that 99% of the bloggers from this article (including me) can’t even understand.  Somebody said put it in laymen terms. FYI, this type of physics cannot be explained in laymen terms, oh, and the string theory doesn’t really involve real strings.  It is all going to be OK, we will live past this experiment. Thanks for the laughs.  
65 Million years ago, there was a dinosaur named Computersaurus who built the first collider and look what happened to her. First she forgot to plug it in and then realized that the software was written by Microsaurus. After millions and millions of years, the scientists were certain that the answer was 42 - 101010.

Finally, if the world comes to an end before the USA becomes fully vested in fascism....Well perhaps we should all wait to see if the fascists steal another election before the first experiment.
I hope a man-made blackhole does gobble up the planet. Humanity has always been its own worst enemy. It would be poetic justice.
I find the level of ignorance in the replies to this blog to be staggering. These scientists have studied one of the most advanced topics ever developed for decades, and people on this board, most of whom have spent all of 20 minutes reading about this topic, are now suddenly experts in particle physics who feel themselves quailfied to bring up an issue as if these scientist had not throughly considered it a million times over. An issue so obvious, I might add, that any graduate student in physics or astronomy will already have considered it and dismissed it as ridiculous. I'm sorry people, get a grip.
the nay sayers , these are the same people that belive that the world is flat, that we did not go to the moon,these are the same people that held back this world of ours in progress, because of these persons we as a whole are about 40 years behind development. Please go tell Dr Plaga's to bury his head in the sand, We get bombared with cosmic rays all day long with more energy than the LHC would ever create and yes there are no micrp black holes popping up all over the world.  Please let Cern do ther job and the others go back to the cave era.
Passing Physics was hard enough.  I think this adds at least 20 more questions to the final.
hey, there are natural LHC's in the universe, if some of the conjectures are correct there oughta be some mini black holes around jupiter and saturn, and what about the sun, talk about a VERY,VERY,VERY large hadron collider!!...get real people, the sky aint falling, the rain will come eventually so put away the sacrificial knives and lets get on climbing up the knowledge tree like we were intended to do.  I agree that 10 billion is a lot of money but maybe just maybe it is better spent on peace rather than war.
There is no risk. Collisions of this energy and far higher are common. They not only occur all over the universe,they occur in the upper atmosphere of our own planet. Not only have astrophysicists seen no evidence that any chain reaction of this type has ever happened,the earth has not been swallowed up. As for the black hole hypothesis, black holes evaporate at a rate which increases the smaller the black hole is. A black hole of that size/energy would evaporate a tiny fraction of a second. All this fear mongering is just the ranting of fringe lunatics.
I am by no stretch of the imagination a person who is an obstructionist of progress. However, how dare they risk anyone but themselves even if there is a remote possibility of the creation of a black hole or strangelet particles. The fate of the entire human race and future generations could be determined by this experiment. On September 10, we could wake up on an earth of dark matter or inside the event horizon of a black hole (if we wake up at all). Maybe this is the reason that there isn't abundant life out there. Once a race becomes intelligent enough to create a supercollider, then bye, bye.  A more intelligent race would wait until it advances enough to understand and deal with the possible consequences. I guess that this is evolution on a cosmic scale.
The chance of a negative outcome is indeed small but not negligible.  After all, one of the reserachers might fall and break his hip while walking down the stairs.  Someone could catch a pencil in the eye.  The chance of something resulting from this experiment having a large-scale destructive impact on the planet, however, cannot be said be be zero only becuase it is impossible to logically demonstrate that it is zero.  But the possibility is infinitiesimally remote, as anyone with more than a high-school level of science education and a rudimentary grasp of rational thought should understand - far higher-energy impacts occur every day right here on Earth.  For any of these doomsday scenarios to occur, our fundamental grasp of physics would need to be clearly flawed, and more than a century of experimentation demonstrates that it isn't.

This lawsuit is pseudoscientific scaremongering, and approximately as credible as creationism or spoon-bending.  I hear Uri Geller is taking applications.
Just a common man's comment, but it seems that all great discoveries involve some risk.  Many researchers and scientests have died trying to prove (or disprove) radical theories with experiments that have given rise to many of the elements that make our current lives so comfortable in so many ways.

This huge experimental hotbed NEEDS to be exercised, over and over again. There are fundamental questions that may be answered, basic tenets of the universe that have remained hidden till now because we didn't have the capability to marvel at their wonder.

Now we do...at least in part.  My personal belief is that this hadron collider will end up creating more questions than it provides in answers.  The smaller we see, the more there is to see.  In the "infinite universe," there is the infinitely large and the infinitely small.  

Some might say that only the "Eye of God" can see the infinitely small.  

Perhaps we're approaching that degree of clarity in our vision.  Perhaps not.  But, it is a step in that direction.  

Ultimately, we must understand the very basic elements of creation if we are to survive.  We will not be able to occupy this planet for all time to come. The day will come when the information learned from the hadron collider will be fundamental in the discovery of HOW we will be able to leave this tiny and insignificant bit of space dust to find another bit of dust we can occupy and consume as we've done this planet.  

We ARE consumers, there is no doubt.  We will deplete this planet.  I'm hopeful that the hadron collider comes in time to allow the giant leaps of knowledge about the infinitely small to be made and applied to our exit strategy from the planet Earth.

Just a common man's perspective.

Be talkin' to you.............Webrydr
"Your majesty, I seek your permission to send several ships westward.  We may find new continents with vast riches and a faster way to reach China without going around the tip of Africa."

"But Christopher, the earth is flat.  If you sail beyond the horizon, you will fall off the edge or get swallowed by huge sea serpents.  Your experiment is too dangerous and I cannot permit it."
I expect if a black hole is created it will consume us all so quickly that we will not even know it - so what, all things come to an end at some time and then get recreated with a big bang.
This is a interesting discussion.  Both the pro's and the con's have voiced thier arguments very effectively.  But in the end, it's what we out here on the prairie call The Code of the West.  Which is simply, "A Man's Got to do What a Man's got to do."
There are plenty of reasons NOT to do something, just as there are equally good reasons TO DO the very same thing.  Compelling arguments can be made by both sides, but in the end it comes down to THE CODE OF THE WEST.  Whether you phrase it "A man..." or simply "Man" as in Mankind.  We've got to do this. So sit back and learn something.  There will be plenty of time for recriminations and "I told you so's" afterwards.  Ride 'em cowboy and don't spare the spurs!

Alan,
Through a number of articles I've seen a lot of requests for more information or explanation and a lot of really good replies that break things down into terms almost anyone can understand.  Outside of dialogue between a few distinct individuals I've only noticed a few courtesy replies indicating that the reply wasn't a total waste of time.  Do you routinely get replies that aren't posted or does the effort, as far as you can tell, just go out into the ether?  Wait, ether was never experimentally proven.

[ALAN ADDS: Tim, I just keep serving up the flapjacks and hope they're tasty enough that people keep coming back. So far it's been working. By the way, I recently received Frank Wilczek's book, titled "The Lightness of Being," in which the concept of the ether makes a bit of a comeback. But now it's called the Grid. Just goes to show that there's nothing new under the closest astronomical fusion-power source.]

Prudence would dictate that it would be far wiser to wait for the results of other experiments that seek to conclude whether Hawking Radiation is in fact real.
Only after such experiments reveal this to be true or not can it be safe to engage in the firing up of the LHC and ripping a hole in the fifth dimension.  I hope you agree this is true, otherwise it's 50/50 that we get a new rip in space time we cannot mend.
The notion of "stranglets" transforming ordinary matter the same way a virus spreads is total science fiction. And the idea of stranglets even happening is beyond reality simply because it didn't happen 14 billion yeras ago. Star Trek makes a habit of using names that imply exotic matter..like "neutronium". Maybe the experiment will vindicate star trek ?

To the people runnimg scared of the new genie about to be released I say this, GET A LIFE !


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