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Quantum fluctuations in space, science, exploration and other cosmic fields... served up regularly by MSNBC.com science editor Alan Boyle since 2002.

Alan Boyle covers the physical sciences, anthropology, technological innovation and space science and exploration for MSNBC.com. He is a winner of the AAAS Science Journalism Award, the NASW Science-in-Society Award and other honors; a contributor to "A Field Guide for Science Writers"; and a member of the board of the Council for the Advancement of Science Writing.

Check out Boyle's biography or send a message to Cosmic Log via cosmiclog@msnbc.com.



Twists in the doomsday debate

Posted: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 7:07 PM by Alan Boyle


CERN
A simulation shows the
pattern of particles that
could be produced by a
microscopic black hole.

Preparations for starting up the world's largest atom-smasher on Sept. 10 are proceeding smoothly, but the legal tussle over whether it should be stopped is facing new twists. Look for Nobel laureates and diplomats to weigh in as a key federal court hearing nears.

The hearing is scheduled to begin in Hawaii on Sept. 2, just a week before the official startup of Europe's Large Hadron Collider. U.S. District Judge Helen Gillmor will consider whether to dismiss a civil lawsuit claiming that the machine could destroy the world.

The plaintiffs in the case, former nuclear safety official Walter Wagner and Spanish science writer Luis Sancho, say the officials in charge of the LHC at the CERN particle-physics center have not fully considered the possibility that the collider could create globe-gobbling black holes or other catastrophes of cosmic proportions.

The defendants, including CERN and the U.S. Department of Energy, say the doomsday worries are pure science fiction - and have cited a series of safety reports concluding that the Large Hadron Collider poses no global threat.

Both sides are getting their briefs in order as the hearing date approaches - and picking up new allies (or new foes, depending on how you see the issue) along the way. Here are several developments of note:

CERN in default, or off the hook?
Some observers have wondered whether a European organization such as CERN can rightly be held accountable by a private party in U.S. court over activities that will be happening exclusively in Europe. Wagner and Sancho say it can, and they hired a process-server to deliver legal documents to CERN's headquarters on the French-Swiss border. When CERN didn't respond, they filed a motion seeking a default judgment against the organization.

However, last week the Swiss government sent the court a letter through diplomatic channels, saying that the document drop-off did not officially make CERN a party to the case. According to Swiss charge d'affaires Alexander Wittwer, the only way CERN could be served would be if the U.S. Embassy in Switzerland delivered the documents to the Swiss foreign ministry.

The Justice Department, which is handling the federal government's defense in the case, had no comment today on how the procedure might play out. A hearing on the plaintiffs' motion for a default judgment has been scheduled on Sept. 25, and the issue is sure to come up at that time - that is, if the case hasn't been resolved by then.

Nobel laureates weigh in
The defendants' side of the story is about to get a high-powered boost from two Nobel Prize-winning physicists and a well-known colleague of theirs from Harvard. The scientists are seeking to file a friend-of-the-court brief in the case, saying that they have "special knowledge which they believe will assist the court."

The three physicists are Boston University's Sheldon Glashow (Nobel in Physics, 1979), MIT's Frank Wilczek (Nobel in Physics, 2004) and Harvard's Richard Wilson (an expert on high-energy physics, nuclear safety and risk analysis).

"All three of them had done work with respect to the accelerator at Brookhaven, which Walter Wagner challenged back in the day," said Martin Kaufman, an attorney for the New York-based Atlantic Legal Foundation who is handling the filing.

Kaufman was referring to the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider, or RHIC, an earlier "big bang machine" that Wagner claimed would create a catastrophe. No catastrophe has occurred to date, eight years after RHIC's startup.

In their new brief, the physicists say that questions about the LHC's safety "have been raised, studied and answered decisively," and that the plaintiffs "have apparently not educated themselves about the extensive analysis that has been done."

Kaufman tried to get the physicists involved in the case as friends of the court last week, but it turned out that he lacked the legal standing to do so. Kaufman told me he was now in the process of getting the official go-ahead, known in legalese as "pro hac vice" permission.

In the meantime, an initial draft of the brief wound up in the court docket with some scientific errors: For example, the draft called the LHC a linear accelerator (it isn't) and said that the collider wouldn't smash nuclei together (it will). That drew Wagner's derision: "They're just being way off the wall on the facts," he told me.

Kaufman said Glashow independently caught mistakes in the draft document, and the errors will be fixed in the final copy.

When I spoke with Glashow, he said he hoped the friend-of-the-court brief would add an extra bit of gravity to the legal proceedings - and lead to the speedy dismissal of a "frivolous" lawsuit.

"It's wasting lots of time and effort to argue against this, but I think it's important to dispose of this as soon as possible," he told me.

Dueling documents
If the case goes forward, there will likely be a flurry of scientific papers cited by both sides. Glashow and the other would-be friends of the court cite one yet-to-be-published paper titled "Exclusion of Black Hole Disaster Scenarios at the LHC." The three German physicists behind the research look at the different scenarios for the growth of black holes and contend that the collider couldn't put a black hole on a world-threatening course.

Meanwhile, Wagner's retort to the friends of the court cites another unpublished paper titled "On the Potential Catastrophic Risk From Metastable Quantum-Black Holes Produced at Particle Colliders." This paper, written by German astrophysicist Rainer Plaga, contends that tiny black holes could conceivably emit harmful radiation soon after they were produced, and that such phenomena would "remain undetectable in astrophysical observations."

Wagner's most recent filings also cite warnings about the LHC's risks from German chemist Otto Rössler. Those warnings have gotten so much press lately that a group of leading quantum physicists in Germany, known as the Committee for Elementary Particle Physics, recently issued a letter countering Rössler's claims.

"There is no way that the LHC will produce black holes capable of swallowing up the Earth," the letter read, according to a report on Spiegel Online. "This claim is based on extremely well tested theories of physics and on observations of the cosmos."

The University of Wuppertal's Peter Mättig told Spiegel Online that he didn't think many people took the doomsday fears seriously. "But it is notable how often we have been asked about the problem," he said. "And we especially want to refute those, like Dr. Rössler, who try to use science to back up their claims."

Even as the hearing date nears on the topics of black holes, strangelets and magnetic monopoles, Wagner told me he is gearing up for a new challenge to LHC operations, on the grounds that the builders haven't fully considered the possibility that a wayward beam of protons could touch off an explosive "fusion propagation wave."

CERN says the LHC is designed to cope with particle beams that go astray. Here's how the question is addressed in the organization's file of frequently asked questions:

"... The beam of particles has the energy of a Eurostar train traveling at full speed, and should something happen to destabilize the particle beam there is a real danger that all of that energy will be deflected into the wall of the beam pipe and the magnets of the LHC, causing a great deal of damage. The LHC has several automatic safety systems in place that monitor all the critical parts of the LHC. Should anything unexpected happen (power or magnet failure, for example) the beam is automatically 'dumped' by being squirted into a blind tunnel where its energy is safely dissipated. This all happens in milliseconds - the beam, which is traveling at 11,000 circuits of the LHC per second, will complete less than three circuits before the dump is complete."

To research his claims, Wagner is reaching back to the 1940s, the golden age of nuclear paranoia, when Edward Teller and two other physicists wrote a report discussing the idea that nuclear bombs could set Earth's atmosphere on fire. (They concluded it wasn't possible because the bombs weren't powerful enough.) The long-classified report, known as LA-602, recently came up for discussion on the Overcoming Bias blog.

You might get the impression from all this that Wagner just doesn't like the LHC, no matter what anyone says. "It's not that I don't like it," he insisted. "In fact, I think it's wonderful ... if it's done safely."

Will it all be over in a couple of weeks? Or will it just be starting? Feel free to add your insights below - but do try to make them insightful, OK?

Update for 1:10 p.m. ET Aug. 20: Symmetry Breaking's David Harris points to a fresh explanation of the black-hole controversy, penned by Michael Peskin from the Stanford Linear Accelerator for APS Physics and titled "The End of the World at the Large Hadron Collider?" Harris writes that "Peskin's viewpoint summarizes the main arguments admirably clearly."

More from the frontiers of physics:

  • From Oak Ridge National Laboratory: America's fusion future ... Under the neutron microscope.

  • From the ITER project: Fusion when? ... Fusion's fortress.

  • From Canada's TRIUMF lab: Inside the supernova machine.
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    Comments

    I'm VERY excited about the new atom-smasher!!! I've been waiting years for this machine to be turned on so we can discover new things that exist in the universe! The hold up due to ignorant law suits is just a hold up...
    It seems that many people are misinformed or perhaps ignorant in the study of particle physics and cosmology. In order to have a black hole that can swallow a planet, which by the way it does not swallow, but rather pulls apart, is if the black hole was created by the aftermath of a supernova or the collapse of a neutron star. Supernovas involve the biggest stars collapsing under their own gravity and the same occurs with neutron stars. Furthermore, these black holes emit Hawking Radiation and over time collapse. If the Large Hadron Collider produces a nano-black hole, it will collapse on itself because of the Hawking Radiation. I would suggest that people visit Wikipedia to further educate themselves on this subject or consult the works of Brian Greene or Michio Kaku. Also, since when do politicians know the inner-workings of particles anyway? Instead of looking at the dangers of this project, which theoretically are nonexistent, why not look at how this will expand our knowledge of the universe? Besides, mathematics has not failed society once in its existence, it may have been unfinished or constricted by limited technology, but math has not failed. Scientists have been studying black holes for several decades, placing the most prodigious mathematicians and physicists at the front lines. Why not put trust in them, who spend their lives on this subject, rather than the skeptic, who does not research his argument and cannot claim to be a scientist? Thank you.
    Sincerely, a disgruntled college student.

    I find it interesting that the scientific communities on both sides of this argument seem to agree on one thing. That is the LHC will most likely create black holes. The questions therefore become, Are we comfortable enough with our current knowledge to keep these under control? Are they predictable? Are we capable of shutting them down if they do gain strength?
    If what I am reading in the original article is correct, then I feel it is only prudent to ask these and other questions. After all, isn't that what science is all about?

    [ALAN ADDS: Actually, most physicists would say black-hole production in the LHC is highly unlikely ... unless there are extra unseen small-scale dimensions in the universe, and the right number of unseen dimensions at that. Another commenter asked how it could be that the LHC could create black holes without collapsing a star. The answer is that a black hole is just the term for a concentration of mass-energy (remember that mass and energy are equivalent based on E=mc^2) so dense that even light is pulled into its gravitational grip. In the LHC's case, energy might be concentrated enough on a small scale to satisfy that definition for an instant.

    [The current mainstream view is that gravity is not strong enough to affect things on a subatomic scale, but the LHC could test the idea that gravity spreads out in the extra dimensions, and would actually be as strong as it "should" be on ultra-small scales.

    [As others have noted, current theory states that black holes would eventually dissipate due to Hawking radiation. Stellar-mass (or galaxy-scale) black holes are so massive and ultra-cold that the Hawking radiation wouldn't come into play until about 10^60 years from now (that's a 1 followed by 60 zeroes), physicist Leonard Susskind observes in the book "The Black Hole War." However, the microscopic black holes we're talking about in the LHC are so small and hot that they should dissipate microseconds after they arise. (That's the part of the theory that is contested by folks who worry about the LHC.)

    [Any black holes in the LHC would not be detected directly, but only by the signature of the particles they leave behind.

    [For more about black holes and what they mean, check out this past posting: http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/07/02/1180976.aspx]

    This would make a great Dr Who episode.
    From janaya -  "How much energy will be created when two particles (even though at a very small scale) collide when each is moving at nearly the speed of light?  I am not sure I would like to find out."

    Energy = mass * acceleration.  

    E=MC^2 or E=(mass of hydrogen)(speed of light)(speed of light) or
    E= 1.00794 * (299,792,458 m/s) * (299,792,458 m/s)

    E= 90,589,129,485,598,797 joules

    c^2=89,875,517,873,681,764 is a scalar or multiplier.
    Anything multiplied by C^2 will be big.

    If we can only reach 1/4 of C we can write the expression.  E=M(.25C)^2 which is still a big number.
    Sure the thought of a Blackhole devouring the planet is a scary one... but come on, what a way to go. assuming there was any credence to the claims of these plaintiffs.

    If anything,  I'd seriously be more worried about them getting closer to being able to store and mass produce anti matter with the big particle decelerator at CERN
    I'm not going to be misleading and say that I don't have concerns regarding the LHC, but I feel the most serious issue tied to all of this is the lack of public awareness.  Why is this getting such limited coverage in mainstream media?  This really should be out there with full disclosure so that the reaction of the people can dictate our course.  I think most people understand that the foundation of human discovery is pressing into the unknown with the testing of hypotheses and postulates.  However, scientific boldness should never take precedence over the will of the masses.
    If you're going to have faith in something, have faith in the ability of humanity to make use of its intelligence.  If some divine being did in fact create us and give us the ability to understand the Universe, then why should it put arbitrary limits on what we can accomplish with that understanding?  If God wanted us to scratch in the mud and compose hymns to His glory in the few short years before we die to disease, then there's really no purpose in intelligence or free will to begin with.  Nor would He booby-trap the laws of the universe so that we could "accidentally" annihilate ourselves with a beam of protons.

    From a scientific point of view, human knowledge always progresses forward.  There is no credible (meaning peer-reviewed) research to support the notion that we can use the LHC to create quantum-level events that would destroy the planet.  Can these fears be completely disregarded?  Of course not, but similar doomsday fears in atomic research were never realized, and it's clear to me that there will always be someone with a plausible sounding excuse to fear anything new.

    Now, the delicious irony of this situation is that CERN is playing the jurisdictional game to avoid appearing as a party to a lawsuit whose issues affect the entire planet.  If the worst comes to pass, let it not be said that bureaucracy killed the human race.
    i say give it a whirl, what's the worst that can happen...
    Wow, the lack of open-mindedness and reason in the american (and world) public always astounds me.  Nearly all beneficial technological advances in this world have come from the few intelligent people willing to go the extra mile.  I say congrats to the scientists who are trying to figure life out in more detail and may in the process provide tools and answers to the more pressing issues on hand.  The american public is too willing to settle for mediocrity.
    I'd love to read more but I suspect the wireless connection from the fallout shelter is really bad-- and I'm leaving now. Good luck.  
    Minor correction to Marc who said "the energy of the universe which seems unlimited."  Though it may seem to be unlimited, it is a physical and philosophical impossibility for anything to be unlimited (infinite).
    If we let fear of the unknown stifle innovation then we're doomed.

    This planet's resources and the sun aren't going to last forever so we'd better learn how everything works so we can leave here when we need to.
    Let's be honest here. Okay, maybe the LHC can give us a deeper understanding of particle physics, the big bang, etc... but the cost of this machine is astounding. The cost to operate it once could feed thousands of hungry people all around the world. Or help fund cancer research. But no, millions upon millions of dollars are going to be dumped into the LHC and for what? To say "oh, look at that... it's exactly what we already thought would happen. COOL!"
    Deeper understanding of our world you say? I say a childish waste of money.  You engineers who are already in the field are wasting your time and knowledge on pointless issues. I can only pray that my generation of engineers and I will focus on actual issues facing humanity. Alternative energy? Does thatdo anything for you? Ugh.... It just disgusts me to think about it...
    What if this opens a portal to another dimension and horrible monsters come out and attack Europe?
    This could be the last RISK we take :)
    @janaya
    "How much energy will be created when two particles (even though at a very small scale) collide when each is moving at nearly the speed of light?"

    E=mc^2.  Which turns out to be *much* less than what is put into the system to accelerate the particles in the first place.  Otherwise we could use the process to generate power.
    I think it's interesting that people are referring to this as a waste of money and question how many people could be fed with this money. This extremely hypocritical from a country of people that spends 2 billion dollars to elect a public official(President). I ask where's your outrage and human interest when it comes to assessing your own priorities of financial responsibility. So please enjoy driving your gas guzzling SUV's as you bluster on about the irresponsible spending in a quest for knowledge and understanding of the universe.
    Collissions scheduled to begin October 21 at slowly increasing energies, but some estimates are that collisions may be delayed until 2009.

    Dr. Rossler addresses criticisms of his paper at achtphasen.net: www.achtphasen.net/index.php/plasmaether/2008/08/08/gerhard_w_bruhn_darmstadt_university_of__2008

    "the diverging conclusion"... "is therefore not disconfirmed. On the contrary. Which of the two interpretations of the same finding is correct remains open." (Prof. Otto E. Rössler an Gerhard W. Bruhn)

    I find Dr. Rossler's re-interpretation of Relativity equations to be brilliant and obvious.  Theories such as Bohmian Quantum Mechanics that demystify physics and easily win the Occam's razor test are overdue for main stream focus.

    I enjoyed MM's wise quote at www.nowpublic.com/technology/potential-danger-particle-collider-experiments

    MM writes:

    Here we go again! Deja vu: This is just modern replay of something that has already happened in the history of mankind. The incident is recalled in Book of Genesis chapter 11 - The Tower of Babel. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

    Arrogance (those running the show) vs. Ignorance (those who don't even know the show is running).
    I can see them breaking their expensive toy with a rogue beam of energy but I don't forsee any earth ending black holes.  At most I could agree with a tiny black hole burping out a minute amount of radiation but nothing threatening.  But hey, I could be wrong.  I'd rather die trying though.  Without the neverending quest for knowledge what would humankind be left with?  A pointless cycle of reproduction that eventually overwhelms the planet?  Our thirst for knowledge gives us purpose and if that means stepping on a few toes so be it.  Besides, we'll blow ourselves up one way or another anyway.  May as well go out trying to learn for the sake of humankind rather than in some war of nukes.
    Hello Kyle,

    You write that you are an undergraduate in astrophysics, that is wonderful!

    I challenge you to study the arguments of the safety opposition, not just the arguments from LHC supporters that some of us consider to be public relations propaganda first and based on fundamentally flawed science.

    You write "The solar wind and cosmic rays slam into the moon all the time with much more power then the LHC could ever produce.  The moon has been sitting there in space for over 4 billion years and hasn't been swallowed by a black hole or turned into a some kind of subatomic goop."

    This argument has a fundamental flaw.  If micro black holes are created by cosmic ray impacts, they will simply pass through the planet at more than 99% the speed of light.  Some percentage of micro black holes created by head-on particle collisions would have velocities too low to escape Earth's gravity, less than 11 km/sec.

    Dr. Rossler refutes follow on arguments involving cosmic rays and Neutron stars “protected by quantum coherence effects of the superfluidity type: so miniblack holes can pass without friction”.

    JT
    lion, tigers, and bears, Oh My!
    This is a great technological achievement for mankind and a new frontier with many possibilities.   I am all for it and Good Luck to us.  I only read about the LHC on the internet and only when I go looking for it because my inherent interest in science.  This topic has totally escaped the main stream media.   When I talk to my friends and random people to my surprise no one has heard about it.   If by slim chance that this could be a doomsday event, I always wonder do a select few have the right to represent all the animals on this planet or a tribesman in the deep jungles of Africa or Amazon knowing that if something goes wrong it would be the end of all on this planet?  Those who will never know that an Extinction Level Event was mankind’s doing.    I do not have an answer but this is something that keeps me up at night; not the event that is about to happen but the people’s voices that never had a chance to be heard.
    I think this a secret experiment in "torsion physics", attempting to open some kind of portal to a place of infinite energy.
    if it goes wrong, it would solve the credit and housing crises and the econemy. good luck.
    You can't go through the Straits of Gibraltar, the world is flat and you'll fall off...We will never know what we don't know unless we attempt the unthinkable.
    What's killing me is that the folks responding here aren't realising that, to most people, tiny particles moving at the speed of light and then crashing in to each other is just as out-there and loony as two guys in Georgia digging up bigfoot remains.  The LHC isn't a blender or a dishwasher or some other mundane piece of equipment.  This is fringe stuff; stuff that most Americans aren't educated enough to really get a good mental grip on.  That can be scary sometimes.  Heck, most people don't even really understand how their CD player works.
    We are so busy thinking about what scientific breakthroughs we could make, we are not thinking about whether or not we should. If the risk is too great, don't do it. They really don't know if it will create black holes or not. That's why they are doing the test. Once the it's done, they may not be able to undo it.
    i have to disagree with Erwin and Francisco. the A bomb was an unfortunate mistake in human history, but what we've learned from nuclear energy has lead to some great discoveries. for one, maybe we wouldn't be leaching on foreign oil so much if it wasn't for Hiroshima. Einstein didn't know his work would lead to where it went.  had he been the one continuing it, maybe it wouldn't have, but it's the fear in people like in this situation that is making it unpopular to become a scientist. leaving it other countries to discover great things and basically solving our nations problems. the creation of this machine could lead to immense possibilities for mankind. and i for one, living in the ONLY country that has put someone on the moon, i'm a little disappointed.
    The nay sayers of this project are probably the direct descendants of the people who told Columbus that he couldn't said too far west, or he'd fall off the edge.
    "Knowledge is power and power corrupts and absolute power absolutely corrupts...what price will be paid for this knowledge...will we find what we were looking for....yes we will and what price will that knowledge cost."

    ...The flaw in this thinking is that "knowledge is power".  Knowledge may be able to provide a path to power, but knowledge alone without action, is only a filter to see the universe around us.  

    Action, with no knowledge to guide it towards a goal, is far easier to deliberately or inadvertently corrupt.  
    Action, guided by knowledge alone, can realize any goal, but with no guarantee of benevolence.
    Action, guided not only by knowledge, but also by compassion and caution, can realize many goals that contribute to the common good.  Even if that good is just more knowledge to share.

    I believe it more accurate to say that "Ignorance corrupts, and absolute ignorance must be bliss".
    The idea of all of these is to get answers of how, why we are here, learning more about it will probably gives us more knowledge on future survival, but if for some people that is so hard to comprehend and still believing in "Intelligent Design" then we have a problem.
    So, we should all stop training physicists and put them all to work in soup kitchens instead? I'm not getting your point, here.
    All will be fine. I am loooking forward to getting this started so we increase our knowledge. It may reveal clues on how we can tap the energy of dark matter, and then our enegy problem are over. [...]
    I a european say 'America go to hell', and if Europeans had done some kind of leagal poursuit just before the first atomic bomb was activated, like saying it would destroy the universe, LOL you're all so dumb!
    Microscopic black holes are only one of the possible bad things that can happen. From what I read, particles called "strangelets" can form. Once formed they can cause a change the particles around them into "strange matter" in a chain reaction that could encompass the whole earth.  This is not a trivial matter.
    No one said anything about the infinite amount of times that we have already been swallowed up by black holes
    In response to James Tankersly,

    Even if these collisions do create tiny black holes that are moving slower then the escape velocity of the Earth they would evaporate due to Hawking radiation.  The same theories that predict the creation of black holes also predict the Hawking radiation.  So you can't have one without the other.  Either way we are not doomed.

    -Kyle
    I'm embarrassed that these plaintiffs are from the US. Anybody who buys into these concerns is a fool unworthy of membership in the human race.

    ---------------------------------------------------

    Max, you completely underestimate the human capacity to be foolish.
    I've read the comments as a "general public" type person.  I believe the general public should be more aware.  The risk is "general misunderstanding".  I'm sure this has been tested mathematically. probably someone even double checked the computation. "tongue in check there"  If these were scientists from the pharmaceutical companies I'd run screaming in the street.  The project probably does need the added scrutiny, safety feature, But they need to proceed.   This is from a person who has only been aware of HAARP  for the last year.
    WENDY!! What exactly are YOU doing about poverty, misery and vice?
    Y'all really scare me. If we listened to such naysayers we would never have left the trees or caves, too dangerous out there.
    Relax y'all. It's gonna be O.K. There are tiny black holes everywhere. They could take us out anytime, they haven't, 'cause?
    The LHC is massive and just looking at the pictures of it is very frightning!  If the scientists secretly knew it was going to blow up and do something unusual wouldn't they be starting it up from far away???  Besides if the LHC was so bad, our government would have spoke up about it already.  If president George W. Bush is looking for Weapons of Mass Destruction,  here it is!!!!
    Please perspective will help.  Yes, there are those that grandstand - on both sides.  BUT - If we are to advance our knowledge and our race, let if be with eyes wide open, evaluating risk AND opportunity.  There should always be those that question our actions.  It is they that prevent disaster.  There should always be those that push the envelope of what we know and can do.  It is they that move us forward.  Life is a balance of these conflicting forces...Let them fight it out... to our long lasting benefit.
    The issue that should be addressed is how in the world Mr. Wagner and his counter-parts had their claims entertained in the U.S government's court system. Did they even try to talk directly to CERN and affiliated officials first? Probably not because CERN already had some of the smartest people on this planet on the case of this black hole mumbojumbo. Risks need to be taken to advance in this world, better yet the universe, and this generation needs to be the one to take them. For this planet's sake and our species.
    One quick note to RJG's comment about the "temeperature of the center of the sun". I know we all see the sun as a really, really hot object. However, the center of the sun is quite cool compared to the surface of the sun, and even more the corona around it. So you see, the further from the center, the hotter it is.
    Most of the American public has any understanding of the items in use around their home today, such as the computer, cell phone, CD player, microwave, car, tv, battery, watch, and so on. So it is understandable that something like this hasn't made mainstream news. People freak out all the time when they hear that radiation has leaked from a reactor, like the US submarine did in Japanese ports. But the thing is people, the uneducated or fearful, have associated ANYTHING dealing with Nuclear power with bad. I operate a reactor for the Navy. I understand what I work with, and the amount of contamination released was about that is in a sack of fertilizer. Your TV is giving off radiation (Old CRTs used to have an FDA warning on them about that).

    In other words, those people are trying to do what the Catholic church did several hundred years ago to Galileo. He was suspected of heresy and sentenced to house arrest until his death. Just for saying that the earth went around the sun.

    Now about feeding the poor..It's their project, let them do what they wish, for I trust that they know what will not happen. It is being done for a noble cause, which is more than I can say for giving money to some beggar.

    Think of the long run, and I mean the really looong run. Long after we are dead, the feeding of the poor will not be remembered, but advancing the knowledge of the human mind will.
    If we destroy ourselves it will be caused by the idiots driving huge gas guzzlers, the idiots who consume conspicuously, and the Faithful who think Jesus will come and save us from ourselves. It will be caused by beholden politicians who think taking money for one bad vote on energy policy won't really hurt anything. We will destroy ourselves with corporations, laziness, and eating beef raised on land that was cleared out of rain forests.
      Stopping the scientist trying to understand the nature of matter, energy and the universe is little more than escapism. These idiots can't be bothered to spend any of their time on actually making a difference.
    What will be the explanation, if on some future date, during one of these tests, that only some of the Earth's citizens no longer exist, yet others remain?

    Will the scientists be able to explain the results of their tests? Will it be the missing were swallowed up by black holes, or that something happened that they cannot explain by using present day physics?
    As professionals in the Risk Mgmt arena will tell you, the most difficult risk to manage is one in which there is very low probability of occurrence, but very high hurt if it happens.  
    The energies being toyed with here are outside the predictive fact base of anything unleashed before on the Earth.  So the only indisputable fact is that no one knows precisely what will happen (if we did, we wouldn't need to run the experiment).  Yet CERN is willing to bet all our lives that the unknown unknowns won't prove catastrophically destructive.  Nice.
    Joaquin Solorzano,
    Who do you say is responsible for your wife’s paranoia and howso?  I was stopped at a red light with a friend of mine, 3rd car back.  The light turned green and the car in front of us started moving, but failed to pull 2 Gs pulling away from the light.  My friend got all upset telling me that it’s people like that who cause accidents.  All this time I thought it was people who drove into the rear end of the car in front of them that caused accidents.  I don’t think it’s the people at CERN causing your wife undo worry, to me it looks like the blame falls on the fear mongers.  And your wife for listening to them.

    Wendy, Seattle wrote, “Of all the things for our countries to pool their resources together to pay for, this multi-billion dollar project took priority over all the rest.”  Care to qualify your statement with the amounts spent on the things you listed?  Or is it just empty whining?

    Chris Tate,
    Black holes are a pretty well accepted, totally unproven theory.  They would happen any time you get significant enough gravity.  One way to do this is to assemble a huge amount of mass into a small enough volume, another possible way is to get a small amount of mass into a tiny, tiny space.  The second is the concern here.  We can’t possibly do it with matter as we know it.  In the large scale black holes we talk about taking out the empty space in an atom.  If the sun were an atomic nucleus and the rest of the system were the electrons then this solar atom has a radius that includes the Oort Cloud and we would take all that orbiting mass, which isn’t really that much, and compress it from approximately 50,000 AU to approximately 1 AU.  Think of the difference in density if you pile up a bunch of systems Oort Cloud to Oort Cloud or star to star.  When you take all that emptiness out of the atoms the density goes way up and gravity concentration gets to black hole level.  To get the gravity of two protons, or two lead ions, to that concentration you’d have to collapse the “empty” space inside the protons, or inside the protons and neutrons.  That assumes there’s empty space.  So now we’re talking about a proton being like a mylar balloon.  Protons are made up of, we think, three quarks.  Evidently when three quarks get together they take up the space of a proton as they orbit each other.  To get them into a small enough space we’d have to stop them from orbiting each other and still have them stay together.  It doesn’t seem feasible.  The worry arises because the particles involved in the collisions will be going very, very fast.  At these speeds they will experience an artificial increase in momentum.  This is interpreted by us as an increase in mass.  More mass means more gravity.  More gravity means the space it needs to compress to is larger.  Then it may be possible to get a MBH.  SERIOUS PROBLEMS with this theory:  Does an increase in momentum mean an increase in gravitational mass?  I don’t know of any research that indicates this.  IF yes then will the LHC bring the protons to a fast enough speed to get enough mass to make a MBH in the volume of 2 protons?  Not even close (energy wise) according to my calculations.  Let’s assume I’m wrong – this does happen.  Will all of the energy of the collision be converted into a single result or will some be lost as wave emissions?  I think there will be losses to wave emissions, but let’s assume that enough energy is left to convert to a MBH.  What will the gravity be?  In a collision where all the energy is converted the result is the mass of two protons at rest.  Even if they had great mass at near c they only have their normal mass after the collision.  Even if the collision has the energy to make a MBH, immediately after the collision there’s nothing there.  IF, once made into a MBH there is are 6 quarks lying dormant next to each other taking up so little space that their own gravity sustains the MBH, which is ludicrous by any and every standard I’m aware of, then the mass of the MBH is still only that of 2 protons.  The gravity of which is neglibable.  The event horizon would be far less than one quadrillionth the diameter of an electron.  Take the volume of an electron and divide it into a million equal parts.  Take one of those and divide it into a million equal parts.  Take one of those and divide it into a million parts.  Make that round.  That’s huge compared to what we’re talking about.  But let’s assume that there’s our black hole.  Now it happens across some bit of matter, let’s say another proton.  We can’t even think of the proton getting caught.  Let’s say one quark of the proton crosses the event horizon and is unable to escape.  Either the other two quarks are released or they start to orbit the black hole.  If they orbit then they probably? act as a shield, preventing anything else from getting to the MBH, which then has a terminal mass of 7 quarks, less than that of 3 protons.  Without shielding a 7 quark black hole goes on to try to find it’s next meal.  It could conceivably go for thousands of years before it happens to run into another quark.  We’re not just talking about the emptiness of atoms that it passes through, but the emptiness of protons (mylar balloon).  It would pass through the emptiness of many, many atoms never encountering another particle, and then, when it does encounter a particle it would, conceivably, pass through many, many electrons, protons and neutrons without any effect before capturing another quark, to increase in mass to less than that of 3 protons.  Then thousands of years again before getting another quark and finally achieving the mass of 3 protons.  This would not be the matter-sucker you think of when talking about high mass black holes.  That’s the danger all those people are upset about.  And then only if there is sufficient energy to create a MBH and it doesn’t pop back into normal matter as soon as the relativistic mass goes away.

    Rlator,
    Your “common sense” remark makes the point of the opposition.  There is no “other side” here.  This can be stopped without the worry that our enemies will develop it to use against us.


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