ABOUT COSMIC LOG

Quantum fluctuations in space, science, exploration and other cosmic fields... served up regularly by MSNBC.com science editor Alan Boyle since 2002.

Alan Boyle covers the physical sciences, anthropology, technological innovation and space science and exploration for MSNBC.com. He is a winner of the AAAS Science Journalism Award, the NASW Science-in-Society Award and other honors; a contributor to "A Field Guide for Science Writers"; and a member of the board of the Council for the Advancement of Science Writing.

Check out Boyle's biography or send a message to Cosmic Log via cosmiclog@msnbc.com.



Big science's big day

Posted: Saturday, February 16, 2008 8:30 AM by Alan Boyle


Salvatore Di Nolfi / Keystone / AP
An onlooker watches an element of the Compact Muon Solenoid being lowered into
its underground cavern at the Large Hadron Collider on the French-Swiss border.

The most anticipated date in physics is the day the world's biggest particle-smasher, Europe's Large Hadron Collider, reaches full power. That day had been set for last November, but a magnet mishap and other factors forced a delay until this spring. The final piece of one of the collider's mammoth detectors, the Compact Muon Solenoid, was lowered into its underground cavern just last month. And now the big day is likely to come in June or July rather than May.

The fact is that officials at Europe's CERN particle physics lab don't know to the day when the world's biggest physics project will be ready for prime time. However, they do know the day for the big celebration.

CERN's director general, Robert Aymar, is in Boston this week for the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science - and construction progress on the Large Hadron Collider has been one of the big topics on the meeting's agenda.

The multibillion-dollar collider, which was conceived a quarter-century ago and has been in the works for more than a decade, is expected to shed light on mysteries ranging from dark matter and extra cosmic dimensions to the reasons why particles have mass and why matter won out over antimatter.

There's currently no other way to find out the answers to all these deep questions, Aymar said. "Without LHC discovery, we are stuck, and we will not go beyond what we know today," he told reporters. That's why the start-up is so anticipated.

Aymar said commissioning the machine will take months. 

Physics insiders have long known that the collider's proton beams wouldn't be zipping at full blast through the collider's 17-mile-round ring until June or July - based on the construction time lines from CERN.

June was the time frame Aymar had in mind when he was asked about the start-up schedule during a Friday session on large-scale science project. But during a follow-up chat, he pointed out that you can't just press a big red button one day and expect each of the collider's beams to hit full power of 7 trillion electron volts immediately.

The rule of thumb is that 1 trillion electron volts, or 1 TeV, is equivalent to the energy expended by a mosquito in flight - which would make 7 TeV as energetic as, say, a bumblebee. The buzz of a bee may not sound like a lot. But when you consider how many trillions of protons are in that beam, the energy adds up to a bullet train going 100 mph. So it's prudent to start small and build up power gradually.

Aymar said that buildup could still start around May 21 or 22, with tests continuing for weeks after that. His aim is to have the collider conducting scientific experiments this summer.

Of course, that assumes that everything proceeds according to plan between now and then - which is not always the case (see above, "magnet mishap"). And now that sectors of the ring are being cooled down to cryogenic temperatures, any problem that needed fixing would required going through a whole warm-up/cool-down cycle.

"Quantification of the delay is three months," Aymar said - which is a geeky way of saying that a glitch in the final phase of preparations wouldn't hold up things by just a day, but rather three months at a time.

This may be why the big party - the ceremony marking the inauguration of the Large Hadron Collider - has been set for months after the scheduled start-up, on Oct. 21. French President Nicolas Sarkozy and other VIPs (including Energy Secretary Samuel Bodman) are expected to be in attendance.

No matter what happens, that date won't change, Aymar said.

And then what? Physicists have told me the first scientific experiments would probably need a year or so to come to fruition, and it could take five years to answer some of the deep mysteries mentioned above. If the answers are there to be found, that is. There's always a chance that the collider will draw a blank - that physicists won't see anything of what they're expecting to see.

"For many people, that may seem like a disappointment," said Lawrence Krauss, a theoretical physicist at Case Western Reserve University. "From a theoretical perspective, it means that every basic idea we have about the fundamental structure of matter, in some way, is wrong. And there's nothing more exciting than that."

Update for 1 p.m. ET: So how much does all this cost? As with all big-science projects, it depends. CERN says the cost of the accelerator is 4.7 billion Swiss francs ($4.3 billion), and additional CERN contributions to the experiments and project-related computing amount to 1.35 billion Swiss francs ($1.23 billion). But scores of other countries are contributing to the experiments as well, and that could add $3 billion to $5 billion to the total expense. Thus, if you're talking about CERN alone, the machine would cost $5 billion-plus, but if you're talking about the total project, the estimates are in the range of $8 billion to $10 billion.

MAIN PAGE

Email this EMAIL THIS

Comments

It's a very envious position to be in when your experiments have merit, even if there are no results. :) Best wishes to the LHC. How exciting!
I hope this super collider doesn't start an unpredictable chain reaction that turns the earth into the Sun since they are looking into the unknown.
Git 'R Done!  It is interesting that there are still many people willing to pay for "basic" science such as this when there are many other practical demands such as feeding the hungry.  Yet, who knows what these experiments might reveal.  Still, at $8 Billion, the LHC does sounds a bit like the Particle Physicists Full Employment Act.
Amazing, that after all this time we are finally told in simple words the purpose is to understand the mechanisms of existence, matter and anti-matter and possible other dimensions. Till now we have only heard about "particles"
USA losing it's technical edge? Spend more on the WAR and invest less in the US....
I am very excited for all the scientists and for the experiments sbout to take place. I look forward to reading about the results of these experiments for many years to come!!! Please feel free to name a micro black hole after me - Best of Luck!
Oh man I can't wait! I bet you all $10 that the Higgs Boson is nowhere to be found, but that extra dimensions show as plain as day.
Okay.  Can someone PLEASE explain the significance of this event in laymen's terms please??  We are living in a world where hunger, poverty, disease, war, and general ignorance constantly threatens our long-term existence.  How is this 5 Billion dollar device going to improve the living conditions of the inhabitants of this planet????????
The dawn of a new beginning; This will be the engine for scientific results that LHC will continue to deliver for decades to come ! I'm thrilled for the scientists involved with this project.
The most interesting statement in the article is this: "[if the LHC doesn't find what we expect,] it means that every basic idea we have about the fundamental structure of matter, in some way, is wrong. And there's nothing more exciting than that."

How better to describe the difference between science and religion?
I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I am not the dullest either.  I read the article twice and still have no idea of what I just read. You make it sound very exciting, but something that cost 10 Billion should be able to make dinner too, maybe it does.  Please word an article that would allow real people to understand.  Sorry...
Much focus on the cost of the project, but sometimes knowledge doesn't come cheaply.  It's money very well spent in comparison to many government projects whose purpose is to destroy, not construct/learn.
Two films spring to mind - Crack in the World and The Day the Earth Caught Fire. Perhaps Congress will attend the grand opening gala?
I am so excited for this to get started, even though it will be a while until we find out about the Higgs. This has the potential to reinforce our trust in theory, or severely undermine it.
Kudos to the LHC- it WILL be interesting!

This could have been built in the US at Waxahatchie, Texas, except Congress voted down the first $600 meg in funding, years ago- they didn't see the use for it. Wouldn't give them any bribe money, probably.

"Suppose I was talking about an idiot, or a member of Congress....excuse me, I repeat myself."  WILL ROGERS
It's a pity that the US never finished the super-conducting super collider.
Ironically, that money was transfered into the Human Genome project, but before any of the academic researchers got close, Craig Venter's private company sequenced the human genome.
Why couldn't it be built in the US? I am a USA phile. The western states have a lot of open space.
Too bad the politicians here in the US weren't more in tune with the scientific community.  They allowed our own SSC to flounder in the 1980s due to many delays in the approval process (red tape) and using portions of the project to further their own political grandstanding.  This ended up increasing the costs to 3x to 4x what they would have been had they been fully funded and approved at all stages from the beginning.
With the collective steps of many we find ourselves on the threshold of another giant leap for mankind.  While I don't fully understand the physics, I do appreciate the profound insights we'll glean from this endeavor.  I anxiously await the results!
I can hardly wait to be surprised. I got a feeling, this is just the beginning.

A wave and a particle, walking side by side
One said to the other, "Which one of us am I?"
A Neutron walks into a bar ...
and asks the bartender " How much for a beer" and the bartender says, "For you? No charge"
In response to Tony B.:I can't answer your question, and whithout a functional crystal ball, I don't think anyone else can either. I would ask however, How does the purchase of a computer and time spent reading and responding to an article such as this, improve the livin conditions of the inhabitants of this planet?
We do have a neutron collider at Oak Ridge.  We're not totally absent in the world of physics... although the funds were already committed before "W" showed up. http://neutrons.ornl.gov/aboutsns/aboutsns.shtml
Have to agree with the person who questioned the use of spending $8B on this machine when we still can't feed and house the hungry and homeless or cure cancer and AIDS.  It seems like the kind of money would be better spent on the present and the future, rather than trying to figure out scientific mysteries of the past.  Now, if this device will help us solve the energy crisis or some other result benefiting mankind for the future, I'm all for it and wish them good luck.
Something that has NEVER been done, is the size of...well, its BIG, cost billions and needs to be buried deep into the earth....Now thats just scary folks!
Johnathan in Pittsburg and several others asked that the purpose of the LHC be further clarified. I'm not a physicist but rather a medical doctor with a strong interest in physics. I'm thus speaking not as an expert but as a scientist who practices medicine, something that needs translating into "simple" all the time. I think I have an analogy that may help some readers. Imagine you've never seen a car before but do live in a world of trains and buggies. You find a car one day and, without having any really specific tools, want to know what's beneath the windows and paintjob. You maybe can open the doors and peer inside but if you have no key and are still left wondering what it's made of, you might take the primitive route and bash the hood with rocks until it pops open. There you'd see an engine, likely shrouded under a large valve cover, and see nothing further you understand. So you put the car on the tracks of your local train and let a locomotive smash into it. The car will splinter, showering out thousands of parts, but mostly the bigger, most-obvious ones like the wheels, maybe transmission, engine block, etc. You would be clueless about the inner workings of the engine, what valve lifters are, what spark plugs do (your locomotive is diesel so it has none so you have NO idea they convey electrical energy), etc. You are now so curious about the remaining rubble (in this thought experiment maybe you found yourself another car somewhere and could start fresh each time) so you petition the management of the train company to sacrifice two locomotives to smash together, head-on, with the car in the middle. Depending on how big, heavy and fast the locomotives are accelerated to, the resulting blur of bits and parts that flies out of the collision may be spread over a large area and be of smaller and smaller sizes. How would you ever know there are maybe five or seven bolts holding the main engine block together if you didn't smash it hard enough? What might it take for the valve springs or lifters to be liberated, as opposed to lost in the debris? You'd also have to analyze all this stuff quickly or you'd soon have a scene too complex to figure out, or the pieces might rust away, etc. The LHC is like a titanically-large pair of locomotives, so large that maybe the car would be vaporized, but you *do* have scientists and tools that can measure or sense vapors and gases, even if you had never seen a car, and you might figure out that there are explosive hydrocarbons in the center of the car, surrounded by machinery made of steel, aluminum, plastic, etc. Some bright person might theorize the hydrocarbons are a motive force for the car, that the steel contains and shapes these forces, etc. That's about where things are with the Large Hadron Collider, which will smash subatomic particles with much greater electrical energy than ever before possible. It's still not an *elegant* way of figuring out what stuff is made of; we can dissect bodies with sharp, small instruments and figure out SOME of what's going on, but who yet has the instruments to tweeze apart subatomic particles? The best they can do in this era is smash them apart, see what flies out, analyze the debris according to how the bits fly out, their course, how they possibly decay, etc. Over decades they might figure out the car in the thought experiment was a vehicle for 1 to 6 people operated by a driver inside the vehicle. If a shred of an integrated circuit is found, though, you'd better have some very bright people around to figure out what it does if you've never seen one before. I hope this helps, as basic as it (and my level in physics) is. Read lots more on wikipedia.org or Scientific American's website, etc. The LHC won't feed the starving anytime soon, but if it reveals unseen dimensions that someday we can transport food through 200 years from now, who knows? Basic science is ALWAYS important and the poor, sick and starving will ALWAYS be with us, no matter how much resource we divert to their cause.
Is there a website that explains what this thing does in laymens terms? Or have all these PHDs spend 20 years in school and they still don't know how to write a letter in plain english that the average adult or even college grad can understand.
The US spent $700 billion in Iraq and chose not to spend 10 billion on the super collider. When will we learn to put our money towards positive productive things like education and science rather than wars that only lead to retaliation at some future date?
is the lhc shaped like calabi-yao
To Tony B in Baltimore and to James Bordonaro: Tony and Jim, all the aggregated money in the world will not alone resolve the problems you list. To be certain, the world's gross domestic product might make a small dent in the serious issues enumerated, but as long as there the world experiences overbreeding, overpopulation, catastrophic climatic changes, arrogance, greed, totalitarianism,  political despotism, spontaneously mutating bacterial and viral infections, maldistribution of goods and services, and countless other factors beyond mere mortal control, people are going to suffer and die.  Humans, as biological entities, are subject to these idiosyncracies, and it is only by good providence that you have not yet joined the ranks of the downtrodden. So why not invest a few billion of pocket change in the Large Hadron Collider. Facetiously, it might also make one helluva oven in preparing mega tons of food for the world's masses. Brian Peterson (above) is quite correct that the pseudo-illuminati known as the U.S. Congress were not very "dis-CERN-ing" when rejecting the project near Waxahatchie, TX several years ago. Pathetic earthlings!
I hope this super collider doesn't start an unpredictable chain reaction that turns the earth into the Sun since they are looking into the unknown. The dawn of a new beginning; Git 'R Done! Why couldn't it be built in the US? but something that cost 10 Billion has the potential to destroy a lot of open space.
'Why are we wasting money on the mysteries of the universe instead of ending war, hunger, poverty, or disease,' you ask? Because five, ten, or even twenty billion dollars won't solve those problems as fast or as permanently as a some hard thought and hard work could.
Super science? Easy.
World peace? Not so much.
To those that don't understand the why of spending billions on science and experiments; it cost the equivalent of the 10 billion and much longer to find out how to make fire, and then there is the wheel of course.  Those people asked the same question....  You never know where a little extra knowledge might lead.
CERN, men to Mars, Deep Space Exploration, all wonderfully interesting and exciting things. All terribly expensive as well. Yet we cant afford to address the pressing issues here on earth ? STOP all of this and redirect the talent and money to combating pollution, warming, health and the other serious issues that affect us all here on good old Earth !!!!!!!!!!!
This has been an ongoing project for years and it's nice to see it coming to fruition. I'm glad it was an international effort and not just a "US" thing. As far as spending the money wisely...give Man a fish, he eats for a day, teach Man the secrets of the universe and the possibilities are limitless...I hope.
Jonathan in PA--
As best I understand it, they are going to shoot protons around this ring in opposite directions at nearly the speed of light. When they hit each other, the scientists think it will simulate the Big Bang and provide info about the origins of the universe, as well as give insight into weird physics concepts like Dark Matter and some miniscule theoretical particle called the Higgs boson.  They also hope to learn whether there are more than 4 dimensions (3 spatial dimensions plus time). Some of Einstein's theories  are sort of incompatible with each other-- his theories on gravity have separate rules from his theories on quantum mechanics.  He wasn't able to make rules that applied to everything.  His successors have tried to find a unifying "theory of everything", but as I understand it, so far their answers only work if there are 10 or 11 dimensions instead of four.  So one thing they are hoping is that the particle collider will smash protons hard enough to create subatomic particles that have momentum in these extra dimensions that they can measure.  They also expect to create black holes (really tiny ones, very briefly), which may lead to other insights.
Ultimately they don't really know what they will learn, since this has never been possible before.
TO thos of you that say that the money could be used to feed the poor. First of all, poor countries are not poor because they have no money, but because politicians in these countries stop the money from reaching to the poor. Even if those 10 nillion were to be sent to africa, they would end up in the hands of militia men, who would buy guns and kill each other.
Sadly, we are humans, and we just care about knowledge and destruction......
I personally think that knowledge is way more valuable than human life, after all....Knowledge stays, but humans die....

and it is a very nice toy.
The problem with this sort of experimentation is that you keep having to increase the energy by another order of magnitude to learn anything. They better find what they're looking for, because no one will be able afford the next collider. This is really the endgame of a way of pursuit theoretical physics that has been in vogue through most of the 20th century. What is needed from here on out is less money, and more intelligence on the part of theoretical physicists. As the "fundamental" partical count explodes, I think we're in something like the situation of Ptolemaic cosmologists who kept adding more and more epicycles. A more fundamental and philosophically sound conception is required than to say that everything is made of particles (or waves for that matter).
Understanding the fundamental laws of the Universe allows us to more fully manipulate our world.  For example, without Maxwell's equations (discovered in the 1850s) which describe electricity and magnetism, modern electronic devices could not exist.  Though modern technology would be inconceivable to people of Maxwell’s era, retrospectively it would be impossible to deny the social and economic importance of the understanding of this physics.  Modern business, medicine, agriculture and general quality of life would be greatly diminished without this understanding.  The billions of dollars invested in great scientific projects such as the LHC have immense importance to humanity as a whole, even if it takes time for benefits to come to fruition.  By the way, I hope they don't find the Higgs Boson; What an ugly mess of a theory!
I've been meaning to get back to Tony's comment, but as usual, some smart people have already weighed in. I particularly like Dr. Dave's analogy to smashing cars. What these physicists do is smash tiny bits of matter together and try to figure out what they're made of by sorting through the pieces that come off and tracing them back to their sources.

Here's another good analogy from a New York Times article on the LHC:

"Physicists, you see, learn about the subatomic world by smashing things together and then looking at the debris. Imagine a midair collision between two watermelons; it would make quite a mess, but nothing very interesting would result. Suppose, though, you get two protons to collide head-on. If they are moving fast enough, the energy of their collision, converted into mass à la Einstein’s E=mc2, will produce a shower of new particles. (It would be as if colliding watermelons splattered into a shower of pineapples, blueberries, mangoes and more exotic fruits.) Some of these particles will already be familiar to physicists. Others, though never before observed, might well have been hypothesized by one of the speculative theories that physicists busy themselves devising, hence giving us reason to think that a theory in question is true. Still others might come as a complete surprise, eliciting an amazed cry of "Who ordered that?'"

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/14/
magazine/14supercollider.t.html?
ex=1326430800&en=715cc5e0c520abf3
&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss


"Who ordered that," by the way, is what physicist Isidor Rabi is said to have exclaimed when he found out about the existence of the muon, a particle that is like a heavier version of the electron.

But it's not just about particles ... as commenters have said above. Although the physicists themselves are focusing on the particles right now, usually there are wonderful things that come out of new discoveries in physics, particularly the surprising ones. The typical examples are nuclear power, which arose from Einstein's special relativity; GPS systems, which couldn't function without recognizing the effects of special as well as general relativity; microwave ovens and the like, which followed up on Einstein's insights into the quantum nature of light, etc. A couple of medical innovations that depend directly on particle physics are PET scans, which actually depend on antimatter interaction; and anticancer therapies that rely on proton beams somewhat like the ones at LHC (but not 7 trillion electron volts).

It is very plausible that the discoveries made at the LHC (or other colliders) could lead to the development of new power sources - perhaps fusion or perhaps something more exotic. Or they could lead to new types of probes, just as scientists now use muon detectors to create X-ray-type imagery of ancient structures. Who ordered that?

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/10/22/423358.aspx

But Jeff's comments about the old Ptolemaic system are also highly relevant. In the old days, people calculated the movements of the planets by putting Earth at the center and trying to figure out all sorts of complex epicycles for the planets. It was a very clunky system, but it worked. It just so happened that the Copernican system was much more elegant, and did a better job of explaining how things work. That opened the way for Newton, Kepler, orbital mechanics, moonshots and ... well, you know the rest.

Now we have a theory called the Standard Model that explains the structure of things at the smallest scale. It's clunky, but it works. Sort of. There are gaps and missing pieces, and there could well be a more elegant, more powerful explanation waiting to be found. That could open the way to heaven knows what. New methods of interstellar travel?

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/bpp/

The discovery of new realms just next to our own that we never knew existed?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13070896/page/2/

Time travel?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17544598/

OK, maybe not. But that's what kind of brings out the kid (or the caveman) in us, and stimulates our imagination ... just as the imagination of past generations was stimulated by the stars.

One of the things that the scientists at today's press conference said was that we seem to be just on the edge of what society will tolerate in terms of spending on big science projects. About $5 billion to $10 billion every 10 to 20 years. To some extent, projects like the international space station and the LHC are the Great Pyramids or great cathedrals of our era. I suppose there were some Egyptians who grumbled about the pyramids as well (definitely the slave laborers!). We can only hope the investments that free societies put into their grand projects will result in payoffs at least as great: in practical applications as well as the pure, marvelous understanding of what we are made of, where we came from and where we stand in the cosmos.
My basic guess at why so much money is spent to understand how the basic universal elements work is to learn how to control them. The pure scientists involved are probably just curious but the investors definitely would like a return on their investment, eventually. Imagine the ability to create another inhabitable world orbiting the sun? Or the ability to utterly annihilate an enemy while leaving all the structures intact? Or simply create gold or even people out of dust? It's sounds a little like playing God or eating some forbidden fruit of knowledge. You never know completely the consequences of fooling with such powerful forces. Hopefully the results will lead to a discovery as beneficial as penicillin or simply a better understanding of how the universe was created. At worst as one poster said it could create an uncontrollable event or a "slate cleaner." Unfortunately mankind at the current rate is overwhelming our environment and desperately needs a new clean source of energy and eventually the ability to colonate. History tells us that civilizations climax to a zenith then extinguish themselves due to lack of control, so modern science has no real choice but to take chances for the future of humanity or risk being thrown back to a new "dark ages." Where of course the population will be dramatically reduced and  over several generations people will have to learn about technology again. Considering that by then the gene pool hasn't been exhausted, then we're talking about a long time past our grandkids, grandkids.
Money spent on research is not just thrown into a hole and buried.  It pays salaries, supports families, and stimulates the economy.  The economic ripple effect benefits a lot of people.  Supplies and materials going into a project like this keep a lot of people working.

In addition, the comments about looking for a cure for cancer instead?  Stop ingesting artificial foods and chemicals into your body.  Stop using chemicals in your yards.  The toxins in our environment cause cancer; it's no great mystery
To those that say that its a waste of money: Well, there are a lot of ways to tackle this, but let me say this. When Einstein developed General Relativity, there was no application for it. Great time, effort and money was spent on verifying it. But now, almost a hundred years latter, our GPS system would not work without it. While I don't have the numbers in front of me, I'm sure this system has already made tens billions of dollars in revenue and hundreds of new technologies. I'm quite confident it has repaid the money spent on it many many times over. That's why we need these projects. They will not benefit you or me directly. We do them to help our grandchildren.
An excellent popular novel on the subject is "Blasphemy" by Douglas Preston.  It's a very easy read, entertaining while it makes you think.
This has been a interesting thread to read. Not so much about the super collider but how people really differ on varying topics without understanding the broader scope, just the surface level and in this case money. People need to understand that everything in life that we know of is about human discovery. Without our sense of discovery, what would we be? What if it were possible that a result of the experiments find new elements that could be repeated. In 10,20,30....50 years what if this could become a infinite source of enery which would eliminate dependence on electricity and fossil fuels? Can you imagine in the year 2008 we rely on fossils to fuel our world????? The one thing I don't understand with some people's comments is that we are talking about a tiny drop in the bucket of what has been spent on AIDS, hunger, and war in the past 100 years. Taking 10 billion dollars and dropping it into the hands of warlords around the world in a futile attempt to stop world hunger is not the answer. Taking 10 billion to fight global warming will not resolve it, dent it, crease it, stop it. You would probably have just enough money to do worldwide advertisements on tv daily for say three months. Take this money to heal the world oceans is not the answer since you would have to pay companies to stop poluting it which collectively they would rather make more than hundreds X 10 billion than clean it up. We spend collectively so much money in our lives, it we just stopped using paper towels for a year, we would have 10 billion. So what should we do? Take the 10 billion and invest it in our future for the HOPE that we can make the greatest discoveries of our existence in our life time or that of future generations. What if we discovered a new power source that could end carbon emissions? Would that be worth 10 billion some day?
everyone keeps talking about feeding the poor and helping those in need... all of that is great and we spend an enormous amount of monies to do this... but the bigger picture here is... with all the scientists working on this project and the fact that you just can't stop dead standstill if something goes wrong.  something really really really bad could go wrong with this... like taking out half of Europe if an explosion occurs even though this thing is buried deep underground.  you are still talking about multi megaton explosive possibilities and the real possibility of taking out over half or europe and the people living there if a bad chain reaction happens.  that is millions of lives and a large part of land and water sources that would then be ever eternity unusable for all.
I am constantly amused by people who always bring up the poor and hungry when they see big money going to something they don't understand. Believe me - there are many more billions of dollars in the world to help those individual if the will is there.

Please understand that everything you do and everything you touch or use is the result of a scientific experiment sometime in the past. I'm sure that the people of Ben Frankin's time thought "What an idiot, wasting his time with that thing called electricity". These scientist are pushing the boundaries of our understanding of physics and particles. What comes out of that will without a doubt be immensely important to future advancements. The taming of that electron beam many years ago is why you can sit in front of that big plasma/lcd screen today and enjoy the Super Bowl and World Series.

The fact that you don't understand the purpose is more a statement that you need to educate yourself rather than the project being worthless.
Despite my one lengthy post above, I feel it necessary to respond to "Concerned" (post of Sunday, Feb. 17, 10:28 a.m.) about his (or her) risk of "taking out half of Europe" if something goes wrong with the LHC. I read just the other day that the 7 TEV (trillion electron volts) equivalent is roughly that of a large truck traveling about 100 mph. (It might have been a train, but that's the general vicinity.) So the worst that could happen is a large, messy, hugely-expensive CONVENTIONAL explosion wrecking a chunk of the collider. This would be a huge shame but remember it took many passenger plane crashes in the early years (especially the deHavilland Comet, the first passenger jet) before flying became as safe and routine (though miserable these days) as it is now. Many early engineering feats failed and we learned from most of those mistakes (the brittle metal of the Titanic comes to mind). There was talk before the first atomic test in 1945 that igniting the atmosphere might even happen (fusion weapons that came later do actually ionize the atmosphere into hydrogen and oxygen ions, but this obviously isn't a sustainable reaction or I wouldn't be here to type this) and there IS the possibility with the LHC of producing "mini black holes", but these, if they are formed, are likely to be a gold mine of data as black holes don't voraciously swallow everything around them as Disney would have you believe. So the main risk here is of damage to an extremely-expensive miles-wide machine. The risk of NOT EXPLORING AND FUNDING SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH is what would truly be the death of humanity. For the price of the Iraq war we could have a colony on the moon or Mars by now.
No, no, no.  These are protons, neutrons, and electrons we're talking about.  No "taking out half of Europe."  Won't happen.  No "turn the Earth into the sun."  Won't happen.  Look.  Do the math.  Take the mass of two protons, multiply them by the speed of light, and you get an energy amount in Joules (a small energy value).  There won't be enough energy produced to do either thing.  As far as "spending money on the poor," we desperately need to understand that advancement is our only hope.  Redistribute the world's wealth and everyone becomes poor and resource-starved (especially with the undeveloped world's prodigious breeding).  We need space and science programs to solve that problem . . . but that doesn't stop the naysayers, because they either can't or won't do the math.  Again:  do the math.  If you can't, just listen, okay?  We don't need any more wild internet rumors based on supposition.
Thank you Allen, the fruit example was FINALLY a description and explanation, I could understand!
However, as I "Detroit" and "Concerened" (among others)referenced to above, PLEASE, address the flip side of this issue.  Can they (the Scientist/Physicist's) ASSURE US...THE WORLD...That NOTHING can go wrong? As I happen to Love Europe!!
I will admit to my own Scientific ignorance with only a humble Bachelors of Science.
For the Scientist in me, this is MOST EXCITING!
BUT.. folks, I STILL think its SCARY!
To Wayne McCoy..... So Eloquently Put! Your post ROCKED!


SEND A COMMENT

PLEASE READ: All comments must be approved before appearing in the thread; time and space constraints prevent all comments from appearing. We will only approve comments that are directly related to the blog, use appropriate language and are not attacking the comments of others.

Message (please, no HTML tags. Web addresses will be hyperlinked):

TRACKBACKS

Trackbacks are links to weblogs that reference this post. Like comments, trackbacks do not appear until approved by us. The trackback URL for this post is: http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/trackback.aspx?PostID=671015

Latest Tech & Science News

Syndicate This Site

Add Cosmic Log to your news reader:
live.com xml
myyahoo msn
bloglines newsgator
google