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Gospels of science

Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 10:20 AM by Alan Boyle

There’s a new flood of books about the relationship between science and religion – and just as the various Christian gospels were aimed at different audiences, so too are these. On one hand, E.O. Wilson’s “The Creation” reaches out to believers, while on the other hand, Richard Dawkins’ “The God Delusion” rallies the unbelievers to mount a full-scale attack on religion.


Cornell Univ.
The late astronomer Carl
Sagan was the author or
co-author of more than a
dozen books.

Perhaps the hardest-to-categorize gospel comes from someone who shuffled off this mortal coil 10 years ago: astronomer Carl Sagan, whose lectures on science and religion are being released this week in a book titled “The Varieties of Scientific Experience.” The talks were originally delivered in Glasgow in 1985 as part of the Gifford Lectures on Natural Theology (the same lecture series that spawned William James' "The Varieties of Religious Experience" back in 1902).

Although Sagan's observations are more than 20 years old, they deftly deal with today’s controversies over intelligent design, cosmic origins and God’s role in the universe. In fact, the words often sound as if they were written today:

"If a Creator God exists, would He or She or It or whatever the appropriate pronoun is, prefer a kind of sodden blockhead who worships while understanding nothing? Or would He prefer His votaries to admire the real universe in all its intricacy? I would suggest that science is, at least in part, informed worship. My deeply held belief is that if a god of anything like the traditional sort exists, then our curiosity and intelligence are provided by such a god. We would be unappreciative of those gifts if we suppressed our passion to explore the universe and ourselves. On the other hand, if such a traditional god does not exist, then our curiosity and our intelligence are the essential tools for managing our survival in an extremely dangerous time. In either case the enterprise of knowledge is consistent surely with science; it should be with religion, and it is essential for the welfare of the human species."

Ann Druyan, Sagan’s widow and longtime collaborator, is the editor of the posthumously published scripture – with a strong scientific assist from astrophysicist Steven Soter. Druyan told me that not one word of Sagan's lectures was changed. Rather, she said the updates are confined to the illustrations and the footnotes - including one footnote relating to the Cassini spacecraft's latest findings about Titan.


Ron Luxemburg
Ann Druyan is Carl
Sagan's widow and the
editor of his lectures.

Sagan had speculated that oceans of hydrocarbons would be found on the mysterious Saturnian moon, and for a while there it looked as if that expectation wasn't going to pan out. Just before the book went to press, however, Cassini data did indeed confirm that there was a multitude of hydrocarbon lakes on Titan's surface.

"Obviously, if he was wrong, he would have wanted us to say that rather than pretend otherwise," Druyan said. "But it turns out he was right about that, too."

Ever since Sagan died in Seattle in 1996, after a years-long battle with a pre-leukemia condition, Druyan has been the keeper of the "Cosmos" flame. Although she's been honored as one of the "world's outstanding atheists," I've always found her beliefs (and Sagan's) much harder to characterize. Maybe I'm just not orthodox enough. You can judge for yourself, on the basis of excerpts from our conversation last week.

We started out with the proposition that science and religion were separate realms - a philosophical non-aggression treaty that was proposed by evolutionary biologist Stephen Jay Gould (and in fact dedicated to Sagan's memory):

Q: Stephen Jay Gould talked about the idea of the non-overlapping magisteria: the idea that there were things the spiritual impulse addressed that weren’t amenable to dispassionate scientific analysis, and that there were things related to scientific inquiry that religious traditions weren’t equipped to pass judgment on. Is that something that was reflected in what Carl had to say?

A: Carl loved Steve, as did I. I remember a tremendously poignant day in the last month of Carl’s life where he and I paid a visit to Steve in New York, and I left the two guys together for the afternoon. When I came by to pick Carl up, he was aglow. As we were walking out the door, I said, “What did you guys talk about?” And he said, “Love.” And he smiled at me. So my regard for Steve as a scientist and a citizen and an educator is enormous.

I completely disagree with the notion of two magisteria, and I think Carl would have, also. Because it makes you ask: Is it OK to study Aztec religious beliefs, or Babylonian religious beliefs scientifically? Are there only two separate magisteria when the religion in question happens to have a lot of living devotees? Why would that magically change in the event that all of the people who subscribe to the religion no longer exist? That’s the problem with this “two-magisteria” idea.

If you look back in the history of science, until Copernicus, there was no need for two magisteria. Maybe Giordano Bruno is the exception that proves the rule. But virtually every scientist had a deeply religious faith in the conventional sense. And if you look at the greatest figures in the history of science, all of them had religion either as an avocation or an occupation, as Copernicus did. Even much later, the young Darwin was going to be an Anglican parson. If you look at Isaac Newton, he was passionately religious, as was Kepler. They wanted to use science to read the mind of God. They used science because it was the most powerful means at their disposal to continue this sacred searching.

You only needed to build a wall around religion after the modern scientific revolution, when there is this obvious conflict with the traditional view of creation and a Bible that talks about “the” world – seemingly oblivious to the Milky Way galaxy of some 400 billion suns, each with a retinue of planets and moons. To talk of “the” world sounds as if you’re earthbound, and very much confined to the knowledge of the universe from several thousand years ago.

It’s only when the religious version of natural reality becomes untenable that the religious people say, “Don’t look at religion from a scientific perspective.” And yet, it’s almost as if we would prefer an agreed-upon fiction to the deepest possible understanding of which we’re capable. If you really have that sense of awe, and humility, and wonder and amazement at the greatness of nature and the cosmos, you want to know it as intimately as you possibly can. It’s not as if there’s a voice within you saying, “Avert your eyes. Our original conception may be disproved.”

I think that’s the tragedy that Carl and I observed 15 or 20 years ago. When science began to deliver these revelations about the true grandeur of the cosmos, that it was so much greater than anyone imagined, the religious authorities didn’t say, “This is great! Not just one world? Are you saying there are billions and billions of worlds? Why, that’s fantastic!” No. They said, “We want to keep this local. We want to maintain this local conception, because we want to keep things small.”

I think there’s only one magisterium – and that is the greatness of nature. And if we don’t begin to take these revelations of science to heart, the way we take the various religious ideologies to heart, we’re in very deep trouble.

Q: What sort of trouble?

A: One example, of course, is that science has made it possible for us to send out robotic emissaries, to stand out by the orbit of Neptune and look back to Earth, and see Earth as this tiny “pale blue dot,” as Carl said, instead of as the center of the universe. Now, when you look at that one-pixel Earth, the first thing you think of is the oneness of everybody on it, and the tragedy of the rivers of blood that we shed because of these imaginary divisions between us and our brothers and sisters. It’s a delusion.

We have to take that pale blue dot to heart and realize that the number of fish in the ocean, and the air and the sweet water and all of the beautiful things about this earth are in jeopardy – and it’s up to us. No one will save us from this but ourselves. It’s up to us to awaken from our stupor and take action. That’s a revelation of science, and it’s something we have to take to heart. Not just to know it intellectually – “Oh, the earth is really tiny” – but to know it viscerally, and keep it, as the Bible says, “as frontlets between thine eyes.”

Q: Frontlets?

A: Frontlets, whatever those are. “You should know it as you wakest up, as you walkest by the way.” There are so many beautiful things from our religious traditions that we need to remember, but unfortunately, we’re living in a moment in time when wholesale violence and brutality is being perpetrated in the name of some of the things in the Bible that really haven’t withstood the test of time.

Q: It’s interesting that Carl was quite familiar with the religious traditions, and really felt – as I think you do – that some of those ways of thinking about the world are living on but have to be reinterpreted in a new light. As you say, perhaps our world is sometimes too small.

A: Our view of God is too small. We see God as this punitive force. The creator of all the galaxies and all the parts of the universe that we haven’t even been able to comprehend yet … the idea that this God is concerned with what we eat on certain days, and who we sleep with – we have to give that up. The evidence for that is nonexistent.

Q: I’m just trying to digest all this, and it does go to the variety of conceptions of God - the "old man" that Einstein had in mind, perhaps the sum total of all the laws of nature; or an impersonal architect of the universe, the deistic view; or a God who is immanent...

A: An intervening god ...

Q: Right, the theistic view. Where would Carl's views fit on that spectrum? To some extent, he was agnostic; to some extent atheistic; to some extent deistic ...

A: Well, yeah, he was a complicated person, capable of the deepest kind of spiritual understanding and feeling. But there was a devoutness to him. He felt this idea of God was so important, this idea of God was so endlessly fascinating ... it was the favorite thing for us to talk about. We talked about it endlessly. It was so important, that it had to be true. In other words, you couldn't satisfy yourself with a God who would just be a Valium for your fears, because that would be dishonorable. The God who just makes you less afraid of the dark is just a crutch.

So the idea is, use everything you have to search for God. But be very careful that you don't lie to yourself, because that's just spiritual narcissism. He was saying, "Be so rigorous, and so careful, and so clear-seeing that what we find will really be precious, because it will be the result of our most skeptical and rigorous searching."

For him, accepting the god of Spinoza, the god of Einstein, the sum total of the physical laws of the universe ... who could argue with that? Because nature does have physical laws that are knowable. But the intervening God who wants to punish, who wants to torture, who wants to wreak vengeance on the human beings that he's allegedly responsible for creating ... that concept was just untenable for Carl. And that's related in a very interesting way to the notion of extraterrestrials.

Q: That was the next question on my mind, because the book devotes a lot of attention to extraterrestrial intelligence, the idea of life elsewhere in the universe.

A: Because Carl thought it was part of the same question. Though he was interested in searching in that way, and it was a lifelong passion of his, to his credit, he would not allow himself to just accept the answer that he wanted. It had to be true. So, much to my sadness, he died without ever feeling that he found any credible evidence for the existence of extraterrestrial life. He knew the question was very much open, but he was very assiduous and circumspect in making sure that he didn't allow himself to believe something that he wanted to believe.

Q: Is there a sense that finding life elsewhere in the universe could act as a sort of "ground truth" for the way that the universe works? Some people might argue that you can start to triangulate, to get more than one perspective on those cosmic questions. Maybe that's why this question of extraterrestrial intelligence was so important to Carl.

A: Yes, because we live surrounded by mystery. We know so little. We're so ignorant. We've only been at the systematic inspection of nature for a mere 400 years. So of course we know very little. And that comes right back to the God question.

If most of the universe is completely unknown to us, then how can we presume to know the nature of how it came to be, and whether or not there was any kind of intelligence guiding creation? We don't see any evidence for that. And our desire to believe it is pretty much a transparent projection of the fact that we are mammals, and we have a long childhood, and as humans we are very dependent on our parents. That parental model of existence is really hard not to project on everything else. But who knows?

Since so much of the little science we know has turned out to be counterintuitive, it's crazy for us to presume, let alone kill another person because we think we know the answer.

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Comments

I find it interesting that Ms. Druyan, in the same way that most people sell God's power short in terms of the grandeur of the universe, sells God's power short in terms of having the ability and the desire to actively care about each individual person in the world. If His power of creation (whether it's in 7 days or 7 billion years) is great enough to create 400 billion star systems in perfect working order, why wouldn't His power of love and power of mind be able to individually care about each of the 6 billion people on earth (and however many trillions of other living things there are in the universe).
I find it tremendously exciting that these lectures by Carl are now being made available and look forward to obtaining them. He was truly an inspirational thinker and scientist who had a tremendous knack for simplifying complex subjects into laymans terms for people such as I. His childlike wonder and enthusiasm for science, reason, human thought processes and learning has been a lifelong inspiration for me. His passing 10 years ago was truly a sad day for me personally but he continues to motivate and inspire through the efforts of his beautiful wife Ann. We owe her a tremendous debt of gratitude for her tireless efforts to carry on her husband's legacy.
There is an excellent organization that presents the basis for a Creator. That website is called www.reasons.org The organization is named "Reasons to Believe" and the organization's founder is Dr. Hugh Ross an astrophysicist. Dr. Ross has an excellent book, "Creation as Science", which I recommend for those wanting to understand the creationist point of view. In fact, I would hope that you will add www.reasons.org as a hyperlink for the creationists point of view. There is an excellent FAQ page available at this website as well.
Along the lines of Dave's comment: It is not the Judeo-Christian view of God that is too small, but Ann Druyan's, who appears to believe that God has too much on His mind to worry about us. To get a handle on this: suppose the entire universe were downsized to the size of our bodies. A galaxy might correspond, say, to a single cell; the Earth to a single DNA nucleotide; and a person to a single subatomic particle. Now suppose that particle has the potential to disrupt the DNA, as a result of which the cell could turn cancerous. Would we not be concerned about that particle? Size doesn't determine something's importance. Having said that, I suspect the immense size of the universe was intended to awe us, as it did the author of Psalm 19--who marveled that God was nonetheless concerned about man. So yes, Ann, be awed at the universe, as many believers have been throughout the ages.
I am thankful to be able, through a written legacy, to still enjoy Carl Sagan's journeys through space/time and his wonder. And this is a most amazing interview as well. I am struck by how thoughtful and expressive Ann Druyan is in her own right. Thank you.
Mankind thru the ages and in every culture has invented some sort of god-identity; it is just a manifistation of our animal fear of being eaten.
I am going to have to obtain a copy of this work by Mr. Sagan. It could very well point to answers I have been looking for. I have long held that science and religion are not as separated as the current views would have us believe.
A fascinating and mind-opening read. As a baptist minister, I have always felt my efforts actually truncate the expansiveness of God. This piece confirms it. We may give God glory and praise, but we always fail when it comes to identifying and describing God. The key for a successful merging of science and religion, lies in the capacity to expand horizons and eradicate fears. Both science and religion must discover paths towards one another, in the name of God.
I have a Christian faith that was a long time and hard fought in coming. I had my long and strong period of atheism and I have always been fascinated by science in all of its forms. I attribute both the need for scientific explanation and religious faith to being natural facets of the human mind. We have learned so much, yet we know so very little about the nature of the universe, from the vast cosmos right down to the subatomic realm. The human mind will never stop seeking more knowledge, and those who seek to resist this thirst on any basis, religious or not, have no hope in succeeding. On the other hand, faith is driven by the human thirst for knowing, and it is an equally irresistable force. No amount of "proving", or inability to "prove", will ever stop these natural and unstoppable human drives. So, to my mind, it is not a worthwhile application of human intelligence to engage in philosophical battles trying to "prove" the other perspective to be wrong. All humans have to understand their universe in whatever limited way each can. What we truly need to come to terms with, though, is that this tiny speck of dust we live on is becoming rapidly overwhelmed by the teeming masses and runaway technology we have unleashed upon it. Sometime in the foreseable future the earth is going to "sneeze" and eliminate these irritants known as humankind. The earth will continue, as will the universe, but the human species, just as the dinosaurs, has only a marginal chance of continuing. Faith in God gives some comfort to those of us who have no real faith in humanity.
I always thought that God and science intersected at the point of personal introspection. Given the limitations of our senses, we should, I think, be willing to accept the fact that our capacity for reason does not automatically convey the ability to determine what is reasonable. As we approach an age where the notion of a universal theory of everything is not so unimaginable, isn't it also possible that we simply lack the 'perspective' to embrace the totality of the universe conceptually? A person who can do that would have to exist 'outside' our reality, no? Our ancestors have embedded within our collective minds, several universal truths, as Joseph Campbell would say. I, for one, am not inclined to immediately abandon the notion of a God, simply because it's too big to reconcile with my notions of morality or purpose
Humans have had Gods for everything we couldn't understand. We no longer worship the Gods we created, like sun Gods, fire Gods, and so on. Life and death, That is what the current Gods represent, which also happens to be what we fear and understand the least. I personally think that there may be God like beings, because we just have reached their level of understanding, but could never beleive in the Gods that current religions have created.
I find it sad that for so long, men of science were often men of faith, and that in recent times this wall if division has been pushing science and faith apart. Both scientists and the religious are truth-seekers, or should be. Christians need to get back into science. I find it interesting that Ann says there is no evidence of any kind of intelligence guiding creation, when the codes and patterns of our genes so closely resemble a written language. If such messages were to reach us in a form emanated from outer space, they would be received as proof of extraterrestrial intelligent life elsewhere in the universe.
"Faith in God gives some comfort to those of us who have no real faith in humanity.” Well said, Dave Snider. I don't have faith in God because of how humanity has turned the very idea of God into a concept that breeds war and "my way or the highway" mentality. But I do understand where you are coming from in that statement. I feel very similar about Carl Sagan to the way you do about God. His writings give me comfort that humanity is not lost and there are rational thinking people that can look beyond our violent traditions and into human knowledge itself. His lectures are more relevant now then they were in 1985 given the conflict between religion and science happening in the present.
I find it disheartening that so many Christians reject science that supposedly conflicts with their faith. They should find some middle ground and try to follow both. In a way, both support one another. I personally am an atheist, but science and faith are more reconcilable than people like to admit. You can easily conclude that god created the universe and life through the natural and elegant processes revealed by science. Apply your won belief system to it all... no crime against that. As Carl Sagan himself said: "How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, 'This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed'? Instead they say, 'No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.'"
Yea verily yea! let us go forward with open hearts and open calculators, processors and pentacles, prostrate at the pedestal base of infinite knowledge and let us learn! Let us grow! Let us become the sum of truth in its multitude dimensions! Amen.
As a scientist and a Christian, I do not see a conflict between the two. As Ms.Druyan mentioned, the serious study of science and of the universe was initiated primarily by Christians who understood that if God created the universe, then it would be ordered and knowable... and therefore the study of science on all levels would lead to a greater understanding and appreciation of the Creator as well. Looking at distant galaxies thorugh my telescope gives me not only a sense of awe at the amazing enormity, beauty and complexity of the universe, but also a glimpse of the awesomeness of the God who created it all (as well as a humble perspective regarding my relationship to Him). It says in the bible (Romans 1:19-20) regarding our knowledge of God "that which is known about God is evident within them (us), for since creation His invisible attributes, eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood through that which has been made." As Ms. Druyan also indicated, we are a long way from understanding all of nature through science. Therefore we are also a long way from understanding God, who created and transcends nature. The ultimate proof for me though came not from looking outward, but inward. The very ability to reason and to be inspired to awe, to love, to recognize beauty, to have compassion, all speak of something greater than ourselves. The existence of a spirit within us is something that cannot be explained by elaborate combinations of amino acids and any amount of time and cosmic chance. The deep yearning within ourselves to seek truth and yearn for a connection to something or someone that transcends our own apparent mortality is universal. Given our limited understanding of the natural universe, which is finite, we are unlikely to come to a full understanding of God, who is infinite. Fortunately, He desires to reveal Himself to us. "You will seek me and find me when you search for me with all your heart (Jer 29:13)".
Carl Sagan was a man and a true scientist. I felt a great loss when he passed away. As an atheist, I will always remember his response on one of the talk shows, when ask "Do you believe in God?" and his most intelligent response, "If you take all of the physical laws of the universe and consider them God, Yes." I think it was pretty much word for word and I thought, If the people of this world would open up and look and believe in what they see and how science if trying open our eyes to the ultimate reality, What a UTOPIA we may just realize.
At this time Sagan and Gould have been my favorite science writers. Can you provide more information about their relationship?
Carl Sagan was a man of true wisdom and vision. His passing was a great loss for us all but his words will be with us always. If only people would take off their blinders of religion and see the truth in his writings. People who believe in religion, ghosts, astrology, bigfoot, alien abductions, devils and all other sorts of nonsense should read Sagans book, The Demon Haunted World. I am an agnostic. I don't think it is possible for the human mind to know if there is or isn't a God. Yes, you can believe or not believe, but you can never know, and people who say they know have not evolved beyond the scared, ignorant, superstitious humans of thousands of years ago. Carl said, "Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." I agree.
I definitely plan to find this book. I'd also recommend Sagan's book 'The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark' to anyone who hasn't read it yet.

Religion is a big part of my life, always has been, but I had a lot of questions.  I now know that science and religion go hand in hand.  When I read the comments I remember I had the same questions, but now they are answered. Yes there are answers out there.  Our finite minds want to complicate everything.  Many of the early Christian writers  talk about how the prophets, such as Abraham and Moses were  given the information as to the creation of this earth, and the knowledge that many more earths exist for the testing and trial of God's children and pass away as the tests are completed.

Science has determined that galaxies are stacked one upon another, until they cannot be counted.  God said to his prophets: "My work and my glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." That's quite a concept. But for our testing  and advancement each earth & those that populate it  are quaranteened for a time, as are millions or billions of other earths that are testing grounds for the Lord's children - its not essential that we know everything right now, as our tests on this earth are to develop in ways that we could not develop before we came here. We had a lot of knowledge in a pre-existent life,  even about the galaxies, and it will be restored to us -  but having had that knowledge, it  is not absolutely necessry  we review it at this particular time, although it is interesting.  Our tests are more basic, to find out who the Lord can trust in an environment where we don't have perfect knowledge, and one of those tests require that we learn faith - that is the element that most of these people seem to overlook.

There is a writer called Hugh Nibley, who has written about 10-12 books. He died this last year, but he had an incredible grasp on what is called "The Great Plan of Salvation" which God, our Heavenly Father presented to all of us before this earth for radification and implimentation. I watched the history channel the other night and a Christian and a Rabbi both expressed the knowledge (from their ancient writings) that what I have said is true - that these things and other things have been lost, and are now being restored in huge libraries of information coming forth from the Middle East, which support the Bible, but which give more information to answer the so called big questions about God.) Hugh Nibley knew multiple ancient languages, and he researched them in depth for years and years. His criteria for truth was - if, lets say a hundred or more out of the multitude of papers, and papri, etc he researched said virtually the same thing then we have some truth out there. And that's simplifying it.  However, his book called "The Old Testament and Related Studies," is incredible - I found that by reading it and marking it that amazing information could be gleaned from it about God and the cosmos. Where man came from, why he is here and where he is going. Nibley was an individualist, and he was also a part of organized religion, but was no finatic.  His books are a little deep but they are understandable because they are for the seeker of truth.  

After years of education, continued reading in the sciences, i.e. archaeology, biology especially, I had come to the conclusion that my early love affair with the Christian religion was flawed. However, during a time of great crisis in my life, I returned to my beginnings and started studying about Jesus Christ. Sometimes I felt oddly like a castoff from the scientific field, but the joy and peace that I have obtained through my beliefs and studies have been reassuring. "The Lord God made them all."
I grew up as a Christian Fundamentalist. Walking away from my faith was the most difficult and rewarding thing that I ever did. One of the books that convinced me was Carl Sagan's "Demon Haunted World" . I wish that he had been alive when I read the book. I would so like to tell him how much his reasoning meant to me.
I'm sure Carl would be pleased that he has turned peoples hearts away from God. I'm sure Ann Druyan is too but I pray something will open her heart to God while there is time. It is too late for Carl.


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