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Quantum fluctuations in space, science, exploration and other cosmic fields... served up regularly by MSNBC.com science editor Alan Boyle since 2002.

Alan Boyle covers the physical sciences, anthropology, technological innovation and space science and exploration for MSNBC.com. He is a winner of the AAAS Science Journalism Award, the NASW Science-in-Society Award and other honors; a contributor to "A Field Guide for Science Writers"; and a member of the board of the Council for the Advancement of Science Writing.

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Doomsday lawsuit dissed

Posted: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 8:48 PM by Alan Boyle


Maximilien Brice / CERN
A hardhat worker is dwarfed by the inner workings of the Large Hadron
Collider's ATLAS detector. Click on the image for a larger version.

The federal government today struck back in force against a lawsuit that has raised an alarm over the world's biggest particle collider. In 40 documents comprising hundreds of pages, attorneys and government officials contended that "scientifically, there is no basis for any conceivable threat" from black holes or the other theoretical horrors posed in the suit.

If the government has its way, the lawsuit would be thrown out on procedural grounds even before getting to the scientific arguments.

The civil suit, filed in Hawaii's U.S. District Court in March, contends that Europe's Large Hadron Collider might destroy the earth by creating microscopic black holes or other exotic phenomena. The plaintiffs in the case - Spanish science writer Luis Sancho and Walter Wagner, a retired nuclear physicist who lives in Hawaii - want the court to put a hold on collider operations to leave more time for safety reviews.

Sancho and Wagner's call for a go-slow approach runs counter to the prevailing scientific view that the LHC poses no globe-gobbling risk. Just last Friday, Europe's CERN nuclear research organization issued a safety report reiterating that view - and in today's filings, the U.S. Department of Energy said it accepted the findings of that report, as well as earlier reports that came to similar conclusions.

Critics have tried to poke holes in those safety reports, but one of the documents filed today says the Energy Department "is not aware of a single instance where the conclusions of those reports have been contested or rebutted in any particle physics peer-reviewed or scholarly forum."

Legal matters
As expected, the Justice Department attorneys who are representing the Energy Department as well as the National Science Foundation, laid out several lines of defense in addition to recapping CERN's scientific evidence. The procedural matters are likely to come up first when the motion to squelch the suit is considered at a hearing in September.

The federal government says the lawsuit should be thrown out because:

  • It was filed after the statute of limitations ran out for contesting U.S. involvement in the LHC project. Although federal agencies have been paying out the money for years - and will continue to support experiments at the LHC - the government argues that the key dates for the statute of limitations are 1998 and 1999, when the agencies decided to award funds.

  • All the U.S. funding for LHC construction has been depleted, and CERN is now fully in charge of the collider and its detectors. The government says the federal courts would thus have no jurisdiction over the operations in Europe. One of the documents filed today is a letter from CERN, saying that French and Swiss authorities have found no fault with its radiation safety procedures. Those authorities have concluded that "no safety risk exists," said Maurizio Bona, the head of CERN's safety commission.

  • The plaintiffs have not demonstrated that they have standing. The government says that the claims of potential injury are "overly speculative and not credible," that any potential injury is not fairly traceable to the federal government, and that the plaintiffs have no geographical or other particular connection to the federal government's actions.

  • Even if the court ordered a stop to U.S. involvement in the LHC, it would make no difference - because the experiments at the collider would simply go ahead without federally funded scientists. "There is not any effective relief that the court can order," the government's brief says.

In fact, one Energy Department official was quoted as saying that holding up U.S. involvement in the LHC experiments could do harm.

"There is a very good possibility that important scientific discoveries will be made at the LHC during very early LHC operations," Bruce Strauss, a program manager in the Energy Department's Office of High Energy Physics, said in one of the declarations filed today. "If U.S. physicists were enjoined from participating in experiments during that period, the U.S. would miss the early scientific benefits from its $531 [million] investment in the LHC." 

The government is seeking a summary judgment to drop the suit, based on the statute of limitations, or a dismissal based on the other grounds. Even if the suit goes forward, the government argues that Fermilab, one of the parties named by Sancho and Wagner, should be dropped from the list of defendants because it's not a legal entity separate from the Energy Department.

Plaintiff stays the course
"Of course we're going to oppose the motion," Wagner told me when I called him in Hawaii. He was still absorbing the text of documents, but he contested many of the government's claims - even the idea that Fermilab should be dropped from the suit.

He was intrigued by the claim that federal agencies' role in the LHC was totally finished.

"That's a strong argument, but I don't know if it's true or not," he said. "They're claiming that 'all we're going to do is sit back and watch,' and I don't believe that's true."

Wagner also took issue with CERN's latest safety report, although he said he was still reviewing it.

"With a safety study of this nature, you have to leave no stone unturned, and that hasn't yet been done. ... There are some valid concerns regarding some of the assumptions they're making." he said.

The bottom line for Wagner is that he'd like to have more time before the court's next hearing. "I don't want to be picking a date anytime soon for this," he said. "I'm going to request that they schedule a hearing at least three months down the road."

He also noted that CERN itself, which was named as a defendant in the lawsuit, wasn't off the hook. "CERN is in default," Wagner said. But does a European particle-physics lab come under federal jurisdiction? If you accept the arguments outlined in today's federal filings, the answer would likely be no.

What do you think? Feel free to add your comments and your questions below. Sometime in the next few days, I'm planning to interview one of the scientists behind CERN's safety report - and I'll try to pass along some of your questions about the Large Hadron Collider and the science behind the risk assessment.

Update for 9:30 p.m. ET June 24: I don't think I'll try posting all 40 documents (declarations, exhibits, etc.), but here's a PDF file of the federal defendants' key memorandum filed today.

Update for 1 p.m. ET June 25: The government's brief bases its motion for a summary judgment to end the suit on the idea that it's been more than six years since federal agencies awarded the funds for the LHC - and therefore the statute of limitations has run out. However, Morris Pripstein, the National Science Foundation's U.S. LHC program manager, notes that funds were awarded last year for research on the LHC. Doesn't that mean the time clock should be reset?

"Regarding the statute of limitations, the declaration by Pripstein squares with the government's arguments because we are arguing that the statute of limitations has run out on construction of the collider," Justice Department spokesman Andrew Ames told me in an e-mail. "The government's argument does not extend to the funding that NSF provided for testing and preparation of the detectors, or any funding for the upcoming research experiments."

Meanwhile, Wagner told me in a voicemail that he would contest the government's motion to dismiss the case merely by asserting that his complaint is valid - and that he'd contest the motion for summary judgment on the grounds that he saw no sworn affidavit relating to the motion. All this gets into legalistic waters that I hesitate to plumb. In the end, it'll be up to the judge in the case to sort out the procedural issues.

Update for 12:01 p.m. ET June 26: The Justice Department's Andrew Ames says the court has set a hearing on the motion to squelch the lawsuit on Sept. 2, "which means plaintiff's opposition is due on August 15 and our reply is due on August 22."

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Comments

While I understand the nature of the threat the plaintiff suggests, it is unfortunately mistaken and not grounded in math.  The court was right to dismiss this case.

While 14 tera-electron-volts sounds like an enormous amount of energy (and when it comes to colliders, it is), this amount of energy is focused in a space smaller than a single atom - it is the energy that is stored in the protons that are rushing around in a circle there, to make a gross simplification.

That energy, bound up in those protons, makes each one equivalent to approximately 2.5x10-23 kilograms (which is about 1,000 or 10,000 times the normal mass of a proton, I'm too lazy to check right now).  Assuming two collide, and their combined mass converts directly with 100% efficiency into a black hole (as was specified to be one of the fears of the experiment), we're now looking at a black hole with a mass of 5x10-23 kilograms.  

That's 0.00000000000000000000005 kilograms.  One cubic centimeter of water (about the volume of the end of your first finger) has a mass of 0.01 kilograms.  That's a pretty lightweight black hole.

"But wouldn't a black hole eat and get bigger?" comes the question.  Yes, indeed it would - and it would be so microscopic that it would probably pass through any shielding, eating a little here and there as it went, and assuming it wasn't travelling at escape velocity, would eventually orbit the center of gravity of the earth, slowly growing until one day it just ate the planet.  

However, the plaintiffs have forgotten a key element:  black holes radiate, in a fashion called "Hawking Radiation."  A black hole of the size of two protons at 14 TeV would radiate at a terrific rate of speed, and would evaporate rapidly.  

How rapidly?  Try 10 to the -83 power seconds.

So, while it might be created, it would evaporate so rapidly that it would only be visible to detectors watching it die in a splash of photons (and other particles).  

It's a nice, romantic concept that someone might end the earth doing one of these experiments, but we're no where nearly so powerful as to do that yet.  In fact, Ben Bova wrote a science fiction novel about such an accident called "Earth" (good book), if I remember the title right.  That's what made me originally learn the math to figure this stuff out.  In order to genuinely threaten the earth with a man-made black hole, you'd really have to start getting holes with masses ranging above the millions of kilograms - and we are centuries from being able to generate the kind of energy necessary for that sort of collider.

[ALAN ADDS: The court hasn't quite dismissed the case yet. That question will be considered at a time yet to be set. The novel "Earth" was written by David Brin, not Ben Bova (at least the novel about world-gobbling black holes), and it is a good one. In fact, I recommended it as a CLUB Club book selection four years ago: http://groups.msn.com/AlanBoylesCosmicLog/clubclub.msnw?
action=get_message&mview=1&ID_Message=572
 ]

Some questions please, and one extemporaneous comment:

1.   What is the LHC exactly for and why do we need the world's largest particle collider?  

2.  Why are we colliding particules on purpose, anyway?

3.  What does Stephen Hawking have to say about it?

4.  Can such LHC be converted to, or be used in the development of new weaponry?

Quite frankly, sounds like a great new Bond movie idea.

[ALAN ADDS: Everyone is free to weigh in on these questions, as always. We have a big package coming up in which I'll take a swing at most of these questions. We're just waiting to get a little closer to the startup.]

Shades of Tesla and the Tunguska region.

It's been fun reading you all.
Where's Samantha Carter and Dr. McKay when you need them?  Oh, wait, they went through the Stargate to another galaxy.  Can someone please send a message through the wormhole?
To be on the safe side, if this thing does create murderous holes, etc, lets 1st put all the scientist and their families right beside it.

They say it's safe right? Then they shouldn't worry !
What's the problem.
We always wanted to know what happend inside a black hole.
Here is our chance!!
This whole thing is ridiculous.  You may consider the concerns and worries about a "mini black-hole" viable, but all the doomsday worries are based on theories- people are just scared.  The phenomenoms they are afraid of this thing creating are not understood by us beyond more than theories.  

We can't understand a black hole until we can either make one or directly explore one- so why don't we just go find one and check it out?  ...yeah right.

Even the scientific methods used to locate potential black holes through telescopes (using theories involving gravity bending light) are based on just that- theories again.  And we can't even verify those are correct until we can travel to an object we've detected in space by that method and check to make sure it is where we predicted.  ...Since space is the only place we believe black holes exist.  

My point is that unless these events that are claimed to be at risk of happening are scientifically understood, their worries are only worries and should not even be looked at seriously in a court system where everything revolves around proven facts.
Idea for a t-shirt:

"CERN attempted to create the God Particle, and all I got was this lousy black hole."
Where does the money come from for building such garbage?  Why is this world in the state that it is in?   People today are lacking a relationship with GOD more than ever.. Seek GOD.   www.getshook.com
Theoretically there is no danger from the LHC.  Mark, the reason a micro-black hole wouldn't harm anything is the theoretical Hawking radiation, which causes a black hole to evaporate over time.  The black holes created by the LHC should evaporate much faster than they grow, causing them to disapate almost as soon as they're created.  Of course, Hawking radiation is only theoretical, but then again so are black holes.
Not enough mass to suck us all in including the light around us.  They would essentially have to create matter to generate enough mass.  If that were the case the moon would probably hit us and sheer gravity would kill us before getting sucked in the black hole.

Wow I think I came up with this all on a public school education.
All that money spent we could have burned it as an alternative fossil fuel and help keep oil cost down
How does one calculate the odds of something bad happening when the experiment you are attempting has never been attempted before?  This is a case of either/or:  If the black hole achieves the necessary excitation it will continue to grow (at whatever rate) and these guys won't be able to stop it, or launch it into space.  If there is even 1/1,000,000,000,000 chances of doomsday, is it worth risking 7 billion lives?
CERN..."God particle"...

You know the Ancient Babylonians thought they could reach God by building a tower high into the sky.  Of course this is impossible, but the arrogance in the thought they could angered God, and he afflicted them with multiple languages, halting the project and changing mankind forever.

What changes are we in store for?
Ya know, everyone has to die, eventually. Why not make it fun? :) I mean come on...what could be cooler to watch than a microscopic black hole slowly eating a person? Sounds like an awesome 'House' episode. :P I wonder if it would hurt....the plus side, say it was on your arm, time would slow down around the event horizon, and for a while, your arm would stay younger. So many potential markets for these things. :P OK, here's the best: A black hole GUN!!! YAY!!! But they should make the black holes a little bigger, so we can teach our kids to not step in them. Science is GREAT!!! Anyone should be more than willing to listen to any other side of an argument. If they don't want to listen, they are probably hiding something. 'Hey junior, wipe your feet, for Pete's sake, I don't want black holes all over the carpet!' But upon further examination, perhaps we should call them 'holes of color' :P oh wait, that would be the ABSENCE of color wouldn't it? aw fiddlesticks! Black holes it is. :P
The problem is you know that someone curious will want to go beyond the normal and make little microscopic black holes, and they would just think: hmm.. what happens if i put in just a little more energy. Then its way beyond any safety report or initial physicics calculation isnt it?
Being that I a physics major, LHC doe have the ablity to cause great harm, but not in the ways listed in this and other articles. The danger lies in the x-rays, and magnetic radiation it WILL generate, almost 7 billion time more than anything a human is exposed to in their average lifetime. THAT is what we should be worried about!
Mark, the theory is that any black holes that would be created would be very low-mass, and would evaporate via Hawking radiation BEFORE getting a chance to gobble the earth.

People say that "you aren't doing anything that cosmic rays aren't doing in the atmosphere anyway".  The difference (as I understand it) is that C-rays are going nearly light-speed relative to the earth when they strike the atmosphere, letting any singularities pass over or through the earth, whereas the head-on collisions in the LHC could create black-holes STATIONARY relative to the earth.  

I wouldn't want any black holes sitting around unless we know 1000% whether it will evaporate before sucking up our whole civilization.  Why not have additional safety reviews, conducted by independent parties and scientists outside of CERN? This is one call you really don't want to eff up.
Seems to me the two idiots who filed the lawsuit have spent more time watching Sci-Fi movies then researching actual scientific facts.  How much additional tax money is this frivolous lawsuit going to cost everyone?
While reading all of these comments, I can't help but hope and pray that the human race gets as excited about slowing global warming, reducing pollution, controlling the increasing acidity of the oceans, and stemming overpopulation.
Of course, I could be wrong. It happened once before. Big mess.
Even if this does destroy the planet, I'm not terribly concerned.  If we all die, then who will be left to regret it?  
Wrong Court!!! So would CERN even listen or care about a US Federal Judges decision?  What a waste of time and taxpayers money. If you are serious, please go to Europe and file in court there!
There are like four people on this thread who have the understanding to even comment.  The rest of us fall into two catagories: The ones who submit our ignorance to the experts, and the ones who think we are smarter than the experts.  The latter comprises all the jokers who think the end of the world is at hand.  What rock do you guys keep crawling out from under?  It must be pretty big for the lot of you to fit.
OK, you want odds? How about this? The Earth is hit by say one hundred Cosmic Rays with 1,000 times the energy of the LHC every day. It has been for 4 Billion years, and it's still here. That alone puts the odds of distruction at about 16 Trillion to one against. Now if you look at the much greater surface area of all the planets and the Sun in our solar system, which are all still here, the odds against  distruction go up to about 100 Million Trillion to one. If you consider all the stars in our galaxy, you are up around 10 billion billion trillion to one against destruction. The only reason CERN wont quote these odds is they don't want to admitt that there is ANY chance of destruction.  It's that little hidden tiny lie that scares people. If they would just be honest and admitt that the odds of destruction are one in a million trillion trillion, or whatever, we could have a resonable discussion about whether or not we want to take that chance. It's that little hidden tiny lie that bothers us all. We shouldn't have to lie to do our science. And we shouldn't be lied to by those in the know.
I think most of the people who dismiss the idea of danger are actually the most ignorant ones here.  I seriously doubt most of them even understand the science that they are endorsing.  Stephen Hawking talks of the theoretical existence of primordial black holes in A Brief History of Time.  He said that these, theoretically, could contain the mass of about a mountain.  But because of their size, they would evaporate until they hit a certain mass, at which point they would explode.  I think that the best way to understand the safety of these man-made black holes is that their mass is so immensely insignificant that they will evaporate within microseconds.  But I'm not a physics expert.  However, if it takes 16 billion years for a mountain-mass black hole to evaporate, I'd think that a proton-mass black hole would evaporate almost instantly.
Hey, let them turn it on. Europe doesn't support the USA in anything so if it eats them with a black hole no biggie. Since they are creating mico sized Black hole is should not eat more that 1/2 of Europe at best.
Then we can learn from their mistakes.
"The comment... contains false and misleading statements on the SPC report."

I would like to thank those responsible for producing this important report.

However, the section of the SPC Committee's report addressing Micro Black Hole safety contains only one sentence directly validating the cosmic ray and neutron star argument used repeatedly in the the 2008 LSAG Safety Report to show empirical evidence of safety from stable neutral micro black holes.  

Quote: "A powerful argument applicable also to higher energies is formulated making reference to observed neutron stars, but this argument relies on properties of cosmic rays and neutrinos that, while highly plausible, do require confirmation, as can be expected in the coming years.”

I think this statement speaks for itself, "properties of cosmic rays and neutrinos that, while highly plausible, do require confirmation"

If Enrique Fernandez and Fabio Zwirner are arguing that properties of cosmic rays and neutrinos somehow prove safety conclusively only up to Large Hadron Collider energies, and only require confirmation for colliders of higher energies, then I would be very interested in hearing their argument!

The equation still looks fairly similar to me:

Three strongly disputed assumptions… Micro Black holes are created or not, decay or not, grow slowly or not.

(And the cosmic ray arguments while highly plausible, do require confirmation, as can be expected in the coming years.)

LHCFacts.org
How on Earth do u say experiments like this has already been conducted. Head on collisions is new, 14TEV is new, Luminosity which determines the collision rate is 100 times more than any other collider built so far. RHIC fireball event, Bosenova-Einstein explosion are two events that arent expected to happen at RHIC but still happened. Everything never goes to our expectation. If this s what dat occurs naturally at far higher energy then why is d collider built if we can actually use detectors in space even some already were used. RHIC fireball event and Bosenova explosion should  have happened in cosmic rays as well if collider event is analogous to cosmic rays.
Chandrasekar limit is not derived in this Gen. All new models violate it.MBH are diff. from Blackholes. Right that event horizon is d one dat matters for accretion of matter. But at some relative momentum it has to strike d wall of tunnel where interaction with atoms could occur so does proton beam interaction with it (possible) if some weird physics happens as always in the past which eventually pushed the limits for various phenomenons. Accretion rate will be very very small at first but might increase with size as it Gobbles more and more atom.
Is any level of risk acceptable?  If scientists are that sure of the physics and the math- if they know how the experiment will turn out- why continue with it?  If naturally occurring phenomena produce the same kind of miniature black holes, why not trap them somehow and study them?  In short, isn't it true this sort of very expensive work does little except to stroke already bloated scientific egos?  What benefit can the average inhabitant of this planet expect to gain from this experiment?
well Ludlites and flat earthers in the 21st century
who would of known or guessed.  Fire it up and let science move forward
Science this and physics that. Does anybody else just think that it's time for humans to stop messing with things that really don't concern us? The human race in constantly striving for answers- and every answer just leads to more questions. Or problems in the case of our planet's current state. I don't really care what wonderful things this machine will do for science or what horrible consequences it might have. I just think that there are things in this world and beyond this world that we should have nothing to do with. The more we invent and create and study in terms of science, the deeper the hole we're digging for our planet and the environment.
Just because we can do a thing,does not mean we must do this thing.If there is just one person with a doubt,we owe it to ourselves as humans to err on the side of caution,unless we degrade ourselves and believe the majority of us is more important than the few.It's not a perfect world but it is the only one we got.
Actually, our galaxy, a spiral galaxy, has two black holes in the middle.  Black holes evaporate, a process whereby protons are quantum transported out, forming the Strange Attractors we see as patterns of stars and galaxies in the Universe.  A tiny black hole will most likely evaporate too quickly to be detected as a black hole.
Yes, It's probably not quite correct to even call these "slammed together" protons Black Holes. In fact they are really just a couple or few very condensed and energetic protons that will evaporate almost instantly, before they could p[ossibly absorb anything else, even if they were prone to, which seems doubtful.  It's clear these are not the traditional black holes that have the gravitational attraction to pull in large objects from great distances.  These are tiny sub-microscopic spots of very condensed matter that would be highly unstable if they exist at all. The fact is, no one knows for sure untill the experiment is done, but I for one am not convinced that anything can be observed other than a little flash of light.  That is, if a "Black Hole" is created and evaporates in the order of Planck time or less, then it really never existed at all, since it can't be measured. The only thing we can say that existed is a little tiny flash of light, which is all that I expect the LHC to detect. Of course, I could be wrong.
The Science of Discovery.  it is interesting that Colombus is mentioned.  

Colombus wasn't looking for a new world, he was looking for a new passage to the Far East and stumbled across the Americas.  You could argue this "discovery" in both positive and negative light - the expansion of Europeans into the Americas or the collapse of the Native Americans following colonization of the New World.

So if you really want to look at Colombus achievement in a true light, he failed, but look at the cool stuff he found along the way.
I have concerns, but in the grand scheme of things going out in a black-hole is alot better than withering away from cancer, starvation, disease, or random acts of violence committed on one human by another. It's certainly alot more poetic and ironic a fate than we deserve as a species.
I think everyone would be able to let go of this concern if we had a couple of percentage-wise answers from the Physics community:
1. Does eveyone with the relevant experience agree with Stephan Hawking about small black holes evaporating? If not, why not, and what they believe the percentage chance is that Hawking is wrong.
2. What is the percentage chance of any LHC collison products being created at angular velocities below that of gravitational escape of at least the earth.
Well i smell a scifi movie being made about this...oh wait there is one its called The Mist by stephen king...
I randomly came across this interesting little debate. The remarks regarding nuclear weapons has some truth; ideally such projects should only be performed in the safest environment (ie not on earth), but this is obviously not practical. I think such fears are unwarrented with this project- I mean, we have an energy crisis and we still haven't developed a self-sustaining fusion reactor, don't think we'll be making black holes anytime in the near future. However, I do think back the movie "The Quiet Earth."
John MW, Hot Springs
Of course, you have to get to the event horizon, the event horizon is there, however, as a result of the force of gravity, something that doesn't operate only if theoretical Physicists find it convienient to do so for the course of a particular experiment.

It seems to me the heart of the matter is do MBH's evaporate, as Hawking expects, and how soon do they do so.  What does the high powered end of the community say about those who dispute Hawking's contention about the fate of an MBH?
"There is a very good reason the LHC will not produce black holes:  The calculations done by Chandrakasar on the process of stellar collapse.  His calculations demonstrated that a mass of at least 1.4 solar masses are needed for a black hole to form.  This minimum mass is known as the Chandrakasar Limit.

The equivalent mass of the particles in the LHC, based on energy values, is less than that of a tennis ball.  This is many orders of magnitude less than the Chandrakasar Limit."

Thats not true. We aren't talking about a star slowly collapsing due to its own gravity and internal pressure. Black holes created by natural stellar processes do have a cut-off for their mass, but only because neutron stars are stable to a certain density, and without an outside force, they will stay as neutron stars and not collapse any further. Doesn't mean it isn't possible by other mechanisms. Theoretically, if you have enough energy to smash enough matter into a sufficiently tiny space, you can make black holes with diameters of 1 mm or smaller if you so pleased.
I am so glad the clowns and naysayers that talk about us not doing this or not trying that have little control over our future in science.   Your attitude completely confounds me and would have felt right at home in the 13th century repressing knowledge for no good reason other than they do not understand it.   People that say we should not be spending money on these kind projects but should be instead spent on making their gas guzzler more affordable by reducing gas prices are simply terrifying in their shortsightedness.
HAWKING RADIATION FOR THE WIN!!!!!! (and the salvation of earth =D)
First, addressing Delmar Fairchild's conspiracy theories concerning liberal judges "legislating from the bench", how is it that people like you can make EVERYTHING into a political issue?  Your comment is utterly irrelevant and deliberately inflammatory.  Save it for your "We never went to the Moon" chat room.

Second, what a lot of readers seem to be losing sight of is that this blog isn't about whether or not the activation of LHC is safe or responsible.  It's about a retired physicist and a science writer filing a lawsuit to stop Congress from allocating any more money to the project on the grounds that it hasn't been sufficiently failsafed.  What are their motivations?  Who cares?  The only possible outcomes are the US continues to be invested in the project or not.

The LHC is going to be activated regardless of what the judge decides.  Worrying about what happens next is like worrying about getting killed by a falling satellite - it's not going to change a thing.

Either LHC will do more or less exactly what the physicists operating it think it will or it won't.  In the worst case scenario you won't have time to panic or even realize what's going on before you get to find out if your particular brand of religion is the right one.

Given that I'd rather see US interests represented in the likely event that this thing goes off without a hitch and important scientific discoveries are made.  
Mark, Indianapolis, IN (Sent Wednesday, June 25, 2008 12:35 AM)


Mark-

Without getting to involved... it breaks down like this:

Blackholes really aren't black.  They emit energy, look up 'Hawking Radiation'.  It is scientifically proven that Blackholes eventually evaporate, and cease to exist.  The Blackholes that could possibly be created by the LHC are smaller than microscopic.  They would have more matter around them than they could consume.  They will eat their fill, and then blink out of existence without having done anything, except give the Pros from Dover something else to study and ponder.
Hey, hold my beer for me and I'll throw the switch on the thing myself..better change the constitution to the constitional right to bear a black hole also, every thug out there will want one, now lets get to work on a stable worm hole, now there is something we could all appreciate.
"Q: Could the cosmic microwave background radiation be a form of Hawking radiation?

The context to this question is Hawking’s radical prediction in 1974 that black holes could emit thermal radiation, thereby allowing some black holes to ultimately shrink and disappear. The cosmic microwave background radiation is the remnant radiation left over from the Big Bang.

A: In the slow inflationary scenario, the cosmic microwave background radiation is not Hawking radiation. However, the fluctuations in the microwave background detected by WMAP (a NASA spacecraft) can be regarded as Hawking radiation from the inflationary period. Thus, in a sense, Hawking radiation has already been observed. So maybe I should get a Nobel Prize.

Q: According to general relativity, white holes, the opposite of black holes, which spew matter into the universe, can exist. But we’ve never found them. What would we see with our telescopes if we did?

A: When black holes are large, things fall in. but they give off very little Hawking radiation. So they are essentially black. But when they are very small they radiate more than they accrete. So they are essentially white. Black and white holes are the same, just with different boundary conditions. If the boundary conditions are that particles are going in, but nothing is coming out, we call it a black hole. On the other hand, if the boundary conditions are that particles are going out but nothing is coming in, we call it a white hole."

this is an excerpt from the stephen hawking interview at some school or other...

"It is scientifically proven that Blackholes eventually evaporate, and cease to exist."

this is an excerpt from terrel davis, above.

this page:

http://www.universetoday.com/2007/06/20/are-microscopic-black-holes-buzzing-inside-the-earth/

describes the possibility of ancient MBHs inside planets and stars, even the gas giants Saturn and Jupiter.

http://www.auger.org/news/PRagn/AGN_correlation.html

desribes the speed at which the particles that strike our atmosphere are traveling at (Approx. "100 million times higher than the most powerful particle accelerator on Earth..."

http://www.interactions.org/quantumuniverse/qu2006/summary/

gives a summary of what the LHC project is proposing to discover

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=163

describes the life span of a black hole

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=572

describes how long it will take a black hole to eat the earth: "If you factor that in [Hawking Radiation], it would probably *never* consume the whole Earth.

and finally:

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=139
http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/black_hole_sun.html

both describe what a black hole is capable of sucking in and how gravity is affected by mass, respectively.

Fly you FOOLS!!
Anyone with a shred of intellect could tell that this is really the forge where the One Ring will unmake the world and bring on the arrival of Jesus Christ... In the Year 2060, as foretold by Issac Newton...
***
Okay.. got that out of my system.
Contact your local Bone Marrow Donor Center and you might be able to save someones life, beats whining about nonsense like this.

Peace Out.


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