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Quantum fluctuations in space, science, exploration and other cosmic fields... served up regularly by MSNBC.com science editor Alan Boyle since 2002.

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Down with Darwinism

Posted: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:55 PM by Alan Boyle

Hot on the heels of Darwin Day, scientists following the cultural debate over teaching evolution say focusing on Charles Darwin might be exactly the wrong thing to do. And based on the different experiences in the United States and Europe, some say the controversy has as much to do with the sorry state of religious literacy as with the sorry state of science literacy. These and other bits of unconventional wisdom were passed along today during a trans-Atlantic meeting of the minds at the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science.

The theme of today's session was anti-evolution sentiment in Europe, a place where the ideas developed by Darwin and his successors in evolutionary biology haven't historically stirred up as much of a fuss as they have in the United States. Last year, a study published in Science indicated that Europeans were far ahead of Americans in their acceptance of evolutionary theory.

However, that situation may be changing, according to Ulrich Kutschera, a plant physiologist and evolutionary biologist at the University of Kassel in Germany. "The 'Anti-Darwin movement' is currently spreading in European countries and in Russia," he reports in a paper presented at the AAAS meeting. One German-language textbook on intelligent design has just gone into its sixth printing and has been translated into several other languages, he said.

"The more one argues against this creationist propaganda ... the less you can convince people who are not scientists," he observed during a news briefing today. Darwin's detractors are just too heavily "indoctrinated" for the arguments to have any effect, Kutschera said. (One could say that the volumes of back-and-forth argument over the subject on Cosmic Log bear out this hypothesis as well.)

So what's the remedy? "My recommendation is simply ... to no longer talk about 'Darwinism,'" Kutschera said. "You could say that Darwinism is one man's outdated ideology of the 19th century. And Darwinism sounds like Marxism, Leninism, Stalinism ... that's a problem. The second point is that it must be made clear that the modern theory of evolution is in part anti-Darwin. Darwin did not, for instance, take into account the principle of evolution by cooperation."

Eugenie Scott, executive director of the California-based National Center for Science Education, said Kutschera had a good point. She noted that the advocates of intelligent design "can't get through two sentences without using 'Darwinism' or 'Darwinist.'"

"Geologists don't refer to themselves as Lyellists. Physicists don't refer to themselves as Kelvinists. We don't refer to ourselves by our 19th-century representative. The science has grown up," she said. "This is a rhetorical point. There are some scientists who make that error, and they get it from the creationists."

The controversy relates to cultural and religious trends much more than scientific issues, said Antje Jackelen, associate professor of systematic theology/religion and science at the Lutheran School of Theology in Chicago and director of the Zygon Center for Religion and Science. It's common to complain about science illiteracy in the United States, but she noted that most American public schools don't adequately address religion. Meanwhile, religious schools focus almost exclusively on one church's doctrine rather than broadening a student's understanding of other religions.

"What we need to do is [increase] both the scientific and the religious literacy," she said.

Here again, Scott largely agreed:

"We will never solve this problem by throwing science at it. Science is necessary but not sufficient to solve this problem. We have to look at this problem of evolution and creationism in this country from a very broad perspective. Yeah, people don't know that evolution is really good science, so that's something that the scientific community needs to make clear - and that applies to astronomers and geologists and biologists and anthropologists. We all use evolution.

"But people also believe in this dichotomy, that you have to choose between science and religion, between evolution and creation. And here's where the religious professionals have that role to play, in showing that middle position. That it's not necessarily a dichotomy, that there's a great deal of variation out there.

"And at least in the United States - and I strongly suspect in Europe as well, but I don't know - one of the major arguments is that it's fair to teach both: 'We'll give the students all the choices, this is good pedagogy, it's critical thinking. Give the students evolution and creationism, or evolution and evidence against evolution, and let them work this out and they'll become good critical thinkers.' Americans really resonate to that argument. But it's a false argument, and here's where the teachers can help.

"So we have a role for scientists, for the religious professionals, the teachers, and we want a role for parents, too, because parents ought to be demanding that the best science be taught in their local schools. Because in the United States, education is very politicized. You vote for the school board members. It's very different from the top-down system you have in Europe."

Michigan State University science professor Jon Miller, the author of that study on international perspectives on evolution, took an interesting approach to that political question: He ran for a seat on the DeKalb (Ill.) Community Schools board back in the early 1980s - and won. Now he thinks other scientists should do the same.

"When I served, it was a lot more work and a lot more frustration than I thought," he said in a university news release. "But I would do it again. In order to make schools better, you have to do it. A couple terms from every scientist would be fine."

Does that make you think about running for office - or running away? Feel free to add your comments below.

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I find on of Ms. Scott's comments interesting: 'We'll give the students all the choices, this is good pedagogy, it's critical thinking. Give the students evolution and creationism, or evolution and evidence against evolution, and let them work this out and they'll become good critical thinkers.' Americans really resonate to that argument. But it's a false argument, and here's where the teachers can help" ...

Why is this a false argument? There is evidence for and against evolutionary concepts as a theory of origins, whether applied to the universe, life, or the human race. I don't see any reason why students should not understand that there are different beliefs, here are the evidences that people use to support their beliefs, and be encouraged to become critical thinkers. Schools can never give students all the knowlege they will need, schools need to teach students how to think for themselves and learn on their own.
"...the sorry state of religious literacy as with the sorry state of science illiteracy."

How perfectly this sums up both sides of the evolution vs. intelligent design issue.  
In regards to the Biblical creation, it is a fascinating account that truly is arranged in sequence with how the world evolved from the infinitesimal point of dense matter in the Big Bang to humans.  However, God did not intend the Genesis account of creation to serve as a textbook for science class.  Moses writing about unicellular biology, organic chemistry, and physics was not in God's plan. The Bible is Scripture concerning the relationship between God and humans, not the end all for scientific literature. (Read Psalm 19 1-4) Do I believe we evolved from apes?  Not a chance.

 Do I believe the universe was created in six days?  Who cares, it doesn't matter, but how you live your life does. (As a sidenote: if you can't read Hebrew you're really not getting the full translation of the Genesis creation account.)

Now for those who don't believe in God or Intelligent Design, you have a most daunting task of proving the universe and life on this speck of a planet are not of design.  When you take into consideration the absolute fine tuning of the universe and how it is designed (oops)to support life; when you pour over today's scientific facts, it becomes increasingly difficult not to give Intelligent Design the same fair air time as evolution.

The best website that I have ever found which uses actual proven science and discusses both sides is godandscience.org  

I encourage both sides to be more open to the truth.
Darwin's evolution theory has some obvious relevance but only for limited application. As science has not been able to re-create even the most simple precursors to "live" bacteria there is a lot that we still have to learn. Also the fossil record shows evolution advancing in sudden leaps rather than a continuous path. It would be more enlightening if the article would concentrate on science rather than opinion.
Think for a minute about how intricately you are made. Think about innerspace, and out. Things that make sense don't fall together by accident. It just doesn't happen that way in real life. A computer was created by a technician. A chair was made by human hands. A Space shuttle was designed by humans. How foolish would it be to say that those things happened by accident, and had no creator? How stupid indeed.

We are the very proof people whine that God has not shown them. If people don't accept that, then they would not accept God nomatter what proof was given them. There would always be another explanation, even more stupid than the previous one.

That is my take on it.
The real problem with this debate is that it is missing on key consideration: educational theory.  As an educator, it is really embarassing to see both those who are opposed to evolution and those in favor of it subscribe to very out-dated (and, in fact, not science-based) theories of education.  Each side accuses the other of "indoctornation" and the reality is that both sides are guilty of this.  But the chemists and the biologists whould never admit it because that would mean taking the Education departments in their own universites seriously.  The best teachers are the best geeks in the lab.  Yes, siree.  And that is why scientists keep getting pounded. It is not science that needs to change but the teaching of science.  But the rewards system in the sciences is totally antithetical to that idea.  
It's perfectly sensible to teach both evolution and intelligent design. If anything, it should encourage children/youth to think for themselves on this topic instead of blindly accepting either side.
I have absolutely no problem with my children being taught religion, even though I no longer believe in religion as being reality. What I do have a problem with is "Intelligent Design", which is obviously a thinly veiled form of Creationism being labeled as and taught as science. In order for something to be a science it HAS TO HAVE independently testable and verifiable outcomes to support or dismiss theoretical hypothesis'. Intelligent Design does not have this characteristic and is therefore NOT a science. However, feel free to teach my children about every religion on the planet in philosophy class or some other.
I don't understand all the controversy. Why can't both theories work in harmony? If we don't believe in a higher power, why do we have all these churches? Entertainment? The population of the world believes in a higher power. What set the stage for evolution to work?
I do not have enough faith to believe in evolution(the absurd thing about believing that things by themselves continue evolving to improve).We all know that the tendency of anything is to degenerate as time goes along.

This applies specifically to anything related to the human species.

To believe that God was the creator of the incredible complexity that you find even in the amoeba certainly requires considerable less faith than to reason/think that evolution did it.
Why do people think they have put evolution in its place by saying "It's only a theory".  Every scientific concept constructed from observable facts is a theory.  There is no such thing as a scientific "law" even though the term is used.  There is no "Law" of gravity..  There is a theory of gravity.  Read a summary of Einstein's general theory of relativity, in which he expounds a theory of gravity.  Newton's equation is merely an empirical construct which happens to work.  So thinking that you have neatly dismissed evolution by saying "It's only a theory" only exposes your lack of knowledge of what science is.
Of course Darwin didn't get the entire theory of evolution correct in The Origin of Species.  He wasn't aware of Mendel's work and the molecular and genetic tecchniqueswe have today weren't at his commend.  ID/creationists who attack Darwin are setting him up as a straw man.  Darwin does deserve respect and admiration for many reasons: with an untrained mind he independently framed the theory of evolution by natural selection.  To do this, he spent five years beingg seasick and risking his life on Beagle while he developed as a geologist and biologist.  He practically founded the notion of ecology, did goundbreaking work in geology, anthropology, human and aninmal behaviour, taxonomy, worms, climbing plants.  Any ten pages of The Voyage of the Beagle have enough discoveries and scientific insights to keep an average scientist happy for a decade.

Oh, and one more reason: Darwin and his bulldogs tore Victorian science from the grasp of the Anglican clergymen who tried to mediate geology and life sciences solely through Genesis.  They established it as an independent profession.  What a good day's work that was.  A great man, a nice guy, and the founder of many branches of science we take for granted.  In short, a man worth standing up for.
We All Have Problems with Precise Defintions of or Words 

 With this title in mind, it is appropriate to say "sorry"  R. Humphrey, there is a law of gravity in our universe. Said law (perhaps not what your law in quotes is mean't to convey) is not a theory but an absolute fact of our physical universe, specifically,
mass attracts mass (Newton's and Einstein's THEORIES are attempts to explain this law of gravity). If this fact (law) of our universe were only a theory, as it seems you want to define theory, then each time one on Earth dropped a body with mass it  would be said to only fall in theory or be said to have only theoretically fallen. Einstein's Relativity Theory discovered the speed limit (law of physcis and our physical universe) for bodies with mass in our universe. All explanations may be considered "theoretical" if you like, but the facts are facts, not theory. Einstein's Special Relativity Theory (REMEMBER, for good reason in view of all the misunderstanding caused by the word "Relativity", Einstein preferred the title "Theory of Invariance") helped us humans to distinguish things in our physical universe which are relative (may have different theoretical explanations) from those which are not (absolute laws often scientific, facts of our universe). For example, the maximum speed of light is the same for all observers in our universe, uniform motion is relative in our universe (rest cannot be distinguished physically from moving at a constant velocity), identical clocks in uniform motion with respect to one another in our universe will not be seen, by one another, as keeping identical time. The clock claiming itself to be at rest and the other moving will, with absolute, scientific rectitude, see (and know if can't see) the said moving clock to be running sowly when compared. Another example, in our physical universe, it is an absolute fact that BOTH (all, if more than two) observers in uniform motion (moving with repect to each other at constant velocity, no change in size or direction) have the right to claim rest for themselves with the other moving. We live in an equal opportunity universe in this matter. There is, in our physical universe, no physical experiment that can detect absolute motion when it is uniform. In our physical universe it is an absolute fact, law of physics that there is no physical experiment that will allow any observer to determine whether said observer is at rest or in uniform motion (moving at a constant velocity) without any reference to some other outside observer or thing. If you are flying in a plane in perfectly smooth air, can't look out any window, are stone deaf, can feel any engine vibrations, fell asleep while waiting to leave the gate, and were not awakened while the plane became airbone in the smooth air, you would not be able to tell if you were underway at 500 miles per hour or still sitting at the gate (asking someone to look out the window for you or other "tricks" are not allowed either). It is also an absolute fact of our physical universe (not just some scientific theory) that all observers can physically detect any CHANGE from uniform motion. We all experience this absolute when we accelerate our car (change size of velocity) or go around a curve (change direction of our velocity). Again, physical THEORIES may attempt to explain these absolutes of our universe, but what they are explaning is not, in the examples given, a theory or a theoretical thing. 

 I also hope this lengthy comment will help those who think that there is nothing absolute in our universe and give some ammunition to those trying to find some absolutes.

I am certain that Darwin believed that there are absolutes, but I am not so certain about many of the self-claimed Darwinists or Evolutionists. All "true" scientists have strong beliefs about or faith in their area of expertise; so, "faith" and "belief" are there whether admitted or not. After all, it surely takes a LOT of "faith" to believe that humans can uncover the absolutes of our universe, the goal of all "true" science. When Einstein said that the Lord was subtle but not malicious, it does seem that Einstein intended to eliminate the idea of maliciousness, instilling said "faith" in science if the goals of science were futile. That is, of course, why Einstein said "subtle not malicious".
Several people have suggested that there is no problem with evolution being simply a mechanism of an intelligent agent. Kraven of Ontario says:

"I never understood why more people don't get the idea into their head that maybe evolution in itself was created by intelligent design. What's a greater creation than one that improves itself?"


The ID community has this idea EXACTLY in their heads Kraven. Thank you for putting a fine point on it!
what a relief to hear sanity out there. the solution lies in clear logical thinking. trading insults won't solve matters it's okay for me to say this due the fact I know nothing being untaught and unlearned not to mention a fool and ignoramus. 'it appears to be a case of the emperors clothes'
As always, people keep getting religion mixed up with belief in a creator. I don't think religion should be taught in school, but I do believe evolution should be taught as a scientific understanding of how the universe might have been created. Alternatives to evolution, to include scientific, theoretical, and speculative posibilities, should be discussed. Creationism is of course speculative. It is based on faith, so when discussing it along side scientific theories, the difference should be emphasized by the teachers. However, not teaching it to our children doesn't allow them to use critical thinking to make educated decisions for themselves. What is it that atheists are so afraid of that they don't want creationism taught in our schools? What is it that makes atheists call Christians and other people of faith stupid for not believing their dogma? Most religions don't force their beliefs down anyones throats in the manner that atheists want to force evolution down people of faith's throats. Let's give the majority of the people in this country what they want, a choice not an absolute.
Heck, take a vacation from this evolutionism / creationism debate stuff. Read about "Scriptural Physics" at: http://members.andiamo-tel.com/~bfraser/ Yeah, how is THAT for a combination!? There is no "God or Science" dichotomy here, nor science illiteracy nor religious illiteracy. This site clearly has a lot of know-how from both camps. And it points out a host of fascinating things that will just blow your mind!
I would point out to Carlton Lane that the speed of light is an observable fact and that Einstein constructed a thory to explain that fact. The FACT that gravity exists is not a theory-- our attempt to explain it is a theory. You are confusing observable facts with theories to explain those observations.
ID is just silly stuff - what is design and where did it come from - not from God, since it is one of his/her tools - so where did God come from? And how do you define design? Was God designed? How did God come to know it? You get the drift here - ID doesn't stand up to scrutiny as a definition - too bad - it turns out that those ID folks don't really like intellectual debate as much as they claim to.
WHY?

One can always ask "Why?" for any claim, theory, statement, law, etc. scientific or otherwise. Therefore, one can never give an ultimate answer in any human endeavor. Parents often silence their child's "Why?" with "Because I say so!"; the persistent child can reply "Why do you say so?" etc. ad infinitum. Those who believe in God may try to stop "whys" with "Because God says so" or "God made it that way", again, the persistent can ask "Why did God make it that way?" yielding the answer "because He did" yielding the question "Why?" followed by "because He did" etc. ad infinitum, again. 

 Science tries to avoid the problem by saying it is only involved in trying to answer "How?" questions rather than "Why?" questions; yet, "Why?" questions inspire advances in science. For example, in physics, early on, the question was "Why do bodies fall?" (apples for Newton?). The answer became "because of gravity" (Newton's law of gravitation?). Einstein answered the "Why Newton's law?" with "because mass curves space" (and Newton accelerated upward to meet the non-accelerating, apple). Physics isn't yet able to answer "Why does mass curve space?"; but, when and if it ever does find an answer, one can then ask "Why?" (why this way and not some other way). Those who believe in God have their ready answer "because God made it so" still leaving the persistent with "Why did God make it so?". The theists (Darwn seems to have been one) are satisfied with "It's the will of God.", but bona fide scientists have the continuing great fun (responsibility?) that comes in following the paths opened by "why" questions. Had scientists stopped with Newton's law of gravitation or "because God made it so", we would not have General Relativity and all the beauty, wonders, etc. of our universe discovered therefrom.

I doubt if an infinite God will ever lose patience (a characteristic of finite beings) with perpetual "Whys?", especially if such an infinite being set things up that way in order for us to be perpetually (infinitely) entertained. The non-theists (atheists?) can still enjoy the great entertainment if they don't spend all their time trying to show the entertainment or its source is a hoax. How great the difference in joy between those trying to prove its all a hoax and those searching for all the truths of our universe.
Irreducible Complexity is hocus-pocus, not science.
Always knew I had a problem making myself clear, but R. Humphrey let me discover that my writings are so muddy that some can read them and think they say exactly the opposite of what I was saying. Again, R. Humphrey's comment consisting of corrections to my comments about facts and theory is a replication (not a contradiction) of the ideas I was attempting to convey. I found some making comments  trying to dismiss everything as theory (or by "confusing theory with fact") and felt a need to show the error therein. However, in a sense, one can no more point out such an error to anyone in any situation than one can answer the question "Why?", because one can ignore what you are claiming is an error by saying that "that's only your idea" (theory?). One need not even accept an obvious, logical contradiction as an error by claiming to be using a different logic (different from yours or the commonly accepted logic) wherein the contradiction does not arise or is meaningless. 

 People in a free society are allowed to claim, believe, anything they want, for example, the WRONG claim in our universe, that objects with mass in our universe can move faster than the maximum speed of light, but they may suffer from dire consequences they bring upon themselves by so doing. Some may (are allowed to) believe (claim) that if they jump in front of a car (large bullet) moving at high speed, they will not be harmed; however, this claim is not a very good operating principle for our universe. Furthermore, if they tell others in advance of their plan to jump, others, especially those whose knowledge of the workings of our universe is different, have the right to try to stop them, prevent their error (as others see it) from causing them great harm. Great harm can come in our universe by confusing theory with fact. (Sorry, R.Humphrey, my earlier writings did not make this clear to you.)
 Finally, Eistein's Special Relativity provides all a way to distinguish that which is relative (explanations, theories, etc.) from that which is absolute, not relative (facts, events, etc.). Some felt that if time and distance (consdered absolutes for so many generations) were relative, as Special Relativity shows and our universe confirms, then there is nothing absolute (sacred?). They, of course, were WRONG and Special Relativity helps us to see some of the absolutes of our universe some of which we were not aware of before Special Relativity. Einstein's General Relativity added even more beauty and wonder for us in our universe.
 Evolution is a theory that is very hard to disprove.Darwin is only the first part of this idea.He is credited with its inception.He laid the groundwork with observation not guess work and conjecture. 

  When Creationists can show me by observation that God created anything only then will I listen to what they have to say.
Three is not one shred of hard evidence that proves evolution. There are presently many hundreds of credible scientists and more coming over almost daily, that have taken a 180-degree turn away from evolution, and are now fully embracing and teaching “Young Earth Creationism.” How is this possible? These men and woman were intellectually honest enough to weigh the evidence and even though it had metaphysical implications, they were not afraid to take a stand for the truth. They all have web sites and are easy to find.

I have viewed or attended numerous scientific lectures conducted by notable physicists, zoologists, molecular biologists etc… showing the evolutionary model verses the creation model and there is no contest. In an unbiased court of law, evolution does not stand a chance of winning.

Sadly most people accept old worn out traditions and the words of others rather that seek out the evidence for their own self. The tables are turning daily revealing the truth about the origin of life.

What we now know about the irreducible complexity of life within one human cell provides more than enough evidence to send the antiquated thoughts of a misguided young man and the H.M.S. Beagle the ship that carried him, to a permanent watery grave.
We (mankind) have used scientific research to explain many things that were once mysterious. However, although science has helped us explain much of the "how" of creation, it has never attempted to answer the "why" of creation. As humans we have a need to know the reason why we live. Only our diverse religious beliefs attempt to answer and give us a reason for our existance. There will always be a need for humans to learn about both the how and the why. I have no problem with a high school teacher teaching broad concepts of both and even the teachers own personal ideas should be allowed.
There are 10s of thousands of evolutionary scientists, moreover, they constitute the top tiers among scientists.  The creationists - with EXTREMELY FEW exceptions - constitute the VERY LOWEST TIERS.  Jonathan Wells, William Dembski, David Berlinski, Dwayne Gish, John Pendleton - these guys are not scientists at all by ANY reasonable definition of the term.

People who have a comic book undestanding of science are quick to believe that evolution is "on the ropes" or a "theory in crisis."  they can only believe this because they are forming opinions in an area where they have done nothing remotely resembling an honest day's research on the subject.
Not everyone has 20:20 vision. Redesign your web pages to allow users to increase font size or zoom in.
Sadly, some people would rather spout nonsensical firm convictions as if they had done an honest day's homework on the subject.

Self-deluded people think they understand evolution well enough to criticize it.  They would be more worthy of respect, if they just said, "Well, I don't understand it and I don't feel like putting the effort into understanding it, but I reject it out of hand anyway."  This, at least, would be an honest appraisal of the intellectual effort they have invested.
Listening (Humility Trumps Arrogance)

An absolute fact of our universe appears to be that humans make errors and while it seems safe to say that no human is ALWAYS RIGHT, it also appears that humans are not ALWAYS WRONG either. The cliche "pearls of wisdom can come from the mouths of babes, fools, and drunks" seems to fit very well with what is trying to be conveyed herein. 

 Experts, people in their field of expertise, often make terrible (even able to be called "foolish") mistakes. The famous ERRORS of Einstein in physics are perfect examples. The errors of those eminent physicists claiming Einstein's Special Relativity was foolish (self-contradictory) were found to be the self-contradictory ones, etc..
 One may not wish to take the time to listen to "babes etc." and one may be willing to take the risk of missing some truth coming therefrom, but that does not mean "babes etc." can't uncover truth. Those who believe everything comes about only by CHANCE (this seems to include atheists) will surely have to listen to "babes etc." if they want others to take their dedication to CHANCE (atheism?) seriously.
Larry and some others in his boat, Get a WEBTV II. It zooms twice and is cheapest way to the WEB I know. I had to get one because the original WEBTV was very inconsistent about bringing up COSMIC LOG and sending comments.
As far as the age of this there no telling how old it is. but read all the history books you can find and you will be really confused. history was written by the powers that be. and theres all kinds of contridictions. this should tell something. how long man been on this earth?
I can't remember who said this but it has been said that scientists are climbing a mountain of knowledge will find theologians on the top waiting for them. I believe scientists are climbing a mountain and will find the book of genesis on top. Unfortunately, most of them have the wrong climbing equipment and will never get there.
There is a difference between teaching something as fact and teaching about something.

We should be teaching ABOUT the things that impact life on this planet.  Both evolution and religion impact our lives on this planet (if you don't think religion impacts our lives just take a quick look at the Middle East).  We should be teaching students ABOUT both of them.

Have faith that our kids will be smart enough and strong enough to deal with the reality of both.  Don't blind them to information they need because of arrogance.
Here's the problem I have with the teaching of evolution in our schools. They are very plainly teaching it as FACT. It is only a THEORY with no hard proof (show me evolution from one species to another). Teach both ideas, let the children decide which is best for them.
Smart people make mistakes.  We have a very effective process, though, for working out way out of those mistakes.  That process is called science.  It doesn't work overnight the way various religions promise.  In fact, it's downright antithetical to certain virulent forms of Christianity - those that apply the same techniques that used-car salesmen apply.  "You gotta take this deal RIGHT NOW! You could die any second and then what would happen to YOUR ETERNAL SOUL!"

So, no, science isn't going to save anyone from the boogie man.  It's a process and it takes time.  If you want answers right now that are unchecked and uncheckable, then certainly religion is the way to go.

But evolution has been checked over and over and over.  It has been subjected to tests over and over and over.  And it has never been disproved.  Not once.  The fact that people who haven't even bothered to check don't know about these tests, doesn't mean they haven't occurred.  

Evolution only requires faith from people who don't understand it.  Those of us who actually have done an honest day's homework on the subject have arrived at belief through understanding, not faith.
The problem with "teaching the controversy" is that it can't be done honestly without offending biblical literalist. Can you imagine public school science teachers being allowed to get up and start ripping Genesis to shreds? Could they tell the kids about supernova SN1987, which has been directly measured at around 169,000 light years away, when Biblical genealogies say the earth is only about 6,000 years old? Will they then be required to teach the hairbrained counterarguments, which involve changes in the speed of light and Star-Trek type space warps? There's no way to objectively teach the controversy without stepping on someone's religious toes.
Evolution is a theory which has provided a foundation, not just for the life sciences, but for all branches of science. Geology, cosmology, meteorology & biology are all more clearly understood due to the underlying framework provided by evolutionary theory. We are an evolving species on an evolving planet in an evolving universe.

Monotheism posits a devolutionary universe; one that decays from the "perfection" initially imposed by a creative Fairy. We should be devolving creatures on a devolving world in a devolving universe accordimg to this theory.

Which theory does the evidence overwhelmingly support?

Evidence from all branches of scientific endeavor demonstrate that the theory of evolution is as sound as the theory of gravity and the theory of electromagnetism. New evidence that was not available in Darwin's day, such as genetics and molecular biology, continue to demonstrate the soundness of evolutionary theory and expand its applicability to new areas of scientific exploration.

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Should comparative religion be taught in public schools? Of course it should. But who would scream loudest if actual comparisons between different religions, sects & cults were taught in public classrooms?

I have little doubt that preachers from different sects would be chasing teachers with fire & pitchfork; each claiming that "Their Fairy" was being defamed and some "Other Fairy" was being promoted.

--------------

But the most important questions to ask onself are something along these lines:
Is the "Supreme Being" that I choose to worship worthy of that worship?
Is possible for any being that demands worship to be worthy of worship?
Is this "Supreme Being" good or evil? Not whether it claims to be good or evil; but whether the behavior attributed to this being & followers would be considered good or evil by a disinterested observer.

By these standards, I would have to oppose & reject any "Supreme Being" proposed by my fellow man for being unworthy of worship and for being essentially evil. The records of the behaviors of the "Big Fairy", presented by their own believers in their holy texts,  demonstrate that any person of active morals would be required to reject these evil, arrogant & destructive supernatural beings if they existed.

Let me also propose that the reason so much energy is spent (by those who deny their place in the real universe) opposing evolution is simply fear: fear of not being "special", fear of their own arrogance being proven unfounded, fear of being responsible for their own actions with no "Fairy" left to justify or forgive them, no god to blame.
"Scientific smorgasbord on the Web," is another one of Alan's blogs appearing today.   One section deals with Neanderthal man in Asia and Europe, with archaeological dating placing him in Spain less than 25,000 years ago, and dying out there from a prolonged dry spell in the area.  Sadly there are few comments from the public for Alan there, unlike this one, which has a surfeit of opinions.

Science has shown we are not Neanderthals or his descendants, but has also proven our ancestors were in Africa long before his time and may (I said "may" on
purpose) have helped eliminate him.  We may also have interbred with him, leading to his eventual demise.  The biblical Eve, whose mitochondria we all share, could have been one of his kind (which would help to explain Cain's exile 'East of Eden,' and his wife and children found there).

Our African origins are accepted well by science in general.  Progress can be traced back many millenia, from our use of simple tools to our discovery of fire, then the wheel, astronomy, vaccination, atomic energy, and so on.  Darwin looked at many forms of life in his voyages, and gradually formed the idea that one form of life could over millions of years could change into another.  Look at a chicken skeleton and you will see the reflection of a dinosaur skeleton.  Darwin did not say that one day a tyrannosaurus rex laid an egg and out hatched a chicken.  He did say that the finches on the Galapagos Islands, separated from other finches on the mainlands, all showed shorter and stronger beaks and bred those characteristics into future generations as they adapted to different conditions on the Islands related to their feeding abilities.  They still flew from tree to tree as all finches do because there were trees on the Islands.  Had the trees not been there, the finches would have developed bigger and stronger legs and their wings would have become smaller and weaker.  Everything evolves,  that is, it changes to suit the times, the geography, the physics of being, the light, the dark, the tropics, the arctic.  Even ideas evolve, and can be traced backwards through time to find the germinal idea that opens life to those who are the seekers amongst us.
DesEmery,

I appreciate your philosophical viewpoint. I truly feel sorry for people who are trapped by their dogma and no longer have the ability to be a seeker (both evolutionist and religious zealots alike).  Darwin was a seeker.  I don't have to agree with his conclusions to know that he had a true thirst for knowledge and understanding.  Our time on this earth is short, and it's a shame more people don't take the time to smell the roses.  My belief in God and an afterlife give me hope and encouragement in a world that is all too often dark.  

For those who have no hope, knock and the door will be opened, seek and you shall find.
Evolution has been taught in schools and universities for the last 100 years, creation science and inteligent design have not. Why then are more and more people rejecting evolution? We could blame the poor state of science education, but we would be fooling ourselves.

In business, if your products are not selling, and your competitor's are, then there is probably something wrong with your product, and maybe people no longer trust you!

People have good reason to be skeptical of evolution.

Consider the history of this "science". Piltdown man. Nebraska man. Even National Geographic got fooled recently. Every so often a creature that supposedly died out millions of years ago is found to be living with little or no change from its ancient form. (Guess he forgot to evolve with the rest of his buds)

Take a look at any evolution text. You'll find a lot of "scientist believe" and "could be" and "may have been" but very few hard facts.

Even the "facts" are suspect, however. Suppose you read about some bone fragments that are 1 million years old. Are they? If you ask, you will find that there is a margin of error. Ask how sure they are about the figure. They will say, when pressed, that they are, say, 90% sure. Could it be older? Yes, they will admit. Could it be younger? Yes, they will admit, but we don't think so. Ask again, has the dating method you use ever given erroneous findings? Again, they will say yes. Ask again, do all labs give the same answer for the same item? The answer is no, but that's good. Why? Because if one lab doesn't give you the answer you want, you can always find one that will.

Bottom line: What is presented as fact is often a guess. There is a word for that: "SWAG".

Of course, you can turn off your brain and cling to your faith in evolution. Don't be skeptical. Accept unquestioningly whatever the "experts" tell you. After all, it's "science".
For those who don't know the meaning of scientific theory:

In science, a **theory** is a proposed description, explanation, or model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation. It follows from this that for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition.
The basic law of biology is life can only come from life.  That is observed, what is not observed is inorganic chemicals bonding together and forming a reproducing cell.  I would appreciate some intellectual honesty from evolutionists and have them admit that they still live in faith that someday science will have the answer.  Oh, I'm sorry, faith is irrational, then I quess it's irrational to believe that life rose by itself unguided. 

  Or how about the fossil record, how many times do we hear the phrase "unchanged for millions of years"?

Example; rhinoceres and alligators supposedly haven't changed but for some reason their next door neighboors the monkeys were busy evolving into man. How can one species evolve and the other remain unchanged?  And that's not even touching how fossils form in the first place. 

  As far as astronomy is concerned, the scientific communities reaction to Alton Arp's research on quasars speaks volumes. 

  Finally, all those who think they can combine evolution with God's word should study the old testament and see how the Lord dealt with those who led His people astray.  

Firm believer in God's word and the scientific method.
People keep making claim after claim without thinking.  Things don't have to change at the same rate - and there are REASONS FOR THAT.  It's actually a prediction of evolution and Charles Darwin was well aware of it, since he wrote about it Origin of Species.

We don't know that life can only come from life.  That's a supposition.  But it's irrelevant to the point.  Biological evolution - what Charles Darwin talked about - only takes place after life exists in one or a few forms.  Once again the Darwin doubters demonstrate they have firm opinions based on ignorance of the subject.

Finally, Piltdown and Nebraska man have been addressed previously.  Neither, ever informed a theory of evolution, both were doubted by scientists, both were eventually proven false by real scientists.

Evolution marches forward, but creationism is now known to be an even greater stuidity than it was 150 years ago.  That people don't know that just means they have gone to school and haven't learned anything about the subject.
The greatest irony is that I can imagine Darwin supporting the idea that religious thinking (IE. the belief in an all powerful omnipotent being) is evidenced to have given some advantage to the survival of homo sapien sapien as shown by the spread and obvious success of the species across just about every imaginable niche on earth.

Or, on the other hand, maybe religious thinking is the factor limiting the survival of the species much as the population of a pack of rats is controlled by the amount of available food in their environment.  Take away the food (rational thought) and the population either dies off or an individual in the population has a mutation that allows them and their offspring to survive on fertalizer or something.  (The fittest outcompete their neighbors just because they can due to a random mutation, not because they "believe" or try harder or are meaner and tougher or that they are being taken care of by the Great Pumpkim in that exclusive gated cummunity in heaven.

I have a great idea, how about 95% of those responding in this thread learn what the term "survival of the fittest" means and how to apply it when referencing Darwin, evolution and science.  No, well then, I think the problem is even more basic than this, go learn what is meant by science and what it is and is not.

Since taking this advice takes work and effort I don't expect to see you guys in the classroom - you are to busy rapturing yourselves in the bathroom.
What’s so funny about religion and science is that they are the same in the fact that humans created and manipulate both. We have science books and the Bible, all written by humans, there for, all tragically flawed. But that is fine, as long as we keep searching for a more accurate truth in both religion and science.
So you won't think I am off topic, this is about the cultural debate itself rather then Darwinism.  I think the debate is a religious one, Darwin just a straw dog.  Abortion is abother one.  There are many.

The debate is over religion.  It seems to be science vs religion, because the major debaters don't want to admit the real bone of contention, religion vs religion.  The dominate one in the argument is 'religion' and the other side, called 'science' or percieved as antireligion by many, could be called the natural way.

Native American religion is sometimes called that.  I know this argument is really religion vs religion because I started researching Native American religion.  That is the real 'debate'.
Just a thought. When churches let erroneous simple tenets like the word ( soul)go on to be believed as being something spiritual,then it doesnt surpise me that evolutionists scoff at christianity. For instance the word (soul) means literally ,(living being)from the hebrew word (nephesh). If no one believes me,get a lexicon.Without going into detail,this mere fact negates a person,s ability of coming back from the dead.This is exactly what satan would have you believe. TSK TSK TSK.
What's all the fuss about???  Let's quit "teaching" notions of origins altogether in school.  There's enough material that we do know to worry about what we don't.  To equate evolution with the scientific method and then call evolution science is intellectually dishonest at best.  Evolution is one hypothesis or notion of origins!!! That's all.  To restrict the weaknesses of this hypothetic notion from being taught in the American public schools (or anywhere for that matter) is not to promote education but indoctrination like was done in Soviet Russia. Let's teach only half the alphabet and see how well our children’s function latter. Why can't all reasonable notions of origins be presented or none at all. Why do we allow unverifiable ideas to be equated with the scientific method of experimentation and then call them fact while at the same time banning other reasonable unverifiable ideas?  After all we're already here and how we got here won't be changed by our debate.  

I never cease to be amazed at how threatened the evolutionists are by the idea of a creator.  All notions come down to belief anyway.  Evolution just says there was no god involved.  What's so wrong with acknowleging the fact that this is beyond the reach of proof which relegates it to the realm of the philosophical.  No human saw the beginning of the world so far as we know and this event is not repeatable by us yet evolutionists insist that evolution is fact like gravity.  I'm reminded of Rodney King and the LA riots, "can't we all just get along."  Apparently we don't have real actual problenms to solve in society if we have enough time to worry about this but then again what we believe about how we got here impacts every other area of our lives.
"I never cease to be amazed at how threatened the evolutionists are by the idea of a creator."

The ToE doesn't say anything about a creator. It's been stated before , evolution explains how we got here not why. Hell, you can believe aliens are the why, I don't care, just don't dismiss evolution because you're ignorant about the subject.

Also, If ID is taught in schools as science then why not bring alchemy back and teach it along with chemistry? Teach the bloody controversy. Let the kids see both sides. Full Metal Alchemist should be on the Discovery Science channel.


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