ABOUT COSMIC LOG

Quantum fluctuations in space, science, exploration and other cosmic fields... served up regularly by MSNBC.com science editor Alan Boyle since 2002.

Alan Boyle covers the physical sciences, anthropology, technological innovation and space science and exploration for MSNBC.com. He is a winner of the AAAS Science Journalism Award, the NASW Science-in-Society Award and other honors; a contributor to "A Field Guide for Science Writers"; and a member of the board of the Council for the Advancement of Science Writing.

Check out Boyle's biography or send a message to Cosmic Log via cosmiclog@msnbc.com.



Satellite spots secret sub

Posted: Thursday, July 05, 2007 7:50 PM by Alan Boyle


DigitalGlobe
This photograph, taken by DigitalGlobe's Quickbird satellite, appears to show
China's latest nuclear-powered, ballistic-missile submarine at port.

A policy analyst was making his regular checks of Google Earth when he came upon a rare prize: a photo of China's latest nuclear-powered, ballistic-missile submarine at port. It's the first publicly available satellite view clearly showing Beijing's Jin-class submarine, according to experts on the country's naval program.

The find, made by Hans Kristensen, director of the Federation of American Scientists' Nuclear Information Project, confirms that China is progressing in its plan to build stealthier nuclear-powered submarines. It also illustrates how commercial satellite imagery adds to the debate over international security.

The fresh image of China's Xiaopingdao submarine base near Dalian, snapped late last year by DigitalGlobe's Quickbird satellite, probably wouldn't tell the U.S. military anything it didn't know about the Jin-class sub, said  Lyle Goldstein, a specialist on Chinese maritime development and nuclear strategy at the Naval War College.

"Any photo that Google Earth has, I'm sure the Pentagon already had a long time ago. ... The Department of Defense has much better capability," he told me. (Goldstein emphasized that he was voicing his own opinion and not speaking on behalf of the Pentagon or the U.S. Navy.)

The picture's value has more to do with what people outside the government know about China's military capabilities. You can focus in on the sub yourself by starting from this wide-angle view of the submarine base, then aiming for the top of the "toe" in a boot of land sticking out from the shore.

Goldstein said he knew of one other unclassified picture purporting to show the Jin-class submarine, but the evidence for the identification is not as solid. Thus, the newfound picture "does advance the ball in terms of public knowledge," he said. 

"I sent it around to all my colleagues here," Goldstein said. "There's been speculation about this for a long time, but in the open press this is one of the first visual indicators that China is succeeding in the second generation [of its nuclear-powered sub program]."

Kristensen said he was of the same mind about the picture's significance: "This enables the public to participate in this debate and ask better questions."

The wider debate focuses on China's military capabilities and intentions. Experts say Beijing's first-generation nuclear missile sub, known as the Xia class, didn't quite make the grade because of its high noise levels and radiation leakage. Another drawback had to do with the nuclear-tipped ballistic missiles it was thought to carry: They had an estimated range of 1,100 miles (1,800 kilometers), not enough to project power globally.

In contrast, the Jin-class sub is thought to be bigger and quieter, carrying missiles with a 5,000-mile (8,000-kilometer) reach. U.S. intelligence assets were said to have spotted the sub back in 2004, but the Pentagon has never released any pictures for public consumption. 

Kristensen told me he makes routine checks for fresh imagery of sensitive sites on Google Earth, and when he spotted the new picture from Xiaopingdao, he assumed it was one of the Xia-class subs. "But then I started looking more carefully and comparing the dimensions," he said.

He analyzed the new picture in his posting to the Strategic Security Blog, and surmises that the next-generation sub is still undergoing testing three years after the first reports. "The fact that it's at this particular base, where the missile testing base is located, just probably shows that it's not quite up to speed yet," Kristensen said.

Kristensen found it interesting that the sub was just sitting out in the open. "The Chinese don't seem to be hiding this information in any particular way," he said.

He noted that the Chinese have a Xia-class sub on display at another base, also visible via Google Earth. "That is an open drydock where the [missile] tubes have been exposed, and a portion of the hull has been cut open so you can see directly into the reactor compartment," Kristensen said. "That is normally some of the most sensitive information, if you ask the people on our side."

He speculated that the Chinese might be leaving their subs open for satellite viewing as a kind of deterrent - in effect, letting the world know that they're moving forward with advanced weaponry.

This isn't the first time commercially available satellite imagery has opened a window on weighty international issues: For years, GlobalSecurity.org has followed military developments in Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, North Korea and elsewhere through its Public Eye satellite program. More recently, Google Earth and Amnesty International have documented Darfur's agonies using satellite data.

Kristensen noted that whole communities of citizen analysts have grown up around the publicly available satellite imagery. "It has become an extraordinarily important resource for monitoring the earth and what's happening on it," he said.

Goldstein agreed that publicly available imagery is a boon for analysts. "We have in our possession hundreds if not thousands of images of the PLA [People's Liberation Army] Navy, including the diesel-class submarines," he said. "These are all unclassified. We just get them off the Internet."

However, Goldstein and other analysts still wish the Chinese would show more official openness about their naval aspirations - particularly when it comes to the nuclear submarine fleet, which one Chinese military leader has said would be the "most critical naval asset" in future conflicts.

"I don't think Americans object to China building a strong navy, but the objection is, how do we understand where this is going? That's where most other naval powers are making all the data available on these programs," Goldstein said.

"In 2004, we learned about a new class of Chinese submarine, the Yuan class. How did we learn about it? Some pictures turned up on the Internet," he continued. "Is this the way China wants to get the word out that it's building new capabilities? This is really the worst way of letting other countries know about new military capabilities, because surprise feeds these anxieties around the region and in the United States about China's long-term intentions."

Last year, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice voiced concern about China's military buildup, saying it seemed "outsized" for Beijing's regional security role. Later, the U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence estimated that China might build five Jin-class submarines. And just today, Australia seconded U.S. concerns in its own defense policy blueprint, warning that China's rapid military modernization could lead to "misunderstanding and instability" in the Asia-Pacific region.

Goldstein said the new Jin-class submarines, which are "boomers" built for a nuclear doomsday, are still a subject of "serious debate among analysts." It's not at all clear whether they will play a significant role in China's future military, or whether they're merely a sideshow.

"It's for saber-rattling - to say, 'Hey, we put our boomers to sea, and this could get very ugly,'" he said. "It's the ultimate trump card for the Taiwan scenario."

For his part, Goldstein is more interested in whether China will develop a robust fleet of nuclear attack submarines, which could serve as far more versatile platforms for challenging U.S. naval power in the years ahead. "That is a very good indicator of China's global intentions," he said.

Will the Shang-class nuclear attack sub be one of the coming attractions in satellite imagery? What role do you think such imagery can play in the public debate? Feel free to weigh in with your own analysis below.

MAIN PAGE

Email this EMAIL THIS

Comments

Golly, Lets give them all the technology and money they need to become a global power. Gotta love the great USA.
Maybe their goal is to figure out what everyone's reaction is? Figure out who will side with who? And to show that China is a global power. Should we stop buying things that say "Made in China?
I have been involved in military and foreign affairs for 35 years.  There is a thing called the Military/Industrial complex that feeds on fear.  Each nation has one.  The more powerful the nation the larger the industry.  

The internet, commercially owned satelites and email are tremendous tools that can distribute real information and knowledge to everyone.  With knowledge comes understanding ... with understanding comes friendship/partnership.

These technologies empower we the people and give us a reliable and largely superior information source than the military systems that our governments create and control.

I think this is a very exciting time in history ... when knowledge and logic can trump fear and suspicion ... because "we the people" can see for ourselves what is going on and can draw our own conclusions.

6 billion spies is a formidable force.  Give the technology to the people and hold on.

The military is not in the business of giving anything, have you noticed politicians are the one publicizing sharing (giving) technology. usually something the other side probably already have. it makes for good international relations...Besides it is in our interest that they have an interest in national self preservation. At least you can bargain with instead of those other idiots (Name left out)...
Any one of these nuclear or biological weapons will destroy life on earth as we know it.

Just one and that doesn't mean it may be the only one. One can start and end it all!

So many weapons, more are always being built.

Bigger, better, faster, smarter, etc. etc. etc..

There's only one result.

DEATH

What the hell is wrong with the human race?
A little AAMD (Arsenals of ABSOLUTE Mass Destruction), eh?  I wonder if Bush plans more provocative fly-bys of this naval base like he did before 9/11 with a spy plan that almost crashed?  It's surely a dangerous path to tread to think that our armies can't be beaten or that we can do no wrong in a world with such an 'even' nuclear playing field.  As a rogue superpower, the US is forcing all other nations to harden their positions and spend more on weapons.  If anyone wanted to know how the world felt in the late '30s, just look around.

When we look at 'nature' we see in nearly all species a tendency to fight and to even kill the cubs of other males.  Even dolphins form up in groups to attack other dolphins, which they suggested was a trait meant for enhancing survival.  

Bearing this 'detached' perspective in mind, I've come to the conclusion that it is up to the public (you know... the ones asked to actually do all the fighting for the powers that be) to lift themselves up by the boot heals and secure their own lives knowing that such things happen, will happen, and are virtually inevitable given our own weaknesses.  I've always said as I worked feverishly thought the 1990s that it is during the good times that we must to the most to prepare.  Once you enter into the bad times there becomes little you can do.  

Part of the preparation I recommend is for families to build very functional 'emergency-enhanced' home designs in the four- to seven-bedroom range that will allow us to meet the demands we can easily see coming.  Since the preparations for any one type of war, disaster or pandemic are virtually identical to the other, we can think of such added preparations as good to do regardless.  I hardly thing we need bunkers but some added bedroom capacity to help us cope with times of mass evacuations and so on are even the types of preparations that are good during economic downturns where people like me lose their job and are forced to return home.  
Really, can you be so ignorant to speculate on what China's Global Intentions are?? Get serious, they are a thriving country with billions, maybe trillions of US money they have purchased, what better way to overthrow us then by bankrupting us. They are the worlds biggest polluters and once they kill their own country , they have to go somewhere. One day their subs will appear at all our port areas with their missles and say, "Hi this is now the new China".
If the chinese quality control and profiteering culture is anything to go by, the sub will probably just manage to reach Taiwan before it developes a leak and has to return back to base for repairs.
I keep reading that the U.S. is the "sole superpower" in the world. This story, and many others, show how foolish this claim is. In a nuclear, industrialized world, the military power of the U.S. is quite limited. If you doubt it, look at the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The U.S. has lost both wars, against primitively equipped oponents. War is something developed nations need to avoid -- because war no longer "works," in this era of assymetrical war and insurgencies.

Thanks for reading.
It's actualy about "The more millitary one single nation has ,the more power it has to control world economic"
We have them, why shouldn't they?  Do we really expect the rest of the world to wield rocks and clubs while we have subs with dozens of Tritons swimming the seas?  I think in the coming decades China will become a major ally, and if not a formidable foe.  Lets hope our leaders can keep it peaceful.

Just my 2 cents.
Just a quick response to Brian -
We don't give the Chinese money - we borrow from them.  They own a significant portion of our public debt in the form of treasury securities.  The only country that owns more is Japan.

And to William -
I suppose we could collectively as a consumer base quit purchasing items that were "Made in China," but American business (large and small) will continue to outsource parts and labor to the Chinese in an effort to make a larger profit on the goods that we continue to recognize as "American."  The better solution would be to insist on country of orgin declarations on all goods sold in the U.S., and make our purchasing decisions based on some real information.
Look further north up the coast and you will see an aircraft carrier either in construction or repair. I think their intentions are clear, they see themselves as the rightful global power since after all they have the majority of the population in their borders. They have the majority of the world dependent upon them for manufacturing, they are rapidly upgrading their military, so is it just a matter of time until they seek to exert their military power and will upon the rest of the world?
Does anyone remember the 1930's when the USA traded heavily with Japan? The Japanese made really junky 'knock-offs' of American invented products and sold them cheap to us. We gave away our technology which would have taken them many more years to develop. We sold them mega-tons of scrap metal which they turned into bombs. Does anyone see a pattern here? Good grief, doesn’t anyone know any history? ... and China keeps rattling its sabres!

ah, mr clinton allowed the chinese to get the ability to fire ICBM rockets from a fund raiser who ran a big company. They allowed other technology to be shared with china and big business donors

Hillary will do the same. They care only about the socialistic way of life. We now hear about the shoddy dealings with our big business and the poisoning of our citizens. Big business must be stopped in their track and their ceo jailed. No matter who they are, big business has given us the problems we now have with immigration and the imported unsafe trash we are getting from china in the name of profit at any cost.

Down with those who will sacrifice us in the name of profit, the time for citizens to come together is approaching and we will realize the founders gave us a way to do away with those who are taking us for granted.

Yes we should stop buying things that say made in China! Why should we support this? China is it's own worst enemy but you gotta love their way of thinking...
The free world should be on edge concerning China. Unlimited labor combined with world power ambitions and a powerful economic base are a dangerous combination for anyone who is not Chinese. We have yet to see their true intentions.
I appreciate the Chinese Navy's willingness to leave there new subs out in the open for world viewing.  Consumers appreciate seeing their dollars at work.  The next time I'm at Walmart I'll know I'm not just buying cut-rate imports of dubious quality, I'll be doing my part to bring more nuclear equipped doomsday weapons into the world.
Gee, nobody could have seen this coming, 25 years ago.
People get very nervous when issues like nuclear power and nuclear weapons are brought to their attention...especially when it has to do with China. China has approximately 1,321,851,888 (July 2007 est. from CIA "The Fact Book") and a growing economy and military. That's almost 5 times more than the USA's population living in roughly the same amount of territory. Below are some more details:

China
male: 32.7 years (Median Age)
0-14 years: 20.4% (male 143,527,634/female 126,607,344)
15-64 years: 71.7% (male 487,079,770/female 460,596,384)

USA
male: 35.3 years (Median Age)
0-14 years: 20.2% (male 31,152,050/female 29,777,438)
15-64 years: 67.2% (male 100,995,752/female 101,365,035)

As you can see above, China has nearly 110,000,000 more males 0-14 years of age and roughly 380,000,000 more 15-64 year old males than the USA.

Now, I as most see China as our friend and I have a great respect for the Chinese. But, you have to admit that the numbers are very intimidating. Add to the fact that they have a pretty good reason to move beyond their borders and it gets even more intimidating. Let's hope the Chinese do not decide to expand their territories or we will be speaking English as a second language.

NOTE: All statistical information above was posted on the CIA website located at

https://www.cia.gov/library/
publications/the-world-factbook/index.html
If their "QC" record is indication of future performance ... the subs will break after a couple of uses anyway...
If you look closely you can see a placard on the conning tower reading "Lower prices thanks to WalMart"
How does one confirm this image portrays truly what it seems to represent?
Got a chuckle that some guy in a war college thinks this item doesn't give any info our intel experts don't already have.
Another Pre-world war II Japan in the making?
so what?

Who the hell are we to say "Oh we have big guns, but you're not allowed to because we say so!" ??
China is developing nuclear subs, fielding thousands of ballistic missiles, and expanding its air force, army, and navy by leaps and bounds, yet there are still deluded simpletons in the U.S. who think that the Chinese have only peaceful intentions.  What part about "offensive weaponry" doesn't make sense to you?

After all, Germany was only interested in the safety of the ethnic Germans in the Sudetenland just prior to WWII...
This is how the world works throughout history the rise and fall of superpowers. I think technology is the key for one nation to become a superpower.

For now US has the most advanced weapons compared to other Countries. China is far from such technology.
As a nuclear power Russia has 10000 nuclear bombs and US 2500. In case of war between US and Russia no one wins thats for sure.

The fire will come from the East.
Where is all the talk about disarming China?  I smell a rat.  When it comes to Iran or North Korea, it is all "we must disarm them", non proliferation and all that talk.  I don't hear anything about China.  Why not?  Qui Bono?
It is nice to see my hard earned dollars at work in thier country. But...the wife like to buy thing cheaply. I can't buy a computer component that is actually made in America. Wal-mart you can hang this on but it is also the other big box stores just as much as them. You want to blame someone for this and get angry at someone...look in the mirror folks. It is you the American consumer. You want to save a buck...it'll come from China.

It is Joe consumer that will help build China. It is Joe politician that will help build China by putting our country in further debt. Until people really sit back and say America first...and hold our politicians to task and keep thier minds on the real interests of the people. The economics of this country are all about money. Whom ever can get something the consumer wants at the least amount of cost and money, they will do better with Joe and Jane consumer.

It all start with YOU, and I mean YOU the people. If you want change make it happen. Do your part and get involved.
The other day I wrote a comment saying, "Money justifies everything these days".  This country is so profit-focused that it is blind to the consequences of its other action.  I don't begrudge folks (or companies) out there, who want to "make a buck". . . .but at whose expense is it that you're making that buck?  Are you "shooting yourself in the foot"?  Anything for the Almighty Dollar.  Anything at all.  Is this country really that desperate?  Or is it that greedy. . . .that it will cash in its liberty and security for profit?  And once it has done so, how long will it have liberty and security?  I know it was Nikita Khrushchev who said, "We will bury you".  And Mao Tse-tung is no longer around, either.  And neither is the Soviet Union.  However, we still have Vladimir Putin to deal with.  And China is officially still basically a Marxist-communist state, regardless of the capitalistic inroads that have been made there.
What a big fuss for a submarine photo? Russia , Britain, French have this weapon for many years already. People just worry something that is a normal defense building process of any sovereign nation.
Hey Rick (Minneapolis,July 6):  I'm w/ you. Any ideas  how to "get involved and hold our politicians to task" other than the obvious (register, become informed, then vote)?
There is nothing 'normal' about China. The oriental way of thinking is not the Western way.  And that Western way includes both North America and Europe.  Understandable.  South America and Africa are each different in other ways, but Asia is really different.  There has never been a tradition of democracy there, but always of autocratic rule from a few at the top of the heap.  The mindset has been established for many generations that the ordinary Joe has to obey.  There has never been a revolution there elevating the common man, never a Magna Carta, never a constitution, written or unwritten, to give every person a reason to act.  The only reason I have for hope is that the entire continent has never had explorers either, seeking new living space, and probably doesn't understand the Westerner's urge to expand is sphere of interest.
People, it's not as if we don't already have (thanks to the Cold War) a signifigant anti-submarine capability already in place...

So China will get, in some more years, one, only one submarine that can throw 12 missiles in USA territory.

Lets see how this new submarine is comparable with the forces and numbers of USA submarines.

Lets remember that the Tomahawk cruise missiles, with a range of 1600 kilometers, can carry nuclear warheads.

USA submarines:
Los Angeles Class (Tomahawk missile capable - SSN)
- 17 ships in active duty;
Los Angeles Class VLS (vertical launch system SSN)
- 8 ships in active duty;
Improved Los Angeles (Tomahawk missile capable- SSN)
- 22 ships in active duty;
Sea Wolf Class SSN (Tomahawk - SSN)
- 1 ships
Virginia Class SSN (Tomahawk - SSN)
- 3 ships
Ohio Class SSBN (stragic missiles- 24 missiles each)
- 15 ships
Ohio SSGN conversion (Tomahawk Launhcer - 154 missiles
- 4 ships

It gives a Total of
- 70 nuclear attack submarines capable of launching a huge amount of Tomahawk nuclear cruise missiles against

one prototype submarine for China.

China strategic submarine -
Jin Class type 94 - SSBN(16 missiles - 8000 km range
1 ship in test phase
Xia Class type 92 - SSBN (12 missiles - 2500 Km range)
1 ship
Shang Class type 93- SSN (maybe LACM cruise missiles)
1 ship

That means  
- 2 operational Chinese strategic missile ships against
-70 strategic missile submarines from USA.

So the China submarine "threat" is a dream out of conspiracy theories.

Everytime I go shopping, there are hardly any products which are manufactured in the the U.S. I'm 64, and I can remember when we made everything! Shoes, clothing, sewing machines, Televisions, radios etc. the list goes on and on. Now? We only make debts and stuff for war and send our people to kill and be killed for reasons that are as murky as pea soup.the reasons for war has not changed in thousands of years. It still comes down to: dirt, water, minerals and oil. And folks, everything else is a lie!
"People, it's not as if we don't already have (thanks to the Cold War) a signifigant anti-submarine capability already in place..."

Frank, Although the U.S. and NATO has a major anti-submarrine capability, it has a hard time finding the ultra quiet and small desiel/fuel cell submarrines now being produced around the world. They are quieter than nuclear sub-marries and give the advantage to the defender.  
Its too bad the US has 300 million people, because 150 million of you are so completely oblivious and ignorant.  It’s sad really. You HAVE nuclear weapons.  You are the only country to ever use them on another country.  You supply your wasteful ignorant way of life through the oppression of other nations.  You provide electricity to your homes and industry from nuclear energy, but then you lay claims to other countries not being able to do the same.  What right do any of you have to impose your will on other nations?? You pump-up the UN only when it is in your favour, and completely ignore it whenever you choose.  Such a huge percentage of US media is perpetuating fear by claiming that China is a threat.  Are you that blind? The USA spends more money on military than the next 10 highest countries COMBINDED, and that happens every single year.  It never ends.  The USA is the militaristic bully state, if you can't see that by looking at the military spending numbers alone then again, you are blind.  Stay within your own borders, don't meddle in other countries affairs just so you can install governments that will sell you oil cheaply.  Oop's, I’m sorry, Americans actually still believe they were attacked on 9/11 because people from the Middle East are jealous of your freedom.  Read the 9/11 commission report, even the CIA doesn't believe that, yet the rest of Americans do.  No wonder your illiteracy rate is the highest in the developed world.  
Kizer: I sold Chinese products for years and the quality of the same products was outstanding. George: In regards to their military objectives, a strong defense/military is very important to any nation. (I am sure that the Chinese people still remember what happened to them during World War Two)If I was in charge of the Chinese government, I would do the same thing they are doing in regards to the military. And I believe in the same for the United States.
Toronto: Your comments are very offensive to me and to many other Americans on this website. We were attacked on 9/11 by people who hate us, and we will always need a strong military to protect us from the same.
Save your breath and concerns for someone who cares. The US government will continue to turn a blind eye because it is too indebted to the Chinese financially to rock the boat. The Pentagon Fools are too pre-occupied still trying to figure out how to defeat third world opponents in ill advised wars on terror. All the while greedy business executives are forced sell us out by greedy stockholders demanding ever higher profits obtainable only with cheap Chinese labor. The root cause of the problem is GREED. Hope you like rice.
China's nuclear capability is just barely large enough to make an agressor think twice about doing something stupid, like attacking China.  Which is just the way China wants it.  They have no serious first-strike capability, and this one submarine does not change that.
You don't have to be very astute to understand the Chinese game plan.  It is quite simple.  They are in the process (well underway) of taking over the United States economically and we are happily letting them do it.  Once their military has reached the point where it is unstopable they will give us the choice:  Either succumb to Chinese rule or be blasted into the Dark Ages.  And there's not a damn thing we can do about it.
China's economic shellgame is being exposed in their recent quality control issues.  The backlash of their own Soviet style meet-the-quota-or-else production mentality is due for a nasty backfire.  Their pollution levels are beginning to show themselves in the average health of their growing urban population, and despite the presence of nacent boomer capability, there's still the issue of how you put a few hundred million troops on ANYONE'S soil without a massive and unhideable build up of troop transport capability.

At most, they're a threat to southeast Asia, if anyone.  The current US government may not be entirely popular, but the US itself still has solid economic ties to the rest of the continent, and they will not tolerate China stirring the pot anymore than we will.

May I remind you all that another growing billion population nation with nuclear capability and a REAL friendly buddy buddy relationship with Washington DC is sitting just south of China?   India, like China, is largely rural, yet with an impressively growing technology sector, including nuclear weapons and the necessary delivery systems and a ballistic missile program a few steps shy of manned spaceflight

Why is that a key point about missiles?  Simple, you don't stick a man in a rocket unless you're DANG sure it will do what its supposed to do, even if you don't care about human life, because its a matter of national prestige.  Manned spaceflight is indicative of rockets with 90% or better reliability.

The US is not the only headache China will find itself contending with.
Ken Gardonia: The Pentagon "Fools"(and the CIA/FBI and current administration "Fools") have done a fantastic job(perfect) in preventing another 911 type terrorist attack. Sounds like their "ill advised" war on terror is working at least to me.
Ron Janec is not amused by Toronto's comments about Americans.  Toronto (to use an American excuse) 'mis-spoke' himself.  He should have explained that 9/ll was perpetrated by a group of Saudi Arabians (one of America's good friends overseas) led by Osama bin Laden [...].  The attackers were not from Iraq, nor Afghanistan, nor Pakistan, nor Palestine, but do indeed 'hate' America, though not for its freedom, but rather because America 'loves' Israel, which the attackers 'hate' even more than they hate America, and that for religious reasons, believing the Hebrews to be apostate Muslims.  And China could care less, taking their cue from America's horse-blinkered focus on 'the bottom line,' ignoring 'true religion' completely.
Des Emery: You're right. They also hate us because of our very large Christian population. It is very sad to live your life in hatred of other people and think you are doing God's work.
Right on Brian, you hit the nail smack on the head. I long ago realized that China is and has been a rogue state. (Yeah, I know I will be attacked for that thought).
Maybe we should simply ask Wal-Mart what China's intentions are since Wal-Mart is the 12th largest Chinese trading partner in the world funneling billions of dollars in hard cash to the Chinese each year. (They may be higher at the writing)
The way the US and other countries are sending jobs and cash to the Chinese is scary and building a super power out of a communist state that has shown itself to be irresponsible in more ways than I can mention in this space. (Anyone remember a satellite they blew up not thinking of the consequenses of their actions on other space bound infrastructure?)
China is a very, very dangerous power to deal with. A government that has shown that it will do anything, no matter how inhumane to rule it's people and claim rights to countries that it has no right to claim. Our government and many companies are seemingly unwilling to stop what could become a worlds rogue superpower from exerting it's will over the rights and freedoms of ours and other countries. Think the mideast is dangerous? They don't have the weaponry that China has and the infrastructure to build it.
I for one am not fooled by China's intentions, you should not be either.
We will have to deal with the monster we built one day in the not too distant future if we do not change political and economic policy's that America has towards China. We and our consumers are financing a monster and no one seems willing to stand up and recognize it.


SEND A COMMENT

PLEASE READ: All comments must be approved before appearing in the thread; time and space constraints prevent all comments from appearing. We will only approve comments that are directly related to the blog, use appropriate language and are not attacking the comments of others.

Message (please, no HTML tags. Web addresses will be hyperlinked):

TRACKBACKS

Trackbacks are links to weblogs that reference this post. Like comments, trackbacks do not appear until approved by us. The trackback URL for this post is: http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/trackback.aspx?PostID=259503

Latest Tech & Science News

Syndicate This Site

Add Cosmic Log to your news reader:
live.com xml
myyahoo msn
bloglines newsgator
google