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Quantum fluctuations in space, science, exploration and other cosmic fields... served up regularly by MSNBC.com science editor Alan Boyle since 2002.

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Revisiting the gospel truth

Posted: Monday, December 18, 2006 9:15 PM by Alan Boyle

As a metaphor for the process of seeking out the truth, the idea of "separating the wheat from the chaff" goes back at least as far as the Gospel of Matthew. Over the past couple of days, readers have stirred up their share of wheat and chaff in response to my report on the apocryphal tales surrounding the biblical accounts of Jesus' life.

Most of those tales - highlighted in the National Geographic documentary "Secret Lives of Jesus" - are definitely chaff, created in the first four centuries of the Christian era. As scriptural scholar Ben Witherington told me, they're the ancient equivalent of Harlequin romances, or you might compare them to the popular "Left Behind" series of novels: that is, riffs on Christian scripture that flesh out the basics with plenty of fiction.

So are such also-ran gospels a fit subject for religious study - or scientific study, for that matter? Read on for a sampling of opinions from believers and skeptics:

Bill: "Are you purposefully trying to provoke Christians? Your statements in this piece are inflammatory and, in my opinion, flat-out wrong. For instance:

"'A lot of these ancient stories have come to be considered heretical.'

"This implies that it took a long time for these errant works to be considered aberrant, when the earliest church fathers didn’t at all consider them correct.

"'...illustrates that the gospel story has been added to, fine-tuned and pruned through the centuries.'

"Again, this is flat-out wrong. The earliest scrap of the Gospel of John dates from about 125 A.D., a papyrus fragment from Egypt with five verses on it. You are merely restating the standard Christian-bashing position that our text is unreliable. And that just isn’t so. It’s one of the most reliable texts in all of history, based on the amount of evidence and copies available. I suggest you read 'The Case for Christ' by Lee Strobel. Claiming that the Gospel story underwent any significant change since about 100 A.D., let alone 'for centuries,' without any countering viewpoint, is reprehensible.

"At this point in your story, your bias and inflammatory language stopped me from reading any further. True, Fox News is probably biased, but MSNBC shouldn’t be one to cast stones. Come on, at least once in a while why not give the opinion of a knowledgeable, articulate expert who holds the opposing view."

Ned Goldreyer: "With all due respect, what are the gospels doing as a topic in a science column?  Granted, this is the time of year when journalists either pander to the fairy-tale crowd or face losing eyeballs, but even so, couldn't you have chosen something even slightly closer to what we generally regard as scientific?  I love your clarification of the three kings as 'actually, astrologers.'  Actually, they are characters in piece of fiction and quite probably did not exist at all.  Or did they?  That would be a scientific question.  Hypothesis - The three kings did not exist.  Prove or disprove.  What exactly is your scientific training?  It is not mentioned in your profile.  I would bet good money that you have no scientific credentials at all.  Although I feel fully justified in asking you issue a public apology for this misuse of your position, at the very least, I would appreciate a response defending your reasons for writing on this subject."

I told Ned in an e-mail that I've chatted over the years with a fair number of scriptural scholars - admittedly, on hot-button topics such as the Gospel of Judas and the rehabilitation of Mary Magdalene - and that we've historically put these stories in the Science section (along with stories about the founding of Rome, and so on). The intersection of textual and archaeological studies with popular culture is part of our bread and butter here, whether we're talking about the Bible or Newton. I also said I make no claim to being a trained scientist - just a trained journalist (whatever that means).

My use of the word "actually" is just meant to say that Matthew was actually referring to astrologers rather than kings in Matthew 2:1. Yet another reader focused upon that reference to the Three Kings in his comment:

L. Mark Thomasson: "The Bible does not mention how many 'Kings' or 'Wise Men from the East' there were, simply that the gifts were gold, frankincense and myrrh. Some assume that there were three Kings because of the three gifts - not likely.  Another common misconception is that an 'eye for an eye' justifies retribution, but is actually meant to limit the punishment imposed.  Many other misconceptions abound - but God said it best: 'For a lack of knowledge (ignorance) my people perish.' We are responsible to seek God out and study his Word."

Terry Brandli: "With all this talk about the season, and historical Jesus, too bad at least one of these shows doesn't explain the facts that Jesus Christ wasn't born on December 25th. And that the most accurate date is April 19.  The early Christian church was more worried about gaining members then about being truthful. They picked a prominent pagan Roman holiday as the day to celebrate the birth of Christ, hoping that would help entice more people into their church. Another thing I think that is bad about the way the Christmas holiday is celebrated is the fairy tale about Santa Claus.  To tie the birth of mankind's savior with a big commercial lie like Santa Claus and teach it to every little kid in the country, is not a good way to teach the message of Jesus Christ and the Bible. Evidently, the commercial interests and organized religion can't handle the truth."

Greg Charles: "Every few years, people like to drag out these so-called new truths about the Bible. The fact is they aren't new and there are few facts to be found in them. There were lots of weird people back then, like there is today, who like to twist the scriptures to make them conform to what they want to believe. That is why these teachings were rejected at the Council of Trent. They are not true. A true follower of Jesus not only believes what is written, but obeys it. When we do what the Bible says, great things happen. I have seen lots of phony things, but I have also seen the true power of God. I have seen and experienced many miracles, healings, casting out of demons, etc. Some of the things I've seen are medically documented. I bring this up because in the book of Mark it says that these signs will follow those that believe. They will lay hands on the sick and they will recover, they will cast out demons, etc. Jesus meant what he said."

Matthew: "Have you ever read Irenaeus' 'Against the Heresies'? I wish you would before you make assertions of this nature:

"'Did we say four Gospels? Actually, in the early centuries of the Christian church, there were quite a few more than Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.'

"Yes, there were other, heretical gospels that circulated, but they were written by Gnostics, not eyewitnesses and associates of the apostles.  Please read this book. If you would like more information you can contact Concordia Theological Seminary in Fort Wayne, Indiana."

Reading Irenaeus is tough sledding, but scholars have used such critiques to date the ancient apocryphal works. For example, Irenaeus' scornful reference to the Gospel of Judas in "Against the Heresies," which dates to about A.D. 180, has been cited as evidence that the controversial Gnostic work is at least that old.

Even the evangelist Luke says that "many" people drew up accounts of New Testament events, based on information "handed down to us." That would imply there were plenty of secondhand stories floating around even in Luke's day.

Here's a little equal time for the Gnostics:

Kathleen Mary Hensley: "To base my spirituality and religion on a book and/or a church solely is not something I can choose to do; while a lay person scientifically and religiously, I have thought deeply about the nature of the universe and have come to conclusions about the nature of reality due to reason, science, intuition, religion and spiritual experiences. For me, the universe is a vast puzzle wherein both spiritual consciousness and physical matter/energy co-exist. We do not yet have or see all the pieces nor understand all the connections, but time will tell - and someday we will understand our nature, the nature of the universe (cosmos) and God's nature (which is bound to be far more surprising than any of us can now imagine!).  Someday, the entire puzzle will fit together and make a whole picture - this puzzle is our very lives, our meaning and we must fill in all the blank spaces between matter, energy and spirit to understand who we truly are, what our souls are and what God is. This will take centuries to happen. We are yet children in grade school who think ourselves adults.

"As a Gnostic Christian, not only in philosophy but in experience, I do not believe it is the historical Jesus that matters to me, for the physical universe does not matter, it is an illusion, a matrix of energy and matter that is both interesting and distracting - and very, very temporary. It is the spiritual reality of Jesus fascinates me ... does he still exist, can he influence me now? what is his nature ? I found he does exist, he does influence and his nature is sublime and divine.

"It is the spiritual realms that I find fascinating, and it is the experience of his presence, mystically, that proves his love and mercy for me - He is in all things, my friend and companion on the road. This experience I have had time and again.

"You, as a scientist, will say there is no such thing as mysticism or mystical experience - but are you sure ? do you know all the laws of the universe and consciousness, do you know how to weigh the spirit of a woman and measure the depths of my soul? Can you say with certainty that there is no spirit, no consciousness outside of the mind?  It is foolishness to think you do understand everything that is and can be ! We are a evolving species, evolving physically, emotionally, mentally and spiritually towards what end we do not know. No one person has all the facts, all the possibilities, all the truth.  It is not what we know in the 21st century that amazes me, it is what we do not know and what we can not yet even imagine that fascinates me. ..." 

Even Pontius Pilate asked the question, "What is truth?" The gospel truth was brought up by several of the correspondents:

Leroy: "It's always interesting to hear rationalizations and explanations from those whose futures would be better served were there no Jesus the Christ.  They simply can't afford for the true Gospel to be what it actually is - true. For, if it is true, then their fiery disposition is a certainty and not a myth.  Somehow, those odds just don't add up to common sense - do they?"

Harold Thomas: "I read your article entitled 'How the Gospel Story Grew in the Telling.' If I understand it correctly, it expresses what most of the liberal biblical scholars have said for years in reference to Christ and the origin of the Bible itself. That 'drum' has been beaten long and loud for many many years. But it reflects only one view of the issues. Why? Could it be that the alternative view places those that hold the liberal position squarely in the camp of infidels, agnostics and atheists - all of whom never believed one iota of the Bible for even one split second and all of whom never wanted to believe that there ever was a literal historical character called Christ in the first place? Many people have believed that if you repeat a lie long enough and with enough fervor it will come to be accepted as the truth by the masses of the human race. So the liberals shout the idea that the gospel story 'grew' (i.e., developed over many years) as the story was repeated from generation to generation.

"But history reveals that the gospel records that the early church accepted as 'inspired' and 'historically accurate' were all written within less than 100 years of the time the events they depict and describe actually took place. The authors of the four gospel narratives were known and recognized by the early church that received their writings. The Apostle John, speaking for himself and for the other apostles and inspired writers, says in reference to Christ and what had been written about Him this: 'That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life.'

"A significant number of the members of the church were 'eyewitnesses' along with the authors of the gospel narratives, and doubtless would have raised serious questions about any material in those narratives that might have been less than accurate accounts of the facts. In addition to this there were many nonbelievers alive who witnessed a significant amount of what the gospel narratives contained. Their writings support the accuracy of the biblical text and provide independant verification of the gospel narratives' historical reliablity.

"All in all, I would suggest that before you take it upon yourself to tell your readers 'How the Gospel Story Grew in the Telling' that you devote a little time and a little research in the area of biblical inspiration as well as works that deal with how we got the Bible and the current state of the biblical text. I would be willing to recommend a few works dealing with these issues by recognized competent conservative scholars. But even if you did consult these, I would still not feel very comfortable about a 'science editor' commenting on issues clearly outside his field of study."

At the end of all this winnowing, I was desperate for some redemption - and thankfully, a longtime Cosmic Log correspondent provided some welcome words:

Dennis McClain-Furmanski: "I've been a fan of Jesus history for most if my life. In fact I turned down a scholarship to the Methodist seminary at Valporaiso to follow a path that eventually led to becoming a scientist. It is very difficult to present the viewpoints of both belief and history without either attempting to reconcile them, or risk saying something that one side or the other finds insulting. Your article accomplishes this superbly. I can hardly recall ever seeing such a masterful presentation of even-handedness on this topic, and certainly never in the 'popular' media. More than ever, I applaud your work."

Feel free to continue the discussion in the comments section below, or by joining in the discussion in our online forum on the history behind religion.

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People like to quote the Bible when it's convenient. So shall I: John 14:12 "He who believes in me will also do the works I do and greater works than these will he do." Now, how many of you believers have healed the sick or raised the dead today? You haven't or you can't?

As I read the blog with comments, it comes to mind the two Sides mentioned in the book of Revelation. (And there truly is only Two Sides)

SIDE 1) Jesus = Light of the world...do you need or want a little light?? this blog sounds like we're groping for enlightment?? this is the condemnation, that light has come into the world but men LOVE  darkness....(John 3:19)

SIDE 2) Babylon = Confusion. (Rev 17:5) this city is started in Genesus 11. and their intention was to reach to heaven. Rev 17:1 calls her the great whore. The paid lover. One has one opinion, another has another opinion ... Confusion. They never investigated Jesus to get their Light.  

That is the genius of the writers of the bible, they knew the human frailties and needs. Also that to keep humanity in line and continue with the religion they pitted the human good vs evil, light vs dark. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. They knew as time marched on and humans progressed that knowledge would ultimately expalin and be able to research what they wrote.So there is the guilt, if you do not believe you are evil. I would bet there are many more non believers/agnostics, who are as moral and good than there are religious folks who preach the word but have tunnel vision, they have been brainwashed from birth striving for this eternal heavenly afterlife, that they surely will not see the heaven they seek with their hypocrisy. Confusion/light of the world, come on, can't you think for yourself and see the true light, that your soul/heart is the light and comfort, you need not have a man/preacher/priest interpret what GOD wants of humanity.

I have read the Bible from front to back and see it as a moral guide more than 'if i do not believe i will go to hell.'

Jesus was a wise man if he indeed stated what he is credited with in the Bible but,
GOD?

GOD is the very space you live in and the sky you live under, the time and space of the universe, energy, dark matter. But a vengeful creator, I do not believe.

The "light" of this world is a Yellow Dwarf Star, spectral type G2V, "God". In Ancient times it was "Apollo" or "Zeus" or "Ra" or "Amun" or ....
 It still astounds me that so many can't quite get it that the monotheistic "God", YHWH, of the ancient Hebrew tribe was worshipped as the one true god of Israel, as their lord and protector/punisher, out of the polytheistic gods of the time. That is why the Ancient Hebrew tribe's first commandment in the text of Exodus 20:1-17 in the New Revised Standard Version is as follows:

   "Then God spoke all these words: I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me."  

    Because there were many gods in those times!

    Because they are all imaginary and make-believe.

   Happy Winter Solstice 2006!
 

Hum. Last time I researched this topic, I believe Revelations was written by John of Patmos about a bad dream he had, not John the Son of Zebedee. Oh, by the way, The Course in Miracles and the Book of Morman were also inspired of God and at least we have first person documentation for those; more than the Bible.
The main reason no one contradicted anything about the Bible prior to this century is that the church would kill anyone in opposition..Remember the 5th commandment, because the church never did. Anyway why would a high intelligence go to the details of letting everybody suffer so he can torture the ''BAD''ones after he ressucitates them and allow the ''Good''ones to have what they are not allowed to have while in this life..?
Wow...lot of different debates and topics being thrown around in here! Talking about the validity of Christianity, I find Acts 6:17-42 very interesting. Peter and the other apostles were going to be condemned to death for preaching about the risen Christ. A Pharisee named Gamaliel stood up and addressed their accusers and said something very profound. He spoke of other so called "messiahs" and their followers - Judas the Galiilean, Theudas, and others. When they were killed their followers dispanded adn the movement died out. He told them to leave the apostles and Peter alone because if their ways are of man then it will go away on its own, but if its of God, then you will not be able to stop it. This is very interesting. Peter, who was terrified and denied Christ was now preaching about His ressurection in the very city Christ ahd been killed! What could cause a change like this? Why would this scared man who denied Jesus eventually follow Christ all the way to his own death?

For those people who have trouble understanding the Bible, I can only say that understanding of the Bible is given by God, not by man. Faith comes by hearing and reading the Word. Also, as hard as this will be for many who read this, God lead the writing of the Bible. The apostles did not have to be at the manger, to know exactly what happened at the birth of Christ. God gave the direction (and utterance) for those words to be written. And a 80-90 (or more?) year old apostle John may well have writtten the whole Book of John, and Revelations during his stay on the island of Patmos.

As far as the SYMBOLIC date of Jesus Christ birthday ... it may well have been in the fall. The day the Lamb of God was born on is not as important as to the reason why He came (Save His people from their sins) or how important his death was (the before mentioned Lamb ... a propititation for our sins, a washing away of the sins).
This message will probably bring condemnation from many out there; those who state the gospels are made up, etc. Remember that the prophecies of the Old Testament came true in Jesus' life and death. The jews at the time of Christ were looking for a man more like King David, to bring their country back to the forefront of the world, to shake off their Roman oppressors, etc.  In reality, Jesus came to shake off oppression, but it was all about the spiritual, not the physical.  The same will happen at His second coming.  We christians, and a whole lot of non-christians are looking for a return that will be much different than how it will really happen.  Thankfully, God will shorten the time for his elect.

I have begun to digress, however.  Praise God, I  hope this message will reach who He needs it to.  Read the Word!  Follow after God, not man!  God Bless, and Merry Christmas!

Faith is a gift of God and none of the critics of religon have that gift. Let them read "Faith and Reason" an encyclical by Pope John Paul II.

Its funny...

Now I hear a new hype put out by Christian Reconstructionist..."Oh the true gospels were only those written by those who actually saw Jesus" Judas saw Jesus (Gospel of Judas) Thomas Saw Jesus (His Gospel he wrote)And many others did too and they wrote their accounts and Gospels about Jesus which are just as good as the 4 in the Bible now.

As in the case of the Revelation of St. Peter, the reason only 4 gospels got into the bible was a popularity contest. Many letters of Paul were not included and don't you think Mark and the others wrote more than just what they have in the Bible? If I had been with Jesus I would have wanted to write it all down and I doubt that 4 gospels is the whole story. In fact, 2 of the gospels were lifted directly from the famous Gospel "Q".

Commentary by Magnum

Well, i guess that John Lennon's song Imagine will be a very nice contribution to all those deep thoughts about religions and beliefs. Remember this?

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky

Imagine there's no countries,
It isn't hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace.

I'm sure you all know the rest.
Happy and prosperous 2007!

Why aren't we discussing the factual merits of Homer's account of the Illiad and the Odyssey? You can find many examples throughout Greek and Roman history where these accounts were treated as a true telling of the actions of men and the Gods, yet today most people dismiss Homer's work as mere storytelling.

In my eyes, there is no difference between the Odyssey and the New Testament. One is simply backed by a more popular organization and still held as truth.

Faith is nothing more than belief in something without actual proof. There should be no reconciliation between science and religion because the concept of faith undermines the very foundation that good science is built upon.

I find any argument about the true history of Jesus very frustrating because too many people begin with the assumption that he is the son of God. That is no empirical way to get at the truth of the matter.

The New Testament says the last words of Jesus were, "My god, my god, why have you forsaken me?" Goes to state of mind. He was NOT under the delusion that he was a son of God. The term "son of theos" comes from Augustus, adopted son of the deified Julius Caesar. In Romans 1:3, Paul says Jesus was born of the seed of David (meaning he had a HUMAN father) and "was declared Son of God by the resurrection from the dead." This is the same way that a Roman Emperor became a deity. He was DECLARED a deity by proclamation of the Senate. At least 90% of the New Testatment story is an attempt to create a fictional version of Jesus that could compete with (a) the gods of Greek and Roman mythology and (b) the Emperor cult. At the moment of his death, a Roman Centurion said, "Surely this man was son of God." A Roman - and an officer with the rank of centurion - said Jesus died as noble a death as any Roman, and thus deserved the same title as the Emperor. Does anybody really think that happened? Crucifixion is designed NOT to allow the victim to die a noble death. When Julius died, a comet appeared in the sky, which his followers said was his soul ascending to the skies. To keep up, early Christians said there was a star in the sky above the birth of Jesus. These are just STORIES, with no credibility or basis in fact. The CON - the next step above a lie - is saying that faith in God allows you to know the truth. All of these stories were invented decades after the real Jesus was dead, to feed the public's appetite for an End of the World cult that promised an imminent Resurrection of all the dead. It didn't happen. End of story.
Here are a few words, in response to your solicitation of opinion on this vital matter.  This is a Christian plea that runs counter to popular Evangelical opinions on it.


I believe that if Jesus is not God, then we, of all creatures, are most to be pitied.  If our Creator did not mercifully come to us to give us guidance, then nothing we do matters.  I believe He has come more than once, and that He will come again.  The alternative is all the possibilities of randomicity in the infinity of Time.  I believe our mission is more urgent than that.  We must find an alternative to Earth.


Mankind is in perils from powers and principalities.  “Whom Satan would destroy, first he makes mad.” some wise man once said.  According to  Cowper, the wise writer who supported our ancestors in their struggle against the errors or The Church, that culminated with the St. Bartholomew Day massacre of Reformists and Jews:


"When nations are to perish in their sins,
'Tis in the Church the leprosy begins;"


Much evil has been done in the name of God.  I believe that we are under the control of the power we so loosely refer to as God, in ways we can not even imagine.  I believe that man is vital to God, because we are the knowing link between Him and His Creation.  I think it is our God-given business to “scientifically” expand our knowledge of God, His Creation, and our relationships to them.  I believe that is why I have a son in the rocket development business.  We are going out of this world.  Humanity must accept this mission.


It does not seem likely to me that our country could have got into the mess it’s now in without a higher than human hand in the matter.  President Bush has neither the knowledge nor the imagination to have created the mess we have in our military adventures.  I only hope he can see the need to seek safe havens for a human remnant somewhere off Earth, if humanity is to survive its own suicidal aggressive tendencies.  


The modest fumbling steps of our childhood in space will teach us the first lessons of what we must know to realize the universal destiny of humanity.  What we learn on our way to Mars, and beyond,  will be vital for our survival.  On the way to Deep Space, we must take and hold “high ground” beyond the reach of the violently irrational, who are willing to die to kill those who disagree with their religious/political beliefs.


We are thinking creatures, driven by our thoughts to explore.  Our religions tell us, Earth is not our home.  It is our incubator.  Some of us must be ready to live on another planet, before someone turns our incubator into an oven.
Human history is filled with myths. Myths contain "truths." They are the glue or commonly held beliefs which hold groups of people together. Whether Washington chopped down the cherry tree is not the "truth" of the story. The "truth" held by his countrymen is that he was a man of inegrity.

To make myths into literal facts is  a distortion. The "truth" underlying myths can be lost when mythical stories are read through a literal lens. For example, to read literally the stories of the birth of Jesus in the Gospels of Luke and Matthew requires acceptance of disputable and unsubstantiated "facts" such as the Roman census in Luke. The underlying "truth" or glue which the census conveys is that the writer of the Gospel of Luke wrote about something held in common by his group: Jesus was a descendant of David and was the promised Messiah who was to come from Bethlehem, the birthplace of David. The "truth" is not whether the census occurred or not. The "truth" is about a commonly held belief by a particular group of people in the latter part of the first century of the Common Era.  
church serves a purpose.  in absence of school, church teaches what is needed in the community.  in absence of autocratic cast systems, church serves as matchmaker. we all like jesus or other major symbol of virtue that is of course a male.  and so on and so it goes.

you must admit, church organizes and unifies.  it competes with modern technology and companies that are cut throat.  it survives because of simple faith and human spirit.  matchmaker.gettogether.net.industry never would dare to claim that it will be around in 30 years from now and it will never give you anything that closely resembles guarantee; furthermore, companies in the various industries that compete with organized religion only attempt to deliver the promise of a hope or love or truth that compares with your local institutionaled mass market god tax free building o plenty people hoping for sex and salvation.

you see the local service, while imperfect, contains real people who gather for a common purpose.


the problem with church is that they have not developed anything new in the last 2000 plus years.  they all think jesus is going to come to the year 2015 or whatever and save this world.  does jesus buy some nike's and chevy corvette and begin his work or what.  

my view is he is a powerful symbol that closely matches the new salvation or whatever.  as a symbol he accomplishes so much more than he ever did as a man. his angel without a doubt is a special angel, however, the new salvation requires a new beginning.  two baby angels so to speak, the last to walk out of heaven are here among us and represent the ones closest to god, weak without love, strong when loved and capable of a rare strength that all other angels fear when not ignorant.  they guard the gate to heaven, thier blocked in both hatred and love, their presense is obvious when you look at the world around you with patient, curious scrutiny.  their way to love is blocked.  their way to salvation is destoyed.  they walk among unloved.  their need is blatenly notices. yet everyone continues their own existence with no care, regard or help.

when everyone realizes they let salvation in the presense of these two angels starve for love, when everyone realizes all the love they sqaundered in their own ego pleasing world.  when everyone realizes that it was more important to have power, wealth, control, posession than to take the time to rescue these creatures, they will simply fall back into their routine and pray to god for help.

good luck,

I believe in God channeling messages in the energy of the sun.  I believe that Paul's Revelation in Chapter 9 (around verse 15) is still true today but we have to use mathematic abstraction methods to prove this.  Therefore, God is defined by science, SCIENTIFIC NOTATION DESCRIBES SAVING ALL OF MANKIND!  The Holy Spirit infused "new life" into my existing life on April 19th of this year (2008) but a date someone believes Jesus Christ was born in your posts.  The numerology of my personal life suggests me to be God's chosen "sixth angel of wrath" turning the pages of the Holy Bible to Revelations Chapter 10 (in the year 2010)!
IS DECEMBER 25TH A HOAX

It seems that every year at about Christmas time we see a rash of articles and letters to the editor in the newspapers discounting the fact that our Lord's birthday falls on Dec. 25.  Now some of these articles are by people who lay claim to the word Christian. Really I must ask, where is their Faith? When a non-Christian attacks the Faith, this a Christian can expect.

What can we say in favor of Dec. 25th as being the true birth date of our Lord. First of all let something be clarified. Scripture is believed by Christians to be divinely inspired. The date of Christ's birth is not quoted in it. There is not one word of scripture that is not for our enlightenment. No word of scripture is recorded for any other reason than to be conducive to our eternal salvation.  Dec. 25th as being Christ's birth date is not mentioned in it, therefore the exact date of His birth must be immaterial in so far as our eternal salvation is concerned. Nevertheless Tradition is strongly in favor of Dec. 25th as being the real date of our Lord's birth. Why? Let me ask a question. If the Church, or should I say the Apostles did not know the birth date of Jesus Christ, then how did they know the information that is contained in the first two chapters of St. Luke and the first two chapters of St. Matt?  Where would they have gotten this information if not from the mother of Jesus, who lived for many years after the death of our Lord? Besides the mother of Jesus having first hand knowledge of it, would she have kept the Church in the dark about it when she transmitted the account of His birth in such exactitude to them and also of St. John the Baptist. Another point can be brought to the fore: did not Joseph and Mary have to travel to the place of their birth to register for a census that was being taken of the whole Roman world. Would not the birth of Jesus have been recorded at that time? Of course it would. The Romans were meticulous at keeping records as is evident in scripture in Luke, Chapter II-V 1,2,3,4. III-V 1,2.  and also in the records of the temple. While it is true these records were lost to the world over the centuries, up until Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed in 70 AD by Titus the Roman General, these records were most likely available and were also more than likely available from the Roman archives.

Now in support of my thesis I am going to quote some pretty reliable personages that have made a great study of this. First a paragraph from "The Liturgical Year" by Abbot Gueranger, O.S.B. Chap. one. "The History of Christmas" Quote:
'The custom of celebrating the Solemnity of our Savior's Nativity by a feast or commemoration of  forty days' duration is founded on the holy Gospel itself; for it tells us that the Blessed Virgin Mary, after spending forty days in the contemplation of the Divine Fruit of her glorious Maternity, went to the Temple, there to fulfil in most perfect humility, the ceremonies which the Law demanded of the daughters of Israel, when they became mothers.
The Feast of Mary's Purification (Feb. 2) is, therefore, part of that of Jesus' Birth; and the custom of keeping this holy and glorious period of forty days as one continued Festival has every appearance of being a very ancient one, at least in the Roman Church. And firstly, with regard to our Savior's Birth on Dec.  25th, we have St. John Chrysostom (354-407 AD) telling us, in his Homily for this Feast, that the Western Churches had, from the very commencement of Christianity, kept it on this day. He is not satisfied with merely mentioning the tradition; he undertakes to show that it is well founded, inasmuch as the Church of Rome had every  means of knowing the true day of our Savior's Birth, since the acts of the enrollment, taken in Judea by command of Augustus, were kept in the public archives of Rome. The holy Doctor adduces a second argument, which he founds upon the Gospel of  St.  Luke, and he reasons thus; we know from the sacred Scriptures that it must have been IN THE FAST OF THE SEVENTH MONTH* that the priest Zachary had the vision in the Temple; after which Elizabeth, his wife, conceived St. John the Baptist: hence it follows that the Blessed Virgin Mary having, as the Evangelist St. Luke relates, received the Angel Gabriel's visit, and conceived the Savior of the world IN THE SIXTH MONTH of Elizabeth's pregnancy, that is to say, in March, the Birth of Jesus must have taken place in the month of December.'

* Lev. XXIII-V 24 and following verses. The SEVENTH MONTH(or Tisri) corresponded to the end of our September and beginning of our October.-Translator.

Now, since the above is evidence from the religious point I am going to quote a secular historian, a contemporary of Jesus Christ and the Apostles. In this quote I wish to show that in those days they also kept a set of public archives in the local provinces that were under Roman rule. The source is from the "Works of  Flavius  Josephus" Wars of the Jews, Book II, Chap. XVII, Paragraph 6.  'The others then set fire to the house of Ananias (high priest), and to the palace of (King) Agrippa and Bernice; after which they carried the fire to the place where the archives were reposited, and made haste to burn the contracts belonging to their creditors, and thereby to dissolve their debts:” I don't think I have to go any farther. These archives were on a pare with our County Recorders offices in these United States where all the local records are kept.  I could go on but I believe I have made my point so I rest my case.

A TABLE OF THE JEWISH MONTHS


In Josephus and others, with the SRO-Macedonian names Josephus gives them, and the names of the Julian or Roman months corresponding to them, out of the very learned Ezekiel  Spanheim, in Havercamp’s edition, Pg. 407, with some small improvements.

Hebrew names Syro-Macedonian Names Roman Names

1.  Nisan Zanthicus March and April
2. Jyar Artemisius April and May
3. Sivan Daeisus May and June
4. Tamuz Panemus June and July
5. Ab Lous July and August
6. Elul Gorpiaeus August and September
7. Tisri Hyperberetaeus September and October
8. Marchesvan Dius October and November
9. Casleu Appellaeus November and December
10.Tebeth Audynaeus December and January
11. Shebat Peritius January and February
12. Adar Dystrus February and March
( ) Veadar, or the Second Adar, intercalate
Seems to me the obvious differences in opinion make for good conversation but accomplish nothing.
How many who have posted have had their opinion changed since reading what someone else posted?
I would presume none.
We each hold dear what we believe.
2000 years have not changed that basic principle.
Some died willingly or were put to death without a choice simply because of what they belived.
I doubt a handful of those posting here would be willing to do so if it should come to that.
But it does make one feel good inside somehow, to know that others can read their opinions.

I believe Jesus, to use his Greek name, did not intend to establish a new religion. I also strongly believe  he was being literal when he said: 'Ye must be reborn', (or however it was translated) He meant that when you die, you come back. Reincarnation. There's no way you can get at the truth after only one life. There is a lot of fiction in the Bible, perpetuated by zealots. Yeshua, or Yeshi to his friends, was a Rabbi and also a big fan of Epicurus, among others. You can see it in many things he says, or is alleged to have said. I believe he was well-read, and interested in humanity as a whole, and studied other faiths. Anyway, have a happy season, all.
My what an Anti-Christian hatefest we are having here. Why not try respecting the opposing views of religious people instead of castigating them as you do? Show some restraint in your remarks. Personal attacks and hateful remarks demonstrate your narrowmindedness.
Wow, what a stimulating discussion.  Glad I stumbled on this site. I think anything is possible; I understand astrology and see the astrological allegory in the bible, but that does not mean that Jesus did not exist.  I often question his existence.  Then there are the gnostic gospels which I am studying and they have a completely different view than the established church. The Thomasines, the Johannites, and what about women priests at the church of Antioch? And then there are the 7 miles of manuscripts and files in the secret catacomb library at the Vatican.  Can anyone of us go there and read them?  They say Pope Leo claimed the Jesus myth has been very profitable for the church/empire.  I think an important piece we're missing is the TALMUD.  We cannot study this without studying the TALMUD.  What does it say about Jesus and Mary?  What does it say about the gentiles (the goyim)?  I think the key to understanding any scriptures or teachings that came from ancient Isreal is not complete without learning the TALMUD.
I think that all the evidence that says the bible is truth is a big lie.. all of us had been fools by the irresponsible person. Find the true religion will help you in future. Assalamualaikum...


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