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The benefits of black holes

Posted: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 3:48 PM by Alan Boyle


CERN
A simulation shows the pattern of
particles that scientists think could
be produced by a micro black hole.

What good is a microscopic black hole, and why would you make one on Earth? Can a black hole ever really be safe, even if it's the size of a quark?

Michelangelo Mangano is a theoretical physicist at Europe's CERN particle-physics center, where black holes could conceivably be created as early as next year, and such questions have taken up his time for many months.

In an exclusive Q&A, he provides answers on a cosmic scale.

Mangano is one of the authors of CERN's latest safety report for the Large Hadron Collider, which is destined to become the world's most powerful atom-smasher. The 17-mile-round underground ring on the French-Swiss border is being readied for its official startup next month or so, but the proton-on-proton action isn't likely to reach its peak energy of 14 trillion electron volts, or 14 TeV, until next year.

At that level, there's a chance that the LHC might create microscopic black holes - as well as supersymmetric dark-matter particles, quark-gluon plasma, the elusive Higgs boson (a.k.a. the "God Particle") and other exotic stuff. It was Mangano's job to update past safety reports that concluded particle colliders like the LHC posed no risk of sparking a cosmic catastrophe (for example, creating the planet-gobbling variety of big black holes).

Those previous studies took the view that micro black holes would almost instantly wink out of existence, based on the claim that black holes lost energy through a phenomenon called Hawking radiation. But critics complained that the evidence for Hawking radiation was less than rock-solid - and for that reason, a couple of those critics filed a federal lawsuit seeking the suspension of work on the LHC.


Courtesy of M. Mangano
Michelangelo Mangano
is a physicist at CERN.

Answering that criticism, Mangano and a colleague of his from the University of California at Santa Barbara, Steve Giddings, wrote a heavy-duty research paper asserting that the LHC posed no catastrophic risk, even if you assumed that micro black holes remained stable and didn't emit Hawking radiation. The Giddings-Mangano study, or "GM paper," drew high praise from a panel of experts who endorsed CERN's safety report.

The most dedicated critics may not be satisfied, but Mangano hopes that the latest findings should reassure reasonable observers that particle colliders pose no threat. The Italian-born 46-year-old also hopes that he can now get back to some semblance of a normal life, although I have a feeling he's going to be kept busy at least until the LHC reaches its top energy of 14 TeV.

This week, Mangano discussed in detail what led him to conclude that Earth was safe - and explained how microscopic black holes could spark a scientific revolution. Here is an edited transcript:

Q: What new research did you conduct on this question about what the Large Hadron Collider will do, and how does it apply to this controversy over black holes?

A: We took on the suggestion that black holes could be stable, even though the overwhelming majority of experts don’t take this as a serious possibility. It’s quite clear, if you just do some simple estimates, that even in the scenario in which black holes are stable, you should be able to rule out any possible problem. Anything that could destroy the earth cannot just happen on earth, it would have to be able to happen somewhere else. So we just went around and identified what seemed to be the most promising systems we could look at, to establish this connection. In fact, many scenarios can be ruled out directly by the fact that they would have already destroyed the earth or the sun.  But for certain scenarios you need to consider other objects.

Dense objects like white dwarfs and neutron stars seemed to be the best possible candidates, because they’re very dense, and therefore if you produce black holes from cosmic rays, they would be stopped by those objects. Since they are dense, the black hole would eat matter at the highest rate. It would tend to consume such objects much faster than it would consume the earth. So we studied how stable black holes would change lifetimes of these objects.

The crucial point is this: The black holes that could be produced by the LHC would be very, very small objects. Now, the black hole absorbs matter that gets in its way, right? If you assume that the black hole only eats whatever falls into its trajectory, you find out that it would take a nearly infinite amount of time before it could do any damage to earth. It just cannot grow fast enough, because it’s too small.

The only way that you could actually do something macroscopic is by drawing in matter from a much, much larger distance. Since this is the condition under which a black hole can become dangerous, and since it requires the distance at which it affects the matter surrounding it to be large, you only need to understand very basic features of how a black hole works. The starting point for this research is to assume our ignorance about the quantum state of a black hole – whether it’s stable, whether it decays, whether there is Hawking radiation.

We know that in order for the black hole to do anything macroscopic, it has to behave as a big object. It has to have an effect at a large distance. But at a large distance, we don’t worry about the microscopic state of a black hole. It’s all electromagnetism, it’s fluid dynamics, it’s the standard physics that we know very well.

We can arrive at very solid conclusions that do not presume knowledge of physics beyond the Standard Model on a microscopic scale. This is the main contribution, if you wish, of our work – aside from working out the implications of these observations in detail.

Q: But how did you match up your conclusions about the macroscopic effects of a black hole with observations of the universe itself? Did you do a survey of neutron stars?

A: We know what the rate of cosmic rays is, how they permeate the galaxy. Then we look at very specific neutron stars or, better yet, white dwarfs. We’re not doing a statistical analysis. We’re merely looking at a specific object. And we ask ourselves, “How long has that object been there?” For example, we have a very reliable estimate of the age of a white dwarf, based on its temperature and mass – macroscopic parameters that are well-measured and well-understood by astronomers.

And then we ask, “How many cosmic rays with energy beyond the energy of the LHC have hit that star, and how many black holes would have been produced inside that object, if black holes can be produced at the LHC?” We find numbers that are very large – numbers that are in the hundreds, in the thousands.

In parallel, we calculate how long one of these black holes would take to destroy that object. And we find numbers that are on the order of anything between a few years and perhaps a hundred thousand years or 1 million years. It’s basically impossible that this star had not been hit by a cosmic ray that would have produced a black hole. And if it produced a black hole that was capable of consuming the star, the star would be gone. It would not be there.

Q: Maybe we can back up a bit and ask how a microscopic black hole is created in a particle accelerator. Does the impact of the protons lead to the gravitation collapse of a particle to such a degree that it creates a black hole, like a star collapsing? Or is it a different mechanism?

A: It’s slightly different. Two quarks – one quark from one proton, the other from the other proton – come together with the very high energy that they inherit from the protons that contain them. They come very, very close to each other. From Einstein’s theory of general relativity, we know that it’s the energy density that curves spacetime. It’s the mass in E=mc2. If you have mass, or you have energy, it’s the same. So if you manage to concentrate enough energy in a very small amount of space, then you curve spacetime, and beyond a given curvature you create a small spatial region that we call a black hole.

This isn’t like the collapse of a star, where you have no radiative pressure after running out of fuel and it falls onto itself under its own gravitational field. Here, it’s shooting two particles very close to each other at very high energy to create this huge energy density.

Now, if we just have the universe as we currently know it, in order to create such a spacetime region, it would require an amount of energy that is 1 million billion times bigger than the LHC. That’s energy on the order of 1019 GeV [giga electron volts] – much higher than anything that is achievable today.

On the other hand, some speculative theories say that there are more dimensions in addition to the four dimensions of the regular universe we know. If those theories are true, then the force of gravity could become much stronger at very short distances. The gravitational force between these two particles would become much bigger. Therefore, there would be a much higher potential for curving spacetime and producing this black hole even with energies as low as those accessible at the LHC.

So in order for the LHC to produce some of these black holes, we really have to go beyond the normal theory of gravity. We have to assume that there are extra dimensions. By the way, there are many theories that have extra dimensions. Not all of them would give rise to black holes at the LHC. It’s only highly fine-tuned ones that make this possible.

Q: How would these black holes be detected? I assume that you wouldn’t detect them directly, but you’d detect them through their decay products.

A: This is true of pretty much every particle that we produce at this accelerator. Even the top quark is not detected directly, because it decays within 10-24 seconds. What we see are the decay products. It’d be the same for a black hole. It would decay on a time scale that is about a factor of thousands smaller than that of the top quark. The main feature of a black hole decay is that there would be no bias in the particles coming out of the decay.

The final state would be relatively spherical, with no specific direction. There’d be a uniform distribution, with many highly energetic particles of all different kinds: electrons, muons, quarks, photons. This is something that the typical proton-proton collision would not give rise to. It would be a very distinctive signature.

Q: Is there any expectation of how long it might take to have a confirmed detection of black holes? Does it usually take a couple of years?

A: This would be a very spectacular signature. The number of events would be quite large. So it’s not unreasonable that two or three years could be enough to draw this conclusion. It all depends on the mass, because if the black holes exist, they cannot be arbitrarily light. Otherwise we would have seen them already at the Tevatron.

We haven’t seen them at the Tevatron, so they have to be at least a few TeV. In fact, from other collider limits on extradimensional gravity, we know they must have mass higher than about 5 TeV. If they are close to this, their production rate would be large, and they would be produced abundantly early on. Given the spectacular nature of the final state, I believe there could be a conclusion within a couple of years.

In fact, it could be easier than detecting the Higgs boson. We talk a lot about the Higgs, but the Higgs is not the simplest thing to observe. Supersymmetry could be discovered before the Higgs. Extra dimensions and black holes could be discovered before the Higgs.

Q: And because black holes would imply that extra dimensions exist, that would be a signal achievement for physics. Would that provide the first evidence that all this crazy talk about extra dimensions is true?

A: That would certainly be the most compelling indication that indeed we live in more than four dimensions. Philosophically, that would be at the same level as special relativity or quantum mechanics. That would be a major revolution in our view of the universe – well beyond the Higgs, well beyond supersymmetry and anything else that we have thought of.

Q: I know this is the question that physicists hate, but would there be any implications for daily life? Could extra dimensions lead to new energy sources, for example?

A: I really have no idea what we could get out of extra dimensions. But there is one element of our universe that we don’t understand very well, and that is gravity. Being able to do experiments exposing extra dimensions would for the first time provide us with a new observatory for gravity.

So far, the only place where we can measure gravity is in the macroscopic universe, where we measure the motion of planets and other large objects, or the expansion of the universe itself. But it all follows from the same law of gravity: Newton’s law or, if you wish, Einstein’s theory of general relativity. By looking at how spacetime works at very short distances, we get an entirely different picture. God knows what we will uncover.

All of these discussions about traveling forward and backward in time, or wormholes, you name it – all of these ideas, however bizarre, if they work at all, could be exposed by phenomena in the framework of extra dimensions.

When we’re talking about the proton-proton collisions at the LHC, one manifestation of extra dimensions would be the production of black holes. Maybe there are other manifestations. Maybe you could alter the fabric of spacetime, for example. But again, the risk is something we can rule out, because destroying the fabric of spacetime is not something that would happen only at the LHC. If you look at the much more energetic cosmic-ray collisions taking place out there in the universe, if any of those had created a problem with spacetime, we would know it by now.

So when I say “we don’t know what will happen,” it doesn’t mean we have a new source of uncontrollable risk. I’m simply saying that the picture of the universe that we will see could be very interesting.

You know, 5 billion years from now, the sun is going to blow up. There is nothing we can do about that. This will be worse than global warming. It will be worse than a meteorite hitting Earth. If we want to survive for more than 5 billion years, we have to find a way out of this place – and the way to get out of this place is not just by building more powerful rockets. We have to understand more about spacetime and how to travel in a much more efficient way.

I’m not saying this will come out of the LHC. But it’s quite clear that, if it finds black holes, the LHC will be one of the steps in this direction.

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Comments

Great article on a fascinating subject!!!  Thank you many times over for your continuing coverage of this important story.  Suggestions for future topics might include the Atlas and Alice experiments and plans for the International Linear Collider.  The discussion of the risks also creates focus for the opportunities.  I don't dismiss the risks as insignificant because there are too many examples throughout history that demonstrate error only after it is too late:  e.g., Nazi Germany, global warming, nuclear proliferation etc.  Hopefully, the LHC will prove to be a Library of Alexandria, not a Tower of Babel.
If we manage to create a microscopic black hole in the fabric of space and time, it may continue to grow exponentially in size and rapidness (at the rate of the universe's expansion), consuming everything around it. Sayonara! This surely shall destroy this beautiful place we call home, our universe as we know it. Are we willing to take that chance?
Ray Smith brought up a good point about the fire extinguisher.  What about antimatter?  Would there be enough attraction to matter-matter do draw it into the anomaly should things go terribly awry?

Also Billy Bob brings up a good question, what is a black hole?  I've been giving this some thought and can't get my mind aroun MBHs.  In a high energy collision between two particles as minute as protons.  You look at the maximum system energy as they approach light speed and translate that to mass, and then get an amount of gravity, it just seems too small.  At least for my concept of a black hole coming from stellar collapse.  So what makes a black hole a black hole?
Somone mentioned a "cloud of microscopic black holes."

Both Einstein and Feynman were playful souls, and made some of the most profound contributions to physics and science. (All science eventually boils down to physics, or description of entities moving through time.)

Anyway:

Could it BE possible that:

A cluster of mini-black holes that open and close so quickly, allowing particles to move in AND out of them, produces a sort of reverse gravitational field, hmmm? Why doesn't matter just spontaneously fall apart at the macro level? At a certain microscopic level, it's ionic bonding of atoms into molecules and the repetition and sequencing of molecules that help maintain the form. Still, that's a lot of stuff going on at the microlevel to maintain the perception of consistency in the macro world.

Maybe mini-black holes are all around us, hmmm? Surrounding us. Maybe it's these little black holes that transport sub-atomic particles intradimensionally that determine if something stays together or flies apart. (A thermodynamics model appears to be a better description of a dynamic system versus a pure Newtonian one: Reference Order Out of Chaos by Prigogine - Fascinating Read. Same with QED by Feynman.)
I love the plain and clear way in which he explains why there isn't any real risk (at least due to black holes) from the LHC.  I wish everyone would read this article...
I love science but this is hardly science. Eloquent interview? Yes, but there are too many huge assumptions. The safety issues remain hardly addressed. Quote: “God knows what we will uncover.” This experiment is rather a huge leap of faith. The only conclusion that can be drawn from this interview with the LHC “safety report” author is that the scientists do not know exactly what they are doing and what will happen once the LHC is in operation. They are going scientifically and physically into very dangerous waters in  uncharted territory. They are eager to play with some of the most awesome forces in the universe. Yet, their detectors will produce so much data that it will take years to analyze what really happened, while it has already happened. There needs to be a full-sized, worldwide debate, on the risks versus benefits of this project, presented by scientists, in a worldwide referendum outside of the scientific community.
I'm not a Physicist but what I'm hearing is you got a bunch of unproved theories (assumptions based on assumptions). but you figure everything will be o.k.

I remember that before they tested the first atomic bomb some scientists warned that there was no knowing
if the chain reaction would get out of control and destroy everything, they of course went ahead and did it anyway. anyone under 40, or with children has a stake in the future, "Atlantis redux". We're approaching the next octave.
Studies in progress may tend to further challenge cosmic ray safety arguments which may not have fully explored properties of neutrinos nor fully accounted for the effects of extremely powerful magnetic fields surrounding neutron stars and white dwarfs that may tend to challenge some of the assumptions made.  

Results of such studies may tend to indicate that safety is not yet verified or assured.
Romeo,
You so miss the meaning.  God knows what we'll discover when we open this old diary we just found.  Long lost family recipes, stories of rape and incest, murderous plots, descriptions of the weather, the day to day rumours of a small town recorded for posterity.  Completely unlike what we'll find when we open a copy of The Lord of the Rings.  We already know that story, no surprises.  God knows what we'll uncover - critical information that will lead us to an understanding of the essence of gravity, new understandings about quantum physics that will open up a whole new form of communication that replaces radio waves, the fact that at certain energy levels colliding neutrons make pretty light shows.  The statement means nothing more, and nothing less sinister than what we will find reading a book.  Twisting the meaning into something ominous is a trick common to the paranoid ignorant.  Another chicken little.
Please remember that astrophysicists and the physicists at CERN are often wrong.

And please note that the Big Bang theory is quite wrong (and obviously so).

CNN.com and AP report --
“Scientists plan to hunt for signs of the invisible "dark matter" and "dark energy" that make up more than 96 percent of the universe, and hope to glimpse the elusive Higgs boson, a so-far undiscovered particle thought to give matter its mass.”

The concepts of  “dark matter” and “dark energy” are spurious.  These concepts are based upon the incorrect Big Bang theory.

So what is the purpose of the LHC??  
These quantum blackholes are so small that even ei we created trillions upon trillions of them it would be like all the supermassive blackhole in the universe eating the universe. Even if they were charged they would only stay charged until they ate a few electrons. It would take the whole age of the universe for them to eat the earth don't think?
Okay, this is the kind of data with the paramecium-level explanations that I was hoping for. Let 'er rip!
I used to believe that if we just learned that little bit more then maybe there will be a way out of this place ... well somehow I think it was meant to be that we are marooned within this very thin envelope of an atmosphere on this small unobtrusive planet in a relatively suburban part of our galaxy for a good reason somewhere in an inconcevably large universe.

Perhaps we are spiritual beings having a human experience and not the other way round. Once we open to this idea then the other dimensions are already there for our enjoyment. Have fun - while we can.
im pretty young (16 to be exact) but this is the kind of stuff i love. everyday i wonder about different deminsions that could even be rite next to me. and also other planets in the universe. i wish all the scientist luck. Maybe one day well find that place to move to..
im pretty young (16 to be exact) but this is the kind of stuff i love, blackholes, space and dimensions. everyday i wonder about different deminsions that could even be rite next to me. and also other planets in the universe. i wish all the scientist luck.
If the only way to detect a small black hole produced at LHC is by the decay products, then if it doesn't decay or disperse energy, how will we know one has been produced?
“Seven Seconds to Midnight”
It is truly Ironic that while hundreds of thousands of fellow Homo Sapiens are starving, homeless or being slaughtered as they are in the Sudan,
our greatest scientific minds are focused not on a War on Hunger, Homelessness, or Genocide but on discovering “The God Particle”.

When these people say “fire her up” this is all very exciting for the physicists involved. We’re talking Nobel Prizes, Chairs in prestigious Universitys and big Research Grants etc.,
They view themselves as pioneers akin to those who undertook potentially dangerous research before them; The Wright Brothers, The Craig Breedloves etc., but I believe there is a difference between men risking their own lives on the one hand and scientists risking the stability of our planet and the lives of (6) billion unsuspecting Wo(Men) and children on the other.

According to legend and a respected philosopher named Plato there was once a continent with a highly advanced civilization called “Atlantis” that quite literally disappeared off the face of the earth. Some theories say that they were victims of their own science. Is there a parallel here, are we approaching “the next octave” ?

To the scientists that interject
“that’s just a theory” I respectfully
Submit, that’s exactly what you are working with
“A bunch of theories”.

iota by iota, We are all writing this Story,
A few by commission and most by omission,
While there is still Time, there is still Hope...

Atlantis aside, There is an interesting (if not frightening) precedent for this project, before the detonation of the first atomic bomb some scientists warned of the possibility that the chain reaction could get out of control and destroy everything, well they went ahead and did it anyway.
At least then there was what was perceived as an urgent need.

Is finding the “Higgs Boson” the most urgent issue that needs to be resolved at this point in the history of “genus homo sapiens” ?

Can our brilliant scientists focus on the real and pressing problems in todays world ?, Please,
pretty please with icing on top !!!

I suspect (and not without precedent) that the real danger lies with the knowledge of the cosmic forces that will be gained from this project.
That is; when we learn to harness the energy of the cosmos, that knowledge will be used for the creation of “Weapons of Universal Destruction” for those who may believe that such a thing is too insane for any country to attempt, “Doomsday” devices are already in existence. This is part of a “M.A.D.D.”defense strategy by several countries.
(Mutually Assured Destruction Devices).

this from the CERN website.
“Researchers have some ideas of what to expect /
but also expect the unexpected!”

I have always felt that Einstein could have solved the “Unified Field Equation”, but he knew better than to release that knowledge to this world.

Anyhow, if the LHC* goes bad, it may unintentionally solve our planets most urgent problems of overpopulation, hunger and homelessness by precipitating our demise.

It’s time to reset the atomic clock**,
From now on it’s “seven seconds to midnight”

MARC ROME
New York City

* Large Hadron Collider
** Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists




Marc,
It should be noted that sustained fission requires critical mass and critical geometry, enough fissionable material packed closely enough together.  Going beyond the minimum you can quickly get to supercritical and explosive.  Nuclear explosions generate a lot of heat.  Heat makes fires, not nuclear explosions.  The air is not made up of fissionable material, it lacks critical mass.  The ground has a lot of fissionable material in it but it's separated by vast distances, it has critical mass, but lacks critical density.  Exploding a nuclear weapon on earth will make hot air and hot ground.  You simply can't make potting soil fission.  So, ...
Some people were afraid that the entire earth would get caught up in an unstoppable nuclear reaction.  Those people didn't understand that part about not being able to make potting soil fission.  Some other people did understand that you can't make potting soil fission.  Those other people went ahead and conducted the experiments.  If your grandpa was an auto mechanic and he was afraid that the whole earth might blow up then it's good that he didn't go ahead with the experiments.  But the fears of the uninformed should not stop us from proceeding.  There will always be people with more fear than knowledge.  That's mostly because a lot of scientific stuff requires more knowledge to understand than most people have.  A lot of science is so specialized that a lot of scientists don't have the requisite knowledge to understand it.  Hopefully that means that a lot of cancer researchers don't understand the LHC, and not that a lot of LHC researchers don't understand the LHC.  I've heard it said that we fear the unknown.  This will always be unknown to many.  In 50 years people will blog their concerns about some new experiment and recall how there were concerns but they went ahead and detonated an atom bomb, and there were concerns but they went ahead and fired up the LHC.  In 50 years the people who have the knowledge and understand what they're doing will ignore the ignorant frightened and proceed.

On the social responsibility note, I agree, generally.  But we expect a lot of unknown good to come out of this.  That's the "unexpected" from your citation.  We expect it because we keep getting unexpected good out of research.  So rather than hamstringing scientific efforts, the likes of which have lengthened the quantity and increased the quality of life for millions of people, let's redirect billions of dollars of funds from something that really only benefits a choice few.  Let's take all the money from professional sports and feed the hungry, clothe the naked and cure the sick.  The only good I know of that baseball ever brought us is when we used 1/10 the money tickets to the ballpark would have cost, bought equipment and played it.  The "War on Hunger" is not fought with stadium dogs.
A black hole is nothing more than a space hurricane.
Tim Rommes

I may be responding to your comment a little late but I think you have a major misunderstanding believing that the problem was “Fission” based. The problem was not an issue of Fission but rather that of “Fusion”. You see the argument was that the intense heat and pressure from a Fission explosion (an atomic bomb) would cause the hydrogen that was pervasive in water molecules in the atmosphere (and again later when they performed the underwater “Baker” A-bomb tests) to fuse resulting in a global conflagration. Please understand that the only difference between fusing atmospheric hydrogen and that of a Fusion Hydrogen-Bomb is only in the technical details but the principles are the same. So should we today mock the people that were worried at that time about destroying the planet? Or should we view these people as heroes that had the guts to stand up and force people to realize the potential dangers.

We may not destroy the Earth with a micro black hole this time, but I can say with absolute certainty the time will come when something may indeed threaten OUR planet’s survival and whose fate will rest in the hands of someone crying wolf for real. As far as I am Con-CERN-ed there can never be enough wolf warnings if it makes the people involved step back and rethink / analyze the situation more clearly. There is no reason on Earth for CERN to rush into these tests until everyone who has the technical ability to voice their opinions has a chance in an open unbiased form. I firmly believe that CERN has too much an investment at stake in this project to make an impartial decision therefore the judgment must rest elsewhere and must be binding upon CERN.

I would like to point out to Mr. Michelangelo Mangano (who is one of the Physicists at CERN) that your last statement is somewhat erroneous!

The Sun will not blow up in 5 billion years as you stated in your closing comment. By then it will have SLOWLY expanded into a Red-Giant phase and will have expelled its outer layers of hydrogen into interstellar space (forming what is known as a planetary nebula) and thus becoming a white dwarf. However this predicted solar expansion will have roasted the Earth approximately 1 billion years hence a lot sooner than you’re 5 billion.

By the way, stars that Blow-up are called Nova, Super-Nova, Hyper-Nova, and perhaps a new distinction called by some astronomers as an Anti-Matter-Nova which could be the fate of the star “Eta Carina”.

The point I am raising is that the Physicists at CERN not infallible as your (Planck scale) error points out!  You should not make predictions involving the potential destruction of our Earth base only upon theories, speculations and (worst yet) assumptions. I.e. How do you know that Hawking radiation exists, have you ever seen and measured it? What fail-safes have you implemented incase the micro black hole remains stable? The new GLAST satellite may generate valuable information in this respect; why not wait until you can get some solid evidence from it before performing your experiments? These are but a few of the many questions I am sure you’ve heard a thousand times before, however I have yet to read anything that clearly answers these Con-CERN-s.

I am a firm believer in scientific progress and I expect that CERN will eventually prove to be one of the greatest assets in this regard, but this must be handled with extreme caution as you are walking into a mine-field, there may only be one mine but if you step on it there’s no turning back. In that event at least you’d know that you won’t have to submit to any board of inquiry :)
Philip,
My bad, that was a 3 a.m.-trying-to-stay-awake rant.  The fission part came from another discussion.  Sleep deprivation leaves me easily confused.
However, on the fusion note:
This whole matter was the result of a miscalculation.  Easy enough, I make them all the time.  It was something in the range of this:  I have a chisel and a hammer.  I'm pretty sure it can split stone.  What if I lay my chisel to the bedrock and strike it, might I split the world?  Only it wasn't really that silly.  Much like the concerns of a friend that an atomic explosion might set off ambient reactions that cascade around the globe, ambient reactions almost assuredly happen under the direct influence of a fission explosion, but less than self sustainable.  Also in a fission reaction sufficient heat and pressure exist to produce a fusion reaction, also less than self sustaining in our atmosphere or oceans.  A fission reaction can set off a fusion reaction, the fusion reaction produces heat and pressure, enough to produce a fusion reaction.  That process can only go so far in an expanding pressure wave before the heat and pressure are too dissipated to produce a fusion reaction.  That's why there was some discussion about how much volume would be destroyed.  It's been a long time but I think the range for that type of reaction is about 500 meters, but that might be dependant on the size of the initial fission reaction also.  But very limited.
This is the crux.  The question was raised, it was a good question, it was looked into, it was found to be a non-issue, it was dismissed by the scientists who went on to conduct the experiments.
Now let's talk about child-like fear, or adult-like fear for some people.  If I'm out in the woods in a cabin in an area where I know bears to be present I will have acknowledged the danger that bears pose.  If I wake up in the middle of the night and see a bear in the cabin I'll have to change the sheets, I'll be that scared when faced with the dangerous animal.  A small child will be afraid of the dark because the bear might be there.  In the dark the child can't see that the bear is not there, so there's no way to feel safe.  I'd be scared if a saw a bear, a child would be scared if he didn't see that a bear wasn't there.  Too many people are afraid, not because they know there's something to be afraid of, but because they don't know that it's safe.  Most of them don't know because they can't understand.  Many of those will be afraid as long as there’s one other person who doesn’t understand who’s willing to speak up.  That’s one ignorant voice fueling a lot of ignorant fear.
If you want fear because you can’t know safety sit in the dark.  Incandescent bulbs create an oscillating magnetic field around the glowing coil.  If that oscillating field cracks the fabric of space-time it could open a worm hole to another dimension and allow “them” in.  Just because billions of incandescents haven’t done it yet doesn’t mean it can’t happen, just that it’s a low probability high consequence phenomenon.  The possibilities are catastrophic, so turn off your incandescents.  Fluorescent bulbs use an arc to start emitting light, the arc creates a magnetic pulse, similar to the oscillations above, but only once, that could also fracture space-time.  There’s a much greater risk of a rupture in lightning bolts because they’re bigger, but it’s all about enough stress at a weak enough spot in space-time.  The additional risk, although minimal, of fluorescent lights is simply unacceptable.  Turn those off, too.  Don’t even get me started on vacuum cleaners.
Philip,
I would like to point out that Mr. Michelangelo Mangano’s (who is one of the Physicists at CERN) last statement is somewhat correct!

The Sun will not blow up completely in 5 billion years.  When stars make the transition to white dwarf they do it by blowing off their outer layers.  This is somewhat like having a cannon ball inside a powder keg and setting off the keg.  When the powder explodes and the keg goes every which way as a bunch of splinters that is an explosion, even though the cannon ball doesn’t explode.  When the star blows off it’s outer layers, that is an explosion even though the core doesn’t explode.

Don’t think I don’t appreciate you.  Your comments are both interesting and thought provoking.
why do i see so many of the doomsday responders saying that the whole Hawking Radiation theroy isn't proven and we should stop the LHC?

by my reading of the article I am pretty sure the saftey report said that even if there is no hawking radiation it still wouldn't be a danger.
----
This does have the same feeling of nukes will chain react all of the hydrogen in the atmosphere fears.

The whole idea is this the MBH will be so small that their gravity will not be great enough to draw in any other of the exotic particles that would be created due to the "vast" relative distances in quantum physics. if you think of the distance between the sun and the next nearest star then mutiply by a large factor that is the kind of relative distances we are talking about relative to the quantum scale.
----

I personally don't think MBHs will be produced @ LHC. we might get a unique quantum particle or 2 but with my interested lay persons understaning I don't think there is enough energy.
========================
lastly for the poster concerned about the "wasting" of resources when there are so many social ills that require attention(and funding).
This also has the chance to discover the next energy source that we could use to a Star Trek like utopia that would allow converion of energy to matter and create replicators to produce limitless supply of food and destroy the social & economic systems that we use today. its a long shot but we never know untill we try.
This article scares me a little bit. I understand the risk for total annihilation is very slim ...but the risk is still there ...why would this project even be considered when there is a chance, however small, that the earth could be destroyed?
Ariel,
There is a definite risk that we'll be hit by a meteor of significant size.  There is, now, a definite risk of destroying the planet ourselves because our cars are part of the family.  There is a very great probability of discovering something that saves us from these calamities.  Learn something about gravity and all the sudden we can see that bad boy coming in time to gently steer it away.  Earth saved because we dared to explore.  We could discover some way to clean the atmosphere and truly leave this place cleaner than we found it.  A great gift for future generations.  If you eat food there's a risk of being poisoned.  If you don't eat death is sure.  If you run through the flames of your burning house you might get burned.  If you sit and watch you will almost surely roast like a chicken.  If you really do a risk analysis, aren't the risks of not exploring greater?  This is not always the case, but we sit in so much peril that we can go forth boldly with a small risk of sudden death but great reward of longevity of the species or "play it safe" and ensure a longer time to a more certain end.
The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
"You know, 5 billion years from now, the sun is going to blow up. There is nothing we can do about that."
WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THE GUY !?
As a species we have been around for less than a million years. We manage to acquire reasonably sophisticated technology for the last sixty years, and for less than a century we managed to create so many insurmountable problems that potentially can to lead to our extinction and Mangano is talking about billion years in our future.
I think that our biggest problems come from "trigger happy cowboys" that do not think for the consequences and act on vague deductions. The truth is that we do not know much about our universe and CARN's LHC is a loaded gun in the hands of an ape.
For the sake of humanity, do not let people like this decide our fate.
While breaking for lunch I couldn't help but respond
to this interesting article.  I personally don't think disaster awaits us when CERN is operating at low or full power but lets play..what if.  Possible thousands of interactions at the surface/core etc. of a neutron star that is a few billion years old would equate to an event once every few million or hundreds of thousands of years on average, far less frequent than supernova, mayhaps this explains why we havent seen even one yet, since we have only have had telescopes for a few hundred years. What if within the folded spacetime that we disrupt momentarily in this dimension via the collider, its effect propagates and unfolds a string resulting in it influencing another and another and another....and we end up with a zero point vacuum energy explosion?  I did a calculation once on a cubic meter of space its volume comprised of strings at 10 to the minus 33 meter wavelength, using the energy equation for photons or quantas of energy,  E=h x nue
to calculate the energy of one string then extrapolating that to the whole population of strings in a cubic meter of "empty" space and..voila.. its enough to power our galaxy for a year based on a billion stars putting out 465 million megatons of energy conversion a second average. Go to a conversion table to find out the conversion from pounds/tons/etc. of explosive to ergs of energy. Not only could we take out earth..but the whole galaxy as well:) I guess the what if here is ..what if we accidentaly unfold space not compress it.  Enjoy.
In letters to Micheal a book of correspondence between lucifer and micheal, micheal observes a solar system going..poof!  He writes lucifer and asks him if that was him that destroyed that star planets and civilization.  Lucifer writes back and says basically
..twasnt me..all i gave them were the equations:)
I understand a bunch of u guys are happy and excited over the LHC. I myself must agree it is an amazing acomplishment. But i also have to agree with the person who said, "If something can go wrong, it will go wrong." Are the benefits of this experiment really worth the risks? Compare it to a drunk driver...with six billion passengers. We don't know the outcome. Many of us would prefer that CERN would wait a little bit until they confirm that this is safe. Even if the risk is 1 in a million trillion, there is still a possibility that it may happen. Another worry about the LHC is the possibility of it creating a strangelet. If you don't know what it is just look it up in wikipedia. If a strangelet forms, it may eventually convert Earth into a lump of strange matter. So not worth it. I'm not saying the LHC was a bad idea, but it isn't a good one either. We should be spending that $10 million dollars on something more productive, like fighting global warming, curing cancer, etc. With mankind and the creatures around him at stake, I wouldn't risk it.
Stephan,
The gist of the safety report is that this experiment is already being performed by the universe.  It has been for billions of years and we seem to still be here.  If any of the weird things were going to happen the would be happening naturally.  We can't rule out that they happen, but we can say that if they do happen, they're not dangerous.
Don't compare it to a drunk driver, compare it to a river.  I'm afraid to open the tap in my kitchen.  The water in the pipes is under pressure.  If I open the tap water will come out.  It will flow through the pipes.  What if the friction of flowing causes it to superheat.  On the one hand I could get a drink, on the other hand there could be a steam explosion anywhere in the piping system that may kill thousands.  The risk isn't worth it.  However, I can go to the river and see water flowing over rocks.  More friction there than in a pipe, and that water stays pretty cold.  Water has been flowing in rivers my whole life without so much as a boil.  This is the scale of the argument.  If the water one sounds ridiculous but you give credance to the atom smasher one it's only because you're more familiar with water.  You have personal experience that tells you my steam explosion fear is stupid, even though it's based on real physics.  There are some real questions asked regarding the collider, but they've been investigated and answered.  The people you see on here that are vehemently opposed just won't accept the answers.  If you go see people learn to rappel, sometimes, before using a slip rope they'll be tied in and eased down a cliff so they can get used to the vertical descent without having to worry about working the rope.  It makes for one less distraction when they need to concentrate on the rope.  Before going over the edge some people freak out.  Even though their instructor has done this with thousands of people without ever deciding to drop someone because it was time for lunch, some people are controlled by fear and won't accept "I've got you."  In this case some people are controlled by fear and won't accept sound answers.  In this blog sometimes people can't accept what they can't understand.
Everything happened instantly during the collusion where the whole mass of matter within and out of the circumference will burst into combustion and turning into dust as though being suckout into the atmosphere through a gigantic tube miles above the earth surface. The whole of Northern Europe be blacken into darkness with ashes, something like the Mount Krakatau of Indonesia where the whole island sink into the sea. But in this case a very gigantic and deep crater will be form as though it being bombard by an asteroid or meteoroid with earthslides around the circumference.

This is my perception vision and imagination. Who knows that, nothing serious will happen and things turn out to be in perfect control, and out of it mankind discovered the usefulness of it. A new source of cheap and abundant energy can be produced and harness in replace of fossil fuel and crude oil, and the world will be a better place to live.
The scientists never thought they would live to see a Resonance Cascade, Let alone create one! (Half-life reference)

Anyway, I don't feel safe about this, I mean you could be walking along at the time they turn on the LHC and *whoosh* black hole just ate you.
cant beleive they are actualy doing this . opening a can of worms hear you just cant stop this or turn it off . messing with mother nature is a big no... surely they know this can inter fear with the earths gravatational pull .not even mentioning the earths core... who am i to say i just live hear . how about spending money on space travel got a feeling we need to get of rock and find a new home .....
At some unknown date in pre-history, a caveperson called Grog put their entire known world at risk by loosing the power of fire upon everyone using friction sticks.  Since then, cooking alone has saved uncountable lives.  

A hundred years ago, Tesla may or may not have "skipped" an energy beam into the Tenguska forest while refining the rudiments of radio.  Now every ambulance, every hospital, every household uses his technology in the name of life.  

Sixty-three years ago, the team at Trinity risked setting the very air on fire, an act that many believe ended World War Two with fewer deaths than the planned invasion would have caused.

This is what it means to be human.  The LHC is simply continuing the tradition.

Would any of us really have it otherwise?
You talk about surviving the death of the sun 5 billion years hence. That's a joke. That would be like a prisoner on Death Row scheduled for execution tonight taking SaME because he hears it slows down the aging process by 5%. And say he gets out of his date with destiny tonight. Say the prison is hit by a derailed train and he escapes into the night. Who cares if he prolongs his life by 5%. It's over after the extra 5% just the same. Supposing man beats the ecological catastrophe he's set upon himself or a more sudden and more deliberate destruction by nuclear war, or natural phenomena in the meantime like megavolcanoes and asteroid impacts and the possibility of a massive object entering the solar system and either killing us all either with fire or with ice, and has only the long-term problems to worry about then. The earth will be uninhabitable in a mere 500 million years, not 5 billion, the Andromeda galaxy is going to  collide with ours, but if we survive all that, it won't even matter, because there are two things we won't survive no matter what obstacles we defeat on the way: the first two laws of thermodynamics!
Two objects cannot occupy the same space ,if you make a blackhole wouldnt that cause an explosion?Or maybe you should consider that the Universe is natural and balanced and this is intetional and gos against the ballance of things.What if one of these dimensiions is the one that God lives in wouldnt we be in trouble for opening that door,who knows whats behind it. I hope you guys have a great shutdown plan that contains a big red button because you guys would be the first to go .Id be looking out for light bending and maybe some king of radiation.Goodluck and I wish the best for you and for us to.  
Here's a section from a paper by astrophysicist Rainer Plaga
"A catastrophe at CERN?
The luminosity of a mBH accreting at the Eddington limit with the parameters
assumed above corresponds to 12 Mt TNT equivalent/sec[11], or the energy
released in a major thermonuclear explosion per second. If such a mBH would
accrete near the surface of Earth the damage they create would be much larger than deep in its interior. With the very small accretion
timescale (≪ 1 second) that was found with the parameters in section 3, a mBH created with
very small (thermal or subthermal) velocities in a collider would appear like a major nuclear explosion in the immediate vicinity of the collider."

To think that an astrophysicist could say this and there to be no tendency for reconsideration by CERN when the main counter arguments made against Plaga by Mangano and Giddings were considered, in Plaga's Sept '08 addendum to his paper, to be based on MISUNDERSTANDINGS of Plaga's own paper,
I find, well,  horrifying.

nb check google scholar if you wish for the credibility of Plaga as astrophysicist.
I have read the articals and  M.Lason goes close Manganos LCH quest of unlocking matter seems near. I have waited with interest the 'Cernatron'and results which at present are on hold they have discovered design changes are necessary. The expanding universe is held together by string energy particals they are the product of matter converted back to energy from blackholes.Matter is the product of energy condensed by gravitational attraction where after which fusion forms stars and antimatter is the blackhole generator of matter to string energy particals. The universe is unforgiving with collapse and a new beginning.    
The LHC has been stopped, at least for the moment.

What intrigues me now while reviewing these posts is
the "naivette" of many otherwise intelligent people.

As I stated in my previous posting: Einstein may very
well have been able to solve the "Unified Field" equation, but he knew better than to release that knowledge to this world.

It is History, and not any theory of mine that any advanced knowledge of energy sources Will be used for military purposes to create ever more powerful Weapons of Universal Destruction.

Anyone who at this point in time speaks about "Life"
in Decades or Centuries to come is out of touch with what's actually happening in todays world.

Our planet "The World" may very well exist in centuries to come, what is very much in doubt is the
continued existence of genus Homo Sapiens here.

for anyone who is still waiting for the headline on the "New York Times" to acknowledge that we are already involved in "WWIII" it officially started when a major american city was attacked on a day which will live in Infamy, no, not December 7, 1941 (that was WWII) I'm talking about September 11, 2001.

This is a New and Unprecedented Time, and we need to deal with todays realities if we are to survive.

The answer is not to move to other planets, that's the object of "Research Grants" for misguided PHD's
and pipe dreams of the gullible.

We need to deal with the realities of the here and now, while there is still Time, there is still Hope.

If we dont deal with the otherwise mundane realities of overpopulation, hunger, homelessness and lately
the global "Money" crisis, We Will Self Destruct.
and all these super duper theoretical projects wont amount to "A hill of beans" to quote from a classic
movie from the last war.

Again, my call goes out to all our Brilliant Minds;
Solve the "Real Problems" of today's world,
If not for my Children, do it for Yours.

Rosendo Marcano, New York


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