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Quantum fluctuations in space, science, exploration and other cosmic fields... served up regularly by MSNBC.com science editor Alan Boyle since 2002.

Alan Boyle covers the physical sciences, anthropology, technological innovation and space science and exploration for MSNBC.com. He is a winner of the AAAS Science Journalism Award, the NASW Science-in-Society Award and other honors; a contributor to "A Field Guide for Science Writers"; and a member of the board of the Council for the Advancement of Science Writing.

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The next great planet debate

Posted: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 3:30 PM by Alan Boyle


STScI / NASA
Pluto and its satellite
Charon are the larger
objects in this Hubble
Space Telescope image.
Two even smaller
satellites, Nix and Hydra,
can be seen to the right.

How do you define a planet? Officials at the International Astronomical Union thought the matter was settled more than a year ago when it drew up a definition of planethood that separated little Pluto from its eight bigger siblings and put it in the dwarf-planet category. Boy, were they wrong.

Many astronomers say the definition that the IAU came up doesn't adequately reflect the diversity of worlds we see even in our own solar system - and arguably, might even exclude Jupiter as an official planet. Now a replay of the "Great Planet Debate" has been scheduled for August. Pluto may remain in the pint-size pigeonhole - but the other planets, in our solar system and beyond, would get their own pigeonholes as well.

The "Great Planet Debate" is due to begin on Aug. 14 at Johns Hopkins University's Applied Physics Laboratory in Laurel, Md. Here's how the conference is described on APL's Web site:

"During the first two days of the conference, we will present what we have learned about planetary bodies over more than 40 years of robotic exploration of the Solar System and what we are learning about planets around other stars. The IAU’s dynamical definition of a planet will be presented, as well as an alternative geophysical definition. The utility of each will be debated, along with other potential planet definitions.

"A public lecture and panel discussion, featuring scientists who are prominent in the debate on planet definitions, is planned for the evening of the second day, following a reception that concludes the scientific portion of the conference.

"The third day of the meeting will be an Educator Workshop to discuss how the question of 'The Great Planet Debate' should be treated in schools and how that can be used as a springboard to discuss science as a process, as well as other topics in planetary science."

So what's being proposed as an alternative to the IAU's definition? The answer comes in a paper prepared last year by one of the conference's organizers, Mark Sykes of the Planetary Science Institute:

"'A planet is an object orbiting a star that has mass sufficient to maintain a gravity-determined (hydrostatic equilibrium) shape.' More simply put, planets are 'round' objects that orbit stars. Spacecraft imagery reveals that it is at this point of 'roundness' that solar system bodies begin to exhibit geology - reflecting interior processes, not just impact history. Smaller bodies (e.g., asteroids) are irregular 'inactive' objects. This definition is easily extensible to objects around other stars, unlike the [IAU's] Prague definition. ..."

The idea of revisiting the definition of planethood was a lively topic in Boston earlier this week during the American Association for the Advancement of Science's annual meeting - and it was in that context that Alan Stern, NASA's associate administrator for science, mentioned the August event.

Before he was brought into the space agency, Stern was one of the most vocal critics of the IAU's definition in his role as principal investigator for NASA's New Horizons mission to Pluto - and he's long been calling for just the kind of debate that is now scheduled to take place in August.

David Morrison, senior scientist at the NASA Astrobiology Institute at Ames Research Center in California, said astronomers are gaining a growing appreciation of the "wonderful diversity that we're finding outside our own solar system as well as inside."

The growing consensus is that it's wrong to divide the planetary lineup into first-class and second-class worlds. Planetary scientists say it's better to think of rocky, terrestrial planets (such as Earth, Mars, Venus and Mercury); gas giants (Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune) and dwarfs (Pluto, Eris and Ceres, for example).

Morrison said there would almost certainly be other categories to come.

"I think any definition that was based just on the objects in our own solar system is going to be blown away when we actually look at the variety of other solar systems and the variety of things we think of as planets," he told me.

IAU delegates are due to gather again next year in Rio de Janeiro, and there's been some talk that revisions in the definition of planethood may be offered at that meeting. But Morrison and many of his colleagues say they won't look to the IAU for guidance, even if the organization decides to reconsider its Prague resolution. 

"I don't think the IAU should have been in this business in the first place," Morrison said. "If you look in a dictionary and you look up any word, you'll usually find four or five or six definitions. There's not one unique definition. You don't need a big international body to pass resolutions and vote to define a word.

"I think the IAU should just drop it," he said.

What do you think? Feel free to weigh in with your own arguments for the next "Great Planet Debate."

Update for 1:15 a.m. ET Feb. 21: The Planetary Science Institute's Sykes got back to me with an e-mail that goes into more detail on his proposed definition:

"...The definition is simple - planets are round things (in hydrostatic equilibrium against gravity) that orbit stars. This was basically the same thing proposed to the IAU, against which the dynamicists revolted.

"Dynamicists tend to think of objects as point sources whose importance depends upon their gravitational effects on other objects. The problem at the IAU was that everyone was involved in whether or not Pluto would be a planet, so the discussion that I saw was less than scientific. The Pluto-huggers were pushing roundness, the Pluto-haters were pushing dynamical dominance.

"When I started thinking about it more closely, my thought was focused on the intrinsic physical processes we study on the very different worlds to which we have sent spacecraft over the past 40-plus years. These processes are all related to phenomena we study on Earth (atmospheric processes, tectonics, volcanism, life, etc.). What I noticed is that all the objects for which any of these processes are observed are round. All objects on which none of these processes are observed are irregular.

"There are some very interesting reasons why 'round' is important in this situation - dealing with the onset of differentiation, mantle convection, etc. ('geophysical processes'). For those of us who study the physical characteristics of planetary bodies, who want to identify those objects that are expected to share these processes as a means of focusing our own scientific investigations (and targeting spacecraft), the geophysical definition is useful and the IAU definition is not. The IAU definition is useful as well, but to a much narrower group of investigators who happen to dominate the IAU and are far from representative of the planetary community (more members of which belong to geophysical professional societies than astronomical societies, interestingly).

"So do we teach children about who is 'right' or who is 'wrong'? I don't think so. Because of the public interest in the topic, I think it is a wonderful opportunity to discuss science as a process instead of a list of dry 'facts' delivered from on high."

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I think Pluto should be considered a regular planet, get rid of these stupid categories like "dwarf planet."
I have pondered upon the definition of a planet, the original definition is "wandering star" which is obsolete but has been adopted to new science fact. then  three planets where added, Ceres was added in 1801 then dropped,Pluto was added then dropped. The current definition of a planet can never be black and white to modern science because of obvious reasons, I agree with the previous blog regarding planet "species". if it orbits a star its a planet, there are countless planets in our solar system, very different shapes, sizes, compositions(comets), lifespans(comets) and orbits. when we point new telescopes at the stars we are going to find millions of these, as well as unconceivable objects, one of a kind objects, that will have us scratching our heads. We shouldn't subject our time trying to categorize objects that blur between definitions originating from prehistoric references that where not understood at that time   nor should we call an object one thing and not another. a new word should be given to a new definition of a planet. I think a new concept should be adopted for planetary systems, the ten largest  bodies in any given star system should be given this definition, the ten largest moons around a planet another definition no matter the size, if it is so small it has no useful value it does not have to be given a formal name per vote, sizes 11 through 1000 another definition, and so on, brown dwarfs don't get any part of the sizing. brown dwarfs have the new moon definition for bodies orbiting it, and can have a definition for moon of a moon, brown dwarfs and other non nuclear bodies not orbiting a star are the replacement definitions for planets not orbiting stars. the new definitions can keep going, requires a little traditional sacrifice but will clear up the confusion when we need to reference 1 planet out of a million others. to close the book on the issue end the use of the term "planet" as we know it by giving back Pluto its planethood give Iris Planethood, give the 8 other planets catalog numbers like asteroids and everything else has, then you will have ten "planets" never add another planet to the Planethood, just start using the new defined words for the rest of the millions of bodies out there and these ten as well. the current species of worlds like comets, asteroids, ice Giants and many others can stay, but should be considered attributes to the new founded definitions.            
Are scientists and astronomers at the IAU truly so desperate to prove something ground-breaking within their own life times that they feel the need to start disproving something is what is by saying what it isn’t? How childish is that? Brian Hufe (Newark, DE), Byron Raum (Beverly Hills, CA), and Scott (???), as well as many others, give great definitions of a planet, which are widely accepted by many. Given those definitions, to say that Pluto and its moon Charon are only two hunks of rock that happen to be stuck in our suns gravitational pull smells of hypocrisy to me. That's like saying our coccyx is only the end of our spines and wasn't once the beginning of our tails. If it is possible that we once had tails, then maybe Pluto had a greater atmosphere eons go. There is clearly ice on the planet at the present, and when it nears the Sun, a thicker atmosphere of nitrogen, methane and carbon monoxide are apparent. This may not be my field of research, but all of the above sure sounds like characteristics of a planet to me. To proceed to adjust the definition of a word—or to basically bandy words about—just for the sole purpose of fluffing ones own ego and status in their respected field is poor research indeed. Poor Pluto…why don’t they leave him alone and pick on a planet their own size?
A scientist is an entity that circles a central idea and clears its area of all common sense. Those entities who have not cleared their area of all common sense are "dwarf" scientists. Seems logical to me.
Given the criteria, does this mean that we can classify Rush Limbaugh as a "gas-giant"?
It has to orbit a star to be a planet?  Binary systems and systems with their gas giants close to their star will likely have ejected their rocky planets and smaller gas giants into interstellar space.  There may be as many, or more, of these objects than planets orbiting a star.  Talk about a hazard to navigation for starships and a really bad day for the Earth if we got hit.  But they would still be planets, frozen to three degrees Kelvin, floating out there between the stars.  Even gas giants would eventually, after billions of years, freeze solid with only a thin ocean of liquid helium on their surfaces.  These would neither be giants, nor gaseous, yet have a composition like Jupiter.  What would you call them? Dwarf Gas Giants?  Popsicles?  

The only workable definition would be a round object that achieved and maintains its roundness from gravity
AND has never sustained a thermonuclear reaction.  This leaves out white dwarfs and neutron stars.  They once sustained fusion until their fuel ran out.  Black holes would never qualify because a singularity does not have roundness, it is a mathematical point.
The event horizon of a black hole is not a surface
(common mistake of non-scientists and even undergrad physics students).

This leaves Pluto as a planet and unfortunately there
could be thousands more out there in the Oort cloud or further out, bound to the sun.  Children would still learn the traditional nine.  What is important is they know there are many more after that, including Ceres and Vega in the asteroid belt.  If they want they can learn more if they are interested in astronomy.

I am sure there are some whoppers out there beyond Pluto that are as large as the earth or bigger.  They could sell the naming right to those to large corporations.  Staples?  Sears? Ford? NFL, anyone? Just kidding.
The debate about the definition of a planet is useful, the outcome of that debate less so. Regardless of what emerges from this meeting in Rio, someday it will be challenged, and rightly so. As others have stated, science is a process... and sometimes that process is messy.
I completely agree that we discuss these issues.  But, since none of us in our lifetime will every see Pluto surface, nor will we (in our lifetime) visit Pluto or any of these planets, you have to wonder if these scientists have nothing better to do currently.  If these scientist put this much effort into addressing more immediate concerns (polution, overpopullation, destruction of our environment, and possibly global warmth) we might have better solutions.  I am very dissapointed that many of our so called  brilliant minds waste their time doing this trivial task.  It just proves a point further that we are heading down a road that is going nowhere.  If the brightest minds in our world are not going to concentrate on important issues; then we truly are going down the road to our own extinction.  The dinosaurs did not see their demise.  We should just live it up, party, and at the end of the night it will be our children and future offspring who will pick up the check.  Sad
This whole definition thing is really just mental masturbation. Simply look at the etymology. Planet comes from the Greek for "wanderer." This was all before anyone really knew how they moved. Given the apparent looping motion of mars as seen from the earth, the sky was populated only with fixed stars and wanderers. Basically, anything orbiting a star other than a satellite is a wanderer, and even more appropriately, rogue bodies orbiting nothing are wanderers, irrespective of mass and shape.
Why not do away with "planet" altogether? Why not just describe every "object" that orbits a star by its name (if it has one), physical characteristics (spherical, irregular, gaseous, rocky), the details of its orbit (ellipticity, mean distance from the star, inclination to the ecliptic, and etc.) and the presence or absence of moons? This could be used to describe any object orbiting any star. You don't need the word planet to talk about an orbiting body in a meaningful way. It may be convenient but it certainly isn't essential.
I vote that Pluto be reinstated as a planet and that the definition of a planet include "roundness" which implies the somewhat uniform characteristics compatible with gravity induced form, etc. All the other known space objects have irregular shapes.
The 'Meghar Scale of Planetary Mass Classification' is already well established in the literature, and is well adapted to comparing extrasolar planets to solar system planets. I have added the lunar class planets (Moon) and the asteroid planets (Ceres), and further an ice moon class planet to the scale (Enceladus) :

http://www.astronomy-chat.net/astronomy/Planetary_Classification_Systems_739130.html

You can clearly see this scale in action here :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Graph_showing_relative_masses_2.png

and I have blogged this extensively, as it is now widely accepted in the scientific community :

http://cosmic.lifeform.org/?p=166 (offline)

The 'sphericity' issue still applies here as well, and it extends well into, gas giants, super giants, brown dwarfs and stellar masses, measured in Jupiter masses.
The IAAU (International Amateur Astronomical Union) which Boast over half a million members world wide would like to denounce The IAU planet definition as Vague and Arbitrary.

The IAAU voted yesterday to denounce the definition with a unanimous decision, 4-0.
Membership includes any amateur that (1) owns a Telescope or pair of binoculars and
(2) Actually wants to be a member. Acceptance into the Union is free and automatic from The time the individual stats, 'Hey, I want to belong to the IAAU."
AAAAAAAAAH!! Does this mean I have to change the planet song I've known since kindergarden! I think Pluto is a planet. It's just small.
I agree with Brian and Brad; a planet should be in a primary orbit around a star.  If it orbits another object that orbits a star, it is a moon, not a planet.  The definition should be updated to be that precise, otherwise some yahoo will point out that everything in the solar system "orbits" the Sun in one fashion or another, and we'll be off to the debates once again.
Ah! another planet debate. Here is a link to one that is a year old: http://www.earthsky.org/blog/50966/who-else-wants-pluto-to-be-a-planet-again

I am repeating my last post on this topic from the above discussion. "Planet as a round body and *not* a moon" people might find it especially interesting.

---------------------------------------
Feb 17, 2007 02:31 PM #

Thought Shaman says:
Bob you are quite right in that there are two camps.

However, it is not the case that they are talking across each other. One camp has a typical case of what Stephen Colbert terms “truthiness.” They want to hold on to their positions regardless of what the facts are.

I disagree with your implication that it is the traditionalists that are comfortable with ambiguity. In fact, it is those who are willing to consider Pluto et al., to not be planets, who are attempting to look at the facts of the domain, and are comfortable with a not so precise “formulation” for classification (insofar as the “principles” are sound) who are being open.

It is sad that some people do not seem to understand their own principles for classification.

I have pointed out that hydrostatic equilibrium is simply a formulation for an object being sufficiently big, yet people keep complaining about it. The size criterion is a carry over from the traditional way of thinking.

The other point of dominance is also a carry over from the traditional way of thinking. The reason Titan and Ganymede are not considered planets is because Saturn and Jupiter respectively so dominate their orbits that they have captured the two smaller bodies and forced them into orbit around themselves.

Note that “orbits” is a transitive property. If Y orbits X, and if Z orbits Y, Z also orbits X.

Location obiviously matters regardless of size in traditional classification. If Titan and Ganymede were elsewhere in space they would likely be planets even in the traditional view.

Therefore, size and dominance are the two traditional criteria that form the basis for the classification of a planet.

All I ask is that people apply the classifier to the entire domain consistently.

It is inconsistent to reduce the domain to only those bodies that directly orbit the star(s) and then claim there is no concept of dominance. Especially since the concept of dominance was applied to reduce the domain by eliminating the satellites (moons) in the first place.

As far as the view of Pluto’s size being proposed as the cut-off, it is simply classifying by fiat, and is not good science. As I mentioned in a previous post, in science a better classification tends to supplant an earlier one with arbitrary formulations. Further, if we are using this view then we can equally well pick Mercury, or the much smaller Varuna.

The historical argument for Pluto being the cut-off doesn’t hold either simply because it is the historical “inaccuracy” of Pluto that is point people are trying to correct.

I agree with Bob that it may be possible to have two definitions, one colloquial and one scientific. However, this could be a little strange as we’d have to teach them both to the populace. I can imagine a quiz question on the number of planets being answerable both ways causing some mayhem.

The other approach is to simply designate that a planet is a cultural body of interest (from a scientific perspective, the absence of definition of planet will not affect the process of enquiry). In this case, we can simply vote as to which bodies we consider to be planets periodically, say every 5 years or so. Just imagine the fun people can have gathering votes for Pluto or poor little Varuna :).

Bob, I don’t think one has to be an astronomer or a member of the IAU to present views and thoughts. I thank you for yours and thanks to Magenta, Bruce, and others as well.
I agree with the roundness, but I disagree with the orbit. If Mars were to be thrown out of it's orbit and leave the solar system, would it cease being a planet? What if we find an object the size and composition of Earth in orbit around a gas giant? Not a planet? And if the gas giant then ignites to become a small star, the Earth sized moon then becomes a planet? I don't like names that can change when the object named does not. A planet is something big enough to be round, but not so big that it becomes a star. In between we have several sizes of giant planets, both gas and ice, we have terrestrial planets, small planets without atmospheres, and dwarf planets. Things that are almost planets but not quite, or are in dispute might be called planetoids. Planets that orbit other planets are also moons. Planets that have not yet cleared out their orbit are called planets that have not yet cleared out their orbit.
Oh, and one more thing, if you believe Pluto is a planet, then Eris must also be one, since it is bigger than Pluto. So however you think about it, there are not NINE. Ten. Eris would make ten planets. It's what started the whole thing in the first place.
Personally I think that to place this much emphasis on the definition of a planet is rather moot.  Most of the laypeople especially those that were raised in the 80's and 90's are going to call Pluto a planet.  I personally am not going to waste the time to make the distinction that Pluto is a dwarf planet.  If it doesn't affect the well being of man kind we really are just wasting a huge amount of time and energy.
Pluto is a planet! I shall not lie to my grandchildren. Why is it, "O Great OZ of science", that you can discover new planets within our solar system, within the sientific definition of a planet, get all excited about it and then, "BANG" simply discard time accepted parameters of the definition.
Guess this explains THE BIG BANG theory.
Get a life or better yet, don't!
PLANET PLUTO.........FOREVER!
Keep science consistent!  Use the 7-level scientific nomenclature standards they use for biology (..., Genus, Species.) to describe all heavenly bodies.
on a response to LPClark, If we do not define the universe, then we are lost in the universe, ill give you another example, If we dont define LPClark then LPClark doesent exist... LOL. <-Sarcasm. By the way defining planets, stars, possible alien lifeforms as well as earthly animals and diseases has and will continue to help our world and us in everyway for the rest of time. [...] simply by looking at this messege you are judging/defining it, We certainly do not need you to define it for us.
Who's more "self-absorbed:" the "eggheads" who get together to consider informed arguments, or people who insist Pluto is a planet--even though they've never actually seen it nor know much about it--just because they learned in fourth grade that it was?

If it's "stupid" to reconsider old ideas, I guess we'd better get rid of ALL science--come to think of it, there are plenty of people in this country (including its president) who would probably like that.
I don't understand the dynamicists position. If the influence a body causes is part of the reason to call it a planet then shouldn't the influence Pluto has on its one...er I mean 3 moons be sufficient to call it a planet. While we're at it doesn't the definition of a moon mean that it orbits a planet. What do we call Charon and her 2 recently discovered siblings?
I agree with Davis.  Since the IAU has declared themselves keepers of astronomical definitions, let's put the burden of maintaining their definitions directly on their shoulders.  It's up to the scientific community to as a whole to force the IAU to adjust definitions, as needed, so that some kind of consensus can be reached, especially when the IAU decisions are in the minority.  And for those of you who think precisely defining something is a wasted effort, remember, science is about measurements, and accurate measurements can't be made without accurate definitions of what is being measured and how it is being measured.
Planet or not pluto's not going to up and disappear just because we reclassify it.  Quoting the "9 planets" to children certainly won't do them any harm.

Trying to classify bodies in space is always tricky because unlike biology the gross distinction of objects in the cosmos is pretty clearly in 3 catagories:  Things undergoing fusion, Things not undergoing fusion that were not at some point undergoing fusion, Things that were formerly undergoing fusion.  Everything from space dust to Gas Giants to frozen canned monkeys comes under catagory 2.  Besides, when we finally get a really good look at annother solar system are we really going to bicker about how many planets it has or are we going to study every single thing that comes infront of our lenses?
"All of you are so full of yourselves it is amazing you can get from room to room or that two of you can fit in the same room.  We are on a tiny ball spinning in a vast universe. We are microscopic in comparison to the size of the universe, and you have the unmitigated gall to "decide" what should be called a planet?  Your collective egos are astounding and you should all be ashamed of yourselves.  We certainly do not need you to define the universe for us."
LPClark, Englwood Cliffs NJ (Sent Wednesday, February 20, 2008 4:36 PM)

I take the following as an attack on a comment of another.

PLEASE READ: All comments must be approved before appearing in the thread; time and space constraints prevent all comments from appearing. We will only approve comments that are directly related to the blog, use appropriate language and are not attacking the comments of others.

[Alan adds: Yes, it's often a judgment call about what separates permitted debate from an impermissible attack, and sometimes I have to question my own judgment on this. I'm usually less comfortable with comments that go after one person in particular, especially comments directed at the person rather than the information put out by that person ... I'm also very uncomfortable about certain words, such as "morons," etc. I'm more comfortable with comments that address a point of view (e.g., talking about evolution's defenders or Darwin's detractors rather than a specific person, particularly a specific poster). But again, it's a judgment call, and I apologize for any cases in which a person feels unduly attacked.

I thought Pluto was my dog?
I believe if an object is round it should be classifed as a planet, whether or not it is also a moon. To simplify matters though why not just call everything outside the orbit of Mars as either an asteroid or comet, that is if it is predominately rock it's an asteroid, if it's predominately gas or ice it,s a comet.
I agree with the 'gravity determined shape' definition for planets.  As already stated in the blog, it recognizes a dichotomy which appears to be quite fundamental, that between the round objects and the irregulars.  This would provide a useful framework for solar system studies.  For those who don't want to use it, that's ok too.    
For those of you that say Pluto is a planet, then there are millions more just like it in the Kuiper belt and Oort cloud. That being said, it is my belief that the definition of a planet should include 2 things:
1) That it was formed by accretion during the early stage of the solar system.
2) That it orbits the sun along the ecliptic

This would solidify 8 planets in our solar system and disclude and captured objects (one could argue that planets could be captured by a solar system, but it is my belief that those should be classified seperately)

The reason that this is an important topis is that we can move forward with a stable, accepted definition to progress in the area of planetary science.
Problem with this alternative definition is that the number of planets in the solar system would drop to zero! The Earth and just about every planet I can think of is not a perfect sphere - its an oblate spheroid - so how round is round? I don't think that definition solves anything at all!
Larger than the largest moon not only continues to oust Pluto (as any planet definition should), but it also ousts Mercury which is smaller than Ganymede.
I like the definition above that planets should orbit at or near the plane of formation (aka ecliptic plane).  
This keeps comets that have not approached close enough to the sun (like Pluto) out of the mix.
I find it funny how many people ask the question "Who are scientists to define scientific terms?"  Well, ummm, they're scientists.  Scientific terms define their occupation. If anyone is qualified, a scientist or group thereof, should get the nod.
Doctors don't use a public consensus on what they call th next virus.  Why should scientists?

BTW, tradition has never been used to "keep" a name in astronomy.  If it were, The Andromeda Galaxy would still be called Andromeda Nebula...as were the Large and Small Megallanic Clouds or any other galaxy discovered before the 1900's.  
I agree with the decision to add additional categories to the existing definition of planets.  Considering the fact that many of the extra-solar planets discovered have different compositions, densities, and sizes, we cannot just restrict the definition of a planet to a mere "It is round and orbits a star."
I have to admit, I found Mr. Daniel Fischer comments rather insulting and his article to be very biased. I spent a year living in his neck of the woods, and regularly keep in touch with the friends that I made in both Germany and Denmark. Several of them being the american equivalent of Elementary school teachers. When the planet debate came up in 2006, and pluto was demoted to dwarf status many of them said (and still are) teaching that there are 9 planets in the solar system. It is very obviouse to me that Mr. Fischer did not do his homework on this.
And by the way Mr. Fischer, it wasn't just American Scientists who were vocal, it was also Japanese, English, GERMAN, and Canadian. Before you start flapping your gums, or your fingers in this case, get your facts right and actually interview people. I don't appreciate when journalist doesn't get their facts right.
Funny thing is that science tends to be re-written every so often which makes the current theory just one more waiting to be shelved as obsolete. Why can't they do something productive, like, save the planet? They act like they actually were here during the big bang. Doe's to much education make one stupid?
I'd have to agree with a previous poster: instead of "demoting" or "removing" a planet, use a classification system similar to that used on Star Trek.
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Planetary_classification
I think Pluto is a planet, I think Jupiter is a planet. End of story. Why there needs to be a great debate about it is beyond me.
Guys - the solution is so simple. Seeing is believing, right?  So Mr NASA, design a craft to take these armchair space wisecrackers on a fact finding mission to observe these terestial bodies. In the meantime leave the textbooks as they are. By the time they come back (so long as the US Navy doesnt identify them as a falling defunct satellite)it will be 30 years on so who cares?
I don't know much but here is my two cents. Long ago, I learned that there are 108 elements on earth. Now, there are 118 and more are defined everyday. Those latest have funny names Uuq, Uup, Uuh, Uus, Uuo. They me be synthesized or may only be exist for a millioned of a second. So what? We call that science, and progress. More and more knowledges are found everyday. Certainly, God knows the rules and we don't have the capacity yet to know it all. Like two boys in the same household, each one always think he is more right than the other. Let's ask the people who were kids in the early 20th century to ask them if they mind at all when the 9th planet Pluto was found. Convention calls us to believe it's 9. There are more discoveries, certainly for years to come. I like categories better, and leave them wide open. WHen we find another one, put them in that category. Don't be too concern much about number.
Eris should be the 11th planet... (Yes, we should count Ceres as a planet)


Dwarf Planets are Planets too!
How about this.  If it's round and floating in space, it's a planet.  If it's exploding in place, a star.  Lumpy and just an unpleasant place to be, call it an asteroid or whatever.  Just let it go for Pete's sake...there are bigger, better things to do with your minds...
Oh my, we're wading back into this debate again... well I suppose it's inevitable that we will periodically rehash this until a real workable one (i.e. one that will keep working as we find more and more extrasolar bodies and other minor bodies in our system).

I've read practically every sort of idea out there, and some make a lot of sense in some areas but leave gaping voids in others.

The only type I believe that would be able to take account for a variety of scenarios would be one similar to that used in the 'Star Trek' series.

They seem to use the term planet to refer to most things that we would think of as 'round balls', but instead of assigning some long and confusing name to each group, each major type is given a letter category.

Earth is considered a 'class M planet'. Mars and Venus without breathable atmospheres would be tucked into a different class... although if terraformed, their class designation would shift over time to reflect the increased habitability of the world.

Smaller bodies are also assigned categories, but they're not referred to as 'planets'... moon, asteroid and comets have all been shown - and as those are all perfectly good names as is, no need to change.

Obvoiusly even the Star Trek categories were limited to known or theorized types of stellar bodies and smaller objects - although of course we can add in new classes/types of objects as they are discovered.

If we think of 'Planet' with a capital P, then I don't think Pluto fits... our own moon Luna is considerably larger. Even though Pluto currently orbits the sun as an independent object, who really knows how long the 'current' orbit has been stable.

It could be a great joke of cosmic irony, if it was later learned that Pluto didn't even form in our solar system - but that its tiny moon Charon did. This could put us in the odd position of promoting Charon to full planethood and demoting Pluto to being simply a temporary/guest body in our system.

I don't care whether they call Pluto a planet once it's all said and done - however the IAU needs to being the process of setting up a specific series of categories for planets and other bodies; from the smallest to the largest.

Each of those categories also should have subcategories that indicate surface/atmospheric conditions or chemical composition.

With the advances we've see in interferometry (connecting a series of telescopes together to increase imaging power), solar spectroscopy studies (looking for difference in spectrum as planet transits in front of the sun), and with the upcoming satellite based observatories, we will be finding not just 'hot Jupiters' around other worlds soon - but rocky worlds with atmospheres.

It would be nice to have a place to sort them agreed on and ready to go well before we get the inevitable surge of hundreds of newly discovered terrestrial worlds to try to deal with (as far as data goes).
I agree; Pluto should be "grandfathered" in as a planet.  The darn thing has 3 moons ! and in a very orderly system.  It behaves just like a planet.  On this basis, Sedna, Quaoar, and EL61 should also be planets.   Pluto will always be the 9th planet.
 ..Support Pluto's planethood:
http://www.tritonfun.com/custom.em?pid=547283

Oh, and let's not forget Eris in this list, as well
(or should we say, "Xena"...)

If mars were to be pulled into an orbit around Jupiter,would it then be just a moon?
If the moon orbited mercury then would they be like Pluto and Charon?
I think there are many different types of planets and should be listed in different categories.
As they discover more,they will see that there are many different sizes and makeups.
Tradition is fine as long as it isn't a ball and chain around one's leg. The best example I can think of is many people's insistence on use of the English sysem of units (pounds, feet, hectares per fortnight . . . ). This is bad enough in everyday life, but is unacceptable in scientific fields (students in classes I have taught  lose serious points on any work not turned in in metric units). This definition of a planet business is another good example. Here's a simple fact: whatever some people may want to call it, in scientific circles Pluto is not, and is highly unlikely to be, considered I planet. Period.
Also, keep in mind that it makes no sense to call Pluto a planet, and not the rest of the Kuiper Belt objects. Do we really want to have *tens of thousands* of 'planets'?

Ultimately it doesn't matter what is said here and elsewhere. The IAU is GOING to define the term 'planet', and that's the end of it. Doen't matter one whit who likes it or not.
A massive Spherical body orbiting a star whose orbit remains constant and within a mimimal tolerance, and remaining equal distant to the star due to it's gravitational attraction to the star, should be concidered a planet. Size and/or makeup of such a body should not negate it's status unless critically acted upon by a larger massive body altering it's current course.
Pluto and Charon should be reinstated as a double planet, Because it has been proven they both orbit each other. However, That being said if Pluto were brought into the inner part of our solar system it would warm up and grow a tail! Now what kind of behavior is that for a planet? That would just be embarresing


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