ABOUT COSMIC LOG

Quantum fluctuations in space, science, exploration and other cosmic fields... served up regularly by MSNBC.com science editor Alan Boyle since 2002.

Alan Boyle covers the physical sciences, anthropology, technological innovation and space science and exploration for MSNBC.com. He is a winner of the AAAS Science Journalism Award, the NASW Science-in-Society Award and other honors; a contributor to "A Field Guide for Science Writers"; and a member of the board of the Council for the Advancement of Science Writing.

Check out Boyle's biography or send a message to Cosmic Log via cosmiclog@msnbc.com.



Report rules out subatomic doomsday

Posted: Friday, June 20, 2008 12:57 PM by Alan Boyle


CERN
A simulation shows the particle tracks that scientists
think could be given off by the decay of a black hole
in the Large Hadron Collider's ATLAS detector.

Europe's CERN particle-physics lab has issued its long-awaited report on safety issues surrounding the Large Hadron Collider, the world's biggest and most expensive atom-smasher. Some have feared that when the collider reaches full power, sometime next year, it might create microscopic black holes or other exotic phenomena that could endanger Earth. The new report, like earlier safety studies, rules out the possibility of global danger.

Critics of the collider are pursuing a federal lawsuit challenging the safety claims - and they're likely to continue the doomsday debate even in the wake of this report.

The report's argument follows the basic line used in past reports: Even the most energetic collisions planned for the LHC are far less powerful than cosmic-ray collisions that have been going on for billions of years.

"Nature has already generated on Earth as many collisions as about a million LHC experiments – and the planet still exists," CERN said in its lay-language summary of the report. "Astronomers observe an enormous number of larger astronomical bodies throughout the universe, all of which are also struck by cosmic rays. The universe as a whole conducts more than 10 million million LHC-like experiments per second. The possibility of any dangerous consequences contradicts what astronomers see - stars and galaxies still exist."

The report also delves into the theoretical implications even if it turns out that microscopic black holes may hang around longer than most scientists think, and still ends up ruling out the catastrophic risk. In the stable-black-hole scenario, physicists do not expect the black holes to gobble up matter and grow to a monster size. Instead, they would interact - or not interact - with the particles they came across.

You'll want to start with CERN's summary document and then check out the full report. The report was reviewed by outside experts, and a separate report lays out what they had to say.

CERN discussed the safety report in a news release today, issued after this week's meeting of the CERN Council. Here's the text:

"At its 147th meeting in Geneva today, the CERN Council heard news on progress towards start-up of the laboratory's flagship research facility, the Large Hadron Collider (LHC). Commissioning of the 27-kilometre LHC began in January 2007 when the first cooldown of one of the machine's eight sectors began. Today, five sectors are at or close to their operating temperature of 1.9 degrees above absolute zero and the remaining three are approaching that temperature. Once all sectors are cold, electrical testing will be concluded in readiness for first beams, currently scheduled for August.

"'The accelerator, detectors and computing are all on course,' said CERN Director General Robert Aymar, 'and we are looking forward to the earliest possible LHC start-up.'

"When the LHC starts up this summer, its proton beams will collide at higher energies than have ever been produced in a particle accelerator. The collision energy of the LHC, however, is modest compared to the energies of the cosmic ray protons that have been striking the Earth's atmosphere for billions of years.

"'The LHC is the highest-energy particle accelerator on Earth,' said Dr. Aymar, 'but the universe has far more powerful ones. The LHC will enable us to study in detail under laboratory conditions what nature is doing already.'

"The LHC is subject to numerous audits covering all aspects of safety and environmental impact. The latest of these, addressing the question of whether there is any danger related to the production of new particles at the LHC, was presented to Council at this meeting. Updating a 2003 paper, this new report incorporates recent experimental and observational data.

"It confirms and strengthens the conclusion of the 2003 report that there is no cause for concern. The report was prepared by a group of scientists at CERN, the University of California, Santa Barbara, and the Institute for Nuclear Research of the Russian Academy of Sciences.

"'With this report, the Laboratory has fulfilled every safety and environmental evaluation necessary to ensure safe operation of this exciting new research facility,' said Dr. Aymar.

"The new report has been reviewed by the Scientific Policy Committee (SPC), a body that advises the CERN Council on scientific matters. A panel of five independent scientists, including one Nobel laureate, reviewed and endorsed the authors' approach of basing their arguments on irrefutable observational evidence to conclude that new particles produced at the LHC will pose no danger. The panel presented its conclusions to this week's meeting of the full 20 members of the SPC, who unanimously approved this conclusion.

"'It was right for the Director General of CERN to commission a formal assessment of safety issues, examining even the most unlikely of scenarios,' said Council President Torsten Åkesson. 'This new report concludes that there is no basis for any concern, a position endorsed by the 20 independent experts who form the SPC.'

The news release confirms that researchers will start sending beams through the LHC in August rather than July - but the startup procedure is expected to take months, with actual collisions coming later, and collisions at full power coming later still.

We've been following this issue for a while, and once you've looked over the report, I'm sure you'll want to weigh in with your comments below.

MAIN PAGE

Email this EMAIL THIS

Comments

DOOM! Repent! The End is Nigh!
The Overcoming Bias blog had an excellent point that while likely correct, the older report on this topic seems to have been written from the premise that there was no danger, and then went on to support that position.  A better approach would have been to look at the topic much more neutrally.  
I dont believe we are in any real danger, other than learning more about the universe around us.  Thats not even a danger, just a good idea!
Probably 30 years ago, I had a bad idea for a movie based on a graduate student predicting that a new particle accelerator would destroy the universe when it started up. Now it's happening (I mean people warning about the catastrophe). I compared that situation to the current experiment we're unintentionally conducting on global warming in my blog. (Look for dangerous experiments.)
Would hate to have a mini-blackhole in existence for a couple years before it hits a flashpoint.  Might validate the Mayan Calendar's end.
If you COULD make a stable black hole it'd be one hell of a research tool.
The danger in a black hole is due to it's mass creating incredible gravitational forces, not it's density.  Therefore, even if the LHC is capable of creating points in space where the density of matter is as great as a black hole, they won't have anything even approaching enough mass to create the gravitational forces to hold that mass in place let alone suck the rest of the earth in as the luddites fear.  
Between the desire, And the spasm
Between the potency, And the existence
Between the essence, And the descent
Falls the Shadow
For Thine is the Kingdom


For Thine is, Life is, For Thine is the

This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.

—T.S. Eliot

H-I-G-G-S

I’m just kidding, you purveyors of the apocalypse. Good hunting!
And for reference, the Earth has been hit many billions (if not trillions) of times by cosmic rays thousands to millions of times more powerful than this accelerator can produce. In the end, it's a very down scaled and weak replica of natural processes that have repeatedly occurred over many billions of years to every bit of exposed matter in our universe.
If we end up having a mini black hole in our yard we should just do what we do best.... blast it to pieces with one of our rockets.
People love to bring up the Mayan calendar, yet they know very little about it or why it stops at 2012. The assumptions of the end of the world have grown in the hundred of thousands over the last few thousand years, yet we still are here. If something were to go wrong at CERN, I'm sure we'd be gone before 2012. The possiblity of mass wipeout is probably one in a billion. We are most likely in more danger of an asteroid collision.
Yes, cosmic rays have been hitting earth for millions of years, yet they leave out one little detail, the earth is not moving at light speed, in fact earth can't move a centimeter without getting hit by cosmic rays, so how can CERN physicists compare the experiment at the Large Hadron Collider, where nothing is stationary, to cosmic rays hitting a stationary planet. The Protons in the LHC are traveling at each other at light speed till they collide, which is not happening in nature. Now if CERN physicists want to mimic what's happening in nature, then one set of protons at the LHC should be hitting stationary protons.

Think of Earth as a pool table, when cosmic rays hit stationary earth particles, like a cue ball hitting racked balls, the particles as well as the cosmic ray bounce harmlessly into space. Now if you were to have two cue balls collide at the same speed and point, like what will happen with the protons at the Large Hadron Collider, the cue balls will collide and stay right where they collided, like the protons at the LHC. Nothing bounces away. Now if the colliding protons create a stationary black hole that is stable, gravity will take place, and the black hole will gravitate to the center of the earth where it will grow.

Physicists state black holes created at the LHC will evaporate due to a theoretical process, Hawking Radiation, which has been onced proved to be in error due to a lost bet by Stephen Hawking. Hawking Radiation has never been witnessed or proven to exist, but they're willing to risk the world in hope it does exist for fame and fortune.
I think the people with concerns have a right to have their concerns addressed in court. Personally, I don't think it will be the end of the world. It's obvious the Tribulation hasn't occurred nor is that the way the end of the world is described in the Bible.

However, that's not to say that it might not cause some kind of domino effect that will bring about the end, or that knowledge gained from its use won't do the same. As for me, I don't care. Collider or no collider, the end is near and there's nothing we can do to change the outcome (or even the series of events that must take place). I welcome the end as I know where my eternal resting place will be. Do you?

Revelation 22:

20He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
     Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

21The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.
Dang, there goes my excuse for an "End of the World" party.  Aww, what the heck - I'm gonna throw the party anyway! lol
Sad news; I was hoping to use one of those tiny black holes to help me clean out my garage!
Anyone who thinks the scientists conducting an experiment cannot get "too close" and miss something important ought to look at the "Castle Bravo" nuclear test and what happened there.    Everyone missed it.  Scientists aren't infallible even when they tell us they're infallible.  

Douglas, it's called "relativity".  Look it up.
Very well written comment, Douglas. My thanks for such an insightful view.
I find the religious zealots fascinating, not because they bring anything to the table, but rather that they pretend to know, with great passion and certainty, when the end of the world will come, which is based solely upon a book of fairytales.

Yes, we are all going to die.  Our lives will end, and the matter that made up our bodies will be reused again and again.  Nothing is ever wasted or destroyed.  There will be no second chances nor afterlife, no heaven nor hell.  Our only practical option is to try and make life better here on earth.  Eventually, the earth will die, as will our sun.  We know this with great certainty.  The question is what will we do to overcome this limitation?

The religious zealots are a waste of humanity and energy.
The end wont come until 12/21/12 (per the Aztecs) so why worry, get thee to vegas and have some fun!!!
I don't think that scientists should rely so heavily on the prospect that hawking radiation exists as there is little to no evidence supporting it.

Putting that much weight into a theory, in my opinion, is an unacceptable risk.

Seeing as it is 7 times (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) larger than its predecessors, the LHC has a lot of room to approach full power and still go beyond what's already known. I think we should start from where we left off with previous particle colliders and study it, and I think that they should ease into it instead of just testing it and going for the gold.

"The planet’s survival has become so uncertain that any effort, any thought that presupposes an assured future amounts to a mad gamble."

- Elias Canetti
Projects like Cern are themselves monstrous black holes gobbling up billions of taxpayer money for a return of about one elemental particle every ten years. Who needs religious fundamentalists when the true zealots wear lab coats.
Someone needs to locate an old piece of film from the Manhattan Project.
Oppenheimer and The Boys are hiding in a bunker, awaiting the light-off of The Big One numero uno.
They are really nervous about the possibility of the chain reaction being unstoppable.
Nervous, but giddy.
Johnny Von Neumann...the human calculator...who was actually an unfortunate, childlike math savant being utilized as a computer...sat against a wall* in the fetal postion, sucking his thumb, and shivering...he was that scared.
Oppenheimer glared at him, and the rest is History.
They were like tittering old women at their first porn flick...no kiddin'!
The films shown on History Channel, etc. have been seriously edited...find the entire sequence to see Von Neumann.
Point being...the worst did not happen...but, they really didn't know up to the moment of ignition...and they set it off anyway.
Up to the point that Hadron produces the Black Hole from Hell, or doesn't...we'll never know for certain...it happens that way, movin' West, Kids...
*I always thought the whole  bend over and kiss your butt goodbye idea came from him...same position...same possibility...sorta...
Forge Ahead, Kids!
Douglas,

One cue ball hitting another is equivalent in energy to two cue balls approaching each other at half the velocity. The 2*1/2m(v/2)^2 appears smaller, but in the case of the resting cue ball, after the collision the resting cue ball carries away more kinetic energy relative to the observer. But it is all relative.
 
They don't seem the same when you look at real cue balls, but that is because you are comparing in to the pool table. There is no cosmic pool table to compare to.

Joe "The danger in a black hole is due to it's mass creating incredible gravitational forces, not it's density."

The problem is that a seed black whole might not have much gravity, but if it comes near other atoms it will keep sucking them in an grow until it does have a lot of gravity. The fact that this doesn't happen with cosmic rays is what is convincing.
I'm just curious about one thing (okay, more than one thing but I'll keep it to just one here)... I'm wondering how many Particle Physicists are actually sitting judges?  I mean, how do we expect a judge whose training is in law, not physics, to render a decision as to whether or not the LHC is going to create black holes?
wow everyone is freaking out here. the  collider will not kill us all. an even if it did, it would be an improvement to the earth. religion has destroyed our vaules and our planet. besides god never taught me how to spell either. even if the pro's make a mini-sucker. it would not have enough mass to hold together for very long at all. and at a mass of 2 protons (quite tiny for a black hole lmao!!!!) the gravity emitted by it would be less than a piece of dust. in fact tht same piece of dust would seem huge , huge , huge to tht mini black hole. so how bout we just continue comments about how bad my grammer and spelling is. cause you relig freaks are just killing us all with your god made it so i dont question. knowledge is power and it seems religion doesnt have the power to control the people ne more. so they have to destroy science. well who else do you fight when there is no one to fight you, thts right, the curious.
Douglas - "the earth is not moving at light speed"

How is the earth not moving at light speed?

Everything in the universe is moving at light speed through either space or time.

Just depends on your frame of reference.
ROFL And what makes people and more special is... why are you bringing up 2012? The calander doesn't really end then. It starts over again for the new world. We've already been through 4 or 5 of them. Do your research before you flip out people. Jeeze.
I'm sure there were many doomsdayers out there saying the world would end when we tested the first nuclear bomb.
is anyone here even qualified to speculate on any outcome or happenings???

The  Bible is just a book, there is no science behind it.  Just like any book it was written be men
And all that stuff about other radical concepts, like "fire" and "flight" should also have been avoided because of thier potential damage.
I was hoping for a black hole to swallow the Earth.
I consider myself very much for technology, but can find a loophole for consideration.  Cosmic rays are moving at considerable velocities relative to the Earth or for that fact all bodies in the universe.  Any microscopic black holes created by Cosmic Rays would to a high degree of probability leave the area of space occupied by the Earth in due time.  

The question is, then, would any microscopic black holes produced by and Earth-stationary collider remain in the same space of the Earth over an extended period of time be a threat?  

Given this consideration, a comparison to cosmic rays suddenly becomes less appropriate. Granted, velocities obtained within the collider should be significant enough to eject microscopic black holes from the Earth's vicinity and perhaps rule out this consideration.  And in that light, I would remind others that a flat comparison to similar phenomena is only valid when the conditions are identical.  I certainly hope the differences I have brought up were taken into careful review by the scientific community.
The primary fallacy of most religions is their claim to know that which is not knowable. The nature of creation...the existence of an afterlife... and a myriad of other concepts about which there is no data. But this can also be said of the proponents of the LHC. The fact is, nobody knows. Period.
Douglas said:

"Now if you were to have two cue balls collide at the same speed and point, like what will happen with the protons at the Large Hadron Collider, the cue balls will collide and stay right where they collided, like the protons at the LHC. Nothing bounces away."

Douglas, I suggest you try this experiment with cue balls and report back. Where did you get such an idea? What happens to the kinetic energy? Run a couple of blobs of putty together and you have more of a point. The blobs will heat up if they don't bounce.

Blogging at onscreen-scientist.com.
The report does not ignore the idea that a black hole created at slow speeds relative to the earth might be a problem.  What it says (without offering any proof) is that some black holes created even with high speeds relative to nearby dense stars would have been stopped as they flew through those stars.  Apparently some calculations indicate that if such black holes could be created and cause a problem, these stars should be disappearing into black holes, but that their demonstrated lifespans indicate that this is not happening.

It seems to me that if cosmic rays are passing through everything all the time in huge numbers, that head on collisions similar to what particle accelerators create should be happening near neutron stars.  Since neutron stars aren't all being converted into black holes, it doesn't seem likely to me that there is much chance, if any, that there will be any problem.
Oh, like the scientists are going to tell the truth and ruin their chances of finding out what will happen! We don't have a choice but to wait and see...just like we didn't have a choice of going to war. So what does it matter...just wait and see where it takes us. We are only along for the ride!

I for one am putting in my order for my very own tiny black hole!
this is all very confusing - should i get ready for the rapture? is there no god? will the value of my house go down even more? do i need plastic sheets and duk tape? - what a terrible state we is in
Simple experiment: Open the drain in a full bath tub and  
look at the shadow created by the vortex. Measure it the way you would a black hole. Oh no... what were we thinking.
@Borlock: uh no. Earth doesn't travel at light speed. Light from Earth does - but the planet itself doesn't. Otherwise we'd have some problems. (Light:299,792,458m/s vs. Earth: 67,000 MPH-ish I ball-parked it. Anyway not even close to light speed).

And *everything* moving through time at light speed depending on your frame of reference?" Also, no. Not unless you have a really interesting frame of reference that isn't in any way based on known concepts. Again, *everything* cannot move at light speed without some very serious and very noticeable problems in orbits, having daylight, etc.

@John: Expert witnesses will be produced by each side and will be cross-examined by their respective opponents. The court will make a decision based on the more credible evidence presented by each side. So the Judge will judge the case based on the strength/weakness of the arguments presented before her/him.

Borlock,

You're right, but thats not convincing to Douglas or most people because they have no understanding of special relativity.
I seriously doubt that this machine will destroy the world, but even if it does, there would be no way to stop it, no place to go, and nothing left over, excluding a black hole. So, does the outcome really matter? the Manhattan Project was calculated to possibly immolate the globe with an unstoppable atom-splitting chain reaction, but they did it anyway.  If the Hadron Accelerator succeeds, it will be a great stride ahead in our understanding of the universe. If it fails, nobody will be alive to argue the point. Everybody dies, and furthermore, you never know untill you try. And as for the mass-vs.-gravity points about the micro-black holes, to generate the required gravity to consume the earth, the black hole would need enough mass in the first place to start assimilating other particles, something that seems improbbable with a meass of two protons.
Even if one were created, miminmal mass & gravitational effects.  By most theroies, Hawking Radiation would cause it to evaporate in short order anyway.
Borlock the Earth is not moving at the speed of light, space itself is expanding... that is not the same thing.
what if it opens the door to a hostile world or another realm/dimension, where we have no way to close it and a creature/entity/being, bent on our destruction is accidentally released on earth.
the machine itself can not not produce enough energy to build what you all conspiracy theorist are predicting about (black hole my A$$).  Read more so so y'all clouded brain will help you realize or clear up y'all brain and understand about this collider.

All I have to say is that decades ago, scientists said smoking doesn't cause cancer.  The point is no one knows for sure what's going to happen, because it's never been done before.
Learning and science is not always a bad thing - spending our tax money to do it is a sham. I hate to see us spend so much on this and not fund other important things like infastructure like bridges and roads and dams...

I am not too worried about black holes and the like. This is how we learn about them laws of the universe and physics. Yes we will make mistakes - we always do.
I am all of experimenting and science...
Jesus is coming, and is he pissed!

The end of the world is nigh!

Come on, look at the reality - we have discovered how many extrasolar planets now? If they see ours "wink out", maybe they'll get the idea about a population that became a planetary infestation, and destroyed itself, and the LHC is the least of our problems. If we get smart enough to meet other civilizations that might be out there, we should first learn to solve our problems at home, and not follow the beat of a drum that leads us into conflict.

Otherwise, we could be doing any extraterrestial neighbors that we may have a favor...


SEND A COMMENT

PLEASE READ: All comments must be approved before appearing in the thread; time and space constraints prevent all comments from appearing. We will only approve comments that are directly related to the blog, use appropriate language and are not attacking the comments of others.

Message (please, no HTML tags. Web addresses will be hyperlinked):

TRACKBACKS

Trackbacks are links to weblogs that reference this post. Like comments, trackbacks do not appear until approved by us. The trackback URL for this post is: http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/trackback.aspx?PostID=1158097

Latest Tech & Science News

Syndicate This Site

Add Cosmic Log to your news reader:
live.com xml
myyahoo msn
bloglines newsgator
google