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Mariana Ruiz Villareal
An artist's conception shows a pair of Alamosaurus sanjuanensis dinosaurs.
Here's a trivia question for your dino-crazy kids: What's the biggest dinosaur to roam North America? Paleontologists report that it's Alamosaurus sanjuanensis, one of many breeds of long-necked, long-tailed sauropods to roam the continent 69 million years ago.
Montana State University's Denver Fowler and the State Museum of Pennsylvania's Robert Sullivan make that judgment on the basis of two huge vertebrae and a femur that they collected in New Mexico between 2003 and 2006. Based on the bones' proportions, they figure that Alamosaurus could be around the same size as South America's giant sauropods, such as the 70-ton Argentinosaurus.
If Fowler and Sullivan are correct, that'd make Alamosaurus twice as heavy as paleontologists thought it was just a few years ago. Their research was published Tuesday in Acta Palaeontologica Polonica.
"Over the past 20 years, Argentinean and Brazilian paleontologists have been unearthing bigger and bigger dinosaurs, putting the rest of the world in the shade," Fowler said in an MSU news release issued Tuesday. "However, our new finds not only show that Alamosaurus is newly recognized as the biggest dinosaur from North America, but also that it was right up there with the biggest South American species: The U.S. is back in the fight for the No.1 spot."
There's more at stake here than mere bragging rights. "Our findings show that Alamosaurus was originally described based on immature material, and this is a problem, as characteristics that define a species are typically only fully gained at adult size," said Fowler, a doctoral student at MSU's Museum of the Rockies. "This means that we might be misinterpreting the relationships of Alamosaurus and possibly other sauropod dinosaurs too."
Researchers from MSU and the Pennsylvania museum are continuing to collect Alamosaurus bones to resolve the size question as well as other details about the dinosaurs' life and death. To keep up with the research — and perhaps eventually find out whether Alamosaurus pushes aside Argentinosaurus and its Russian rival, Ruyangosaurus, check in with the Facebook page for the Horner Paleo Lab at the Museum of the Rockies. You can also check out this video about the Alamosaurus quest:
Never-before-seen dinosaur fossils will go on exhibit when a new science museum opens in Dallas in 2013. KXAS-TV's Julie Tam reports.
Alan Boyle is msnbc.com's science editor. Connect with the Cosmic Log community by "liking" the log's Facebook page, following @b0yle on Twitter and adding the Cosmic Log page to your Google+ presence. You can also check out "The Case for Pluto," my book about the controversial dwarf planet and the search for new worlds.
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We need to find more fossils.
Does anyone know if a complete or near complete skeleton has been found for this?
I have a complete skeleton in the backyard. The kids use it for a jungle gym. I had thought of donating it to science, but the kids just love it so much...
ALAMO?-saurus? Really? Sanjuan?nensis? Why not go all the way and call it "Sanjacinto-sensis"?
Sheesh.
Are we sure this report wasn't taken from one of science textbooks they have re-written in Texas to support their own peculiar mythology?
I'm thinking this must be a joke, right? C'mon, tell me it's a joke. Haha, good one. Joke? right?
Alamosaurus
...never forget
I'm using one of the fossils as the framework to expand my dining room another 100 square feet.
You know what they say about houses with old frames...good bones
What ever happened to Brontosaurus from elementary school dinosaur lessons? Wasnt that the largest ever?
Though rare, they do sometimes find a near complete skeleton.
Cygnus, it is now known as Apatosaurus. And they are not close to the biggest anymore.
@Tony in Dallas, don't bring facts or science into this discussion. The dinosaurs were here just a few thousand years ago, surely not millions, because that doesn't fit the timelines of certain religious texts.
Sorry.
So, when did Zeus create the world?
This story is ridiculous and impossible since everyone knows the Earth was created 6,000 years ago. Don't believe me, just read your Bible. <joke>
@joe
So true. We used to ride these dinosaurs at the county fair. Global warming and pollution ultimately led to their demise. My family still has a collar they used when going for walks. Now we use it as a hoola hoop. We still have family pictures and miss "fluffy" so much.
I thought they were eating the Unicorns and missed the Ark?
Nowhere does the Bible state that the Earth (much less the Universe) is 6,000 years old, or any other age for that matter. For that, you can blame Bishop Ussher (d. 1656).
No, there's been no complete skeleton yet. There rarely are. A fully complete skeleton of a large dinosaur is very, very, very rare since the carcasses were scavenged by other large dinosaurs - let's face it, a dead dinosaur in the hot sun is pretty easy for a scavenger to find - and those that died by drowning usually came apart as they decomposed in the water, were tumbled by currents, and settled into the mud in pieces.
Yep. The remains of anything that's left dead in the wild will get eaten and disseminated. They can't even find the complete skeleton of a murder victim that's been in a field for a month. It's no surprise a complete skeleton hasn't been found of something that's been dead for thousands of years.
THX, I assume you meant millions of years. We're talking about a dinosaur here, afterall. :-)
This is nothing more than a hoax devised by scientists to turn us into godless communists. Dinosaurs didn't exist, because the world is 6,000 years old.
That joke was aready done. See #2
It isn't a joke, my child, it is Truth.
Toasty please stick to the Belief articles. Your statements are complete unfounded and add nothing to discussions related to this article.
Dinosaurs DO EXIST!
THERE'S SO MUCH PROOF!
^_^
OOhhh NOOO! Not Toasty! Turn away from the light Toasty! Quick someone open up The Orgins of Species and start on page 5!
The power of logic compels you! The power of logic compels you!
:D
Wow the world is only 6000 years Old ? More like man didn't learn to create a written language until 6000 years ago . Everyone knows that Human as a species is over 27,000 years old and that is only the brief history of modern man . Neanderthal man was here for 47,000 years before modern man first appeared.
I suppose god created Dino bones just to screw with modern scientists . So lets say someone found a triceratops 4000 years ago . They look a lot like demons to me ... I wonder ...... Could it be that they made up god to explain why they found huge bones that looks like a demon?
We have proof of Dino's, let see you prove the earth is only 6000 years old . Oh by the way the bible is a book , and only a book . Written by oh lets say 60 people and translated maybe 5 or 6 times , half of it is translated wrong . Now if you can find the first written copy of the bible , I might consider your argument .
At our town fair every year , there is a little side show that proudly displays a sign that says Noah brought dinosaurs over on the ark , if so why aren't there any dinosaurs left ? Why has there been no records of this event ? What did Noah do with them ? Eat them ? They even have a short film on this subject . It's ridiculous .
Gosh, I thought America's biggest dinosaur was the current Republican party.
Sorry, I find reading these comments enlightening (I'm humor and reality deprived), so don't mind me if I un-intelligently contribute: "ROFLCOPTER" this remark wins my Make my Day award.
The most interesting thing to me is that most of the species that lived have left no fossil record. Our entire fossil record, spanning over three billion years, only contains a tiny fraction of the species that have lived in the earth.
Also...
It's funny that to counter the religious freaks, many of the comments I see on science articles aren't commenting on the content of the article, but the religious freaks. Is that the first thing you think of when you read science articles? It is childish... about as childish as the religious nuts telling everyone that they need Jesus in their lives or that Leviticus commands gays to be stoned.
Can you imagine what the human fossil record will look like a few billion years after we blow ourselves up and the Earth reclaims the land? Imagine our tiny selves. There are way too many natural phenomena that can explain why we don't see these huge beasts pop up every where left and right any why complete skeletons don't just remain 100% intact. It shouldn't take a stretch of imagination to conclude that the main factors would be the changing of the Earth surface over the millenia and the sheer expanse of it all. In order for the finds to be as repeatable and as complete as those found in many of Denver's backyards (an example) you'd have to have a high concentration of these beasts existing in the same area at the same time and dieing at the same time and place. Given the size of these beasts, this would seem unlikely grazing grounds must have been immense!
Actually the Religious Right thinks "The Flintstones" is a documentary.
They are even going to have a themepark!
HAHAHAH!
Can you imagine if the federal government didn't mandate education standards what sorts of asinine information kids would be fed in places like Kansas and Kentucky?
States' Rights, baby! Yeah!
Oh please save me oh wonderful and all mighty federal government! Please tell me how to think and how to live! We would be lost with out you big brother because we are nothing but helpless chumps! LMAO
Joe125
Big brother for you lives in your head, it called paranoia.
For the rest of us the government has a job and purpose, to regulate fat cats from having all the say and do.
They regulate them back into human beings, not robber
baboonsbarons.But some still pretend they are god or king, or they are the example of a healthy economy, ........ and they are still waiting to be trickled on just to prove it.
Chris D
That is what you think the role of government is? Really? How about upholding the rule of law. If they had been doing that for the last century or so we wouldn't be seeing these "fat cats" get way with what they do. Fraud has been illegal as far back as I can remember.
Now back to the point. If you think that being self reliant and not expecting the government to do my thinking for me is paranoia then you are in a sad state of mind my friend. Either that or you don't know what paranoia means.
When people say the Universe is 6000 years old, I tell them that can be disproved by simply looking at the stars at night. They are millions of light years away... how can it be the universe is 6k years old when the light from the stars took millions/billions of years to reach us?? Either dead silence or one argument i heard was that the speed of light actually was a lot faster in the past then it is now, so the light was able to get here sooner! right, ok...
Harold,
When GOD, created the universe and said let there be light, the light of the stars was created as though they had always been there. Praise be to GOD.
At least that is the version that I have heard. I've then tried to explain to the person that requires a god who is a deceiver. That doesn't work either. Minds, that are seriously infected with religion or other meme, cannot think in a manner which contradicts the meme.
The finding of an intact femur certainly helped in determining the maximum possible weight of Alamosaurus sanjuanensis. The cross section area and bone density would put an upper limit on the possible weight that the leg could bear.
I find it's better to just avoid debating with people who are capable of the kinds of mental gymnastics it takes to believe such nonsense given today's information and ability to measure these phenomena quite reliably.
They don't even get the joke regarding the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the Orbiting Teapot analogies, they've chosen to buy into an arbitrary and unprovable explanation against all other equally arbitrary and unprovable explanations, and they don't see the irony in it.
At this point, I just laugh, and then try to figure out how I can make anywhere close to as much money off of their willful ignorance as their religious institutions do! What a customer!
Actually, it really is pointless to debate them. There is no evidence to convince them to change their belief. This is to be expected on faith-based world views. Science, on the other hand, is evidence based and therefore allows and even requires changes based on new observations.
I really don't have a problem with creationists, as long as they call it what it is: a religious philosophy. My problem is when they try to teach it as science.
We have mosquitos so big in Minnesota that they have been mistaken for 747's, please be careful out there.
The above remark may be a slight exageration.
The whole "which sauropod is bigger" argument is a non-starter, since size estimates for each species rely only on a few (and in some cases, one) example. It's comparable to asking which humans are bigger, those in New York or those in Los Angeles. You'd need a minimum of a few hundred complete specimens of each, collected from different localities, to even begin to make a reasonable estimate of relative sizes. But it makes for easy science article headlines.
While that is true when you're arguing down to the centimeter and only looking from a single species with no known relatives.
But we have plenty of more complete specimens of relatives of these sauropods in the same family, and we can extrapolate data based on the ratios of sizes of complete bones against the proportions of other more complete specimens in the same family to get a general idea.
Thus, because we have a complete femur, and we know that ratio of the femur to the total leg-size of its nearest relative is x, we can therefore extrapolate the average size of the animal based on the proportions of its nearest relative.
Sure, there will be variations in size as we find more examples of the same species, but like most things in nature, they follow a normal distribution, just as human height does. And with a greater number of samples, we can be more confident that our sample mean more closely falls within 2 standard deviations from the population mean.
It's not the size of the dinosaur, it's how they swish their tails.
Nasty
Holy crap the lies and hoaxes just keep getting bigger!! You would think the scientists would tire of making fake dinosaurs as a joke but it apparently has become a life long hobby for some-- like making crop circles! And faking moon shots! Don't get me started there!
Gladly!
Please don't start
Fundamentalist check list: Please answer yes or no to the following to see if you are one
Dinosaurs are a cruel hoax perpetrated by scientists so they can cast doubt on Genesis ( gotta keep it relevant) and poison our kid's minds against the Bible!
Crop circles are real and caused by satanic alien cults
The universe circles the Earth, chosen by God to be the sole repository of life among 100 billion squared solar systems
Paul Bunyan was real and did God's work when He created the Earth. And they forgot the part of how he dug out the Grand canyon in 1, 24hr day. God's Civil Engineer he was! Somehow he was left out of the old testament, when clearly Paul B should be in the Genesis chapter. Yet a lesser Jonah and the whale story made it?
If I am widowed and remarry I get to have two wives in heaven polygamy style-- assuming we are all deemed good enough to be in the Club with Gabriel as the gate guard
The ability to grasp a rattlesnake before it has a chance to strike is a GOOD skill to know!
Please refrain from Christian bashing, since your opinions are based on an outspoken minority of the faith (who do have a right to their opinion, even if I disagree).
I am a Christian and I believe that dinosaurs roamed the earth millions of years ago. I also believe that evolution is an accurate theory of the mechanics of species change. I have studied the Bible and I do not find that the ideas are mutually exclusive. The early portion of Genesis, when boiled down, basically says " you were created, along with the rest of the Earth." It leaves the mechanics of how to an absolute minimum, since we obviously will begin to understand some of the mechanics ourselves in due time. I also do not hate gay people (that's for you, Republic!), nor do I find that shunning and shaming them is in accordance with Christianity.
Oh, I like dinosaurs. I like them a lot. I like them even more without unnecessary Christian-bashing. I'm sorry that those that are solely interested in dinosaurs have to see my post; but, I'd like to read about dinosaurs in peace. Just as gay people would like to walk down the street without one of those animals from the Westboro Baptist Church (who are not Christian by meaning of the word) screaming at them.
I'm fine with everyone being able to have their own beliefs (no matter how irrational or circular they may be), right up until they use those those beliefs to justify legislation that effects everyone else and goes against rational and sound-judgment.
Fundamentalist Christians are no minority, they make up a LARGE voting contingent within the Republican party, and besides being at least 50% of the reason why the GOP doesn't have a candidate that is even remotely likely to replace Obama in office, this same group has a profound affect on legislative practices, public investment in science and education, and sponsors many bills that are both invasive to people's privacy and personal liberties.
Fundamentalist Christians deserve to be a target on these matters because of the level of influence they've attained and ambitions that they have. These are people that should not be ignored.
Therefore while it may upset you that people bash closely held beliefs of yours, you are vicariously associated with a party that willfully embraces ignorance and not just longs for, but actively strives to revisit a darker time in history where human civilization reflected something closer to Taliban-ruled Afghanistan.
moderate_christian
Just think, you one step away from reality.
Just lose the sheep herders book and you too can join the 21st century.
Chris, that was wholeheartedly unnecessary, judgemental and rude. You give atheists and/or agnostics a bad name. People like you are not one jot better than religious types who try to push their beliefs on others and condemn them for not having faith. How ironic that you think you are better than them!
Moderate_Christian's comment was even-handed, well thought-out and articulately communicated -- and he/she managed to do it without insulting anyone. The same cannot be said for you.
Seriously?, for the most part I have enjoyed your comments today, but you went too far with this one. Extreme fundamentalists are a minority of those who would identify themselves as Christians, but an unfortunately vocal and disproportionately influential minority. Even if they were a majority, their numbers should not condemn the moderates by association. And your claim that any Christian is guilty of the crimes (yes, crimes -- I think they have much to answer for, too) of extreme fundamentalists because they share a at least some basis of a belief system is seriously flawed. Extreme fundamentalists are a problem. They do need to be stopped. I have no problem with jokes and/or outright arguing with such extremist or attacking their outlandish views. Moderate_Christian is clearly not one of them and, I would suspect, would be willing to be on your side in the fight, if you let him/her. This individual does not deserve to be attacked by you or anyone else based on the issues you have with fundamentalist Christian extremists. Why alienate the potential allies you could have among moderate Christians who dislike the fundamentalists as much as you do? Guilt by association is ludicrous. That's like saying some Americans are real SOBs out to get everything they can for themselves at the expense of those around them (which is undeniably true), so all Americans are evil. Some advice: Let go of some of your own extremism, it will do you good.
Religious faith in and of itself is not a problem. i disagree with it in regards to the traditional view of creation. The idea that something can be created out of nothing by an intelligent being, is something that must be taken by faith. Cannot be proved or disproved by science. Therefore, it has no reason to be taught in scince classes to vulnerable minds. Teach it as one of many philosophies of how matter originated, but do not teach it as science.
So I got no problem with Moderate_Christian's view. Unfortunately, though, Moderate seems to be in the minority.
Guess I can't win them all ^_^
I'm not attacking moderate_christian, but I am pointing out the concerns I and many others share with regard to the Christian Fundamentalists and others with similar mentalities and ambitions.
Man I hope so, but for a small group without a whole lot of wealth, they seem to have a disproportionally tight grasp over the GOP...I'd contend that they are more numerous than you'd care to accept. But then again, I'm hard-pressed to underestimate such a group.
I'm not attributing guilt by association, I guess my wording was wrong.
I'm not accusing Moderate of trying to push for the same oppressive and invasive laws that the Fundamentalists strive for. I'm merely saying that because Moderate and Fundamentalists share the same basic core beliefs, Moderate is bound to be offended by the criticisms thrown back at that direction by virtue of a similar core belief structure.
It was a poor attempt on my part, but I was trying to allude that our comments and those like ours are not directed personally towards her or Christianity, but as a response against those who want to impose religious ideology through legislation and act as though a particular creation philosophy is now rooted in fact and is scientifically testable.
saddened-1829725
You confuse God and Religion, I don't.
They share nothing in common.
@ Chris D-4324837
Ah! Very good point!
How did they get that and all the others on the ark?
Clearly God(tm) also showed Moses how to build a shrink ray.
So far...in terms of high tech inventory.
Noah had:
They could have caught some diseases from the animals afterwards, especially the syphilis and gonorrhea.
That's true! Like Anthrax
Ah, fond memories of castle Anthrax.
Seriously,
I think you covered it all.
math proof of god( really short version-1 page- to get you interested)
onision.net/index.php?/topic/41844-math-proof-of-god-really-really-short-version/page__fromsearch__1
math proof of god (short version)
onision.net/index.php?/topic/41841-math-proof-of-god-short-version-update-all-youtube-videos-now-from-regular-site/page__fromsearch__1
math proof of god (normal version)
www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1616159/pg1
a response to a set of objections
onision.net/index.php?/topic/42010-math-proof-for-cleb-answered-your-new-questions/page__fromsearch__1
A lot of evidence is provided in these documents--the second link, that shows how science is agreeing with these assessments.
Many respectable scientists and mathematicians, such as stephen wolfram, have also suggested this.
Many others object to the idea of a computation based universe due to
quantum computers, postulating that if a universe can allow for such a
computer, the universe would need to allow the computer to have a whole
other universe just to exist---I think this is wrong because even though
the quantum computer can simulate more information than all the
particles in the universe, as a higher level of complexity, it cannot
simulate anything higher, which the universe does. However, if this
trajectory of complexity were continued, such as the omega point
concept, you would get to a point of infinite complexity where the
universe and computer would both merge, being able to simulate the same
thing as it is simulating on the very wave function of the universe
itself.
If this indeed pans out, we may be able to tap into reality with our
mind and control it---I pose a simple thought experiment for this: in
any game ,if you know the optimum strategy it becomes meaningless to
play--like tic tac toe...perhaps this seperation we have of 'outside'
and 'inside' is what is causing our problems in physics...by behaving
and realizing the source code in the same way that 'reality ' does, we
then are functionally and on an information level, the same thing. Think
of 'Robert Heinlein's' 'groking...
with enough thought sharing between two people, if such were possible,
they would evcentually become one mind. Similarly, it is not irational
to assume that the more knowledge we attain of the universe the more we
will be able to manipulate it to such an extent that we merge with
it...like a computer program.
every trime we know more about biology or any other discipline, our
ability to control our environment increases. It makes sense that
eventually we will be able to control reality itself--the energy
requirement to do so decreases when you realize that intelligence is
just an energy efficiency function---the more intelligent we become as
we approach something like the singularity, the more of a 'cataylst; we
will be to any desired action with the level of energy required a
minimum, because the universe is essentially information.
The ultimate end then, will be our merging with it. That is the end
point of science ,as empiricism and tautological mathematical thought
merge.
People are doing a lot of bashing of evolution-deniers on here, considering that no evolution-deniers have actually commented yet.
It's important to stretch and get the muscles warmed up so you don't cramp or injure yourself
Seriously,
Have you ever seen a cheetah, lion or crocodile stretch before it made a kill? This is more like cubs playing to learn how to kill. "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: For..." I am the meanest S.O.B. in the valley.
I've always wondered where all the fossils disappeared to and why there aren't more of them. If anyone has an explanation for that, I'd love to hear it. I just assumed they turned into fossil fuels...? I think it's incredible science is capable of extrapolating evidence and deducing what something could have looked like relative to size and mass from a femur bone. Math and science are incredible when you realize they can be used this way!
On a different note, unrelated to the article but very discussed by everyone in the comments section; science and Christianity are two very separate subjects and should not try to speak into the other. They go hand-in-hand and should coexist but NEVER dictate each other! Science, by definition is the study of things based on evidence gathered and because of this has NOTHING to say about Christianity/religion in general. If you consider yourself a scientist don't waste your time arguing with anyone about religion, you lose your credibility in doing so - especially when you begin arguments by using words like "fact". Likewise, if you consider yourself a Christian, don't waste your breath trying to disprove science because when you begin the walk down that path you become like all the rest of those who've played the fool before you (think Copernicus or Galileo).
Religion at its base is philosophy and no one would walk into a philosophy class expecting to get a lesson on genetics so why should religion, regardless of sect, be any different? I also don't go to science class expecting to be told what happened pre-big-bang and would leave if my instructor had ever tried to prove that to me.
Why can't people get past the he said, she said stuff and appreciate what science and philosophy have to offer without trying to show why either is superior? Grow up!
One old fossil named Pat Roberts denies the Holocaust and the existence of dinosaurs too. And to think he advised a president and actually ran for the office once upon a time...
I would never vote for Pat Robertson nor would I vote for Jesse Jackson.
I do enjoy some of the amazing rantings of Pat Robertson! Jon Stuart did a hilarious bit just a few weeks ago where he compiled a bunch of Pat's insane rantings.
The one where the Haitians had their earthquake because they made a deal with the Devil to be free of French rule is hilarious!
I especially love that Pat asserted "True Story" at the end...obviously he must have proof! Or is that something else that people should just take on blind faith?
The scary thing is that occasionally Pat Robertson makes real sense. His comments on Alzheimer's is/was quite accurate. I have a mother-in-law with severe Alzheimer's. Mentally, she is gone. I haven't voted for a winner in a presidential election since Bill Clinton in 1992. Of course I rarely vote for a D or R unless they are particularly good.
Are you serious? another "mine is bigger than yours argument" Oh why not. OK you serious people , I'm kidding...
The world is older than 6000 years I know I felt over that when I went to get out of bed this morning.........................