ABOUT COSMIC LOG

Quantum fluctuations in space, science, exploration and other cosmic fields... served up regularly by MSNBC.com science editor Alan Boyle since 2002.

Alan Boyle covers the physical sciences, anthropology, technological innovation and space science and exploration for MSNBC.com. He is a winner of the AAAS Science Journalism Award, the NASW Science-in-Society Award and other honors; a contributor to "A Field Guide for Science Writers"; and a member of the board of the Council for the Advancement of Science Writing.

Check out Boyle's biography or send a message to Cosmic Log via cosmiclog@msnbc.com.



Backward research goes forward

Posted: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 8:41 PM by Alan Boyle

University of Washington physicist (and science-fiction author) John Cramer is moving forward with his experiment in backward causality, thanks in part to tens of thousands of dollars in contributions sent in by his fans. Although Cramer emphasizes that his lab is looking at “nonlocal quantum communication” rather than backward time travel per se, the gadgetry he’s assembling could settle a controversy surrounding a seemingly faster-than-light effect that Albert Einstein thought was downright spooky.

Boiled down to its basics, the experiment involves splitting laser light into two beams, so that characteristics of one beam are reflected in the other beam as well. That's an example of what physicists call quantum entanglement. Specifically, Cramer has been planning to fiddle with one of the entangled laser beams such that it takes on the property of waves or particles. If one beam behaves like particles, the entangled photons of light in the other beam should behave like particles, too.

So what happens when the beams go their separate ways, and you conduct a wave-vs.-particle measurement on one beam? When someone else checks the other beam, the same measurement should yield the same result. In fact, you could visualize using the wave-vs.-particle toggle as a means for communicating information, sort of like Morse code. Theoretically, you could check one beam to receive a message instantaneously from whoever is fiddling with the other beam - even if you're separated from the receiver by millions of light-years.

That's what Einstein considered "spooky action at a distance." Such an effect could send information faster than light beams could travel, running counter to special relativity - and thus Einstein thought the effect was impossible to achieve. However, the evidence is mounting that quantum entanglement actually happens.

Cramer planned to start out by testing this kind of communication through quantum entanglement - that's the "nonlocal communication" part of the experiment. If that worked, Cramer would go even further: He would send one of the entangled beams (call it Signal A) through a circuitous detour - say, a few miles of fiber-optic cable - then fiddle with it when it came out of the cable. If the principles behind nonlocal communication held true, the evidence of that fiddling should be detected at a corresponding place in the other entangled beam (call it Signal B).

Now brace yourself for the backward-causality part: Because Signal B followed a shorter route to its detector, the fiddling in Signal A could theoretically show up in Signal B before Cramer actually fiddles with Signal A. It would be as if Cramer's actions had an effect that worked backward in time.

If Cramer detected that effect, the findings would raise the kinds of paradoxes you might see in science-fiction novels or "The Twilight Zone." What if you detected a signal from the future, but then decided not to send the signal? (That's called the "bilking paradox"). What if you received the text of a best-selling manuscript from yourself in the future, had it published, then saved a copy so you could send it to yourself in the past? (Cramer calls that the "immaculate conception paradox.")

"Perhaps the fact that there are such paradoxes is nature's way of telling us that our experiment isn't going to work," Cramer said.

Nevertheless, Cramer is anxious to find out whether it might work - and if not, why not. He suggested the framework for the experiment a year ago, and no one could come up with a reason why it should fail. Except for the money problem. ...

For months, Cramer struggled to find the funding he needed to buy the equipment for the experiment, to no avail. Then an article about his plight came out in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer - and within weeks, thousands of dollars flowed in from foundations and private donors who, for one reason or another, wanted to find out what kind of answers Cramer could come up with.

Cramer said the fund now amounts to $40,000, and now that he's back from a tour of duty at the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider, he's moving forward with the laser experiment. "If that laser holds out, then I think we're in pretty good shape," he told me today.

He's hoping to complete the experiment by September, when the equipment he's using will have to be moved someplace else to make room for remodeling. "It would be very nice if we could finish up by the 15th of September, but I don't know if we'll be able to do that or not," he said.

Cramer is grateful for all the donations, but he admitted that he's "a little uncomfortable" about the way things have gone so far. Usually, physicists work in obscurity, get some funding, conduct an experiment, publish the results - and only then does the publicity come, if the results are spectacular enough. The way Cramer sees it, there's been a heck of a lot of publicity already about an experiment that has yet to be done.

"We seem to be doing it sort of backwards, in a sense," he said. Then, realizing that he's been talking about backward causality, he added with a chuckle that "it may be relevant to the experiment we're trying to do."

Cramer, who is the author of two science-fiction novels and a regular columnist for Analog magazine, said the experiment represents "a rare opportunity to push the envelope of quantum mechanics." No matter how it turns out, the results will be put to good use, he said.

"If this experiment we're doing works, then I will follow up and push it as hard as possible. And if it doesn't work, I will write a science-fiction novel where it does work," he said. "It's a win-win situation."

Feel free to add your thoughts about backward causality and time travel in the comments section below, or visit our discussion board. And if you've already come up with a solution for backward time travel, fill me in on the secret ... yesterday.

Update for 8:52 p.m. ET Jan. 9, 2008: Here's an example of future developments affecting past postings: It turns out that Cramer was given more time to do his backward-time experiment, and as of early January he was still setting up the apparatus.

MAIN PAGE

Email this EMAIL THIS

Comments

I think the experiment will fail.
Signal B will show whatever the state signal A has at the time of signal B's detection (i.e. before fiddling with signal A).
"Now brace yourself for the backward-causality part: Because Signal B followed a shorter route to its detector, the fiddling in Signal A could theoretically show up in Signal B before Cramer actually fiddles with Signal A. It would be as if Cramer's actions had an effect that worked backward in time."

Won't work. The act of detecting the state of Signal B will force it to decide upon it's state, thus locking signal A to do the same. You can't just say you are 'really' detecting A first and the detection you previously did on B miraculously fit with A. That is like having the audience member show his card and THEN the magician picks the same one out of his deck--not really all that impressive.

cool article
posted 7-25-08
"Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow creeps in this petty pace to the last syllable of recorded time ..." Hey! How did Shakespeare know the last syllable was recorded? Did he time travel to the ultimate future and then backwards cause himself to write those words? A science-minded English major wants to know.
"Timescape" by Gregory Benford
Make a Time Machine! (My cousin Phoobia is the one who discovered how to do this)

You'll need:

   * A large box
   * Zinc foil
   * Electronic stuff, with dials and switches
   * A clock

Select a box large enough for you and your time-travelling supplies. Cut a door in one side. Cover it completely, inside and out, with zinc foil. Put your electronics inside the time machine, and connect them to the interior layer of zinc foil. Don't worry too much about wiring diagrams - the design is a robust one, and will work just as well with the electronics in almost any configuration. Connect your clock to the electonics with some wire. Now you have a time machine.

To use it, sit inside and close the door. Now wind the clock, and turn on the electronic stuff. The clock will show your progress into the future. When you've gone far enough, just open the door and exit the Time Machine.

CAUTION: As presently designed, the Phoobia Time Machine can only be used to travel forward in time. Due to this limitation, you should not travel any great distance into the future, since there is currently no way to return. It is hoped that further research will overcome this limitation, as well as enabling the machine to travel faster through time.
Hi, Alan  --  I'm writing this message before any other email is posted.  That doesn't make it time-travelin' even if it shows up on the board first.

Anyway, I wonder why a laser beam is required to begin with? Why won't ordinary light do, since it can be reflected and split into two beams too?  Why not try three beams and see if an incoherence shows up on one of them or two of them?  If your 'fiddling' with the Beam A shows up on Beam B first (that is, backwards in time) could you not forego that fiddling and negate the result on Beam B? Or would that action result in giving the universe the hiccups? the hiccups? the hiccups?
I laughed a little when i read this.  I couldnt help thinking maybe this is "Subspace" communication spoken of so much on Star Trek.
Time travel films and books are my favorites, especially when the author doesn't rely on previous works' "rules of time travel."  It's the unique paradoxes that are exciting. Never thought anyone would actually make a breakthrough in my lifetime.  Good luck.
Hi, Alan  --  I'm writing this message before any other email is posted.  That doesn't make it time-travelin' even if it shows up on the board first.

Anyway, I wonder why a laser beam is required to begin with? Why won't ordinary light do, since it can be reflected and split into two beams too?  Why not try three beams and see if an incoherence shows up on one of them or two of them?  If your 'fiddling' with the Beam A shows up on Beam B first (that is, backwards in time) could you not forego that fiddling and negate the result on Beam B? Or would that action result in giving the universe the hiccups? the hiccups? the hiccups?








to reply to the aformentioned thought, i think that the same message would show up in beam b and theoretical beam c as long as it is a controlled experiment...but given the paradoxical parameters of use in nature.....anyting is likely to happen.
"...creeps in this petty pace from day to day..." invokes an ordered progression - not reversing upon itself.  "the last syllable of recorded time" would be, of course, the most recent.
I wrote this two days from now.
Seems to me to be a question of an "Uncertain Moment".
Causality in time?! Its like thinking of the future while remembering the past. It is all done in the "Now"!
I do think the concept "Now" is the most interesting.
Just how long is Now? How short?
It is like the first three dimensions, you have them, but you cannot take them with you! Time is also a dimension, not a clock!
There is really no past to go to, and the future is approached one uncertain moment to another, short of like Plank's Constant!
It's 'logical' to predict that the experiment will fail.  It defies all 'logic' and common sense.  But, as a boomer who tries to keep an open mind, I'm beginning to sense that anything is possible in this weirdness we call our universe.  Logic is a human concept.  It works for us at this time and on this planet; but, that by no means insures that our ideas of cause and effect prevail throughout the cosmos. If we ever visit other galaxies it won't be in little tin tubes called rocket ships.  We will probably be using some quantum phenomenon like entanglement or its kin to span the vast distances impossible to do in our plodding space craft.  So get ready.  Anything is possible.    
Hasn't the falsification of Bell's inequality already settled this issue?
Classic sci-fi story of the 50's - man invents time machine, travels to future, picks up rock, takes rock back.  Scientist takes chip off rock, puts rock in glass case in time travel museum (where time traveller picked it up).  Does the rock have a chip when he picked it up?
Can we send a message back to October 2003 telling Steve Bartman to stay away from that foul ball?
Haven't others already performed this experiment?

I remember reading about the same effect and same experiment in Discover magazine, maybe as long ago as the early 1990s or late 1980s.  Big picture of Einstein looking surprised (or maybe w/ his tongue out?) on the cover page if I recall.  It struck me as important enough that I saved the issue.

In about 1996 I thought of using a split laser to allow the internal parts of a computer to communicate with each other in a superluminal way, instantaneously.  I decided too much time would be lost converting the electronic signals to light and back again for the idea to be of much (if any) utility.

In any eveny, it was the recollection of the article from Discover that gave me the idea about 11 years ago, so how excited should we be about this experiment now?  Surely this isn't the first time the experiment has been conducted!
Wow, thinking about the possibilities could give you brain lock.  It would be interesting to find out if the fiber optic circuit to delay the first half-beam could be compared to a series of straight line optical circuits and prisms to eliminate or evaluate beam "bending" from the delay.
The comment by Crosgrove above seems correct.

Wouldn't the relative time of the light beams also need to be adjusted? Not just the time when you measure the adjustment.

If you could slow the speed of beam A then change its state you could perform the similar through time communication experiment by measuring when the change occurred to beam B - instantaneously relative to beam B's time or instantaneously relative to beam A's time. Would obviously need multiple experiments.
Found it!  

Freeman, David H. (November 1990) "Weird Science" _Discover Magazine_

Header - "If you've grown comfortable with particles being in two places at once, dissolving into waves when no one is looking, and communicating faster than the speed of light, then these latest experiments in quantum mechanics won't bother you at all."
Didn't Isaac Asimov write a short story about a substance that was so soluble it would dissolve BEFORE water touched it.  I recall that nature made SURE of causality.
I'm not willing to completely write off this hypothesis, but the main problem I see is that the instrumentation needed to measure the starting and ending conditions is not sensitive enough to accurately record the data.  In the example given, a few miles of fiber optic cable probably wouldn't provide enough latency to make a huge enough difference in the experiment; you'd probably need a few hundred miles of cable before the test could be consistently repeatable and verifiable.

My feeling is that, instead of reverse causality, what is being observed is probably an offshoot of J.S. Bell's theorem.
The use of a laser instead of ordinary light as the source is probably necessary because everyday light is composed of many frequencies whereas LASER generated light is in a narrowly defined portion of the spectrum.

I disagree with Mr. Cosgrove's earlier comment because there is no detail on the method of "detecting" John Cramer plans to use.  The Photons comprising Signal B may be observed through a small portion of them being scattered at the detector (a visual residual), by the detector itself (such as a photovoltaic panel), or by another "passive" means.

An homage to Erwin Schrodinger's theories is admirable but may not be applicable given the more recent development of lasers and any work after 1956.

The idea that two parallel photons of light could also be non-directly connected by an invisible link needs to be considered as possible.  If Photons are connected through links radiating spherically through the "dimension" of time it will certainly be difficult to prove.

Keep in mind the speed of light slows depending on density of the medium it is passing through so John Cramer may delay the Signal B photo by passing it through a medium with aligned molecules and making observations AFTER it impacts the detector.  If the Signal B photon has the characteristics of the affected Signal A photon, a link between the two is proven.
I always enjoy your articles. I have a question, though. Wouldn't the detectors have to be the same time from the split to notice the same measurement, independent of where the two beams were physically loacted some time interval x away from the split? Per the example beam A takes longer to travel through the circuitous route, so measuring it after it exits the cable is too late. Don't the two beams need to be measured at let's say 2 millisec after the split no matter where they're located in space to get the same measurement? Educate me, please.
Is it possible to set the experiment up to fail to prove/disprove the theory.

Since the theory is based on the assumption that manipulating the longer side of the split Laser beam (A) will possibly cause a reaction on the shorter side of the split laser beam "before" it is actually manipulated.  Can you set the equipment up that will do the following:

1,  Equipment is set to give off a signal when the manipulation is detected from Beam B  ( I am thinking of an electrical device that is built that will generate a signal that is connected to the equipment attached to Beam A.    As the equipment is engaged to manipulate Beam A  if an "occurance" on Beam B is felt the equipment is shut off and effectively stopping the signal from being sent in the first place.

If you can stop the manipulation before it happens, would that not be a paradox in a paradox?

Quantum mechanics opens the door for "backwards casuality", where we can theorize about seeing the effect "before" the cause, but I think on the quantum scale of energies, the ability to "bend" time per se is on a much more grand scale.
kcul doog
The experiment will work because of the higher-dimensional nature of space-time revealed by string theory.  There are always (at least) two distances between any two events - one that in non-relativistic terms is perceived as the macro-dimensional route, and one which can be stated in terms of the coiled up "micro" dimensions.  When a distance is great in the macro dimensions, it is (exceedingly) small in the micro, and vice-versa.  Learning to exploit this distance duality is the key to faster-than-light communication.

That's how I'd explain it if I were a science fiction writer.
It will have going to is working.

Damn. Language is going to has gotten get complicated, quickly.
The basic hypothesis is correct. Information can propogate backwards along the time-line, but the result is not detectable until it has occurred in "real time." Thus, as in the Aspect experiment, you can detect and instantaneous state change, but you cannot detect a state change before it occurs.

My biggest criticism of the analysis of Aspect and the Bell Theorem is that it never took the fourth dimension into account. Cramer at least is thinking along those lines. But the B before A test will not work.
Awesome
I am reminded of one of my all time favorite movies, Space Balls.....

Dark Helmet: What the hell am I looking at? When does this happen in the movie?
Colonel Sandurz: Now. You're looking at now sir. Everything that happens now, is happening now.
Dark Helmet: What happened to then?
Colonel Sandurz: We passed then.
Dark Helmet: When?
Colonel Sandurz: Just now. We're at now, now.
Dark Helmet: Go back to then!
Colonel Sandurz: When?
Dark Helmet: Now.
Colonel Sandurz: Now?
Dark Helmet: Now!
Colonel Sandurz: I can't.
Dark Helmet: Why?
Colonel Sandurz: We missed it.
Dark Helmet: When?
Colonel Sandurz: Just now.
Dark Helmet: When will then be now?
Colonel Sandurz: Soon.
That's the thing with the observable universe.
Until we observe something, we don't really know it exists.
Just because we observe it, doesn't necessarily mean we understand it.
I'll wait to see the test results.
Whatever they are, it is/will be fascinating.
If you have two entangled particles going in opposite directions, affecting one affects the other -- but you can't communicate in time. It turns out the uncertainties all line up such that without a signal being sent along a time-like interval (i.e. normally), you can't tell anything from the experiment.

I'm betting that when the analysis is finally done, we'll find that we can only know what the effect on the past particle was based on something we learn about the present particle when we do the measurement. Information gets sent back in time, but you won't know what it means until the "future" arrives. Thus, there's no way to create a paradox and yet the quantum mechanics will work out.
This is boundto fail. The basic undertsanding of physics here seems to be faulty. Even the "apparent action at a distance" effect does not say that the effect of measurement will be the same on two beams - even if the quantum state just before measurement is "entangled" and so "same". The "same" single wavefunction could collapse into a "particle" here and a "wave" there, since that is perfectly consistent with QM. The collapse is basically a non-causal phenomenon.
time travel for either matter or energy in forward or reverse direction cannot be possible without the effect of creating alternate realities or completely smashing ours. The government sends data signals into the past telling whoever... kill Oswald.. ... jfk lives and alters history .. kill Hitler ... no WW2... history altered.. Osama, Sadam, etc,etc, no way these events wouldn't obliterate our "now" No God would ever permit such a simple way of "ruining" his work.
Why will it work if just the act of spliting the beam introduces a sort of brownian intrusion, resulting in two separate beams with no comon point past the split?
After double checking my calculations, I have confirmed that Cramer's experiment causes a complete collapse of the quantum loop gravity field and the entire universe instantly vanishes. It will result in the Big Bounce 15 billion years or so ago. I wish he would cut that out!
Again, the fundamental problem with this expirament is the way people are defining it:

1. We are going to measure two beams. But, we are going to measure the second one first, and if it matches the first one, which we will measure second, then the second one (again which we measured first) will have magically obtained future information when we conduct the measurement on the second beam.

However, this is physically identical to:

2. We are going to measure two beams. We will measure one first, and then the second one. We know the two will match, so to make things interesting, let's pretend when we measure the first one that it is the second one, and vice versa. That way, we can say it was time travel.

This, sadly, is as logical as marveling how today's sports page information traveled back in time to make the Yankees beat Toronto 3-2.

(Please note, it was not the sports page post that caused this, but my post here. The NY management owes me a check for causing their win. :)
From "Advanced Stellar Propulsion Systems" at:
http://members.andiamo-tel.com/~bfraser/4v4a/ADVPROP.html


"The underlying explanation seems to be simple. The photons are moving in both space and time. In space they are separating, but because they originated in the same event, they remain in the same temporal location, and that location moves away from the source and carries the two photons. It follows that if I disturb one photon, the other one becomes disturbed because they are both in the same temporal location, even though they are not in the same spatial location. Our spatial reference system is incapable of depicting temporal locations, and so the effect looks like the incomprehensible "action at a distance." "

From "Inverseness, Complementarity, and the Wave/Particle Duality" at:
http://members.andiamo-tel.com/~bfraser/qm/inverseness.html

"Maybe physicists have simply been asking the wrong question. Instead of asking "Is it a wave or is it particle?" maybe they should be asking something like:  "How does an inherently rotational entity appear to an observer in a linear, extensional reference system?"   It turns out that it would be seen either as a particle or as a wave, depending on the experimental set up. You can read more about this in my article The Origin of Intrinsic Spin."

See also:

http://members.andiamo-tel.com/~bfraser/qm/qmconcpt.htm#OriginOfIntrinsicSpin
I saw Cramer discuss this at a science fiction convention in Houston last month. It'll be interesting, no matter what happens...
The question I have is whether can I clean up the mess first? Thinking about this and reading all these reasoned responses just caused my head to explode two seconds from now.
Hah!  I read this last week.
The more I roll this around the less and less I can believe anyone would consider it a valid experiment. Taken to its logical extreme, why would the 'backwards in time' state determination stop only at the point of our measurement? If the state determination information travels back that far, why wouldn't it travel back to the origin of the particle itself?

Thus, the last observation is the one that determines the initial state, which, of course, makes no sense* in that it would leave the same evidence as if the initial state determines the last observation, which is the normal flow of time.

Simply picking up the cardboard "arrow of time" on your pipes and spinning it 180 degrees does not make information flow in reverse anywhere but in your imagination.



* Although it was an interesting, if humorless, concept in the last Hitchhiker book.
I'm sure it won't work.  The understanding of why it won't work and the expansion of that understanding into a broader theory could possibly be a valuable result.
If it works, I'm going to send a message back to myself to buy stock in this technology.
It is dangerous to play with things that you don't understand. Creating such a paradox will most likely result in the collapse of this universe.
I only wonder what might happen if the light in the experiment were to pass into a black hole?  Or even just near one,  if that would have any effect on the quantum entanglement...
If your getting this message before Sept 15th then it means the experiment was a success and we this post proves it.

Meeoow  O&A
Sure it will work I told myself all about it last week.  
The future me is skinny, go figure.


SEND A COMMENT

PLEASE READ: All comments must be approved before appearing in the thread; time and space constraints prevent all comments from appearing. We will only approve comments that are directly related to the blog, use appropriate language and are not attacking the comments of others.

Message (please, no HTML tags. Web addresses will be hyperlinked):

TRACKBACKS

Trackbacks are links to weblogs that reference this post. Like comments, trackbacks do not appear until approved by us. The trackback URL for this post is: http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/trackback.aspx?PostID=274531

Latest Tech & Science News

Syndicate This Site

Add Cosmic Log to your news reader:
live.com xml
myyahoo msn
bloglines newsgator
google