ABOUT COSMIC LOG

Quantum fluctuations in space, science, exploration and other cosmic fields... served up regularly by MSNBC.com science editor Alan Boyle since 2002.

Alan Boyle covers the physical sciences, anthropology, technological innovation and space science and exploration for MSNBC.com. He is a winner of the AAAS Science Journalism Award, the NASW Science-in-Society Award and other honors; a contributor to "A Field Guide for Science Writers"; and a member of the board of the Council for the Advancement of Science Writing.

Check out Boyle's biography or send a message to Cosmic Log via cosmiclog@msnbc.com.



Doomsday under debate

Posted: Monday, June 16, 2008 6:15 PM by Alan Boyle


CERN
A simulation shows the particle tracks that scientists
think could be given off by the decay of a black hole
in the Large Hadron Collider's ATLAS detector.

The world's largest particle collider is designed to do its job largely under the surface - and that under-the-surface status also applies to much of the progress in the legal case challenging whether the collider should actually be allowed to do its job.

Take today's seven-minute-long conference in Hawaii's U.S. District Court, for example: The meeting set up the schedule for a federal trial, due to begin a year from today, on a suit seeking to hold up operations at Europe's Large Hadron Collider while officials answer claims that the machine could create world-gobbling black holes or other monsters.

Under the surface, both sides are aiming to get what they want long before June 16, 2009.

The suit's plaintiffs, Luis Sancho and Walter Wagner, hope to get the court to agree to their claims at yet another hearing expected to take place this summer. The defendants, representing the U.S. Department of Energy and other federal agencies, hope to get the suit dismissed.

The plaintiffs as well as the defendants telegraphed their plans in documents that were filed leading up to today's scheduling conference. We've already discussed how Sancho and Wagner see it: They say the LHC's operators haven't adequately addressed their claims that the LHC could produce those black holes, or other exotic phenomena known as strangelets or magnetic monopoles. They want to hold Europe's CERN particle-physics center and the U.S. agencies working with CERN responsible for answering the questions to their satisfaction.

In their filings to date, the federal attorneys don't take on the scientific debate, but confine themselves to legal issues. Here are some of the main points:

  • They'll file a motion to dismiss the suit by June 24.
  • One of the grounds for dismissal is that the plaintiffs filed their suit after the statute of limitations had expired, based on the timing of international agreements for U.S. participation.
  • The federal attorneys also contend that the U.S. parties have finished construction of the items they agreed to provide, and that they are not responsible for LHC operations themselves. That would move the ball into Europe's court, so to speak.
  • The attorneys say that the plaintiffs don't have the proper standing for challenging LHC operations, and that the federal government is "immune from suit for alleged violations" relating to European environmental guidelines.
  • They say one of the defendants named in the suit, the Fermilab particle-physics facility, is a "federally owned, contractor-operated laboratory that is not an independent legal entity subject to suit." 
  • Even if the plaintiffs' case isn't dismissed, the federal attorneys claim that the proper way to address the claims is through a review of the administrative record rather than a trial.

While the federal government plans to file a motion to dismiss the suit, the plaintiffs - that is, Sancho and Wagner - plan to file a motion for a preliminary injunction that would put a hold on LHC operations until CERN lets them review an updated safety report. Once they're filed, the two motions could be heard together during a session yet to be scheduled by Judge Helen Gillmor. Here's what Sancho and Wagner have hinted at in their own filings:

  • They say that the U.S. parties will continue to be involved in consulting with the LHC's staff and maintaining the parts they provided. They also say federal agencies have a duty to continue reviewing their involvement. From the plaintiffs' standpoint, that means the court still has jurisdiction in the case.
  • They're planning to seek their preliminary injunction in late July, with an eye toward holding up LHC operations until next year's trial.
  • They want to amend their complaint to seek a jury trial, and to include yet another challenge to research that may involve the creation of microscopic black holes.

Wagner told me the new legal twist relates to years-old reports about the possibility of creating "optical black holes" from ultra-cold atoms of rubidium. This phenomenon, which has been nicknamed the "Bosenova," recently created a stir in some Internet circles.

"I don’t want to be filing something that turns out to be bogus, but if it's something that's out there, and is a viable technique ... then it has to be considered, and it needs to be reviewed by a lot of people," Wagner said.

It's not yet clear whether the court will allow the current lawsuit to be expanded - or, for that matter, whether the lawsuit will go forward or face dismissal. That will have to wait for this summer's court hearing, probably in late July or August.

In the meantime, CERN officials are moving ahead with a report that updates a six-year-old study contending the LHC is scientifically safe. The updated study from the LHC Safety Assessment Group is expected to come before CERN's Scientific Policy Committee and the CERN Council during meetings this week - and if the process goes as planned, that hotly anticipated report should be released to the public soon afterward.

Wagner said he'll believe it when he sees the actual report: "I don't know what they're going to do at that meeting, or whether they're going to release it or not," he said.

MAIN PAGE

Email this EMAIL THIS

Comments

Thanks for the update Alan! :)
Interesting... Is the such a thing as a "small" black hole?  A center that is infinitesimally small, that's what normal black holes are, right?  I'm all for the furthering of technology and understanding our world in the sub-atomic way, but playing with the ultimate of destroyers, a black hole, seems dangerous.  Oh, well, if something goes wrong, we won't know.
The issues and the dangers are real, the lack of study attesting to the safety of micro black holes is astounding.  

The issues are detailed fairly well on the Wikipedia Large Hadron Collider article, Safety section, also on the discussion page.  Quality content also at LHCFacts.org.
Allan

Thank you for being such a good source of valuable concrete information on the situation concerning the LHC safety assessment question.

You wrote:
"In the meantime, CERN officials are moving ahead with a report that updates a six-year-old study contending the LHC is scientifically safe. The updated study from the LHC Safety Assessment Group is expected to come before CERN's Scientific Policy Committee and the CERN Council during meetings this week - and if the process goes as planned, that hotly anticipated report should be released to the public soon afterward."


Given that the LSAG report was commissioned by CERN, and reviewed by the CERN Council Scientific Policy Committee, composed only of physicists, we have the situation where this flagship physics project is reviewed by CERN and physicists. This physicists-only advice is then put to CERN Council for decision. CERN Council represents the 20 governments funding the LHC. The Council therefore itself is not at arms-length from the project, and may itself feel a bias to justify its prior decisions of support.

With this state of affairs, thoughtful people are uneasy because of reference to a basic sense of fairness. This goes right back to the start of civilisation and as such is embodied in the rules of natural justice or procedural fairness. These have traditionally been classified under two branches:

The hearing rule: audi alteram partem – "hear the other side"

The rule against bias (nemo debet esse judex in propria sua cause – "no one to be a judge in their own cause")

It is hoped that the 20 governments involved in this process will each seek and take  independent, neutral, arms-length advice on the recommendation made to them by the their CERN Council representative before approving LHC startup. That is, the independent, neutral, arms-length advice which has been missing in the LHC risk assessment process so far, an absence which  adds up to serious deficiencies in procedural fairness which put the public at risk.
 Behind closed doors! There are discussions going on, by Stephen Hawking, Director General Robert Aymar (CERN), and LSAG Risk Assessment Group (CERN), in regard to the formation of a Quantum Wormhole!  The Quantum Time-Dilation Contraction Calibration Equations are being re-calculated for a 14 TeV Proton collision (scheduled for Sept-Oct 2008). The question is: Will the collision produce an Inverse Energy (Quantum Inversion), from the Quantum Plasma Wave Function, and would this alter Quantum Pathways, thus changing Nuclear Positionings; creating a Time/Space curvature, and establishing a Quantum Wormhole??? Could this in turn, breach the containment area, and affect the superconductor dipole systems/detector array?
" Will the collision produce an Inverse Energy (Quantum Inversion), from the Quantum Plasma Wave Function, and would this alter Quantum Pathways, thus changing Nuclear Positionings; creating a Time/Space curvature, and establishing a Quantum Wormhole??? Could this in turn, breach the containment area, and affect the superconductor dipole systems/detector array?!"

Will the dynamic duo solve this Gotham riddle? Tuuune in next week to see the conclusion!
i personally think that is the stupidest idea ive EVER heard. playing with that kind of stuff is just unnecessary and dangerous.obviously the people trying to make a black hole care more about sciece and much much much less about the safety and well-being of every person on earth.pollution is a huge issue but obviously scientists want to kill us much quicker.i personally want to live a full life but seriously how about focusing more on global warming and the pollution issue then a black hole. becuase a black hole like the one guy commented is an ultimate destroyer like the earth realy needs something to destroy it much sooner.im not going to lie this issue scares me and every person i know.give me one reason why it is a good idea to risk the lives of every person on earth and maybe my opinion will change until then like i said i believe it is a rediculous idea.
There comes a time when science must set aside its hubris and take exceptional precautions to ensure that our existence is assured.  This is one of those times.  Too little is known about it to be firing this particle cannon at exotic particles, considering the sheer power output of this device.

I am not being unreasonable in saying that the people of the world need better assurances that this device is safe.  To fire this thing off under varying, never-before-attempted scenarios without having nigh-conclusive proof that this thing wont destroy us all, is just plain mad.

For the love of Pete! Listen up people! Science is just now coming to the conclusion that cell phones are worse than cigarettes!  This after 30 years of use, by billions of individuals, they finally realized that cell phones are cooking parts of our brains.

And now they want to fire up the largest, most powerful energy pump in the world, and aim it at particles that have the potential to implode and destroy our atmosphere in a matter of minutes.

I hope these scientists are better than the ones who thought it would be a good idea to explode over a thousand nuclear weapons in the American Southwest, killing an untold number of Americans via subsequent nuclear fallout and the resulting cancers.  Ever wonder why the US has some of the highest cancer rates?  Check out the long term fallout map online, then go compare that map to yearly cancer rates nationwide.

Think.  Learn.  Don't be fooled.  Stop being a sheep

The US Government is the largest business on the planet, and the greediest.  It is made up of bureaucrats whose only interest is self preservation, and rarely, if ever, in the interest of the people.  Demand that Government work and stop being such a beast that only exists to perpetuate more government.
It seems like a whole lotta hooplah over something that is not so bad. these "black holes" don't have enough mass to suck anything up, so i have no idea what you are fearing.  However, this energy might tear a hole in spacial fabric... that is just speculation though.
There are no real particles, only waves of high energy that jump from one small peice of the uiverse medium to the next. These energy waves ie (particles) once on a piece of the medium make it easier for another wave of energy to latch on, thus you get gravity. The faster these energy wave move from one piece of the universe medium to the next the more energy cocentrates on that particular piece of the medium ,hince mass seems to increase. Time is the material in between the pieces of the medium. As the wave pass from one piece of the medium to the next it stretches one peice of the medium further from  the next, thus lengthing time ,ie makes it run slower. Oh there you have it gravity is not really real, it is a consequence of the above actions. Back holes develope by the concentration of an intence amount of energy on a small number mediums. It is unlikley that sub atomic particles would be able effect a picece of the universe medium allowing it to attact more and more energy (particles) and grow into a large black hole.
The fact is,this is not going to happen. Particles impact the earth with vastly more energy than this every day. These sorts of colisions are extremely common all over the universe and there is no sign here or anywhere else of any of these sorts of effects happening due to them.

Furthermore,microblack holes are not a danger at all. Blackholes radiate energy. The smaller the black hole the larger the energy. a 20 TeV black hole would evaporate almost instantly. Any small black hole will radiate far more energy than it could possibly consume.
Darn it, Robert, you took the words right out of my mouth!  It could discumbobulate the whatchamacallits forcing the dingledorks to ka-boom until the willywonks tear the jabberwookies apart.

I need to go lie down now... that hurt my brain.
Does anyone really know what time it is?  Or, as Cramer would say, does anyone know what the hell they are talking about here?
Wilson, your complaint about the supposed hint of corruption within the group of physicists whose job it is to decalre the operations safe or not is rather dumb to be blunt.  We are talking about general relativity meeting quantum mechanics here via high energy particle physics.  Who would you like to review the safety hazards if not the type of people who have spent to entire careers undersanding how the science of these fields of study works?  

This whole issue is completely absurd to begin with.  It is wholly based on an ignorance about what black holes actually are.  Black holes are NOT objects that suck everything around them into them to be gobbled up and devoured, only to grow larger and keep feeding like some sort of mythical monster.  A black hole has a limit where its gravitational pull is no longer strong enough to gobble up anything.  The bigger the BH, the more it can gobble up.  

These microscopic BH's are simply too small to be capable of devouring nearby matter.  BH's are no different than any other form of matter that interacts gravitationally with other matter.  If you were on a ship whizzing around a BH outside a certain radius, it'd be absolutely no more dangerous (less so actually due to heat) than if you were orbitting a star or even a planet.  

Not to mention that BH's this small evaporate too quickly to cause any damage anyhow.  

You have to be willing to look into the actual science of what a BH is and what is actually being tested in the LHC before imagining you have some intellectual capacity to criticize it.  
If they blow up the world, hold them accountable.
This reminds me of that one time...back in 1948, I believe, when the incredibly arrogant talking-heads of our government funded the incredibly arrogant pin-heads of science to blow a hole (aint nuclear power grand) in the Van Allen Belt.  Sure, this allowed us to go to the moon...(or did it, haha), but did anyone ever stop to consider what it might have allowed to COME IN?  Cue myriad UFO sitings since.
Listen brainiacs....it's not just YOUR planet.  It belongs to the under 145 IQ set as well, and it's their Van Allen Belt, and their "medium", and their "gravity" too.  You don't just get to "experiment" with EVERYBODY'S universe just because you can.  We all share this sandbox, kiddies, and so please remember the old adage:
If you pee in your pants, you will only stay warm for so long.
Ah but the strangelet argument bears consideration. Anything a strangelet touches adds to its mass. Black holes be damned; the issue is could this sort of Xp blot us all out, and the answer isn't certain. Why on earth would you ok this under those circumstances?
Before the first atomic bomb was detonated there was speculation that the nuclear reaction could not be limited to the fissionable material and would spread until it consumed the earth.  Possible? Yes. Probable? Well, we're still here.

I can recall how people were once fearful of microwave ovens. It was a real concern that they would somehow make the food radioactive. I suppose it didn't help that one of the first consumer models was named the Amana Radar Range.

People always have a kneejerk reaction to new concepts, even when they are beneficial. Irradiation of foods is proven safe and could prevent these salmonella and E. coli scares.

To master science sometimes requires bold experiments and leaps of intuition.  The secrets of nature can not all be unlocked from a chalkboard.

"The fact is, this is not going to happen. Particles impact the earth with vastly more energy than this every day. These sorts of collisions are extremely common all over the universe and there is no sign here or anywhere else of any of these sorts of effects happening due to them.

Furthermore, microblack holes are not a danger at all. Blackholes radiate energy. The smaller the black hole the larger the energy. a 20 TeV black hole would evaporate almost instantly. Any small black hole will radiate far more energy than it could possibly consume."

Those are some of the previous arguments of the CERN. On the wikipedia LHC talk page you can see the counterarguments.
These counterarguments are:
The cosmic ray high energy particles have a speed close to the speed of light. Any products of the collision with a static earth particle/atom will have a speed still very close to the speed of the cosmic particle. In case of a micro black hole (MBH), its even horizon will be infinitesimally small, with a very small gravity field according to its mass and combined with the high speed it is obvious that this MBH will pass thru earth like a neutrino.
In the case of the LHC, millions of MBH could be created at a speed close to zero, so these MBHs will be captured by earth, and then they will be able to capture more particles,  grow exponentially and combine.
If the MBH radiate, then we do need to worry. The problem is that there are some doubts about it, see wikipedia LHC talk page.
These micro black holes that could possibly be created would emit so much Hawking radiation that they would disappear in less than 10^-42 seconds. Furthermore, as  Michael Kent said, particle collisions of much higher energy occur all the time in the earth's atmosphere due to high energy emissions from outer space. Its just a matter of being able to study them under a controlled environment. In reality, there is no cause for worry; there is only the bogus fear-mongering hogwash that these two idiots have thought up.

Even if the plaintiffs win their case, no U.S. court has jurisdiction over the LHC. Essentially the plaintiffs are wasting their time.
Recall: Physicists that claim to the safety of this experiment are basing everything on the fact that they believe that sub-atomic size black holes will vaporize and self-destruct nearly as fast as they are created, and all this comes from a Stephen Hawkings theory that has already been shown to be somewhat inaccurate in certain areas. How do they know what will really occur?

As for those individuals that believe that their death will be instantaneous and painless, well, think again, as the Earth shrinks there will be devastating earthquakes followed by the oceans overflowing their basins drowning any individuals that survived the earthquakes, this could last from minutes to months nobody really knows for sure. Following this the atmosphere will experience a tremendous pressure increase that would result in the combustion all the terrestrial oxygen with any remain matter (this phenomenon is known from submarines that imploded when crushed at great depths). Due to the law of conservation of angular momentum, the final stages would exhibit unbelievable amounts of Gamma and X-rays, don’t forget black holes don’t consume 100% of the matter falling into it, a large portion is converted to pure energy (perhaps as much as 50%) and is ejected as either radiation or in the form of particle jets emanating from the poles). To an observer looking at the Solar System from a distance, it would seem as if there was a strange type 1a supernova explosion where no white dwarf was known to exist. Nothing in the Solar System would indicate that there was anything intelligent in this area of the galaxy, and maybe there never was any intelligence here.

I wonder: is it possible that this may be the reason why SETI cannot find any intelligent life in the universe? It may be because these exo-cultures all went through the same phase of experimentations’ that we are now attempting that resulted in the total destruction and erasure of their home planet along with all evidence of their existence.

Have a nice day 

It appears to the educated mind that SHOULD a black hole form, its intense mass would make it continue in a straight line. As it would be travelling with Earth's rotation at the moment of its creation, where the Earth's surface is in a continual curved rotational path around the planet's center, the B.H.'s mass would dictate that it would continue in a straight line.  The comparatively wispy planet's surface would have no more pull on it than an airball would have on us in space. The black hole would appear to us (if we could actually see it as more than a point of darkness) to instantly take a quick path straight up, away from our surface.  At worst, it might suck up some material in and around its path as it moves straight away from us, leaving (probably at most) a basketball-sized hole up through the "roof" of the collider.  This would happen so quickly that it would appear to be fired up through the roof, without sucking up anything else around it (other than some nearby egocentric physicist who expects everyone to suck up to him).  So if you have a detestable relative, ask them to a celebratory party to be held just above the anticipated collision point at the appointed time, and you may be relieved of their unnecessary burden as well.
To Michael Kent

Recall: that a relativistic particle (cosmic ray particle) that impacts a stationary particle (an air molecule) decelerates slowly imparting a large amount of its energy to the molecule causing the destruction of both into sub-atomic particles (think of a cue ball hitting the other balls causing them to disperse). However, when CERN becomes active they will impact two relativistic particles that were traveling in opposite directions and colliding together, coming to a complete halt with all of the energy compressed into one sub-atomic area with little or no loss of that energy. The resultant particle of matter would now be almost stationary. The mass of this particle could be of such intensity that it could rip a hole into the (expected by string theory) other hidden dimensions of our universe. WOW!!

Physicists expect that this micro black hole would dissipate (explode) almost as soon as it was formed with the more massive of these particles taking somewhat longer than the less massive (reference Steven Hawkins theory). However, what would happen if it took a few seconds before it disintegrated instead of the predicted Pico-seconds (recall: black holes have a profound affect on the passage of time), and had a source of heavy matter nearby to start consuming? As it munches it delays its expected disintegration starting a positive feedback cycle where the more it eats the more it delays its self destruction. Now wouldn’t these physicists look stupid, telling the world’s population they pulled a Homer!!

Turn the switch on.
I for one am for the LHC. The blackholes they are going to create are so microscopic that its not going to have the gravatational pull to do the earth any harm. The only concern i have is what to do with it after its created. Will it disperse quickly like they said it will or will it have to be put in a 55 gallon drum and store with all the nuclear waste that we have already created with the nuclear plants ?
There was a time when it was said that the first time we split an atom it would start a chain reaction that would annihilate the planet. We all know how that turned out.
What blows me away is how every time something groundbreaking is about to happen in science that could explain why we are here and how we came to be, fear and ignorance take over. This is the kind of thing that holds back progress. Remember when someone suggested the Earth was not the center of the universe. Black holes are created by something at least 3 times the mass of our sun exploding! Do you really think this kind of energy could be created by a collider that is powered here on Earth that slams quantum particles together? Honestly? Creating something that powerful from a small Earth power plant. I bet scientists wish they could pull off something like that. People watch to many movies. Lastly, in case people didn’t know, CERN has been colliding particles for a long time now and we are still here.
why not test it out in space a cupple thousand miles from earth would be nice
Playing God! - 'The World is not Enough'
Nobel Prize hungry Physicists are racing each other and stopping at nothing to try to find the supposed 'Higgs Boson'(aka 'God') Particle, among others, and are risking nothing less than the annihilation of the Earth and all Life in endless experiments to try to solve theoretical problems when urgent real problems face the planet. The European Organization for Nuclear Research(CERN) new Large Hadron Collider(LHC) is the world's most powerful atom smasher that will soon be firing subatomic particles at each other at nearly the speed of light to create Miniature Big Bangs producing clouds of Micro Black Holes, Strangelets and other potentially cataclysmic phenomena.
The CERN-LHC website Mainpage itself states quote: "There are many theories as to what will result from these collisions,..." This stunning admission is because they truly don't know what's going to happen. They are experimenting with forces they don't understand to obtain results they can't comprehend. If you think like most people do that 'They must know what they're doing.' you could not be more wrong. The second part of the quote reads "...but what's for sure is that a brave new world of physics will emerge from the new accelerator,..." A molecularly changed or Black Hole consumed Lifeless World? The end of the quote reads "as knowledge in particle physics goes on to describe the workings of the Universe." These experiments to date have so far produced infinitely more questions than answers but there isn't a particle experimentalist physicist alive who wouldn't gladly trade his life to glimpse the "God particle", and sacrifice the rest of us with him.
This quote from Nation Geographic exactly sums this "science" up: "That's the essence of experimental particle physics: You smash stuff together and see what other stuff comes out."
For more information visit;
http://www.lhcdefense.org/
http://www.lhcconcerns.com
http://www.SaneScience.org/
http://www.LHCFacts.org
Popular Mechanics - "World's Biggest Science Project Aims to Unlock 'God Particle'" - http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/extreme_machines/4216588.html"

The issue here is the uneducated against the educated.  The uneducated hear "Blackhole!!!!" and freak out.  We have 20 countries and hundreds of the worlds most educated people making the decisions.  Let's try to remember that scientists by nature are some of the most cautious pepole on the planet.  They come up with an idea, test it, check it with another test, then check that test, then have others check to prove there results.  All while maintaining the mindset that there intial test was actually wrong or flawed some how, trying to find error in there intial results.  They have done as much of the work, calculations, and theorization that they can, and now it is time to put some of those theories to the test.  Hell, we let Bush barge into Iraq with just sketchy intelligence, which turned out to be a lie, no, an "exaggeration of the facts".  This country has no problem letting an oil cowboy play war games with our sons' and daughters' lives.  But now we have a problem with scientists expanding our knowledge of the universe.  All because these individuals don't have the understanding of how a cautious, scientifically minded individual thinks.  Just sleep well knowing that it is scientists making the decisions in this case, and not politicians.
And even if they did suck in matter, micro black holes are so small that the amount of matter they can absorb is as minute as they are.

Back before the first tests of the atomic bomb, some very creditable physicists feared the explosion would "ignite the atmosphere" and destroy the earth.

That didn't happen, and neither will this.
These must be the same people that destroyed the nuclear power program with their doomsday predications while the rest of the world developed there programs and left us sucking up all oil reserves. Believe me when I say to all the chicken littles out there, the sky is not falling. Joe
Maybe, these guys are trying to build some way to travel through time, using a black hole as a portal but they'll need another black hole on the other end to return.  It's going to be a big mess any way you look at it, even, if it's the size of a pinpoint.  Making a vaccum like that, isn't just irresponsible, it goes completely against science and humanity.
It is so nice to have public debate on black holes. Bravo America - we finally identified "real" problem.
The recreation of the instant our Solar System was Born is not something to be played with. The Lord bound the one we call the Devil, and these IDIOTS are going to recreate the instant of his Birth. We were warned that HE would be released again. I guess it is about that time. At least they will be there first to see their ticket to Hell.
Maybe they'll solve Global Warming?!?  Oh the horror!  Which is it gonna be?  Oh the humanity!  Sheesh.
I'm reminded of the eighteenth-century farmers who, upon seeing the Montgolfier brothers' balloon descending toward their field, thought it was some kind of a monster and attacked it with pitchforks.  

Think about all the things that we have, that we take for granted in life, that make us able to live the lives we live, then consider that if our current litigation industry had existed when they were invented we'd all still be living in caves begging the government for our daily fifteen minutes of secure fire.
The Luddites who support this lawsuit remind me of those who warned that traveling 15 mph on a train would make the blood boil. To then quote wikipedia as if it's a controlled source rather than a hubbub of reader contributions only adds to the amusement. This lawsuit is a joke and those who support it are afraid of the dark. Far more dangerous events are occurring every day in the biological weapons labs of third world countries.
Unbelievable.  Reading the vast majority of the comments above makes me fear for the future (and the present!) of science education in this country.  You people are ignorant.  I didn't say "stupid", I said "ignorant".  Meaning uneducated.  You are spouting meaningless garbage about a topic you obviously know nothing about.  

Do yourselves a favor.  Stay in high school long enough to pass some basic science classes.  The world will look much better afterward.
The lack of scientific and technical knowledge and perspective in the doomsday pronouncements is astounding. Consider that cosmic rays routinely shower the Earth and every other planet and body in our Solar System with particles at speeds which create sub-atomic collisions with energies many many orders of magnitude greater than anything we will be able to achieve with the LHC. Now consider that the number and variety of such sub-atomic cosmic ray collisions occurring over the many billion year lifetime of the Solar System would be astronomical. Any conditions we could create in the LHC have certainly been created in our own Solar System many, many times before (likely millions or billions of times, easily) in its history. Also consider that the mass and size of the outer planets, especially Jupiter and Saturn, greatly increase the likelihood of gravitationally capturing micro-blackholes, for example (by significant factors). And yet the evidence shows quite plainly that no planets in our Solar System have been converted into black holes. No planets in our Solar System have been converted into negative charged strange quarklets.

The ONLY rational conclusion from these blatant facts is that the likelihood of the conditions created by the LHC to cause some doomsday scenario are exceptionally tiny even were it to be operated over a 4.5 billion year time frame.
Robert,

To answer your question:

It depends.

:)
Earth is not meant to be desecrated by govt and mad scientists.  Is there any real need to figure out what will happen when we chase these insane ideas?  Whose suffering will stop, what child's happiness will be revived?  The men involved in this experiment should be forced to go on dates with beautiful women:) and forget about thier selfish quest for knowledge.
Hmm, this is a difficult one.  From what I have heard, and I may be wrong, the folks building this thing say it is possible something terrible could happen, but the chances are extremely small.  Still, even with an extremely low probability of a catastrophic occurrence, the consequences of something going wrong are total - game over. So, at this time I would prefer to err on the side of caution until I know more.

I would hate to lose the Earth - that's where I keep all my stuff!
I do not have a college degree but I feel that I have matriculated well from the unwritten book of life. Common sense and a simple way to express oneself in an understandable form seems to be lost. Just what is a simple man to think about all these comments which seem to talk in circles about whatever it is that is in that circle. I wish someone more knowledgeable than myself could write just a paragragh or two to explain to the 99% of us simple people just what the fuss is all about. Plesae start with #1 and then proceed. I am a veteran of Vietnam and would appreciate being heard. Please do not leave the rest of us who are not that well educated..behind.
Look folks, please rest easy.  I can tell you with perfect confidence that the LHC does not end the world.  In fact, data collected from experiments performed there in 2017 were used to develop a theory of time travel that finally bore fruit in 2091.

Turns out that the whole Hitler thing... well THAT is what the LHC actually resulted in.  The original leader of the NSDAP that Hitler replaced in your time stream developed nuclear weapons before the US... it was a near genocidal period of human history.  Hitler is actually the lesser of two evils.

Oh... that whole "New Coke" thing... yeah the LHC was responsible for that too
Well on the brigth side. I'd like to think this may lead us to the ability to fold space soto speak and travel beyond the light barrier. Sad note is if it does I won't live long enough to enjoy the product or be a part of the exploration of other worlds. EH!
Sincerly
Still this side of the great dirt nap.
The net import of all this reveals just how ignorant people are when it comes to science in general.
Need I cite another example of stupidity in action?  Look at the Extreme Green Environmentalists.  And consider what they are trying to sell the suckers.
If you're ignorant, all modern science seems to be a type of Magic.  And the plaintiffs, the witchcraft trials are just around the corner...and they want to be the judges.
Dolts and Morons, all of them.

Are you guys nuts?  Some of the leading nuclear physicists in the world are working on this project.  Do you think that they want their legacy to be catastrophic destruction on the earth?  What makes Wagner and Sancho think they have a better handle on quantum mechanics than the people working on the project?  If they really thought there was the slightest chance they would be making black holes that would devastate the earth they would rethink their involvement.
oof.  Im just glad  Wagner and the other goof have to represent them selves so they can for all time be the doom sayers of the past that impeded the worlds growth.    they sould get on the Global warming band wagon hehehehe and help ol Gore prove the planet has nothing to do with out climat its all the humans fault lol
I fear for the future of the human race.  Not because of the LHC, but because of all the sci-fi wierdos, religianazis, quacks, and fear mongers who think they know more than the experts and scientists.  They get all the normal people up in arms about things that are completely harmless.  This only serves to undermine confidence in good science and to slow progress.

These people will stop at nothing in order to stop everything.

Witness: The Arrogance of Ignorance.


SEND A COMMENT

PLEASE READ: All comments must be approved before appearing in the thread; time and space constraints prevent all comments from appearing. We will only approve comments that are directly related to the blog, use appropriate language and are not attacking the comments of others.

Message (please, no HTML tags. Web addresses will be hyperlinked):

TRACKBACKS

Trackbacks are links to weblogs that reference this post. Like comments, trackbacks do not appear until approved by us. The trackback URL for this post is: http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/trackback.aspx?PostID=1146317

Latest Tech & Science News

Syndicate This Site

Add Cosmic Log to your news reader:
live.com xml
myyahoo msn
bloglines newsgator
google