ABOUT COSMIC LOG

Quantum fluctuations in space, science, exploration and other cosmic fields... served up regularly by MSNBC.com science editor Alan Boyle since 2002.

Alan Boyle covers the physical sciences, anthropology, technological innovation and space science and exploration for MSNBC.com. He is a winner of the AAAS Science Journalism Award, the NASW Science-in-Society Award and other honors; a contributor to "A Field Guide for Science Writers"; and a member of the board of the Council for the Advancement of Science Writing.

Check out Boyle's biography or send a message to Cosmic Log via cosmiclog@msnbc.com.



Twists in the doomsday debate

Posted: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 7:07 PM by Alan Boyle


CERN
A simulation shows the
pattern of particles that
could be produced by a
microscopic black hole.

Preparations for starting up the world's largest atom-smasher on Sept. 10 are proceeding smoothly, but the legal tussle over whether it should be stopped is facing new twists. Look for Nobel laureates and diplomats to weigh in as a key federal court hearing nears.

The hearing is scheduled to begin in Hawaii on Sept. 2, just a week before the official startup of Europe's Large Hadron Collider. U.S. District Judge Helen Gillmor will consider whether to dismiss a civil lawsuit claiming that the machine could destroy the world.

The plaintiffs in the case, former nuclear safety official Walter Wagner and Spanish science writer Luis Sancho, say the officials in charge of the LHC at the CERN particle-physics center have not fully considered the possibility that the collider could create globe-gobbling black holes or other catastrophes of cosmic proportions.

The defendants, including CERN and the U.S. Department of Energy, say the doomsday worries are pure science fiction - and have cited a series of safety reports concluding that the Large Hadron Collider poses no global threat.

Both sides are getting their briefs in order as the hearing date approaches - and picking up new allies (or new foes, depending on how you see the issue) along the way. Here are several developments of note:

CERN in default, or off the hook?
Some observers have wondered whether a European organization such as CERN can rightly be held accountable by a private party in U.S. court over activities that will be happening exclusively in Europe. Wagner and Sancho say it can, and they hired a process-server to deliver legal documents to CERN's headquarters on the French-Swiss border. When CERN didn't respond, they filed a motion seeking a default judgment against the organization.

However, last week the Swiss government sent the court a letter through diplomatic channels, saying that the document drop-off did not officially make CERN a party to the case. According to Swiss charge d'affaires Alexander Wittwer, the only way CERN could be served would be if the U.S. Embassy in Switzerland delivered the documents to the Swiss foreign ministry.

The Justice Department, which is handling the federal government's defense in the case, had no comment today on how the procedure might play out. A hearing on the plaintiffs' motion for a default judgment has been scheduled on Sept. 25, and the issue is sure to come up at that time - that is, if the case hasn't been resolved by then.

Nobel laureates weigh in
The defendants' side of the story is about to get a high-powered boost from two Nobel Prize-winning physicists and a well-known colleague of theirs from Harvard. The scientists are seeking to file a friend-of-the-court brief in the case, saying that they have "special knowledge which they believe will assist the court."

The three physicists are Boston University's Sheldon Glashow (Nobel in Physics, 1979), MIT's Frank Wilczek (Nobel in Physics, 2004) and Harvard's Richard Wilson (an expert on high-energy physics, nuclear safety and risk analysis).

"All three of them had done work with respect to the accelerator at Brookhaven, which Walter Wagner challenged back in the day," said Martin Kaufman, an attorney for the New York-based Atlantic Legal Foundation who is handling the filing.

Kaufman was referring to the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider, or RHIC, an earlier "big bang machine" that Wagner claimed would create a catastrophe. No catastrophe has occurred to date, eight years after RHIC's startup.

In their new brief, the physicists say that questions about the LHC's safety "have been raised, studied and answered decisively," and that the plaintiffs "have apparently not educated themselves about the extensive analysis that has been done."

Kaufman tried to get the physicists involved in the case as friends of the court last week, but it turned out that he lacked the legal standing to do so. Kaufman told me he was now in the process of getting the official go-ahead, known in legalese as "pro hac vice" permission.

In the meantime, an initial draft of the brief wound up in the court docket with some scientific errors: For example, the draft called the LHC a linear accelerator (it isn't) and said that the collider wouldn't smash nuclei together (it will). That drew Wagner's derision: "They're just being way off the wall on the facts," he told me.

Kaufman said Glashow independently caught mistakes in the draft document, and the errors will be fixed in the final copy.

When I spoke with Glashow, he said he hoped the friend-of-the-court brief would add an extra bit of gravity to the legal proceedings - and lead to the speedy dismissal of a "frivolous" lawsuit.

"It's wasting lots of time and effort to argue against this, but I think it's important to dispose of this as soon as possible," he told me.

Dueling documents
If the case goes forward, there will likely be a flurry of scientific papers cited by both sides. Glashow and the other would-be friends of the court cite one yet-to-be-published paper titled "Exclusion of Black Hole Disaster Scenarios at the LHC." The three German physicists behind the research look at the different scenarios for the growth of black holes and contend that the collider couldn't put a black hole on a world-threatening course.

Meanwhile, Wagner's retort to the friends of the court cites another unpublished paper titled "On the Potential Catastrophic Risk From Metastable Quantum-Black Holes Produced at Particle Colliders." This paper, written by German astrophysicist Rainer Plaga, contends that tiny black holes could conceivably emit harmful radiation soon after they were produced, and that such phenomena would "remain undetectable in astrophysical observations."

Wagner's most recent filings also cite warnings about the LHC's risks from German chemist Otto Rössler. Those warnings have gotten so much press lately that a group of leading quantum physicists in Germany, known as the Committee for Elementary Particle Physics, recently issued a letter countering Rössler's claims.

"There is no way that the LHC will produce black holes capable of swallowing up the Earth," the letter read, according to a report on Spiegel Online. "This claim is based on extremely well tested theories of physics and on observations of the cosmos."

The University of Wuppertal's Peter Mättig told Spiegel Online that he didn't think many people took the doomsday fears seriously. "But it is notable how often we have been asked about the problem," he said. "And we especially want to refute those, like Dr. Rössler, who try to use science to back up their claims."

Even as the hearing date nears on the topics of black holes, strangelets and magnetic monopoles, Wagner told me he is gearing up for a new challenge to LHC operations, on the grounds that the builders haven't fully considered the possibility that a wayward beam of protons could touch off an explosive "fusion propagation wave."

CERN says the LHC is designed to cope with particle beams that go astray. Here's how the question is addressed in the organization's file of frequently asked questions:

"... The beam of particles has the energy of a Eurostar train traveling at full speed, and should something happen to destabilize the particle beam there is a real danger that all of that energy will be deflected into the wall of the beam pipe and the magnets of the LHC, causing a great deal of damage. The LHC has several automatic safety systems in place that monitor all the critical parts of the LHC. Should anything unexpected happen (power or magnet failure, for example) the beam is automatically 'dumped' by being squirted into a blind tunnel where its energy is safely dissipated. This all happens in milliseconds - the beam, which is traveling at 11,000 circuits of the LHC per second, will complete less than three circuits before the dump is complete."

To research his claims, Wagner is reaching back to the 1940s, the golden age of nuclear paranoia, when Edward Teller and two other physicists wrote a report discussing the idea that nuclear bombs could set Earth's atmosphere on fire. (They concluded it wasn't possible because the bombs weren't powerful enough.) The long-classified report, known as LA-602, recently came up for discussion on the Overcoming Bias blog.

You might get the impression from all this that Wagner just doesn't like the LHC, no matter what anyone says. "It's not that I don't like it," he insisted. "In fact, I think it's wonderful ... if it's done safely."

Will it all be over in a couple of weeks? Or will it just be starting? Feel free to add your insights below - but do try to make them insightful, OK?

Update for 1:10 p.m. ET Aug. 20: Symmetry Breaking's David Harris points to a fresh explanation of the black-hole controversy, penned by Michael Peskin from the Stanford Linear Accelerator for APS Physics and titled "The End of the World at the Large Hadron Collider?" Harris writes that "Peskin's viewpoint summarizes the main arguments admirably clearly."

More from the frontiers of physics:

  • From Oak Ridge National Laboratory: America's fusion future ... Under the neutron microscope.

  • From the ITER project: Fusion when? ... Fusion's fortress.

  • From Canada's TRIUMF lab: Inside the supernova machine.
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    Comments

    Well, good luck with the activities - I guess... and if it turns out bad, nice knowing you all.
    There will always be nay-sayers, always be people who are fearful of change and the unknown.  I truly don't understand how in 2008 we give credence to fringe, inexpert opinions and give them enough credence to force a defense of sound, proven scientific knowledge.  What we find out from this new Collider could provide insights into an array of information, including dark matter, the properties of black holes, and even the energy of the universe which seems unlimited.  The vast majority of experts in the field believe this will be a major leap forward in our understanding of the universe.  They have determined there is no threat.  Dismiss the lawsuit, hold Wagner in contempt, and lets move on.  
    I'm guessing they're only trying to determine the "accountable parties" for purposes of legal service of documents. Because if the world *did* end from something the LHC did, who would sue and who would collect?
    Knowledge is power and power corrupts and absolute power absolutely corrupts...what price will be paid for this knowledge...will we find what we were looking for....yes we will and what price will that knowledge cost.
    Doesn't it seem that this issue is actually becoming a test of just how much the public is prepared to accept prescient scientific knowledge.
    Do we really know enough to mess with this?
    Does anyone but the Folks here know about this topic?
    If you believe, find the film of Johnny Von Neumann in the bunker, waiting to see if his calculations RE no terminal chain reaction upon detonation of the A-Bomb were correct.
    He was close to wetting his britches.
    How much energy will be created when two particles (even though at a very small scale) collide when each is moving at nearly the speed of light?

    I am not sure I would like to find out.
    I suppose if we aren't willing to take risks then we will never know how far we can advance as a society both technologically and socially. My question here is "How will these new discoveries help us or hurt us and is the risk, no matter how large or small, worth it?" It is one thing to grow' it is another to destroy.
    I'm embrassed that these plaintiffs are from the US. Anybody who buys into these concerns is a fool unworthy of membership in the human race.
    As an undergraduate in astrophysics, this case just shows how little the plaintiffs actually know.  The solar wind and cosmic rays slam into the moon all the time with much more power then the LHC could ever produce.  The moon has been sitting there in space for over 4 billion years and hasn't been swallowed by a black hole or turned into a some kind of subatomic goop.  What this really is about is attention getting, fear mongering anti-science bull.  This is the same mentality that locked Galileo up for his discoveries or the same mentality tries to replace the way biology is taught with 'intelligent design' in schools.  Anyone with half a brain should realize this lawsuit is frivolous.  You don't need to be a nobel laureate to figure that out.
    Why get all hot and bothered? Half of Americans think that god will cure terminal illness if you prey. We let W into office twice. Can humanity really be worth saving?  I for one would rather go out searching for true knowledge than be shackled by the ignorance and prejudice that our brethren of faith seem to prefer.
    Their concerns are well-founded in my opinion, regardless of what the experts think. At the end of the day, all science, no matter how absolute we believe in it, is human theory. There's no way of knowing exactly what will happen when the accelerator comes online - if we did, then why would we bother building and using it?
    I agree with who ever wrote this comment:

    "Knowledge is power and power corrupts and absolute power absolutely corrupts...what price will be paid for this knowledge...will we find what we were looking for....yes we will and what price will that knowledge cost."

    This is just like the creation of the A bomb. In my opinion it has just been a wate of money. Just imagine what we as the human race could have done to solve the world's problems with all the money that has gone to create and develop and also build "Shields" to protects us from the very same thing that was supposed to make the world a better place?
    I played a very small part in the LEM program.  There were very knowledgeable people, at that time, who were absolutely convinced that the Lander and crew would sink and disappear into the lunar soil because it had been pulverized by meteorites in a fine talcum-like powder.  Sometimes people just like to bitch and grab a little spotlight.
    I wonder how many people on this planet could have been fed, clothed, and given medical care with the money that will be spent to make and run this machine....
    This is so cool,that we could be standing on the threshold of infinity.There is a few other things to look at though.What if we are able to harness a new kind of energy,and on the other hand the bible does say that the next time the earth will be purged by fire, well if this collider has this much power then I say damn the torpedeos and full speed ahead Good Luck to all Americans and via con dehois I hope
    All I know is the end of the world is slated for December, 2012.  This CERN/DOE project is just one more thing to add credence to the thought that humankind will bring about it's own undoing.  How ironic would that be?  Einstein once lamented, pondering the thought of how his works unlocked the power of the atom and the nuclear age, "If I had only known, I would've been a locksmith".  We may not have the benefit of hindsight on this one if it goes amok.
    If Mr. Wagner expects to get some sort of absolute safety guarantee, it will never happen. There's a degree of risk in everything that's impossible to eliminate. You can only minimize it to an extent. Given Mr. Wagner's apparent obsession with Doomsday senarios, even though they have been disproven in the past, it seems unlikely he will never be satisfied with any safety assurances he may get from officials of the LHC or the courts. It seems to me, any decision not in his favor will probably result in yet another challenge involving a different disaster prediction.
    Please...let's not assume that since "the majority of experts" believe something is true, it is.  If this was the case, we wouldn't have terms like "Superseded scientific theories" for this is a THEORY (even if it is "...based on extremely well tested theories of Physics...")until it actually happens.  Wasn't that long ago that space was supposedly filled with ether.
    Let's round up all the nukes on earth and load them on a spaceship and drive it into the sun. The quest for energy related knowledge is surely worth the risk.
    I kinda hope the darn thing blows it all to hades. Of course I'm being sarcastic. Just the possibility of what they say might happen should be reason enough to shut it down. Go gain knowledge in another field, like hydrogen power, cancer research...something freakin useful.
    Creating a Black Hole and sustaining it are two very different things.  I don't belive they have the capacity to sustain such a large amount of energy.  At best they will touch the surface and spend decades studying the information collected.
    So many idiots with so few soapboxes on which to grandstand.

    To the lady who wants to know how many poor souls could have been fed with the money that was used to build the LHC, well tens of thousands could have been fed for weeks at least. . . . and then they would be hungry again with hands out and begging for more.  People, this is a tool for learning the secrets of our universe.  It promises to unlock the mysteries that may one day provide us power, food, transportation to worlds beyond.  Who knows what might be discovered, it is still waiting to be found.  Don't be short-sighted and don't allow cowardice and ignorance to imped the work of the educated and brave.  Relax  . . . the world is not going to end.
    This device has the power to unlock energy and potential beyond our wildest dreams making it worth one million times the cost to make it. However, the problem is that miniscule black holes can engulf entire galaxies in their lives purely because of their extreme mass as everybody knows. Therefore, there's good news even in the face of bad news. Either the device helps to better humanity or we all die a hopefully quick death because of how fast we'd be sucked into the black hole. Besides, I'd kinda like to see light be stretched like silly putty :D
    Looking back at the past, when technology and science were in their seeming infancy, and were accepted as quite sophisticated in their time just as ours is today- those people who challenged that accepted wisdom long ago were also called cooks and crazies and nay-sayers for daring to stand against the truths of their time and challenge them.

    Sometimes common sense comes before the proof is available to dispute a claim.

    Why the rush?  
    Although I don't think any real benefit will come from this research, I personally am not too worried about it. My wife, however, with her degree in childhood development, has expressed concern that it might destroy the world. These elitists with PhDs in astrophysics and such may well have investigated the doomsday/Armageddon/bye-bye Earth/everybody dies scenarios and feel certain that the collider is perfectly safe, but it's too bad they didn't have degree's in psychology. If they did they would have thought of the psychological harm this could cause to countless people. After 9/11 there was a documented spike in drugs such as Prozac all the way to California. These subatomic black holes can't be kept in a bottle. They will go missing and the researchers will say,"Oh, don't worry, they dissipate with (theoretical)Hawkings radiation", but others will wonder if there are tiny black holes eating away at the center of the Earth, eventually swallowing it whole.  Whether any increase in physcotropic drugs is small, world wide, or just limited to my wife, these folks are responsible.  

    Here's the basic problem-- and incredible danger with this machine in a nutshell:    according to Cern's own downloadable literature (FAQ's in LHC- The Guide) the dangers of the LHC are dismissed because the reactions only "make the energy of the motion of a flying mosquito..."   BUT...CERN also says (pge. 25 )"in the collision, the temperature will exceed 100,000 times that of the center of the sun."    
    I'm sure everyone reading this would certainly agree that's mighty hot temperature-- even if it's located in Switzerland.   I think it would be extremely helpful if professional journalists/science experts such as Mr. Boyle would further examine (and discuss) the risks associated with temperatures "100,000 times that of the center of the sun" here on good ol' planet Earth.    AND, if such temperatures are possible, what safeguards are in place to protect us from the reactions if they go awry (such as the earlier accident during the building of the LHC).    
    Kudos, by the way, MSNBC, for being one of only a few global media outlets looking into the launch of  the LHC.  

    [ALAN ADDS: Thanks for the good word ... yes, it's a bit confusing to keep all the superlatives straight. The collisions are due to occur with maximum energy of 14 trillion electron volts (TeV). That means two beams hitting each other, each with energy of 7 TeV. When you're talking about one proton hitting another at an energy of 1 TeV, that's equivalent to the energy expended by a flying mosquito. But CERN also says that when the bunches of billions of protons collide with each other, that's equivalent to the force of two bullet trains slamming into each other at 100 mph.

    [As for the temperature, that temperature reading would be correct, but we're talking about that scale of heating in a vanishingly small volume. In this sense, the collisions will be like the phenomenon known as sonoluminescence, which involves mere bubbles in liquid. (A supposed manifestation of this known as "bubble fusion" got a scientist in hot water recently.)

    [Here are a couple of links about sonoluminescence and bubble fusion:]

    Tiny bubbles get hotter than the sun
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7082639/

    Panel finds misconduct by fusion scientist
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25740120/

    My Gods. We have schools without enough teachers and books and money to buy student lunches. We have poverty and homelessness and diseases. We have people with no healthcare, sick children and people who can't afford life saving medications. We have people in this world who are suffering from a lack of fresh water and nutrient rich foods. Places where people work for pennies an hour just to be able to feed their famlies something every day. We are a greedy, immature, selfish and wasteful race. Of all the things for our countries to pool their resources together to pay for, this multi-billion dollar project took priority over all the rest.

    If this LHC does destroy us- we will have deserved it.
    I agree with (PAQ Pepperell MA).  I'd rather die searching for truth. Don't waste time worrying about it, because if we do go - it will be soooo fast we wont even realize were gone. One millisecond your walking your dog - the next millisecond you don't exist.
    I feel it is wrong to trial a european organization in the United States. I would also believe it is wrong to trail a United States Organization in Europe. These "nay-sayers" have no knowledge of anything these people are doing except what the press is releasing. I'm doubting we'll learn anything substantial from these experiments, but it's not U.S. money so i'm not too worried.
    I have just one question. Will this research help the world today or will it help it along to its death? I figure there are bundles of money involved and brilliant people working on this.  They are in a kitchen, get them out into the real world where they may see where their efforts may make a difference in the world today. This outer world stuff can wait. First take care of business at home!
    "I wonder how many people on this planet could have been fed, clothed, and given medical care with the money that will be spent to make and run this machine...."

    we spend more PER MONTH on the Iraq War:
    Cost to build the LCH: about $9.4 billion
    Cost of Iraq War (So far): over $540 billion

    you do the math. and don't be angry at the people who actually are seeking to expand human knowledge and create better technologies that COULD help needy people.


    I don't ever recall the world giving the US legal system control over what their citizen do.  Once again, we have US suing other organization or government, as if they have the right.  We don't like it when other get into our affairs.  Don't be a hater, cause you didn't develop the damn thing.  It was nice knowing you, if the world does get swallowed up, though.
    There is nothing that can be done about fearful opponents. They will always concoct a rationale for their fear, once a credible reason is put forth and even though it is later fully and easily refuted.

    Still, I blame those who call the supposed problem a "microscopic black hole" for the static. If the effect did in fact take place, the resulting event horizon would be several orders of magnitude smaller than an electron. We know better than to call an electron "microscopic" (eg. can [only] be seen with a microscope). Using the term with the theoretical black hole is misleading. It makes people think the thing might be something like a micrometer in diameter. One that size would indeed pose a threat. Something so small that can pass through atoms' electron clouds for thousands of years before ever hitting a single electron is not microscopic.
    janaya, the most energetic cosmic rays (single atomic nuclei traveling at relatavistic speeds) can carry the energy of a good fastball (baseball), which is pretty amazing considering how tiny it is.
    The LHC doesn't come close to those energies for a collision, the physicists would love to have something that did have those energies.
    the difference is that the collisions can be made to happen in a place where the huge devices for observing the results of these collisions are, and that is not going to happen with an occasional random cosmic ray.
    Every few years something comes along to make people afraid of progress. Stem Cells. X-Rays. The Microscope. The Telescope. Hell, even moveable type. Someone was going to split the atom. I, for one, am glad it was us.  No self-respecting scientist will support the concept of a miniature quantum singularity. Does anyone out there know why? duh! No matter how hard religions or governments try to stop them, people will think. Mass ignorance is not an option. It never has been and it never will be. Ask Crick. Ask Einstein. Ask Copernicus. Ask Luther. Ask Euclid. Ask yourself.
    Perfect Hollywood material -- would make a great blockbuster movie!!! Can't wait for the opening day!
    One way or the other, this thing will go through.  Whether we destroy all of mankind (Earth) or help unlock the basis of our universe, this is eventually going to happen.  We can't stop the advancement of science.  In the past society has always had a dark face on science.  It will be the demise of us all, but yet it hasn't happened.  There are very few of us with nearly the knowledge of these scientists, and yet, we feel like we know what is actually happening.  All we fear is the unknown.  If we never moved forward on experiments such as this, we wouldn't be where we are today.  Understanding our world.  This is a collaboration of scientists from different countries and different fields.  I think they know what they're doing and I'm confident that they've weighed the risks.  We'll revisited this soon and see how silly we sounded.
    I think that it good that one side is working on getting us a better understanding and possibly "enhance or expand" our lives based on knowledge learned, I also think it is good that another has the guts to stand up and take on a fight in 'OUR" best interests. The sad part is this learning exercise has proven that one fraction can impose a timeline without our direct input as we sit 8000 miles away. Say “I” built this thingy that “I” believe will change the world and low and be hold I was wrong, what mechanism is in place for the Global community to ensure they have  Input, Day, Guidance in insuring our destiny remains intact?
    Widows Son
    John.
    People are being fed, clothed, and given medical, as well as housing, transportation and other things with the money being spend on building and running this machine.  It's called salaried jobs.  Furthermore, money spent with those salaries pay for other people jobs, and so on.  If the money was simply distributed to those only in need, then productive people would have nothing to spend, and we would all be poor.  The same nonsense was tendered over the space effort.  Nothing was spent in space.  It was all spent here, and from it we have our desktop computers, cell phones, modern medicine, whole industries, and an ever growing source of wealth.  Just as with the frivolous lawsuits, giving the money to those in need is  another tired old myth that keeps churning around.
    How ignorant can a civilization get. I think it would have been better if that meteor that landed on Jupitor had hit earth. These so called human species are lower than animals. They do not want to progress above mass murderers. They have been killing and slaughtering each other for so long it has become entertainment. Lay off jackasses and let the only intelligence on earth carry on their discoveries into what makes for the cancer of earth. Ignorance is the only thing that will bring an end to civilization not science.
    Isn't it the current scientific consensus that black holes are collapsed stars?  How would a machine collapse a star on Earth?  Wouldn't the uncollapsed star destroy us just as well?  The black hole claim is as silly as claiming that the collider will create supermassive rubber duckies that will squash all life.
    Kyle is absolutely correct. Not only have these "high" energy particles collided with the moon, but they have also collided with earth; and, the last time I checked, we are still here. Anti-science movements are often spawned through ignorance and untestable emotional rhetoric. Unfortunately, scientists often neglect these assaults on thinking to their detriment. Humans love microwave ovens and cell phones, but fail to understand where or how these things originate. By extending this argument, humans also love the results of the scientific method and critical thinking, but fail to understand how the scientific method or critical thinking is applied. If the LHC performs as expected, then we are likely to discover processes that will lead us down a path of energy independence. If it performs unexpectedly, then they will simply shut it down. Again, to reiterate, quantum singularities are produced already by particles striking the earth; and, the earth has yet to resemble Swiss cheese. Now expand this thought to 13 billion years of current physical processes. If the naysayers are correct, then there should be massive numbers of these tiny black holes (incidentally, I think here on out these small black holes should be named similarly to subatomic particles and be called weensies or perhaps teeny weenies, sorry I couldn’t help but make a crude joke).
    we as humans are just out of the jungle. If it is bigger and smashes better, someone will build it, and someone will turn it on.
    Since we are discussing absolutely new research I don't understand the confidence of those who say those who oppose this project are fools or fringe holders of inexpert opinions.  What happens in space every day and what may or may not happen in totally different conditions in that CERN collider may be two different things.  There would be no reason for these experiments if science knew exactly what was going to happen.  Would these scientists ever step back from the brink of a possible disaster, having spent all this money?  Can we trust them to know "when"?
    Attorney welfare at the expense of good science - so whats new?
    During World War II some scientists believed that when the A-bomb was exploded it would destroy the earth. One theory suggested that it would catch the atmsophere on fire. That was sixty-three years ago.
    Nothing bad will happen for sure.
    But, if actually happens, it would be the best means of achieving the real Nirvana.
    Many of you really don't have common sense, with the bomb for example, the other side was developing the bomb at the same time we were, we all know that if we would have given up there would have been about 200,000 to 400,000 soldiers dead if the war continued without the bomb. And if the other side had the bomb and we gave up. todays world would be a much difference place. Listen for all things in life of death there must be alway a balance. The way thing are know we are as whole about 50 years behind our development due to people screaming that the world is flat.
    Any time we have a topic like this there are people who express the thought that the money would be better spent fighting world hunger, homelessness, or some other social issue du jour.  The response is generally that these projects result in a net gain for those social issues.  We could have directed research money to food distribution and fed 100,000 people once, a noble cause.  Instead the research resulted in an improved food supply which will feed 500,000 for their entire lives.  If you feel the need to post the sentiment that the money should go elsewhere, after all these are generally good causes, please have the decency and intelligence to state how much money is being spent for the research and how much is already being spent on your cause generally.  (Governmental funds, not private sector.)  DOE contribution $200 M for construction over 12 years before overruns, let’s say 25 million per year.  US funding to third world countries $15 B for AIDS (5 years or 3 Billion per year),  Food for Peace $1.2 B FY2004 alone.  We’re spending about 50 times as much to feed people as to do this research.  Past research has proven to be critical to being able to feed them now.  Would you really rather have $51 dollars go where $50 is going now and give up future developments that might make that $50 go 10 times as far?  Also, let us know that you make six figures but live in poverty yourself so that others can eat.
    Francisco G Watsonville CA,
    And yet at its use in war it was heralded as saving how many lives?  If money wasn’t being spent on nukes how many tanks would’ve been built instead?  Are you saying that without atomic weapons we would have all been friends and played nice?  

    Cay, Milford, CT,
    It’s one thing to wonder and another to pursue knowledge.  The amount of money spent on this is dwarfed by the amount of money spent to feed, clothe and treat people.  And again, though it’s already been said many times, pursuing technologies like this in the past is why so many are being fed now.  To take the money going toward this research and use it to feed, clothe and treat people one time and give up the knowledge we would otherwise gain that will feed, clothe and treat them in and for the future.  It’s in line with “Give a man a fish and you feed him once, teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.”  I wonder how wise or how stupid it would be to give up this research and it’s potential gains for society for a tiny bit more humanitarian work than we’re already doing.


    "Erwin Schrödinger",
    Nobody has ever “slated” the world for an end in 2012 with more credibility than a five year old.  Unless the calendar I’m using right now has the world slated for an end on Dec. 31, 2008.  And if that’s the case then the calendar I was using last year was just wrong.  And the one before that.  And the one before that.  And so on.  It doesn’t lend much credence to the accuracy of calendars.
    At great speed these particles will appear to have more mass than they have at rest.  This is worked out as a momentum, a mass of kinetic energy.  We've been moving particles pretty fast for a while.  Does anybody know if this apparent mass shows up as a gravitational mass also.  I’ve just been wondering this for the last couple of days and haven’t done any checking.  Thought someone might have seen some research results or know of a lab taking measurements.


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