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Quantum fluctuations in space, science, exploration and other cosmic fields... served up regularly by MSNBC.com science editor Alan Boyle since 2002.

Alan Boyle covers the physical sciences, anthropology, technological innovation and space science and exploration for MSNBC.com. He is a winner of the AAAS Science Journalism Award, the NASW Science-in-Society Award and other honors; a contributor to "A Field Guide for Science Writers"; and a member of the board of the Council for the Advancement of Science Writing.

Check out Boyle's biography or send a message to Cosmic Log via cosmiclog@msnbc.com.



Revisiting the gospel truth

Posted: Monday, December 18, 2006 9:15 PM by Alan Boyle

As a metaphor for the process of seeking out the truth, the idea of "separating the wheat from the chaff" goes back at least as far as the Gospel of Matthew. Over the past couple of days, readers have stirred up their share of wheat and chaff in response to my report on the apocryphal tales surrounding the biblical accounts of Jesus' life.

Most of those tales - highlighted in the National Geographic documentary "Secret Lives of Jesus" - are definitely chaff, created in the first four centuries of the Christian era. As scriptural scholar Ben Witherington told me, they're the ancient equivalent of Harlequin romances, or you might compare them to the popular "Left Behind" series of novels: that is, riffs on Christian scripture that flesh out the basics with plenty of fiction.

So are such also-ran gospels a fit subject for religious study - or scientific study, for that matter? Read on for a sampling of opinions from believers and skeptics:

Bill: "Are you purposefully trying to provoke Christians? Your statements in this piece are inflammatory and, in my opinion, flat-out wrong. For instance:

"'A lot of these ancient stories have come to be considered heretical.'

"This implies that it took a long time for these errant works to be considered aberrant, when the earliest church fathers didn’t at all consider them correct.

"'...illustrates that the gospel story has been added to, fine-tuned and pruned through the centuries.'

"Again, this is flat-out wrong. The earliest scrap of the Gospel of John dates from about 125 A.D., a papyrus fragment from Egypt with five verses on it. You are merely restating the standard Christian-bashing position that our text is unreliable. And that just isn’t so. It’s one of the most reliable texts in all of history, based on the amount of evidence and copies available. I suggest you read 'The Case for Christ' by Lee Strobel. Claiming that the Gospel story underwent any significant change since about 100 A.D., let alone 'for centuries,' without any countering viewpoint, is reprehensible.

"At this point in your story, your bias and inflammatory language stopped me from reading any further. True, Fox News is probably biased, but MSNBC shouldn’t be one to cast stones. Come on, at least once in a while why not give the opinion of a knowledgeable, articulate expert who holds the opposing view."

Ned Goldreyer: "With all due respect, what are the gospels doing as a topic in a science column?  Granted, this is the time of year when journalists either pander to the fairy-tale crowd or face losing eyeballs, but even so, couldn't you have chosen something even slightly closer to what we generally regard as scientific?  I love your clarification of the three kings as 'actually, astrologers.'  Actually, they are characters in piece of fiction and quite probably did not exist at all.  Or did they?  That would be a scientific question.  Hypothesis - The three kings did not exist.  Prove or disprove.  What exactly is your scientific training?  It is not mentioned in your profile.  I would bet good money that you have no scientific credentials at all.  Although I feel fully justified in asking you issue a public apology for this misuse of your position, at the very least, I would appreciate a response defending your reasons for writing on this subject."

I told Ned in an e-mail that I've chatted over the years with a fair number of scriptural scholars - admittedly, on hot-button topics such as the Gospel of Judas and the rehabilitation of Mary Magdalene - and that we've historically put these stories in the Science section (along with stories about the founding of Rome, and so on). The intersection of textual and archaeological studies with popular culture is part of our bread and butter here, whether we're talking about the Bible or Newton. I also said I make no claim to being a trained scientist - just a trained journalist (whatever that means).

My use of the word "actually" is just meant to say that Matthew was actually referring to astrologers rather than kings in Matthew 2:1. Yet another reader focused upon that reference to the Three Kings in his comment:

L. Mark Thomasson: "The Bible does not mention how many 'Kings' or 'Wise Men from the East' there were, simply that the gifts were gold, frankincense and myrrh. Some assume that there were three Kings because of the three gifts - not likely.  Another common misconception is that an 'eye for an eye' justifies retribution, but is actually meant to limit the punishment imposed.  Many other misconceptions abound - but God said it best: 'For a lack of knowledge (ignorance) my people perish.' We are responsible to seek God out and study his Word."

Terry Brandli: "With all this talk about the season, and historical Jesus, too bad at least one of these shows doesn't explain the facts that Jesus Christ wasn't born on December 25th. And that the most accurate date is April 19.  The early Christian church was more worried about gaining members then about being truthful. They picked a prominent pagan Roman holiday as the day to celebrate the birth of Christ, hoping that would help entice more people into their church. Another thing I think that is bad about the way the Christmas holiday is celebrated is the fairy tale about Santa Claus.  To tie the birth of mankind's savior with a big commercial lie like Santa Claus and teach it to every little kid in the country, is not a good way to teach the message of Jesus Christ and the Bible. Evidently, the commercial interests and organized religion can't handle the truth."

Greg Charles: "Every few years, people like to drag out these so-called new truths about the Bible. The fact is they aren't new and there are few facts to be found in them. There were lots of weird people back then, like there is today, who like to twist the scriptures to make them conform to what they want to believe. That is why these teachings were rejected at the Council of Trent. They are not true. A true follower of Jesus not only believes what is written, but obeys it. When we do what the Bible says, great things happen. I have seen lots of phony things, but I have also seen the true power of God. I have seen and experienced many miracles, healings, casting out of demons, etc. Some of the things I've seen are medically documented. I bring this up because in the book of Mark it says that these signs will follow those that believe. They will lay hands on the sick and they will recover, they will cast out demons, etc. Jesus meant what he said."

Matthew: "Have you ever read Irenaeus' 'Against the Heresies'? I wish you would before you make assertions of this nature:

"'Did we say four Gospels? Actually, in the early centuries of the Christian church, there were quite a few more than Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.'

"Yes, there were other, heretical gospels that circulated, but they were written by Gnostics, not eyewitnesses and associates of the apostles.  Please read this book. If you would like more information you can contact Concordia Theological Seminary in Fort Wayne, Indiana."

Reading Irenaeus is tough sledding, but scholars have used such critiques to date the ancient apocryphal works. For example, Irenaeus' scornful reference to the Gospel of Judas in "Against the Heresies," which dates to about A.D. 180, has been cited as evidence that the controversial Gnostic work is at least that old.

Even the evangelist Luke says that "many" people drew up accounts of New Testament events, based on information "handed down to us." That would imply there were plenty of secondhand stories floating around even in Luke's day.

Here's a little equal time for the Gnostics:

Kathleen Mary Hensley: "To base my spirituality and religion on a book and/or a church solely is not something I can choose to do; while a lay person scientifically and religiously, I have thought deeply about the nature of the universe and have come to conclusions about the nature of reality due to reason, science, intuition, religion and spiritual experiences. For me, the universe is a vast puzzle wherein both spiritual consciousness and physical matter/energy co-exist. We do not yet have or see all the pieces nor understand all the connections, but time will tell - and someday we will understand our nature, the nature of the universe (cosmos) and God's nature (which is bound to be far more surprising than any of us can now imagine!).  Someday, the entire puzzle will fit together and make a whole picture - this puzzle is our very lives, our meaning and we must fill in all the blank spaces between matter, energy and spirit to understand who we truly are, what our souls are and what God is. This will take centuries to happen. We are yet children in grade school who think ourselves adults.

"As a Gnostic Christian, not only in philosophy but in experience, I do not believe it is the historical Jesus that matters to me, for the physical universe does not matter, it is an illusion, a matrix of energy and matter that is both interesting and distracting - and very, very temporary. It is the spiritual reality of Jesus fascinates me ... does he still exist, can he influence me now? what is his nature ? I found he does exist, he does influence and his nature is sublime and divine.

"It is the spiritual realms that I find fascinating, and it is the experience of his presence, mystically, that proves his love and mercy for me - He is in all things, my friend and companion on the road. This experience I have had time and again.

"You, as a scientist, will say there is no such thing as mysticism or mystical experience - but are you sure ? do you know all the laws of the universe and consciousness, do you know how to weigh the spirit of a woman and measure the depths of my soul? Can you say with certainty that there is no spirit, no consciousness outside of the mind?  It is foolishness to think you do understand everything that is and can be ! We are a evolving species, evolving physically, emotionally, mentally and spiritually towards what end we do not know. No one person has all the facts, all the possibilities, all the truth.  It is not what we know in the 21st century that amazes me, it is what we do not know and what we can not yet even imagine that fascinates me. ..." 

Even Pontius Pilate asked the question, "What is truth?" The gospel truth was brought up by several of the correspondents:

Leroy: "It's always interesting to hear rationalizations and explanations from those whose futures would be better served were there no Jesus the Christ.  They simply can't afford for the true Gospel to be what it actually is - true. For, if it is true, then their fiery disposition is a certainty and not a myth.  Somehow, those odds just don't add up to common sense - do they?"

Harold Thomas: "I read your article entitled 'How the Gospel Story Grew in the Telling.' If I understand it correctly, it expresses what most of the liberal biblical scholars have said for years in reference to Christ and the origin of the Bible itself. That 'drum' has been beaten long and loud for many many years. But it reflects only one view of the issues. Why? Could it be that the alternative view places those that hold the liberal position squarely in the camp of infidels, agnostics and atheists - all of whom never believed one iota of the Bible for even one split second and all of whom never wanted to believe that there ever was a literal historical character called Christ in the first place? Many people have believed that if you repeat a lie long enough and with enough fervor it will come to be accepted as the truth by the masses of the human race. So the liberals shout the idea that the gospel story 'grew' (i.e., developed over many years) as the story was repeated from generation to generation.

"But history reveals that the gospel records that the early church accepted as 'inspired' and 'historically accurate' were all written within less than 100 years of the time the events they depict and describe actually took place. The authors of the four gospel narratives were known and recognized by the early church that received their writings. The Apostle John, speaking for himself and for the other apostles and inspired writers, says in reference to Christ and what had been written about Him this: 'That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life.'

"A significant number of the members of the church were 'eyewitnesses' along with the authors of the gospel narratives, and doubtless would have raised serious questions about any material in those narratives that might have been less than accurate accounts of the facts. In addition to this there were many nonbelievers alive who witnessed a significant amount of what the gospel narratives contained. Their writings support the accuracy of the biblical text and provide independant verification of the gospel narratives' historical reliablity.

"All in all, I would suggest that before you take it upon yourself to tell your readers 'How the Gospel Story Grew in the Telling' that you devote a little time and a little research in the area of biblical inspiration as well as works that deal with how we got the Bible and the current state of the biblical text. I would be willing to recommend a few works dealing with these issues by recognized competent conservative scholars. But even if you did consult these, I would still not feel very comfortable about a 'science editor' commenting on issues clearly outside his field of study."

At the end of all this winnowing, I was desperate for some redemption - and thankfully, a longtime Cosmic Log correspondent provided some welcome words:

Dennis McClain-Furmanski: "I've been a fan of Jesus history for most if my life. In fact I turned down a scholarship to the Methodist seminary at Valporaiso to follow a path that eventually led to becoming a scientist. It is very difficult to present the viewpoints of both belief and history without either attempting to reconcile them, or risk saying something that one side or the other finds insulting. Your article accomplishes this superbly. I can hardly recall ever seeing such a masterful presentation of even-handedness on this topic, and certainly never in the 'popular' media. More than ever, I applaud your work."

Feel free to continue the discussion in the comments section below, or by joining in the discussion in our online forum on the history behind religion.

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to the person who differentiates the `heretical' gospels written by those not apostles or eyewitnesses, from the four gospels that are in the new testament.

I believe that these accepted gospels actually were not written by the apostles, they were written down in the name of the those apostles after many decades of being passed through oral tradition.

The Old Testament refers (Book of Daniel) to astrologers as "wise men". They were the scientists of the day and, most probably, literate; so they were considered "wise".
In fact, after 20 years of research and study I can make a pretty strong argument that much of The New testament is, in fact, an astronomical/astrological allegory with Jesus representing the Sun (The Light). It is, after-all, the Sun that 'dies' (sunset) and resurrects (sunrise) on a daily basis. The "apostles" (and Mary the Virgin or Virgo, and The Magdalene) may also represent the 12 signs of the ancient zodiac. One can begin to understand why astrology is debunked by Christianity once the connection is made between The New Testament and ancient astrology. Heck, any astronomer who understands The Precession of The Equinox can determine that the son (sun) 'born' of a Virgin is 'astronomical code' for the sun precessing out of the astrological sign of Virgo (The Virgin) into Leo, the sign of the King.

The allegorical approach does NOT mean the spiritual teachings contained in The New Testament are fictional. They are (seem to be) an allegorical depiction of the teachings of ancient astrology. The teachings are designed to encourage the "birth of Christ" (divine light or illumination) within the human psyche which is, initially, a "stable" of animal passions, without true spiritual enlightenment, until the concept of Christ is introduced.

The study of Christ and The Bible are indeed (also) 'scientific' (Archaeology, Anthropology, Astronomy and ancient astrological methods). In fact, I have actually tried out the teachings and found that they are true!

If anyone is interested in the Star of Bethlehem (discovered by The Persian Magi) they can click on the "my website" link near my name on this posting.   The work (link) earned me a continuing nomination for a Templeton Prize in Religion.
Merry Christmas to All (especially you, Alan, you are fearless!).

"Organized Religion" is truly the root of most if not all evil. I truly believe that the world would be MUCH closer to peace if we quit argueing about FALSE GODS and realized that it all just fairy tales and outright brainwashing designed to control the followers. Glenn Armstrong
GET A LIFE - STOP ALLOWING YOURSELVES TO BE BRAINWASHED BY MANIPULTIVE RELIGIOUS ZEALOTS. THE TRUTH CANNOT BE "TAUGHT". IT MUST BE LEARNED.

Science is science.

Science is knowledge of skills.

Gospel is upgraded universal communication system of our creator in planet of apes.
Master our creator's communication system in the new universal language in planet of apes.

Then find the missing key and unlock the mystery in planet of apes.

The three blind mice  is out there who was lost with time in planet of apes.

With the missing key will be able to trace them in planet of apes.

The misery expose by the mystery of us - 911.

Are the gospels fit for scientific study? Yes, they are, and it has and is being done. You need look no further than Bishop N.T. Wright's monumental works, The New Testament and the People of God and his Jesus and the Victory of God.
Jesus was invented by Flavius Josephus, and the "gospels" were authored by roman aristocracy, specifically the Piso family. It has all been a cruel joke perpetrated by Rome. The gospels are full of double meanings- one meaning for the peasants and slaves, another for the arostocracy of Rome. The account of loaves and fishes? A roman joke at your expense christians! When Romans laid seige to a town they often baked loaves of bread with fecal matter in the mix and threw them over the city's walls. And "fish" is well known Roman slang for the male organ. Water into wine? Roman slang for having a p***. I know christians, which means I understand that no amount of rational thinking or historical or scientific evidence will ever be able to get through pastor's propaganda machine. But for the rest of us with half of a brain in our heads, we can continue to have a good hearty laugh- just like the romans did- at their expense.
Although the indentations of indentations of the original article's block quotations somewhat paralleled the impaired or imposed alignment of ancient texts, I found the readers' cases even more impelling. Personally, I could only conclude that the argumentation presented by various sides only expands the possibilities, and now that I'm thoroughly expanded, I must consult my magic 8-ball in order to carry on my day. Shake-shake-shake: Shall I wear boxers or briefs today? Signs point to No? How am I to interpret that?
I AM 56 AND HAVE BEEN FACISNATED FOR THE LAST 40 YEARS BY THE 1ST CENTURY HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH. I HAVE NOT BELIEVE THE BIBLE LITERALLY SINCE I WAS 13 YEARS. OLD. I AM AMUSED BY THE CLAIMS OF THE "TRUE BELIEVERS" THAT THE NEW TESTAMENT IS AN ACCURATE AND TRUE HISTORICAL ACCOUNT RATHER THAN SIMPLY A DOCUMENT OF FAITH AND SPIRITURAL TRUTHS. THE REASON THE ALTERNATIVE GOSPELS WERE REJECTED WAS NOT BECAUSE ANY OF THEM WERE UNTRUE, BUT BECAUSE, THEOLOGICALLY, THEY WERE INCONSISTANT WITH THE ORTHODOX VOICE OF THE CANNONIZED WORKS. AS A VEHICLE OF CHRISTIAN (ORTHODOX) PROPAGANDA THEY TENDED TO PROVIDE A MESSAGE THAT IMPLIED "HERETICAL" IDEAS. IT WAS ONLY JUST BEFORE THE COUNCIL OF NICEA THAT GREGORY OF NISSA SUCCESSFULLY COUNTERED GNOSTIC THEOLOGICAL POINTS ON THE NATURE OF JESUS BY THE FORMULATION THAT THE "FATHER", "SON", AND "HOLY SPIRIT" WERE ONE AND THE SAME SUBSTANCE YET DIFFERENTIATED. (IT IS IRONIC THAT GREGORY WON THE DAY FOR THE ORTHODOX AGAINST THE GNOSTIC VIEW(S)YET MODERN THEOLOGIANS SEEM TO REMEMBER HIM AS ONE OF THE GNOSTIC HERETICS, BUT THAT IS ACTUALLY ANOTHER STORY INVOLVING THE NATURE OF MAN AND HIS INTENDED RELATIONSHIP TO GOD.) IN ANY CASE, EMPEROR CONSTANTINE FORCED THE ISSUE FOR POSTERITY, AT LEAST FOR THE "TRUE BELIEVERS".

Christians are just as dangerous as Osama bin Ladin.   The evangelical set which has come to dominate the American millitary is racist and closed minded.  To them scripture is unquestionable.  Christianity is neo-paganism.  A personified God was necessary to perpetuate a dogma of white-supremacy.  The spread of Christianity was a systemic destruction and theft of the religious symbolism of foreign cultures to be replaced and "civilized" by the conquering Europeans.

Christians put lies to truth, and are great for pouring syrup on s*** and calling it pancakes.  The belief in God is so fundamental that people would rather believe nonsense than consider a more rational alternative.  White-supremacy is a fundamental aspect of Christianity--so much so that they transformed a semitic Christ into a blue eyed, blond haired European.  Their "providence" was in fact "viciousness" and their "paternity" was "ignorance."

I can see why God destroyed civilizations in the past which refused to recognize the truth, because "change" for or toward the truth doesn't happen.  People will defend their ignorance to the death.

Religion began as a description of the conditions of God, and evolved into the methodology to reach those conditions.  The Bible in its compilation omitted the books describing the former, and accepted the latter.  Religion, hence, in the now is more about morality than divinity.

The book of Enoch is among the apocryphal gospels and older than all of the new testament.  Those books regardless of age which questioned the divinity of man were excluded.

Divinity is a preconceived notion which debate, fact, reason, nor experience are capable of changing.  Let a fool be a fool.

He who knows not and who knows not that he knows not is a fool, shun him.
He who knows not and who knows that he knows not is lost, guide him.
He who knows and who knows not that he knows is afraid, comfort him.
He who knows and who knows that he knows is wise, follow him.

All religious texts are of equal validity.  That is to say, they are all useless except as tools to subjugate and divide people.

One would think an omnipotent god could have predicted the divisiveness caused by vague religious texts and done something about.

Perhaps your god likes to watch his creations suffer and die at each others' hands.

Religon should be taught in schools.  But ALL religons, at least the major three along with NO religion!  The world would be a much better place is we understood each other.  I was born and rasied as a
Catholic and was told from the git go that if ANYONE wanted to go to heaven, they had to be catholic.  That was SO wrong.  I am now an atheist and have peace of mind over superstition and and all of the 'believers' out there.  

It never ceases to amuse me how fundamentalist Christians assume that they are being attacked whenever someone dares give voice to the notion that there might be more to life than The Bible - or at least The Bible that they're reading, which is a translation of a translation of a translation of a translation of a committee's recommendations.

Regarding Lee Strobel and his "Case for Christ": I read it.  It was so patently obvious that he had an agenda before he started writing it that I couldn't help but roll my eyes at it.  I had fervently hoped that the book would live up to Strobel's billing of it - that he was a non-Christian with a legal background who wanted to disprove the Christian story, but couldn't.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  Don't bother with the book.

And to all those Christians who claim to "obey The Bible," take a look at Leviticus and Kings.  I seriously doubt that you obey most of the rules there.  If your response is that "the New Testament overrides the Old Testament," then you might want to take another look at what Jesus had to say - those old rules still apply.

Excellent article on a fascinating show, Mr. Boyle.  Thanks.

Not to get too off topic here... but Harold Thomas absolutely destroys the meaning of liberal in his reply. It's obvious he doesn't really know what this word means and only uses it in the derogatory sense that he hears it used by the media. Shame!

[...] The magi were Zoroastrian priests.  For the curious, I would like to let you know that they are still in business: http://www.avesta.org/  Studying them has been very stimulating for me, and I reccomend everyone take a look.

Something that occurred to me as I was writing this is that the early Christians would have almost certainly considered Zoroastrians pagans, just as they considered Romans, Greeks, and Egyptians.  That being the case, maybe it's worth wondering exactly why the magi scene never got expunged from the nativity story.

I just submit to you all that the Gospels are true and factual as well as supported by Old Testament predictions of events yet to be unraveled.  The so-called Gnostic gospels were written during various times throughout history.  However these can be likened to present day tabloid magazines we see every day at the supermarket.  Just because it is written doesn't make it true.  1000 years from now, as our descendants discover our historical documents and they read of how some Hollywood star has done some shameful thing(s), will they believe it or should they try to corroborate that information with other more reputable documents of the time?

These "gospels" are likely opponents early attempts to discredit the early Christian Church. I also agree with the poster that indicated the probable date of Christ's birth is not Dec 25.  The early Christian Church did integrate pagan practices and rituals to entice pagan beleivers into Christianity. History shows the Roman Catholic Church has added many things over the last two millenia that have weakened or "watered down" Christianity's strength and influence in the world.  

The simple truth of the matter is without the Birth of Jesus Christ, and His subsequent Death on the cross, there would not be a Christmas Season to celebrate every winter.  We would likely be still celebrating some form of Winter Solstice event as our early pagan ancestors did.

Merry Christmas and yes, Virginia, Jesus is the Reason for the Season.

Sadness, Sadness, soon you will have to choose, faith or science. choose Faith.
If only I could be more eloquent with my words.
Sorrow, and sadness
Lost

So it is acknowledged that the gospels were written within 100 years of the actual experience.  This means the attributed "authors" (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) were dead when they were written!

There are places where the gospels seem to diverge or conflict with each other.  This is constantly massaged to try to get people to believe they all say the same thing. But when books on the same topic are written over a span of time just from hearsay, they will be different.  Look how many different theories there are and the resulting controversies over Abraham Lincoln's assassination.  This was written down and reported in real time and yet people do not agree on the details.  For some reason this is acceptable.  But woe is me if I do not accept every inconsistancy in the Bible as fact.  I just "need more faith" and then I "will believe".  (Yes, I have been told exactly that when I have raised questions.  Since the pastor/scholar/teacher cannot answer the questions, the problem then is me, not the writings.)

I am not saying that Jesus did not exist or that the basis for the stories is false.  Just that the details should only be taken as window dressing that the scribes of the day each put on their own writing.

The bigger question is, did a historical Jesus actually rise from the dead? If so, he is the only person recorded in history to have done that. So with that said, if Jesus is not who he said he is then nothing matters, if he is who he said he is,then nothing else matters.

Terry Brandli: Quote (With all this talk about the season, and historical Jesus, too bad at least one of these shows doesn't explain the facts that Jesus Christ wasn't born on December 25th. And that the most accurate date is April 19.)

Terry,

The true date of Jesus birth was Oct. 15th, which is "Tishri 15, or the Feast of Tabernacles". This is because Jesus was 6 months younger than his cousin "John the Baptist", and there is very good evidence John was born at "Passover, or March-April". There are many articles of this subject, here is a good one:

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/sukkoth.htm

I am a Born-Again Christian, and God speaks to me. he told me to look into the "Significance of Oct. 15, concerning him." That's when I found this out about Tishri 15th, or the Feast of Tabernacles.

May you Lord Jesus Christ be Greatly Praised!!!

Golly, in my years since parish ministry I forgot how much of a hornets' nest you could stir up with an article.  I just have a few observations.

First, there are liberal Christians who see nothing offensive about looking into some of these apocryphal gospels (not in the printed body of Scritures), though even most liberals would agree with the scholar I once read quoted who didn't see a lot of reason for those other than scholars to read them.

Second, it is mainly conservative Christians who assume that everything in the 4 Gospels is historical.  Many mainline and liberal Christians make no such assumption.

Then, there was one who wrote you who wished that it was mentioned more often that the birth of Jesus was not in December, but probably in the spring.  This writer did mention that the celebration was put in December to usurp the pagan holiday.  What the reader did not add was, this time of year was already a significant holiday period.  So many complain about Christmas being usurped by commercialism and other non-Christian celebrations.  But the truth is that this time of year was not originally a Christian celebration.  Let Christians celebrate Christmas and realize that the end of the year, the winter solstice, and other factors tend to bring a lot of different holidays to this time of the year.

I thought the article was a good piece and enjoyed reading the various approaches of thought.  It should be added that you did quote from conservative scholars, such as the one from Asbury.

Good work.

Heresy - A fundamental error in religion; error in doctrine; heterodoxy.
Heterodoxy - The holding of heterodox opinions.
Heterodox - Holding opinions different from those established or prevalent.
Hetero - a combining form meaning    different, other, dissimilar.

One person's heresy is another's opinion is another's doctrine is another's truth.

A pivotal aspect of all of the canons and apocrypha of the three faiths of Abraham that is too often ignored or downplayed is their heavily symbolic structure and content. Recent books like the DaVinci Code have explored and alluded to the symbology that permeates these texts, but have failed to truly reveal its meaning and purposes. Without an in-depth understanding of it and a recognition of its importance, anyone trying to interpret these texts and traditions is stumbling in the dark. My book and research has succeeded where all others have failed by finally reverse-engineering and "unsealing" ancient wisdom symbology and the many ancient texts based on it.

As Mr. Web points out, some of the symbology is astrological and astronomical and the leaders of Christianity have purposely hidden this fact in an effort to recast ancient Hebrew symbolism and allegory as literal events and miracles. Though my research and book (follow my name link) explore many other aspects, my research agrees with Mr. Webb's assessments on some points. I present starkly different conclusions about the veracity of the historical assertions of the New Testament and Christianity though and the stated purposes and effects of religion in general.

The topic of symbolism is pivotal to every endeavor related to uncovering the truth about the foundations of ancient Near Eastern and North African religious texts. These texts, which are most often associated with the traditions of all three Faiths of Abraham, are heavily steeped in similar symbolism that is clearly apparent in the very earliest mystical and religious traditions. Similar symbolism is found in archeological, astronomical and astrological settings, as well as in the mystical and wisdom traditions of the earliest civilizations.

It is undeniable that early humanity thought and communicated with a more symbolic mindset than we do today. This is redundantly and consistently proven by the nature of all early alphabets, hieroglyphs, and the consistently symbolic manner that early architecture, art and knowledge were structured. Likewise, the narratives of most ancient wisdom traditions use strikingly similar symbolism within consistent contexts and themes. Furthermore, the use of numeric symbolism was pivotal to every ancient wisdom tradition. It is likewise a central aspect of Hebrew prophecies and wisdom texts and is widely evidenced in ancient archeological sites worldwide. This symbolic mindset is still readily apparent in all non-European societies and was prevalent in most pre-Christian European traditions.

All ancient religious, mystical and wisdom texts have been shrouded in mystery for millennia. They remain enigmatic for one reason: The ability to understand ancient symbology was lost in antiquity. Consequently, the earliest known texts and traditions treat it as mystery and religion because the ancient cultures at the dawn of our current cycle of civilization were unable to decode them. All of the available evidence demonstrates that the ancient wisdom, mysticism, and religion of Africa and Asia arose using closely related symbolism about similar topics and concepts. This and other evidence clearly alludes to a common source originating in an epoch prior to what we label as recorded history.

Read more at my website and blogs...

I have no belief in the Christian word. Regarding Christmas, we all know it did not take place on 12/25. Do smart people who are Christians just throw their logic out the door when they leave work? I am a Taoist and am a good person. I hold no bad thoughts toward others. We are all free to choose.
I find it amazing as a Child of God, Born Again in Feb. 1991, that many, many people in all areas of life attack the credibility of the Word of God and have NEVER read the Word!!! When people make their comments and/or findings and have read the Bible from Genesis thru Revelation, then I respect their words. Until that happens, keep your opinions to yourself. Have a great day!
Don't forget that neither Mark nor Luke were eyewitnesses either. In fact, Mark's is recognized as the earliest "orthodox" gospel and is dated around A.D. 52, approximately 25 years after the events it describes. Meanwhile, Matthew the eyewitness for some reason borrows heavily from Mark instead of relying on his own recollection. And John? His gospel is dated somewhere between A.D. 90-100, around the same time he is credited with Revelation. Given the inconclusive nature of the latter work and his advanced age, it must raise some questions about his memory of what happened 70 years before.
Umm.. wouldn't Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John need to be in the manger scene if they were "eyewitnesses" as Harold claims?

Well, I do not claim to have read the Bible, any of its versions, nor do I claim to be a know-it-all. In fact, I am actually a Muslim and not a Christian, although I solemnly believe in Jesus, Moses, David and all the messengers from God. The only difference is my belief in the "messages" we have today.

I know the topic under discussion is the Bible and the many versions of the writings of the Apostles and whether or not they are original or have been modified over time. I recall one of the comments in this article that says we must obey all that is in the Bible and not question it, and another comment that says the First Church had approved of the writings of the Apostles. I do not doubt they have, but those that were in the First Church do not exist anymore to verify if any "version" of the Bible after their existence continues to be acceptable.

It is in the nature of human beings to elaborate on words, to allow greed and desires to get in the way of the truth, so why do we all so adamantly deny that this could have been the case with the Bible? I know that many might be arguing that it is the same case with the Holy Koran and with the Torat, and it might be. The only argument I can give against any change to the Holy Koran is the fact that Islam calls upon all followers to fully memorize every word of the book. This, in my opinion, might have helped preserve the writings as any change or modification could have been easily detected by strict followers. I personally do not know of any that have fully memorized the words of the Bible since the time of the Apostles, nor do I know of a need for Christians to do so. Same goes for the Torat, although I do admit I might be mistaken.

I don't mean to mix religions in here not to offend any of them. I actually think that, as a believer in God and in his holy messengers (some might not know this but Muslims believe Jesus was only a messenger of God), that we must not look to the words or the literal meanings of teachings that come in any message, but we must understand the underlying lessons, the truths to what was really meant. It does not really matter what year a book was written nor who wrote it, what matters is the meaning of what is written and if it instinctively matches what your soul and spirit feel. All messages from God ask for love, forgiveness and faith. So why do we bother so much about the truths and forget about these "truths"?

OK, you've stirred the pot of superstition soup again for the year!  Watch it, you may end up with a whole bunch of fatwas on your head!

To quote a bumper sticker "If you're born again, does it mean you have two navels?"  Sorry, Mr. Demers, opinions, being like unto navels, everyone is entitled to at least one, and are equally free to express them in the US of A, whether or not you agree.
Remember the oath administreed to anyone entering the military and  federal office.  It's called defending the Constitution, not a point of view or a politician, only the Constitution.

"Although I disagree with what you say, I shall defend to the death your right to to say it!"  

Now that we have settled that (he says, buttering up the Man), how about some of your patented inside coverage of the Spitzer data analysis (see the Rob Roy Britt article on the S&T front page).  Now, that is cosmic.

I have studied (as an academic amateur) conservative biblical interpretation, Gnostic allegory, archeological time-lining and story-telling mythology to augment my search for understanding of the Teaching of the Master Saints.  In reference to the above intelligent and emotional responses regarding truth, fiction, reality and spirit that often comes to fore when a discussion of a Master Teacher such as Christ (Zarathustra, Baha'u'llah, Plato, Rumi, Guru Nanak, Soami Ji Maharaj, Sawan Singh Ji and many other unnamed Sat Gurus or True Masters) is brought to a democratic forum of free speech, I am amazed that such seemingly opposed points of view all have an accrual effect.  All are true, and compose Truth as only an integrated individual can grasp.

The historicity of Jesus is of varying importance: more so to the literalist, less so to the esoterisits.  Accuracy in the text is subject to erosion and entropy, and interpretation of it is bound by the referential education of the interpreter.  Any relatively integrated individual, though, develops an increasingly intuitive ‘corrective filter’, a tuning fork of a sort, that assists in winnowing out the Truth from the true stories available to all (for all the stories, in this perspective, are true ones).   It is an abstract chasm that must be leapt over before the Teaching, and the Saint Teacher, can be perceived by the individual.  I will say that this is my referential understanding of the Second Coming.

Some (many) do it through emotive faith; some believe they have done it, and only their doubt will tell true who is who.  Some (fewer) make it on intellect: beliefs that bear fruit in individual knowing and accumulate into an intuitive logic.  Their experience is beyond description, though fortunately some still try to tell the story of it.  Once every human can cross the chasm, this debate will cease.  That point, in some distant history, will be the end of mankind and the last Second Coming of Earth.

There is a logic that one Saint’s teaching is not enough to carry a message through the erosion of time and linguistic migration.  The Teaching must surface again and again, flowing out from the qualified lives of human beings that have been born both appointed and more-or-less integrated, relative to the population they are born among.  They live as we live, have Minds (personalities) much as we do, but have also been given an appointed task, as we have.  Theirs will involve a surrender that can only be perceived by those who experience their lives, living with them in their immediate environment.  When the Teacher dies (for they are also mortal), the same, One Teaching that has been given though each Master’s lifetime is subjected to the corrosive elements that are endemic to physical reality: matter, energy, time and space.  The Spirit of the teaching is unaffected; the letter, word and text must necessarily be, though, for they are bourn by and of this reality.

Integration of science and religion (or the reflected principles of Scientific and Religious) is as much a noble goal as it is anathema.  This conundrum appears whenever the Mind is forced to face off with its benefactor, Soul.  These two realities cannot be integrated in physical parameters, yet in the time/space realm of the human being, they are somehow inseparable.  Because of that dynamic, in my understanding of course, the above discussion will always appear as a never-ending debate.
Therefore, should we refuse to study the opposite component of our own Truth, and deny our own integration?  Only the resistant Mind fears such a goal, one that has yet to acknowledge its dependence on the thing it cannot grasp: the inexplicable.

 Integration in this sense refers to a Mind (personality, if you will) that accepts, after an exhausting struggle against, and eventual surrender to, this notion: it doesn’t have to know Everything to have access to Anything it needs or unselfishly desires.  It only has to Know its Self.  This is at the core of any Master’s Teaching.  One of the more powerful keys to unlocking that Self knowledge was highlighted in Jesus’ version of the Teaching: Forgiveness of ‘sin’—of others, and our own.

Doesn't anybody else find it odd that at least 1200 years before the birth of Christ takes place there was a religious cult worshipping Mithra, who was born on December 25th of a virgin, surrounded by Magi? Further, Mithra had 12 desciples, had the power to send his worshippers to heaven or hell, and to be a follower you had to drink of the blood and eat of the flesh of the "bull" of Mithra.  Mithra was considered the light of the world. He later died for his follower's sins and was considered the son of a God.  He had a "last supper" before he died and rose from the dead.  Mithra's main focus of worship was in Rome. Sounds familiar?

Constantine at Nicaea in 321 AD, who was responsible for gathering together a group of Bishops who were to decide on a faith that everyone could follow, happened to be a Mithra worshipper. Any of the Bishops who didn't agree were either sent away or killed.  But the all important thing at that time was to get together a faith that Constantine could use to control the people.

The true worshippers of Christ, who believed totally different ideas, were later put to death for heresy in not believing the conglomeration put together by Constantine. Some who managed to survive were slaughtered by Pope Innocent the III hundreds of years later (amongst the many he slaughtered for not believing what he wanted. Such an icon that he was of his faith)!

Do you want to equate science with religion? How about these facts. There is not one documented contemporaneous attestation for the "historical" life of Jesus outside of the "gospels." If a person was healing people and had crowds following him and was raising a fuss, why didn't his contemporary Pliny, a meticulous Jerusalem historian mention anything about him? The gospels in their current form did not exist until around 400 AD. The early church fathers understood that all of this including the Christ myth was just that...Mythology. That is, stories with an archetypal, moral meaning. How many saviors were there throughout history? How many virgin mothers? I could take any of you to an art museum right now and show you Isis and Horus and Mary and Jesus and many other pairs, and you would not be able to tell the difference. The feminine Divine is symbolized by the Mother figure...who gives miraculous birth to the Hero. The problem is the level of conscious development of the vast majority in our culture, who are not very well developed. At the literal mythic level of consciousness, people need a literal interpretation. People at this level have not accepted themselves and disown and project their own evil "out there." It is a well known fact in depth psychology that Satan is a mass projection of the collective's disowned Shadow. Another characteristic of this low level of spiritual development is duality and all or nothing thinking. Read the news. Watch the current political regime in the USA and duality becomes apparent. However, Reality is not split and divided. Reality is an undivided Unity. Most so called Christians are full of guilt and self loathing and unable to take true responsibility for themselves. Hence the need for a physical literal savior god...out there.

My, what an awesome discussion! I would like to add a couple of points.  I believe that it is generally accepted that none of the authors of known Christian manuscripts were first hand witnesses, but writing from oral traditions, which in this day and age would be called hearsay or a second-hand source and therefore, inadmissible to the body for consideration as fact--inspired or not.

I adore ancient history and admire the dedication of those determined to find that one piece of physical evidence that eludes and prevents them from proving their case--that their religion is the true religion based in historical evidence, not hearsay.

However, let us lay aside our narrow views of religious dogma and consider the message of the "Christ Spirit."  The basis of most world religions are the same gentle principles taught by the The Buddha, the Jewish Prophet/Rabbi Jesus, and Mohammed. Only when the zealots of the sects began writing their hearsay, or heresy, did we lose the true teachings, began developing our isolating dogmas using them to justify our political agendas--crusades, jihads, inquisitions, etc.  

Today, our scientific theories and philosophies have gone full circle and are supporting the mystical unknown.  We have torn the universe apart atom by atom, electron by electron, and string by string and have found--nothing.  We are back to looking for the God who directs the universe.  Whether you believe in transubstantiation, the resurrection of the body, the reincarnation of the soul, or all the virgins you could want, you believe in the miracle and continuance of life outside of the physical world.

Let's approach this Holy-Day Season from those beliefs we hold in common and not our theo-political differences.

What CW is refering to is the ancient pagan religion of Mithraism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Mithraism#Similarities_to_Christianity

Oh now come on! Geez, you people from Earth are so only you. How about us from another place? Too bad I couldn't bring along our version of what you call the Bible but when I showed up here I was naked and without any prior knowledge what so ever. Of course since then I have been shown histories of people, places and things that I'm left to interpret for myself, I also get to create my own and watch others create theirs. Hey for those I never meet this go round I hope to see ya elsewhere ….. next time.

Boy, talk about the freaks coming out at night! Or actually when someone mentions ########## and the other gospels.

Tom Day: read the Matthew 5 passage carefully. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law and the Prophets; I have not come to abolish, but to fulfill." Jesus also said "To obey is better than sacrifice." He also said in John 4 "An hour is coming when the worshippers will worship neither at this mountain nor Jerusalam" to say that temple worship would not be around much longer. How's that for the Old Testament worship restrictions still applying. And Paul, personally appointed by Jesus as the apostle to the Gentiles, plenty of times (try Acts 15 and Galatians for one) said that the Old Testament judicial and ceremonial laws didn't need to be followed by non-Jewish Christian converts. Guess you just kind of forgot that part of the New Testament, didn't you. Having never read Strobel, your bad review of it, combined with your ignorance of what the New Testament and Jesus say, makes me think it might be worth reading. Nevertheless, your rant was at least a bit more coherent than much of what was written here, at least.

As far as the magi are concerned, Zoastrian or not, it seems fair to reason from the book of Daniel that Daniel was the leader of the Magi, and since Daniel got the prophecy about the "sevens" in Daniel 9:24-27, he may have tipped off the Magi to be on the lookout for the Messiah. The years involved would give them an idea, although they would have to be understood as "approximate" and perhaps some conditionality involved (OT prophecies involved a lot of implied conditionality). But that the Magi were at Jesus's house (not stable) nearly 2 years after his birth in large part because of Daniel centuries before seems like a very good hypothesis.

Alan, don't see what the big deal about your article is on either side. Christian scholars need to study that info to know about the time period, and scientific atheists need to be less close minded about studying religion. After all, religion is in history, and a key to knowing how people tick. The article seemed to be evenhanded to me.

Watched all the shows during the last two nights on NGEO. I was facinated by the responses from all who narrated. I have read the bible several times but always had a great deal of difficulty with many of the passages. I also felt there were and are too many discrepancies in the bible. I am not a religionist but I am very close to God and I think I understand Jesus in my heart. God gave us choice and that is dependent upon our knowledge and history. Jesus was sent to explain our choices to those who would hear. Sadly too many humans follow what they believe is "truth" set out by other humans. This is the greatest joke of religion. I respect their right to choice but do not agree that it is necessary to believe what they say based on words written by another person, just because that person lived 1800 years ago(gospels written long after Jesus died). Those of you that believe say they were there...first of all the gospels were not written by the people that were there..they were written 60 years later. I believe that is based on scientific fact....everything that was written was "judged" by the church 180 years later..is that not also scientific fact? So..if I wanted to create a religion based on an inspiring event in the world, and needed to control my followers and expand the religion to great depths, again, to control my followers, I suppose I too would pick the least controversial of the "gospels" (again written by men) to create the "bible". And of course at the time, women were not allowed any role in society, therefore, Mary Magdelene had to become a "whore" to be believed. Nothing will change as a result of these revealing gospels, however, for those of us that already "know" in our hearts that religious definitions of God were incredibly ridiculous, we can now relax with a better understanding of "human" history.
God, if he does exist, surely would have nothing to do with parasitcal humans. It WHO CREATED THIS MAGNIFICENT UNIVERSE.. come on stop believing we exist because God has chosen us.We created God and Jesus to do away with our so called sins and have this human need to find the tree of life and everlastng life. All myth,to justify our wrongdoing in life and say we are forgiven because their is Jesus.Also the only reson religion and christianity has exusted so long is not a mystery but , man created this guilt attached to not beleiving thus we do not want to go to hell so we beleive as sheep follow. not wanting to be sent to the infernal underworld.

I consider myself a realist who applies rules of logic in my daily routine activities.  I try to personally reconcile how the 'cult'of Christianity could survive after its leader is declared a criminal of Rome and then swiftly, shamefully, publicly executed.  

The followers of Jesus not only kept the 'cult' together after his execution, but they willingly went into harms way to preach their 'dead' leader's message?  Ten of the original 12 apostles died as martyrs.  Judas allegedly died by his own hand for his infamous betrayal.  Only John died a natural death on Patmos.  Saul (Paul) of Tarsus, an original Christian bounty hunter, not only converted to the new 'cult' but died a martyr to the faith as well.  What drove these men to risk everything over a failed and executed rebel-leader?  Why did they not fear death?  

As these zealots spread Jesus' message across the known world, interest grew in their master and 'cult' founder.  If there is a likely time frame for the creative history of Jesus being back-written, it is here the founder might be mythologized in the very Roman way of the day.  But the myth is undeniably founded upon some important realities, realities that led 10 close disciples and Paul  to lay down their lives for the message that their master gave them.

The message of Jesus is no doubt real, as he was.  Josephus the Hebrew-Roman historian verifies his existence in his chronicles.

Unless future codices are uncovered that shed light on Jesus' formative years, we are left with what the Gospels, written decades after Jesus' death, portray.   Still, it is the very survival of the message contained within those Gospels that is the true miracle.  

Christianity defied all the odds.  It literally survived and then conquered mighty Rome, the most feared Empire in Jesus' day.   That in itself provides much food for thought.  

Dear John from North Orlando, Just one point, you mention that Paul was personally appointed by Jesus. Paul never actually met Jesus - he had spiritual meetings with Jesus - "spiritual" not physical meetings. So, we only have Paul's word for anything that is supposed to have taken place between Paul and Jesus. Perhaps Paul had an awakening in the Gnostic sense.
P.S. Jesus told us that the laws will never be gone until the end of the earth no matter what Paul says and yet as Christians we do not follow the 10 commandments. Nevertheless, a good part of the Gospels was written as previously stated in other posts, from word of mouth. Mark and Luke for example, never met the Christian historical Jesus.

Alan,

As a long time reader of yours, I thought the article meet the high standard of writing and evenhandness that I have come to expect from you. I am quite certain that you and I do not agree on the origin of the universe, God, Jesus Christ, and the blood atonement. But the article wasn't titled, "What John from Cincy believes." You presented what people are doing in regards to the topic at hand.

What I like about articles like this is that I get to know what others are thinking. It allows me to review what I believe, change what I believe if warranted, and see what that person believes that thinks differently than I.

It amazes me as I am reading this discussion and identifying the distorted thought memes disguised as facts and erroneous beliefs. As far as Lee Stroebel goes...his book is not even credible and was torn apart long ago. Many of you have been brainwashed and infected by a meme that assumes a physical literal being named Jesus existed in time. Yet there is no evidence and the so called evidence that the Christians are pointing to here would not stand up in a court of Law. Yet a Christian will hold to a faulty belief that God would throw you in hell for not "believing the gospel." What kind of God is that? That is no God....that is your childish projection of evil onto God. Such a God would not be a God...but an evil sadist. You are simply ignorant of the historical facts. The Christ is a symbol of your own Higher Self. Buddha, Krishna, ET, Superman, and Luke Skywalker are also hero symbols that symbolize the Self. If you continue looking outside for the Christ, you remain in darkness. The Bible itself says that the Kingdom is within. The Bible also says in this same parable that people look here and there and everywhere and do not find it. You are looking in the wrong place...look within...and then loose your fear and ignorance.
Bill: Your assertion that the Bible has not been changed in any way is incorrect. If you use the King James (or Authorized) Version of the Bible (one of the more popularly used in the USA and the UK), or any translated version thereof, you are using an edited version. It is commonly known that the committees performing the translation for King James edited some passages, removed others (that did not fit the "canonized beliefs of the time"), and added some that did not exist. They compared their works to the current English-translated Bible of the time, despite knowing that its translations were incorrect and politically influenced. Further, the current (1769) version of the King James Bible (originally made in 1609) deviates even further from the original texts by translating the translation. Thus, to believe in the most prevalent copy of the Bible is to believe in a politically-motivated book that holds to the structure of the times rather than the “truth” of the original books.
The gospel is a book, written by humans. However spiritually inspired, it is beholden to the limitations of human language and understanding. Do not pass your church's understanding of it as truth and all others' as heresy - believing you are above fault is blasphemy, and worshipping a book is idolatry. God speaks to us through our hearts and minds. Ignore the gifts of conscience and free will in exchange for your human-compromised view of the Word at your own risk.

It should be obvious that the religions of all peoples were invented by early humans as a way to explain what they could not understand.

And since then the strongest of our species have used religion to control the masses for their own benefit.

And if you are really open minded you'll look back at history and see that more human beings have been butchered in the name of one "god' or another than for any other reason. Just look at the middle east and you will see the same thing still going on.

I just wish we could all look to the stars and see hope and knowledge instead of signs from god!

This has been an interesting read.  Quite a wide variety of opinions have been expressed.  Fun to read.

OK, I'll throw in my 2 cents.  Some people on here have mentioned the effects that the Romans (especially Constantine) had on Chistianity.  It certainly was a profound effect.  Christmas being celebrated on 12/25 is certainly one effect of the "paganization" of Christianity (although I don't know if Constantine had anything to do with that specifically).  Constantine did bring in many aspects of Rome's pagan religion when he converted to Christianity.  Many of these things are still evident today.  The biggest, I believe is the move away from monotheism.  The Bible teaches us of one (and only one) God.  However, after Constantine, the "Christian" church now has not only this 3 headed trinitarian god, but Mary has been deified along with countless other "saints".  All of this is from the Roman influence.

That is why it is important to study scripture for yourself, and to strive to learn the faith of the first-century Christians.

The truth will come in time. One day eons from now, when man has devastated the earth and her resources, we will have no choice but to look up to the skies, and be it livable space stations or colonies on the moon or elsewhere, will we still be waiting for the second coming? Spirituality is in each of us, look inside for your comfort, as this is what prayer is anyway, it gives comfort and relief.Find this, in yourself and you will no longer be held hostage by moneygrubbing priests and preachers who live off your guilt. Time has a way of telling the truth.

[...] We will always need forgiveness (we think) because we are always "sinners"!  But that isn't the real problem with religion..nor the real reason.  Let's face it, there is only ONE REASON for religion and that's MONEY folks!

Jeff T:  I would like to bring to your attention that in the world TODAY human beings are sacrificing themselves (martyrs?) because of their beliefs in their religions.  Are these people to be put on pedestals because they "believe" and follow the Koran? And wasn't the Koran written by a "man"? Whether considered "holy" or "unholy" was this not another example of continuing the true relgious fanaticism, as it was in biblical times.  What is the difference????  Because Christianity is your religion and Islam is theirs?  Come on people, there is no difference...just time and belief systems.  It is all the same.  My God is the best God!  (And He chuckles quietly in the back of the theatre while the show goes on!!!)

Come on folks! You can't quote Scripture to substantiate the Bible! The new testament was CREATED by the Council of Nicene to unify the beliefs of 4th century Romans into a government sponsered religion. Spouting 20th century fundamentalist dogma has absolutely nothing to do with it. A religion sect which condemns non-members for their beliefs, while extolling the validity of their own, condemns itself. The truth is not exclusive.


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