Doomsday under debate

Posted: Monday, June 16, 2008 6:15 PM by Alan Boyle

CERN

A simulation shows the particle tracks that scientists
think could be given off by the decay of a black hole
in the Large Hadron Collider's ATLAS detector.

The world's largest particle collider is designed to do its job largely under the surface - and that under-the-surface status also applies to much of the progress in the legal case challenging whether the collider should actually be allowed to do its job.

Take today's seven-minute-long conference in Hawaii's U.S. District Court, for example: The meeting set up the schedule for a federal trial, due to begin a year from today, on a suit seeking to hold up operations at Europe's Large Hadron Collider while officials answer claims that the machine could create world-gobbling black holes or other monsters.

Under the surface, both sides are aiming to get what they want long before June 16, 2009.

The suit's plaintiffs, Luis Sancho and Walter Wagner, hope to get the court to agree to their claims at yet another hearing expected to take place this summer. The defendants, representing the U.S. Department of Energy and other federal agencies, hope to get the suit dismissed.

The plaintiffs as well as the defendants telegraphed their plans in documents that were filed leading up to today's scheduling conference. We've already discussed how Sancho and Wagner see it: They say the LHC's operators haven't adequately addressed their claims that the LHC could produce those black holes, or other exotic phenomena known as strangelets or magnetic monopoles. They want to hold Europe's CERN particle-physics center and the U.S. agencies working with CERN responsible for answering the questions to their satisfaction.

In their filings to date, the federal attorneys don't take on the scientific debate, but confine themselves to legal issues. Here are some of the main points:

They'll file a motion to dismiss the suit by June 24.
One of the grounds for dismissal is that the plaintiffs filed their suit after the statute of limitations had expired, based on the timing of international agreements for U.S. participation.
The federal attorneys also contend that the U.S. parties have finished construction of the items they agreed to provide, and that they are not responsible for LHC operations themselves. That would move the ball into Europe's court, so to speak.
The attorneys say that the plaintiffs don't have the proper standing for challenging LHC operations, and that the federal government is "immune from suit for alleged violations" relating to European environmental guidelines.
They say one of the defendants named in the suit, the Fermilab particle-physics facility, is a "federally owned, contractor-operated laboratory that is not an independent legal entity subject to suit."
Even if the plaintiffs' case isn't dismissed, the federal attorneys claim that the proper way to address the claims is through a review of the administrative record rather than a trial.

While the federal government plans to file a motion to dismiss the suit, the plaintiffs - that is, Sancho and Wagner - plan to file a motion for a preliminary injunction that would put a hold on LHC operations until CERN lets them review an updated safety report. Once they're filed, the two motions could be heard together during a session yet to be scheduled by Judge Helen Gillmor. Here's what Sancho and Wagner have hinted at in their own filings:

They say that the U.S. parties will continue to be involved in consulting with the LHC's staff and maintaining the parts they provided. They also say federal agencies have a duty to continue reviewing their involvement. From the plaintiffs' standpoint, that means the court still has jurisdiction in the case.
They're planning to seek their preliminary injunction in late July, with an eye toward holding up LHC operations until next year's trial.
They want to amend their complaint to seek a jury trial, and to include yet another challenge to research that may involve the creation of microscopic black holes.

Wagner told me the new legal twist relates to years-old reports about the possibility of creating "optical black holes" from ultra-cold atoms of rubidium. This phenomenon, which has been nicknamed the "Bosenova," recently created a stir in some Internet circles.

"I don’t want to be filing something that turns out to be bogus, but if it's something that's out there, and is a viable technique ... then it has to be considered, and it needs to be reviewed by a lot of people," Wagner said.

It's not yet clear whether the court will allow the current lawsuit to be expanded - or, for that matter, whether the lawsuit will go forward or face dismissal. That will have to wait for this summer's court hearing, probably in late July or August.

In the meantime, CERN officials are moving ahead with a report that updates a six-year-old study contending the LHC is scientifically safe. The updated study from the LHC Safety Assessment Group is expected to come before CERN's Scientific Policy Committee and the CERN Council during meetings this week - and if the process goes as planned, that hotly anticipated report should be released to the public soon afterward.

Wagner said he'll believe it when he sees the actual report: "I don't know what they're going to do at that meeting, or whether they're going to release it or not," he said.

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Comments

Uneducated vs. Educated huh? How about these educated folks, educate us dumb hillbillies on what the heck they are doing. Maybe if we understood more, and were mor INFORMED, then Science would not see as much conflict on new ideas. What are the Risks vs the Reward, that is what I want to know.

Mike Torbert (Sent Tuesday, June 17, 2008 5:49 PM)

I may be a lowly teen with no original thought of my own, but this all seems a bit egotistical to me. what makes anyone beleive that they have the right to tamper with nature? what can truly be gained by this? How the planet was created? is it that important for scientists to disprove the existence of any god? in the long run is it really that detrimental to the advancement of civilization? Why can we not spend this money to help educate this world? I'm not so naive that I think there can be a perfect world or anyting close to that, but with all of the problems facing the long-term survival and advancement of the ENTIRE world, why do we allow our scientists (our Educated individuals who supposedly know what they're doing)to potentially endanger the continuation of life (not just human life) by producing something that is meant to be the answer to cretion, but may turn out to be the destruction of it?

C. Giveans, New Orleans, LA (Sent Tuesday, June 17, 2008 5:56 PM)

Scientists made the 100 megaton 3-stage thermonuclear bomb. I feel much safer now that they're working on a sequel to that.

Rick Cain, Tulsa, OK (Sent Tuesday, June 17, 2008 5:57 PM)

Wow!

It's amazing how poorly people spell, let alone understand physics!

John (Sent Tuesday, June 17, 2008 6:04 PM)

THIS is one of the most exciting moments in HUMAN history! The (possible) discovery of a particle that can unify Quantum physics and The theory of Relativity. It's true, No one knows the outcome of these experiments, but I think I speak for most people when I say that the results will severely outweigh the risks. Especially since you have the top minds working night and day for many, many years on this project.

Now, here you have these two "scientists" who , in my own opinion, are extremely naive and ignorant to the situation at hand. Regardless of the work they have done on it in the past. Otherwise they would have been employed to work on this project. Like many other people have already stated in previous responses, there are always going to be people scared of something they are not familiar with. This is what is going to make or break our species. We need to invest in the future of our civilization and run these tests and experiments. We need to gain the full knowledge of physics and other fields of science for that matter to persevere as a civilization. Contrary to popular belief, we are still in our infant stage of existence and need the scientific knowledge to solve the many problems of a growing species. As we come into a time where countries' borders and cultural boundries are no longer clearly defined, we need to come together as a species, not a country, not a race, not a religion. This is the only way to evolve (for those of you that do subscribe to the FACT of evolution) as a species. We are not meant to stay on this planet. We are a explorative species and will only expand in our understanding of the Universe and beyond.

Now how can we let so few stand in the way of some of the greatest discoveries in HUMAN history. This is just the beginning and I, for one, would love to be alive to experience as many of these great discoveries as I can. So let's send a message and get rid of these speed bumps in the road.

Ryan, Rochester NY (Sent Tuesday, June 17, 2008 6:44 PM)

Physicists say that a micro B-H should self detonate within a few billionths of a second, however a B-H does not live by our time scale, a few billionths of a second for the hole may be a few hours for us, long enough to annihilate the planet. Many physicists have witnessed the effects of time dilation on particles produced by the current generation of accelerators that have extended the lives of these particles by the nature of the velocity they were traveling at. However, now they will have a particle that is not traveling at relativistic speeds, its stationary (due to the fact that it was produced by the head-on collision of two equal protons), except it will still have an enormous time dilation effect that could slow its self destruction. Furthermore; it would not be the ultra massive object that many believe a micro B-H to be. Therefore, inertia would not greatly affect it, allowing it to escape the planet due to the planet’s rotation. It will not be flung into space as it would easily be captured by the Earth’s gravitational field.

For those people saying that the micro-black hole is minuscule and could not devour enough mass to cause any harm, are totally ignorant of what would happen if it remains stable. An established hole of sub-atomic size and mass that has no velocity will gravitate nearly frictionless to the center of the Earth and would probably continue on to nearly the other side of the globe at which point it would again re-fall back constantly sewing its way through the planet as it rotates, all the while continuously gaining mass and growing larger. At one point it would be large enough and would lodge permanently within the core of the planet. Once there it could be only a matter of minutes before the planet totally falls into it. The only thing that might delay this outcome could be the back pressure generated by the hole of several billion megatons of energy radiated by the hole (not all the matter is consumed, as much as 50% is converted to pure energy), but eventually this pressure will explode the remaining outer portion of the Earth (the crust) in a fireball that would be similar in magnitude to a type 1a supernova.

I’m all for Physicists playing god, but I would expect them to do it is a fail-safe environment, like in space far from Earth and myself and my children.

Philip J. Calamatas (Sent Tuesday, June 17, 2008 6:58 PM)

To all those fearless people claiming that science never falters, I would like to sell them a ticket on the either the Titanic (unsinkable) or the Hindenburg (safest way to fly), its your choice. Now its the whole planet they are playing with. Any buyers?

Philip J. Calamatas (Sent Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:47 PM)

I think the real problem is that we haven't thrown enough money into education. The lack of critically thinking "Americuns", brought on by the similar lack of funding for higher education and for the education of our children in basic math for crying out loud. (when is the last time you saw a kid making a multiplication chart with a <GASP> pencil and paper?)
I'm waiting for the Mothership to dock with planet earth and harvest us for dinner. HA HA HA HA

POWER UP LHC AND LETS LEARN SOMETHING!!! Too bad we waste our money on adventures in the Middle East, instead of SCIENCE, TECHNOLOGY, and RESEARCH...
what a concept...

Robert Coon Rapids, MN (Sent Tuesday, June 17, 2008 8:41 PM)

I tend to see both sides of the issue. What the LHC could do is allow us to get a view of how the universe began, have a way to create wormholes to travel vast distances in very little time allowing humanity to colonize and expand on planets with infinite resource capability, and so forth. If the LHC does work and is proven safe by being functional, then it could seriously push science and human advancement extensively forward.

However, I do also see the ones wishing to heed the side of caution. We are trying to directly control a force of the universe, feeling we understand it better than we do in an attempt to advance our understanding, willing to take risks. Many different factors could logically occur. The energy used to collide the particles together to test the Strong Force, could in affect cause a huge energy output, well beyond anything expected and cause Earth to be destroyed, our only known planet of life. We still have only vague understandings as to how Gamma Ray Bursts happen and what all forces affect such a large release of energy. Also by playing with this same Strong Force and immense energy, we could create a black hole that likes to eat and ends up growing up right here on our own planet, consuming its makers. These are just two of the many interesting possibilities. Energy and Mass are interdependant, with common ground being their wave movement, as was shown by mass moving in forms of waves also, even if less noticable, from other studies.

So therefore, we're left with 2 main possibilities, we either grow in science due to it or... it could blow up in our face by either creating a huge amount of energy, mass, or magnetic force that could end up dooming us. Is CERN being arrogant? Yes, especially with one planet. Is there a high likelihood of one of these many doomsday events happening? We won't know till we try it. However, it is paid with taxpayer money and in the end, the taxpayers whom's governments, businesses, and such are funding this project, can at any time begin or end all such projects with the single swift movements of their pens.

Glenn, Yulee, Fl (Sent Tuesday, June 17, 2008 8:42 PM)

John from Huston writes "explain to the 99% of us simple people just what the fuss is all about."

I run LHCFacts.org, I will try to explain what the "fuss" is all about and try to keep it simple.

The Large Hadron Collider is an experiment that will slam tiny particles into each other at very very high speeds, then measure what happens, and scientists hope to learn some of natures secrets from these experiments.

Unfortunately we do not know if this would be safe or dangerous, but some very intelligent scientists are working very hard to make sure that this experiment will be safe before collisions begin, before the experiment is turned on.

A black hole is something that crushes and destroys anything that gets too close to it. It eats everything that gets too close to it.

CERN is the company that built and will run the Large Hadron Collider, and CERN thinks that the Large Hadron Collider might create micro (tiny) black holes. We do not know if micro black holes will be created, but they might be.

Some scientists think that micro black holes would evaporate, just disappear so they would be safe. But other scientists believe that micro black holes might not evaporate and might be dangerous.

Micro black holes would be very tiny, but they would get bigger as they eat other stuff, like the stuff the Earth is made of. Some scientists think that micro black holes would grow so slowly that they would never become large enough to eat all of Earth. But some other scientists believe that micro black holes could grow quickly and become large enough to eat Earth in just 5 or 10 or more years. But we don't know what will really happen.

So CERN asked Dr. Michelangelo Mangano to try to find out if micro black holes would be safe or dangerous.

Dr. Michelangelo Mangano should be done soon, and then the world's scientists will read his safety report and make sure that no mistakes were made, and make sure that the Large Hadron Collider will be safe before any micro black holes are made.

The law suit will try to make sure that the safety report is completed and that the worlds scientists are allowed to read the safety report and make sure no mistakes were made before before collisions begin.

I hope this helps explain the science,
JTankers
LHCFacts.org

James Tankersley Jr (Sent Tuesday, June 17, 2008 9:09 PM)

I love how all these intellectual gurus of space and science set here and put everyone who doesnt have a degree in advanced nuclear physics into a catagory of stupid and ignorant. You people are the ignorant ones. I just finished reading every single post that you supporters have written explaining why we uneducated 9th grade science dropouts dont understand the true meaning of black holes, but the funny thing is that none of you idiots made one statement that matched the other. Some of you stated that the energy would be blasted in a straight line straight out of earths atmosphere, and some of you stated that the black hole wouldnt produce enough inverse energy to consume its own therefore would only destroy itself. It seems to me that you guys are the only ones that are mixed up. Everyone on here that doesnt support the idea of creating a galaxy destroyer all have their facts straight. Black holes eat large things, NO one really knows why black holes occur because we have never witnessed one created, and no one knows at what real size black holes become effective. For all you intellectuals know, everyblack hole in the universe could have been created by what was a civilized world at the point we are in, scientific suicide. Who gives you the right to make a decision for an entire planted. The way I see it your minority of super intelects doesnt even compare to the vast majority of people with enough common sense to know that you dont need to create something that eats worlds...ON A FREAKING WORLD. No matter how large or small.

Nathan C , Little Rock, AR (Sent Tuesday, June 17, 2008 9:28 PM)

Yank the handle.

For the Chill Dren.

Mike Schneider (Sent Tuesday, June 17, 2008 10:00 PM)

People feared that the first atomic bomb test would IGNITE THE ATMOSPHERE and destroy the planet. Sound familiar? What if this accelerator creates a runaway black hole? At worst there would be a lot less trash on the planet! AND at best we would have the most efficient trash can in the universe and not to mention our energy problems would be sucked in as well. It is a risk we as a civilization need to take. What if early humans were to afraid of utilizing fire? We would all be sucking marrow out of the corpses we found laying around. Lets leave the quantum physics to the quantum physicists.

Andy Boo, Philadelphia, Pa (Sent Tuesday, June 17, 2008 10:20 PM)

One can only hope that their FLUX CAPACITORS are sufficient to stand the strain!

Jaycubed (Sent Tuesday, June 17, 2008 10:47 PM)

I'll bet you a billion dollars that we'll still be here the day after they fire it up! - Seriously though, the probability is tiny, but the consequence is GIGANTIC. Also, a micro black hole IS capable of gobbling up matter! Anything that gets within a tiny distance WILL be consumed. The only question is: Will it evaporate more quickly than it falls into contact with matter? Probably, but I don't want to bet our lives on it.

Marty, Carson City, NV (Sent Tuesday, June 17, 2008 10:56 PM)

Humans are inherently stupid (religion and Earth pollution are the best examples)! Actually, religion is a pollution, a social poison. The world would be a much kinder place without them both!

Mark VanGelder, Searcy,AR (Sent Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:42 PM)

RHIC's director ridiculed claims that their collider would possibly produce micro black holes, equating such arguments as bogus science. When evidence was later produced of such occurrences taking place, he rephrased his criticism to say "Of course black holes are being created, but they're so tiny, they just evaporate. We knew that all along!"

To say I'm skeptical when the scientists promoting high dollar projects go from denying something is possible and calling those who raise the concern kooks, to saying it was totally expected all along but it's "nothing to see, move along," is an understatement.

As a risk professional who directs the operational risk program for one of the largest global financial providers, I'm astonished at the reckless risk taking being conducted in our scientific institutions. This is nothing more than people taking shameless risks for the pursuit of professional glory, at the potential expense of humanity (and more). Any risk professional who tolerates the rationalization of "well, it never happened before therefore it can't happen in the future" ought to be locked up in perpetuity.

Redherkey (Sent Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:43 PM)

For some reliable info on CERN and the project explained in laymen's terms, without hysteria, here's an article by Joel Achenbach published in National Geographic in March:
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/03/god-particle/achenbach-text

Marilyn Terrell (Sent Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:51 PM)

"The fact is,this is not going to happen. Particles impact the earth with vastly more energy than this every day. These sorts of colisions are extremely common all over the universe and there is no sign here or anywhere else of any of these sorts of effects happening due to them."

Yeah, there's no sign because the signs all disappeared into the black holes!

Michael Gebert, Chicago IL (Sent Wednesday, June 18, 2008 12:01 AM)

Like Mike, I also fear for the future of the human race. Not because of the LHC, but because of all the leftists who place blind faith in the master and his yoke (be it a politician, dictator, scientist or other authority) to take full responsibility for their lives in a devil's bargain where the fool presumes to trade away risk and uncertainty. They believe by exchanging their freedom for slavery to the master's cause, they might bargain for a little certainty hoping the master won't be as cruel as the uncertain future of autonomy and self-responsibility.

These wierdos, gaia religianazis, global warming quacks, and fear mongers who think they know more than the skeptics and highly educated professionals from other fields who have the capacity to identify fraud when they see it, regardless of whether it's based in science. They get all the normal people complacent in things they know absolutely nothing about, but declare harmless because their master proclaims so.

Unfortunately they sell their neighbors in their slavery bargain. A gamble on a high energy collider that "only has a less than 1% chance of eliminating the earth" is written off as impossible, in typical prospect theory manner. While these fools make for interesting study in behavioral finance, their foolish gambles risk us all. Where does it say a handful of PhDs aspiring for professional greatness have the authority to take the existence of humanity into their own hands?

Today's high energy physicists are no different than Hitler's scientists connecting dog heads to human torsos. For a little fame and curiousity, nothing is off limits.

flyoversam (Sent Wednesday, June 18, 2008 12:26 AM)

WoW....folks...are we really in the 21st century here ? Most of the world (and the sheep on it) sound like they come from the dark ages !! Anyone remember the sound barrier ? How about the world being flat ? Or that dead organic matter actually spawns maggots ? Its not LHC, scientists or anything else I worry about .....frankly...my worries are the REST OF YOU HUMANS. We are such a backwards race...

Chris Gibbs, Myrtle Beach, South Carolina (Sent Wednesday, June 18, 2008 3:09 AM)

I understand that a popular theory about generating small black holes like those postulated is that they would sink right through the earth and keep on going.

Dave F Cape Town SA (Sent Wednesday, June 18, 2008 5:01 AM)

Danger, shmanger!!! All I want to know is, if I put these "particles" in my SUV, will they make it go??? And how much are these particles a gallon? Let's do this thing!

Brando L., Oceano Beach, California (Sent Wednesday, June 18, 2008 6:02 AM)

Professor Fate: "Push the button, Max!"

Pat Patterson, Huntington Beach, CA (Sent Wednesday, June 18, 2008 6:17 AM)

I say we just turn it on and spin it up. What's the worst that can happen; the world plunges into a black hole and we go out in a rampage of global implosion: so what! We won't know the difference.

Ryan Newberry, Colorado Springs, CO (Sent Wednesday, June 18, 2008 8:33 AM)

They say that something like 30% of people in the US understands the scientific method but over 70% believe in psychic powers. This is a sad because the US has thrived economically and socially because of our technical advantage.

People who are not scientists seem to have this impression that scientists are not people. They are! They have lives, families, and they do things outside of science. Why do people think that scientists would harm their own families?

The search for scientific truth would not matter much if we anihilated every person in the world, would it?

JRH South Bend, IN (Sent Wednesday, June 18, 2008 8:45 AM)

It is legitimate to ask the question: Will the experiments I am about to do cause harm to the earth. We accept a great deal on faith in the modern world. For example, one hopes that the discussion of the risks of side effects of conducting particle collisions at CERN have been discussed and understood to be zero. Perhaps the most alarming thing I noticed in the article is that the discussion is not about whether or not CERN poses a risk to the earth, ie the possible annihilation of earth, but centers around the legal basis to bring suit. God help us, if our future is in the hands of the attorneys. At the same time we have to realize that anyone can bring a suit, and one needs to keep proper context.

Steven Vande Lune, Morrison, IL (Sent Wednesday, June 18, 2008 10:08 AM)

John - I'm not a physicist, but here's the general issue as I understand it:

1) LHC is a particle collider - it speeds atoms and other particles up tremendous speeds and then smashes them together.
2) When they collide, two things can happen: a) they are smashed apart into thousands of smaller particles that the scientists can then trace in their billionths of a second lives, or b) all the mass of the two particle can get pushed so close together that it collapses from its own gravity.
3) If b) happens, this is called a mini blackhole. Now, large black holes eat everything in their path. Small black holes pop out of existence in a tiny fraction of a second.
4) The fear is that, if a small black hole sticks around for a little too long, and it wanders into the Earth (they pass through regular matter like it's not there), it could feed on matter and grow into a black hole big enough to eat the Earth.

Obviously, the 'worst case' is bad. It's also unbelievably unlikely. Like one poster pointed out, nature has likely been showering the Earth with mini black holes for billions of years and nothing has happened.

Also, it's not like these physicists are doing this for kicks. These same experiments that may create momentary black holes will also almost certainly enable new technologies as well - medicine, new classes of computers, insight into how the brain works, nano technology. Even black holes themselves could conceivably be of serious use in energy generation and storage, propulsion, micro-industrial fabrication, medicine, communication, and computing - probably all decades or centuries off, but that's all the more reason to learn how to work with them now.

Craig, California (Sent Wednesday, June 18, 2008 10:32 AM)

It is theorized that Black Holes are created in the upper atmosphere every time lightning strikes. Atom sized black holes are popping in and out of existance every millisecond of every day right here on Earth. What's the worst that could happen? We create another dimension? If we die we will just return to the eternal collective unconsious anyway. (((FIRE IT UP))) spiral-out

Salt Lake City, UT (Sent Wednesday, June 18, 2008 11:34 AM)

I recently had a conflict with my local homeowner's association. It convinced me that democracy can sometimes result in really stupid decisions. This thread convinces me even more. Hereditary Monarchy looks better and better every day.

ken, easley SC (Sent Wednesday, June 18, 2008 2:35 PM)

...and an American court has jurisdiction in this matter how?

jdfu!

hugo, Pontiac, Mi (Sent Wednesday, June 18, 2008 4:10 PM)

The world doesn't end that way, anyway.

Clare (Sent Wednesday, June 18, 2008 5:28 PM)

What happend to just letting things be in the natural skem of things, why do some scientist feel the urge to mess up the nautral order of things ? I think its like playing with fire accept if something goes worng it is at the expense of every living thing on the earth that pays. The earth does not belong to us we belong to earth, Its really depressing to think of what kind of world this place has become with quacks like this running around, I worry for the children mostly and our poor mother earth. I really hope there is a god out there somewhere and if there is he is watching over us cause if not we are all screwed. people need to start fighting back and stop giving the control to mindless idiots like this. I am so tired of feeling like i have no say in anything if someone can go play god like that we should be able to stand up and fight back!!!!!

Crystal (Sent Thursday, June 19, 2008 12:00 AM)

do all scientist have god complexes? Get over it!! Your just a monkey like the rest of us according to evolution. So go back to eating your bananas and stop trying to take over the planet .It would do us all a favor you dont see apes trying to create black holes .Can you imagine?? wait a second they do ....oh no we are in trouble!!

Crystal (Sent Thursday, June 19, 2008 12:08 AM)

The reality is the LHC scientist may be careful, thoughtful and prudent. But they cannot judge the risks themselves objectivly. They are so far past the Fail Safe point due to the economic pressures, that they must pay Manna to. The nations and their agendas building the bugger. No one is quite sure what will happen over time, with the many experiments they will conduct.The LHC is many different types of a-bomb tests, metaphorically speaking.Much could happen over time.Cell phones are just now being realized as quite dangerious to the brain.DUH!!!!
The real problem will occur when Q and the Borg show up one thousand years early.We can only hope that Admiral John Luc Picard, Admiral Kirk and Spock are right behind, whipping past the sun at light speed times 10 to 1000th speed. Coming back in time to save us from the Borg,Q and LHC. And kindly take the Bush Regime with them. Depositing them at a Klingon prison.
That works for me.

John Joseph TO, California (Sent Thursday, June 19, 2008 12:25 AM)

Humans! always man against man.

Victor, Seattle (Sent Thursday, June 19, 2008 12:48 AM)

I happen to agree with Mike from Long Island. There were people who filed suit before the first Atomic Bomb explosion claiming that it would start an infinite reaction sucking in all of the earth, and that hasn't happened. Even if a supercollider were to create a few particles of antimatter, they would be neutralized within seconds by all the matter particles around them. Do these fearmongers have any real scientific data to substantiate their fears?

Donald Pelton, Colorado Springs, CO (Sent Thursday, June 19, 2008 2:15 AM)

I have a question for Pundit Joe. Some people drown in deep water. Isn't it better to teach swimming than to keep people away from deep water?

Donald Pelton, Colorado Springs, CO (Sent Thursday, June 19, 2008 2:21 AM)

Keep in mind that microscopic black holes are a mathematical construct and have not been proven to even exist in the physical world.

Andy, La Plata, MD (Sent Thursday, June 19, 2008 10:04 AM)

Yes Ken from Easly, SC, curse people’s petty wish to govern themselves. lol

As for Mark VanGelder, Searcy,AR and his view that "religion is a pollution, a social poison. The world would be a much kinder place without them both!" Mark focuses on only the bad religion has done but none of the good. Sure there are many evils carried out in the name of religion, but it was also used as basis for a decent moral code and laws, inspired many people to oppose slavery, and encourages acts of charity.

Conversely, Mark ignores the bad carried out in secularism. One only need look at the tens of millions killed by communist regimes in just the last century alone to see that secular societies are well skilled at doing bad.

Myself, I’m an agnostic, so I don’t have a dog in this hunt. I just want folks to be fair and honest about such things. Religion has done a lot of good as well as bad, just has secularism, the trick is to promote the good and discourage the bad.

As for the collider - I don’t have enough information to make a judgment. I suspect it will be safe, researchers can't get additional grants if we are all dead, but I want to learn a bit more before I give my blessing.

Even if I'm convinced it is reasonably safe, I may use the event of it going online as an excuse to have a big party with wine, women and song... just in case, of course. ;)

Pundit Joe, NC, USA (Sent Thursday, June 19, 2008 10:46 AM)

From Donald Pelton, Colorado Springs, CO:
"I have a question for Pundit Joe. Some people drown in deep water. Isn't it better to teach swimming than to keep people away from deep water?"

Hi Donald, the point of my first comment was summed up in the line..."So, at this time I would prefer to err on the side of caution until I know more."

I'm not saying we shouldn't do it, I just would like to know more before giving my personal approval to the project. - not that my approval accounts for much anyway. lol So, I am trying to learn more. :)

Pundit Joe, NC, USA (Sent Thursday, June 19, 2008 12:04 PM)

Since the cern collider is functional on paper as ready to go, does anyone know for sure what kind of gateway is there? If so, will scientists contain or close cern if what comes out gets out hand. Maybe scientists should watch episode from bbc's "Doctor who." Remember the bible. what does it gain a man to have world and lose immortal soul..Sincerely, Donald Canaday of Dedham,massachusetts,usa.

donald Canaday,20 bow ave,Dedham,Massachusetts. (Sent Thursday, June 19, 2008 9:04 PM)

TavishHill, Bunker Hill, IL wrote:

These microscopic BH's are simply too small to be capable of devouring nearby matter. BH's are no different than any other form of matter that interacts gravitationally with other matter. If you were on a ship whizzing around a BH outside a certain radius, it'd be absolutely no more dangerous (less so actually due to heat) than if you were orbitting a star or even a planet.

Apart from that fact that you are confusing the issue between stellar holes and Planck size B-H only adds to the general misunderstanding, as for me I think I would rather not get within a light year of any B-H as the gamma and X-ray radiations given off by it would fry anything getting closer.

However your claim that they are too small to chow down is wrong. The physicists claim that micro B-H will self vaporize nearly instantly is based on the fact that these micro holes do feed on the quantum foam which are the virtual particles that makeup space-time. These virtual particles are created constantly as a positive and negative energy pairs that normally self annihilate nearly as soon as they are formed. However, in the presence of a B-H the negative energy particle is expected to be drawn into the hole (because negative energy particles are not allowed to exists in our universe) while the positive particle is expelled thus changing from virtual to real and becoming “Hawking” radiation. The accumulation of these negative particles within the hole is what is expected to destroy the B-H which is comprised of positive energy. Therefore in order for the micro B-H to destroy itself before it grows, it has to consume negative energy therefore even though its very small it does start eating as soon as its born.

Now think of some the things that can go wrong, just to name a few:

1. There may not even be negative energy, its something that quantum physicists believe must exists but there is no solid proof.
2. These negative particles may get stuck on the micro B-H event horizon and never be able to penetrate to the actual core of the singularity where they could do their work.
3. The B-H may also consume both particles thus allowing it to grow without even contacting real matter.
4. At the event horizon time slows down and may even stop, how can a physicists predict the time require for the B-H to disintegrate.
5. What would happen if the singularity is has no polarity? The entering negative energy particles could also lose their polarity thus adding to the mass of the hole.

These are just some of the problems I see that could happen, I’m sure that others can come up with just as many more possible scenarios. The whole point here is that the people that are working on this don’t actually know what will happen so they are taking this exploratory route hoping to get some answers.

Did you know that the two most basic corner stone theories of Physics being Quantum Mechanics and Einstein’s Relativity are totally incompatible with each other? One or both of these two theories has major problems with it. And its these same theories that the particle physicists are using to explain the workings of black holes. I don’t feel very comforted by this fact and I think that most humans should worry as well.

Philip J. Calamatas (Sent Friday, June 20, 2008 9:30 AM)

When we send people into space they undergo psychological testing to see how fit they are for the mission. How many of the scientists have undergone this kind of testing? One psycho could cause a catastrophe just by creating a sub-routine in a program that would cause the experiment to fail. Has anyone sought to answer this question before?

Al Gonzalez, Salt Lake City, UT (Sent Friday, June 20, 2008 6:15 PM)

Phillip Clamatas said,
"Physicists say that a micro B-H should self detonate within a few billionths of a second, however a B-H does not live by our time scale, a few billionths of a second for the hole may be a few hours for us, long enough to annihilate the planet."

The time dialation effect of a black hole is only relative to particles/molecules/thingies that are near the event horizon. To an entity observing a particle being consumed by a MBH it would be nearly instantaneous. The MBH would not see any time dialation effect and would evaporate in a few billionths of a second from the point of view of a particle even a millimeter away from the MBH. A particle that was within a fraction of a nM of the event horizon might see the time dialation effect, But the TDE is only sensed by the doomed particle.

S Shaw, Pottstown PA (Sent Friday, June 20, 2008 11:40 PM)

I’ m afraid that Mr. S Shaw you have it backwards.

Any intimate object being consumed by a black hole will not experience a Time Dilation Effect (TDE), as far as its concerned it will more than likely accelerate towards the singularity where it will be shredded by the intense gravitational tidal effects before it gets there (that’s the predicted outcome for any object going in). However, an outside observer would see the object ever more slowly approach the event horizon (decelerate) all the while it’s image will progressively red-shift the photons leaving it. In fact we could wait until the end of time and never actually see the object enter BH, though we might see it flatten out into a two dimensional representation of the object that will eventually cover the entire surface of the event horizon (Holographic Theory).

All of this boils down to the fact that an object (or particle) going into a BH experiences no TDE but an outside observer does see the TDE on the object.

Now this is expected of stellar holes but dose the same effect also pertain to MBH? If it does then we can also make a statement that the MBH could remain stable while its consuming a particle since just like the stellar BH there will never have enough time to see anything actually pass through the event horizon, and under this condition we could now also make an assumption that the MBH will not vaporize.

Therefore a possible conclusion is that the MBH could have an extreme TDE for those outside of its influence watching it at first eat sub-atomic particles then moving up to matter and finally to the entire planet, at which time we would no-longer be an outside observer but rather an intimate observer watching ourselves accelerate towards the singularity experiencing no TDE and passing through the event horizon as if it were not there.

The only thing that could prevent this would be the consumption of negative energy at a rate superior to the rate of consumption of positive energy. The negative energy would be extracted from the virtual particle pairs that makes up the quantum foam that particle physicists predict pervades all of space-time (all matter is positive energy and negative energy is forbidden to exist in our universe for extended periods of time).

Philip J. Calamatas (Sent Monday, June 23, 2008 8:45 AM)

What, exactly, is a micro black hole? How is a giant gravity well fromed from the collapse of a star ( and, mind you, our sun isn't even a large enough star to even become one ) to be formed from some sub-atomic particles? What, none of you could afford tickets to this year's Star Trek convention?

Anthony (Sent Monday, June 23, 2008 2:59 PM)

Anyone ever read this si-fi book?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrice_Upon_a_Time
Reminds me of this.

Walter Privacy (Sent Tuesday, June 24, 2008 12:43 PM)

Murphy's law is an adage in Western culture that broadly states that if anything can go wrong, it will. "If there's more than one possible outcome of a job or task, and one of those outcomes will result in disaster or an undesirable consequence, then somebody will do it that way." It is most often cited as "Whatever can go wrong, will go wrong" (or, alternately, "Whatever can go wrong will go wrong, and at the worst possible time, in the worst possible way").

its true science has brought us so many good things. so many things, in fact that we take for granted most of them. unfortunately science has also given us so many reasons to fear for our lives, health, and safety. in many states you cant be outside in the life giving sun too long or else that sun will take it away... because of science. in arizona people are being born deformed and cancer prone, the very water they drink delivers the death that kills them... because of science. we live in a world that is on the potential verge of a nuclear war... because of science. now there are many good things that science has brought us, for sure, but so much of todays science is so new that we dont truly have a full grasp of what the end consequences of all our actions are going to be.

whether or not you believe in the existence of God, you have to agree that the earth and our universe is special, and that it was not created by our hands. you also would have to agree that there is so much to that creation that we do not know, and you would also have to agree that no one person or group of people can ever even hope to know all or think of all possible consequences and outcomes of something that happened so many billions of years ago. the Bible does mention that in order to progress in life you must have a strong foundation. with this foundation you can overcome all obstacles.

we have so many problems in our world today that it will take hundreds of years to solve all of them, and yet already we are reaching out to other worlds. its like a child stacking chairs and boxes and books on top of each other in order to get to the cookie jar on top of the fridge, only hes to too young to realize that if he falls he could die. we are that kid and our make-shift tower is wobbling too-and-fro but our eyes are so filled with the thought of those cookies that this fatal wobble is only in the back of our minds. there is so much we dont know, and even what we do know is at best just this side of controlled chaos. if we are ever to explore the greater reaches of our universe we must first get our house in order. now to close, ill leave you with this thought, to paraphrase an earlier comment in this discussion, "when dealing with the primordial forces that created our universe, i would rather err on the side of caution until i know more before proceeding down a path rife with the possibility cataclysm."

Daniel, Las Vegas, NV (Sent Wednesday, June 25, 2008 4:15 PM)

I think we're safe as long as the LHC is off on around 31 Dec 2012. You know, doomsday date and such.
;)

Mark The All Knowing, London, UK (Sent Friday, June 27, 2008 6:27 PM)

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