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Quantum fluctuations in space, science, exploration and other cosmic fields... served up regularly by MSNBC.com science editor Alan Boyle since 2002.

Alan Boyle covers the physical sciences, anthropology, technological innovation and space science and exploration for MSNBC.com. He is a winner of the AAAS Science Journalism Award, the NASW Science-in-Society Award and other honors; a contributor to "A Field Guide for Science Writers"; and a member of the board of the Council for the Advancement of Science Writing.

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The benefits of black holes

Posted: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 3:48 PM by Alan Boyle


CERN
A simulation shows the pattern of
particles that scientists think could
be produced by a micro black hole.

What good is a microscopic black hole, and why would you make one on Earth? Can a black hole ever really be safe, even if it's the size of a quark?

Michelangelo Mangano is a theoretical physicist at Europe's CERN particle-physics center, where black holes could conceivably be created as early as next year, and such questions have taken up his time for many months.

In an exclusive Q&A, he provides answers on a cosmic scale.

Mangano is one of the authors of CERN's latest safety report for the Large Hadron Collider, which is destined to become the world's most powerful atom-smasher. The 17-mile-round underground ring on the French-Swiss border is being readied for its official startup next month or so, but the proton-on-proton action isn't likely to reach its peak energy of 14 trillion electron volts, or 14 TeV, until next year.

At that level, there's a chance that the LHC might create microscopic black holes - as well as supersymmetric dark-matter particles, quark-gluon plasma, the elusive Higgs boson (a.k.a. the "God Particle") and other exotic stuff. It was Mangano's job to update past safety reports that concluded particle colliders like the LHC posed no risk of sparking a cosmic catastrophe (for example, creating the planet-gobbling variety of big black holes).

Those previous studies took the view that micro black holes would almost instantly wink out of existence, based on the claim that black holes lost energy through a phenomenon called Hawking radiation. But critics complained that the evidence for Hawking radiation was less than rock-solid - and for that reason, a couple of those critics filed a federal lawsuit seeking the suspension of work on the LHC.


Courtesy of M. Mangano
Michelangelo Mangano
is a physicist at CERN.

Answering that criticism, Mangano and a colleague of his from the University of California at Santa Barbara, Steve Giddings, wrote a heavy-duty research paper asserting that the LHC posed no catastrophic risk, even if you assumed that micro black holes remained stable and didn't emit Hawking radiation. The Giddings-Mangano study, or "GM paper," drew high praise from a panel of experts who endorsed CERN's safety report.

The most dedicated critics may not be satisfied, but Mangano hopes that the latest findings should reassure reasonable observers that particle colliders pose no threat. The Italian-born 46-year-old also hopes that he can now get back to some semblance of a normal life, although I have a feeling he's going to be kept busy at least until the LHC reaches its top energy of 14 TeV.

This week, Mangano discussed in detail what led him to conclude that Earth was safe - and explained how microscopic black holes could spark a scientific revolution. Here is an edited transcript:

Q: What new research did you conduct on this question about what the Large Hadron Collider will do, and how does it apply to this controversy over black holes?

A: We took on the suggestion that black holes could be stable, even though the overwhelming majority of experts don’t take this as a serious possibility. It’s quite clear, if you just do some simple estimates, that even in the scenario in which black holes are stable, you should be able to rule out any possible problem. Anything that could destroy the earth cannot just happen on earth, it would have to be able to happen somewhere else. So we just went around and identified what seemed to be the most promising systems we could look at, to establish this connection. In fact, many scenarios can be ruled out directly by the fact that they would have already destroyed the earth or the sun.  But for certain scenarios you need to consider other objects.

Dense objects like white dwarfs and neutron stars seemed to be the best possible candidates, because they’re very dense, and therefore if you produce black holes from cosmic rays, they would be stopped by those objects. Since they are dense, the black hole would eat matter at the highest rate. It would tend to consume such objects much faster than it would consume the earth. So we studied how stable black holes would change lifetimes of these objects.

The crucial point is this: The black holes that could be produced by the LHC would be very, very small objects. Now, the black hole absorbs matter that gets in its way, right? If you assume that the black hole only eats whatever falls into its trajectory, you find out that it would take a nearly infinite amount of time before it could do any damage to earth. It just cannot grow fast enough, because it’s too small.

The only way that you could actually do something macroscopic is by drawing in matter from a much, much larger distance. Since this is the condition under which a black hole can become dangerous, and since it requires the distance at which it affects the matter surrounding it to be large, you only need to understand very basic features of how a black hole works. The starting point for this research is to assume our ignorance about the quantum state of a black hole – whether it’s stable, whether it decays, whether there is Hawking radiation.

We know that in order for the black hole to do anything macroscopic, it has to behave as a big object. It has to have an effect at a large distance. But at a large distance, we don’t worry about the microscopic state of a black hole. It’s all electromagnetism, it’s fluid dynamics, it’s the standard physics that we know very well.

We can arrive at very solid conclusions that do not presume knowledge of physics beyond the Standard Model on a microscopic scale. This is the main contribution, if you wish, of our work – aside from working out the implications of these observations in detail.

Q: But how did you match up your conclusions about the macroscopic effects of a black hole with observations of the universe itself? Did you do a survey of neutron stars?

A: We know what the rate of cosmic rays is, how they permeate the galaxy. Then we look at very specific neutron stars or, better yet, white dwarfs. We’re not doing a statistical analysis. We’re merely looking at a specific object. And we ask ourselves, “How long has that object been there?” For example, we have a very reliable estimate of the age of a white dwarf, based on its temperature and mass – macroscopic parameters that are well-measured and well-understood by astronomers.

And then we ask, “How many cosmic rays with energy beyond the energy of the LHC have hit that star, and how many black holes would have been produced inside that object, if black holes can be produced at the LHC?” We find numbers that are very large – numbers that are in the hundreds, in the thousands.

In parallel, we calculate how long one of these black holes would take to destroy that object. And we find numbers that are on the order of anything between a few years and perhaps a hundred thousand years or 1 million years. It’s basically impossible that this star had not been hit by a cosmic ray that would have produced a black hole. And if it produced a black hole that was capable of consuming the star, the star would be gone. It would not be there.

Q: Maybe we can back up a bit and ask how a microscopic black hole is created in a particle accelerator. Does the impact of the protons lead to the gravitation collapse of a particle to such a degree that it creates a black hole, like a star collapsing? Or is it a different mechanism?

A: It’s slightly different. Two quarks – one quark from one proton, the other from the other proton – come together with the very high energy that they inherit from the protons that contain them. They come very, very close to each other. From Einstein’s theory of general relativity, we know that it’s the energy density that curves spacetime. It’s the mass in E=mc2. If you have mass, or you have energy, it’s the same. So if you manage to concentrate enough energy in a very small amount of space, then you curve spacetime, and beyond a given curvature you create a small spatial region that we call a black hole.

This isn’t like the collapse of a star, where you have no radiative pressure after running out of fuel and it falls onto itself under its own gravitational field. Here, it’s shooting two particles very close to each other at very high energy to create this huge energy density.

Now, if we just have the universe as we currently know it, in order to create such a spacetime region, it would require an amount of energy that is 1 million billion times bigger than the LHC. That’s energy on the order of 1019 GeV [giga electron volts] – much higher than anything that is achievable today.

On the other hand, some speculative theories say that there are more dimensions in addition to the four dimensions of the regular universe we know. If those theories are true, then the force of gravity could become much stronger at very short distances. The gravitational force between these two particles would become much bigger. Therefore, there would be a much higher potential for curving spacetime and producing this black hole even with energies as low as those accessible at the LHC.

So in order for the LHC to produce some of these black holes, we really have to go beyond the normal theory of gravity. We have to assume that there are extra dimensions. By the way, there are many theories that have extra dimensions. Not all of them would give rise to black holes at the LHC. It’s only highly fine-tuned ones that make this possible.

Q: How would these black holes be detected? I assume that you wouldn’t detect them directly, but you’d detect them through their decay products.

A: This is true of pretty much every particle that we produce at this accelerator. Even the top quark is not detected directly, because it decays within 10-24 seconds. What we see are the decay products. It’d be the same for a black hole. It would decay on a time scale that is about a factor of thousands smaller than that of the top quark. The main feature of a black hole decay is that there would be no bias in the particles coming out of the decay.

The final state would be relatively spherical, with no specific direction. There’d be a uniform distribution, with many highly energetic particles of all different kinds: electrons, muons, quarks, photons. This is something that the typical proton-proton collision would not give rise to. It would be a very distinctive signature.

Q: Is there any expectation of how long it might take to have a confirmed detection of black holes? Does it usually take a couple of years?

A: This would be a very spectacular signature. The number of events would be quite large. So it’s not unreasonable that two or three years could be enough to draw this conclusion. It all depends on the mass, because if the black holes exist, they cannot be arbitrarily light. Otherwise we would have seen them already at the Tevatron.

We haven’t seen them at the Tevatron, so they have to be at least a few TeV. In fact, from other collider limits on extradimensional gravity, we know they must have mass higher than about 5 TeV. If they are close to this, their production rate would be large, and they would be produced abundantly early on. Given the spectacular nature of the final state, I believe there could be a conclusion within a couple of years.

In fact, it could be easier than detecting the Higgs boson. We talk a lot about the Higgs, but the Higgs is not the simplest thing to observe. Supersymmetry could be discovered before the Higgs. Extra dimensions and black holes could be discovered before the Higgs.

Q: And because black holes would imply that extra dimensions exist, that would be a signal achievement for physics. Would that provide the first evidence that all this crazy talk about extra dimensions is true?

A: That would certainly be the most compelling indication that indeed we live in more than four dimensions. Philosophically, that would be at the same level as special relativity or quantum mechanics. That would be a major revolution in our view of the universe – well beyond the Higgs, well beyond supersymmetry and anything else that we have thought of.

Q: I know this is the question that physicists hate, but would there be any implications for daily life? Could extra dimensions lead to new energy sources, for example?

A: I really have no idea what we could get out of extra dimensions. But there is one element of our universe that we don’t understand very well, and that is gravity. Being able to do experiments exposing extra dimensions would for the first time provide us with a new observatory for gravity.

So far, the only place where we can measure gravity is in the macroscopic universe, where we measure the motion of planets and other large objects, or the expansion of the universe itself. But it all follows from the same law of gravity: Newton’s law or, if you wish, Einstein’s theory of general relativity. By looking at how spacetime works at very short distances, we get an entirely different picture. God knows what we will uncover.

All of these discussions about traveling forward and backward in time, or wormholes, you name it – all of these ideas, however bizarre, if they work at all, could be exposed by phenomena in the framework of extra dimensions.

When we’re talking about the proton-proton collisions at the LHC, one manifestation of extra dimensions would be the production of black holes. Maybe there are other manifestations. Maybe you could alter the fabric of spacetime, for example. But again, the risk is something we can rule out, because destroying the fabric of spacetime is not something that would happen only at the LHC. If you look at the much more energetic cosmic-ray collisions taking place out there in the universe, if any of those had created a problem with spacetime, we would know it by now.

So when I say “we don’t know what will happen,” it doesn’t mean we have a new source of uncontrollable risk. I’m simply saying that the picture of the universe that we will see could be very interesting.

You know, 5 billion years from now, the sun is going to blow up. There is nothing we can do about that. This will be worse than global warming. It will be worse than a meteorite hitting Earth. If we want to survive for more than 5 billion years, we have to find a way out of this place – and the way to get out of this place is not just by building more powerful rockets. We have to understand more about spacetime and how to travel in a much more efficient way.

I’m not saying this will come out of the LHC. But it’s quite clear that, if it finds black holes, the LHC will be one of the steps in this direction.

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Comments

Wow - brilliant Q&A!

Really love Mangano's closing...

Thanks a ton Alan!
put it in warp drive captain
Wait for the movie that's coming out and then the failure management team can just check the ending!
Great Q&A.  Look forward to seeing (or not) what comes out.
I wish I was younger,I'm going miss whats going to happen in the next 35 to 40 years. This was very intresting reading . Look foward to more of the same.
Outstanding! As an engineer I believe God exists at the edge of all we don't know. Hopefully, LHC brings us closer...
I believe that Michelangelo Mangano did a very credible job leading the LHC Safety Assessment group.  I thank him for his outstanding contribution.

However, I also strongly support those who require that the <a href="http://www.lhcdefense.com">safety findings be confirmed</a> empirically (proven by observation) before micro black holes might be created on Earth with velocities to slow to escape Earth.

The GLAST space telescope was launched last month.  The Large Hadron Collider should not risk creating micro black holes at least until Hawking Radiation can be verified by GLAST (prove that micro black holes evaporate).  Otherwise we will not have learned a lessen from the space shuttle Challenger.

We know that Hawking Radiation is disputed and that charged micro black holes <a href="http://www.lhcfacts.org">might grow very quickly</a> on Earth.

Empirical evidence from dense objects in space is not confirmed.  For one, we do not know with any certainty if micro black holes are powerful enough to "eat" super dense Neutron star "food".  

Let us not ignore what CERN's SPC Committee <a href="http://indico.cern.ch/getFile.py/access?contribId=20&resId=0&materialId=0&confId=35065">wrote in their validation</a> of the 2008 LSAG Safety Report:

"<i>A powerful argument applicable also to higher energies is formulated making reference to observed neutron stars, but this argument relies on properties of cosmic rays and neutrinos that, while highly plausible, do require confirmation, as can be expected in the coming years.</i>" - SPC Committee

We all understand that waiting possibly years for safety confirmation is extremely inconvenient, but also absolutely reasonable, prudent and <b>required</b> in my opinion.
It is an exciting time, even for us "educated lay persons"!  Indeed, for those who allow their minds to wander in such circles, the demonstration of extra spacial dimencsions will take many things out of science fiction, and place them into our reality. I do not expect the infamous "anti-gravity" propulsion system next year, but to ever get there, we go here first.  I am elated by the events about to take place. The leading edge of science always overlaps with philosphy, and I am intrigued by both .... and look forward to the events about to take place at CERN!

Stephen
This was illuminating. Brilliant article.
This is the first time in my life have feelings the experiment will change To a new form of how we had perceive the world around us!
You’re a brilliant Mr. Mangano!
Great interview.  How about more?  Topic suggestions:
Supersymmetric dark-matter particles, quark-gluon plasma, the elusive Higgs boson (a.k.a. the "God Particle" as mentioned in this article.
Thanks
There was at one time a great deal of concern that a train traveling at more than ten miles per hour would suck the breath out of any person or animal in the vicinity. I guess no one considered the velocity of weather generated wind.  Will we look back on this and laugh also?
 With half of the 'Standard Model' missing, shrouded within a mathematical haze of pure speculation, and the LHC being built upon these antiquated precepts, there is absolutely no way of telling what awaits CERN! It will take these experiments to extricate the physics community, from their stagnated, depressing, and quagmired current positions! At least one sector of the 'Standard Model' shall receive a tsunami of change, that will send the mathematicians and physicists scrambling wildly to install these new, much needed corrections! There is no doubt, that the future world desperate energy needs lie in LHC technologies; however, the production course should be traveled with extreme caution!  The LSAG 'safety report' covers only lower energy 2008 'start-up' operation projections, and speaks nothing of the pre-planned decade of precision energy upgrades to come, set to begin in 2009! This report covers only previous public dockets of concern, and nothing toward the 'new' emerging risk assessment meetings, that are going on - 'Behind Closed Doors'! CERN is grappling with multiple variance-calculation paradoxes, and even as Michelangelo Mangano (and others) penned the now famous 'quiet the public' 'Safe Status' safety report! Two such situations are known: #1). CERN uncertainty RE: Quantum Time-Dilation Contraction-Calibration Equations, used for particle beam timing/focus, that optimize the beams 'impact moment' for collisions per second, which then are detector analyzed. This line of equations must be precise, or facility damage may occur!  #2). RE: ALICE heavy (Pb) ion collisions, scheduled to begin (once financed) in 2009. This project generates hyper-density plasmatic fields, that could affect a gravitational curvature, thus possibly producing a compression singularity vortex, and then an event-horizon expansion. This is known as the: Einstein-Rosen Bridge wormhole: QUANTUM WORMHOLE!
>>You know, 5 billion years from now, the sun is going to blow up. There is nothing we can do about that.<<

Whew! For a moment there, I thought you said five MILLION years!
That was quite a fantastic Q&A as Matt put it. With any luck the scientific field will discover some of the things that he has mentioned above and change our perspective on the universe. It would be easier, maybe, to find the Unified Field Theory, (the Theory of Everything); the theory that Einstein spent so much devoted time searching for.
LOL

Humans, even in early ape form, have only been on the Earth for about 1 million years, and we're talking about doing something to last longer than 5 BILLION years.

Was the last paragraph a little wink wink comedy?

I'd expect that over the course of a billion years, not 5 billion, we'd evolve (if we live past the current global warming crisis) to some ethereal pure energy form theorized by many people.

Boy, it's sure nice when we get to hear one of 999 out of 1000 scientists who aren't subscribing to a doomsday scenario.

It seems like the 1 scientist who screams "doomsday!" the loudest gets the most media attention.  The general public needs to hear these people speak more about their work!

Great read!
Yes, with luck in five billion years Einstein, Hawking and Witten will be perceived as, well, quaint, much as we now look at Pythagoras and Aristotle and Euclid.

Hopefully in five billion years, the breakfast conversation (assuming we still sleep) among the beings we have evolved into will be something like this:

"Sol went nova yesterday."

"Oh, so the calculations were accurate.  Earth is no more."

"Yes, could you pass the newcoffee please."
We cant figure out for sure what happend 5 billion years ago let alone what MIGHT happen 5 billion from now!
If they keep playing with more and more powerful devices, more and more powerful accidents will happen. Or more powerful weapons... And that being said, Id say theres a better chance of us destroying ourselves than there is the sun blowing up and killing us all.
Please refer to space travel in the hindu culture. Vedas (hindu scriptures) already describe the extra dimensions and theory of space travel.
It is very difficult to understand but it assumes this is only possible through a unique kind of meditation which allows the soul to enter another dimension and travel in space. the texts also describe some experiences people had when they tried this. It would be interesting if the above research can be combined with these old texts
while I doubt they will be shattering any planets, What does his assurances matter? If they rip the earth apart, it isn't like we're going to hold a trial. What is he going to say? "my bad"
Alan:

Thanks for presenting the interview.  Mangano is correct, if microblackholes [MBHs] decay, they will have a very distinctive signature.

However, his LSAG Report has been preliminarily reviewed and found invalid in a number of key respects.

He claims that cosmic rays would strike neutron stars [NS] with energies comparable to LHC energies.  That is questionable.  The high magnetic fields would likely cause them to lose tremendous amounts of energy before impact.  Indeed, the report seems to acknowledge this fault, but then sidesteps it.  The same would be true for White Dwarves [WD].

Further, there is no proof that they would stop in a WD, which is no where near as dense as a NS.  WDs are relatively transparent to relativistic neutrinos [by which emissions they cool in their early history], and likely would be even more so to relativistic microblackholes [MBHs], which interact with only the much much weaker gravitational force, rather than the 'weak' force of the relativistic neutrino.

If relativistic MBHs can't be trapped, then the argument also completely fails.

Moreover, the LHC might also be producing deconfined quarks.  It is, after all, primarily designed to deconfine quarks by collisions of Lead nuclei.  This might be the greater risk for strangelet production, though since Managano only spoke of MBHs in this article, I won't go into those arguments here.

Suffice it to say I agree that the LHC might produce MBHs, and that if they decay, they would have a distinctive signature.  However, they might alternatively not decay, or even worse, spontaneously grow larger by a process known as "reverse Hawking radiation" in which nearby matter could conceivably quantum tunnel into the MBH.  This was not discussed at all in the LSAG Report.

Best regards,

Walter L. Wagner
dark matter,dark energy,wormholes,extra dimensions;so much we still have to learn, IF we don't destroy this planet 1st!
I thought people reading this article and the comments on it might be interested in a summary analysis I made of the comments to a somewhat earlier article in cosmiclog, which dealt with the CERN safety report mentioned in the curent article. The analysis can be found in my blog at <http://onscreen-scientist.com/?p=26>. My weariness from the task itself may have colored my view of the comments.
Feynman talked about the "rules" of quantum mechanics being similar to chess: The pieces are "particles" and each piece has a certain rule set for movement on the chess board plane...

I am speculating that what all these quantum physicists are looking for are the Knights of Quantum Mechanics: or, more plainly stated, the particle that can "move" interdimensionally over other pieces.(or metadimensionally? Creates a dimension (how, I don't know - a very small localized gravitational field right in xyz plane? Ions do move through channels in neurons. Potassium Ions can't go through Sodium Channels) on the fly, moves through it and lands somewhere in xyz space? There is talk of mini black holes. Maybe that's the transport mechanism these Knights use to change the state of matter/energy)

So, yeah the rule of a Knight, right? (Poetry in motion...)
Up OR Down 2,  Left or Right 1 Square
OR
Left Or Right 1 Square, Up or Down 2 squares.

Using a "lattice" description, how many possible paths does a knight have available on any spot over the chessboard?

Answer: 8 [4 from moving up or down first, 4 from moving left or right first] (notice it's similar in shape to a circle, if you were to draw a curved line through all the points..)

With chess, there is some sort of anticipatory element that MAY or may not exist in nature. With chess, the idea is that Knights are very powerful pieces that can "fork" other more "powerful" pieces (Refer to the rating system: Knights: 3, Rooks: 5, Queens: 8. [Interesting numbers pop up from the fibonacci sequence in the rating system]) But in order to generate the condition of the fork, one must think forward, therefore, have a perception of sequencing events to unfold over a period of time. Also, there are the permutations of possiblity involved. Lots of IF THEN possibility/probability structures.

Now - with regards to the mystery of quantum physics, the question is:
1. How many "knights" are there that can operate inter and/or metadimensionally? (If an additional "dimension" is even used - maybe it's similar to the stuff to the flattening of dimensions, moving in that dimension, then reappearing in another dimension to change position altogether.)

2. What are the core rules for these knights? How do they communicate/interact with other particles to generate/transform matter and energy, hmmmm?

The idea being Knights can "jump" over a wall of pawns or any pattern/configuration of pieces and "take over" any square by vanquishing who ever is in that square. BUT it cannot move to a square where an "ally" is located. It can move next to one, in front of one, but no two pieces can occupy the same square.

My guess, again, is that these guys are thinking "Dark Matter" Or Bosons or whatever mysterious particle they think they are looking for are the "Knights of Quantum Physics" that operate and bind particles together to generate the various forms of matter and energy?

So maybe: Pawns, Rooks, Bishops, Queens and Kings are the "visible" pieces of Quantum Mechanics and Knights are the Particles that can jump metadimensionally (go x, then z, then w, land in y, go y then x land in z) and land where ever, creating different configurations of matter/energy to occur.

Of course, that's assuming there isn't something ELSE going on we haven't detected yet. Ha!
I built one of these LHC`s in my basement back in 1959 using some old telephone wires and ball bearings out of my boys roller skates. When I fired it up I was jettisoned forwards in time to 2008. I`d just about given up on any chance of you Mangano boys showing up. Now come on, get it fired up and get me the heck outta here!
B. Athan
Somewhere, Universe
It is good to have a "fire" extinguisher around when doing "experiments"....I wonder what that is in this case.  I am glad the LHC will take us to the next level of particle physics, I am watching closely for any sign what-so-ever of the Higgs particle but I do not expect them to find any thing but a hint of the proposed black-holes that have made the media frenzy headlines of late.  Now the clincher, I think the equivalent of the LHC is already in operation, albiet natures version, Saturn, for example may be haphazardly tossing higgs bosons about with not a care in the world as to who or what measures them, and jupiter would be an even better candidate, let alone the numerous black holes.  Some of Nasa's directions should also be to look for opertune natural particle accelerators.  In fact we should begin planning to put the LHC succesor off terra firma.  The moon might be a good starting point.  Thanks for a very good article....And the comments are terrific too!!! If more people could find an interest in science some of our more pressing problems in society could be seriously reduced....good or bad, please tell anyone that will listen what you read today.  Really, for the sake of humanity.

ray smith
Personally, I would rather belong to a species that destroyed itself in the quest for understanding than a species that climbed to the utmost edge of the void where it could gain ultimate cosmic knowledge, but then said, "Nah, too scary" and backed away.
So many chicken littles.  It's interesting how we will cherry pick at the science to make the worst possible scenario.  Army Wife Syndrome we could call it, AWS.  He'll get shot, he'll get blown up, he'll catch tsitsi or a rabid fish will attack in the desert.  Show me empirical evidence that a MBH can even exist, then tell me why I should be worried about it.  Until then, if you don't trust the science that shows it to be safe, why do you trust the science that shows it can exist?  If all you have is a bunch of what ifs add these:  What if we all burst into spontaneous human combustion?  What if aliens are among us and mean us harm?  What if the sun gets jiggy 5 billion years early?  What if two super novae go off such that we're caught in a node that pushes us out of orbit?

For the chicken littles on here, you are hypocrites anyway.  If you were truly concerned about preventing man made catastrophe you wouldn't be offended by that statement because you wouldn't see it.  Your computer would be off.  It's a totally unnecessary contribution to green house gasses.

That being said, I appreciate a good chicken little hypocrite from time to time.  I'm probably only alive to be annoyed by them because of them.

As for the concern that future experiments haven't been so openly discussed:  Data from early experiments will most likely profoundly impact the understanding of the science involved.  Speculating about it now is akin to the rant of an eight year old throwing a tantrum because daddy wouldn't buy him the precious thing he won't be able to live without.  "If I made as much money as he makes ..."  That's easy for the eight year old to say.  He doesn't have the understanding adults have.  There's the house payment, car payment(s), insurance, food, nestegg (Americans can ignore that one, I know it makes no sense.)  $1,000 becomes $50 faster than an eight year old would believe.  I expect that when the knowledge comes to take mankind out of that eight year old state those of us contributing here won't understand it.  If not for lack of brains then for lack of time.  We have to work to pay all those bills.  Decissions on how to proceed will be made by those immersed in that information as their job.  And they have a vested interest in not destroying the planet in the near future.
This is space alien technology at its best but said in a human language. wake up. it s either a quantaum leap or space travel..beam me up scotty..give a year or two after it works and there will pocket size travel deals
I am not a scientist and have no background knowledge of how any of this works. Speaking as a regular person with regular needs I have to ask,what are the benefits of this experiment and if a "mistake" could result in a worst case scenario situation is it worth the risk? Had the scientist on the Manhattan project known would they have gone ahead an built the atom bomb? Many said  no. Do common folk get a vote before the smart guys play with black holes. Maybe this isn't such a good idea and the sad part is this is one time we don't get a vote.
This is incredibly, incredibly exciting.
As a high-schooler, I'm put out that I'm too young to see this happen. Hopefully I'll help work on it.
Wait for me, Science!

P.S. Brilliant article.
There will be a rumble right before the light changes frequency and bends, distorting everyones feild of view as our reality, time and space, everything , disappears in a final rush of heavy blackness ...
At that moment, mankind finally finds the solution to his existence ...
Bob Estes,
Fantastic job.  Fairly done, insightful, no cheap shots.  Not quite up to publication in a psych journal but you obviously put in way too much work on it as is.  I can only imagine how grueling it must have been taking a serious, contemplative look at a lot of those comments which I happily ignore.  Hopefully the moderators took the time to read it and let it influence them as to which comments make it through.  It is unfortunate that the posters who need the guidance it provides are the least likely to be effected by it.
what? 5 billions years iam sorry i cant wait that long i want u to blow us up now!!
The black hole will be like pacman and will gobble up the entire planet before the scientists can even say whoops. Or not.
Terrific read ! I am so looking forward to the results of these experiments. I cannot imagine why so few people are unaware of what is going on at CERN. Most people have no idea what the LHC is. The average person is not aware that scientist, to this day, have not been able to find a "Theory of Everything", a theory that would unify or explain through a single model the theories of all fundamental interactions of nature. The main candidate at the moment is Superstring Theory, which requires 10 or 11 dimensions. Hopefully these experiments will unearth these extra dimensions. I for one am very curious about our Universe and our very existence.
For decades, theorists have tried various strategies to roll up the gravitational field and the quantum field into one set of equations. This has been the "Holy Grail" of Physics. Now we have a chance to venture into new territory.. to go where no man has gone before.
I am excited. I am not a Physicist. I am simply a person who reads as much as I can about new discoveries, new possibilies. I look around me and shake my head in disbelief when I see the rubbish that interests most of the population. For those against the start-up of the LHC, I strongly suggest that "Reality" shows have done more damage to humankind than the LHC could ever come close to doing. What has happened to us ? Where has our spirit of adventure gone ? If we never take chances, as we have done in the past, we will never discover anything new. I believe that the people who are objecting to the operation of the LHC need to take a good look at themselves and ask themselves some serious questions. I am 53 years of age and it is so great to be alive during this amazing age of technology. Let's grasp this opportunity with both hands and get this show on the road ! This is the most exciting thing since the moon landing... only 90 percent of the population of the world don't know it yet !!
Great read, lots of food for thought for the scientifically curious lay-man like myself. Lets support this man's work and others like him, stop practicing witchcraft and superstition, bridge the gap between philosophy and science, get these anti-matter warp engines fired up and make it so!!
A masterpiece article. This highlight the worst and best possible outcomes of LHC. Feels like talking to a director of a sci-fi movie. I will now have to read more about LHC.
Awesome, awesome article. If for some reason anything at all does get swallowed up, I can only hope that it includes the physicist that created, and say, anyone else in the room. ;) - Great science on how we (almost certainly) will not be swallowed up by a microscopic black hole - any more (or any faster) than a dust mite can eat your entire bed - even with enough time. Cheers!
What's the point of making a microscopic black hole? Just to know more about them? Seems pretty pointless except for wasting a lot of energy.
OK, doesn't anyone else see the complete logical fault(s) in Mangano's description of the non-effects of black holes on neutron stars and/or white dwarfs?  Firstly, as has already been pointed out above, the de-energizing effects of the gravitational field around the wd or ns would slow particles before they hit those objects, so there is no real way to make the analogy to the highest energy collisions that the LHC will eventually generate.  

But far more importantly - he says that "if it produced a black hole that was capable of consuming the star, the star would be gone.  It would not be there."  Well "DUH", if the ns or wd is not there, then what would he have to observe?  How can he base his argument on stars that are still there and observable, when any that HAD been consumed by a black hole WOULD NOT BE THERE?

There are just too many unknowable factors, too many contradictory theories, to believe that he knows what he is talking about - especially considering his vested interest in the LHC.  Any mistake here costs us or existence - so how does someone like Mangano have the audacity to say he has the answer - and that we are safe?
what's a black hole?
I agree, this will be very interesting.  We need something new to respark the light of science in the world.
It appears that Mangano has thought of everything. I don't want to ever hear him say...Darn it all..I wish I had thought of that.
I can assure you that black holes present an imminent threat to life on earth and are already in our midst.

For years, my tax dollars have been getting sucked into one located somewhere in Washington, D.C.
In this article, I noticed an assumption of what are the odds of the creation of a single black hole in a dense structure and that black hole growing large enough to consume the structure.

What about the creation of a cloud of microscopic black holes in a non-dense structure? There is an assumption that a small black hole would not have the gravitational field to swallow a particle in proximity to the black hole before the black hole evaporates. What I did not hear was what happens when a cluster of black holes are created and pushed together via the LHC containment field. A near instant merging of say 100 microscopic black holes is a completely different story than the existence of a single black hole in a dense structure. You could have a much larger, stronger and older black hole to deal with.

If we are assume that a microscopic black hole can be produced by the LHC and we are wrong in our theories, would it be possible a rip could occur causing say a wormhole and instantanously transporting the LHC into another dimension without anyone knowing what happened? "What can go wrong, will go Wrong!"

Also, does anyone know of person that can answer a question regarding what is beyond the universe. If in fact the universe is expanding and will fall back upon itself. What is the area (space) that it is expanding into or leaving behind?

Is there more than one universe? If so, what happens when one expands into another?

[ALAN ADDS: The first part of your question is what Mangano addressed in the latter part of the Q&A. The LHC is the most powerful collider constructed to date, but it's way less powerful than what's going on out in the universe. The collision strength of particles hitting astronomical bodies is orders of magnitude higher, and over the course of billions of years, some of those collisions would have (or might not have) produced exotic phenomena in proximity to astronomical objects. If there were a catastrophic rip-in-spacetime event (this sounds like the vacuum-bubble event mentioned in the CERN safety report), such a phenomenon would already have had an impact.

[As to what the universe is expanding into, there are a couple of levels to that question. For three-dimensional space, here's a quickie answer from physicist Michio Kaku:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3077398/

[If you allow for extradimensional physics, theorists sometimes see the universe as one of many potential universes in a larger extradimensional space known as "the bulk." For more on this concept, check out this story:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13070896/

[Hope this is helpful...]

There is already a proposal for Faster Than Light (FTL) travel,see this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive

Perhaps some deeper knowledge from the LHC about the construction of spacetime will result in FTL travel someday in the future.  This 4-dimensional existence is so boring!
"Anything that could destroy the earth cannot just happen on earth, it would have to be able to happen somewhere else."

Well, I guess if you ignore minor issues like global warming and nuclear war ...


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