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Quantum fluctuations in space, science, exploration and other cosmic fields... served up regularly by MSNBC.com science editor Alan Boyle since 2002.

Alan Boyle covers the physical sciences, anthropology, technological innovation and space science and exploration for MSNBC.com. He is a winner of the AAAS Science Journalism Award, the NASW Science-in-Society Award and other honors; a contributor to "A Field Guide for Science Writers"; and a member of the board of the Council for the Advancement of Science Writing.

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No peace over Pluto

Posted: Friday, June 13, 2008 7:12 PM by Alan Boyle


NASA / JHUAPL / SwRI
An artist's conception
shows NASA's New
Horizons probe during its
2015 encounter with Pluto.

The latest round in the planethood debate may well provoke planetary scientists into a revolt against the international body that usually has the last word on astronomical terminology, according to the top scientist for NASA’s mission to Pluto.

This week's announcement from the International Astronomical Union that Pluto and other dwarf planets on the solar system's edge would be known henceforth as "plutoids" has been seen by some as a sign of respect for what was once considered the smallest of the solar system's nine planets.

That's not how Alan Stern, principal investigator for NASA's New Horizons mission to Pluto, sees it. In fact, he wonders whether this will be the last straw for those who think IAU officials badly bungled their definition of a planet almost two years ago.

"They're almost needling the planetary community to go their own way," Stern told me today.

Stern isn't alone - and in fact, there's a wide range of opinions on the planethood question, ranging from outrage to acceptance of the IAU's definition. The main point of contention is the idea that a planet must have "cleared the neighborhood around its orbit" - a definition that Stern maintains could exclude worlds exactly like Earth.

In today's telephone interview, the former NASA associate administrator discussed Pluto, planethood and what planetary scientists might do about those questions. Here's an edited transcript of the Q&A:

Cosmic Log: Let's start with the plutoids: Some people have said that this is at last an opportunity for Pluto to get some respect. Does this end the controversy?

Stern: No, because the controversy isn't about names. The issue is a crucial one to planetary scientists: whether we understand which objects are planets, or not. It's not about respect. It's not about Pluto.


NASA
Alan Stern is principal
investigator for the New
Horizons mission to Pluto
and the Kuiper Belt.

There is no equivalent issue in the rest of astronomy. Imagine if stellar astronomers couldn't agree as to what is a star, or galactic astronomers couldn't agree as to what is a galaxy. What if geologists or biologists couldn't make the simplest classifications, like animals vs. plants? It would be unacceptable. As a result of the 2006 IAU meeting, right now we have an unworkable, embarrassing and wrong definition of what a planet is.

It's very easy to demonstrate that. Any definition of a planet would be laughed out of the house unless Earth is a planet. Anytime you take a picture of an object, and the picture is of Earth, that has to be a planet. We live on a planet.

In fact, the IAU definition doesn't come close to allowing Earth to be a planet.

Q: Because Earth hasn't cleared the near-Earth objects out of its orbit?

A: Well, there's a technicality that they didn't write it well. You're right, because of the near-Earth objects, the earth is technically disqualified. But even if you could forgive that ... and clear up the language, the issue is that as you go farther and farther away from the sun, the equations that describe the mass required to "clear a zone" show that the objects have to get more and more massive.

So Mercury qualifies in Mercury's orbit, but Mercury would not qualify in Earth's orbit. Earth might qualify in its current orbit, but if we put the earth where Pluto is - in other words, if Pluto were the mass of the earth - it still wouldn't qualify. In fact, in the Oort Cloud, which is part of our solar system, none of the planets, even Jupiter, would qualify. Which is a really ridiculous way of defining things. It depends on where it is, not what it is.

Q: It's a case of defining a planet not by the thing itself, but by everything that's around it?

A: Exactly. I would like to see a definition that's really simple. I like to use the "Star Trek" Enterprise test. The Starship Enterprise shows up at a given body, they turn on the cameras on the bridge and they see it. Captain Kirk and Spock could look at it and they could say, "That's a star, that's a planet, that's a comet." They could tell the difference. They don't need a Ph.D.

In the case of the IAU, when Kirk asks, "Is it a planet?" Spock would have to say, "I don't know, Captain. We have to make a complete census of the solar system, feed that into a computer, and do numerical integrations to determine which objects have cleared their zone."

Q: So the issue of the nomenclature, whether it's a dwarf planet, or a plutino or a plutoid - as far as you're concerned, that's not the real point.

A: It's really about us "planetary scientists" having a basic understanding of the object after which our field is named. The reason we're having this discussion is because for a long time, we only knew of a few planets, and life was simple. Then, in the 1990s, there was this explosion in the variety of new kinds of bodies orbiting other stars and out in the solar system, because our technology got more sophisticated. We could suddenly see what we couldn't see before.

It's as if we were biologists trapped on a single desert island, and the only kinds of plants and animals that we knew were on that desert island. And then we were taken on a world tour of the flora and fauna of the earth. It would blow our minds. You would have two choices: You could say, 'Anything I didn't recognize from my own island is not living. I'm not counting that, because there would be too many varieties and I can't keep up with them.' Or you could say, 'I'm a scientist, and I have to adapt to new data. Wow, I really underestimated the situation.'

I think that's what's happened. But the IAU's reaction is, 'No, stop, I won't have any more planets. We have to limit the number because I'm more comfortable with a small number.' So you get this arbitrary algorithm that produces ridiculous results.

Q: Some of the discussion has focused on whether the approach to having an IAU that is the arbiter is not the right way to go nowadays. There's even talk about setting up an alternate organization.

A: That's right. Most things are done these days open-source and by consensus. You don't find little committees of 10 people speaking for 10,000, all without some sort of a sanity check. The fact that the IAU would claim that the world's astronomers have somehow met and decided something when it was a small committee of a dozen ... where were the experts in this field? What kind of process is that?

So people are asking, "What do we need these guys for? We'll set up an alternative." The IAU has no special claim. They have no police force or army. They're not the Supreme Court. If they're doing a bad job ...

The fundamental issue is that not many planetary scientists even belong to the IAU. The vast majority of its members work on galaxies, and stars, and black holes and cosmology. The reason most of the IAU doesn't care is because it's not their issue. The people who actually understand the physics, the chemistry, the work on planets aren't in the IAU. It's kind of like having a bunch of French professors deciding issues regarding the German language.

Q: You're going to have a fair number of "German-language" experts, so to speak, gathering in August to discuss the planet controversy. Will this issue come up there?

A: It will certainly come up. It's going to be a lot of fun, because it's going to be a scientific discussion. I don't think any conclusions will be reached, but it's going to move the ball along. That's just how science works. We don't actually come to vote. Except for the IAU, I don't know of anyplace where we vote at the end of a scientific meeting.

Q: Would that meeting be a good model for the kind of process you're talking about?

A: It's a step. It's like a lot of things. We figured out that water was once prevalent on Mars, not by getting together and arbitrarily calling committees to vote on it, but because over time the body of evidence became overwhelming.

Astronomers, and particularly planetary scientists, have to grapple with the much greater degree of diversity. And it's not just the diversity. The original view, until 10 or 15 years ago, was that we had four Earthlike terrestrial planets, four gas giants and the misfit Pluto. But the new view is four terrestrial planets, four gas giants and hundreds of Plutos. It's jarring, because it's the Earthlike planets - which we thought were 40 percent of the total - that are the misfits.

It's like the Copernican revolution: We're displaced from the center of things. A lot of people didn't want to buy it for a long time. We had to get used to that. The church opposed it. Now the IAU opposes this.

The only difference is that the smaller objects are smaller. They're not fundamentally different, in the sense that a chihuahua is still a dog. A dwarf human being has all the same genetics as other humans. From my perspective, that's fine: These are dwarf planets. I coined the term, in 1991. The only contention that planetary scientists have is with excluding dwarf planets from planets, as if dwarf people weren't people, or dwarf stars weren't stars. In fact, the sun is a dwarf star. It's just an adjective describing what kind.

Q: So you think there eventually will be a consensus, which emerges not by taking a vote but by gathering more evidence?

A: I do. Let me give you an example: I think it's now widely expected among experts that we will find objects substantially larger than Pluto in the deep outer solar system, because now we really understand how easy planet formation was and how many kinds of things were thrown into the outer regions by the giant planets.

So just watch: When a Mars-size body of an Earth-sized body is found, it will be widely accepted that there will be a planet that doesn't fit the IAU's definition. At that point, even the last vestiges of the definition's defenders will say, "Wait a minute, we have to rethink this." ... The whole thing will be shown for the farce that it is.

Q: I wanted to make sure to get a progress report for the New Horizons mission. Is there anything new that can be said about that, or is it under deep cover until it gets closer to the next milestone?

A: Well, it's our job to be good stewards of this spacecraft across this long cruise. We just passed Saturn's orbit, and that means there are now only two operating spacecraft that are farther out, and those are the two Voyagers that were launched 30 years ago.

The spacecraft is very healthy. In fact, our team is writing all the software for the Pluto encounter [in 2015].  So we're very busy, and not really in the deep slumber you're thinking of.

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Comments

  Omega, that doesn't work. As pointed out by many here, asteroids and comets are in orbit about the sun.
  Stern said, "What if geologists or biologists couldn't make the simplest classifications, like animals vs. plants? It would be unacceptable."
  Well, viruses have defied pigeon-holing for a very long time.
  And paleontology has archaeopteryx - bird-like dino, or dino-like bird?
  THIS is what makes science exciting and worth doing.
  By the way, I like the idea from Raleigh's Len: planetary classifications.
Plutoid!?!? Even my spell checker doesn't like it.
Oh for crying out loud.  The term "planet" has no scientific meaning - it's from a word the Greeks used to described "stars" that "wandered" apart from the others.  Public relations is the only reason the IAU is even keeping the word.  

Yes, there are bodies orbiting stars that are not themselves stars or brown dwarves, are in hydrostatic equilibrium, and overwhelmingly dominate the mass of their orbital region, but that describes such a vast range of objects that it has no meaning as a category.  Mass, temperature, and density all play strong roles in determining a body's characteristics, and the temperature variable is itself dependent on the particulars of the body's star, average orbital radius, and the eccentricity of that orbit.

Sometimes science is too conservative and tradition-bound for its own good.  Just dump the term "planet" and come up with meaningful categories to describe these bodies so that we have an accurate, multidimensional continuum with significant delineations.  Mercury has *nothing* of significance in common with Jupiter, let alone some of the monsters discovered around other stars, yet they are classed arbitrarily together simply because of the way the ancients saw them in the sky.  How ridiculous.

In fact, none of the criteria currently proposed for planethood is meaningful.  Why is Titan - the most Earth-like world known to exist - classed apart from Earth while Saturn - an object having virtually nothing in common with Earth - is not?  Is it truly meaningful that Titan's primary orbit is around Saturn?  If there were two Titans revolving around each other instead of one around a much larger body, would neither apply?  What about if two bodies were of equal size, but one was vastly more massive?  Which one is the "moon," and which the "planet"?

A modest proposal from a not-quite-layman:  The following categories would be ample, though of course the actual names could be arbitrary, and each could be followed by numbers and letters describing various variables:  Airless rocks I (odd); airless rocks II (regular, hydrostatic equilibrium); aired rocks; and gas bodies.  The boundary between airless rocks II and aired rocks might seem arbitrary, since every significant body has a little bit of vapor floating around, but it could be said that an "atmosphere" is a *persistent* gas envelope (i.e., not a transient result of outgassing) sufficient to alter the solid surface in obvious ways.  The boundary between aired bodies and gas bodies would be the absence of a solid crust - i.e., direct transition from atmosphere to fluid mantle.  The upper limit of a gas body would be when fusion becomes a persistent process with significant effect on temperature.

Now doesn't this make more sense than calling everything from Mercury to TrES-4 a "planet"?
Pluto is and has always been the furthest PLANET from the sun and those ding-bat scientist-wanna-bes that argue that it's not a planet are orbiting on a back road to trouble.
Nobody should have the right to slap new labels on old orbiting spheres such as Pluto.
Next thing they'll do is hit Walt Disney's Pluto and claim he's not a dog because he's yellow.
PLU-SHAW!
I will always consider Pluto our galaxy's ninth planet as well as considering those renegade scientists failures in how they conduct business.
PEACE - OUT!
If the Earth was in orbit around a gas giant, why could it not be both a planet and a moon? Planet just means Wanderer. I come down on the side of the geologists on this one. Look at what it is, not where it is, or what orbit it's in, or if it has cleared it's orbit... a duck is a duck, in a barn yard, in a school bus, or in a pig pen surrounded by pigs. It's still a duck. Now you have baby ducks, giant ducks, different species of ducks, and roast duck for dinner. Still duck, but with lots of variety. This would also be able to be easily extended to other solar systems (I hate the term exoplanet) as well as planets in no orbit at all.
i just wanted to know why isnt pluto a planet anymore?
I would say that if it has enough gravity to have smaller bodies orbiting around it, then it could be considered a planet.  I would have had a historical exception for Pluto.  
At a time when we are discovering there is far more diversity to the universe than anyone dreamed of, we should be broadening, not narrowing, concepts such as "planet" to encompass the new data. Why not keep
"planet" as a broad category for objects with enough gravity to pull themselves into a round shape (hydrostatic equilibrium) and then divide those objects into multiple subcategories such as terrestrial  planets, gas giants, ice giants and dwarf planets. The latter could be used to refer to objects that don't dominate their orbits yet are still planets.  That way the dynamical considerations are still taken into account but they don't negate the equally important geophysical characteristics of these objects.

The reality is, the round moons of the planets, including Earth's moon, are geophysically very similar to the planets.  Some have proposed labeling them as "secondary planets," meaning they orbit other planets instead of stars. To avoid confusion, we could simply continue to use the terms satellite or moon colloquially with the understanding that these terms refer to secondary planets.

Pluto, Eris, and other round KBOs are significantly different from the vast majority of tiny, shapeless Kuiper Belt Objects. Adding these and Ceres to the broad list of planets (or, more specifically, primary planets) might lead to as many as 200 planets in our solar system but not thousands. It's amazing to hear arguments that "we cannot have too many planets in the solar system" because children will have a hard time learning them.  We don't limit the number of elements in the periodic table to make memorization easy.  In any case, memorization is less important than a general understanding.  It is far more productive for children to learn the characteristics of the many subtypes of planets than simply to memorize names.

What has too often been learned as a result of the IAU decision is an authoritarian view that "Pluto is not a planet anymore because my teacher says so" or because the IAU says so.  Here is where Stern's points are especially crucial. The process by which we arrive at these definitions is just as important as the outcomes.  A tiny portion of the IAU is trying to dictate by fiat what is essentially an interpretation, not a fact. That is highly problematic.

What is wrong with keeping the debate open until more data is available, especially since New Horizons and Dawn will give us this data in 2015?  What is wrong with teaching that there are two or more schools of thought and having children and students do their own research and their own thinking so they can come to their own conclusions?  This far more democratic approach is what the August conference will feature and hopefully will become a model for teaching this issue at all levels.
Round, larger than rocks, orbits a star = planet

Orbits a planet = moon

pluto = planet

stuff that goes around jupiter = moons

please send all the money I saved to me now thanks.

Using an unbiased factor that I call the “Taos” index, we achieve the following index factors for the bodies in our solar system.

Planet  Taos index
Pluto 7.28E-14
Moon 6.97E-13
Mercury 6.84E-09
Titan 3.97E-08
Mars 2.29E-05
Earth 1.00
Venus 1.43E+03
Uranus 6.21E+04
Neptune 1.09E+06
Saturn 2.90E+08
Jupiter 6.78E+09
Brown Dwarf 7.73E+12
Sun 2.69E+30


I used Earth an orientation reference and I included Titan and the Sun for external references. Anything with a Taos index above 1.0e+12 is a star and anything with a Taos index below 1.0e-8 should be classified as a “dwarf planet”. Even though Titan has a Taos index in the planetary range it doesn’t orbit a star it orbits a planet. So it would not count. If you look closely Mercury has a Taos index below the planetary qualifications so the debate shouldn’t be why Pluto is or isn’t a ”planet”, the data clearly shows it doesn’t classify, but we should really be looking at why Mercury is still considered a planet.
If stars are similar in make up and I think they all are similar, then they should be called "Stars".  That name is as good as any.
We should call everything rotating around a star -"Objects".  Earthlings have named the "objects" that orbit our "RA", Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, etc., from an age when people thought these objects were Gods looking down on us or named them after their Gods.  
When we found the three "Objects" around HD 40307 we called them planets, but as of now, they are still "Objects" subjected to study, orbiting a star we named HD40307.  

Reading from an earlier article by Alan, there is somewhat of a rule as to where these objects sit in the scheme of a solar system.  

An object that rotates too close to its companion star and can not keep its atmosphere due to evaporation can be classified as "Solid Hot Objects" (SHO), those that orbit further out that have a slight gravatational advantage over the sun and can keep their atmosphere can be called an "Earthlike object" (EO), (We should have some leeway).
Those that revolve around in an area that has forces balanced to the point the atmosphere gets pulled out away from the surface by the sun or centrifugal forces, but yet is contained by the object's centripetal forces can be called "Gas Giant Objects" (GGO).  Those that are frozen like Pluto can be call "Solid Cold Objects" (SCO). Of which we have a lot beyond that one we called Pluto.  
If we want to we could name each SCO just to have something to do on our slow days.
IF Round THEN
IF Orbiting a star THEN
 IF less than 1000 km in diameter THEN
  IF stellar remnant THEN
   It's an orbiting stellar remnant
  ELSE
   It's a Minor Planet
 ELSE
  IF fusion at it's core THEN
   It's an orbiting Star in a multiple star system
  ELSE
   IF stellar remnant THEN
    It's a orbiting stellar remnant
   ELSE
    It's a Planet
ELSE
 IF less than 1000 km in diameter THEN
  IF stellar remnant THEN
   It's a stellar remnant
  ELSE
   IF it orbits a larger planet THEN
    It's a Moon of a Minor Planet
   ELSE
    If it orbits a same-size planet THEN
     It's a Binary Minor Planet
    ELSE
     It's a rogue Minor Planet (it's not in orbit)
 ELSE
  IF it's a stellar remnant THEN
   It's a stellar remnant
  ELSE
   If it orbits a larger planet THEN
    It's a Moon
   ELSE
    If it orbits a same-size planet THEN
     It's a Binary Planet
    ELSE
     It's a rogue Planet (it's not in orbit)
Else
IF orbiting a star THEN
 It's an asteroid
ELSE
 IF orbiting a planet or minor planet THEN
  It's a Moon (how about Moonlet?)
 ELSE
  IF orbiting a same-size asteroid THEN
   It's still an asteroid (binary asteroid)
  ELSE
   It's a rogue asteroid (not in orbit)

Needs some further refinement, and contains some circular definitions that need to be worked out, but, here it is.
Planet:
* Round because its mass can make it heavy enough to round the surface, or...
* Has atmosphere, and...
* Orbits a star  (beause if orbiting a planet, odds are it will have VERY different sun light, gravity, magnetic field, etc. patterns)

This definition doesnt disqualify other objects that have athmosphere but are not round, I dont think the direction or the angle of the orbit should really matter.
This is a tempest in a celestial teapot. There is no firm separation point between various classifications of space objects. All definitions are somewhat arbitrary due to necessity.

We have the inner rocky planets (earth like), the gas giants (Jupiter like), and the outer plutoids (Pluto like).
Why Plutoids rather than planets? It makes some of us feel better and will enable textbooks to stay up to date for longer periods because there is no doubt a significant number of Pluto like objects will be found, but is an otherwise meaningless distinction.

The current planetary definition about orbit clearing should simply be scrapped as unworkable, and the particular included objects comprising our "true planets" just named. Earth has not cleared it's orbit of NEO's. Neptune has not cleared it's orbit of that pesky Pluto and it's large group of 'friends' with similar paths and composition. We have no way to determine if any of the extra solar planets  have as of yet cleared their orbits.

E-planets, J-planets, P-plutoids ... a far more sensible arrangement of names.
What makes a planet a planet? Too much explanation is not a good thing when one looks at all the objects in this universe
This is the way we got "New Coke"! Some middle- management type sells a bright idea to the boss and it goes thru without too much more thought.Then when it hits the street everyone says "What were they thinking?" They weren't thinking they were brainstorming a publicity stunt to get attention. And they did.
As AE would say, it depends on the point of observation. The moon orbits the sun by orbiting the earth orbiting the sun. So is it a moon and a planet? Is the earth a moon of the sun and a planet with a moon? We know that moonshine is only found on earth, but the IAU obviously found some!
There are some key points that have not been brought out in this discussion:

Any time you're trying to take a continuum of objects and divide it into two classes, there's going to be a grey zone where the classification is ambiguous.  No matter how "planet" is defined, there will be objects on one side of the boundary that reasonable people will think belong on the other side, and vice versa.  For objects that have multiple characteristics (size, self-gravity, composition, location, internal or surface activity, etc.), the problem is exacerbated.

While it is possible to articulate a set of characteristics that, taken together, describe a planet, this is an arbitrary approach.  Further, if we judge this set of characteristics by whether it properly places those objects whose classification we “intuitively” know, then those characteristics become equivalent to having a list of those objects that qualify and those that don’t.  It simply is not possible to come up with a single, unique definition for a planet based on some objective scientific approach.  This is a definition, and as such is arbitrary.

We’ve actually faced this problem before, in defining “life”:  (i) There is no single, unique definition that we believe will apply to all life everywhere, and it may not be possible to objectively arrive at one.  (ii) We currently “define” life by listing its characteristics, and we judge those characteristics by whether they properly classify those objects for which we intuitively know their nature; those objects that meet most or all of the criteria are deemed to be living.  (iii) There are objects in a gray area between living and non-living, and reasonable people can disagree about their classification (e.g., viruses).  (iv) While we have a set of criteria that comes close to defining terrestrial life (that is, based on RNA and DNA), this does not help us in identifying extraterrestrial life that might not use RNA or DNA.

In the end, the classification of objects is done by consensus.  But consensus doesn’t mean unanimous opinion, and there always will be room for legitimate disagreement.  Is the IAU definition of planet a useful one?  It provides an interim classification scheme that helps scientists study the objects in our solar system.  It’s certainly as defensible as any other definition.  And trying to replace it with a different definition that is equally arbitrary but satisfies somebody’s preconceived ideas as to what should qualify seems pointless.
  Troy, your "unbiased factor" using "Earth [as] an orientation reference" looks a little geocentric ;)
  And as for dimissing Mercury as a planet, as noted by somewhere earlier, like Pluto it also lacks an atmosphere...but that idea just pisses me off even more :)
The thing is, if you want Pluto to be a planet, then you have to call Eris a planet as well... it's bigger than Pluto.
  Troy, your next post I'll call "biocentric". The term "planet" should be defined based on geologic considerations, not biologic.
  We know of no "life in any form" that would be happy (or even living for long!) stranded on Venus.
  Soon we'll have excluded every body in the solar system from qualifying for planethood-except Earth, of course.
  oops...I meant my last post in response to Troys FIRST (not last) post. Sorry for my confusion.
Renaming bodies like Pluto is an awful lesson example for our children. If an adult person grew to a hight of under four feet, has a large forehead, and stubby fingers, do we call such a person a subhuman? Absolutely not! So why do we call a body that is smaller than the others, has an offset orbit, and crosses paths with a "big" planet, a Plutoid, or whatever? No, round bodies that orbit the parent body are planets!
With due respect, I disagree with virtually every statement made by Alan Stern.

For example, take this one:

"What if geologists or biologists couldn't make the simplest classifications, like animals vs. plants?"

Fact is biologists continue to beat their heads against walls trying to determine how many kingdoms there are, how to classify algae, and so on. Taxonomy did not end with Linnaeus. It's more complicated than ever. I like the desert island analogy. Biologist were forced to confront new worlds only very recently when new communities were found, for example, living near hydrothermal vents and in other extreme environments.

So, while Dr. Stern brings up interesting points, I question his motivation. Does he feel the object that helps pay his salary through research grants (the planet/dwarf planet/plutoid called Pluto) simply needs more "respect"? His reaction seems a bit over the top. Since when did this become personal?
Here's my question...  What about Saturn?  It has some well known "debris" surrounding the planet.  So it is clear that Saturn has yet to clear it's surrounding space.  Therefore it is not a planet.  And also Jupiter and Uranus have rings too, so they're not planets either.  

This is just ridiculous.  I'm in complete agreement that the definition needs to be much "simpler."  If a body orbits a star, is approximately round, and is greater that Xkm in diameter (or some other easy to identify characteristic) then it's a planet.  If it's between Ykm and Xkm and is round then it's a planetoid.  If it's not round or smaller than Ykm, it's an asteroid.  If it orbits a planet, it's a moon.
Regarding Gordon Freeman's comment.  The "round" requirement is, more fully, having sufficient gravity to approximate roundness.  Simply put, no cigar shapes.  To be a planet it would have to have strong enough gravity to pull in the ends of the cigar.  This says a whole lot more than a simple measurement and is far less arbitrary.
I also think that a stable orbit is important, a planet is a resident, not a wanderer.
If it's in orbit, even half a co-orbit, then I don't see why a dead star wouldn't be called a planet with some history.  After all, every planet used to be a star, or part of a star.

As for Troy's comments, I don't think life is that important in it's being a planet.  This would fall in as one of the categories of planets.  Same with atmosphere, especially since the ability to hold an atmosphere depends greatly on conditions outside the planet.  Solar wind in particular.  Mercury has had it's atmosphere blown away, it's too close.  Saturn, in Mercury's orbit, would have it's atmosphere blown away, as it continued to get more atmosphere by conversion, until it left an Earth sized rock without an atmosphere.  The question of mass answered by roundness is far less arbitrary than whether or not it has atmosphere.
Darn!  The other thing from Gordon.  The fact that an asteroid may have been pounded into roundness isn't the same as it's own gravity crushing it to roundness.  Otherwise, yes, a lot of river rocks could be planets.  Grains of sand.  Macedamia nuts.  Baseballs.
The attempt to use "scientific" dividing lines to delineate categories in such a gray area is at best an exercise in futility and at worst, ridiculous.

Even CalTech's Mike Brown (discoverer of 2003UB313 aka Eris), while an initial advocate of Pluto's "demotion," made a valid point on behalf of the cultural desire toward Pluto's retention of planet status in a web article located at:

http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~mbrown/planetlila/

The next three paragraphs are quoted from his website.  Note especially the analogy he draws in the 2nd paragraph using the word "continent":

"In my view scientists should not be trying to legislate an entirely new definition of the word 'planet.' They should be trying to determine what it means. To the vast majority of society, 'planet' means those large objects we call Mercury through Pluto. We are then left with two cultural choices. (1) Draw the line at Pluto and say there are no more planets; or (2) Draw the line at Pluto and say only things bigger are planets. Both would be culturally acceptable, but to me only the second makes sense for what I think we mean when we say the word planet. In addition, the second continues to allow the possibility that exploration will find a few more planets, which is a much more exciting prospect than that suggested by the first possibility. We don't think the number of planets found by the current generation of researchers will be large. Maybe one or two more. But we think that letting future generations still have a shot at planet-finding is nice.

"Astronomers tend to dislike this solution as it is clearly non-scientific. The best analogy I can come up with, though, is with the definition of the word 'continent.' The word [sounds] like it should have some scientific definition, but clearly there is no way to construct a definition that somehow gets the 7 things we call continents to be singled out. Why is Europe called a separate continent? Only because of culture. You will never hear geologists engaged in a debate about the meaning of the word 'continent' though. When geologists talk about the earth and its land masses they define precisely what they are talking about; they say 'continental crust' or 'continental drift' or 'continental plates' but almost never 'continent.' Astronomers need to learn something from the geologists here and realize that there are a few things -- like continents and planets -- to which people have large emotional attachments, and they should not try to quash that attachment.

"Thus, we declare that the new object, with a size larger than Pluto, is indeed a planet. A cultural planet, a historical planet. I will not argue that it is a scientific planet, because there is no good scientific definition which fits our solar system and our culture, and I have decided to let culture win this one. We scientists will continue our debates, but I hope we are generally ignored."

[End excerpt]

As Mike mentions, Pluto--as a planet--is part of our culture.  Why not just accept that and move on?  And if the scientific community still insists on having a scientific consensus to such an unscientific bit of nomenclature, then why not let the FULL membership of the IAU (~10,000 members, last I heard) decide, rather than glean their "scientific conclusion" from a tiny minority as was done in 2006?  Otherwise, how scientific is that?

Pluto has been defined by our culture, and our culture has deemed it a planet.  Onward and upward, everyone.

My comments were in no way meant as "bio" or "earth" centric. It is just a way to start with objective evidence rather then speculation. The TOAS factor I introduced is based on 7 different cartelistic none of which is based on the possibility of life. There is always going to be transitions stages like water turning to ice. Planets turning to stars, etc. I just wrote an equation to approximate that process.
Troy,
In your post of 6/18, 2352, I'm assuming you meant to use characteristics instead of cartelistic, or maybe there is a definition of cartelistic that I don't know.  If so, please help me out.
Perhaps listing the 7 characteristics would shed light on things, but otherwise, how do you arrive at points of differentation?  As far as I can tell your system is just as arbitrary as any other.  I could come up with a system based on infromation such as color, or reflectivity, or apparent brightness and pick points but would they mean anything?  Your upper limit for a mass that could sustain a fusion reaction is meaningful but how do you arrive at the lower limit for dwarf planets?  It does us no good to replace one arbitrary system with another.  Personally, I'm all for the lower limit being sufficient to approximate roundness, but that seems to be much lower than your limit.  If there is an observable reason for your points I'm interested in knowing what it is.
I don't think "hydrostatic equilibrium" means what previous posters think it means.  It doesn't apply, at least to the best of my knowledge, where physical structure, like we get from solids, is holding a body out instead of pressure, like we get from fusion in a star.
I have used a phrase, not my own, "sufficient gravity to approximate roundness" that means that it's able to reorganise it's solids, sometimes even breaking them with gravitational force, to come to a roundish sort of shape.  This would be a different amount of gravity for different materials of different strengths, so it would be difficult to pick one particular value.  Instead, enough hard rock to pull itself to round would be much more mass than enough meringue to pull itself into round.  As the composition varied the mass necessary would also vary, and there would always be a debateable area as to whether it happened to be round for other reasons or whether there is actually sufficient gravity to account for it's roundness.
Lee Blake,
By capturing its moons or other debris in its orbit a planet has cleared them from its path.  They are locked into its gravity, which can be said of the rocks on earth.  The distinction here is that moons and other debris are not in physical contact with the planet.
Another interesting point on that, there are several points surrounding a planets orbit where that planet can "hold" matter in a gravitaional lock shared with the sun.  I can't remember what those points are called, but we already know I can be vocabularily challenged.  I think there are six points total, and the matter in them orbits the sun, not the planet, under the gravitational influence of the planet.  Outside the planets orbit on the same solar radius as the planet, where the planet's gravity falsely adds to the sun's.  Inside the planets orbit on the same solar radius as the planet, where the planet's gravity falsely subracts from the sun's.  Two points on the planets orbital path some number of degrees from the planet where the math is a little harder to understand.  And, maybe, two more points, but gosh.
Arguably, all have been cleared from the planet's orbital path.  Some rocks fall to the surface, some get locked in planetary orbit, some get locked in solar orbit, but none are doing their own thing.
What about the rumors that one of theses plutoids will pass very close to Earth, causing a possible slight pole shift, fact or fiction ???????
Kyle,
It's possible for many of the KBOs to have orbits that coincide with earth's.  That's a big "where we got our oceans" theory.  Haley's comet is a KBO and has a period of 75 years.  So I'd guess that we've already seen, or at least had the opportunity to see any KBO that has a killer track, or else it's on such a long orbit that it has to pass through so substantial an amount of the kupier belt that it's likely to have it's orbit changed by collission.  Which also means that there's a lot of stuff not on a collission course that could be knocked onto one.  So I'd guess that if there was anything of substantial enough size to effect our planet gravitationally we'd all already know about it.  It's the oort cloud that will catch us unawares.
A few years back we were near missed by an asteroid with no effects that I've heard of.  In the seventies a large meteorite skimmed the atmosphere and the earth didn't flop.  It would take a very large object, probably with a substantial magnetic field, or a direct hit to effect us like that.  And if it's a direct hit, even in water, then you won't care about a pole shift.
More probably an object would be able to alter the moon's orbit and wreak havoc on earth.  Weird tides, we wouldn't know when to harvest, eclipses at weird times, I'd freak out cause we'd probably get to see the rest of the moon.  Who knows what effects an over the poles lunar orbit would have on us?  Or what the effect would be from seeing a relative lunar rotation?  Are there forces at equilibrium with the same face toward us that would vary if the lunar poles were toward us?  At different times of the month, of course.  And a month might only take a week.  That close and high tide might sweep over the continents.
I don't see why they can't just classify planets the way they classify everything else. A dwarf star is still a star, right? So why is it any different with planets?

Personally I agree that they should have a classification system similar to that in Star Trek. Kirk and Spock never sit around debating the details of, for example, a Class M planet. It is what it is, regardless of the size. That's the idea. Of course there would be updating because that's just part of science, adapting to new data, but I hardly see any reason for things to get so excessively technical.

And in my humble opinion, I think the term "dwarf planet" is perfectly acceptable. Calling anything a "little planet" or "little star", as politically correct as it may be, would just be taking things too far. A sensitive, emotional human is one thing. A non-sentient object in space is entirely different.
On Star Trek the planet classification system is far more technical than what we're talking about here.  To be classified "M" a planet must be roughly similar to Earth.  Gravity (size), composition, atmosphere and temperature all must be similar to ours.  In addition, the planet would invariably have to have a magnetic sheild, otherwise the solar wind would strip the planet of atmosphere - it must be within a distance from it's star that maintains the right temperature - and it would be too highly irradiated.  The possible exeptions to the shield / radiation problem would be a planet orbiting a red dwarf in close proximity or a rouge "planet" that falls into the orbit of a white dwarf "star."
Which brings up the white dwarf star is still a star question.  Whether or not it's a star depends on the definition of star, much like the planet question.  A white dwarf is basically a hot rock, so hot it glows.  If a star is defined as "self-luminous" the a white dwarf is a star.  Of course, coals from a fire or a red hot poker would be "Earth bound stars."  But the red hot poker would only be a star on the end you don't hold.  If a star is defined as "a mass in hydro-static equilibrium" then a white dwarf is not a star.  I'm not sure what the scientifically accepted definition is for a star, but you have to interperet it technically.  Same for planets lest we start calling shooting stars stars.
Oh, shoot.  And a brown dwarf isn't a star by any definition I know of.  It would be a rogue planet, so all those bodies that used to be it's planets would now be moons, maybe "rogue moons."  In any event they'd all be "dark matter," although not the mysterious kind.  What would we call those bodies that used to be moons of the used to be planets of the used to be star?
All of it's technical definitions.  Those definitions should, star, planet, nebula, etc. should address a set of basic characteristics that are common to the thing described and unique to that division of cosmic blob.  For a star should we go with self luminous or sustaining fusion?  For a planet is stable orbit important?  Questions of this level need to be fairly general.  Subcategories of stars or planets are where the finer questions need to come in.
We need to leave Christopher Columbus out of this.  He's another whole topic of debate.

The scientists who specialize in planets should make the decisions on what the definition should be.  Not the IAU. Tony's mention of forming an International Planetary Union - or IPU, is a great idea.  

However, with that being said, I don't think there is anything wrong with getting input from other folks as well.  Sometimes I hear some pretty lame determinations by so called "specialists", only to hear a few months later, that a different scientist with a little more common sense corrected the previous determination and gave a more plausible observation.  Hey, if they're wrong, they were wrong.  IAU... quit trying to save face, and fix it, or allow another group that is more specialized in that area to do so.  It just looks stuborn and pig headed to hold onto a definition that does not make sense, that anyone with even a minute amount of scientific knowlege can see is wrong - regardless of the outcome.  GB
Planets are also classified as a rock that has compacted itself so much it became round.  Now pluto is a round "rock", but I agree that it should have an atmosphere and rotate around a star.  If it doesn't then it is a plutoid.  Now to classify a round "rock" that circles a PLANET then that is a moon, as long as it has an orbit around its planet.  I believe all this fighting over a planet is not worth it.  We are discovering new planets almost everyday and some of them are breaking the laws of what we knew about planets and solar systems.   Like the new Super Jupiters.  If we classified them by current standards they would not fit to scale.  Like I said if it is round, has an atmosphere, and orbits a star then it is a planet.
Tim,

Yes - I meant “characteristics.” :)

Without going into too much detail, I plotted the TOAS data and then normalized it to derive a "generic" equation.  Y=8x10^-50*X^(12.32). Where X is the radius and Y is the normalized TOAS Factor. When you normalize the data it become apparent that smaller Plutoid Dwarf Planets (PDP’s) are outliers as at 10^-8 much as fusion reaction gas giants @ 10^+12.

I didn’t say that the above is the best method but it’s a starting point based on objective evidence rather then subjective characteristics.
Troy,

That's interesting because it addresses the way planet formation groups together.  I am thinking of our system starting from a rotating ball of gas and debris cast off from a dying star.  From there it condenses down to what we have today.  The major component of that would be the sun.  I wonder, if you tracked back to the formation of the sun and used that pre-fusion data would your distribution curve tell us anything about system formation.  Could we manipulate it for larger, smaller, faster rotating, different composition seed clouds and predict what the resultant system would look like?  Be able to work backwards from now and develop a map over time of where all the stuff came from and tell what the precurser events were.  Super stars that can only form when those clouds are extremely dense, first generation stars that all died off together, insight into dark matter?  Does your data offer any insight into the formation process?  Was Mars trying to be a gas giant but was too close to the sun so only the rocky parts remain?  I wasn't able to find anything on TOAS factor.  Is there any place I can read up on this?
Tim,

The TOAS factor is my own creation. I had to call it something. :)

While everyone was arguing whether planets are round, white, made of cheese, etc. I just formed a set of 7 criteria that any object would exhibit that a majority of scientist might agree would be needed to form a planet.

The idea was that heavily bodies could go through phase changes like water. If so, specific planetary radii, mass, etc. would be significant to hold and maintain some form or measurable atmosphere. I focused on atmosphere specifically because it seems to be necessary but not sufficient factor in locating potential “earth like planets” else where, and at a critical mass the atmosphere might begin the fission process to become a Star. As I plotted the data it seems that under a specific critical radius an objects ability to maintain any significant atmosphere decreases exponentially. When you plot the data you can actually see the planetary band develop. There will always be gray areas (i.e. Mercury) but I’m sure exceptions can be made to planets whose orbit is so close to Stars that they are stripped of their atmosphere but if they were further way in a more “habitable” zone then they would easily maintain the atmosphere necessary for planetary status.

Using this to model solar system development is intriguing. If you’re more interested in exploring this idea further or possibly publishing this idea then leave a generic contact detail and I will share what I have. It would be nice to refine the theory more.
Definitely interested in pursuing this further.  It's been an idea bouncing around in the back of my head for some time.  rommestim@aol.com.  If that gets edited it's my lastfirst at America on Line.  Looking forward to hearing from you.
A rose by any other name. The numerous connections being made by people between the necessary parameters of determining one class of objects from another to those which determine living organisms, such as a rose from a tulip, mark out visibly the central nature of the confusion - caught half way between wanting a clearcut definition guide based on the way a star system looks and on the other hand the way it evolved.  It is however because of the arbitrary evolution of such a thing as a region of space as compared with the  carefully guided self-manipulation of life's proponents that no such clearcut system can be denoted based solely upon this. An approximate yet reasonably self-consistent balance between these to underpinnings  of definition needs first to be established, e.g. Regardless of Pluto's distance from the Sun, should all Oort cloud objects (based upon their common age) be thusly considered collectively unique.
I loved to read all the interesting opinions on this topic.

Let me add my two cents:

Having read all the comments, I found it very strange that nobody comments on what is, in my opinion, the strongest point that Stern makes, namely this:

Scientists expect, he says, to find large objects somewhere in the deep outer solarsystem.
 Imagine, as he says, that an earth-sized object (or even larger, we might add) is found orbiting at, say, 60 AU.
 Imagine further that its orbit is circular and sits nicely on the ecliptic plane like the other 8 planets.

There is absolutely no doubt that such an object, fitting so nicely and tidyly into the planetary system as it does, would be considered a planet, no matter what the Stern-Levinson parameter or any other formula would have to say about it.

If (when?) that happens, the IAU will have to modify their definition to accomodate this new object.

The definition, therefore, seems to be insufficient from a philosophical point of view: it clearly doesn't capture our conception of what would constitute a planet.

On the other hand: we're not philosophers, but scientist. The definition adequately describes what we KNOW, at this point in time, to be scientific fact (as opposed to what we speculate about). It is true that once new data is in, we may want to change our definition in the light thereof, but that is not the situation we are in now. As long as new data isn't in, we should keep, as Popper would say, a definition that - while correct - is as ambitious and easy-to-falsify as possible.
 That seems to me to be just standard scientific method. In fact: wouldn't it be UNSCIENTIFIC to allow for a planet such as in this example until we KNOW that such planets really exist?

All in all:

I don't mind the new definition. Let's keep it until it becomes clear that it's wrong, and then change it. As we always have. That's just science, isn't it?


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