Doomsday debate update

Posted: Friday, May 30, 2008 3:50 PM by Alan Boyle

EIROforum / CERN

A hardhat worker is dwarfed by the inner workings of the Large Hadron
Collider's ATLAS detector. Click on the image for a larger version.

Could an atom-smasher really create Armageddon? You can delve into the subject with some summer reading as well as a real-life court case.

The next month should see further action in the doomsday lawsuit filed in March - the one claiming that mini-black holes from Europe's Large Hadron Collider could destroy the world. The plaintiffs in the case, Luis Sancho and Walter Wagner, want the CERN particle-physics center to put the $8 billion project on hold until more questions about such a scenario (and others) are answered to their satisfaction.

The federal government (that is, the National Science Foundation, the Department of Energy and DOE-supported Fermilab) is one of the defendants in the case, and it's been served with a summons that requires a response by June 24. Wagner relayed word that Europe's CERN particle-physics center, the other major defendant, was served as well this week.

However, CERN spokesman James Gillies told me today he wasn't aware that any papers had been served. "We haven't received anything as yet," he said.

Gillies said scientists have finished updating a safety report that concludes the particle collider poses no danger of destroying the world. That report is to be presented to the CERN Council next month, and would then be released to the public, he said.

Between now and then, you can get your fix of doomsday speculation by reading Douglas Preston's "Blasphemy," this month's selection for the Cosmic Log Used-Book Club. The CLUB Club focuses on books with cosmic themes that should be available via secondhand-book sellers or your local library - and "Blasphemy" certainly fills the bill on the cosmic front.

The plot revolves (heh, heh) around a fictional particle accelerator that's even bigger than the Large Hadron Collider, built into a huge coal mine on land leased from the Navajos in Arizona. It pits a Svengali-like physicist and his loyal researchers against a doomsaying televangelist and his loyal acolytes, with a grizzled ex-CIA ex-monk in the middle.

It's not often that you come across a book that blends a murder mystery, a love story and a scientific thriller with visions of God (really!?) and an apocalyptic climax of biblical proportions. But "Blasphemy" manages to put all that together, while also giving you a glimpse at what a proton accelerator actually does.

If you listen to the audio version, don't miss the after-the-book interview with Preston, conducted by Scientific American's John Rennie. You can hear the interview by clicking on a link from this Web page.

Do you have your own suggestions for summertime scientific pot-boilers? Herman Wouk's "A Hole in Texas," perhaps? Feel free to add your recommendations as comments below. If your choice becomes a CLUB Club selection, I'll send you a poster featuring cartoonist Roz Chast's particle art for Symmetry magazine.

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Comments

MAN CANNOT CREATE THE FORCES OF NATURE ONLY MINIPULATE THEM TO THE DEGREE OF HIS UNDERSTANDING.
THE SAME WILL BE FOR THE BLAACK HOLE SCENERIO. IF THERE ARE FORCES(WHICH THERE ARE MANY)WE DO NOT UNDERSTAND IN THE FORMATION OF BLACK HOLES THEN WE CAN ONLY CEATE A CERTAIN SET OF CODITIONS IN THE COLLIDER. IT IS MOST LIKELY THERE ARE MORE CONDITIONS THAN WE CURRENTLY UNDERSTAND IN CREATION OF BLACK HOLES AND WITH THIS MACHINE WILL WILL ONLY BE INCHING ONE SMALL STEP INTO THIS NEW FUNDAMENTAL SCIENCE.
IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THIS JUST LOOK AT ATOMIC FUSION AND FISSION. WE KNOW ENOUGH TO CAUSE THE CONDITIONS THAT ALLOW THIS TO OCCUR AND THE FORCES OF NATURE(GOD) TAKES OVER FROM THERE. WE ARE NOT EVEN CLOSE TO FULLY UNDERSTANDING NOR CONTROLLING THESE PROCESSES. SAME WITH MATTER-ANTI-MATTER REACTIONS

STEVE,GREENWOOD S.C. (Sent Sunday, June 01, 2008 8:41 AM)

Although I have not read the book as of yet, it is my belief that just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should. Mankind progresses, but his wisdom must accelerate to catch up with his intelligence. I am not saying that the accelerator should be shut down, but before taking a major step the concequences should be objectively reviewed and weighed heavily beforehand. The potential for unexpected scenarios is way too high and nobody wants to hear "oops how could we have known". The drive that is fundemental within curiosity is strong and has propelled us to the state in which we live currently; however mankind more than once has placed blinders on and have dangerously taken steps that upon retrospect should not have been taken. Change is slow for society and we are still more intelligent than wise. In short, think before you act, crawl before you walk, and mostly do not continue just for the sake of doing so otherwise we will have yet another manhattan project type thing or we will have someone use the new founded technology to create a new form of terror upon the world claiming if we didn't do it someone else will who will use it maliciously! If you don't learn from your mistakes in the past you are doomed to repeat them; how many bricks have to fall on our collective heads before we realize that our technical skill has far surpassed our capacity for wisdom?

Andre Woods, Orange City Florida (Sent Sunday, June 01, 2008 9:14 AM)

I don't know how many people understand this but research like that can lead to learning how to create things. Still that amount of money shouldn't be needed. Some of that should go elsewhere. And doomsday? I think we've royally screwed ourselves pretty well already dontcha think?

emma, seattle, wash. 9th grader (Sent Sunday, June 01, 2008 12:17 PM)

oh and 4th grade science wasn't planets, blackholes, atom smashing, or any of that. It was learning about the metric system

emma, seattle, wash. 9th grader (Sent Sunday, June 01, 2008 12:20 PM)

I say turn it on. I'm bored and need to either laugh or cry. I'm sure if there is a god it's either in his plans or he figures it's a good way to end all the suffering we cause to each other. Flip the switch, make a bang!

Tom, Seguin, TX (Sent Sunday, June 01, 2008 2:29 PM)

Well, "black holes" have already been created in other labs and were still here. This project will create a better understanding of quantium physics and needs to be explored. I'm not going to get all "tech-ie" and detail how there are current labs that have and still create sub-atomic black holes, that's not the point. The point is there is no evidence to back up the "end of everything" nay-sayers and there will ALWAYS be nay-sayers, and the proof is there for the creation on sub-atomic black holes to pose no threat...And the science will help (mankind) in the long run.

Sean F. Maloni, Springfield, Massachusetts (Sent Sunday, June 01, 2008 4:51 PM)

ALSO: Castle Bravo was a dry H-Bomb test of Dr. Hellers that surpased it's estimated 5Mega-Ton power by apx. 10Mega-Tons...And has nothing to do with this debate...

Sean F. Maloni, Springfield, Massachusetts (Sent Sunday, June 01, 2008 4:54 PM)

@Dude, hilarious!

Turn key released, panic device is ready.

On your mark...

ibanks Seattle, WA (Sent Sunday, June 01, 2008 7:36 PM)

One of the interesting things I've observed here is the overwhelming voice that there could actually be a black hole of sorts birthed from collision of particles.

The reason why I find it odd, is because when I first heard about colliders when I was a boy; particles moved faster than light, and we learned it created a lot of energy from colliding just two heavier particles.

With no prompting, and only good ole fashioned common sense with a fascination for high energy, and advanced scientific research, I too wondered if such a machine could possibly create a black hole. Only to hear that echoed by many others and this article as well.

The other odd thing was, when I was younger we didn't know what a black hole was (or at least wasn't taught), but it seemed so obvious to me that when a star collapsed, it formed a black hole. Now there are probably other events that can cause a black hole, but at that time, I surmized that a black hole would be caused by the final events of a collapsing star. It seemed obvious to me that its a cycle, with a black hole gathering an immesurable amount of mass... My guess would be that its a cycle designed to recover elements needed to either FILL the hole as a cosmic plug, or simply to gather material to super compress more fuel for yet another star...

I'm just sharing a couple of thoughts that I've had in the past regarding black holes, and that I think its kind of weird that without outside prompting I came to the decision that it is indeed likely to form a black hole in this manner.

I also believe personally that God had created a fantastic and stable physics system, one that includes saftey nets for such events. So on a scale as large as a star collapsing, its designed to do what it does, but on a scale that we can curently (possibly) cause, I don't believe that it would cause damage on an epic gobal scale.

This is not to say, it should be taken lightly, but at the same time, continue the research we have no other way of measuring particles in such a state, and likley will hold key physics data that we will use to leverage our usherance out of the information age to something even more exciting.

Beau (Sent Sunday, June 01, 2008 10:58 PM)

But Dude!

The point is they didn't expect the lithium-7 to contribute significantly to the explosion, but it did. They didn't completely understand the conditions that it would be subjected to, or how it would react.

The analogy stands on the fact that they don't precisely know what is going to happen in these experiments either, otherwise they wouldn't need to do them.

Also, even CERN conceeds that they may very well create microscopic black holes, they just don't expect them to cause problems.

That said, the cosmic ray argument is persuasive, although the collisions produced don't necessarily occur under precisely the same conditions as LHC. I am actually looking forward to the advances the LHC may bring and don't really expect anything bad to happen, but there is always a chance.

I just don't like to see people assume that the "authorities" are infallable and never to be questioned, whether those authorities are religious or political leaders or scientists.

Dan, Vancouver WA (Sent Monday, June 02, 2008 12:35 AM)

Playing God!
Nobel Prize hungry Physicists are racing each other and stopping at nothing to try to find the supposed 'Higgs Boson'(aka 'God') Particle, among others, and are risking nothing less than the annihilation of the Earth and all Life in endless experiments to try to solve theoretical problems when urgent real problems face the planet. The European Organization for Nuclear Research(CERN) new Large Hadron Collider(LHC) is the world's most powerful atom smasher that will soon be firing subatomic particles at each other at nearly the speed of light to create Miniature Big Bangs producing clouds of Micro Black Holes, Strangelets and other potentially cataclysmic phenomena as described below.
The CERN-LHC website Mainpage itself states quote: "There are many theories as to what will result from these collisions,..." This stunning admission is because they truly don't know what's going to happen. They are experimenting with forces they don't understand to obtain results they can't comprehend. If you think like most people do that 'They must know what they're doing.' you could not be more wrong. The second part of the quote reads "...but what's for sure is that a brave new world of physics will emerge from the new accelerator,..." A molecularly changed or Black Hole consumed Lifeless World? The end of the quote reads "as knowledge in particle physics goes on to describe the workings of the Universe." These experiments to date have so far produced infinitely more questions than answers but there isn't a particle experimentalist physicist alive who wouldn't gladly trade his life to glimpse the "God particle", and sacrifice the rest of us with him.
This quote from Nation Geographic exactly sums this "science" up: "That's the essence of experimental particle physics: You smash stuff together and see what other stuff comes out."
For more information visit;
http://www.lhcdefense.org/
http://www.lhcconcerns.com
http://www.SaneScience.org/
http://www.LHCFacts.org
Popular Mechanics - "World's Biggest Science Project Aims to Unlock 'God Particle'" - http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/extreme_machines/4216588.html"

Walt G. (Sent Monday, June 02, 2008 2:22 AM)

ok so, im no scientist, but uh doesnt a black hole have an insatiable appetite for, well EVERYTHING? matter, light, and everything in between? micro or not, sounds like an unstoppable chain reaction to me. isnt it the nature of a black hole to grow exponentialy? whos to say a back hole isnt micro to begin with, anyone ever measured one? just my 2 cents.

justa dude (Sent Monday, June 02, 2008 7:02 AM)

Cosmic rays hitting the atmosphere have more energy than the particles the LHC will be smashing.

Claiming that there's a danger of creating a long-lived black hole that's capable of swallowing the earth shows an ignorance of physics.

Joe, Chicago (Sent Monday, June 02, 2008 10:33 AM)

I started my electrician's career in a small "university" town almost 40 years ago. I met and worked for many of the university's professors in their homes. I can tell you all, as a matter of fact, that not all "professors" are endowed equally with the same amounts of intelligence! Most seemed to have a sincere lack of common sense, which made me quite leery of their actual qualifications. Don't get me wrong! They were all very "book smart" people but most didn't have a full grasp of everyday reality! In other words some couldn't "pour piss from a boot with the directions printed on the heal." I think that these are the ones that slow real progress in science. They can't think "outside of the box." but they have tenure.

J. Quinlan (Sent Monday, June 02, 2008 11:10 AM)

looks to me like Jtankers is a plant of the people seeking to stop this project. He sure has a lot of time to go and find "evidence" to post to refute anyone's claims or statements.

Jason, Dallas, Tx (Sent Monday, June 02, 2008 11:25 AM)

the negative strangelet hypothesis is far more interesting than micro blackholes

BW, Atlanta, GA (Sent Monday, June 02, 2008 11:52 AM)

"nothing discovered in sub-atomic research is going to feed people, generate electricity, cure cancer or open doors to new technologies."

This is wrong at all levels.
Think about this:
Man discovers why mass has gravity.
Man now knows how to undo gravity.
Man builds ant-gravity devices to lift things.
Man builds anti-gravity vehicles.
Man builds anti-gravity suits for people.
Man no longer needs anti-gravity vehicles.
The list can go on and on. The prospect of the higgs boson is almost mind boggling

daniela smith killeen texas (Sent Monday, June 02, 2008 12:58 PM)

I am not even sure why people are attacking the LHC... is it purely fear attributed to mini black holes or is it something deeper? The fact that people are attacking the LHC shows the narrow mindedness and true ignorance that has hindered the progression of science since the beginning of scientific thought. Who knows where are technology would be today if the Romans never squashed the great greek scholars and crushed the pursuit of intelligence thriving at Alexandria.
The LHC embodies an idea of what it means to be human, the search for understanding, the ability to ask "why?" An innate human quality is to yearn for a deeper understanding of our existence in this universe, whether this is approached via a religious approach or a scientific one, the idea remains the same. To attack the LHC to is attack the one quality that has allowed us to progress as an intelligent species so that we may have the ability to ask the question "why?"
The LHC is not going to destroy the earth, this is absurd, enough said. If anything, it may destroy some naive notions that a few people cling to about the origins of our planet and the universe, but surely this is of no consequence. The LHC is a pinnacle of achievement and should be recognized as such. It is our greatest attempt as an intelligent race to better understand life, not destroy it. It is truly a technological marvel, and the main feeling bristling thorugh the air should be excitement, not fear. The LHC is just one more stepping stone in answering the ultimate questions of "how and why are we here?", and if it cannot, then surely its predescor will try. Indeed I look forward to the bright future of discovery the LHC may provide by illuminating a gloomy past. Humans strive to investigate themselves and the universe we are in, but the true nature of investigation is the joyous moment of discovery. Thankfully the creators of the LHC believe in and know this feeling, and hopefully one day so will the confused people who seek to destroy scientific thought.

BH, Pittsburgh, PA (Sent Monday, June 02, 2008 1:00 PM)

Why do we THINK we even need to mess around with this stuff? I believe some things should just be left alone. Just because some scientists come up with some calculation about a theory, doesn't mean they have to go play with it at everyone elses expense. There are alot of more real problems in the world that rate a whole lot higher than this thing.

Bob H (Sent Monday, June 02, 2008 1:47 PM)

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't particles collide at near relativistic in our atmosphere all the time (cosmic rays)? All this seems to be doing is doing this in a place where they can be easily observed. If this was a doomsday machine I think all this would be moot because "mini black holes" would have devoured our world billions of years ago.

Can't stand your ignorance (Sent Monday, June 02, 2008 2:45 PM)

Aramis:
How do you propose scientists decide what research will or won't be fruitful before the research is done? Even cancer research doesn't always lead to a cure in every case. But every project tells us something valuable, which can then be used to look in new directions that may turn out to be fruitful.

If people like you had your way Columbus would not have sailed across the Atlantic, because even in his time people debated the usefulness of such a costly and risky venture. Where would you be now if he didn't?

What about the early astronomers? Copernicus, Aristotle, Galileo - how was their research applicable to the problems of the time? But without their knowledge to build on there would be no satellites, no moon landing, no space program at all. Many advances in materials engineering, physics, medicine and chemistry have stemmed from these programs. And further into the future I suspect we will reap even more rewards - all stemming from the work of the early pioneers.

So not all research yields immediate results. And we can never know what gem of knowledge may lie under what, as yet undisturbed corner of our world, but that is why we look everywhere. And in the future how can we know how some piece of seemingly useless information may be part of a great advancement?

Mike, Long Island, NY (Sent Monday, June 02, 2008 3:16 PM)

You doomsayers are just like the people who thought Project Trinity would set the atmosphere on fire. If you spent as much time writing your local lawmakers about things that really matter as you do spreading misinformation on topics like this, the world would be a better place.

troy, fargo, nd (Sent Monday, June 02, 2008 3:24 PM)

The paranoia and ignorance shown here makes me wonder if destruction of the earth would be such a bad thing.

For God's sake people, turn off the Sci File Channel and the video games and read real book written by a qualified scientist.

You alarmists are just looking for attention in your failed lives just like the nut Salazaar.

Maxwell, Rapid City, SD (Sent Monday, June 02, 2008 4:11 PM)

If a black hole is created, and it quickly consumes the earth - so quickly no one suffers. Will it matter at all? Who would it matter to?
We all are going to die, and the universe certainly doesn't notice us - the rest is just ego.

Steveo, Los Angeles, CA (Sent Monday, June 02, 2008 4:49 PM)

"Look, I know scientists like empirical research, but let's face it, nothing discovered in sub-atomic research is going to feed people, generate electricity, cure cancer or open doors to new technologies."

LOL! You don't know that. Equally esoteric research in the 1930's led to nuclear power (for good and ill) as we know it today.

"While enjoy understanding the universe, I accept that there are limits beyond which we can never know what is happening."

And you cannot know if and what those limits are, without actually investigating.

That's what science is, and how it differs from faith.

Frank Glover Rochester, NY (Sent Monday, June 02, 2008 5:51 PM)

Maybe we will find we can actually confine and control a mini black hole and use it to produce a consistent amount of energy.
A black hole that gobbles up matter at a consistent but slow rate, but gives it back as energy which we convert to running our cars, heating our homes, fueling our factories and etc. The rate would be in relation to the end of earth's time. The Earth's fuel would just about be used up when the sun finally loses it's fuel and burns up Mercury, Venus and the Earth. Man would be gone anyway and the black hole would be just another part of space.
The cost of producing usable electricity would be shared by all peoples of the earth on a rate of population per country. The higher the population, the lower the rate as will be noted below.
We could confine it to a non populated section of earth. We could call it Audrey III because we could feed it with our deceased population. What a way to know you will be part of helping your fellow humans forever. The higher the population, the less your fellow countrymen would have to pay. After all the higher population provides the most fuel.

Delmar Fairchild, Barron, WI (Sent Monday, June 02, 2008 6:36 PM)

You know, so many of us are looking foreward to what CERN might provide us with: energy, 'god particle', and so many other 'theoretical' positives. If we had put a fraction of the funding into the study of renewable energy resources (sun, wind, water), maybe we could come up with alternate solutions that don't involve the potential destruction of the planet (which seems to be where it's all headed anyways, what with pollution, ozone layer depletion, contamination of soil and water, global warming, and the depletion and extinction of 1% of earth animal species per year). Makes me wonder why we haven't put nearly as many resources into fixing the problems we have already created as is being put into CERN and military research. It all gives me flashbacks to 'the manhatten project' and the atomic bomb. Yeah we now have nuclear power and all the peripherals, but how many lives did that cost? Oppenheimer himself said "I am become death, destroyer of worlds", while many of the other creators and scientists were of the same opinion. We only opened doors to bigger problems. Do we really have any doubt as to what will happen when we find out this research can produce an ungodly amount of power? Weapons. And then maybe some will be put to 'good causes' to shut everyone up. This is all about power, politics and who's 'bigger and better'. All this talk of 'bettering the human race' is really just frustrating because if we were putting as much effort and funding into helping the world as we are into CERN and military, maybe we'd actually see some change. What's the rush to jump into projects like this? Fix the problems we do have, then think about creating more...

Chris Blaze, Vancouver BC (Sent Monday, June 02, 2008 6:47 PM)

matthew, bemidji
A person who certainly knows more than me about this, but still perhaps not engough to ask exactly the right questions to the rarified crowd that claims "no problem" has pointed out that the micro-black-holes that may be bombarding us now are presently thought to be generated by interactions with cosmic ray particles, those hotrods of the universe, which naturally impart such a velocity to the resulting MBH that it skitters off for parts unknown, even right through the earth, or sun, possibly being captured by a neutron star that happens to be in a likely location. The LHC will end up generating these MBH's within the parameters of the earth's rest frame (reletivisitcally speaking). Also, the collision will be head-on, meaning that the starting velocity and vector of the MBH may or may not be above the escape velocity of earth, or the sun. The numbers I've read being bandied about on the subject of a black hole or holes growing to swallow the earth range from 5 Billion years to 50 months. I guess we have the potential to learn a number important things here, like, can we generate the things (some folks have calculated up to 1 per second during the run), is Steven Hawking correct in that a small enough black hole should evaporate, and last but not least, my favorite, the solution to the Fermi Paradox (where are all those intelligent aliens anyway?)
Me no Luddite by the way, just wondering if all those Billions of euro's expended on the LHC are burning a hole in some folks's sense of caution. the pressure to go ahead and the fear of being stopped must be enormous. Just the national prestige at stake is enough to sink any number of battleships.

jdtseattlewa (Sent Monday, June 02, 2008 9:03 PM)

Article: "CERN spokesman James Gillies told me today he wasn't aware that any papers had been served."

Copies of documents related to serving the legal papers to CERN are available at: http://www.lhcfacts.org/?cat=50

James Tankersley Jr., Middleton WI (Sent Thursday, June 05, 2008 1:38 AM)

One reason there are so many starving people:
Over breeding / Over Population
Same reason for pollution.

No matter... This project is a WASTE of money and energy which Must be directed towards solving global suffering of all lifeforms. The money and effort directed towards "defense" industry and toward wars is the greatest waste of human resources.

Kill your Televisions. Bring your family and communities Together again. End your bitter religious and racial prejudices. EDUCATE people about real things and down-to-Earth living.

Do not submit to those who believe they are the "chosen ones".. i.e. the politicians and the self-proclaimed 'elite' families. They are ruining your lives because you allow them to control you.

Think and use your brains. Think OUTSIDE the box.

Henry, Skipton, England (Sent Friday, June 06, 2008 4:48 AM)

I am assisting in educating about the potential danger and counter unsupportable public relations statements of “no danger”, “don’t worry…” concerning operation of the Large Hadron Collider.

The physicists involved, actually a majority of experimental physicists really really want to believe that this type of experimentation is safe, otherwise it could shut down a huge amount of science research.

The problem is not only might it be unsafe, it might be really really unsafe.

A primary issue is that the energies are so high that the experiment may collapse some particles into ‘micro black holes’. (CERN estimates possible creation at a rate of one per second).

If these exotic particles evaporate or grow extremely slowly, then there would be no problem. However several PHDs in Math and Physics and other theoretical sciences (I can provide quotes and links) believe that BOTH might be false. Micro black holes may likely NOT evaporate and they likely might grow relatively QUICKLY.

That might mean that in a matter of just perhaps a few years or decades a single micro black hole could grow so large that it might actually collapse the entire Earth into it.

CERN wishes to start operating the LHC experiment later this year and is planning to release a study that will attempt to prove safety. But it might not be possible. And the fear is that the experiment might go forward anyway, with the hope that it will prove to be safe…

The alternative is hugely negative for the thousands employed by the experiments and who have been working for years to conduct their experiments. Big stakes for careers, science, prestige, funding, etc.

A court case before US Federal Courts to compel reasonable proof of safety has its first hearing on June 16, 2008 in Hawaii.

More information is also available at other sites, including LHCFacts.org and LHCDefense.org (wealth of quotes, links, articles, etc. from independent sources and credible experts).

Cheers

James Tankersley Jr (Sent Friday, June 06, 2008 7:00 PM)

Matthew, Bemidji writes: "...are they a threat. all current information about the topic points to no."

Unfortunately, current information is so lacking that no physicist knows for certain. The lawsuit estimates that the risk can be calculated in the range of a 50% probability that the Large Hadron Collider might pose an existential threat to the planet (might destroy it).

Estimates might certainly change if CERN's safety study can reasonably prove otherwise, but currently we do not have good reason to support claims of "no risk". That assertion is not supportable with respect to the LHC based on completed, released and verified studies.

James Tankersley Jr (Sent Friday, June 06, 2008 7:08 PM)

Matthew.. casually speaking... I was under the impression that a black hole's energy or force (how fast anything would be consumed)...is in fact related to the size of the black hole starting with width. Now, I delve casually into my favorite subject astro-physics now and then as a generlly bored curious person would do (OK maybe not...)So, that being said I think that we really do not know what the outcome will be once this accelerator turns on. What I am saying in an ideal world based on the research and all the planning that any small infraction in the processes of this machinery and we then will find out. Lets accept the fact the we really don't know exactly with certainty at 100% what the outcome would be in the event of a malfunction either. I chuckle here thinking at the vastness of the machinery required to act on such small particles we know and are yet to try and identify. Look at the size of things here.! What my concern is truly is that we could effectuate change in what we thought were the only or the known particles. I say we still have a few unknown particles left in door number one. That being said, I just hope they have in place as best as they can plan for and create a back up plan for the unknown. Many things have been and will continue to be discovered by accident as we all know. This could be another one of those discoveries by accident, no doubt. I hope their life (really death)insurance is paid up thats all!

As far as searching for the GOD particle, and beyond...

I have to agree with ONE;

"...we don't know all that we don't know..."

RAVEN

RAVEN (Sent Tuesday, June 17, 2008 12:21 AM)

Aramis Rosicrux:
Without sub-atomic research, we might never have discovered, for instance, superconductors. This discovery led to, among other things, the MRI machine.

I hope you never have a brain tumor; your life might be saved by a device created from "wasted research".

Jeremy G., Greensboro, NC (Sent Tuesday, June 17, 2008 4:15 PM)

I've seen The 5 Scenarios To The End Times...and it seems to me, mankind has done a pretty good job of screwin' up this planet so far.
A machine that may create a 'black hole' doesn't seem to far fetched. And it only takes ONE man to hit the wrong button!...Then we'll all be seeing ... GOD.

Dave (Sent Wednesday, June 18, 2008 11:17 AM)

The 1990 David Brin Novel actually predicts this scenario among others and won the HUGO Award in 1991....check it out

rich rizzo, New York, NY (Sent Tuesday, July 29, 2008 4:54 PM)

looks like someone has weapons of mass destruction...

thinking about this, wasnt the guy that invented the atomic bomb concerned that it could consume earths atmosphere in the explosion? and they still checked it out

Dario, Cali (Sent Thursday, July 31, 2008 11:31 AM)

The scientists involved in the LHC experiment have admitted to not knowing what the results will be - whether they will find the Higgs bosons that they are looking for.

Correct me if I'm wrong - RESULTS is only half the synonym of the word OUTCOME. The other half is CONSEQUENCES.

If they are unsure of the results, how can they claim anything regarding consequences.

The truth is-- they don't know what the OUTCOME will be - the results and CONSEQUENCES.

The truth is - scientific experiments can and have gone wrong in the past. That is why we use guinea pigs.

But in the LHC experiment the guinea pig is not a lab mouse. It's the planet Earth.

Claiming that they can "control" it is beyond comprehension to me - when they DON'T KNOW THE OUTCOME.

They say the ODDS are like winning the lotto. Well every week a lotto winner (sometimes "winners") are announced.

World War I and World War II evidenced the human race's capacity in slipping into the rabbit hole of collective madness.

There may be no World War III, but the LHC experiment will do.

Remember lone and persecuted Galileo against ALL the other scientists/astronomers?

For me, a truly intelligent scientist is one in a million. All the others for all their "brilliance" are just monkeys who like to poke at things and see what happens.

thegoodguy.net (Sent Wednesday, August 06, 2008 12:24 PM)

firstly how acurate is a safty report since noone know how it will react in certin ,

there is always a grave danger when messing with the unknowen How meny of you people have your own veiws

Personlly i think its a expensive flee show and if it does work it could possibly do more bad then good

hence what would happen if you can recreated god matter "what will it do will it be heavy???? will it expaned and if the contaner they have it in LHC 27kms of A instument that screws with subatomic particals"

A big bang alright chinobl x5

ron melbourne australia (Sent Tuesday, September 09, 2008 2:27 PM)

WE MUSLIMS ARE AT EASE WITH THIS EXPERIMENT OF LHC. ALMIGHTY ALLAH HAS COMMANDED US IN THE KORAN TO SEEK KNOWLEDGE WHEN EVER WE CAN. HE SAID THAT IF WE CAN BREAK THE HEAVENS LET US DO IT. BUT WE SHOULD KNOW THAT IT IS ONLY WITH HIS PERMISSION THAT WE CAN DO IT. SO CARRY ON GUYS, CONTINUE TO SMASH THE DOLLARS!!

Kabir , Katsina (Sent Friday, September 12, 2008 3:04 PM)

Read through all of the comments from this page. You will find that the people that are for the particle accelerator know what they are talking about, while the religous buffs "think" they know what they are talking about. If you are going to make comments on things like this, do your research instead of making factless accusations.

Grayson Secor, Etowah NC (Sent Monday, November 17, 2008 7:36 PM)

" 0 + 0 = 1 "

barry, victoria , B.C. (Sent Sunday, October 11, 2009 10:57 PM)

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